Ep 95. The Hard Part of Scaling Nobody Warns You About | Jordan Daneker

Summary

Podcast Summary – The Cost of Doing Business

Episode 95: The Hard Part of Scaling Nobody Warns You About with Jordan Daneker
Date: March 2, 2026
Host: Weston Zimmerman
Guest: Jordan Daneker (Founder, Evolve Design Build)

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Overview of Episode

In this candid and insightful episode, Weston Zimmerman sits down (for the second time) with Jordan Daneker of Evolve Design Build to dissect the hard realities and often-overlooked struggles of scaling a business—particularly when growth means the founder must learn new roles and relinquish control. The conversation traces Jordan’s company journey from a modest $1-2 million operation to an $8 million thriving firm in the green/landscape industry, focusing on the shifting nature of business challenges as you grow. They emphasize the importance of intentionality, cash flow, team building, process, and the humbling realization that as an owner, sometimes you become the biggest obstacle. They also discuss the evolving role of technology, such as AI, in streamlining operations, and challenge common “out-hustle” mentalities that can limit true business sustainability.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

Jordan’s Business Journey & Milestones

• Explosive Growth: When Jordan last appeared, his business was just crossing the $1-2 million mark; now, Evolve Design Build has grown to $8 million in revenue (04:00).
• Team Scale: Staff of 28, heavy focus on growth and people investment (02:10).

The Realities & Struggles of Scaling

• Profit versus Revenue: Revenue growth is “vanity”; sustainable profit and cash flow are what matter (04:09).
  • Jordan: "Revenue is one thing, but it's what you keep... profit typically does not lie." (04:04)
• Cash Flow as #1 Killer: Even with job growth and sales, cash flow mismanagement can topple a company fast (04:40).
• Working Harder for Less: As costs and employee demands rise, growth alone doesn’t guarantee more take-home—“I’m working harder for less money” (05:21).

Challenges of Business Leadership at Different Scales

• Founder as the Bottleneck: Jordan candidly admits, “The biggest problem I have right now is me.” (07:40)
  • Early on, the founder must create everything; at scale, clinging to control can inhibit progress. Now, “I am not needed. I’m in the way a lot.” (08:15)
  • Emotional struggle: “It's difficult for you to not feel needed... I feel like I don't fit in.” (09:20)
• Transition to Vision, Culture & Strategy: Jordan pivots to focus on vision, core values, and team well-being vs. daily operations (12:04).
• Letting Go & Pride in Team: “I'm very proud of them... It's just weird. It's like, can I leave? Would I be fine? Yeah, absolutely. Do I want to do that? No.” (09:23)

Evolving Problems at Each Stage

• Early Stage: The problem was “trying to out-hustle” and survive (17:02). Jordan describes himself as not a process guy then, running on hustle instead of strategy.
• Now: Main job is getting out of the way, focusing on cleaning up processes, sharpening job costing, improving profit margins, and building a better work culture (11:04, 14:06).
• Quotes:
  • “The battle you conquered last year is no longer the battle you need to conquer this year.” – Weston (07:05)

The Myth of Out-Hustle

• Owner-Operators’ Trap: The urge to simply “work harder” or longer leads to burnout and neglected personal life (17:14).
• Invisible Costs: Hustle comes at the expense of health, relationships, and long-term sustainability.
• The Industry’s Limiting Belief: Many business owners are stuck thinking they can win by working more, but Jordan and Weston argue the era of “out-hustle” is dying (19:01, 25:32).

Embracing Systems, Process & Accountability

• Importance of Process: “The success of process affords me the things I want: sustainability, profitability, culture, and a family life.” (17:02)
• Accountability as the Differentiator: “The biggest thing for these guys that think they can out-hustle... that way of doing business is dying because people are used to Amazon.” (20:53)
• What Jordan Learned from Others: “...Maybe they weren't perfect at everything, but they had a process behind it.” (22:18)

People, Culture & Team Investment

• Team Buy-In: Genuine care for employee well-being and defining cultural values is critical to business health (14:39, 16:06).
  • Example: Jordan relates helping an employee achieve home ownership as a highlight, “Did I directly impact that? Maybe not, but I played a role in it.” (16:04)
• Listening & Surveying the Team: Using anonymous surveys to understand staff needs, shifting from an assumption-driven to a data-driven and empathetic approach (12:20).
• Success Defined by Team Success: “If you can be a part of [your employees’ best lives]... to me, that's success.” (15:57)

Owner’s Mindset & Humility

• Intentionality over Brains: “Intentionality will kick the butt of smarts any day.” – Weston (10:46)
• Be the Dumbest in the Room: Encourage hiring smarter, more skilled people to level up the business (36:02).
• Welcome Learning, Even from ‘Dumb’ People: “I'll tell you, I've learned a lot of good things from dumb people.” (24:34)
• Always Ask “Why”: Essential to understand the rationale behind team ideas, building a culture of inquiry, not ego (34:35).

Delegation, Succession & Ego Management

• Stepping Away: Measure of maturity is being able to step away; “greatest success of a business [is when] you could step away for 30, 60 days.” (09:23)
• Strategic Hires: When growing, invest in top-tier talent even if it feels financially risky. “Go hire the absolute top-tier talent that's like 30% overpriced. Because you will make more money on it.” (36:23)

Technology, AI, and New Efficiencies

• Leveraging AI for Systems & Templates: Jordan offers specific advice on using AI tools (Gemini, CoPilot, Plod) to quickly generate job templates and scopes of work—demolishing the “I don’t have time” excuse for documentation (28:39–30:56).
  • “Now with AI, you can build your templates... There’s really no excuse.” (28:55)
• Voice Notes, Automation & Daily Routines: Using AI to offload daily notes, follow-ups, and communication—greater efficiency and process adherence (30:56–31:58).
  • “It’s hard to get in the habit... but once you realize the ease of success with the information available right now, it’s more doable than ever.” (31:59)

Pricing, Value, and Mindset Blockers

• You Can’t Save Your Way to Profitability: Cutting tools and tech to “save” often hurts more than helps; focus on what produces returns (29:52).
  • “Why would you cancel the thing that's going to make sure you make money… Cancel your gym membership because you can walk around the block.” (26:50)
• Facing the Truth: Many contractors refuse to examine their real profitability, preferring "not to know". Jordan and Weston urge a mindset shift from ignorance to financial clarity (46:46–48:22).
  • “It's the contractor that refuses to ever shine the flashlight into the dark closet.” – Weston (46:47)
• Trial and Error is Expensive: Years of “learning the hard way” can be skipped by leveraging proven systems and experience (49:56–50:44).
  • “In this day and age, there is no excuse to plug right into what you've already learned for 20 years. And in my year one, I am standing on your shoulders.” (50:19)

Founder’s Philosophy & SynkedUp’s Vision

• Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution: Technology and business operations will always evolve, but the commitment to solving customer problems remains central (40:34–41:40).
• Role of AI & Future of Tools: Weston predicts software tools will become as frictionless as “just talking to it” rather than navigating lists and drop-downs, making “doing it right” even easier for contractors (43:12–44:59).

