Customer Acquisition Through Closed-Loop Sampling with Recess CEO Jack Shannon & Advisor Mike Feldman

Summary

The CPG Guys Podcast: Customer Acquisition Through Closed-Loop Sampling with Recess CEO Jack Shannon & Advisor Mike Feldman

Release Date: May 24, 2025

In this insightful episode of The CPG Guys, hosts Peter V.S. Bond and Sree Rajagopalan delve into the evolving landscape of consumer packaged goods (CPG) marketing with special guests Jack Shannon, CEO and Co-Founder of Recess, and Mike Feldman, Strategic Advisor to Recess. The discussion centers on leveraging closed-loop sampling as a potent tool for customer acquisition within the burgeoning realm of retail media networks (RMNs).

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1. Introduction to Retail Media and Experiential Sampling

The conversation kicks off with an exploration of the current state of retail media. Mike Feldman provides a seasoned perspective, highlighting the rapid growth and subsequent maturation of RMNs over the past decade:

“We're starting to see that growth plateau. CPCs are going up, ad load on the different RMNs is increasing, incrementality is plummeting...”
—Mike Feldman [06:18]

Jack Shannon complements this by emphasizing the critical role of experiential marketing within RMNs:

“Experiential marketing, we're seeing it become a critical growth channel and opportunity for retail media networks.”
—Jack Shannon [07:58]

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2. Challenges in Traditional Experiential Marketing

The hosts and guests discuss the inherent challenges of traditional experiential marketing, notably issues of scale, targeting precision, and measurability. Mike articulates the difficulty brands face in justifying sampling initiatives without concrete data linking them to sales outcomes:

“Everyone is doing sampling for the trial but then being able to prove out that then led to purchase and repeat has always been such a challenge.”
—Mike Feldman [16:14]

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3. Recess’s Closed-Loop Sampling Solution

Jack Shannon introduces Recess’s innovative approach to experiential sampling, which integrates digital precision into real-world engagements. He outlines how the pandemic catalyzed a shift towards scalable, data-driven sampling methods:

“Instead of having their teams go out to these locations, we could ship the product to those locations... and make it a full omnichannel program.”
—Jack Shannon [11:16]

This model allows Recess to execute sampling across thousands of locations with consistent execution, targeting specific consumer segments based on comprehensive data analytics.

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4. Data-Driven Targeting and Measurement

A core theme of the episode is the importance of data in enhancing the effectiveness of experiential marketing. Mike Feldman emphasizes the necessity of closed-loop measurement systems to validate marketing spend:

“If you can't measure whether you move the needle, then what are you doing it for?”
—Sree Rajagopalan [17:20]

Jack elaborates on Recess’s methodology, utilizing anonymized cell phone data to identify and target specific consumer behaviors and demographics:

“We use tons of signals from cell phone data... to understand... if we're talking about a gym like an F45, we can look at the cell phones that were present at that gym and then where did those go the other 365 days out of the year.”
—Jack Shannon [20:00]

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5. Strategic Partnerships with Retailers

The partnership between Recess and Dollar General serves as a pivotal example of how closed-loop sampling can align with retailer objectives. Jack discusses how this collaboration allows for precise targeting and accountability in measuring campaign effectiveness:

“So, it's being authentically distributed. ... tying it back to the retailer... a couple of different ways that we're kind of driving traffic and driving sales back to the retailer.”
—Jack Shannon [23:37]

Mike adds that such partnerships enable brands to integrate experiential marketing seamlessly into their retail media strategies, enhancing both top-of-funnel engagement and bottom-line sales:

“You can do the best of what you can do off site by doing these great experiential opportunities. But Recess now has this aligned to the JVP.”
—Mike Feldman [29:13]

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6. Content Creation and Amplification

A significant advantage of Recess’s approach is the ability to transform sampling events into rich social media content. Mike highlights how user-generated content (UGC) from these events can amplify brand messages exponentially:

“Sampling is this limited, not scalable thing. But the more you can turn that into content and then you post into TikTok and other platforms... the most impactful way.”
—Mike Feldman [24:30]

This strategy not only extends the reach of sampling programs but also fosters authentic consumer engagement through platforms like TikTok and Instagram.

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7. Aligning Retail Media with Joint Business Plans (JBPs)

The discussion shifts to the integration of experiential sampling within Joint Business Plans (JBPs), emphasizing a shift towards Joint Value Creation (JVC):

“Retail media can be an anchor for driving JVC because it's the entire funnel where you can focus on the customer...”
—Peter V.S. Bond [35:23]

Mike underscores the importance of aligning brand and retailer incentives to ensure that experiential marketing efforts contribute meaningfully to mutual growth objectives:

“It fits into the similar workflow that they already know... a win for the brand, for the retailer and ultimately the consumer as well.”
—Jack Shannon [38:31]

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8. Future Trends and Directions

Looking ahead, Jack Shannon outlines Recess’s strategy to expand its partnerships and enhance data capabilities, aiming to make in-real-life (IRL) media as measurable and performative as digital channels:

“We want to make IRL media as measurable and performative as digital.”
—Jack Shannon [32:07]

Mike anticipates continued growth in off-site retail media channels, driven by the need for more accountable and emotionally resonant consumer engagements.

