← The CPG Guys
The CPG Guys
Driving Full Funnel Brand Equity Through Tubi with PepsiCo's Caitlin Winsor and Tubi's Chris Grillo
00:51:29
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- [00:02]
Caitlin Windsor
Hi, I'm Caitlin Windsor, the senior director of media strategy, planning and investment at PepsiCo.
- [00:08]
Chris Grillo
And I'm Chris Carlow, Vice President of Sales at Tubi. And I lead the CPG vertical. And you're listening to the CPG Guys Podcast.
- [00:17]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Hello and welcome to the CPG Guys Podcast. Set at the intersection of commerce and tech, your hosts, Sree Rajagopelan and Peter V. S. Vaughn explore how brands and retailers engage consumers in a digitally driven world. And now, here are the CPG Guys.
- [00:36]
Sree Rajagopalan
Hello and welcome to this episode of the CPG Guys Podcast. And we are live in Manhattan, New York City, at the Doobie TV offices.
- [00:44]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Start spreading the news.
- [00:46]
Sree Rajagopalan
Say it again. You're singing a New York song.
- [00:50]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I am.
- [00:50]
Sree Rajagopalan
That's what happened.
- [00:51]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Remember the Dodgers came from Brooklyn. That's still New York street. My roots, yeah, don't keep. We got three subway stops in Brooklyn named after my family. I'm the real deal. I'm authentic.
- [01:00]
Sree Rajagopalan
Fair, very fair. And of course, what are we doing? Our usual favorite programming. Making podcasts, of course, with our industry's key leaders on very important topics. And I'm just happy to do it live from a fast upcoming, I want to say TV channel, but I guess
- [01:16]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
so much more than that.
- [01:16]
Sree Rajagopalan
Definitely to correct me.
- [01:18]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Yeah.
- [01:18]
Sree Rajagopalan
So that's what we'll do. I'm of course sree, your co host and co founder, CRO of Think Blue Consulting, your trusted partner, your omnichannel development journey. Get in touch with me there at shreenkblueconsulting co. Listen to my older daughter's music at www.rhearaj.com and do follow Laura Raj. My younger daughter is a member of the world's fastest growing global girls group, Cat's Eye. And we're just back from watching Cat's Eye debut at Coachella live, which was, needless to say, mind blowing watching a DJ set from 2am to 6am story for another day weekend filled with music. My two faves that I got to meet and hang out with Becky G. And then my favorite, of course, lots of stories to tell Trent reznor from the Nine Inch Nails who had to wait 50 years of life to meet in person. I'm joined today of course by my co host and co founder, pvsp, who also moonlights as head of industry and client engagement at Flywheel commerce acceleration division of Omnicom. Peter, you got something new. Starting with your daughter tomorrow for the first time. What is it?
- [02:19]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I know I am at her request, I'm taking her for her very first golf lessons. My God, she came to me and said, dad, I want to learn to play golf. I'm like, I almost cry. I did cry a little. But yeah, no, we're really excited about that. But Sri, I'm also excited you and I went to Jackie Robinson last night at Yankee Stadium.
- [02:37]
Sree Rajagopalan
We Both had our 42s on Peter Cosby pretend because 42 is Mariano Rivera,
- [02:42]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
but it's not the real one.
- [02:43]
Sree Rajagopalan
Mariano's a legend, as we know, so we won't compete hall of Famer.
- [02:48]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
So let's just celebrate that which and the Yankees won. And the Yankees were the Yankees win
- [02:53]
Sree Rajagopalan
in the 9th Inn thanks to infield fly out missed catch on first base.
- [02:59]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
All right, enough of our baseball banter.
- [03:01]
Sree Rajagopalan
It's good to be here with you this episode though.
- [03:03]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Yeah.
- [03:03]
Sree Rajagopalan
So make sure you're listening and subscribing to our podcast on your preferred platform. We can get our latest episodes. Go back and consume some of the 580plus episodes we've already published. Now let's welcome our guests. We've got a dynamic duo indeed from one of our favorite brands, N2B TV. So welcome to the CPT guys. First joining us is Chris Grillo who vice President of Sales at Tubi tv, bringing a proven track record of building high performance sales engines and a deep understanding of streaming monetization, content partnerships and audience growth. Chris's hands on leadership has helped Tubi scale its retail operator and tdc AKA Direct to Consumer initiatives. Aligning product strategy with go to market execution in a way that drives sustainable, measurable results. And then from one of our favorite brands in the world alongside Chris is Caitlin Wincer, Senior Director of Media Strategy at none other than PepsiCo. Of course, Peter and I both alums of PepsiCo. Caitlin is a trusted architect of media ecosystems, steering multi market media planning and investment with a sharp eye for roi, brand safety, cross channel efficiency, work powers, ambitious campaigns that balance brand storytelling Data driven optimization ensuring PepsiCo optimizes every media dollar across paid, owned and earned shells. Together this pair will bring a rare blend of direct sales leadership and strategic media stewardship. On this episode we'll unpack how 2BTV's unique distribution and partnerships intersect with brand media strategy. Share lessons on aligning sales incentives with marketing outcomes. Explore Agile media planning can indeed accelerate growth in a rapidly evolving entertainment and consumer landscape. Let's jump into it. Welcome Chris. Welcome Caitlin to the CPG guys.
