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- [00:05]
A
Welcome to the Cost of Doing Business podcasts. Things on Instagram are pretty shiny, but here we're going to get to the reality behind the scenes on the hard journey of growing a business so we can all learn from each other. I'm your host, Weston Zimmerman, co founder of Synced Up. Been in the green industry my whole life. Let's get into it. Welcome back to another episode of the Cost of Doing Business podcast. Today. Today we're speaking with Dan and Emily and I'll let them give themselves a proper introduction. I am actually in Romania in our little cabin. That's another whole backstory on my personal side. My wife's family's from Romania, so I'm actually across the ocean from Dan and Emily this morning while we're doing this podcast. So Dan, Emily, thank you for doing this. Thank you for doing it virtually like this. And I'm, I'm excited for this conversation because I still, just from time to time, I remember that conversation we had at the Northeast Hardscape Trade show in March. And it was fun. It was a really good conversation and I really enjoy getting to know you guys better. So looking forward to seeing what your story, learning more about your story for the sake of the podcast. But as you share your story, there's something about sharing stories or just sharing your own experiences that is always has value in it for other people. Sometimes it's nothing more than just a, oh, good, I'm not the only one that's fighting with this issue. Or sometimes it's like that's a really good idea idea or, you know, inspiration. So without further ado, introduce yourselves for the, for the audience and give yourself, give everyone kind of an idea what your business looks like, how many people, what your core service offerings are, that kind of thing.
- [01:44]
B
Thanks. Awesome. Dan. I started the company when I was about 12 years old, when I was in middle school. Started push mowing lawns around the neighborhood. And then as I got more involved in the business and developed a greater appreciation for the industry, we pushed into more of the hardscaping side of things and we really developed some specialized hardscape crews and planting crews and built out systems within the crews and trailers and equipment that make the job really efficient for both us as the management team and them in the field. So right now we have about six crews in the field. We have about 15 to 20 guys depending on the season. And yeah, we're really excited to have this conversation with you and it's been a really fun journey.
- [02:34]
A
Awesome. Love it. Emily, what, what's Your role in the company. I'm sure you're holding down some part of the fort.
- [02:42]
C
Yeah. Thanks, Weston. And thanks for having us. So I'm Emily and I'm actually Dan's wife. But I run the finance and strategic planning side of the business. So it's me and one other person here in the office. We handle all of accounts receivables, financial projections for the year, cash flow projections, and then just sort of job tracking. So seeing where we're at when we estimate a job versus when we complete a job.
- [03:15]
A
Really curious. Just for my own curiosity, were you doing that kind of analysis even before Synced up it just in a different way, or is this something you. That synced up and it helped you kind of get underway?
- [03:29]
C
Yeah, that's a good question. So Dan, when he first started the business was job tracking in Excel.
- [03:36]
A
Okay.
- [03:36]
C
And what he would do is he had like several columns in Excel. He had one sheet per year. The first column was like the date. The second column was like the name of the client. The third column was the job total. The fourth column was expenses, and then the fifth column was how much we made on the job. And that was the extent of the job tracking. Once we started using Synced up is when we hired a full time person to manage the job tracking and financial tracking of individual jobs. And it just so happens that this aligns with the time where we are pushing into higher ticket projects. So it works out great. And it's a. It's a good position that I think a lot of people don't necessarily have a dedicated person for, which makes it unique.
- [04:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. And at your size, I would say it's, it's. It makes sense to me. And I agree with how you're thinking about it and hiring for it, because just stereotypically speaking, I think too many people in our industry. Well, you know what it is, we focus on what we love. And what do we love? We love our craft out in the field. We don't really love pouring over numbers. So. So basically what ends up happening is just having a sense of how did we do on this job? Did we actually hit the profit that we wanted to hit on this job that we estimated we would hit? And if not, why? It just doesn't get the love and attention that it deserves and it needs. And I understand why for so many reasons. It's why Synced up exists, to try to make that easier for people. But I very much applaud the way you are focusing on that part of your business because it Will serve you well. It's a little bit like you can't fix what you don't know is broken. And so many people. And if you don't know it's broken. In this particular example of job costing, if you don't know and things just continue as they are, the moment that you can no longer ignore, it doesn't happen until you run out of cash. And by that time you're months downstream of the problem and it's very difficult to know what to do to fix it. But the way you guys are running it, it's like, you know, running. You're on top of it, on point. And sometimes there's even cases where you know so quickly that there might even be opportunities to mitigate the variance. Like, hey, let's attack this production a little bit differently or let's learn from the estimating mistake that we made or whatever. And it really not only does it reduce or mitigate the risk of running out of cash, but it also helps you lessen the blow when mistakes or variances do happen because you know about it so quickly.
- [06:33]
C
Yeah, I was going to say, I was going to add in there that it's almost like an insurance program for us. We pay insurance on our vehicles, we pay insurance for general liability.
- [06:43]
B
Right.
- [06:44]
C
Pay all of this insurance. But a lot of people don't focus on the back end. The cash flow.
- [06:50]
A
Yeah.
- [06:51]
C
In this position directly correlates with strong cash flow as well. Because we bill out the day after for the day before. So we're always up to date on our billing as well.
