Ep 100. The Cost of Starting My Business Too Early | Kory Jones

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Cost of Doing Business — Ep 100

Episode Title: The Cost of Starting My Business Too Early | Kory Jones
Host: Weston Zimmerman
Guest: Kory Jones, Founder of Jones Outdoors
Date: May 11, 2026

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Overview

In this milestone 100th episode, host Weston Zimmerman sits down with Kory Jones of Jones Outdoors at the Taco Showcase in Salt Lake City, Utah. Together, they dig into the realities of starting and growing a business in the landscaping and construction industry, with a particular emphasis on what happens when you launch too early. Kory candidly shares his journey, lessons learned, and actionable advice for other business owners—highlighting both his proudest achievements and the most difficult challenges, including the impact of the Covid era and the importance of knowing your numbers.

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Episode Structure & Key Segments

1. Introductions & Kory’s Business Background

Timestamps: 01:32–03:38

• Kory shares the evolution of his company, Jones Outdoors, describing its three divisions: pools, outdoor living, and commercial construction.
• He started with a background in landscape architecture, got an MBA, and initially focused on residential design-build before expanding.
• Unlike many in the green industry, he avoided maintenance from the start, preferring to focus on building and design.
• Currently, the company employs 15–18 people at its summer peak.

2. Seasonal Challenges & Strategies for Year-Round Employment

Timestamps: 03:38–09:24

• Kory details the challenges of keeping staff employed in the winter:
  • Early years: took on odd jobs, such as building trade show booths, to bridge the winter gap.
  • As the company grew, he focused on finding projects that could be done year-round, such as pools or patios, plus off-season shop work (equipment repairs and repainting).
  • Offers winter employment guarantees (30 hours/week) to retain his best people, reducing turnover and encouraging loyalty.

Memorable Quote:
“If you want good people, they're going to come back year after year and just be like your long haul, career-style employees. You've got to solve the year-round thing.”
— Weston (08:01)

3. Proudest Achievement in Business

Timestamps: 09:26–11:11

• Kory takes pride in his role as an employer and mentor, helping team members grow personally and professionally.
• Finding fulfillment in building a business that provides stable jobs and opportunities for others.

Memorable Quote:
“I started out early feeling like one of the purposes of this business is just to help people find a good job, whether that's long term or short term. That was a big thing for me."
— Kory (09:39)

4. Biggest Challenges Faced—Covid & Labor Shortages

Timestamps: 11:20–16:03

• Covid created a labor crisis, forcing Kory and his managers into labor roles and threatening the company’s survival.
• Pivot: shifted to commercial work, investigated the visa program, and successfully brought in seasonal workers.
• This challenging period led to lasting changes, more sustainable staffing, and new systems (including adopting SynkedUP software).

Memorable Quote:
"We hit that realization pretty fast where it's like, we're done if this keeps going the way it's going... Like, we cannot sustain this."
— Kory (12:52)

5. Advice Kory Wished He’d Taken — The Cost of Starting Too Early

Timestamps: 16:52–23:31

• Kory shares the best advice he received but didn’t follow:
  • His father advised him to work for someone else for a year or two after college, to build experience and networks before launching his company.
  • Jumping in "right out of the fire" made the first year overwhelmingly tough on him and his family.
  • With hindsight, he stresses the importance of preparation: saving money, networking, understanding hiring, and gradual scaling.

Notable Quote:
“The best advice I was given, I didn’t listen to. And that’s probably why it's been the most impactful on me.”
— Kory (16:57)

6. Being Prepared vs. Jumping In: Lessons on Timing and Sequencing

Timestamps: 22:33–26:33

• Discussion on the importance of renting vs. buying in early years, cash flow management, and not being afraid to delay expansion until the time is right.
• The stress of being unprepared impacts not just the business owner, but their family and team.
• Importance of balancing urgency with prudence—avoid living on a razor’s edge.

7. Advice for Owners: Knowing Your Numbers and Learning From Mistakes

Timestamps: 27:01–41:15

• Kory highlights that growth requires moving beyond being just a technician/craftsman and embracing the role of business owner.
• Owners must focus on the business side: systems, planning, delegating, and, above all, knowing job costs and financials.
• Discusses how errors are inevitable, but rapid, ongoing course correction is key.
• Emphasizes the crucial difference between top-line revenue and bottom-line profit.

Notable Moments:

• “If you don’t know your numbers, then you really put yourself in a hole. But I’d say, rent for that first year. That’s what we did. Get your cash going and then buy, right after.” — Kory (22:06)
• “The whole reason why you are in business is to make money. That is it.” — Kory (41:38)

8. Handling Stress as an Owner

Timestamps: 30:28–32:33

• Kory’s strategy for dealing with business stress: “Attack, attack, attack”—face issues head-on, as procrastination makes stress worse.
• Eases stress by proactively tackling client issues and problem projects.

Quote:
“The only way that I can think of or that I know is like, attack, attack, attack. Take it head on, get it done and get it out of your life.”
— Kory (31:20)

9. If He Could Start Again: What Would Kory Do Differently?

Timestamps: 33:15–38:01

• Preparation and focus on strengths would have been central; avoid getting distracted by too many opportunities.
• Reiterates importance of knowing your numbers from day one, but acknowledges mistakes and growth are inevitable—and necessary for learning.
• The value of mentorship, systems, and continuous self-education.

