Ep 99. 30 Years in Business and Thinking About the End Game | Mark Arsenault

Summary

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The Cost of Doing Business – Ep 99

30 Years in Business and Thinking About the End Game | Mark Arsenault
Date: April 27, 2026
Host: Weston Zimmerman | Guest: Mark Arsenault (Green Monster Landscapes)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Weston Zimmerman sits down with Mark Arsenault, owner of Green Monster Landscapes, at the Northeast Hardscape Trade Show to reflect on nearly 30 years in the landscape and hardscape business. Mark shares his journey from full-service operation to niche design-build, the hard lessons learned from business and personal hardship (including a divorce and business reboot), his strategies for building a sustainable business, thoughts on exit strategy, and advice for younger operators. The conversation is candid, practical, and rooted in real-world lessons, making it invaluable for business owners in the trades.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Full Service to Niche Specialist (00:48–03:29)

• Business Structure: Mark operates Green Monster Landscapes with himself and four team members, occasionally hiring subcontractors for specialized projects.
• Shift in Focus: Started as a full-service landscaper (maintenance, mowing, plowing) but gradually narrowed down to design-build, with a focus on hardscape stonework.
• Project Type: “We do a lot of waterfront lakefront projects in the lakes region, New Hampshire, but...focusing more on the customers on the smaller lakes. More modest homes, a more modest landscape, more natural, more native.” (03:05–03:24)
• Typical Job Size: Projects typically range from $100K–$300K and can last a month or more for a crew of 2–4 due to tricky conditions and tight accesses.

2. Showpiece Projects & Craftsmanship (04:00–05:39)

• Moon Gate Project: Mark discusses a standout project, his only moon gate, assembled twice due to site logistics: “There was no room to do it on site, so we built it at my shop...labeled it, palletized it, shipped it to the jobsite, and reassembled it.” (04:45–05:22)
• Emphasizes that stonework is an art requiring true craftsmanship, not simply stacking blocks.

3. Hardest Obstacles & Business Reboot (05:41–09:04)

• Personal Story: Mark recounts navigating a difficult divorce with his business partner and first wife, leading to a three-year period of working together while separated.
• The Reboot: After buying out former partners, selling the home/shop and liquidating equipment in 2019, Mark rebooted in 2020 with just two employees and leased machines.
• Lesson: “I went from having two other partners to share the workload...to like, all right, you're doing everything.” (07:56–08:09)
• Delegation and Support: Mark highlights the importance of hiring a bookkeeper and third-party admin support to handle the load as a solo operator.

4. Lessons in Numbers, Budgets, and Owner Pay (09:04–16:46)

• Budget Upkeep: Both agree that building a budget is not a one-time event. Key mistake: letting numbers go "on cruise control."
  • “You're lulled to sleep because you think you did it ... But it's not up to date.” (11:36–11:42)
• Paying Yourself: Many owner-operators underpay themselves, conflating business profit with personal salary.
  • “...the business made 10% profit on a million dollar business. 100 grand. That's my pay. It's like, no, it's not. You and the business are two separate entities.” (15:00–15:11)
• Building Value Beyond Equipment: Mark and Weston discuss the reality that many small business owners are "owning their job," not creating a sellable business, so paying oneself a fair wage and investing for retirement is essential.
• Notable Quote:
  • Weston: “If you're not paying yourself, your customers are getting you for free. Are you okay with that? I doubt it.” (20:37–20:49)

5. Exit Strategy and Planning for Retirement (16:46–19:56)

• Endgame Thinking: Mark (now in his 24th season) is thinking about succession, retirement, and the saleability of his business.
• Training the Next Generation: Trying to develop team members who might buy in or take over roles.
• Physical Toll: Mark candidly shares about facing back surgery, and urges young operators to invest in machinery and tools that protect their health for the long run.
  • “You're not going to last...Are you going to spend your retirement like with a walker?” (19:54–20:00)

6. Best Advice Ever Received (20:52–22:45)

• Attitude: Mark shares the lesson from his first “real” job:
  • “If I ever hear anybody here say, ‘that’s not my job,’ you won’t have a job.” (21:09–21:13)
  • He stresses selflessness, teamwork, and never feeling above any task.

7. What Would You Do Differently? (23:00–25:33)

• Focus on Fulfillment: Mark would have niched down earlier, doing more of the work he loves (natural stone), and stopped trying to be everything to everyone.
• Learning to Say No: “Learning to say no is...super powerful.” (24:44–24:46)
  • Saying no to unprofitable or unenjoyable projects is described as liberating and, with respect, can lead to more referrals.