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9. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with the hosts and guests reiterating the transformative potential of closed-loop sampling within the CPG and retail media ecosystems. The integration of data-driven strategies into experiential marketing not only addresses longstanding challenges but also opens new avenues for authentic consumer connections and sustainable growth.

Jack Shannon and Mike Feldman provided invaluable perspectives on how Recess is pioneering innovative solutions that bridge the gap between traditional sampling and modern, data-centric marketing strategies. Their insights underscore the critical role of measurement, targeting, and strategic partnerships in driving effective customer acquisition in today’s complex retail landscape.

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Notable Quotes:

• “Everyone is doing sampling for the trial but then being able to prove out that then led to purchase and repeat has always been such a challenge.”
  —Mike Feldman [16:14]

• “If you can't measure whether you move the needle, then what are you doing it for?”
  —Sree Rajagopalan [17:20]

• “We want to make IRL media as measurable and performative as digital.”
  —Jack Shannon [32:07]

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For more insights and discussions on CPG and retail media strategies, visit cpgguys.com.

Transcript

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Chain Drug Review's focus is on reaching the key decision makers across all retail channels, delivering comprehensive coverage of the latest shopping trends and in depth category analysis on health, beauty, over the counter products and wellness. Whether it's the latest trends, emerging technologies, or strategies for adapting to new consumer behaviors, Mass Market retailers deliver the critical information retailers need to navigate this dynamic environment. To subscribe to the newsletters of CDR and mmr, simply follow the hyperlinks in the digital liner notes of this episode. Chain Drug Review and Mass Market Retailers are published by Retail Media iq.

[Mike Feldman]

Hi, I'm Mike Feldman.

[Jack Shannon]

Hi, I'm Jack Shannon, co founder and CEO of Recess, an experiential sampling company and you're listening to the CPG Guys.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Welcome to the CPG Guys Podcast. Your host, Sree Rajagopalan and Peter Vs. Bond explore how brand brands and retailers engage consumers in an increasingly digitally driven world. And now, here are the CPG Guys.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

Hello and welcome to this episode of the CPG Guys Podcast. I'm of course Sree, co founder, co host of the CPG Guys, co founder and partner, Think Blue Consulting, who has builders, connectors and amplifiers. We shape the future of commerce to drive your growth. Get in touch with us at SRI thinkblueconsulting. Co that's co not. Com. Please do listen to my older daughter Rhea Raj's music. Big at the time of this recording. Big, big, big surprise out later tonight with one of the biggest bands in history as a songwriter. Do check it out. And also my younger daughter Lara Raj, as a member of the Geffen Records Universal Music Group. Katseye I am en route back from Korea and they've just launched their next banger, Gnarly by Katseye. Joining me today is of course my fellow co founder Peter V. Espan. When he's not co hosting this podcast, he serves as head of industry and client engagement of Flywheel, the E Commerce accelerator acceleration division of Omnicom. Mr. Peter V. S Bond. How's it going over there? I'm assuming you're in Connecticut. Looking at your background, it tells me so.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Yeah, I am. Sree. I was just listening to my Best of playlist from Maroon 5. I love that band. It's awesome. Anyhow, how you doing, man? What's going on?

[Peter V. S. Bond]

I haven't slept in like a week. Actually. I've been on the road 14 days now. Started all the way at the Nielsen Advisory Board in Chicago, then headed over to NACDS over the weekend down in Palm Beach. And most people say Palm Beach. That must be attractive. But we're working Friday through Monday, then headed over to Seoul to see the launch of the song, which was awesome. Getting to radio stations and MTV and whatnot. So hopefully things are good in Connecticut. I look forward to some decent weather in Los Angeles. Hopefully our guest today can tell us how warm it is in Los Angeles, because it was actually pretty decent in Seoul.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Here's my question. Does the breakers finally offer a plant based hot dog at the beach club that that rivals the $27 meat hot dog that they sell there?

[Peter V. S. Bond]

I'll tell you what, I was disappointed by the dog at Wrigley Stadium. That was below average, man, for the price that they charged.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

It was not a Dodger. It was not a Dodger meatless dog, was it?

[Peter V. S. Bond]

No, the Dodger Dogs. It's California, so clam based stuff is always like top notch, right? Anyway, before we get to our guests, let me ask you to consider following us on Apple podcast. Leave us a rating because the rating tells us how we're doing it at podcast. We appreciate a review. The review tells us we're having the right conversations with the right guests. And now the main event. Today's guest is a returning voice to the CPG guys and one of the most interesting thinkers in the retail media and experiential space. As RMNs mature, new types of media needed to reach consumers beyond the digital shelf. One such opportunity in our opinion is experiential sampling. And no one's pioneering this more than Jack Shannon, co founder and CEO of Recess. Also joining us today is Mike Feldman, strategic advisor to Recess and a long term leader in commerce, retail media and agency strategy. Mike brings a unique lens from years spent helping brands, platforms and agencies navigating this evolving landscape. How's it going? Mike and Jack.