10. Final Reflections & Taking Action

Timestamps: 38:01–45:16

• Both Weston and Kory reflect on the importance of job costing, regular check-ins, and course correction to avoid small mistakes growing into major problems.
• Closes on the point that a business needs to be profitable—not just impressive or fun—to be sustainable for owner, staff, and family.
• Touches on how business tools like SynkedUP can help, but only if they’re implemented fully.

11. Where to Find Kory Jones / Jones Outdoors

Timestamps: 45:49–46:17

• Instagram: @jonesoutdoorsut
• Website: jonesoutdoors.com
• Facebook (more personal): Kory Jones

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Notable Quotes & Takeaways

• “You can do the right thing at the wrong time.” — Weston (22:40)
• “If you have a little more of a buffer or depth, whether that’s in time for your family or in cash...If you’re always in a crisis, it makes good people do dumb things.” — Weston (23:57)
• “You make a good point...It’s been my experience where I’m not necessarily cutting corners...I know I’m over hours, I know I’m over budget, but I just have to finish this and make it good.” — Kory (40:22)
• “At the end of the day, it’s either a business or it’s a hobby. If it’s a hobby, good, but I haven't run into one yet that’s their goal.” — Weston (43:03)

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Episode Takeaways

• Preparation beats enthusiasm: Take time to learn, save, and network before launching a business.
• Retain great people by providing year-round employment—even if it means getting creative with winter work.
• Know your numbers: Profitability, not just revenue, determines sustainability; job costing is essential.
• Face problems directly: Stress and bottlenecks don't resolve themselves—attack issues head-on.
• Learn from mistakes: Mistakes are inevitable, but those who track and adapt quickly are the ones who thrive.
• Tools are only valuable if you use them: Implementing business software creates value only when fully embraced.

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For More Information

Connect with Kory Jones and Jones Outdoors via Instagram or their website for further insights, networking, or business inquiries.

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End of summary.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Cost of Doing Business podcasts. Things on Instagram are pretty shiny, but here we're going to get to the reality behind the scenes on the hard journey of growing a business so we can all learn from each other. I'm your host, Weston Zurman, co founder of Synced Up. Been in the green industry my whole life. Let's get into it.

[B]

Welcome back to another episode of the Cost of Doing Business podcast. We are officially out here in beautiful Salt Lake City, Utah, and got to see Corey Jones. Saw his name badge when he was approaching the booth this morning here at the Taco Showcase. That's what I'm in town for. And I was like, oh, man, I remember you because of four years ago now when you were.

[C]

When we were.

[B]

I don't even know, we were on an onboarding call or something, and you were telling me about your whole horseback riding. What is that sport called?

[C]

Cowboy mountain shooting.

[B]

Cowboy mountain shooting, yeah. So anyway, this guy's a cowboy and a landscaper on the side now.

[C]

That's right. Yeah.

[B]

But anyway, I always love the west and the. That kind of cowboy stuff. So definitely fun catching up with him here this morning again. And we're having a great conversation like, dude, let's just get a podcast in. We're definitely road showing it here with dead batteries and mic equipment and my backpack stick serving as the tripod. So we're gonna get it done, though. It's the quality of the conversation, not the production.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Well, thanks for agreeing to do this.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

And give everybody watching a bit of a. Just an intro, like what your business looks like, like how many people, what your typical job is. That kind of thing.

[C]

So let's see. So this is our 12th year in business.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So we. We do. So we're a combination of pools, outdoor living, and commercial construction. So kind of have those three divisions that we're running now. We started out just in the basic landscape. I. I actually started out and I did landscape architecture in school as a bachelor's degree. And then I. And then I got an mba. And so after my mba, once that was done, then I started the company just as landscape residential design build. And then like it goes for most contractors, that evolves into more outdoor living, and then that evolves. And then that evolves. So.

[B]

So you never really started on grass?

[C]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. And. And when I started the company, I'm kind of against maintenance. Not for any real reason. Just. I just love the build. Yeah. I love the design side. Design is more of my background.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

So, so I don't push snow, I don't cut grass, I don't trim trees or pull weeds or anything like that. I think those are good industries. And there's some guys here that make a lot of money doing it just wasn't for me. So we just continued to build up until the COVID time when we got tied in with some bigger developers and kind of pivoted and transitioned to just commercial construction. So we've been doing large, large apartment complexes and Starbucks and medical office buildings and RV parks, that sort of thing. But then still hanging on to the residential side. So that also evolved to a pools division that we started two years ago.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

So those are kind of the three divisions of our company. So we, we run about 15 guys in the summertime, in the, in the peak of it all. 15 to 18 in that range. So yeah, that's where we're at.

[B]

So what happens? Okay, so with no snow, no other like side things around the, the design, build, install, what do you do in the winter time? Do you just straight up shut down or do you find other things? Like how do you think about winter?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

For your business?

[C]

So winter was always the challenge. Yeah. Right. And we would find, when we first started, first, first started, we found like odd jobs to do. There was a company we worked for for a couple of years that they built exhibits and booths, like large scale, high end exhibits and booths for like shows, like trade shows, like in Vegas and things like that. So like Shot show ces, the surf show in Florida, those type of shows, the golf, you know. So companies are spending millions on these booths. I know. And so this company out of Ogden would build them and their super busy time is November, December, January. So that really helped transition over. It's. It was.

[B]

So you were literally building these booths.

[C]

Yeah. Here.

[B]

And then they shipped them or you were in the city. Both. Really?

