The Corporate Director Podcast

Episode: Inside Wall Street Journal's Top 250 Directors List
Date: July 9, 2025
Host: Dottie Schindlinger (Executive Director, Diligent Institute)
Co-Host: Megan Day (Strategy Leader, Diligent)
Guest: Alan Murray (Founding President, Wall Street Journal Leadership Institute; former CEO, Fortune Media)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the making of the Wall Street Journal’s Top 250 Public Company Directors list, co-produced with Diligent and Bendable Labs. Host Dottie Schindlinger and Megan Day discuss current governance trends, before welcoming Alan Murray to dive into the thinking and data behind the list, qualities that make for top-tier board directors, and how boardroom expectations are evolving in a tech-driven, high-stakes world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rise of ‘No Vote’ Campaigns and Board Accountability

[01:56–05:37]

• No Vote Trends: No vote campaigns are increasingly common, moving beyond rare, “nuclear option” status. In 2025’s proxy season, there were over 40 noted instances, including a high-profile lead director ouster at Netflix—sometimes for issues like attendance rather than poor performance.
• Drivers: Shareholder actions are increasingly driven by factors such as executive pay disagreements, lack of responsiveness, and ESG concerns.
• Universal Proxy Card Impact: The “universal proxy card” now enables shareholders to target individual directors for votes, rather than accepting or rejecting an entire slate. This offers a surgical accountability mechanism and empowers activists.

“Shareholders are paying a lot more attention to the goings on of individual directors... They can be much more selective. And that gives them a new tool, particularly... shareholder activists.”
—Dottie Schindlinger [03:02]

• Director Approval Shift: Average approval rates for directors are slowly declining (previously ~97%)—not because the majority are voted out, but because targeted votes are more common.
• Job Difficulty: Being a good director is only becoming more challenging as scrutiny and expectations rise.

2. Introducing the WSJ Top 250 Directors Report

[06:57–08:46]

• Alan Murray Introduction: Alan shares highlights from his career in journalism and leadership, spanning The Wall Street Journal, CNBC, and Fortune.
• Purpose of the List: The past five years have been marked by unprecedented pace of change in business, from the pandemic to geopolitical events and the rise of generative AI. This calls for continuous, peer-based learning—especially among those at the top.

“The pace of change in business is just unprecedented... It creates a continuous learning challenge for all of us, but particularly for the people who lead large organizations.”
—Alan Murray [08:46]

3. Methodology Behind the Top 250 Directors List

[09:52–11:17]

• Data-Driven Approach: The ranking began with company performance, then assessed director roles (e.g., leading key committees, serving on multiple large boards).
• Bendable Labs’ Algorithm: Heavily based on Peter Drucker’s management principles and WSJ’s “250 Best Managed Companies” ranking.
• No Editorial Bias: 100% data-driven; no subjective overrides.

“It was... 100% data driven. There was no editorial thumb on the scale. We came up with the criteria and then we let the data tell us where to go.”
—Alan Murray [10:18]

4. What Makes a Great Director?

[11:17–14:36]

• Director Role Evolution: Once seen as cushy, top company directorships now demand rapid adaptation, oversight on CEO tenure, and broad knowledge in tumultuous times.
• Peer Learning: The new Directors Council enables directors to collaboratively tackle emerging risks (e.g., AI, geopolitics), promoting shared learning.

“Directors are the ultimate humans in the loop... when things aren’t running smoothly, they’re the ones who have to have the judgment and the courage to step in.”
—Alan Murray [16:58]

5. Assessing and Measuring Director Quality

[14:36–18:47]

• Limitations of Data: Objective indicators (e.g., involvement in lawsuits) are useful but fail to capture intangible qualities like courage and judgment.
• Prominence vs. Quality: The algorithm identifies “powerful and prominent” directors, but not necessarily the best. Case studies (e.g., Tesla’s board) highlight how performance can be hard to quantify.
• Common Misconceptions: There’s an over-reliance on former CEOs as directors, which can limit board diversity and perspectives. Instead, focus should be on judgment, courage, humility, and experience.