- [07:05]
A
Very interesting. And that's an. It's another thing, you know, how many times have you heard of a contractor that did the work and forgot the bill or it billed three weeks later or three months later? You know, so cash flow is so critical, especially when you get into this industry and you start doing these higher ticket jobs like instead of having many say small ticket jobs, you start having a fewer large ticket and it creates very lumpy cash flow on. For your. For your bank balance. And that can you. You get a couple of those lumps headed the wrong direction. It's. It's tough. So. Love to hear that.
- [07:41]
C
Yeah, definitely.
- [07:43]
A
Yeah. Dan, what is, what would you say, how would you describe your day to day role these days?
- [07:50]
B
Right now I'm mostly doing project management and estimating. About a little over a year ago, we started the search for a salesman and estimate our position, which we were able to fill in the fall. So we were able to carry this position through the winter into the spring. So this is our first season coming into the year with some someone dedicated towards estimates and sales. Now that project grew or that position grew into more of a project management role as well. So myself and Kyle, who's in that role, we're both simultaneously managing and estimating different large scale projects. So there's no leaf left unturned, there's no details missed. We focus on each project and we have the crews, we schedule everyone and we're focused on the crews completing that project. So my day to day, in addition to managing the company, running the business, managing the people is also. I'm truly a salesman and project manager. Great. Because I've been through, I've cut the grass, I've been on all the crews as we built the business. So I know all the ins and outs of every particular job or service that we're completing.
- [09:12]
A
Yeah, yeah, makes sense. How was it in your own like confidence or the emotional rollercoaster of hiring someone and handing over something so critical as estimating in sales? Like was it something that you kind of was. Was it hard for you to know when the right time was or did it just kind of feel like it fell into place? Like it was, it was obvious, like what was your experience like bringing that on?
- [09:40]
B
It was something that I was thinking about several years prior because every spring it's peak season, you know, the shoulder seasons always push us to our max. And every spring you end up feeling burnt out and overwhelmed. So every year I was like, oh, this is the last year I can do it by myself without getting help. So last year I was finally like, we can't grow anymore unless we add to our team. And by adding to the team, that would allow me to focus on different things which would advance the company in years forward rather than getting stuck in that day to day grind.
- [10:19]
A
Yeah, yeah. Did you have any doubts when you did finally hire the person? Like about like, you know what, how do I know they're not screwing it up? How do I like did you talk about that experience? Because I know a lot of people really struggle with getting to that point where they're trust. Hand over that trust in the delegation process.
- [10:39]
B
Yeah, no, I didn't have any doubts because when we met with this person, I knew immediately that it was going to work out. They fit the culture, they fit the team. They were similar to us. And he also came over with 30 years of experience in the industry.
- [10:54]
A
Okay.
- [10:55]
B
So he has even more knowledge than I do.
- [10:58]
A
Okay.
- [11:00]
B
For suggestions and different information that I might not know.
- [11:05]
A
Interesting. So What I hear in that is you made a good hire in experience and in culture fit, like, who, not how. And all you're doing is making sure that this person has the right numbers to work with, AKA the budget is set and the hourly rates and all that are dialed in, and off they go like you're. It's a little bit like they say, a leader should focus on hiring people that are smarter than themselves in the areas that they're hiring for. And it sounds to me like that's what you were fortunate enough to be able to do, which is something that is. I think everybody wants to do, but it's tough to actually have happen. And, you know, call it a little bit of luck involved or, you know, you're patient enough to say no to the hire. That's. And then get the one that nails it for you. But, yeah, that's. That's a very strong position to be in because I think that's one of the things that trips up most contractors on their growth journey is getting people that they can just delegate that trust to.
- [12:09]
B
That's right.
- [12:10]
C
Yeah. I just wanted to add. So we definitely were very blessed because it was a difficult process for us to find this person. And truthfully, we really didn't even find them. They sort of found us. And when we first met with Kyle, we, like, Dan said we knew immediately. And it's to the point where Dan and Kyle even look similar. So clients will be like, hi, Dan, how are you on a job? And he's like, oh, no, I'm not Dan. And they're like, oh, you must be Dan's brother, because he's a family business and we have a lot of family involved, so. So people are just, oh, yep, you're a Gagnon.
- [12:55]
A
Unbelievable. That's amazing.
- [12:58]
B
Yeah.
- [12:59]
A
That's awesome.
- [12:59]
C
It really is.
- [13:00]
A
Yeah. So being that you've. You've been blessed, being on this side of that experience of delegating something, a big chunk of responsibility off like that. What would you say to someone that wishes they were there? Like, what would you say is. I mean, you mentioned the culture fit. You mentioned they found you instead of you finding them, which it can't always happen. But the point being is that's what happens with good businesses. They attract people, you know. So my question that I want to pose to you, just for the sake of anybody listening here that wishes they were. They had that ability, what would your advice be to them in terms of, like, hiring someone to take over sales or assist in sales or really, I guess, any other portion of the business as well. Like maybe your side of the business too. Emily, what would you say, what would your advice be to someone that, to, to pull this off? Well, and kind of what I'm getting at is I think so often we hire out of urgency. We feel we need to hire quickly and we end up getting the wrong person. And not only do we now have, have we now spent the time and money on that person, but we're worse off than when we started because we sunk all those resources into a person that didn't really able, wasn't really able to take that off of your plate. So just curious if your experience, if you have any advice to
- [14:25]
B
I would say trust the process. We've all been there. We've all had 11:12pm nights that we're up and we're estimating and it's midnight and you feel pretty drained. But you really have to go through that process to realize the value of what it's like to add these people to the team. And I think in doing so, you develop a character that really you realize what's important and where you want to focus your time and energy. And once you know that the time is right, I think it'll strike you. And you know, we posted up the job ad on indeed. And we thought about it several, we thought about it several times before we actually pulled trigger on posting that up. And I think after years and years of doing it yourself and learning what works, what doesn't work, building up the systems, learning the pricing, everything finally clicks and, and then it makes sense to implement that into your business.