[C]

Yeah. So we would build them here. We would help build them here. And then when showtime came, we flew, they flew us, all of our guys with their crew to Vegas, to Orlando, Denver, wherever. And we were part of the setup of it all. So. So Shot show was probably the coolest where you get, you know, you build these huge booths for these companies. Get done. And the night before the show starts, everybody's set up just primed and there's not a soul there. And so I walk through there and you kind of have like your own personal tour of the show before, because the next day it's shoulder to shoulder of people. Right. So that was, I mean, it Was fun, but it was very short. We could feel like this is a short term gig for us. So we did that for a little bit. And then as our company evolved and we kept doing more of the outdoor living and more of the build stuff, we would just keep building it all winter. And so like we, we would be fine through November and into December and then a lot of holidays through December. So we'd have some time off. And then January hits and, and the really harsh winter and the harsh freezes would hit. So we would probably shut down for like three weeks. And even then we're still working. I've got guys in the shop that are fixing trailers, fixing trucks. We repaint all of our equipment every year, like all of that stuff. So we take off all the decals, paint it, just get more Kubota and cat decals, put it back on, and we roll out that way in the spring.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So. So that's. That kind of fills that, that time. Because I. One of the things when I started the company is I really wanted, even though we're a seasonal business, I needed to provide year round employment. Right. We all know the, the. I could probably get by without work in the winter, but none of my guys really can. That's too much time. So. So we just find ways. So more of our projects, we would continue to be able to either build pools or patios or retaining walls, all those types of structural things. Because December or January we'd be off, and then February, you kind of start rolling back into some of the lighter things. And then by then we're into March and we could get working again. So you keep it going. The other thing is I commit to my guys, all of our guys, that if they stay with me all year round or at least through the busy season, then I commit at least 30 hours a week during the winter. And that's what we really back off to, is we just work four days. Everybody has Friday off. I really encourage vacations and sick days if they're gonna get sick, get sick in the winter, you know, so that's really. We did. And it works. Yeah, you just figure out a way and it works. And then once March hits and you get through some rain days and some wet, then you're into your season. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I think, I think the key thing, like I was an employee for 15 years at Tuscan Landscaping, not an owner. And so I was on the other end of that whole, you know, like, can't go without working for that long. So the thing that definitely, I think is A key ingredient for anybody. If you want, if you want good people, they're going to come back year after year after year and just be like your long haul career style employees. You gotta solve the, the year round thing. I don't, you know something, Some guys shut down outright and just budget for their pay through the winter. Other guys like, will continue to find ways to be gainfully like, you know, you know, just, it's like going to spring training camp. Like you just keep your, keep your, you're just prepping your business for maximum productivity when weather breaks.

[C]

Right.

[B]

You know.

[C]

Right. The hardest thing is just turnover. If you're losing all those guys you've spent a year training. Yeah. They know your systems, they know you, they're committed to you.

[B]

You're starting all over again.

[C]

Yeah, that, that. There's no progress with that.

[B]

No. Especially in, in today's market, labor market, where it's so hard to find good people that are actually passionate about construction in this kind of industry. Like it's, it's that that turnover is far more expensive than just building your business around the model of paying them year round. You know, with proper budgeting you can, it's, it's not out of reach. You can totally do it.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But then you gotta have like a feed the beast mentality when, when the, when the weather breaks.

[C]

Yeah. Because we also pay a lot of overtime in the summer. Right. We have this peak time and it's like, get it while you can. Yeah. So in the end it's crazy whether you're looking at individual jobs or the season as a whole. Somehow it all evens out. It comes back down. So three months of light hours and light work gets balanced out by three months of the summer. Really heavy, long days. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, definitely.

[C]

So it works.

[B]

What is the thing that you're the most proud of in your whole business journey so far?

[C]

Most proud of probably the people that we have. Work that I have working with me just is you can bring on team members and kind of train and watch them grow. I started out early feeling like one of the purposes of this business is just to help people find a good job, whether that's long term or short term. Like that was a big part, big, big thing for me. So we've had people come and go, which is great and I've had people stay for a long time, which is also great. But that, that I take a lot of pride in that. And then I guess just like anybody, when you can start a business out of a truck and a couple of Shovels and get it to where. Okay. And now I'm providing a good living for myself, a good living and salaried jobs for my guys, buying all the trucks and equipment that we need for getting it to that point, but then also being like, okay, you guys have helped me get here, now this. We got to get farther. And they're all on board with that. That's. I don't know, I guess collectively that's. There's a lot of pride to be taken into that. The types of jobs and the clients that you get, that all comes by the wayside, those will come go. And we all have our individual pride in the jobs that we. That we do. Right. But. But those I'll. I'll like, forget about a lot of them, honestly, like over, like two years ago, two, three years ago, it's like, I'll go through my phone reel and be like, I remember. Remember how much I hated that person. Right. But anyway, that's how it goes.

[B]

So on the, on the inverse of that, what's been the most difficult challenge you've overcome?

[C]

I think Covid really. Covid was. Was terrible. And that was more so where I really had to pivot. And, and look at, you know, that. That first year of COVID nobody, we. We didn't have anybody working for us, couldn't hire anybody. That's how it was across the board. And we were doing. We had gotten to a point where the technicality of our jobs was so high.

[B]

And so you literally went from zero to 12 employees here in the last four or five years?