[Jack Shannon]

Hey Sree and Peter, thanks so much for having me back. Huge fan of the show and really excited to dig into what we're seeing in the space and how Recess is helping brands win in the real world. And today, like you mentioned, I'm joined by Mike Feldman, one of our advisors who's helping us position Recess within the broader commerce and retail media landscape. So it's been a exciting collaboration on the evolution of IRL influence together and we're excited to be back on the show. How are you guys doing? Lots of travel.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

It sounds like we're rocking it, man. Mike, how you doing? Good to see you. All the way from sunny Atlanta, Georgia, huh?

[Mike Feldman]

Exactly. Yeah. Long time listener, first time caller, first time appear on the show. So really excited to be joining the crew and especially Talking about what Jack and I have been cooking up from an IRL influence standpoint, it's been really exciting times in the. I'll say. Beyond even sampling, like where we're going with experiential.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

What do you think, Peter? He said first time caller. Should we take live calls on the show?

[Sree Rajagopalan]

God, no, Sri, I don't think we can handle that.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

You don't want to be like. You don't want to be like Caller Daddy and Joe Rogan.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Oh, my God. No, no, no. You and I are way too old for that.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

You don't want to be like, call you Daddy instead of call her Daddy.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

I'll call you Shree. You call me pvsp. I think we're good.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

All right, let's keep it business. That's what you want. Thanks to both you gentlemen for joining us today. And of course, we'll include links to your company's page, your profiles on LinkedIn, and of course, on liner notes of this episode. So let me start first and Jack and Mike. I'll go with you first, Mike. Retail media is growing fast, but also maturing. You and I have had enough conversations on retail media. Favorite topic, actually, at the time of this recording, we're actually launching a executive program with Cornell University next week, which I know, Jack, you would have been a part of, but Mike, it's your first time on. Tell us a bit about your background. Love to hear from you about what macro sense you're seeing in the industry and how it relates to what you're doing with three SaaS.

[Mike Feldman]

Yeah, absolutely. So I have been in, I'll say, the retail media game for 12, 13 years now as part of the crew that did one of the first ever Amazon advertising upfronts. And I'll even say even before that, I was sort of born for this type of role. My dad was a retail consultant for Wholesale Club. So I spent my childhood doing store visits to then, you know, one of the, you know, first players in sort of that Amazon advertising space and have been riding the retail media rocket ship ever since. But I'd say sort of the reason I'm here today and where things are going is that really we're starting to see that growth plateau. Or really, I would say more we're going to continue to see growth, but that growth is more of a house of cards where we're seeing things like sponsor product and retail search, which was one of the primary levers when, you know, sort of got into it earlier those things. CPCs are going up, AD load on the different RMNs is increasing, incrementality is plummeting, and everyone is looking for better and better opportunities. And so that's where I speak to so many different brands and agencies on a regular basis. And what they're looking for is truly more impactful opportunities. Like again, everyone is seeing those diminishing returns. And so that's where my mindset I go to what it, what are consumers actually responding to? And people aren't responding to the sea of sponsored products anymore. What they're responding to is more of that emotional connection. And that's where Jack and I certainly hit it off from what Recess is doing in the space.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

So Jack, he said all the buzzwords here. Am I supposed to be quiet with retail media now? He said incrementality. And I as a host, am I just supposed to watch that? In any event, Jack, what about you?

[Sree Rajagopalan]

What do you think?

[Jack Shannon]

Yeah, I mean, echoing what Mike saying, I think in our world, experiential marketing, we're seeing it become a critical growth channel and opportunity for retail media networks. You look at folks like Walmart and Sam's Club, they're already recognizing the value of these IRL type experiences. They're doing things in parking lots and popping up store within a store within Walmart. So I think those types of opportunities are engaging with consumers in a way that only digital cannot. And what Mike was kind of getting at on the, the emotional side, the IRL influence side of things. So I think, you know, experiential has a big role to play in the retail media ecosystem. I think we're in the, the first inning to use a baseball analogy here on the, on the CPG guys. But I think there's a real opportunity for those types of programs to help grow the retail media landscape, to help tap into incremental brand dollars for Armen, shifting some of that budget, you know, into channels that are both experiential but can also be performative as well. So, you know, looking at it as kind of a new type of retail media product in a new type of offering. So yeah, really excited to chat through what we're seeing in that space today. Kind of how Recess is, is leading the way through some of our strategic partnerships with retail media networks and you know, taking, taking things beyond sampling as, as Mike mentioned, really taking it to a precision and accountability of performance media, you know, beyond just kind of the, the traditional tactics and models.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

The gentleman in the blue shirt was recognized for speaking and he used a baseball analogy. Hi ho, what were you saying, Mike?