8. Pricing, Customer Fit, and Respect (25:33–28:36)

• Customer Service: Treat every prospect with respect, even if they're not a fit:
  • “Treat them like your grandmother. Courtesy, respect, be helpful...” (25:51–25:54)
• Market Positioning: Decide whether you’re building a “Ferrari” or a “Kia,” and structure your business accordingly.

9. Technology and Change Management (29:12–36:01)

• Adapting to Change: Mark reminisces about his technical background and comments on the rapid pace of technology—including AI.
• Software Implementation: Discussion of SynkedUP and the challenge of rolling out new software systems, especially during busy seasons.
  • “Don’t do major changes for crew members in the middle of the busy season.” (34:44–34:53)
• Feedback Loop: Mark affirms the value of ongoing feedback and patience during tech rollouts.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Focusing the Business:

• “We narrowed it down and focused on what we did best. And now that’s basically design-build with the emphasis on hardscape stonework.” – Mark (01:56)

On Numbers and Owner Pay:

• “If you're not paying yourself, your customers are getting you for free. Are you okay with that? I doubt it.” – Weston (20:37)

On Longevity & Health:

• “If you can make room for that stuff, somehow you got to get it. You're not going to last...Are you going to spend your retirement, like with a walker?” – Mark (19:54)

On Advice for Teams:

• “If I ever hear anybody here say, ‘that’s not my job,’ you won’t have a job.” – Mark recalling advice from a previous boss (21:09–21:13)

On Learning to Say No:

• “Learning to say no is...super powerful.” – Mark (24:44)

On Customer Courtesy:

• “Treat every customer...like your grandmother. Courtesy, respect, be helpful.” – Weston (25:51–25:54)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• (00:48–03:29): Mark shares business background and transition to design-build niche
• (05:41–09:04): Divorce, adversity, and business “reboot”
• (09:04–12:47): Budgeting, updating numbers, and delegating admin
• (15:00–16:32): Owner wage vs. business profit, and the danger of underpaying yourself
• (16:46–19:54): Exit strategy, legacy planning, health toll of industry work
• (20:52–22:45): Best advice received—never say “that’s not my job”
• (23:00–25:33): Importance of doing fulfilling work, narrowing focus, and learning to say no
• (25:33–28:36): Pricing, customer fit, and being helpful to non-ideal clients
• (29:12–36:01): Technology, AI, and lessons in change management from SynkedUp implementation

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How to Find Mark

• Instagram: @greenmonsterlandscapes (search “Green Monster Landscapes”)
• Website: gmlandscapes.com
• Other Platforms: Facebook, TikTok (search for "Green Monster Landscapes")

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This episode is a must-listen for business owners in any trade looking to build a sustainable, profitable business with an eye on quality of life, exit strategies, and long-term value. The stories and lessons shared by Mark and Weston deliver an honest, behind-the-scenes perspective that goes beyond the highlight reels of social media.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Cost of doing business podcasts. Things on Instagram are pretty shiny, but here we're going to get to the reality behind the scenes on the hard journey of growing a business so we can all learn from each other. I'm your host, Weston Zimmerman, co founder of Synced Up. Been in the green industry my whole life. Let's get into it. Well, welcome back to another episode of the cost of doing business podcast. I am here at the north these hardscape trade show with Mark Arsenault and his wife here off the edge of the lens. But she's the controller. I found out just a few moments ago. But anyway, we are at the end of a busy day. You got here this morning or did you come in?

[B]

We came in yesterday.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Dawn and I came in yesterday and my guys came in this morning.

[A]

Awesome. Yeah, that's beautiful. What. Give it. Give everybody a bit of a rundown of who you are, what your business looks like, what your team looks like.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. So it's. It's myself and four guys. We usually have a sub 1099 guy for a special project. Sure. A good portion of the year. We'll have an extra hand. We're hoping to bring on a couple extra people this year. I think we have them lined up. Yeah. And we're almost completely design built at this point.

[A]

Had you done maintenance in the past?

[B]

We did when we started. Well, this is my. Is going to be my 24th season. So way back when I thought it was a good idea to, you know, be full service. And we did that for a while. We mowed, we plowed, we spring fall cleanups, you know, everything, and then started just picking off. Stop doing things that weren't profitable or didn't enjoy doing.

[A]

So over time, you just got more and more and more niched.

[B]

Yeah, I think we just kind of got, you know, we just narrowed it down and focused on what we did best. And now that's basically design build with the emphasis on hardscape stonework.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you do some incredible stone.

[B]

Thank you. Well, guys are artists. Yeah. Well, you know, it's. You gotta. It's hard work. You gotta have a passion for it.

[A]

Yeah, it's a skill. Like, it's not just something you're gonna. It's not like stacking lego blocks, you know, It's a skill.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Especially when you get into like, the natural stones.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's a lot more custom and more craftsmanship to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's really what I enjoy the most. Here.