6. Technology and the Future of Boardrooms

[19:13–20:24 | 24:57–25:15]

• AI’s Impact: Boards must balance AI risk and opportunity, staying informed enough to ask the right questions while not necessarily becoming experts.
• AI Tools for Boards: AI tools like Diligent and others are already assisting with boardroom tasks. Murray predicts AI will be a defining feature of the boardroom in 10 years.

“The use of AI to answer questions, provide guidance, provide the first round recommendations is increasing so fast, and that will... transform boardrooms.”
—Alan Murray [24:57]

7. Shifting Skills and Board Expectations

[20:24–22:14]

• CEO tenures used to be safe, but activism and business scandals have made them vulnerable.
• Boards once sought to fill every skill with an “expert,” but modern challenges require well-rounded, worldly directors with broad experience rather than specialists in every niche.

8. CEO-Board Dynamics & Board Effectiveness

[22:14–24:06]

• Data Point: Only 35% of C-suite executives believe their boards are doing a good/excellent job (historic low); 93% think at least one director should be replaced.
• CEO Attitude: Some CEOs view the board as a threat and prefer less challenging directors, while smart CEOs leverage the board as an asset.

9. Key Takeaway: The Importance of Asking Tough Questions

[24:06–24:35]

• Murray emphasizes the importance of directors who ask hard questions—often missing in real-world boardrooms.

“What I would be looking for is people who are willing to ask the tough questions. I mean, to me, that’s qualification number one.”
—Alan Murray [24:06]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On what’s required of directors today:
  “It requires much more knowledge about a wider array of things than it did 10, 20, 30 years ago.”
  —Alan Murray [11:38]

• On current director challenges:
  “Every road points to the same direction for me. And that is it’s getting harder to be a good director. It’s just getting harder and harder.”
  —Dottie Schindlinger [04:34]

• On the limitations of data for judging directors:
  “There are moments where director quality is less about expertise, less about background or training, more about... courage and the judgment to do what needs to be done to get companies back on track.”
  —Alan Murray [15:09]

• On boardroom courage and empathy:
  “There’s a lot of pressure to just not say something when nobody else is speaking up… We all want to believe we’re going to be the person that runs into the burning building… and in the moment, it’s really hard.”
  —Dottie Schindlinger [29:26]

Timestamps of Key Segments

• No Vote Campaigns and Accountability: [01:56–05:57]
• Alan Murray Introduction: [06:57–07:34]
• Origin & Purpose of the Top 250 List: [08:46–09:52]
• Methodology Explained: [09:52–11:17]
• What Makes a Great Director: [11:17–14:36]
• Peer Learning via Directors Council: [13:18–14:36]
• Measuring Director Quality & Data Limitations: [14:36–18:47]
• Misconceptions About Director Background: [16:45–18:47]
• AI’s Influence in Boardrooms: [19:13–20:24]
• Evolution of Board Skills Needed: [20:24–22:14]
• CEO-Board Relations & Effectiveness Stats: [22:14–24:06]
• Crucial Role of Asking Tough Questions: [24:06–24:35]
• Lightning Round (Future & Passions): [24:57–27:05]
• Empathy, Courage, and the Human Side of Directorship: [29:26–31:21]

Closing Reflections

• Alan Murray underscores that good governance is a moving target in a rapidly changing environment. Director excellence today is less about ticking boxes—and more about courageous, broad-minded leadership, critical questioning, and peer-based development.
• Both hosts and guest underscore the human challenges and psychological pressures of board service, advocating empathy alongside expectations for courage and judgment.

For More:

• The Wall Street Journal Leadership Institute Summit (upcoming event discussed)
• Diligent resources and past episodes at diligent.com/resources

PS: Alan’s recommended reading: a book covering 25 years of major business scandals—identifying the core failings in governance that triggered crises and what boards can learn from them.

This episode provides a timely, nuanced look at what it takes to thrive—and survive—in the boardrooms of today and tomorrow.