[C]

No, there was like, there was four of us. Three. There was like three of us at that time. Sure. So. So from, we'll say 2014, I would. We would have between eight to 10. Okay. Right. Have some high school guys come on and things like that. But that's where it was. And then it really dropped off leading into those Covid years. So I had more managers, but not a lot of laborers. And so the managers and I and the guys that manage for me are older, you know, and so we were all doing the labor. And so that. That Covid year where there was like three of us, basically it was three. You hit that realization pretty fast where it's like, we're done if this keeps going the way it's going. Like, we're. We cannot sustain this. Like, this is way too hard. And like I said, the projects we were doing were way too complicated. We were into like, porcelain paver projects, you know, and multi tiered leveled type stuff. And when you work up in the mountains here in Utah. You're in a rocky, rocky ground. So it's just everything is against you. And so that was. That was just, like, the hardest part. And I think a lot of times in business and in life, like, as entrepreneurs, we're. We're naturally, like, just fighters in general. It's like, I'll figure this out. I'm going to fight through this. And when it gets to be the hardest is when you're staring at an issue where you don't know what to do, you don't know how to solve the problem. Just like, I've figured out so many things, but I'm looking at something like, this is out of my hands, and I don't know what to do. And that's where it gets the scariest, I think. And so for. For me, I was looking at like, we have nobody. And so that's where we pivoted, and we were starting to get. Like I said about that time is when we were getting tied in with some developers and some commercial work coming our way. But that's when I really looked hard at the Visa program and was like, there's workers out there. We just got to get them here. And if you've spent any time out of the country, you know, whether it's in Mexico or anywhere, there's this, like, people desperate for jobs. So I had heard that, you know, you could bring in visa workers, and they're great, and they work through your season and they go home and all these things. And I was like, this. This sounds like it can work out really well. How do I do that? So that kind of started the discovery process of finding a lawyer to work with and getting those systems lined up. And so without having a lot of work, like, on the books for the next year, I just told them, like, send me 10 guys. I'll figure it out, right? If I've got the labor force, I'll find the work, because the work was there, right? And it's one of those. It's more of a testament to you do everything you can, and God provides the rest. And that's really what I can point to, is just like, I did everything. And it got to a point where it's like, I hope these guys come within the next couple of weeks. Otherwise, I'm up a creek pretty bad. And it did, and everything worked out. But, yeah, we got 10 guys the following year on visas. They worked through all of the projects. And then I kind of started bringing back. So I bring back still today. I bring back still five of them now every year.

[B]

Same same from the original 10.

[C]

From the original 10. And we kind of now we have a company policy where if I bring somebody in on a Visa for three years, they're three years consistent and they're awesome, and they love working with us, and we want them back. All sponsor their green card. So just that's how you can actually get around the visas. Because the visa system is actually very expensive and complicated and that whole thing. But that. That kind of saved us. It gave us that labor. It helped the managers do their job, the laborers do their job. And that was actually when I got into synced up as well, is around that same time. So there was more or less like a real, like, bottleneck that happened. And then it really opened up well for all those facets. Yeah. So. But extremely hard. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. No, dude, I. I think anybody that's in the entrepreneurial game, whether it's in landscaping or. Or a mechanic or whatever, like the whole thing of, like, facing an issue, you. Where you just don't know what to do.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, the whole thing, like, I'll fight, but fight which direction.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, it's.

[B]

It's hard.

[C]

Yeah. When there's nobody to hire and you can see it, it's restaurants, you know, mechanic field, the hotel industry, construction industry. Everybody's got the same banner out there. Everybody's got the same job ads out there. It's like, okay, how do I be different? Well, it's hard. You can't work your way around that because the. The people just aren't there to hire. So anyway, yeah, it's.

[B]

It's a. It's definitely a different world than it was, you know, 15, 20 years ago.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What would you say is the best advice you've been given?

[C]

The best. So the best advice I was given, I didn't listen to. And. And that's probably why it's been the most impactful on me is I. It really stung not listening to that first. And what it was, was, so I was at Utah State University. I was finishing my mba. I was in the executive MBA program. As a business owner, I was the only business owner. And an MBA is not. I would not recommend it for a startup entrepreneurial. Right. MBAs are great, but they're for CEOs of companies. Right. You go build, you know, have a big company and that sort of thing. There's a lot of things that I was able to take from it. But coming out of that, everybody's like, oh, what are you. Who Are you going to go work for? What are you going to do with it? And everybody knew, like, I just started my company and that's what I was going to do. So it was my dad that called me one day. I have a great relationship with him. He's a big impact on my life. But he said, core, don't jump into your business right out of school. He said, just go work for somebody for a year or two. Like, go learn the business, go learn the market, go learn, you know, make some contacts, network. Don't put that stress and that hardship on your family right out the gate. But I didn't listen. I jumped into it. Not that I failed, but man, it was a hard year. It was a super.

[B]

You were married already at that time?