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

On Being “the Problem” as a Leader

• “The biggest problem I have right now is me. When I went to Tussie…I was needed to get through that growth…Now fast forward… I am not needed. I’m in the way a lot in the daily operation.”
  — Jordan (07:40)

On Profit vs. Growth

• “Revenue is one thing, but it’s what you keep…profit typically does not lie.”
  — Jordan (04:04)
• “Cash flow [is] the Number one killer business.”
  — Weston (04:40)

On Giving Up Control

• “It’s difficult for you to not feel needed…I feel like I don’t fit in.”
  — Jordan (09:20)
• “Greatest success of a business [is when] you could step away for 30, 60 days.”
  — Jordan (09:23)

On the “Out-Hustle” Trap

• “We think we can just hustle harder…Somewhere you’re gonna suffer…Whether your health or your marriage.”
  — Jordan (17:02)
• “Owner-operators…try to out hustle, [but] you can’t.”
  — Jordan (19:01)

On Learning from Others & Embracing Change

• “I’ve learned a lot of good things from dumb people…How about what not to do?”
  — Jordan (24:34)
• “Don’t be married to your own idea.”
  — Weston (34:01)
• “So many people resist change, and they have no reason for it other than they’re lazy.”
  — Weston (33:22)

On Intentionality Over Intelligence

• “Intentionality will kick the butt of smarts any day.”
  — Weston (10:46)

On the Power of Team and Culture

• “If you can be a part of [your employees’ best lives]…to me, that’s success.”
  — Jordan (15:43)

On Facing the Numbers

• “It’s the contractor that refuses to ever shine the flashlight into the dark closet.”
  — Weston (46:47)
• “The more you think you don’t need [Synked Up], probably the more you do need it.”
  — Weston (49:52)

On the Mission-Driven Mindset

• “You are so genuine, you know, you don’t care if somebody buys your product or not. You care about the success of them and their business.”
  — Jordan to Weston (53:52)
• “Fall in love with the problem, not your solution, because the solution changes.”
  — Weston (40:34)

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Notable Segments & Timestamps

• [04:00] — Revenue vs. profit, the danger of glamour growth, and Jordan’s journey
• [07:40] — Founder as the bottleneck and emotional challenges of scaling
• [12:20] — Importance of surveying the team and culture for business health
• [17:02] — Out-hustling: warning about the sustainability of non-process driven business
• [20:53] — Why the old “do everything yourself” method is failing against today’s customer expectations
• [28:39] — How to leverage AI tools for fast, accurate business process documentation
• [34:01] — Embracing change and not taking process critique personally
• [40:34] — Mission-focused technology evolution and SynkedUp’s adaptive philosophy
• [46:47] — Mindset shift: Facing the realities of finance and why contractors avoid the truth
• [53:52] — The heart behind SynkedUp, values-driven leadership, and fostering genuine contractor success

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Final Takeaways

• Growing a business means the owner eventually has to become the biggest advocate for clarity, process, culture, and self-management—and be humble/pragmatic enough to get out of their own way.
• Process and accountability are non-negotiable for scaling and surviving today’s consumer expectations and rising costs.
• Intentionality, adaptability, and team investment win over raw hustle, ego, or arbitrary cost-cutting.
• Technology like SynkedUp, coupled with new AI tools, are rapidly lowering barriers to getting your numbers right and building sustainable businesses—if you’re willing to face the data and do the work.
• The most successful owners are those willing to question themselves, invite smarter people onto their team, and “fall in love with the problem, not the solution.”

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For any contractor feeling stuck in the grind, this episode pulls back the curtain on the reality that growth brings new, more personal and strategic challenges—but also greater rewards for those embracing change, clarity, and intentional leadership.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Cost of Doing Business podcasts. Things on Instagram are pretty shiny, but here we're going to get to the reality behind the scenes on the hard journey of growing a business so we can all learn from each other. I'm your host, Weston Zimmerman, co founder of Synced Up. Been in the green industry my whole life. Let's get into it. Welcome back to another episode of the Cost of Doing Business podcast. I'm catching up with Jordan Dan here again. So I think this might be the first time I'm interviewing the same person twice on maybe.

[B]

Maybe the pleasure is mine.

[A]

I. You know what I remember about the last episode when I. When you were out there to visit Tessy Landscape.

[B]

That was what, three?

[A]

No, 22.

[B]

Oh, yeah. It was a minute. It was a minute. It was a minute. Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, I had set. We were setting up on that Tassi landscaping job and there was this flower sitting on the table and it had like a. A blade hanging right in front of your face on the camera view I had never even seen. This time we got a free view of your face.

[B]

Send it. You know, I'd get. I've gained a little weight since then, dude. You know what I mean? That's. That's what it is. Camera makes me look better. Thank God.

[A]

But anyway, a lot has happened since we last done podcast, so. So for if you don't know Jordan and his company Evolve, Design, Build, I'll let you give a proper intro, but I'll just say this before you do. That is. So you. Were you under 2 million? You were just a little over a million when you. When you were up there visiting?

[B]

Oh, close to. Close to. Hard to say. It's been up. Feel like it's been a blur.

[A]

Yeah, well, it has been a blur because Jordan's been on an absolute tear since then in the four or five years since then. And just last year in September, we did our annual contractor summit event at his location. So we toured it all that. So this is the man, the myth, the legend from Outer Banks. So, Jordan, pleasure to have you back on.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, I'm glad to be here.

[A]

Give everybody a bit of a picture of what your company looks like today.

[B]

Design, build, firm. Like everybody, you know, trying to. Trying to make it happen. Trying to put out, you know, beautiful projects, staff of 28, a lot of rapid growth, the need for cash flow and challenges. You know, I would say we're definitely thriving. Got a great team invested in our people. And you can do it, man. That's what I will tell you after. After coming to Tussie and talking to me now, all I can tell you is if you're thinking about it, you can do it.

[A]

Well, what I remember from that visit when you came up to. So the backstory on that is Jordan messaged me on. Was it my Instagram?

[B]

YouTube? Instagram was still, like. It had to be a minute because Instagram was, like, not that big. It was still a big deal. It was like, really early in. Just like, you know, if you started knowing who Jeremy Swihart and Andy was, you're like, you were in it. You know what I mean? You know, I think I got him to sign, like, somewhere around here. No, no, it was. It was YouTube I used to enjoy. You were building water features. He's actually building water features.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. Yes. So anyway, he messaged me asking if you come up and see Tussie and spend some time. Yeah, sure, whatever. Come on up. Spend a few days while. I don't know that I thought about it that much then, you know, but when I came down to visit you last year in preparation for the Contract Summit event.

[B]

Yeah? I was like, when was that? August.

[A]

It was August.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, August.

[A]

I was like, oh, I understand now. Like, Jordan was on a mission to. He came up to Tussie Landscaping, he had questions mapped out in his head, and he went home and he did the things that he saw that he wanted to copy or whatever, emulate from what he saw at Tussie. And I think. I mean, I'll just say it. He's blown past Tussie and revenue at this point.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

It's true. That's a fact.

[B]

Oh, maybe. Maybe, man. Well, listen, revenue is one thing, but it's what you keep. You know what I mean?

[A]

What's that quote? Revenue is vanity profits or sanity.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. No, and it has been. We've had some very. You know, here's the thing about. Profit typically does not lie, right? Okay. You look around, see the health of your employees and your business. Right? Okay. It's. It is. You can hide some of that to an extent, right? There's loans, there's credit, there's all these things. But in order to run a sustainable and successful company, you know, profit's required. It's required. It's. You can't. You have to have the cash flow. You know, you have to run.

[A]

It's a lot of ways a business can die, but some studies will show you that, like, the Number one killer business is cash flow.

[B]

Cash flow. Cash flow. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So you can be doing a lot of things right, but if you're not managing your cash flow, especially in high end design build jobs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That can really hurt.

[B]

Oh, yeah. No. 100%, no. And it's been a tough year. You know, it's funny because, like, a lot of people see this growth, like kind of to your point. You're, you're like, oh, man, it's been a blur. It's, you know, bulls. I don't know what the word you use was. You're like, you just tore through it, right? Yeah. Now it's like, okay, it's been a difficult season at evolve. Right. Like, are we doing well? Absolutely. Right. Are we selling jobs? Absolutely. But I'm working harder for less money.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And like, nobody, nobody's talking, like, talking like that. I'm, I'm working. I'm out there. They say, what do you mean you're working hard for less money? I'm like, okay, well, the cost of doing business is at all time high. Okay. Employees require more. Why? Because it takes a lot to eat today. Okay. Cost living's up. Right. And so I'm working for less money. And you can go out of business faster that way. Do you know what I mean? If you don't know your numbers and you're not intentional about your thought process, it is easier to go out of business in an economy like this. So you have to be, you have to, you know, really be on it. You have to be intentional and you have to be. You know the word we were talking about earlier? Confident. You have to be confident.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's tough.