- [15:26]
A
Would you add anything to that, Emily?
- [15:29]
C
I would. So hitting on a little bit more of what you were talking about, Weston, My advice would just be don't hire desperately. Just be patient. It seems like a desperate decision because once you make the choice to hire someone for that role, you're like, I really, really, really, really need this role filled. I need to get back with my family. I need to spend more time at home, I need to do, to do whatever. But really it pays off to hold on to the responsibility and make the sacrifice for a little bit longer rather than hiring a bad hire. And then you're like, oh shoot, four months in, you've already invested a lot of money into this person in their wages, they're on your payroll. You have workman's compensation, you have insurance benefits. All of these things that you've invested and your your own time training this person just for it not to work out. So it's almost saves you in the long run, if you just keep the responsibility on yourself a little bit more and you have those open conversations with whomever might be at home who, you know, they're wanting your time back, they want to be with you. But sometimes we have to sacrifice short term so that long term, it does work out. Instead of taking that opportunity short term just for it not to work out long term. Now we're in the same position we were in six months ago, a year ago, it could be three years. And when you realize that that's not a good hire, you know, so.
- [17:08]
B
And I'll just add something real quick. I would say for our business, we've ran very lean, especially since COVID And I think, you know, I spent a lot of late nights doing the estimates. And I think that really set us ahead because we were able to throw some cash in the bank to help build the business rather than putting it into people's salaries and spending it on overhead. Because once you get to the point where you build your overhead more and more and more, if you're not growing the business, it becomes an unsustainable model.
- [17:44]
A
Absolutely.
- [17:44]
C
And actually, just to add real quick to that, Weston, you'll think this is interesting. We, in that same mindset, we put off implementing a software, a CRM, in our business for like two additional years when we knew that our competitors were doing it because we were like, heck, we're saving $700 a month. You know, we. We have that back in our pocket. Our competitors are spending it on a silly software. Which is funny because now we have several softwares and they pay off tenfold, you know.
- [18:20]
A
Yeah, yeah. Is absolutely possible to spend money on overhead that does not bring a return on investment or doesn't pay you more in return than what you're paying for it on cost. But yeah, it's so interesting that you say that, Emily, because I see it from my side running synced up all the time, where somebody that is. Well, I'll just share this 1 32nd story. One time I was talking to a landscaper that, like, man, I need job costing. I'm like, okay, well, tell me what's going on. Like, what's what. Why now? What's the. What brought this need on? He's like, dude, I think I'm losing four to five grand a month on jobs that I'm not estimating correctly. And I'm like, okay, well, yeah, here's how we fix that. We can fix that, like, quickly. And then we jumped over to the pricing and he's like, oh, well, I can't afford 400amonth, you know, for software. And it was just like, okay, I don't know how your math works, but my math works that, that's a 10x return.
- [19:23]
C
Yeah, yeah, you get that $5,000 back in your pocket, you're only 400.
- [19:30]
A
But yeah, to your, to your point, I think one of the lessons that every entrepreneur has to learn is that you don't spend business money the way you might spend your personal income, household money, necessarily. Because in business it's about finding ways to get leverage and finding ways to generate. And leverage could be save me time. So I don't. So I'm not estimating at 11pm at night. Leverage could be. I have an estimating process. Instead of it all being in my head, now I can stand, I can hire another person and let them also estimate just like I do. You know, there's so many ways to look at this and genuine, generally speaking, when implemented well, things like CRM software, marketing software like go high level or operations software like synced up, they will, they will bring back whatever you're spending on them, make many times over in time savings and human error reduction and that kind of thing.
- [20:28]
C
Agreed. Agreed.
- [20:31]
A
Something you were saying there earlier, Emily, made me think of a podcast I was listening to last week coming back from Croatia actually. And the one liner that stuck with me was to your point about maybe waiting a little bit on hiring or whatever is the cost of a bad decision is in the future, but the cost of a good decision is now. And let's say I just use like going to the gym as a, as a very simple analogy, like the cost of sleeping in and not going to the gym is zero today. In fact, there's a gain. I get to sleep in, but the cost is in the future, you know, and if I, if I don't want to pay that cost in the future, I can pay the cost today and go to the gym. The point being you don't get to escape paying the cost, you only get to escape where you want to pay the cost now or in the future. And generally speaking, it's a seesaw that balances out. Sure, you can avoid doing the thing you know you need to do. Sure, you can avoid making any decision. There's so many ways this plays out in real life. But generally speaking, the cost of good habits is now, the cost of bad habits is in the future. And it makes me think of the hiring thing when the way you were framing that, because sure, I could urgently hire somebody, but Then I pay for that cost, all the things you listed off there. Or I could just be careful, prudent, be sanity checking my decision. And when, when you make that good decision, sure you may have paid some costs, you know, in the in and you didn't get the benefit as quickly as you would have liked, but you got the benefit. And when you did get it, it stuck. And on that topic of hiring, another thing I heard somebody is not original with me, but it was something that stuck with me is like you will make more, you will make more money hiring the people that cost more. Like higher skilled, higher, higher, higher, more capable people than you will saving a dollar on wages or whatever to get, to get cheaper labor or cheaper roles or whatever. Like the point being if you, I don't know, if you hire a 100, 000 plus foreman, let's say a year plus versus a, a 40 or 50000 a year person that you call a foreman, very different. And you can build your business very differently on top of those, on top of those people that are more expensive. Yes. But also a lot. Again in this game of seeking leverage, there's so much more you can gain out of having solid people that you can rely on.