[C]

Yeah, I married, I had two kids.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And, and so it was just like, throw yourself into the fire. I don't, I don't necessarily regret going that way because we all have to start somewhere, right. And the path you're on now is where you started. But I really think that it kind of would have alleviated a lot of that first year learning curve and heartache and things. And so, you know, I think there's a saying, something like, if you fail to prepare, then you prepare to fail type thing. Right. And that is that in essence was the learning, the learning lesson that I had. And I guess the advice that I was given was, yes, do your business, yes, jump in, but be prepared a little bit before you go into it. You know, we talked a little bit earlier about when you were getting synced up, going and kind of like being on the road so much. Right. You just, it's natural for people just to jump into things. It's like, this is what I want to do. This is great. You know, and, and being in the green industry, honestly, like, there's so many different things to do, like pools, putting greens. Yeah. You know, fire features, sport courts, concrete. Like none of that is actually green, but that falls in the industry. People can diversify and get into those, but be prepared to get into it first. That's kind of what it was, you know, and that, that I've leaned on that a bunch and kind of thought about that. And that was a big part of when we started our pools division was don't jump into pools just because you can. Just because you're a construction guy. Right. Like, find the right companies to work with, find the right support systems, find the right company and, and product to have, then hire the right people and make sure that we can afford those People. And then, you know, how are all those things, all those things going into it versus, you know, being young and dumb? Everybody's done it. Yeah, you just dive in and it's almost like, wait to dive in. Like once that's all laid, the groundwork is done, then get after it like your hair's on fire.

[B]

So, so if, if you had waited, what do you think would have gone differently or, or maybe maybe would not have triggered as great a sacrifice. I don't, however, like, I don't know what your brain anchors to, but like,

[C]

yeah, it's hard to kind of speculate that. Cause it's like, I definitely think that finding, finding more networking and more people, like more people in my back pocket to kind of help through some of those things would have been more beneficial. Again, even though I have, you know, education and degrees and things like that, I wasn't looking for a lot of startup capital, that sort of thing. It's like, let's take 5,000 bucks and get some trucks and you know, shovels going and we can make this work. Right. I really wanted to like cash flow it as much as I could from day one without debt. Yeah. And so, so. And that's really hard. It's really hard. So I think that I probably would have been wiser to have gotten a few more, like had some savings. Probably the money aspect of it was just like, hey, save some cash first.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Right. Get, get a dump trailer in a skid right now. My. It's funny because I learned my philosophy from that is if you're starting out as a first year, then rent. Yeah, right, right. But only rent that first year. Like if you're renting long term, that, that's hard.

[B]

That's also bad. Yeah, that's also very bad.

[C]

But you don't have the cash flow for that first year, so. Absolutely. Rent don't just go, you know, it's a signature. Is all it takes to get a hundred thousand dollar machine now they just don't deliver it to my house. Right. So it's really risky. And if you don't have those systems in place or your numbers, if you don't know your numbers, then, then you really put yourself in a hole. But I'd say rent for that first year. That's what we did. Get your cash going and then buy. Yeah. Right after. Yeah.

[B]

Because on that point, sequencing is so important. I think it was you we were talking about talking this morning, we were saying about you can do the right thing at the wrong time.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like where, sure, Rent. Like, it's not like renting is always bad or buying is always bad. It's just that there is a time and place to use each. And if you, where, where you get upside down is when you're using the wrong one at the wrong time.

[C]

Yeah, for sure. And so that probably would have been a big thing in the first year. So. So more or less just having more of a cash system in place, like just some kind of buffer. And, and the other thing is, is, and we mentioned this too, is is as, as hard as it is on you. Say it's like, hey, I, I got broad shoulders, I'll take the, that first year learning curve, throw myself in the fire. You don't understand. Your family's taking that too. Right. You're gone, you're worn out, you're pissy all the time. Right. Because you're just like, things aren't going right, but you're fighting through it. Well, they don't, they didn't sign up for that.

[B]

Right, exactly.

[C]

And it's kind of like they. So, so with that understanding, like that first year, it's like, okay, if I network, if I had saved some money and then probably had a couple of good employees that I could start out with, like seeing what a company's hiring procedure was or how they kind of did that, followed that, just get a couple of guys, that would have alleviated an enormous amount of pain.

[B]

Yeah. And it's, it's also like if your back's up against the wall, it also. Rob's not the wrong word, but it removes the ability for you to do what you know is the right thing. Like if you're. Let me just use a very lame analogy. Like if you're on a, if you're on a job wrapping up, you underpriced it and you know you did. And there's something just not going very well about the wrap up and the client wants you to do this extra thing or, or it rained and you got the driveway muddy and now you got to power wash it. Yet on top of it, like you already are losing money and you already are like behind the eight ball and now you got to do this extra thing. And so you, and then you try to cut corners because you're like, you're trying to manage the situation you're in and it just creates this in front of feeds on itself the wrong way. Whereas to your point, if you have a little more of a buffer or a depth, whether that's in time for your family or in cash for making good choices or serving your clients better. It's like crisis. If you're always in a crisis, it makes good people do dumb things, you know, like, it forces you to do things that, you know, you wouldn't choose to do if you didn't have to, you know? Yeah, but no, it's. I really lean in and get curious when I. When I hear these kinds of stories because I'm like, then you. Because there's the opposite extreme to all of them. So, like, you know, we're saying about, you know, you're saying about the. The prudence of, you know, being prepared, having that buffer, not. Not living life on a razor edge, you know, but then on the flip side, there's the other person we may talk to, you know, an hour from now that is just overanalyzing every decision and just can't quite work up the confidence to dive in. So we're all human beings with unique personalities and unique things that maybe sway us or harder for us to deal with. But no, I definitely resonate with. With the. The point you're making. You know, you can do the right thing at the wrong time or.

[C]

And.

[B]

Or the thing of that. You're stressed, you know, you're on edge, you don't know what to do, and, you know, your kids want five minutes of your time. You know, it's just like, yeah, yeah. I feel guilty myself just because we all have those moments when. When it's like, yeah, that wasn't what I wanted to. That wasn't who I wanted to be.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

So a little wisdom around, like, what you sign yourself up for goes a long way.