[A]

Salesman. Like, if you don't have it, like, your clients will smell that on you like a shark smells blood and water.

[B]

They will. And there's a big difference between arrogance. Right. I tell that to people. You know, there are a lot of arrogant salesmen.

[A]

Fake confidence. You can't fake confidence is arrogance.

[B]

It is. It is. And I will tell you this about our clients. At least for us, in a design build, they didn't get to be able to afford a 300 outdoor living space by not being a smart person. I can promise you that. Maybe a pool here and there. We work for all walks of life. Right. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm just saying, though, your, your clients that are spending money right now in a down economy are your wealthier clients, ones that cash. And they're not stupid, you know, so it's just a. It's a different market. You have to be changing. That's the name of my business. Evolve. Right. That was always why I was, you know, when I was looking, when I transitioned and I came up with Evolve, you know, that was the thing. We're always changing. We're always evolving. We're thinking about why maybe what we did last year didn't work this year. Right.

[A]

To your point on that, like, what would you say was your biggest challenge when you came up to visit Tussie four years ago as a little bit less than a $2 million business versus what you perceive to be your biggest challenge today as a seven or whatever million dollar business? Like what? What? Like what I want people to understand to your point about evolving is the battle that you conquered last year is no longer the battle you need to conquer this year.

[B]

Yeah, 100%, you know. No, that's a great question.

[A]

What? What?

[B]

Well, it's funny because, like, let's. Let's take two years ago.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And let's. Let me start with now. What's my biggest problem? The biggest problem I have right now is me. Okay? The biggest.

[A]

You're a good guy in all this.

[B]

No, I'm a huge problem. I'm a huge problem. Right. Let me explain. Right. Okay. When I went to Tussie, okay, I wasn't the biggest problem because I was needed. I was needed to get through that growth. I needed to implement things, okay? So let's look at how I got from 2 to. Let's see, we did close to $8 million. Okay. I was needed every step of the way because I needed to create those positions. Right. Whether it was administrative, foreman's warehouse. Right. Procurement. I needed to create those systems and processes. Okay? So I was very much needed. Very important part of the business. Now fast forward to today. I am not needed. I'm in the way a lot in the daily operation. I'm in the way. I'm in the lot. In fact, I would argue, and I hate this, I hate that I'm saying this, and I'm glad that I'm saying this because our team is so great at what they do. They don't need me. I sell. Yes. I am the primary sales guy right there. They would just assume have me out selling. I get in the way and I'm like, let's do this, let's do that. They're like, we got it. We've got a process. And they've got a process that I created that for some reason I want to screw up. I Can't. They're like, we already do this this way. And it works. It works. So, like, I look at my problems today, and I'm like, I'm the problem. So, like, I remember we talked a little bit about when I got here. I was like, what are you going to be doing this year? And I'm like, well, I'm going to promote. I'm going to try to get out of the way and promote. It is difficult for me.

[A]

It's difficult for you to not feel needed.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, dude. I feel like I don't fit in. Like, I'll be like. I'll be like. I almost like, it's like that guy that shows up to the party and nobody wants to hang out with, and I'm like, wait a minute. This is my show. Like, what's going on? Yeah. Like, they got it. Like, they're kind of like, they don't need me, and until they need me. And then I like to. I almost, like, find myself when they need me, telling them why they still need me, you know? And I'm like, why am I doing that? Like, I should be. I'm very proud of them. Right. I'm very proud of them. But it's just weird. It's like. I don't know. I mean, it's. It. Can I leave? Like, what do they say? What does the greatest, like, success of a business look like? You could step away for 30, 60 days. Right. What fishing does. Right. I can do that. Okay. Would I get a few phone calls? I'm not going to tell you. I wouldn't. Right. But would I be fine? Yeah, absolutely. 100%. Do I want to do that? No.

[A]

I love that. Right. There is something that 90% of his small business owners never achieve.

[B]

Sure. Maybe they don't. It's. And that's what's weird, is, like, I don't think of myself as a smart guy. Like, people will ask me what you do. I'm like, look, I'm an idiot. I tell people all the time. Like, I just, you know, I. I like what I do and I'm intentional. I've always been like that. I feel like that's what makes me a good salesperson. I'm very intentional with my thought process and what I want the client to achieve. Right. And so I'm intentional with my business, and that's put me where I'm at. It doesn't mean you have to be smart to be intentional. Genuine people aren't necessarily smart people, but they're trustworthy, I think.

[A]

To your point, I think you are very smart, but to your point, your intentionality. Intentionality will kick the butt of smarts any day.

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Well, yeah. And you have to want to.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Like just ripping off the band aid. Stop overanalyzing and just do what you already know needs to be done.

[B]

Sure, sure. No, and it's. It's weird, man. It's, you know, it's like trying to find my purpose. And like, you know, everybody talks about growth, and I think we were talking about this, and I'm not really trying to grow the design build side of my company right now. I'm really focusing in on. I worked on my core values, you know, which is something I've always wanted to do. I worked on that. And where. Where we are at. Where we're at as a season, I like to say, like, where we at as a season? Are we. Are we in the season where we're growing? Are we in the season where we're working on profit? Are we in the season, we're working on, like, synced up or. And we are. Right. We're in this season where we're working on synced up in terms of cleaning our job costing up so much. So, like, what does that look like? Well, we're putting out beautiful projects. Are we going to build another million dollars in revenue or are we going to clean up $7 million in revenue? And for me, I would argue that cleaning up is more important for us right now. Right.

[A]

It's less attractive.

[B]

Yeah. 100. Yeah.

[A]

It's like you're down in the trenches in the mud cleaning.

[B]

Not cool.

[A]

It's way more snazzy to go out there and sell the other million.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's the. That's the thing. So to your point, you're looking at it very pragmatically with, like, clouds. Honestly, where's my better ROI with my time and energy?

[B]

Well, it's not cool either. It's not like, oh, did I put out this next best project? Like, I, you know, we're here. What? We're at the pool and spa show. Right? Okay. And like, I, A year ago or even like two years ago, I was like, how many pools did I put in, people, how many pools do you put in? How many pools do you put in? And be like, well, I put in, you know, 35 to 45 pools the year before last. Now I'll put in this year, 40 to 50 pools. Right. Like, and I'm like, why am I even saying that, that's like, okay, does it really matter? I'm trying to like, figure out what matters. And what matters to me is the health of my business. Right. Health is cash flow, profitability. Right. What is the business health in terms of my culture? Right. I've always cared about culture. I've been great at that. Right. But my idea of what they want, it could be different from what they want. So, like, we're doing more surveys. Right. We did a survey the other day about like work weeks and work schedules. Right. And it's anonymous survey monkey. Like, I. If you asked me two years ago if I was going to put a survey out, I'd be like, no, I'm not going to put a survey out. Like, they love me. Well, I don't know that I'm assuming that. I know, like, they see me, I'm the boss. Right. But, like, I'm trying to understand what makes them happy because to me, that's success. Like, you know, success is measured in so many different ways. And, you know, what's good for me and what's good for Johnny's landscapes might be totally different.

[A]

Yeah. You know, so I care about different things, different values.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, I'm just trying to figure it out, man. Like, there's always. That's the cool thing about business. There's something to always work on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Doesn't have to be revenue.

[A]

So what would you call your problem to solve or the thing that the. The. When you came up with tussing, like today, it's like you're trying to grab. Here's what I heard from. Let me paraphrase it back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is today you've done such a good job of building the team and the processes that run the daily operations that you really can take your hand off the wheel and then that, you know, you've been building for so many years now, you still struggle with feeling of not feeling needed and all that, you know, kind of joking.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, Joe. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, but I get that and it's real. So you're turning to more strategical, getting out ahead with the. Promoting the vision, the culture. Like, because that really is the thing now you're. Now you're serving the team and the process you've built.