[Mike Feldman]

I was just gonna say like sri, I know you latched onto the incrementality, but that's where, you know, I think it's so interesting is that that's why, you know, so many people are responding to retail media because it's those really quick feedback loops tied to accountable sales information. And so that's where I think a lot of the goals is how are we redefining experiential marketing with that same data driven approach? And so, you know, integrating with a lot of the RMNs to provide those accountable feedback loops, but also like again with that consumer in mind, like creating those real life engagement examples, but then tying it all to the promise that retail media brings the data, the connection, the consumer experience. And so connecting those two has been super exciting.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Mike, welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you as a first time caller. Jack, terrific to have you back. And I'm looking forward to spending a couple days next week on Roosevelt island in New York City at the Cornell Retail Media Strategy course. I think it's going to be when I look at the roster of people that are going to be at that event, who's sitting in the room, who's presenting, I think to my fellow Wesleyan alum Lin Manuel Miranda, when I say that this will truly be the room where it happens. So let's take a step back. I want our listeners that didn't get to hear you in our first episode. Jack, tell us what led you to launch recess and, and really how did the pandemic actually end up shaping your model for success?

[Jack Shannon]

Yeah, well, maybe I should say Professor Bond. Is that right? Is that, is that the next adjunct.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Adjunct Professor Bond, Cornell University Johnson School of Business? But yeah, you can call, you can call me Professor PVSP.

[Jack Shannon]

There we go. PP2PS there now. Well, yeah, thanks Peter. And I think for us it started with a simple insight. People trust what they experience. And experiential marketing, myself and my co founder, we got our start as event organizers ourselves. So we knew the power of in person marketing. Experiential, but also a lot of the challenges. It's historically been limited in scale, hard to target, hard to measure, expensive. And so coming out of the pandemic we saw a couple of things. One, brands were, as things ramped up, were desperate to reconnect back physically with consumers in those IRL moments. But at the same time they couldn't send their teams out to those locations, into those places to activate, to reach consumers. And so we saw an opportunity where coming out of the pandemic we had drive in movie theaters and all different types of locations that were reaching out to us to sign up to our our marketplace. We had built a marketplace that helps existing field marketing teams at companies like Red Bull find events and locations to pop at and execute programs. But they couldn't do that anymore. But we still saw this opportunity. Instead of having their teams go out to these locations, we could ship the product to those locations. At this case, coming out of the pandemic, it was a drive in movie theater and have that team distribute the products, execute a marketing program that expanded to digital out of home on the big screen at that event, social amplification, sending coupons and emails post purchase to make it a full omnichannel program. And that's when the light bulb kind of went off for us and we saw how scalable that model could be as opposed to relying on a traditional agency or a field team kind of relying on these networks and communities that are already in, you know, in and around the stores and retailers that are so important to the CPG brands that we work with. And so that's really what our model evolved to. And we now have thousands of locations From K through 8 schools to where products are distributed to parents at parent pickup line from the teachers or to college campuses on college move in day or major festivals. So all different types of communities and places and locations where we can be reaching consumers. And then we also layered in a data and a retailer targeting that allows you to understand which of those locations had the highest percentage of Walmart shoppers or Kroger shoppers or Target shoppers. So if you wanted to get really specific and reach Walmart shoppers at K through 8 schools during parent pickup that over indexed on a Hispanic consumer across the top 20 DMAs. That level of precision you can get from digital marketing but it wasn't possible before in kind of IRL or experiential marketing. So wanted to bring that level of targeting and precision and measurement to this IRL space.

[Mike Feldman]

Yeah, frankly it's solving some of the biggest pain points out there. Like I think sampling is obviously as old as shopper marketing and in store activities. But the challenge has always been and where Jack is going is, you know, the targeting on the front end is always such a major challenge. Like you're just popping into the store and sort of you get who's walking into the store that day and that's all you can do. And then even bigger challenges on the measurement on the back end. Like everyone is doing sampling for the trial but then being able to prove out that then Then that led to purchase and repeat and that has always been such a challenge for brands. And then I'll even give a third sort of third leg to the stool there is that I think that moment and that emotional impact of trying samples is, is so great from a creative standpoint like as you think about where the consumer is evolving and how they're, you know, in social like that sort of FOMO and like seeing people enjoy the heck out of products is such a powerful thing. And so yeah with, with Recess being able to target those specific cohorts and audiences in a really accurate way, the partnerships with the retailers to be able to measure it with really accountable feedback loops. And then I love the digital extensions as well. Not only in terms of the audience targeting in those cohorts, but also the UGC and the great content that is created from those moments. It's taking this thing that feels so small that is sampling in store and it creates this really robust experiential, in real life influence.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Mike, I think what's most interesting about what you said is the measurement aspect. You know, I live in the Northeast, I've worked in New York City for many years. The number of countless sampling events I've seen at Grand Central Terminal or Penn Station. And as a lifelong market research professional, at least from a professional career perspective, lifelong, it always frustrated me when I thought how are they measuring this? Like this is a vanity play. This is about taking pictures and then going back to headquarters and showing off to the CEO or the cmo. Look, we did this really cool sampling event where we created a beach on Vanderbilt right next to Grand Central. But did you actually move the needle? And what I think you guys have been able to latch onto is a mechanism that ties into closed loop measurements so you can actually understand did it move the needle? If you can't measure whether you move the needle, then what are you doing it for?