[C]

Yeah, it does. Yeah. Being ready for it, too. Yeah. It's hard to be ready for things that you have no experience in. Yeah. You know, and that's. That's the other thing. You know, you want to do this. Everybody is really, like, to be a professional in the green industry, like, you have to really love this, because this is hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's not a hobby. Yeah, yeah, right.

[C]

Yeah. But. But okay, the passion is there. But, you know, we tell, like, one of the things I tell my managers all the time, like, you're the brain, they are the muscle. Like, being the laborers are worse team members that are actually doing it. Like, they are the muscle. Like, direct them, guide them. Like, you're not the one doing that. You know, you. They are. And so kind of that. Just that. That same mindset, I guess, a little bit is. Is being. Being like, use your brain more. I always I. I learned really early on, like, I can make money using my hands. Right. Use money using your. Make money using your brain, you'll go a lot farther.

[B]

Yeah, well, what's that Abe Lincoln quote? If you give him eight hours to chop down a tree, he'll spend six hours sharpening the act or something like that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Or another one that. An hour of planning saves eight hours in the field. You know, just those little. Yeah. If you're. If you're. If you're driving the wrong direction. Driving faster just makes it worse.

[C]

Yeah. Which is. Which is funny because we're all. We're all the technician. We're all the. That. That Craftsmen. Yeah, right. Yeah. Nobody gets into the green industry to do the office work side of things. Right. And so it's. It's. It's counterintuitive at times, but that's just the difference between, I. I believe those companies that can grow and. And have good systems and. And have good growth and those that are limited is just simply. The owner just loves that work. I mean, and that's okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There's nothing wrong with that. The work will always be there. Right. There's nothing wrong with jumping on the end of a shovel. It will always be there to do. But how long can you do it? How long do you want to do it? You know, that sort of thing.

[B]

And also, what do you want? Do you want to own a job or do you want to own a business or do you want to give a good life to the people around you? Because, like, sometimes as an owner, the technician, the craftsman, you know, you can jump on the end of the shovel and in doing so, neglect the other thing that your people need. You know, you think you're hustling and working hard and. And maybe not be afraid. Be willing to do any task you would ask your team to do, which is. Which is a good and noble thing. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, but what are. What the question is, are you neglecting anything?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

By. By being in the shovel. And, you know, I look at Steve, the owner of Tyson Landscaping, you know, I think he's a. I look back on my experience with Steve and Matt and the Tuscan Landscaping team, and I. I look at that company and I'm like, you know what? There's an example of owners that love to get on the end of the shovel, you know, but. But they didn't. They did it. They did it with wisdom. Like, they did it. They first built the system, they first built the team and the engine that gave them the freedom to go spend their time doing whatever they wanted.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

As opposed to. Well, I want to do this, so. And I think all entrepreneurs know what I'm talking about here. Like, you have a hard task, one that you really would rather avoid. Or it's hard. It's like, I don't know what to do with it. So you go do the thing that you know how to do.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And just. And in doing so, ignore the thing that you know you really should be doing.

[C]

Right.

[B]

You know, I literally just found myself doing that this past week. It's like, dude, what am I doing?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, rip off the band aid and get on it. And then. And in doing and addressing the thing that you're avoiding. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You will earn the freedom to go be the technician, if you so wish.

[C]

Yeah. That's interesting because my. So my brother. One of the reasons why we started our pool division was I really wanted my brother to come work with us. I could see he was really good at what he was doing. He's working for a fencing and fabrication company and he'd kind of reached his limit and where he was going with that. And he has way more potential. And I'm like. But I couldn't afford him leading up to us. So I was like, going to start the pool division now. We'll have that revenue stream that can support him and his family type thing. So that was a big deal. But he was asking me when they were talking and he was like, man, how do you deal with stress? Right. And it's a pretty broad question, but I thought about it for a sec and kind of exactly what you said is if you're stressed about something, that is when you have to go into attack mode. That band aid ripped off. Or you have to do it, because more times than not, you have to. You're just dragging it out. Something is there that you don't want to do and it's. And you just. It's natural instinct just to be like, no, maybe it will solve itself. It never does. Right. But eventually you get to it and you do it. Right. But we were just talking. I said the only way that I can think of or that I know is like, attack, attack, attack. Like, take it head on, get it done and get it out of your life. Because stress can come really easily. Um, especially if it's dealing, like, say, with a client. Yeah. Like if you have a client go sideways on you that dominates your life, you think about that every night. Every morning you wake up in the middle of the night. And you're thinking about that job or that client, like, get rid of it. Like you have to attack that right off the bat. So I, I don't know if that's helpful.

[B]

I could not agree more. And I don't know if you, when you were describing it in that way, it made me think of another quote. I think it's. Jeff Bezos said, it said stress comes from not acting on the thing you know, you should do. Yeah, that's what it comes from.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like you can be, you can see, you see people going through incredibly hard things that you're like, oh my God, it'd be so stressful. But they're attack, like you said, they're attacking. And like when you're taking action on the thing that's dominating.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Causing that stress. Like you've taken action, you killed it. Maybe, maybe it's, I'm not saying it produced the outcome you wanted, but you at least didn't let it own you any longer.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, yeah, it's, it's so easy to sit here when it's your own issue, man. That's when the, that's when it's like, it's easy to look at other people's situations. But yeah, that's what's going on. And then not see it for yourself.