[B]

Yeah. Know. Yeah, I mean, I, Dude, I love people. I seriously, I tell my. Like, I. When I do our Christmas party, you know, I always talk at our Christmas party and like, I almost cry. Like, sit. Like, I just like people, I want to see them successful. And like, the thing about people is Everybody's got, like, there was a book I read where they talk about, like, taking out a coloring book or a piece of paper and having them give them some crowns and have them draw what their best life looks like. Right. And it's like, so some people, they might draw a bunch of cash. Let's just say they do. Right. In a yacht. Well, some people might draw a house. Okay. And like two kids. Well, like, if you can be a part of that. Like, the other day, one of my guys took off. I'm not going to say who it was to buy his house. The house has been written and he bought it. He was so pumped. Right. And like, we had some conversations prior to that and to keep his personal stuff out of it, because these podcasts, they go everywhere. Right. Well, I feel like in some way, I'm not gonna say exactly how. Did I give him money? No. The answer is no. No. I contributed to that just by genuine conversations. Right.

[A]

Just consulting.

[B]

Yeah, sure. And like, could he have done that without me? Absolutely. Smart guy. Does he need me? No, but I feel like I was a part of that. Right. We've created a good place from the work. He's always got a good attitude. He shows up here. Right. He bought his first house. His kids are there, they're happy. They. Dude, that to me is like, I don't know, like, okay, did I directly impact that? Maybe not, but I played a role in it. Sure.

[A]

Very little different thing. There's more meaning to it than just.

[B]

Right. So it's like, okay, I got this guy, he works here. I enjoy seeing him. He's got a family. He's doing this, he's doing that. It's that success. Right. I've got other guys that are trying to achieve things, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So do I know everything? Absolutely not. Do they need. Do they absolutely need to come to me with everything? Sure. No. Not everybody's built that way. But I'm just trying to create a good life for those, for the team.

[A]

So back to the 2021, 2022 era.

[B]

Wasn't even thinking about that.

[A]

What was the problem then? Let me ask it this way. What do you think the problem was then and what do you now know the problem?

[B]

I don't know that I understood what the problem was. I think that I just was tired and I was like, there's got to be a better way. I don't think I came with, like, I came with things I wanted to figure out. Right.

[A]

Like, so you were essentially trying to out hustle.

[B]

Yeah, I was yeah, that's a great way to put it. Like, I think that, like, as owner operators, we think we can just hustle harder.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't, like, listen, you can hustle harder in different areas.

[A]

I mean, you can go from 16 hours a day to 18 hours a day.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But you can't go from 24 hours a day to 28 hours a day.

[B]

Yeah. And somewhere you're gonna suffer. Okay. Like, let's be real. You're either your health is gonna suffer, your marriage. Right. Okay. So, like, I would argue that a lot of these gentlemen. Right. Their marriage suffers. Mine was. People don't want to talk about this, but, like, you're a business owner trying to run a business. It was tough. I've been married 15 years. There were some. Some tough, tough things. And my wife is an amazing person, and she is a great caretaker, and she's always got my back. But, like, it was tough. There were days she's like, this is just. You can't keep doing this. Right. And so I think I came to Tussie trying to figure out how to build a better wheel. To put it in, like, caveman terms, like, there's got to be like, I've got this wheel. Right. But it's like, dude, it's all off kilter. It's not aligned. It's not. You know what I mean? It hasn't. It's got a bump in it, whatever, a bulge in it. Maybe it gets a flat occasionally, this wheel. And I wanted to know how to make this wheel be spinning content. Does that make sense? Man, it's really silly. I don't know, but just really trying to figure this out. And I left there, and I, like, some people have to see things. Like, I had Wes Roberts come down recently, and, like, you know, he is like, me, very much like me. We hit it off. Like, you have to see things, you know, I had to see things. I had to see how it worked, and that helped me. Some people are not like that. They're like, I get it, okay? I'm a process guy. I was not. I am not a process guy. I'm a process guy now because the success of process affords me the things I want today, which is sustainability, profitability. Right. Good culture. Right. And a family life, which I'm still working on, you know, for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The out hustle problem, I think, is probably from my perspective, that synced up. I think it's probably the thing that. Was one of the largest things that hold this. Holds this industry back.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Like, People, they're not satisfied with the cash flow or the quality of life elsewhere around the business. And so they just try harder. And there's a lot. There's a lot to be said for hard work, work ethic, grit.

[B]

Oh, 100%.

[A]

Those are very necessary ingredients. But you're not going to win on just that.

[B]

Well, the other thing is, like, larger companies, like, let's just say it's a large. Like, let's say that you're. I'm going to not use me as an example. Or maybe I will use me. Let's say that you're a small company in my neck of the woods. Okay. And you're competing against me. Okay. I'm going to be on it. Right. Because I have the resources to be on it. Right. And I'm very intentional. Right. If you do not at least have your stuff together. Right. In terms of getting things out. Right. Like you, we. Doesn't matter the size of what we are. We have to get the job sold. You don't have sales, you don't have revenue. Yeah. Never mind if it's profitable. Let's just start with there. You have that sales. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So a lot of these guys are. They're saying, well, I can't afford an office person or I can't afford this. But then they're showing up to the sales call or missing the sales call and losing their turn to even bat.

[A]

That's a great example of how you cannot save your way to profit.

[B]

No. So, like, they'll say, like, you're already competing. And that's the thing about today. You're already competing against a guy like me, like, or a guy in another industry. Right. Okay. That he was intentional. He put the systems process. Does it mean that he's a better hardscaper than you? No. Right. But what he is is accountable. He's very accountable. Right. He's gonna do what he's gonna say. He's gonna do it. That's gonna win every time. Never mind. Never mind. If you're a good hardscaper, nobody's going, but he's a really good hardscaper. I don't mind him not showing up on Saturday. Nobody says that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're like, he's a. He's a good hardscaper, but he's very accountable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He must not. Maybe he's not as good as Hardscape Billy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So. So, like, what I would say is like the biggest thing for these guys that think they can out hustle right now that's dying you better get it together. You better figure it out, you better budget for it, because that, that way of doing business is dying because people are used to Amazon. You go to Amazon, you click twice to buy it once, or you click once to put it in your cart. You pick up your groceries in the parking lot, you get your food delivered. Okay. If you think that they're going to wait around for you to get your stuff together, good luck. So, I mean, the thing about it is you raise. If you have to raise your prices in order to afford accountability, you better start there. Yeah.

[A]

So what did you see at Tussie that you felt like you took home?

[B]

Accountability? I mean, man, it was just, it was, it was the fastest ride home. And I've told you this, you know, we've talked about this story like, so many times, and I think people still don't truly get it. Yeah. It's like, you know, you can tell them about it, but it's, you know, Wes explained it when he came to my place. Right. You know, we have people now come and ride with us. Yeah. And which, by the way, Jordan is a.

[A]

A giving person. Like, he was the host of the contractor summit. Then he's inviting people in and showing them everything at their business. Kind of doing the same thing that he did to come up to Dusty, he's doing for other people. So anyway.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's because, like, I realize that you have to see that some people need to see that, right?

[A]

Yeah, there's a ton.

[B]

And like, when I came to Tussie, like, the, the thing about it is maybe they weren't perfect at everything, but they had a process behind it. Right. Maybe it wasn't the process for evolve, but the other thing is it showed that it works. I think that's the thing. Like, I've got a buddy right now. I'm not going to say what industry he's in because he's one of our subs that we use and we don't sub a lot. Electrical, gas, you know, or.

[A]

You're giving me a lot of hints.

[B]

I know. Terrible, right? And I argue with him all the time because he's a friend of mine, right. And he's like, oh, I can't do this, I can't do that, I can't. I'm like, what? Like, dude, literally you. What do you mean? Like, how much revenue are you leaving on the table? Not making these appointments or not scheduling this or not having somebody help you pull permits.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whatever it is. Like, you got to start thinking about your Lost revenue. So I think, like, going to Tussie and just seeing it. I think just seeing. I still argue today that if you can get an opportunity to go see a company, and it takes a lot of, you know, swallowing your pride and asking. Like, I've never been afraid to ask questions. I don't listen. I already know I'm not. I tell people, like, I'm not smart. I don't care about asking questions that you think are not smart. I. They're questions. That's what they're meant to be. If you think I'm not smart by asking them, I would argue that I'm Smarter by asking 100.