[A]

What, what, what would you, how would you describe your average run of the mill project that you get the most of? They do the most efficiently.

[B]

I mean, my favorite stuff is probably we do a lot of. We do a lot of waterfront lakefront projects in the lakes region, New Hampshire, but not, not the. I don't, I don't want to say this in a disrespectful manner, but sort of the. This kind of like some really large, almost over the top kind of projects done on the big lake. And we're focusing more on the customers on the smaller lakes. More modest homes, a more modest landscape, more natural, more native. Minimize the lawn areas, things like that on the lakefront. And I think that's what we're best at. You know, that really seems to be a nice niche for us.

[A]

What kind of price range is that kind of work?

[B]

I think a lot of that stuff is probably between, you know, the. Anywhere from 100 to 300.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So not small, you know. Yeah, they're nice jobs.

[B]

I mean, most of them, you know, end up turning into like a month long for two to four guys, or maybe even a little bit longer than that, depending on the project. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're. A lot of them are tricky. You know, they. A lot of them have difficult, tight access.

[A]

Yeah. Steep slopes, especially when you're in that lakefront stuff.

[B]

Yes, for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Very cool. And how many moon gates have you built?

[B]

Just the one.

[A]

Just the one. Okay.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

I tell you what, I, I have seen that one on Instagram many times and it's, it's impressive.

[B]

I fear it may be like a once in a lifetime opportunity.

[A]

Like nobody's going to, Nobody else is

[B]

going to want to do that. Not everyone has got that kind of disposable income for a cool moon game structure that doesn't really perform any function. Yeah, right.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's really not actually a portal like a lot of people might think it is.

[A]

So, I mean, if you're on Instagram, you know, totally need to go check out Green Monster. Right. Or is it. Is it Green Monster Landscapes?

[B]

Green Monster Landscapes, Yeah. I think on Instagram, search it up

[A]

and go check it out. Like, it is incredible. And I remember watching you build that thing and the thing coming together.

[B]

It's a crazy build because we had to build it. We built it twice. Oh. Because, well, there was no room to do it on site, so we built it at my shop.

[A]

Okay. No wonder. I thought you had multiple.

[B]

Yeah, we built it at My shop. And then we built the top half of the arch first, and then we built the walls on the bottom and the bottom half of the arch. We never put the top half on the bottom half at my shop, but we took it all apart. We labeled it, we palletized it, we shipped it up to the job site, which is about 40 minutes north of our shop, and reassembled it.

[A]

It's awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it went together like a puzzle piece. It's natural stones. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like a puzzle piece that you had to trim the pieces a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. As table stakes.

[B]

Yeah. It was a great. It was a fun project.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So one of the questions I'd like to ask to kind of learn to know you better and even kind of draw out the stories that other people can learn from is, what is the most difficult thing that you've overcome in your journey?

[B]

That's a can of worms. You want to pop that one open,

[A]

you get to pick.

[B]

Well, my lovely bride sitting over there is not my first bride. And my first wife was involved in the business.

[A]

I see.

[B]

And so we did get divorced and. Long, drawn out divorce. We worked together three full seasons. Separated. Yeah. Like, at each other's throats, sort of. So we, like, just tried to keep away from each other, but, like, we were each out in the field. She ran the office, plus she was in the field, so she was on a different crew than I was. You know, communication was not good. And eventually we also had a minority partner back then. She and him both exited the company at the end of the 2019 season. So even though I had. We had been in business since 03, and they got out in 2019. 2020 was almost like a complete reboot of the company. We sold our house, which had our shop on the same property. We auctioned off and liquidated all of our equipment, and. And we had enough to staff, like, four crews.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And we just. And I. I kept two guys, and I went over to Bobcat, and I leased three machines, and I said, I'm gonna do this by myself now. And so. Yeah. So now this is season. This is my 24th season, and the last five have been myself sort of, like, rebuilding it a little bit. So. Yeah, that's kind of something I think a lot of people aren't aware of.

[A]

I wasn't aware of that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I probably only knew you since 21.

[B]

Yeah. I think 21 was a year. I think that my first year without my partners, I was still doing stuff. The old way, which we actually had some pretty sophisticated spreadsheets and pricing and things like that. But I needed, you know, I was wearing so many more hats. I went from, you know, having two other partners to share the workload of running a business to like, all right, you're doing everything. Like you're dealing with the account, you're dealing with tax stuff, you're dealing with like, partner was kind of like a clone to me almost. But like, so he kind of operated almost independently with his projects, but like, I was picking up the stuff that he had been doing and just like wearing every single hat and hats that I had never really worn in the business before.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. Wow. And now I've done all the things like, you know, hired a bookkeeper, hired a third party admin. So, yeah, you know, it's just, it's. Yeah, you can't do it all yourself.