[Mike Feldman]

Yeah, especially as we're facing, I'd say every brand is holding every single dollar so much more accountable. Like you think about tariffs and where the economy is going. We need to prove the performance. And so yeah, sampling great in theory, but if you can't measure it then you're not going to continue to get your investors on board. And so yeah, huge unlock being able to show did this drive sales long term value and which types of audiences were most effective?

[Peter V. S. Bond]

Well, the gentleman in the hockey jersey from the project called Canada OI up North wasn't recognized but he spoke anyway. What were you saying, Jack?

[Jack Shannon]

I was saying I was just talking to to the point on, on needing measurement and data. I was talking to a marketer today actually, and they were, their team was talking about getting T shirts made that said no data, no dollars, no data, no budget at the end of the day. So. And Peter, I think you're spot on. I mean, you know, I obviously have a passion point for those high impact moments, but they are traditionally done for more top of funnel. It's a PR play, it's a buzz play. It's so you're getting, you know, kind of written up. But is that translating down to driving sales, you know, nationwide at key accounts and key retailers? And is that really ultimately going to move the needle? So I think it's an important part of the marketing mix at the end of the day. But I do think there are alternatives today, one of which is one of our products, but a different way of approaching that type of in person marketing that can be more full funnel. It can achieve those top of funnel metrics, but it can be performative as well and can actually move the needle on velocity and sales in a way that's going to impact the bottom line.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Sheree, did I hear another quotable T shirt moment come up there? No data, no dollars. Is that something the CPG guys are going to have to emblazon on a series of T shirts as our next generation? What do you think?

[Peter V. S. Bond]

I'm gonna go with no dinero, no truvajo. Now you guys can Google that. Take a minute. Google it. But Jack, in any event, you got into data and you started talking about the connection between leveraging data and analytics, how you actually match these with brands and with events and venues effectively. Right. And Dollar General Media Network has been top of mind for me because in these I had a chance to meet up with Emily Taylor, their chief merchant about two weeks ago at the retailer of the year. And we were speaking through how the basket size has indeed changed by 10%. So sampling to bring customers back to Dollar General is probably a very important thing for them. Talk to us about how that if you have such a tie and how that works and then how data and analytics are being leveraged.

[Jack Shannon]

Yeah, Dollar General is our first retail partner that we've announced about five weeks ago. So really excited about the partnership with Emily and the rest of the DGMN team over there. But yeah, we had originally had built a business focused primarily on working with brand marketing teams, but with that retailer targeting and the ability that we have now, which to do that, we use tons of signals from cell phone data. So we don't rely on kind of individual sources from the partners or the venues themselves. But we look at a bunch, you know, millions and millions of signals to be able to understand. If we're talking about a gym like an F45, you know, we can look at the cell phones that were present at that gym and then where did those go the other 365 days out of the year? So it's all on, you know, the, the apps that are tracking, tracking your location, all anonymized, you know, all in aggregate, but give some really interesting signals for us to then know out of the networks that we have on our platform. College campuses, fitness studios, drive in movie theaters, all these unique places to reach consumers. Which of those over index on specific audiences of retail shoppers, whether that's Dollar General or Walmart or Kroger. So same methodology that's been applied to digital out of home or a lot of targeting indices based targeting, but just brought to the real world, which was a really exciting release because now it enabled us to say not only do we want to reach consumers within these key moments, but we want to reach Dollar General consumers during parent pickup at K through 8 schools or back to school during key moments around college and universities to reach Gen Z or families at certain places. So having that specific targeting mirroring really like what's happening in off site media. And we really look at this as just another type of off site media channel at the end of the day. So starts with the targeting and then through these programs there is, you know, the, the actual distribution, if there is a sampling component to the program that's happening from the community and the staff at that location. So it's a teacher at a school, you know, handing it to a parent at parent pickup line or you're getting it from your college apartment when you move into that location. So it's being authentically distributed. Which means you could be in a thousand events all across the country or tens of thousands all on the same day with the same consistent execution. And it's a real life kind of IRL influencer who is sharing that product in that message. So tying it back to DG or whichever retailer it might be, all of the collateral from that event. The signage is QR code enabled, it's pointing back to a digital coupon or a page within the DGMN ecosystem if there's social content that's being created on site. So a lot of these groups, they have Instagrams, they have TikToks, they're creating great original authentic social Content that can be amplified with paid and targeted back to specific audiences and then email from those channels as well. So there's a bunch of different ways that we're kind of driving traffic and driving sales back to the retailer. And then we're also tying into their closed loop measurement as well. So looking at if we have this store or this set of events and activities that are happening here are the stores that are closest to those locations. And looking at a traditional and a test first control methodology for, you know, these are the areas that were impacted versus a control to look at lift in sales for that. So I think the key is having that targeting being able to focus in on specific retailer audiences. That hasn't really been possible before. So they've Experiential has just been to have been these broad national campaigns where it makes it tough to really kind of tie it back from a measurement standpoint to a particular account or partner. So yeah, we're really excited about the partnership with Dollar General. We have other retailers that we're adding into this network as well. So more to come there, but really exciting in terms of what we've been working with those partners on so far.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Mike, it's been my impression that Experiential has historically been challenged by scale. What do you see Recess doing differently, particularly as it relates to content and amplification?