[C]

Right? Yeah, for sure. It's good. Yeah.

[B]

If you go back to day one, what is one thing you'd do differently?

[C]

Day one? I think it goes back to that preparation. Right. And so having an understanding of what you're good at and really just kind of focusing on that, it's too easy to get distracted by all the other squirrels out there that's in business. Right. So, I mean, I, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I listen to this one a bunch of times and, and one of the more popular things, And I agree 100 is knowing your numbers. Right. But more, more so that bottom line more than the top because it's so easy. And especially like my situation where I came out of business school and the only thing you study in business school is publicly traded companies. Right. Because they're, that's where their info is at. So it's big numbers, big numbers, big numbers, big companies, big names, big companies. You know, so you come at US school going like, yeah, let's, let's do this. So the first time you get a hundred thousand dollar job. Holy cow. I remember feeling when I got $10,000 job, and in the end the only thing that covered was the material that was a butt kicker. But you know, fortunately it wasn't a hundred thousand, but when you, when you hit that and you're just like, man, I can't believe that we did this. You know, I got this first triple or six figure, you know, job. But that, it doesn't matter. I mean, we've talked, we've. It's really well known out there, I think that, you know, the top line is one thing, but your bottom line is everything. Right? And so knowing that from, from day one, but you don't know what you don't know. You don't have experience. Everybody starts out with spreadsheets, you know, because that's what's easy. And that calculates it. And you read about profit margins and you read about, you know, cost of goods sold and all those types of things and you're trying to work through all that and your budget and things and then you evolve and then you grow and you find a little bit of software to help. Our first app was just time tracking. It was awesome because we're like, hey, no more time cards, no more physically writing these out. So you find that. And so I could easily say, like, if I had synced up from day one, it wasn't around then. But something like synced up would have been amazing to have because that, that would have really put you on, on a, on a direction that was really healthy from the very beginning. But I don't know if in my situation, I don't know if that's realistic at all because everybody starts at the infancy stages. Like, I can go back and say, like, listen, Corey, you're going to want a, you know, Kubota U57 excavator with this truck and this trailer and this skid loader. That's what's going to set you up. Right. That's not realistic for me to have known that right off the bat unless I was, had experience, you know, working for somebody for a few years. Right. Same thing with the number side of things. I think in a sense I would have loved to have had numbers right off the bat, but you kind of have to have that pain. You have to feel that pain. You have to get it wrong.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You don't know what's right till you know what's wrong.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. So to, so to dismiss that by saying, well, if I had this in place at the very beginning, never to be wrong. That's where it's like, no, that's not really realistic now to say, you know, either the mentors or the programs or the systems that we have now to start off at the very beginning in whatever direction you need something. Right. And that, and, and that might just be Excel, but you know, education is continual. You, you don't ever stop. Yeah. And so if you're willing to learn and grow and, and keep looking, you know, the easiest thing is, is social media. Hey, what are these guys doing? What are they, what, what are they driving? What are they, how are they operating? You can see a lot just from. I would visit other companies websites and I would. Actually the first thing that I go to a website is the about tab. Because I want to see. All right, who's their owner? Yeah. What's his background?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

How long have they been doing it? How many people? Like I can see, wow, this is a big company. Even if I know nothing about them. Like they've got like 14 people on their about tab. Like this is somebody that is doing something right. So I want to emulate that. That's kind of where you start. So that might be a roundabout way of not saying a whole lot but, but certainly like knowing your numbers but, but kind of being prepared to do what you know, that you're good at. Yeah. You know, so I think to kind

[B]

of play ping pong on your line of thinking here. Like what I'll reflect back from what I'm hearing is like, yeah, you don't know what's right until you know what's wrong in some regards in a vacuum.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But couple things is first you have to make sure that you know when something goes wrong that you know it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that's the thing that is so prevalent in our industry of where like, I don't know, I just work harder. I don't know, let my bookkeeper figure it out. I don't know, they just like kind of dis. Dismiss, you know, the, the numbers side of things. And by the time that they can't ignore it any longer because it's like, can't ignore it in my cash balance, in my bank account or tax season rules.

[C]

I have no money.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[C]

That's what it comes down to is like why do I have no money?

[B]

By the time that happens though, you are typically speaking months downstream from the decisions or the things that happen that caused you to get to that place in the beginning. And so the key thing is like you're not going to be flawless and make no mistakes. The difference between the people that actually, you know, have this like, wow, how did you get there in five years? You know, it's, it's like they're paying attention to the things that matter. Because if you're. And they know when they're wrong and they course correct is the point. Because if flying a plane. What's that? I don't know where I read this. Something about if you're, if you leave Los Angeles on a plane and you're one degree off and your direction heading, you're heading to New York from la. If you're one degree off, you end up like in, I don't know, like Toronto. Yeah. It's like hundreds of miles. Yeah. Hundreds of miles away. And like, I think that's the point is like, are you checking every day or every week on your heading? Like, which you're. Are you on. On point? Are you on track? And that to me is the way my brain maps that into a real world example for contractors is job costing. Like if you don't know that you lost money or went over hours or went over material on a job and you don't expend the energy to try to find out whether you did or not. Like you will find out when you run out of cash. By that time it's too late to do anything about it, or it's often too late even at that point to know like, well, what should I have done differently? Well, I don't know because I wasn't watching, you know, and so that's the worst position to be in. So I think the message of what I'm trying to say is don't have the expectation that you won't mess up, because you will. Yeah, just have the expectation that when you mess up, you will know it immediately and you'll know what you need to do to change it.