[A]

What would you. Is there any, I'll say, experiences or lessons or battle scars out of that experience from a business perspective that you feel maybe made you a better business or made you a better leader or made you a better person or lessons learned?

[B]

Well, I think, I think it made me understand the business better because, like, I don't know, I. I felt like, I felt like we had really hit our strides just as soon as. And really our divorce did not have a lot to do with business. You know, it really wasn't the business that drove us apart, but I felt like the business was almost at a point back then. It was kind of like on cruise control. Like, we weren't worried about getting jobs, jobs were coming in. We weren't worried about profit, we were profitable. So I don't know if lazy is the right word, but, you know, jobs came in and we did them and we had money at the end of the year and we gave out some bonuses and. But then I had to really, like, I wasn't paying attention. You know, my ex wife was paying attention to the numbers, you know, and I didn't understand why she was always stressed about numbers either. So I was like, what are you worried about? We got work, we're paying the bills, we're putting money away, we're taking a salary. But when you're, you know, when I'm the one looking at the numbers all the time now and making sure there's, there is money in the bank account, you know, the guys are getting paid and all that stuff, it's. You're going to pay a lot more attention.

[A]

Yeah. So, yeah, it's tough to let that on. Cruise control you know? Yeah, yeah, the numbers. Because things. I think. Actually, I think an example of where contractors tend to unintentionally leave numbers on cruise control is they're, quote, doing it. Right. They're building a budget. They're doing all the overhead recovery, but. But then they don't keep it updated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it's like, I'm guilty of that now. Sure.

[B]

So. Yeah.

[A]

So you have this false sense of assurance or confidence that I just did it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, last winter.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so I think I'm good.

[B]

Or two winters ago.

[A]

And so I think I'm good. And then I'm like, wow.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

How many people have I hired or fired since then? What equipment have I bought or sold since then?

[B]

What new benefits have I. Yeah, what.

[A]

What overhead expenses? I spun up a new marketing campaign.

[B]

Do something new every year. It's like, you got to make sure that's in there. Right. Like contributing to health insurance or.

[A]

And the reason it's vacation.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You're always trying to grow.

[B]

That adds up.

[A]

And so what ends up happening is you're. You're lulled to sleep because you think you did it and you did.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it's not up to date. And so it's just as bad as if you had never done it. Kind of almost.

[B]

The next thing you know that. That. That one check that you're really not supposed to use is like the balance in the bank account. It's all of a sudden, like, that's not really where it usually is.

[A]

Yeah. What's going on?

[B]

Yeah, what's going on with that? Why is that? Oh, look at my budget. Yeah, I forgot about that. You know, using an admin now, that's 25 grand a year. And you throw that in exactly that a few times.

[A]

It can be the difference between making no money or making money. And the one antidote to that, because it is hard to stay on top of it as an owner. But one antidote to that is when you do sit down to build your budget project into the future. Don't just put in what you have been doing today. If you wish you could get that tilt rotator, put it in. You want that office admin, Put it in. And then focus on going and selling the work price at the work with the expenses you haven't even paid for yet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then when you do sell the work, it's your permission to go spend the money. It's like. It's literally like you get to write your own Christmas shopping list. And then you go get the buy.

[B]

Who would have thought I would have put a receptionist on my Christmas list.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's been great too though. And I met them through you.

[A]

Oh, the advanced admin teams. Yeah, they're. They're, they're amazing.

[B]

Yeah. Having people that take care of that stuff. I delegation through the cracks now.

[A]

Like, you know, you know this because you're doing it. But the amount of angst that owner operators go through because they feel they can just do it themselves cheaper after dinner.

[B]

Right.

[A]

As opposed to just getting it delegated.

[B]

Yeah. Getting too old. I've been doing it too long.

[A]

It's not worth.

[B]

Do the. It's not worth 70. Yeah. Weeks. I like at this point. It's like if I need to do 80 hours a week to make this work, then I don't want to do it.

[A]

I don't want to do it. Yeah. When you're my age, it might be worth it. Or you think you can. Right.

[B]

I did that already. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

For your. Exactly. It's not, it's just if you can't. There are people that try to be in business which might almost have a better life financially if they would just go get a good job. Like the skills they have that made them a businessman. If they would go be a number two for another company, they could do a lot better.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know, because I mean, I probably see some of the worst sides of it doing what we do with synced up.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I mean, I'll talk to people. It's not uncommon for me to talk to business owners that are like working 80 hour weeks and they're. They're not even paying themselves.

[B]

That's nuts. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

They might pull some grocery money or whatever, but it's like, it's.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know if that's like specific to this industry.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

That's, you know, it might be doing

[B]

that I think really have to make a change to.