- [04:50]
Chris Grillo
Thanks for having us.
- [04:52]
Caitlin Windsor
Thank you.
- [04:53]
Sree Rajagopalan
Looking forward to it. So I'm going to jump right in, but before that of course in the digital liner Notes of this episode. We'll include links to your LinkedIn profile, your company's corporate websites for our listeners to access while we go on with our conversation. So let's jump into the question, shall we? Chris, first up, team you up, man. For listeners new to TB, describe Tubi's role in the CTV ecosystem today and how has that evolved last 18 odd months?
- [05:21]
Chris Grillo
Sure. I think we can't talk about the last 12 to 18 months of Tubi's growth without first talking about the last five years or so. So back in 2021 say we had about 40 million monthly active users. Now we can proudly say we have well over 100 million. And the reason for that growth is because we're positioning ourselves as the world's largest free ad supported on demand video service. We have a great offering, tons of content, over 300,000 titles, movies, TV shows, home of classic cartoons, you name it. We also have a fast channel portion of our platform as well, which is only 5%, we're 95% AVOD. We always want to make sure we tout that out in the marketplace. So we have an AVOD first platform and we have a pretty simple business model. There are no subscription fees on tuba. Right. We are a totally free service. We're fully ad supported and we have a great audience profile.
- [06:13]
Sree Rajagopalan
Right.
- [06:13]
Chris Grillo
It's very large, multicultural, primarily cord cutters and cord nevers and who those people are folks who've never had traditional TV in their homes. Right. That's the large makeup of our audience. And in the last 12, 18 months, I'd say some of the key milestones for us have been that we had streamed the super bowl this past year which was huge for us. I think a lot of people were surprised that we had it and we great and we executed it flawlessly. We also have the Thanksgiving Day game. This past year we've expanded original content on our platform with a lot of young adult original titles, sports documentaries, you name it. So we're creating originals here on Tubi. More of an increased focus on creator content and the creator economy. We know that's a huge initiative for us and for brands out there. And lastly, we're preparing now for the World Cup 2026. We're owned by Fox, we have a great partnership with them. We will be able to now provide content around the World cup this summer in a new and exciting way for consumers. So we're excited about that. So just a ton of growth over the last 12 to 18 months and really just like we're free forever, fully ad supported 100 million monthly active. So we're out there, we're doing great things and we're excited for the future.
- [07:21]
Sree Rajagopalan
So for the millions who don't want to pay for a Netflix subscription, is there a future where Pop Star Academy with Cat's Eye will be on Tubi?
- [07:29]
Chris Grillo
Is there something we can bring the content out? We just got to get the right connection. You know, I think that we need someone who can help.
- [07:36]
Sree Rajagopalan
For example, Universal Music Man.
- [07:38]
Chris Grillo
Let's do it. Let's do it.
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Peter V. S. Vaughn
Gillen. Chris, welcome to the podcast. Guess I'll tell you, I'm an avid Tubi user. I've been using it for about three years. For me, I usually end up going to IMDb and eventually I want to look at some historical show. It's on Tubi, it's there, and I love just popping on. Don't have to subscribe, don't have to pay a subscription fee. And it's there. And I did watch the Super Bowl. I'm a cable cutter. I watch everything streaming at home. So thank you.
- [08:05]
Chris Grillo
You're welcome.
- [08:05]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
As a user of your service, I'm a big fan. So, Chris, you obviously, in your role, have an opportunity to speak with a whole lot of CPG advertisers that are thinking about where they're taking their awareness advertising in the face of declines in traditional linear television platforms. We still have a need to create awareness and they start looking at Tubi as a credible alternative. So I'd like to understand what shifts you are seeing in. In how they're thinking about reach, engagement in performance around streaming and connected television. And how do you see Tubi being a facilitator of that transition?