[C]

Yeah, because you make a good point. Like you mentioned earlier, like, you know, contractors, I think in general, like your, your work represents, you know, your name is on that job and people either get behind and things like that. It's been my experience where I'm not necessarily cutting corners, I'm doing the opposite, where I'm like, I know I'm over hours, I know I'm over budget, but I just have to finish this and make it good. And you do a good job at the end. Right. But it's just as damning, you know, not knowing your numbers and either doing work that you're trying to shortcut because you know you're behind, or you're going way over, you know, because you're trying to do just as good of a job and you're just kind of. It's washed in your Head. And it's like, well, my name's on this. I'm going to make this right and get it done. Right. In the end, that's a better result for your client. Right.

[B]

It's always the right result. It's just.

[C]

But you still have no money from that. Yeah. The bank account will still see zero whether you're doing a great job and bang up, you know, and it's going to be in a freaking magazine. You know, in the end, like, everybody has to understand one thing. The whole reason why you are in business is to make money.

[B]

That is it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Right. It's. Hey, I'm a contract. I'm good. I can build stuff. Right. I'm. I love trucks. I love, you know, the, the, the purchasing all these things. The, the macho bravado that kind of comes with this industry. Right. You love all that stuff. And this is. And you can put out a good business and all these things. But I, I mean, it's really basic. Yeah, of course we're all doing that. But until you, like, say, can I say no to certain things because I'm not making money off of that? Yeah. You know, or can I do certain things in a different way because if I'm not making money, I'm not doing it. That's hard.

[B]

Yeah, it is hard.

[C]

That's really hard.

[B]

Especially when you want the job. It's the showpiece, it's the whatever. And like. And like, I, I often run into this kind of. This kind of thing when talking to contractors. Like, well, you know, I can never charge that much because my competition is cheaper than me. And I'm like, well, I mean, it's. It's your money, not my money. Yeah, yeah, It's. This is what it costs you to do the job. Like, are you willing to pay for the privilege of getting this job? Like, are you willing to show out your own dollars? And then it's all like, you know, of course not. Well, yeah, yeah, there you go. You know, so, yeah, at the end of the day, it's either a business or it's a hobby. And it's. If it's a hobby, good. But I haven't ran into one yet. That, that's. That, that's their goal, you know, it

[C]

is a business, not your. It's not your family's hobby.

[B]

Yeah. Go fishing, go boating, go horseback riding.

[C]

Go.

[B]

You know, that's hobby stuff.

[C]

Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Well, Corey, absolute pleasure. That was an unexpected surprise to see you.

[C]

I was, I was thrilled to see that. I Looked for steam tap and I was like there. And then I thought maybe you'd send somebody. So having you here is great. I. I love it. If anybody tied up to Synced up or anything back east can come out, please hit me up.

[B]

Definitely.

[C]

Like I'm here. Like, I want to be more or less a representative of either Synced up or Utah in general. Sure. I'm happy to share info. You know, numbers wise or not. I'm an open book because I think it helps everybody as a whole. Anybody is thinking about synced up. Like synced up is a weapon for your business. And we talked about this earlier. If, you know, it's funny, there's things that, that those automatic payments that I see that will come across and sing, that is one of those where I have no problem. I actually think you're under selling it a little bit. That's my opinion. But if people are struggling with that, I don't know. I. And I get that because right now, right now I'm paying for a lot of marketing that isn't coming across and not working out. And that drives me crazy. Right. I think we've all been there and that hurts to pay every month, like find things that is just like, this is so easy to pay. Yeah. Right. And synced up is one of those things where I'm just like, I have no problem with that amount, you know, every single month.

[B]

You know, the thing I'm going to tell, the thing I'm going to say for the sake of those listening on this is there's a reason why you say that and that is because you use the system. Yeah, you, you get the system. You implement the system. You use the system. Buying a brand new machine and then never turning the key on it is useless. And usually when I run into people that have a, have a hard time with the price of synced up or, or whatever, it's like, it's a, it's a price versus value. It's like every dollar you spend on synced up should come back to you 10 times, 20 times, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But anyway, that's a whole, you know, you don't want to know what you don't know. You know, it's another whole entrepreneurial mindset thing. But no, I really appreciate the, really appreciate the support and the kind words and I really hope to see you again at the contractor summit coming this fall.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm definitely gonna take you up on the whole horseback riding thing. The, the horseback mounted shooting. Yep. So we'll be back out in Salt Lake. But for anybody before we stop, where can people reach out to you get get in touch with you?

[C]

Instagram is jonesoutdoors Ut okay, so Jones Outdoors in Utah website is jones outdoors.com my contact info is on that. So those are kind of the two main. The Facebook side of things is just my name, but that's more of the family and sure kind of that that regard. Even though there's, there's really good, you know, synced up groups that we talk, you know on on Facebook and things like that. But more of the personal side. But yeah, those two is the best. Okay.

[B]

Thank you brother.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Pleasure.

[C]

Appreciate you.

[B]

You betcha.

[A]

Hey, thanks for listening to the Cost of Doing Business show. If you need help with knowing your numbers or you're looking for a better automated system to run estimating and scheduling and job costing or more in your business, just hit me up. You can book a demo@synced up.com or DM me on Instagram inked up, which is spelled S Y N K E D U P. See you on the next one,

[B]

Sam.