- [23:22]
C
Yeah, yeah. A couple things that we've implemented that have been helpful and might be helpful for people listening is tryouts.
- [23:31]
A
Yeah.
- [23:31]
C
So if we, if we have somebody in for an interview that we think is might be a good fit, we're like, hey, do you want to do a tryout? Would you be okay doing a tryout? That's you know, three to five day period where you come here and there's no obligation back and forth, but you can showcase your skills. You're saying you can do xyz? Okay. We want to see it, you know, like it's another insurance program. And then the second thing is tiered job offers. So we always have a training period, a development phase and then we call it the innovative phase, which is once an employee starts to innovate themselves and be high level in their role. So that's when they reach the salary that they were expecting or the salary that the role is worth. The training period is, you know, a reduced salary for a certain amount of time or once they're proficient, then the developments, a certain number of days of time, whatever at a mid salary and then you hit that top salary. So it's really motivating for employees to showcase what they can do and do their best work and to implement our culture and the way we do things because they Know they're going to get over the course of. I think it's 90 days. 90 days? 90 days. So 3, 6, 9. Over the course of nine months you have three opportunities to increase your starting salary. So it's pretty motivational for people. What we found so far, Dan, would you agree?
- [25:18]
B
Yeah, I'd say it's worked out pretty well. And we've had people do trial runs that have worked out phenomenal and then people who haven't worked out. So it's a great way to be able to roll people right into full time employment or be like, hey, you know what, like I appreciate everything you've done, but it just doesn't seem like it's gonna work out. And then you can very easily move, go your separate ways without it being awkward or anything.
- [25:44]
A
Yeah, no, I, I think it's, there's a lot of wisdom in that because you know, I think anybody that's hired people knows that the person you thought you hired in the interviewing process and the person you now know you have 90 days later. Very often you learn new things and you don't have to do a 90 day trial period, but there's something that, there's something about doing a trial period or a test project or however you want to do it in your interviewing process that is so insightful. It's more valuable in my mind than any resume or any question you can ask in the interview process.
- [26:20]
C
Yeah, yeah. Because we've been in situations, I'm sure so many people have where you hire somebody who says I can do X, Y, Z and then you put them in that position and it's like they really, really can't do that to the level that they made it seem like they can. And that's a horrible feeling for leadership because it's like, shoot, now I feel like this person is worth less salary, less money and it, it makes it awkward and you, you have to basically backtrack to try to grow that person into what you were expecting.
- [26:57]
A
Yep, yep.
- [26:58]
C
Which stinks.
- [26:59]
B
Yeah, it's not fun, especially for a specialized position. Like if you're hiring an excavator operator or a mason or something along those lines, you really want to see what they can do. Because anyone could say, oh yeah, I can run an excavator, no problem, but I want to see how proficient you are in the machine, how safe you are in the machine.
- [27:21]
A
Yep, exactly. And there's no interview question that's going to are you safe? Yeah, I'm safe. You know, there's no interview safe.
- [27:27]
B
Yeah.
- [27:28]
A
It's going to be that. Yeah. So on, you know, circling back to more of your business journey, like, what would you say is the most difficult challenge you have overcome in your business?
- [27:40]
B
I would say the most difficult challenge we've had to overcome. It's funny that we're talking right now is because it's been the software piece for us. We've gone through multiple different softwares until finally landing on synced up that we realized was so easy to use. We ran so lean for so long without a software that I realized we weren't making the kind of money we should be making. And now after having implemented the software, I think our rates have gone up a good bit and it solved a lot of problems. So, Emily, I don't know if you have anything to add to this or if you think something different. I think the software journey has really been like a three year process for us to almost fully roll it out.
- [28:26]
C
Yeah, yeah, I would agree. The software was a point of contention over the past three to four years. As we started to implement it and realized that it wasn't working. We're like, well, we've already invested so much money into this software, now we realize it's not working for us. And you know, we pleaded with the other software companies like, hey, this isn't working for this reason, this reason, this reason. And it really wasn't received well. So we started exploring other options and we landed on a second software, which was great because we got a call from the vice president of that software company like three days after our initial conversation with them and we were like, wow, this is going to be great. Like we're going to be able to give real time feedback and they're going to implement it, they're going to be able to help us. We never, with that software, we never got past the setup phase. We were never able to set up one estimate within their software. It was so horrible. We couldn't comprehend. There were so many different pricing types. Probably like, what would you say, Dan? Like 10 different pricing types for one work area.
- [29:48]
B
Yeah, I couldn't really understand it. It was just, it was too complicated of a process to pull together a standard estimate.