[A]

They have to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's sustainable. No, it's not.

[B]

You shouldn't be working like that and not making a living.

[A]

Well, all you're doing is giving your customers your time for free.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's literally what you're doing is you are working for free.

[B]

Yeah. And overall it's not good for the industry.

[A]

No. Yeah. Because it threatens the people that are trying to do it. Right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It doesn't help anybody and it doesn't even help the customer because then you're up against the wall when things go sideways, which they inevitably will. You have no margin to do anything about it. Do the right thing for the. So you're not even serving the customer doing that? Yes. You know. Yeah.

[B]

Now you're worried about shortcuts you have to take to survive this project.

[A]

Nobody wins in that race. And I think the biggest like misnomer that people get twisted in their understanding of it is they're like, oh, well, the business made 10% profit on a million dollar business. 100 grand. That's my pay. It's like, no, it's not. You and the business are two separate entities. They both need to make money. And salaries are for what you do. So if you're an absentee owner, sure. Your net profit is your reward for your risk. If you're both an active owner and an owner, like, you need to pay the salary for the work that you're doing in the business operationally, and the business needs to make a profit on top of that after it's paid you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You shouldn't, in theory be able to take your salary and go hire whoever you need to hire.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To replace you. Make you an absentee owner.

[B]

Yep, absolutely.

[A]

Like, even if you're only. Even if you think, oh, I can make, I can make. I can make out just fine on living expenses with this number. While Sanity checked that by saying who would you have to hire to replace yourself? Most of you are doing the work of two or three people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, so what's that number then? Put that in.

[B]

Right. True.

[A]

I don't care if you take it or not in salary, but that's what should be in there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, yeah.

[B]

To be able to build.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Anyway, that's my rant.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

I like it.

[B]

I agree 100% with everything you just

[A]

said

[B]

and paying ourselves as owners, like living salary. Yes.

[A]

And here's the issue.

[B]

You shouldn't be cutting yourself just because you own a business.

[A]

And in fact, it should be the opposite. So most owner operators are not. This is not 100% true, but many owner operators are not building a sellable business. They're owning their job. So what does that mean? It means at the end of your 30 years of work or whatever it is, you're not going to have anything to sell other than maybe your worn out equipment. So. And a customer list maybe, if you're lucky.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So what do you do? Well, if you were paying yourself grocery money those 30 years, you have nothing to show for at the end. So the point is, if you're gonna be an owner, opera business you don't want to scale or grow a sellable business that can run without you, no problem. That's fine. Earn your own job, that's okay. But just make that thing crank cash and sideline the money elsewhere into other investments. Whether it's real estate, 401k, pretend you were a W2 worker getting a salary and like. And be. How would you invest for the future if you were that person? And you know what, however you choose to invest, you should be investing. So not only should you be paying yourself a living wage, you should also be paying yourself enough to invest so that by the time you get to the end of the 30 years, you could get nothing for your business and be great.

[B]

And I'm closer to the end of that 30 years than I am the beginning, you know, so I'm thinking a lot now about things like. Oh yeah, exit strategy. Right. And retirement. How's that look? Yeah, like, you know, here's, here's like the last rush. Maybe it's 10 years, but sure. It's like the last push to be able to like comfortably retire. Yeah. You know, and changes your perspective. Will I be able to have something that has a sellable value other than a couple excavators with 3,000 hours on them?

[A]

Yeah, right, exactly.

[B]

So, so there is, there is some effort on my part lately too, to be like, all right, you know, help grow my guys more. Is there a guy here that can take over some of the stuff that

[A]

I'm doing, keep it real.

[B]

It's like it was there interest in this company from anybody that you know, hey, we're 8 million dollar company. We can easily add a couple million in sales with someone who's doing the same level quality of high end stonework hardscape that we're doing and expand our footprint, maybe, who knows?

[A]

Yes, absolutely. There's so many options.

[B]

It's so easy to not think about that stuff.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

You know, it's like in like your health and your. My back. Like I'm just about a year anniversary from my back surgery. Really? Like you don't. Yeah, last. I've had a hard year. I've had a hard couple of years between getting ready for surgery, which is PT and cortisone shots and acupuncture and chiropractor and none of those work. Okay, now we'll give you surgery.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the surgery is, it's. I've been like, as you said, it's been almost a year and I'm in PT again. So like. And I wouldn't listen to this. When I was in my 30s either.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, we got to lay a tackle block, blue, grande, slide by hand, whatever. Then we'll do it. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now it's like, okay, well,

[A]

your

[B]

vertebrae aren't too happy with you right now, you know, because the stuff you did when you were younger.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So all this stuff here, you know, tilt rotators, suction lifters. That stuff wasn't around when I first started and God, I wish it was. So, I mean, I would, like, I tell guys, the younger guys, like, if you can make room for that stuff, somehow you got to get it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're not going to last.