[A]

You know, it's the ego, pride.

[B]

Yeah. I just don't care about that. I'm like. I ask dumb questions all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, so, I mean, it's just trying to.

[A]

If I'm wrong, I want to know asap.

[B]

Yeah. And so, like, I do think a lot of these guys, like, I'll be honest, I went to dinner last night with somebody. Well, I didn't go directly with him. We were in a big group and just. They were talking and telling me, you know, all these things. And I, you know, suggested something. Right. Because I'm learning in life to shut up, which is tough. Right. Because I like to talk. And I'm like, I'm just gonna shut up and see where this goes. Right. What I'm realizing is that might have been me. Right. That might have been me in some ways. I don't know how bad I was, but I'd still. Like. I think I know a lot. I think I'm a smart guy, but I'm trying to learn to shut up. And. And then when I hear people talk and they aren't willing to receive things. You're not helping yourself. Yeah. You're just not. And, like, I'm just trying to receive more. I'm trying to learn more. And, you know, it's. It's a humbling thing, and I'm working on it. I'm not gonna say I'm perfect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, because I like to. I like to be an educated guy. You know, I like my craft.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, you know, I'll tell you, I've learned a lot of good things from dumb people.

[A]

Yeah. Just because they're not. Just because you're better at them than them in some area doesn't mean that it's not something else.

[B]

Well, not only that. How about what not to do?

[A]

So tell me why you're doing. Yeah, tell me. Like, okay. You know, you don't. You don't have to be arrogant, but.

[B]

No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So, like, you know, but like going to Tussie and the other thing about tussling is, like, you have to go with people who genuinely are. They care, that are good people. Right. There are businesses every day I've got. I know that they're just strictly goals to be profitable. And they're good at it. They're not. They're not like, I want to build my people to be great. They do not care about that. They're like, you show up on Monday, you leave on Friday, don't clock out a minute early, but they're profitable. I mean, yeah, it depends on where you want to be. You know, where you want to be. It's not me, you know, so, you know, I mean, it's. It's. It's a funny journey business, and I feel like it's getting harder and there's going to be more people left behind with the attitude of, I got to hustle harder because hard work is hard work and it'll only take you so far. But at the end of the day, you're one man, you know, and, you know, maybe in David and Goliath, maybe, yeah, sure, David defeated Goliath with a stone, you know, but there was a lot of men standing behind him that after he did that, felt a lot more confident. So now he had a whole army behind him. Yeah. You know, so it's just, you know, you might have to get up there and show that you can do it, but in order to be sustainable, you're gonna have to have an army. Yeah. You know?

[A]

Yeah. So tell me about the guy that was. You were talking about with. It was like, ah, I think I'm gonna cancel Synced Up. I'm not using the whole thing or whatever.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was. Oh, you just got into the show and I'm like, wow, really? That's the. The thing I would not. Not get rid of. It's funny because, like, I feel like I'm this promo boy for Synced up, and I'm really not. Like, I'm not. That's. It's not about that. Like, okay, is Synced up the right program for you? I would argue that if you're in our industry and you think it's not the right program, you aren't putting in the work. I'd be shocked to hear that. If you are in our industry and it's. And you would genuinely say it's not in the program. I want to see how you're using it. That would be my first question.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also, how are you using it? Yeah. Because, like, it's. I can't believe that if you're in our industry, it's not the right product. I truly can't believe that. So he's like, well, I'm thinking about canceling that. I'm like, well, why would you cancel the thing that's going to make sure you make money. There's a lot of things to cancel. Not that. Cancel your gym membership because you can walk around the block. Okay. Like, Like, I mean, so, I mean, you know, and everybody's thought process is different, but, like, the reality is you have to have a budget. And, and people say, well, I don't have my numbers. I don't have the budget. You can create a budget. Listen, if you've been doing this for at least a year or two, you have an idea, you have a starting point. It's better than not having a starting point. Okay. So number one, you need to have a starting point. You, you know, you get that. Right? And then from there, you create your estimates and you, you actually, you have to put the work in on the templates, too. Yeah, that's the other thing. Like all these other, like, people are. If you're trying to use. Synced up on a daily basis without templates, you. It's going to be hard for you. Yeah. But now with AI, you can build your templates. Like if you, you go into any AI Copilot. Gemini, Right. This is like, I, I can't believe I'm saying this. I'm sharing another secret. But, like, if you know what you do, you can go talk to AI create a template. And when I say create a template, the verbiage for. Because arguably that's the hardest part. Finding the items. You know what you need? You are a builder. You go put the items in. You create the verbiage in the process through Copilot and or Gemini. I want to build a brick retaining wall, make sure that you reference industry best practices and standards. Make sure you make the. There's lighting under cap lighting every eight feet. I want to use a number 57 base and I'm in a cold thaw or freestyle climate. Right. Whatever, wherever you are, I'm not in that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm just using. And so you tell AI that it's going to spit you out something. You say, create this as a short, firm scope of work. Copy and paste it, Put in your templates, put your Items in. If you can't create templates, there's no. There's really no. You could argue that a year ago.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You could say, I don't have time. And I'd be like, yeah, I get it. It's a lot of work. But now it's like, there's really no excuse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know? Yeah. So. So, like, that was one of the things I asked him, you know, I was like, well, why, why, why don't you, like, synced up? And he's like, ah, it's just a lot of money. I'm like, if that's the only thing you got to say about it, you're not using it. Yeah, okay. Like, you know, and so I would say, you know, learn to use it. You know, sit down if I told you to stay late and finish the paver patio or get the pool in the ground, you know, that's hustle harder. You would say, okay, yeah, I can hustle harder. Right. Well, hustle harder in the office so you have more time with your family, more time to build processes, more time to build systems. You know what I mean?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So it's the thing that you already

[A]

do in the field into your systems. Yeah, because it connects back. What you're saying connects back to the. Look, the. The other analogy you gave about your sub that doesn't want to do invest into, like, processes for all that. Like, yeah, you can save more time to get it back out in the field or whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's like, you cannot save your way to profitability.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

If you're. If you're just going to look at your list of expenses and start chopping the biggest thing, well, then, you know, what about your truck payment? What about your, you know, sure, there's a lot of money you can save, but you wouldn't. Why? Because you need it to. Like, that truck payment makes you money. And so you have to look at things through the lens of not what. What does it cost you, what does it make you? And if it isn't making you what you need to be. Be making, why is it something in my control or is it just the wrong fit?

[B]

Right. And the other thing is, like, now, too, with AI is like, I like, people probably think I'm crazy, which they might have thought that before. They definitely think I'm crazy now. So. Well, like, I talk to myself. I don't. Somebody, like, asked me, like, what kind of music do you listen to? I'm like, what's music? Like, I don't listen to music, like, because they were asking me if I was going to this concert. I'm like, I don't do it. I was like, I don't listen to music. I'm like, this. This head. There's wild things going on in there. And I'm like, I talk to myself all day in my truck with AI, But I do. I'm like, I tell it my whole notes for the day when I. Before I leave, like, I'm in the truck. You could talk to it about your templates and then do it when you

[A]

go home, when you get back.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You're riding to the job. You're like, I'm going to make a. I'm going to set a goal, write a notepad. I'm going to make a template every day, and you're going to talk to yourself every morning. AI is going to create. I literally, at the end of the day, before I walk in, I got this thing called plod. Have you heard of it? Yeah, I have plodded. So I use plod now for almost, like, everything. It's just crazy. Like, I. When I sit before I go in the house, right. I park in the driveway and I hit the button and I talk about my day, and then I have it emailed to me. Then I get up in the morning, I'm in the shower, wherever, you know, whatever. I look through it and I said, well, what did I forget? Because I'm going to go in the house, I'm going to, you know, kiss the wife, you know, whatever, see the kids, and I may sit down and get some emails, which 99% of the time, and then I'll forget something. So if I talk to Betty sue, right? Yeah. I'm going to say Betty Sue, I talked to her about, you know, there's a leak in her liner. Maybe I need to, you know, correct this and whatever, you know, and it's going to say that, and then I'm going to check in or I'll forward it. I'll forward it to my office staff, what I talked about. I'll come in and forward it.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I mean, it's just so easy right now to be successful. I don't know. It's hard to get in the habit of doing it, but once you realize the ease of success with the information available right now, it's more doable than ever. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, well, it's. There's so much. Google changed the world in that access to information was not the bottleneck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

AI is changing the world in that not only is access information on the bottleneck, it can also do a lot of things for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, not just access, but also the doing, you know? So that's. And it's gonna. It's just speeding up.