[Mike Feldman]

Yeah, so I'll even, I'll go even a step back from Experiential. And if you think about like the total marketing funnel from 20 years ago, like people were watching TV and you know, you couldn't really go anywhere during the ads and so you would get exposed to a couple messages and then in the most case you would trip over a product in store. You know, it was a sea of orange in the laundry detergent aisle and, and you know, for the food categories you would have a couple of different samples but like really limited assortment and options. That entire dynamic has changed where consumer behavior is more fragmented than ever before. And it really is about, especially in a fragmented world, like where can you find those opportunities to scale? And so, you know, as you know, TV and other things have changed. That's where you know, experiential and sampling is ripe for innovation. And to your point, it doesn't scale anymore. In most cases you're doing sampling in a store, you sort of get what you get. But now what we're doing is that we can scale that sampling across thousands of different locations in that, you know, right person, right place, right time, right context, type environment. And then I would Just say even like again to the consumer behavior. And if you think about creative, like you sort of had that one option in tv, but now the biggest and most influential things are coming from things like social. And so like I bought it because of TikTok or you, you know, were able to see someone else and how they interacted with it. And so that's where I get really excited is that, you know, it is your best creative performer and it is not from your TV spot, it's not from your million dollar agency that you're briefing to go sit in a room and come up with ideas. It's the tangible experiencing the product in the wild or. And where I get really excited too is just the distribution of the content as well. That's where, you know, the recess team and then the publishing partners are doing such a great job because social is so prevalent. So to capture that content and see consumers using it in ways that are really native to the platform where the consumer is, they're in TikTok, they're in Instagram, they're in their favorite gym, college campus, you know, community event. And so it's taking those most impactful moments and creating a much better creative opportunity than oh, let's go slap our national TV spot and maybe a retail logo and cross our fingers and hope for the best. This is actually experiencing the product and sort of building that, that energy and that connection with their real life that's going to drive that long term value.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Mike, I was influenced by my favorite K pop band. It's called Touch and it's a song. But sorry, go ahead.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

I'm confused. I'm confused. Peter. He says, he says, TikTok, I've got four clocks around me. They're all silent. So what the heck is he talking about?

[Sree Rajagopalan]

I know, I know, sorry. It's my favorite. Yo, have you ever heard of a band called Cat's Eye? They're my favorite Mike.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

That wasn't like in the 80s when it used to go TikTok. I remember my grand, my grandfather used to use a key to actually tune it and they go tick tock every second. So. What are you talking about, man?

[Mike Feldman]

It was a hit Kesha song, if you're not familiar. No. So I'm only.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

He's gonna make me sing. I say, oh, kicked out of the airport here.

[Mike Feldman]

It'd be warranted with that voice. No, I'm just kidding. But yeah, so even like taking it to the next level too is the, the amplification of the content. And so it's like, hey, we're gonna get the these great moments and then you can turn it over to, to brands, to partners, obviously organic, social, TikTok I think is amazing because of the algorithms and how it's serving to consumers. But then even turning that into paid and the product detail page content like again, I think consumers are very wary to like being sold to. And so how can you make it real and authentic and build that emotional connection is so important to the modern marketing landscape.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

There's no doubt about it. Mike, you actually bought back a memory of mine, childhood memory of Lara. My daughter was a singer in Cat's Eye, her first public appearance on stage. She actually sang TikTok, Kesha's cover. I remember that. And we could not say a bottle of Jack, so we had to say a bottle of Pepsi because I was trained in the Pepsi ecosystem and I remember that pretty fondly. And if you go to YouTube you can probably find that performance just saying, you know, a reminder to audience that we're speaking to Mike Feldman, industry advisor and Jack Shannon from Recess, which is of course an experiential sampling company that the CPG guys partner with. All right gentlemen, maybe you go first Mike. Talk about the value that you are observing in your partnership with Recess and in advising Jack that you actually see across the entire funnel.