- [29:57]
C
Right. So then we're like, okay, we'll try synced up. It was a recommendation by the person who we ended up who ended up joining our team as the sales and estimator that Dan mentioned prior to this. It was a recommendation from him and we were like, sure, we'll try it. I met with Fred at the budget and like two days later we were busting out estimates. I'm like, this is great. And you can. I review the budget pretty frequently. So you can go ahead and implement a new budget and a new budget. Or you could have like right now, I always have what I call a working budget. So that's like, if any real time changes come up, I implement them into the working budget. And then at the end of the month, I'll set that active and I'll archive the one that's currently active so that we're continuously updating our labor rate accordingly or our overhead recovery accordingly or our material markups accordingly so that we do continue towards our goal for the year.
- [31:06]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:07]
C
So, yeah, I would agree with Dan that the software was a long, costly process for us, dollar wise, time wise. But we've landed on a really good one and we're excited to talk about it and to give back to you because we feel like you've given us so much, so much free time, so
- [31:29]
B
much structure until we landed on Synced Up. I feel like the two years we were going back and forth with other softwares, we were growing, but I feel that we weren't growing as much as we could have been because our costs were not accurately reflected in our budget and we weren't accurately estimating and our production rates were all jumbled up. So I feel like that's where we really got hung up for a couple years. Yeah.
- [31:56]
A
Yeah. And I think a lot of what you're talking about, like, it was slowing us down. It was preventing growth. It was hard. Like, those are all soft costs that are very hard to like, prove on a bank statement or like. Yeah, we didn't make XYZ because it's like, it's the hidden soft cost of an inefficient process. And I think if you looked, if you switch to an analogy of a crew working out in the field, installing a patio or a landscape or whatever, you can very quickly understand why one crew can get the job done in half the time as another crew through just efficient methods and all that. And the same rules apply to most any portion of business and the backend operations with a software product to help streamline that included. And so there's also a point where you don't really know what you don't know. Like, if you haven't lived through the experience that you guys have lived through, you don't really know what's possible. And so I'm curious, like, how would you describe, to double click on this question, this topic, how would you describe the inefficiency or the pain or the cost that you were enduring before you finally landed on something that worked for you, like, like pretend you're talking to someone that hasn't yet arrived where you are with a good system. Like, what would you say are the telltale signs that, oh yeah, I'm paying that hidden tax. What's it look like in real life?
- [33:21]
B
So I have a good example. So in the couple years that we were trying to land on a software, we were not job costing at all, at all, at all. We were pulling together proposals, completing the job and sending invoices, not looking at material costs, not looking at labor costs, and not factoring in overhead. So I think that was a huge issue for us prior to synced up because that was preventing us from being able to blossom, you know, within our states.
- [33:51]
C
Yeah. I would describe it as overwhelming. Dan is, is very intelligent and he's been doing this, like he said, since he was 12 years old. So he's very good at creating, optimizing a route in his head. He doesn't need synced up or any other software to be able to do that. Now, with that said, nobody else on our team can do that.
- [34:18]
A
Right.
- [34:20]
C
It's only him. And he would do that within Excel. He would literally optimize a route within Excel. And I'm like, how did you do this? It's incredible how his brain works because he's been doing this for so long. But even with that skill that he had, it was becoming overwhelming just using spreadsheets for everything. And then when we really noticed it, we put in a lot of hours. Dan and I do. We probably put in 80, maybe 90 hours a week. But for a long time we would put those hours in and our neighbors who had a software, they would be taking Saturday, Sunday off, they would be going home at 5:30pm and I'm like, what the heck? Like, do they not care about their business? Right. But really it was that they had a software and we were doing all of this extra work that they didn't have to do because they had a software doing it for them.
- [35:23]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:25]
C
Saving 10 steps for one task, whereas we had to do those 10 steps for that task, plus 10 steps for the other task, plus 10 steps for the other task. That's when I really started noticing it. I'm like, we're overwhelmed and we're putting all this work in this time, and these guys just get home and we
- [35:48]
B
have no idea what our jobs cost.
- [35:51]
A
Right, Right. Yeah. I can only imagine.
- [35:56]
B
Go ahead, Wes.
- [35:57]
A
I was just saying what I'm hearing in your replies is that not only is it, you know, whatever you want to call it is the expert's dilemma, or sure, you can do it, but you're also the only person that can do it, the key person factor. And it's not scalable because it's eventually, as you grew, eventually there was a ceiling to how much Everybody only has 24 hours in a day. And sure, you can go from 8 hours a day to 10 hours a day to 12 hours a day to 14 hours a day, but eventually you tap out. Eventually there's a limit to that. And so if you want to break beyond that, then figuring out how to get somebody else to do what you do is the only way through. And usually going through that process of figuring out how to get somebody else to do what you do, AKA that means building a system. And usually when you have a system built, it also means that it's more efficient for you. So like now Dan can spend less time on it. And so it just, the leverage just compounds on itself when you start focusing on solving problems at their root instead of putting band aids on symptoms and, you know, that kind of thing.
- [37:00]
C
Yeah, agreed.
- [37:05]
A
What would you say is the best advice you have ever been given? And pick whatever you want to pick, whether it's business, life, entrepreneurship, family, you're a couple in business, you know, what is the. What is the best advice you've ever been given?