[B]

Yeah, it's gonna speed up. Yeah. It's gonna get wild. But, yeah, I mean, it's. You know, coming back from Tussie and where we are today, man, it's. I would love to go back and visit Tussie. Right? And just, like, I. I know this sounds terrible. I'm not gonna, like, almost. I want to say. I hate to use this word, because I'm gonna feel like I'm gonna get a call at any minute. My phone's gonna. It's gonna be, like, blowing up, you know? But, like, almost critique what I learned. Does that make sense? Like, be like, I bet you there's

[A]

gonna be different things that stand out to you.

[B]

Right? And, like, not that what I'm doing is right, because, listen, we change. I am so okay with change. Like, I'm like, oh, that's another thing

[A]

that I think is a gold nugget that you just said is, like, so many people resist change, and they have no reason for it other than they're lazy. Right.

[B]

Like, what I like Matt. Like, Matt, you know, if I, like, went there and rode with him, like, because, you know, I rode around with him. Yeah. I rode with you in a row mat. Right. And it's like, I just kind of see what the thought process is now, and I bet they've evolved. I'm going to use that. Like, so I'm gonna throw that to my. They've changed, right? But, like, we'll change something in a minute. I'm like, oh, great, it's not working. Let's do something else.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

They don't even care. Like, oh, people get upset with me. I'm like, it's not working. Like, what? Why just change it. I don't. And somebody's got a better idea than me. That works great, fantastic.

[A]

Don't be married to your own idea.

[B]

No, I'm never married to my own. In fact, I like. I just welcome change, man. Makes your life so much more relaxed.

[A]

Yeah. And you are. That's one thing I appreciate about you is you're. You. You approach life with a pretty chill vibe. Meaning, like, you're not gonna get bent out of shape. You're just gonna, what's the next right thing to do?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You don't have an ego, put it that way.

[B]

I try not to. I Feel like sometimes, like, I am very proud of what we've accomplished. Right.

[A]

I know. I don't mean it that way. I just mean, like, some people, you can't tell them they're wrong.

[B]

Right. You know, my biggest thing is, like, what I think, like, my team would say is, like, if you can tell me why, I always want to know why, you'll find me asking that a lot. And I. And, like, I think that some of my newer people get offended by that. And, like, then they're like, it's just Jordan's way. Like, I'm gonna be like, okay, if you spit an idea the next time. Well, why do you think that? And it's. I'm not questioning you. I'm trying to understand how you arrived there. How you arrived there. Because what if I missed something?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, well, why? Why did you. Why? Like, it does sound rude, right? Like, because if I ask my wife why she's not happy. You know what I mean? Like, well, why? She's immediately, like, I definitely don't ask my wife that. Like, but, like, I asked my staff that. I'm like, well, why? And they're like, like, some of the people have been with me a long time are like, no, no, he's not upset. Like, he's actually like, that's a compliment. Like, well, why? Why'd you gear? Because then I'm like, yeah. Like, yeah. I'm like, okay. I mean, I'm interested. Like, well, why? Why? Why do you think that? And so, like, I think it's very important to ask why? And, like, I don't know, man. Like, just, there are so many people that are going to have better ideas than you. And just because you're the owner or the leader doesn't give you the right to decide whether it's right or wrong. It gives you the right to analyze whether it's right for your team. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, it makes me think of the thing where people say, as the owner, you want to be the dumbest guy in the room.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, and. And I learned that. I'll be honest with you, I'm learning that more and more. Like, I'm trying to hire smarter people than me.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's enjoyable.

[A]

Yeah. Right. Well, makes me think of somebody that I heard say, when you're out there hiring people, yeah. You should stop trying. Stop trying to save money.

[B]

Yeah. Go buy.

[A]

Go hire the absolute top tier talent that's like 30% overpriced.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you will make more money on it.

[B]

I believe that I will tell you, I still have a hard time doing that. Like, I struggle because we're. At the end of the day, we're still the guys that have to go to sleep. Right? We're accountable for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, like. But every time I have made. It's good to hear you, like, say that, because every time I've made that decision, it's always been one of my better decisions.

[A]

Well, it's the people you can end up building on top of.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, if you always try to hire the cheapest talent out there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're never going to escape the trap, the hamster wheel that you're in, where you got to solve all the problems.

[B]

Yeah. No, I agree. And, I mean, there's people that are good at all different things. They're maybe better than you at this. Maybe they're not a visionary. Maybe they're, you know, really focused at one thing. They're. You know, there's just so many skill sets. People have so many unique skill sets, man. I'm honestly trying to figure out. I would say, like, you know, another thing we're trying to work on is like, okay, maybe how do I replace me as sales? Right? Like, I love to sell, but if I'm the only one to rely on, right? Like, I need to eventually replace that, and what does that look like for my business? Right? Because the way I portray as an owner and the way somebody else sells our product, it's totally different, right? So we've changed. Like, we don't let anyone know, Kyle and I, that we're owners anymore. Like, if you look at our email signatures and we changed all our paperwork, we're project advisors. So there is no ownership, Right? The team we own. The ownership is the company, Right? The ownership is the people, right? So we are strictly project advisors. In fact, I don't. I. I don't never. Nobody really asks, like, oh, are you an owner? But, like, I definitely can tell now that, like, the literature comes out and, like, my signature, my email says it. Nobody thinks I'm an owner. Like, I don't. And honestly, it's. It's kind of better that way.

[A]

Yeah. Because they think they. If you're the owner, they can push you along and get a deal or whatever.

[B]

Yeah, they definitely can't do that. I hate that. I'm like. I'm like, I just don't want to do this anymore. It's not.

[A]

I.

[B]

Like, my buddy was in concrete, and, like, his wife did very, very well. He does not have to work. Okay. And I Used to ask him, why are you doing concrete? And he used to say, till it's not fun anymore. And I say, what? What do you mean it's not. It's concrete. It's not fun. Like, why? What do you mean? He said, well, it's not fun. It's not fun anymore. And one day, we were friends for a very long time. He said, I'm closing down my concrete company. I said, well, why? It's not fun anymore. I said, why is it not fun? The customers, they're not fun. He said, they're the pickiest, they've ever been, the neediest. They contact you at all hours of the night. They're difficult to work with. It's not fun anymore. Now, his reason, he would certainly could do that, right? But, like, anytime a client, right. Comes to me and the first thing they want to talk about, something related to the price or it's not fun to me anymore. Yeah, exactly. I'm just like, oh, that's not fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I'm not here to talk about that. I'm here to talk about how to get you the best product.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, right, right.

[B]

I'm here, you know, so, like. Or the best, you know, job. So, I mean, I don't know, man. We're working on a ton of things if we're not working on stuff. I mean, I. I created flyers, all kind, like, design, you know, processes, how to go through it. And I just, you know, I need to let it happen. I think I need to work on myself. Trying to work on myself.

[A]

That's the game of entrepreneurship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you want to switch places and you ask me questions?

[B]

We can, man. How do you get your hair so awesome?

[A]

I just got a haircut.

[B]

Yeah, it's looking great. Oh, what are we going to talk about, like, synced up? Where is it going? What's the direction?

[A]

Let's.

[B]

So some of the things on the shooting block here. Wow, this could be dangerous. This could be dangerous.

[A]

We're trying to. We're trying to get off, like, forget the cameras there, and we're just having a conversation.

[B]

Orange or red?