[A]

You just.

[B]

Are you going to spend your retirement, like with a walker?

[A]

I mean, this is really good for everybody listening to here because, like, look, if you are in your 30s, not paying yourself and cranking out 80 hour work weeks and not investing into your team and your business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And.

[B]

And you end up disabled. Yeah.

[A]

Right. Then you get to, then you get to where you are in your season of life and your journey in business and it's like, dude, like, I had all those years of opportunity to at least set myself up better. Right. But where you're at now, the options or the amount of, you know, what's that analogy? Like if a plane changes 1 degree of direction when it leaves San Diego or something like that. Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

By the time you get to the east coast, you're hundreds of miles apart.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And so changing it back at the beginning is way more effective than changing it where you are now, you know? So anyway, message is, if you're not paying yourself, your customers are getting you for free. Are you okay with that? I doubt it.

[B]

Shouldn't be. Yeah, don't be.

[A]

Yeah. What would you say is the best advice you've ever been given?

[B]

Well, this is. This has always stuck with me. And I thought of this before because you ask everybody this, Right. So I entered the workforce really young. Yeah, like, 19 was what I considered my first real job.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

I was going to school at night and I was working, trying to pay my bills and I was taking a class for technical writing. I actually landed a job where my stepdad was employed as a. It was kind of an entry level job in that company as a technical writer. That's a tangent I kind of went off. But anyways, the owner of that company, one of the first things he said was he said this to a group, not me individually. But if I ever hear anybody here say, that's not my job, you won't Have a job. So I think that lesson of never feeling like you're too important or above a certain task for the betterment of whoever you're working for, yourself or somebody else, just sort of that selflessness that you sometimes need to have in business or as an employee. So that lesson has always kind of stuck with me. And I may not do all of those things anymore. I may ask someone else to do it, but I certainly paid my dues. Doing dirty work.

[A]

It's not that you have to do the dirty work. It's an attitude, you know?

[B]

Yes. And I think that's probably what he was coming from, is like, we're a team here, and no one is above the team. You do what needs to be done for the success of all. Yep. So.

[A]

So if that means I have to clean the toilets.

[B]

Yeah. It means you do what you got to do to make this place work. Right?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's easier said than done. And it's easy to kind of lose. It's kind of. It's easy to be tone deaf and maybe, like, not realize that I'm getting away.

[B]

Like, I'm too good for that. I'm skilled.

[A]

None of us are perfect in this.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

So being you have had a couple decades now of your. Of your journey, like, what would you say is the. If you were go back to your. To the beginning of your business journey, what is one thing you do differently?

[B]

Well, I think over the years, I've realized. And this. This is just me personally, it could be different. I'm sure it's different for someone else, but I've been much more happier in business the last five years on my own because I also decided, all right, I'm not, like, feeding the beast anymore. We don't have three crews or four crews, and we're not doing all these other services. When I focus on what I really like doing, and actually the last five years is when I really sold natural stone work a lot harder. So it was what I wanted to do. I'm like, I'm going to keep doing this. I really. I want to enjoy this. So I cut off some builders we were working for because I didn't enjoy doing that work. So I guess what I would do differently is not worry about trying to build a big landscape company to be everything to everybody, But I focus on doing what I enjoy doing and building what I like building. And just try to try to make your job not feel so much like a job because you're doing, like you're looking forward to Go to work to build whatever it is you're planning to build that day.

[A]

Like, don't just. Yeah. And the other thing to play into that is opportunity cost. Like, every time you say yes to that job, you don't.

[B]

Oh. Learning to say no is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Super powerful.

[A]

Literally. The guy I just interviewed on the podcast last said the exact same.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It's how you feel. You know, like I said when. When I first started trying to be everything to everybody and never saying no. And. And. And then, like, as time went by, like, not saying no and knowing you're gonna regret doing that project even if, like, you're profitable on it, knowing I'm not gonna enjoy it, finally, when I stopped doing that, it's like, it's so empowering to be like, I'm sorry, Mrs. Jones, but I don't think that we're a good fit for that project. But I have a colleague next town over that does. I'm sure he would probably be really interested in this. And, like.

[A]

Yeah, I like the way you get. You said that because, like, if you're not arrogant about it, you literally, like, you try to be helpful. Like, you treat your customer. You treat every customer or every lead. I should say, treat them like your grandmother. Courtesy, respect, Be helpful, you know, because

[B]

you never know what. Mike, you may get another lead from that person just because of the way you treated them when you wanted to say no to them. Yeah. Just like, going into a neighborhood, I always tell my guys, you know, like, hey, we're guests in this neighborhood. So, like, don't leave our crap all over the room. Sweep the street when we're done. Don't make unnecessary dust.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when the house three doors down needs a patio, like, they're gonna remember.