[Mike Feldman]

Yeah. So for me I break it down in three ways. The first one is, you know, trial to buy. So obviously sampling is going to be that tip of the spear. You try the product. But again, you know, we had the great conversation. Sree, I wish I wrote it down. What was it? No dinero, no trabajo. Something, something to that effect. But if we can measure it, then you know, we're going to drive those results and so trial to then buy in those partnerships like integrations with Dollar General to be able to take that sample, that opportunity and then measure the effectiveness of the buy. How often are we converting is a great signal. So that's going to be the first pillar the next. And I talked a lot about the content. I think that's your big reach vehicle. You talk about, you know, sampling is this limited, not scalable thing. But the more you can turn that into content and then you post into TikTok and other platforms and let that run. That's where you can take a couple thousand person sampling event and turn it into a couple million of impressions across social channels in the most impactful way. And then ultimately at the end of the day we need to be proving that long term value. And so those audience signals are so key Especially you know, things like being able to tie in, offer redemptions to it, collecting opt ins and that data, that's a two way ecosystem for the brands and the publishing partners. And so building up those data resources to then prove out, you know, get them in the CRM, show the loyalty, the remarketing opportunities that are going to fuel that long term value and give you the hockey stick that you want on performance.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Using a hockey stick reference. Oh no, that's got me now. Now I'm thinking about my usual. No, I'm not, I'm not sure. You know, I used to, I used to use my Gretzky references but I don't do that anymore because political reasons. But we're just going to, we're going to leave. We're going to leave. What the.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

I want to hear that. What the, the.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

The artist formerly known as the Great One. We'll just, we'll just leave it at that. I prefer to remember him when he was in the 2002 Olympics.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

But anyhow, Mariano Rivera has been accused of something. I won't say anything about Gretz.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

Listen, I'm a Jackie Robinson fan. You know that jet number 42 is. Now you're going to come back to the fold and say 42 is about Jackie, not about Mariano. But anyhow, Jack, over to you.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

No, I can't use the 42 reference anymore. After what's out in the public about Rivera.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

I'm done. Really, it's. My heart is breaking.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

I'm actually done, Peter.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

I know, I know. Well, let's take that, let's take that offline tree. Right. Jack, back to you. I want to, I want you to share with us your thoughts on where you're going to take recess next based upon the trends that you're seeing and where you think your business needs to go to be ready for when consumers are adopting that particular engagement mechanism. What are you seeing? What are you thinking about?

[Jack Shannon]

Yeah, I think for consumers and for brands and for retail media networks, one of the biggest trends we see is this idea of real world media becoming mainstream but with targeting, with measurement, kind of bringing it into the 21st century. You know, brands don't just want impressions. They're looking, you know, for that emotional connection. And I think we talk to retail media networks, you know, every week that are looking for new types of inventory, new revenue streams, new opportunities there. I mean beyond even Walmart that we mentioned earlier. You know, Kroger has the wellness festival that they operate. It was just announced that Seven Eleven is sponsoring, you know, a Large Live Nation music festival. So I think continuing to see, I think, I think Sam's Club just maybe even rebranded to the Experience Network. I think it is. So there's, or maybe that was a map tagline but I know they're also leaning really heavily into the Experiences lens. So I think that's going to continue on either side from a retail recess standpoint. Works as I mentioned, expanding that retail media network with the retailers we're partnering with. We're strengthening those data capabilities. We want to make IRL media as measurable and performative as digital. So I think we're looking at other partners that have kind of grown within this ecosystem. A company like ibotta and what they've built with ipn, they've added a number of leading retail media networks and retailers in their stable of partnerships. I think we're looking at it in a similar way. A lot of what we're working with these Armens on is how can we tap into the budgets that are allocated for experiential for partnerships for these other areas that have traditionally been more driven from brand dollars or national media dollars and how can we bring that over into the retail media ecosystem? We were recently working with a brand that had a national campaign where they were, it was a multi retailer campaign but they noticed that certain percentages of that inventory was really highly indexed to certain retailers. And so we ended up just cutting up that program and kind of splitting it apart. Customizing the creative depending on which retailer was the most highly indexed for that gym or that college and able to take that national program and turn it into something that could count for JBP credit with those retailers. So it's, it's kind of a two for one is what we've been hearing from brands is they're saying hey I already have these budgets committed on this side of the house. Let me work with my shopper Omni commerce team and let's align on where this could be deployed and we could one better measure it but also get credit for it at the end of the day and that that two for one combo being really valuable in a world where you know every brands are looking to invest and grow. RMNs need to be driving growth and you know, both sides need to be finding new ways to reach customers and increase sales and velocity at the end of the day.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

How awesome. So I'm going to ask bring up a fearful three letter word but also could be a great three letter word. You know we throw around the word JBP kind of very often in the retail and omnichannel world. JBP is a joint business plan and often it's just an agreement of certain business goals like dollar volume, volume sales, things of that nature and really quarterly trues up for investment to make that happen. It's never about the customer, the shopper, none of that stuff. I've strongly believed that retail media can be an anchor for driving JVC because it's the entire funnel where you can focus on the customer, those who are browsing, those who are buying, those consideration set things of that nature. So as you mentioned, you work closely with retail media networks. How do you plug into those relationships especially when it comes to JBPS to convert to JVCs joint value creation? How can brands unlock upper funnel budget while still getting lower funnel accountability for sales? Mike, maybe you go first on this one.