- [37:24]
B
I like the piece of advice that some people have probably heard before, but most people underestimate what they can do in a year, overestimate what they can do in 10 years. And I think when you set goals for the year, a lot of goals are oftentimes lofty and you might not meet every goal. Hopefully you do. But if you set it, most people aren't setting a 10 year goal. If you really set a goal for the direction you would like your business to go in in the next 10 years, a lot of times you can hit that by like the 3, 4, 5 year mark. It's incredible. I was never really a goal setter until Emily came into the business and we set up some Miro charts online and that was probably three or four years ago now. But looking back for our yearly goals three, four years out, we've like nailed every single goal. It's incredible.
- [38:17]
A
Yeah. And sometimes, sometimes if even the only purpose of the goal is so that you can look back on it later and be like, oh, we crushed it. Like the thing that I was dreaming about 18 months ago, we crushed it, you know, That's a rewarding feeling.
- [38:33]
B
It is, yeah. Yeah. It's cool to look back on. So whatever you set for goals, make sure to keep those somewhere so you can reference them and see that you actually did crush the goals. So you can set new goals that are even more lofty than the ones you thought you wouldn't be able to achieve before.
- [38:49]
A
Yep. Amen.
- [38:51]
C
Just so you know, Weston, I got a lot of flack for that. They were like, why are we writing this down? Why? The law of attraction is not real. Like, why do we need to write them, Write them down and, like, store them in our desk? And then, like, 10 months later, I'm like, hey, guys, I'm like, can you get out your paper? Please? Get out your paper, and let's take a look at where we're at.
- [39:12]
A
Yeah.
- [39:13]
C
And they're going. They're crossing them off, and they're looking at me, and they're like, oh, my gosh, we accomplished every single one of these goals in the time frame that we set or sooner.
- [39:26]
A
That's amazing.
- [39:28]
C
Yeah, it really, you know, it works.
- [39:31]
A
And I just want to tell you guys, just from the conversations that I've had with you two, it doesn't surprise me at all to hear you guys say that, because you're just doing a lot of things right doing in business. It's not like. It's not like the people that win are any smarter or any often. They're not even any harder working. It's just that they are very jealous with where they spend their time, where they focus. And it's so easy as an entrepreneur to focus on the wrong thing and miss the boat on other things that really matter. And often they're hidden soft costs that aren't very obvious. Like, it might be right in front of me and you can see it, but I can't really see it, those kinds of things. And just in this conversation, like, you've. You've mentioned updating your budget. Like, you're. You're doing job cost and like, you're doing all the things that you might feel are just like, well, yeah, of course we have to do that. We have a business to run. But I can tell you from, you know, traveling the country and to speaking to contractors all over that what you're doing is. Is the exception, not the norm. And kudos to you. Like, congrats to you for the way you're. You're focusing on that and the way you are being intentional about your goals, because, I mean, it's it's evident. It's obvious. You can see it. Even though I don't. You know, even though I'm not sitting in your office right now, you can just tell when the team's got it and you guys have it.
- [41:01]
C
Thank you, Austin. When I joined this. This team, I was like, you know what? I'm not going to live this life of, like, not knowing what's going to happen. I'm very proactive, and I'm very. I want to know what the outcome is. And I know that a lot of people in this business, it can be here one day and it can be here the next day, and then the third day, it's, like, down here. And I was like, that's not going to work for me. So I'm just going to work alongside you, and we're going to do this thing, and we're going to make it more like. Either like this or like this.
- [41:43]
A
Yeah.
- [41:44]
C
Where we know what we're gonna expect, but we are growing.
- [41:47]
A
Yeah.
- [41:49]
C
And real quick, I'll just share with you my piece of advice, which is just to know what you're signing up for, because I think a lot of people jump into an entrepreneurial role because they have that. That spirit, that drive, but you have to know what you're signing up for, because there's a lot of sacrifice associated. There's a cost associated with living a life like this, and you need to be willing to. To pay the price, to pay the cost, to. To make the sacrifices. And the only. I always say, the only way through is through. And I always think about this when we're in the winter and I'm shoveling like a root, and I'm like, oh, shoot. The only way through is through. Like, the only way to get this walkway shoveled is to just shovel this walkway. And I always think about it, typically only during the winter because it's. It's hard manual labor. The only way through is through. The only way to, like, live this entrepreneurial lifestyle and run a business is to. To actually do it, to pay the price and to show up every day and make it not about yourself. A lot of people sign up for a business, and they. They do it because they're like, oh, I want to work four days a week, or I want time, or I want. I want financial freedom. Right. But it can't always be about yourself. It has to for me. It has to be about everybody else. What can I do for the people on our team, the people in the community that we're working with? Doing projects for. And then all of those things that we might want as entrepreneurs, they come in time.
- [43:37]
A
Yeah.
- [43:38]
C
But it has to be like very delayed gratification.
- [43:41]
A
Yes.
- [43:41]
C
In order to be successful.
- [43:44]
A
What you're saying makes me think of when people say it must be nice. Well, look at the person that you're mentioning, looking at and mentioning it must be nice and ask yourself, what are they doing that you're not? What cost are they paying for that you're not paying for? And would you be willing to pay the same cost? It's such a part of our human nature to want something and not be willing to pay the cost for it. And like, to your point, a successful entrepreneurial journey has a lot of pain and very difficult moments in it. And there's also rewards that come with it. And generally speaking, social media culture, you see the rewards, you see the visible things and you don't see the, like you're saying Saturdays and Sundays in the office trying to, you know, get done what you need to get done. The, the costs associated with it. So, yeah, very, very, very good advice. I appreciate that perspective a lot. Yeah, of course, if you could go back to when you started and I'll ask both of you, like Dan when you started and Emily when you joined, you know, like, what is one thing you would do differently?