[A]

They're gonna respect that. Yeah, exactly. And I often tell people, like, when it's a pricing thing, you said, even when it's not a pricing thing, just not enjoy it. Which is even more empowering, like you were saying. But I often tell people like that feel like they should take the job because it's, you know, right in front of them, but it's not profitable. It's not priced right. Is like, I often tell them, like, you know, don't. Don't torture yourself for walking away from a job that you were never going to make a dollar from. Like, what?

[B]

Yeah, what? Right.

[A]

What do you have to gain?

[B]

Yeah. You know, and I guess what I'm saying is, like, don't torture yourself taking on a job that you don't want to do.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And to that point back to the whole courtesy thing. It's like sometimes this is. Again, this only works for pricing, not for the enjoyment part. But like, sometimes you're selling Ferraris and you get a Kia buyer walking in your door and the best thing you can do is again, serve them like your grandmother, make them a cup of coffee, give them directions to the Kia dealership.

[B]

Yeah, right, right.

[A]

Like they'll never forget that. You're not going to make them feel like. I, I remember experiences I've had at Tuscan Landscaping where, you know, somebody wants a. Shows you a picture. It's a multi six figure project.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they tell you they've been saving for years for this. They can't wait. They have a lot of money saved up for this. And to them a lot of money is 20 grand.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and like, and the embarrassment they feel when they're, when they, when you're like, oh, my goodness. So you have to, like, you have to like, again, courtesy, respect. You do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Treat them like your grandmother. Absolutely. And also as a contractor, don't torture yourself when you, when you're saying no to a customer that should have never been your customer anyway. You weren't gonna, you weren't set up for it. You weren't gonna make money at it. Like, it's just like, get that no as fast as you can if you're gonna get it.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

And move on to the next one.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, there's a contractor for every client and like, it may not be you.

[A]

And, and you could also flip the script on that and build your business to be the Kia provider.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

You know, it doesn't have to. It's not right. My analogy isn't meant that you have to be all high end. No. It's like you can be a Kia provider too, but that's a very different business structure. I mean, infrastructure, different team, different, different product, different buyer. And your marketing's gonna be different. Like it's. You kind of have to decide who you want to be and then build for that, you know? But yeah, no, it's. Saying no is hard.

[B]

It can be, but once you learn it, it's fine.

[A]

Yeah. I hope I get better at it. So where can people find you? I know we talked about Instagram.

[B]

I do believe it's Green Monster Landscapes. There's a Facebook page that occasionally gets some love. Not too often. Started a TikTok. I was convinced to start a TikTok last year, saying, I don't know, it's probably green. Anything green Monster.

[A]

Yeah, just searching Monster.

[B]

You'll find it. GM landscapes.com search green monster and look

[A]

for the profile with a bunch of excavators and tilt rotators and natural stone. You'll find it.

[B]

There you go. That sounds.

[A]

Well, Mark, I just want to say thank you for all the, you know, the trust and the credit, the faith that you put into synctop.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And how many people know that I used to do database? Not very many. Not very many.

[A]

Isn't that crazy? I know. How many years ago was that?

[B]

That was that job I talked about as a technical writer. They needed some in house software and they couldn't find anything. So we decided to build it and they recruited me to do it and sent me to some training. So that was circa 94.

[A]

Very different world in software.

[B]

Yeah. I remember things like Lotus 1, 2, 3 and I don't even know what dos know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I remember watching my dad. Oh really?

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

I remember watching my dad work on DOS as a kid. Like I was probably, I was probably five and I remember him, I remember him working on that.

[B]

I remember when WYSIWYG came out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

When he sees what you.

[B]

Yeah. Graphic. Yeah. That was way before graphics or any of that stuff.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's. And now, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The pace of development, the pace of innovation is just. It's skyrocketing.

[B]

Yeah, right. Yeah. The pace of technology and how fast things move. And we talked about it earlier today with AI. How quickly. Almost at a scary pace.

[A]

Yeah. Almost like I can't keep up. Like every three weeks it's all new, you know.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But you know, you live or you die, you fight or you sink. You know, you. And sure there's, there's some aspects where, depending what it is you do for work or whatever that you're more insulated from, from the volatility of it. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But yeah, for us at Syncdub, man, it's like. Okay, here's. Let me say about. This is one thing I want to say about syncdub. At the end of the day, the business problem that needs to be solved is the same. You need to price your work profitably, you need to track your work, you need to use your history to feed into your future proposals to be more accurate.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Those business problems don't change. How, how they get solved is what changes.