[A]

Whatever you want to do.

[B]

No, to the color. Trying to figure out what speedo I'm going to order you. You know what I mean? No, no, no, no, no, no. This is all joke. We're always. We're just having fun. But, you know, what do you. What do you kind of think the forecast of the forecast is right for? Synced up and the utility of the program. What does the forecast look like right

[A]

well, so to me, okay, one of my favorite quotes is, fall in love with the problem, not your solution, because the solution changes. So a story where I got this, I forget even where I read it. I read it somewhere and what, what it was was a book that was talking about two railroad companies back in the industrial age. And it was saying one of them went out of business. The other one is a thriving company today.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The difference, one of them called themselves a railroad company. The other one called themselves a logistics company, meaning the one was in the business of running trains down tracks. The other one was in the business of moving stuff from point A to point B.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so guess what? As the world changed how you got things from point A to point B changed, the company that was in the business of running trains down railroad tracks ultimately lost.

[B]

Yeah. Because they didn't know logistics, they didn't

[A]

know how to adapt. So the one was, it was focused on the problem. The other one was focused on the solution, AKA running trains down tracks.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so to me, I love that because it's the same way with it with which I look at synced up, which is like the way I would have thought about how to get a contractor to price their jobs correctly. Five years ago is very different than today.

[B]

Yeah. But should be. Should be.

[A]

But what isn't changing is the problem that we solve. The solution, AKA how we solve it, is evolving all the time. And of course, like, where our heads are at in our leadership meetings and planning and product and all of that is always like way further ahead than what you see when you log into. Synced up. Right. But there's a lot of energy into researching. We're doing prototyping, like just trying things. And the thinking is, is at the end of the day, every contractor needs to make sure that they're charging the right price on their estimates.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it used to be, back in the day, spreadsheets were.

[B]

Did.

[A]

Were an amazing game changer over pen and paper.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Then software got better than spreadsheets.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Now. Now in the age of AI, people just want to like, I. I believe that search fields and drop downs and filters and buttons are kind of go away.

[B]

Yeah. We talked. Yeah.

[A]

It's gonna be just more like kind

[B]

of like the talking in the truck kind of thing I just did.

[A]

Speaking of, I'm trying to track what I eat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Years ago, I used a calorie tracker that was all the search drop downs, filters to find the thing that you needed to track. Frustrating. But it worked.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Today I got One that I just take a picture in my plate and it analyzes it with AI it's like this is what we think you got. Is that right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Or it's close, right.

[A]

And it's probably, I guess it's 10 to 20 accurate, you know, close enough for what I, what I care about.

[B]

But efficiency is through the roof.

[A]

And the point is I can do that in five to 10 seconds instead of filters and searching and frustrated I got through, you know, can't find it. So the point is, is Synced Up's mission is to help contractors be prosperous.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we are on full attack on the things that prevent that, AKA they don't know their cost of being in business and what they have to charge be profitable or they are estimating their jobs incorrectly in terms of how many hours and materials it takes to do it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So job costing exposes you when you do that in the estimating budgeting exposes when you're charging the wrong rate. So an example to do job costing. This is kind of where my head's at.

[B]

Right? Yeah, I'm listening to do job costing.

[A]

Currently, we just rolled out a brand new mobile app for time tracking. Right. Well, that thing's got a ticking time, you know, so currently you have to hit a button that says clock in. You have to hit from a select from a list of who all is working with you and you have to hit a button when you're done working and, and drag some sliders on where you allocated your time across the day.

[B]

Right? Yeah.

[A]

Well, in a world of to do to get job costing, you got to capture that data, otherwise you can't do job costing.

[B]

Doesn't matter.

[A]

But what about if I just pull my phone out and talk to us like, hey, I, it's me, Bob and Joe and we worked for eight and a half hours. We spent about a half a day on this and the other half of the day on that. And it just creates the records for you.

[B]

Yeah, well, and it causes the user to want to use it. Right?

[A]

Yeah. And it also, you know what I've noticed about AI or chat is people doing chat.

[B]

Right.

[A]

People don't have the perceived thing of I got to figure out how to use it.

[B]

Right. Because they're just, they're just talking to it. Well, you're asking it a question like you and I are sitting here today.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, it's interesting because I was like, I'm walking through all this stuff and I was like, oh, he's, this is dangerous. You're going to have me ask questions. Okay. So, you know, one of the things I think for growth, right, Is vulnerability. Right. You have to be willing to be vulnerable. Right? So it's funny, you go out and, for lack of a better word, you pitch this product because you have a mission, Right. You have to sell this product just like I have to sell my product. Right. Well, here's the why behind my product. So there's a lot of guys that maybe you can't talk bluntly to them because they're your customer. Right? They're your customer. Okay. You have to say you want to sell them, and you want to this and you want to that. But what I found is there's a lot of hardscapers and builders that need to hear the why they need this in unfiltered terms. So let me ask you this. In an unfiltered version, what contractor needs you the most would benefit? Does that make sense? What I'm asking?

[A]

Where the biggest? Like, before and after.

[B]

Yeah. Like, not the rainbows, not the. Not the butterflies. And go. Well, I'd like to get better at job cost. I'd like to be profitable. Right. Because you could. You can sell that. You can say, I want to sell you this. I want to say that. Let's take all that out of it. Let's say, okay, here is not the sunshine version. Who is the guy that's sitting there. They could use you the most, but you're not selling them this product. And the why does that make sense?

[A]

Yep. Let me take a crack at it.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I would say it's the con. It's a mindset thing. It's the contractor that refuses to ever shine the flashlight into the dark closet.

[B]

It's good.

[A]

They all they ever. It's a mindset thing. All they ever want to do. They love doing the craft. That's why they got into business in the first place. They love doing the work. I don't know if you ever read Emac. You kind of know.

[B]

Sure, I did. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[A]

So, like, they love doing the pies.

[B]

I love the pie version.

[A]

Right? Yeah. But 10 of running a successful business is actually doing the work. The rest of it is all the other stuff we've been talking about the whole time.

[B]

Yep, yep, yep.

[A]

So you're not gonna get anywhere in business by just focusing on the craft. Like, you can maybe sell your time for 30 years, but you basically own your own job, and that's not a very successful.

[B]

Maybe. Maybe it's what you want, but you deserve to be profitable at it, you

[A]

have to make money. Okay, but what to this contractor that doesn't ever shine the light in the flat in the dark closet? Let me explain it another way. I don't know about you, but I've lived through some times in personal finances where it was tight. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, 100 coin star was my best friend.

[A]

And I could have. I could have opened my app and in 10 seconds seen how much cash I had in my bank account. But I wouldn't do it. You know what I'd do instead? I kind of just go up to the point of sale and I just kind of tap my card and just hold my breath. It went through.

[B]

Hope for the best, yo.

[A]

For the best. Why don't I just open my app and look at how much was in there? You tell me. That's what I'm talking about with the guy that doesn't ever shine their light in the dark closet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They just rather not know because ignorance is bliss.

[B]

And so what dangerous too.

[A]

It's very. It'll kill you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But here's. Here's what. How it shows up in practical.

[B]

Right?

[A]

So I stopped talking in riddles.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

It. The way it shows up in practical terms is you just lick and stick your pricing. You go with market rates, what other people are charging. Square foot, whatever. Like, you just lick and stick. You don't actually know why you're charging that rate.

[B]

Right. And we. We not to cut you off. But the reason I bring this up is there is a guy. Right? The reason I know there's a guy is that guy was me. Right. Okay. That is in his pickup truck. It is what, five? Let's see, it's 453 right now. That is riding home and trying to figure out why he's going to get up tomorrow. Right. I know that because I'm like, he's going to make payroll, barely. Right. Okay. He's going to have enough just to get groceries. And the key to him being successful, is it maybe synced up? I don't know. Could it help him? Yes. Right. And so that's where I'm trying to reach. It's like. Like when you. We watch these TikTok reels and all this things, like they talk about these things or these symptoms. You ever, you ever seen some of these things? Are you a guy that has anxiety? This or whatever, they go through these things. It's like, well, that's me. I don't know. Right. I'm saying. So like, when I look at that, some People say I don't need this. Well, the why you need this. Right. The guy that is thinking is because he wants to be profitable. Right. He wants to stop neglecting that feeling that you're talking about. Right, right. He wants to get past that hurdle. Right. I mean, that's the guy that is going to benefit the most from synced up. Yeah.