- [45:01]
B
I'd say there's two things. I would have implemented a software system a lot sooner. The right software system. And I think when I first started, I undervalued my services. And I feel like, at least in our area, that's a huge problem because there's a lot of people undervaluing their services, which is bringing the overall cost that clients associate with the service package down. And I think if everyone could just value the services for what they're worth. If you're focused on quality, reflect that in the pricing. Because I was, I've always been focused on quality and I think, you know, if I focus on the cost associated with doing the job and the price reflected a lot sooner, we could be in a little bit different position today. I think it all comes down to the customer experience and there is a price associated with that. If, if clients, you know, you can find clients that are willing to pay the additional cost for that one on one experience that a lot of contractors don't provide to the customers. A lot of guys are just quantity. Let's, let's rip out as many jobs as we can. Let's get as large of a route as we can, but you can make the same amount of Money off fewer clients or a smaller route by providing a better experience and you end up building your brand, building a stronger brand at the same time.
- [46:24]
A
Yep, yep.
- [46:25]
B
So that's what I would have done differently from the start.
- [46:28]
A
Very much agree. I think that's just, especially in our industry, the trades. You know, it's so easy to get into the industry, get into the business because you know how to do the work and not value, not know how other people value the work that you do, the service that you provide. And we, we, we talk ourselves into undervaluing our own services when, when, you know, adding value versus discounting, like when you add value, there's, there's, there's a market for that higher value product. And to your, to your point, it's definitely a nicer, I'll, I'll just say a nicer business owner experience providing that high value service like that.
- [47:11]
C
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So what's something that I would change if I could go back or something I would do differently? I've spent a lot of time in the past year focus on the, the books, you know, how we reflect expenses, stuff like that, but also the, the, the balance sheet of the company and how can we grow this book value or enterprise value of the company. And I, I wish that I looked at that sooner. I wish that I got more involved with it because I feel like I'm three or four years behind on it. Although like Dan said, you, you underestimate what you can do.
- [47:57]
A
Yeah.
- [47:57]
C
In a year and overestimate what you can do in three months. So it's, it's something like that where that's a long process to go through and it takes many, many years to get things dialed in where you want them and how you want them to look and how you want them to be. A lot of delayed gratification that I wish I could just go in and like type the numbers myself. You can't do that. So it takes a lot of backend work that nobody ever even sees or really thinks about in this industry. I'm sure there are people who are thinking about it, but a lot of guys who start a business like this and there's girls too, but it's mostly, I would say it's highly saturated with men is because they like the work, they're out there doing the physical labor. They're not on the back end going two plus two is four and how can I make four equal 104, you know, so I think I would have taken a closer look at the books and started to grow the books alongside our goals for the year so that they matched. Because when we're making progress on the goals that we set as a company, you should see that reflected in your book value, your enterprise value. All of, all of that jazz do
- [49:25]
A
you have for, for, for someone that might be listening to what you're saying and be like, okay, what does that look like for a business like mine? Like, do you have a practical. Just like a little example? Like, yeah, this is like, here's an example of what I mean, what we did. You know, Is there anything like that that pops into your mind?
- [49:39]
C
Yeah. So I recently redid the whole chart of accounts. So for people who don't know what a chart of accounts is, it's all of the income and expense accounts that you show on your taxes and, and you use that to file your tax return. And I redid them to be more specific. So before. This is a great, this is a good example. So before this year, we had one income account, and every single type of project, every single type of work funneled in and reflected in this one line, one income line on our books. And now it's broken up so that I can see at the end of the year. This is a, a novice thing, I think, but it, it speaks volumes for small businesses like, like Dan and, and mine. And most guys wouldn't think to do this or most people in the industry wouldn't think to do this right off the rip unless they had a financial background.
- [50:39]
A
Right.
- [50:39]
C
So now it's broken down and I can see how much revenue are we bringing in for design work? How much is design build? How much of that design build is hardscape, how much is enhancement, how much is irrigation, how much is, you know, additional things like fence work. So I can really get a better understanding of where we're at as a company and where we can grow with where we're at. Like, hey, we want to invest more in our design build division of our company. So what does that look like? Do we need better tools? Do we need a whole other setup? Truck trailer tools, guys, people, where do we want to grow? And like, how can we get there? It's almost like the more specific you are on the back end, the better information you have to build a roadmap forward.