[Mike Feldman]

Yeah, and I am similarly passionate about the JBP topic because if you think, think about it, you know, and there's what, 200 retail media networks now and every single one of them is being tasked with 20 to 25% year over year growth with JVPs. Their incentives are to try to lock in the dollars so that they can, you know, share the profitability with their stakeholders in the board and you know, keep pushing in that direction. But to your point, that is not with the consumer in mind. Breaking it down though, in reality is a lot of the brands are still opting into these JBPs because the retailer and the RMNs are so important to business. And so we're reaching this point where if everyone's sort of getting their 20 to 25% year over year growth, the amount of dollars to then go do other things is shrinking up really quickly. And so I think one of the best opportunities now is to align incentives. And so if you're a brand right now and you're looking at, you know, an increase 20% at a Walmart or Kroger or an Albertsons or you name it, they're essentially running out of shelf space and things that they can do. Like you're not going to keep adding more sponsored products to the site, you're not going to add a bunch of more display banners because that's really at this point like I would argue we're already there but that's going to tank the consumer experience. And so I think we're, we're seeing the trends and there's data where off site is going to grow significantly quicker. But that's what, where I love the opportunity here is that it does align those incentives. You can do the best of, you know, what you can do off site by doing these great experiential opportunities. But Recess now has this aligned to the jvp. So it's like you can have both, you can have the best of both worlds. You can do the kind of activities that actually work and drive your brand and have it count towards these JBPs in a way where everyone is sort of winning. The brands can do the things they want to do, but it's tied into those retail ecosystems in a way that it can count, check the box and can keep moving in the right direction. So I think solves like this is absolutely where it's going. I think Jack is definitely trailblazing with some of these partnerships in Marketplace.

[Jack Shannon]

Yeah, we've seen it where, where the brands don't have to fight uphill internally to fund something new. It fits into the similar workflow that they already know. Maybe it's about brand teams and omnishopper teams aligning on some of those. But I think if we're focused on if we can plug into that process and unlock some growth and drive that kind of two for one bonus. That's a win for the brand, for the retailer and ultimately the consumer as well.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

You brought up something, Mike, that I was just referring to some insights that eMarketer released in November of last year. It showed the two biggest retail media networks that their product search results have been monetized to the point of 99% like virtually complete saturation. There is no more inventory. And so what do you do when there's no more inventory? You drive up the price, the cost goes through the roof. That's the answer. That's not the answer. You look for other ways to engage consumers and obviously the way you've articulated the in real life value of experiential is quite compelling. So Jack, let's say there's a brand out there, they hear what you're talking about. They think experiential can be interesting. They really like the scale capability and they're particularly attracted to the targetability of audiences based on signals. How do they get ahold of you? What's the, the best way to. To contact Recess and learn more?

[Jack Shannon]

Yeah, so our website is. Recess is unique. Unique is. Or connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm/Shannon Jack. Or you can search me on LinkedIn. So I think, or maybe, maybe that'll be in the liner notes of the episode. So. But yeah, always happy to jam with or talk to a brand about how we can bring emotion and effectiveness back into their media mix or their retail media mix, and would love to connect with anybody that's interested in learning more.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

All right, let me remind our listeners you can find all of our content by simply going to a web Browser and typing cpguys.com as the actual URL. If you or someone you know has something to contribute to this ongoing discussion on the CPG Guys, please drop us a [e-mail] Again that email is contactpguys.com to our audience. Thank you for the clicks, likes, comments, DMs, meeting us at trade shows, coming to our events, recording episodes with us and our sponsors. We are always grateful for you. The show doesn't exist without all of you. You work with us all year. We're grateful to have you as our audience and partners from the bottom of our hearts. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Peter, Mike, Jack, thank you for joining me on this episode of the CPG Guys.

[Jack Shannon]

Thanks sri. Thanks Peter. See you guys next week.

[Peter V. S. Bond]

That's a wrap of this episode. See you soon on the CPG Guys.

[Sree Rajagopalan]

The content in this podcast episode is provided for general informational purposes only. By listening to our episode, you understand that no information contained in this episode should be construed as advice from CPG Guys, LLC where the individual author, hosts or guests, nor is it intended to be a substitute for research on any subject matter. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by CPGuys LLC. The views expressed by Guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. The views expressed by CPTGuys LLC do not represent the views of their employers or the entity they represent. CPT Guys LLC expressly disclaims any and all liability or responsibility for any direct, indirect, incidental, special, consequential, or other damages arising out of any individual's use of, reference to, or inability to use this podcast or the information we present in this podcast.