[A]

The more you think you don't need it, probably the more you do need it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because like, sure, you can brute force your way through and do a whole bunch of pen and paper math and build your own spreadsheets. Absolutely you can. But the time you invest into doing that and the risk that you're going to get things wrong along the way and the years you're going to have to invest into like, oh, wow, that was a hard earned lesson. Let me do it. Right. Eventually, over 10 to 20 years, you'll get to the point where you, you're doing it right. Sure, sure.

[B]

Because. Because you've, you've lost. You've won by trial and error.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you get smacked around a lot.

[A]

And in this day and age, there is no excuse to plug right into what you've already learned for 20 years. And in my year one, I have I am standing on your shoulders, aka say tussle landscaping. Synced up. Right. I'm standing on the 20 years of hard lessons. They've learned that. And on year one, I am skipping all of those. The pain of those hard earned lessons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Well, and we see that every day on these Facebook groups. How many times have you got on Hardscapers of America?

[A]

Oh my goodness.

[B]

And they're like just last week where a guy was saying, how do I price this? How do I this? How about, well, did you see that

[A]

guy on Hardscape Contours of America that was saying I got synced up and then I canceled it because it made my stuff too expensive. And I'm like, look, well, I tried to be diplomatic in that response.

[B]

I saw that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw that.

[A]

What I tried to make a point of in that response was like, look, something doesn't have an opinion. We don't care.

[B]

Right.

[A]

All, all we do show you the truth.

[B]

Show you the truth. That. And that's the thing. It's like, you know, I told that guy you were asked me and I didn't mean to cut you up. You were asking me, he said, I'm going to cancel synced up. And I said to him, that's weird. I was like, because I've been using Synced up five years. Like, almost five years. Right. And I was like, I still haven't made all the money back. I. Before I used it. And he was like, what do you. What do you mean? I was like, what do you mean, what do I mean? I'm like, well, I'll let you know when I get there. But what I will tell you is I haven't made that money back that I lost. And those guys just continue. They think they're making money because they got a fancy truck.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's nothing. Zealand. Zealand.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, I mean, it's just. It's just. And that's why I ask who's the ideal client? Because a lot of the ideal clients are the ones that won't be real for themselves. A lot of the ideal clients for. Synced up in my. In my eyes. Right.

[A]

Don't want to be real with themselves.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Right. They don't want to. They just think they. They. You know, for some way, they got it figured out. Are they this or that? Does it mean they're not smart guys? No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Doesn't mean they're not great at their craft.

[A]

To that. To that point, you know, Synced Up's cheapest plan is 400 bucks a month, or 359 if you pay annually.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's high enough that you're not just going to impulse buy it and float the spend if you're not actually benefiting from it. Right.

[B]

So

[A]

as the founder, I'm sitting here thinking, like, okay, the amount of education it takes for that person that's, like, unaware of just how much pain they're enduring from not knowing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The amount of education it takes to get that person to realize, like, oh, wow, 400 bucks a month is a drop in the bucket compared to the hundred grand a year that I'm losing.

[B]

Well, it's crazy because they'll go out to the Mexican restaurant and spend $75 every week on a Friday. Right. To getting chips and salsa and a couple margaritas.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I just talked to a guy two weeks ago that it was a young kid, owner, operator. And so I was like, dude, look, let me just. Let me just. Just start doing it the right way. Give me 200 bucks a month and I'll just set you up. Right. Well, I don't even have that cash. An hour later, we're all going out to lunch, and he was buying $40 worth of lunch. I'm just like, so you just didn't have 200 bucks. But you have $40. Yeah.

[B]

It's just, you know what's like crazy about you, right? Like that I've known. We've been. How long we've been friends? Five. Yeah. Okay. So, like, you know, one of the things I love about you. Right. Don't tell this to anybody.

[A]

I have no idea what you're going to say.

[B]

Yeah, I know. It could be dangerous. You are so genuine, you know, you don't care if somebody buys your product or not. You care about the success of them and their business. That is one thing I know about you. You know, every time, whether you're up there talking to somebody. Right. Or I see you, I never feel as though you are trying to get the sale. The questions you ask and the things that you do always imply that you want them to be successful. And that to me is you couldn't buy from a better person. Right. Okay. Or a better team. Because the intentionality, which is a word I use all the time in my business behind synced up, is of one that wants success over profit. For you to even say, well, hey, Let me get $200. Let me show you. Right. It shows that you're throwing all out of the window because you truly believe in the mission. To me, that, that, that's so important, you know, I mean, you thought I was going to say something worse.

[A]

I have no idea what you were going to say.

[B]

You never know with me.

[A]

But I just. I guess you could. I appreciate that. And I guess you could just say it comes from a place of values. Like, I had a. My wife's from Romania. I don't know if I've ever said this in the podcast. My wife's from Romania and I spent two years in Romania living over there. And one of the big reasons that I have this fire in my belly for this thing of like, just do it the right way. Just like, like whatever about sync that, but just do it the right way. Here, use it. Use this free tool.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Is I time off in the two years I spent over there at the time, they were about 25, 30 years out of communism. And I saw a whole generation that psychologically was thought the world owed them everything. No responsibility for any of their choices. Now, of course, you see this kind of, kind of coming over in our own culture.

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

Like what I, what I got from that was when I came back and I, you know, a lot of friends and networking in the contracting industry at shows like this, I'm like, if somebody's going to get up at 5am every day. And they're going to try to be a positive contribution to society and actually do something with their life. I don't want to make sure they're successful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You do that guy. Fail.

[B]

Yeah. No, and I mean, you. You don't. I can say that. I mean that, like, you know, people that are listening, you know, and the reality is a lot of people are going to be listening to this podcast are probably already users. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. And the reality is the ones that need to be listening to it are likely not users. Right. So a lot of people that are using this software are essential or that are listening to this podcast. Right. They maybe don't need this as much as the guy. Not. Right. But, like, the reality is the intention behind everything you've done from day one of me really being on the ground floor, seeing this is the only thing to me that has changed about your mission. Right. Is that it's gotten greater. You've, like. I thought you were so in tune with it. Like, you wanted me to succeed so much. Right. And I did. Thank you. When I see you, what do I do? Give you a hug. Right. Yeah. Right. That's weird. I'm not long, but it is. It says I'm not a hugger, but, I mean, I know it could. I. I just feel like I owe it to you. And what's crazy about it is now when I see you, you're more in tune with the mission. So it just. It's impressive. You know, I really enjoy. I enjoy being a part of this, man. So thank you. I just. I love every minute of it. Anytime I can sit here with you and talk, it's great, brother.

[A]

Well, I'm excited for the future. The future is bright, honestly, with, you know, just. I'll wrap it up with that whole problem solution thing. Like, to me, we will always be. This mission will be to solve this problem for these people.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

These contractors. Right. What I'm excited about is what AI affords us in terms of opportunities for how we can do it. Like, lower the bar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How hard it is to do the. Do it the right way.

[B]

Well, it's only gonna get easier.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

That's, like, right now, if you're thinking about.

[A]

I view it as our job to

[B]

make sure that happens. Yeah. It's only gonna get easier. That's what's crazy. So you were at the. We were at the hardest level of where we're going.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Crazy to think that. So anyway, you're awesome.

[A]

Yeah, brother. Thank you.

[B]

Appreciate you. All right.

[A]

Hey, thanks for listening to the cost of of doing business show. If you need help with knowing your numbers or you're looking for a better automated system to run estimating and scheduling and job costing or more in your business, just hit me up. You can book a [e-mail] or DM me on Instagram. Syncedup, which is spelled S Y N K E D U p. See you on the next one.