- [51:37]
A
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Now it's, it's a great example because, you know, if you're a million dollar business. Oh, great. A million dollars. Well, I can tell that 600,000 of that came from design build, 300,000 of that came from maintenance. You know, and the rest came from enhancements or whatever like that is so. Because then you may, like, wait, I barely even had to do anything to get those enhancements. What if I grew that, like, look at the. Look at the. You know, and your brain actually started solving problems that you didn't even know were there, you know, that are so helpful in, you know, we only have so many cycles. You go every time, you go around another year, you know, you. The opportunity cost of trying to grow, you know, I can grow one portion of the business at a typical 10% net profit, but I can grow this other portion that gives me 30% net profit. Which one do you want to do? What's obvious, you know, but you. You can't tell if you don't make the numbers tell a story. And I think that's one of the things I want to mention about what you just shared, is your numbers should tell you a story. You do not have to be an accountant. You do not have to be a geek or a nerd or a spreadsheet guru. If you are not really, let's just say, numbers savvy, then I would say make sure you get an accountant. And then when you work with the accountant, your posture should be that. My accountant's job is to help me understand what story the numbers tell me. And if I don't understand the story, I don't yet either have the right process or the right accountant. And I think too many contractors view their accountant or whoever's responsible for their books. They view it as a black box. They don't understand anything. They're just like, well, what do I owe in taxes? That's kind of the degree that they get involved, and that's all they care about. And the encouragement I want to kind of build on top of what you just shared is numbers should tell you a story. Because knowledge is power or the potential for power of making good decisions. And when numbers tell a story, like, it's fun, it's invigorating because you're like, you're jazzed up. It's exciting to, oh, I could do this. And it's so much more fun when you feel like you're actually at the steering wheel with both the gas pedal and the brake pedal within your reach, instead of only having sitting in the passenger seat and trying to reach the steering wheel, not really knowing which direction you're heading, you know?
- [53:58]
C
Yeah, yeah. Like. Like you say in software, the better inputs, the better the outputs.
- [54:04]
A
Yep, Yep, exactly. Well, Dan and Emily, I know we're going A few minutes over, so thanks for being gracious with your time. This is. You guys are an amazing team. I. I want to come visit you guys in person someday, and it's. It's obvious to me that you're doing a lot of things right and that you're being very diligent and methodical with how you approach your business, and I think that's a wonderful example that others can look to. So congrats and keep it up. Yeah.
- [54:39]
B
Thanks, Wes. We appreciate it.
- [54:41]
A
Definitely.
- [54:42]
C
Thanks for having us, Weston. And enjoy the rest of your time with your family in Romania.
- [54:47]
A
Thank you. I appreciate that. And I want to. I want to invite you guys to the contractor summit, and we're doing it in Pittsburgh. Maybe you already bought your tickets. I don't know. I should have looked beforehand, but we'd love to have you there. It's in Pittsburgh, September 10th and 11th.
- [55:03]
C
We haven't bought our tickets, but we are gonna be coming.
- [55:05]
A
Okay, awesome. One question before we wrap up. Have you been using AI in any way this year?
- [55:15]
C
Yeah, we have. We have been using leanscaper Solana AI for typical questions, and then we were on the wait list for the AI within synced up. Now, I haven't gone in and tried to connect it to the Claude coworker, but I feel like that's a very exciting thing.
- [55:38]
A
Yes. Speaking of, you know, being excited about what's coming around the corner and all of that, you know, with your business and, like, your goals, like, speaking to your goals, like, man, what's. What's coming around the corner is so exciting, like, because it's not like, I think I. I think maybe the temptation is sometimes to look at what AI can do is, oh, it's magical, and I don't have to do any hard work anymore. And that. It's not that. It's more like. The way I view it is we're solving the same business problem. I have to price my job profitably, and I don't want to waste time doing it, and I want it to be right. We're solving the same business problems, but the way in which you can solve them is so much more effective. And, you know, the. What you're seeing now, where you can connect synced up with Claude, coworker, or whatever other product you want is just the beginning. Like, what. What we're headed to is where you can call your AI assistant up and talk to it while you're driving home from the consultation and have IT build your estimate or record your conversation with your homeowner. And have it create a draft for you based on that, you know, so it's going to be a very, very. The old way, I would say the last 20 years of software have been humans learn how to run a software product where the buttons are and how the workflows work. And in the future, it's going to be so much more accessible, learning curves, so much less, because I don't have to learn how the thing works. I just have to know how to answer the questions and let AI build the product to build the estimate for me. So it's going to be fun.
- [57:10]
C
I thought I saw that. I was like, I can build estimates now too.
- [57:13]
A
There you go. Yeah, like, it learns. It knows you so. Or it knows Dan so you, like Emily can like, walk into the office like, yeah, build an estimate like Dan builds it, you know, so.
- [57:25]
C
Yeah, that's a, that's a good prompt because everybody does it a little bit differently.
- [57:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, exciting things around the corner. And of course, it's always an evolving process. Like what's available in public right now is only scratching the surface of what's coming around the corner. But we want to get the stuff out to you guys as quickly as possible as soon as it has any little bit of value. Like, let's get it out there while we can continue building the bones of, of the whole vision for it.
- [57:52]
B
So, yeah, we love it. It's, you know, it's the future of the industry. So, yeah, yeah, might as well embrace it.
- [58:01]
A
Yes, sir. Amen. Okay, well, thank you very much. Yeah, I can't wait to see you guys in September at the summit. And who knows, maybe by the time that rolls around, we'll be, we'll starting to draft estimates with the AI tool,
- [58:18]
C
hopefully.
- [58:21]
A
Okay, well, have a great rest of your day and I really appreciate you guys doing this.
- [58:26]
B
All right, you too.
- [58:27]
A
Thank you. You betcha.
- [58:28]
C
We'll see you travels.
- [58:29]
A
Thank you.
- [58:30]
C
Bye bye.
- [58:31]
A
Bye bye. Hey, thanks for listening to the Cost of Doing Business show. If you need help with knowing your numbers or you're looking for a better automatic automated system to run estimating and scheduling and job costing or more in your business, just hit me up. You can book a demo@syncedup.com or DM me on Instagram ynkdup, which is spelled S Y N K E D U P. See you on the next one.