[B]

So we're going to have better tools to be.

[A]

You're going to be better. Yeah, it's a little Bit like in the industrial. In the industrial revolution, there was, you know, ditches needed dug. And before the industrial, before, you know, industrialization, 40 people would dig a ditch with picks and shovels.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Today it takes one or two people with machines. So the ditch is still getting dug.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's just that how you get it dug is very different.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So, yeah, so there's some things that aren't going to change. The ditches still need dug, but just the way in which it gets dug,

[B]

how we're getting there. Yeah.

[A]

So anyway, I was showing you all. Yeah, I was showing off some. Now we're getting on tangents when we're supposed to be signing off, but like, I was showing off, like the current prototype that I'm messing with. So back to that whole budget not getting updated problem. It's the friction of a busy owner operator to get back to their desk, flip open the laptop, log in and figure out what they're looking at and keep that budget updated. People don't do it right, you know. And so with AI, I am building this little budget agent that is connected to your system, connected to your budget. And it comes to you and be like, hey, has anything changed recently? Have you bought anything? Or you can, you can chat it and message it and be like, hey, I'm thinking about buying a new truck. My old truck's kind of worn out. Like, what would it do to my rate if I added a truck in there? And that's what I do. Do you think it's a bad idea? It'll like, it'll. You can have a conversation with it because we've trained it on all over thousands of, you know, hours of budget calls, so.

[B]

Right. I know. Again, a little scary. You know, as you get older, this stuff is harder to adopt sometimes.

[A]

But just, just start. You're texting Fred.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or texting. I said we were talking about this

[B]

earlier on the floor and, you know, it's like I'm either going to take my phone out and give myself a voice reminder to go back and update

[A]

and do the thing. Yeah.

[B]

Or I open my phone and I

[A]

just get it done.

[B]

To open my budget and update it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah.

[A]

So one example.

[B]

One example.

[A]

Well, you ready for dinner?

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

Let's go get some dinner. Thanks again. Really appreciate your support too. You know, there is no perfection in relationships. And, you know, I just want to say thank you for riding the rocky road of growth with us. You know, like changing systems, updating systems. Like, it's not change management. Is hard. People don't want things to change.

[B]

Well, I think it's pretty obvious even, like, I think the biggest struggle we had with synced up was the new time stuff last year. But when you can see that there's genuine effort and concern from you guys that we're trying really hard to fix this, we know what's not right. Please be patient. You know, I think that's worth hanging on through something like that when. When you have a provider that you know they own up to. Like, this is not what we expected. And yeah, we're trying, we're doing our best to take away this pain as quick as we can, so.

[A]

And we learned some hard lessons through that. And like it was a perfect storm of various angles that all kind of turned into a perfect storm. But like, yeah, it did. You know, our customers did. We did have to be patient with us for a period of.

[B]

It's probably gonna help you guys the way you implement future.

[A]

Absolutely. We learned some good lessons. Yeah.

[B]

So as end users, we're all going to benefit from that for sure.

[A]

Problem.

[B]

Yeah, eventually too.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I'd say the one lesson is don't. Don't do major changes for crew members in the middle of the busy season.

[B]

Bingo.

[A]

You know, if it's spring, fall, whatever, you know, but in the middle of the season. Bad idea.

[B]

Yeah, that was rough. Like the last thing I wanted to hear from my guys was like, you know, what's going on with this? What am I supposed to do? Yeah, I'm like, I don't know, Mick.

[A]

Figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. And we got some really good. We got some really good feedback from the people that were like, you know, talking with us and, and you know, the things that ultimately made the most difference post launch were just tiny little subtle little things. And when we did it, it's like made all the difference, you know, so it wasn't like we had to like throw it all away and start over. It was just like, oh, you guys are landing on this screen and this is what you're expecting and that's not what it's doing. Okay. You know, so anyway, yeah, it was

[B]

just tiny, like almost like this little difficult, like non intuitive things that we were struggling with on that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On our end.

[A]

And that feedback, I mean we, we implemented that feedback rapidly, you know, as rapidly as we were able to. And over the course of about post launch to about six weeks later, it. Things kind of smoothed out.

[B]

Yeah. Much better.

[A]

So. Okay, well, thanks again.

[B]

Thanks Wes.

[A]

Appreciate you. Let's go get you a steak.

[B]

Let's do it. Okay. Thank you.

[A]

Hey, thanks for listening to the Cost of Doing Business show. If you need help with knowing your numbers or you're looking for a better automated system to run estimating and scheduling and job costing or more in your business, just hit me up. You can book a [e-mail] or DM me on Instagram inkedup, which is spelled S Y N K E D U P. See you on the next one.