- [08:51]
Chris Grillo
And I think we've seen like a big shift from brands and advertisers saying, how many people did I reach to? What did it actually drive? Right?
- [08:59]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
So getting results of those, that's the big component, right? It's the actual outcomes, getting to the outcomes as opposed to, I've got a big audience, but I can't tell you what happens after.
- [09:10]
Chris Grillo
And Caitlin can attest to this, but she'll say, like, we want incremental reach, right? We're spending this money in the marketplace. How do we get more for our money? And we want to make sure they have higher attention and also measurable real world impact, right? So is it purchases, is the store visits, et cetera, et cetera. So we feel like that's the place where we can really help. And then our value prop is that we do have high attention viewers, right? We have the lowest ad load in the biz, we like to say less than four minutes an hour, which I think is something we can say that comfortably. We are the best in the business in that. And we have improved user experience. Right? User experience on these platforms, I mean, there's so many of them out there is really very, very important. And I think for us, we know that a user experience that's good equals a better experience for a brand. So I think in that regard, we're doing things there that others aren't. And at the end of the day, we had a quote from a recent Gen Z person, I would say, and they said, if you're going to advertise to me, make it worth my time. Right? That's a really important thing that we think about here at Tubi. So I think in general, we're trying to make it available to everyone. We want to have a good experience when they're there. And I think that's really about not only just spending dollars on a platform, but getting something from it.
- [10:19]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Speaking on behalf of all Gen X, I feel the same way as the Genseer does.
- [10:23]
Sree Rajagopalan
I'll speak on behalf of the Gen Alpha for a second. That, you know, you mentioned something right up front, which is you built the platform for a generation that has never really had a big TV or cared about one. How important is that, though? Because as there's more cable shifting happen, cable cut and cord, whatever Peter called that, cable cutting. There's truly a generation that was born digitally that only knows programming through connected tv. So square fit, right? And Ketlan, that's the backdrop of my question. PepsiCo obviously has a broad media investment strategy. You know, y' all are not lacking from a reach and a household penetration perspective across the brands. Where does CTV fit within your overall media mix strategy? And what signals do you actually monitor most closely when evaluating a new CTV partner?
- [11:12]
Caitlin Windsor
Yeah, it's a great question. CTV is definitely an important part of our mix, but probably not for the reasons you might think. It's not about just a replacement for TV behavior. I think we look at it as more of a how are consumers spending their time? And this is an avenue where they're actually spending time and are attentive and receptive to messaging. So if you think about just like how Gen Alpha and many other generations are experiencing, like an abundance of content coming at you from all angles at all time, you're scrolling nonstop, you've got advertisers beating you over the head in different ways all the time. So. So it's like we are looking for these environments where you have attention and you have people that are receptive to advertising. So I think that's where we know that streaming can deliver all of those things. And then when it comes to Tubi in particular, I think what's become really interesting to us is that audience opportunity. So if you think you've got your younger, more diverse audience being able to capture them where they're actually paying attention, that's huge for us. So I think that's how we've been thinking about it on that front. Cause it's been especially challenging to capture that audience opportunity. Obviously incremental reach, kind of table stakes for us as well. But I think we've kind of gone one click beyond that.
- [12:29]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Brilliant. So Chris, my background is market research. Right. And so I read where you recently partnered with the Harris poll to better understand how consumer behavior is shifting in this streaming area. This is very fascinating to me. I'd love for you to share with our audience what were some of the most surprising and important findings that CPG marketers should really pay attention to. To.
- [12:54]
Chris Grillo
Well, I have some stats for you.
- [12:56]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I love numbers. Bring them on, Bring them on.
- [13:00]
Chris Grillo
So we were really excited to point with the Harris poll and we were waiting patiently for the results. And when we got them, we found some really interesting things. One of them, I'll go by kind of category here, but by viewer mindset, 89% of those polled feel most relaxed while streaming, which we just talked about. Streaming is an attentive kind of, you're leaning in, you're relaxed. 80% of those said prefer. They prefer streaming over phone scrolling. I'm a dune scroller. My wife hates it. I'm on the phone all the time. It's like, what are you doing? But when we are watching our favorite show or TV program, I'm off my phone, I'm leaned in, I'm watching and it's 64.
- [13:36]
Sree Rajagopalan
It matters. I'm a doom scroller as well. But one weekend, Coachella alone, I picked up 25k followers. One weekend. Yeah, just with digital content.
- [13:45]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I got two new followers last weekend.
- [13:48]
Chris Grillo
Congrats.
- [13:48]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Well, got about 24 aspirations. Aspirations.
- [13:53]
Chris Grillo
It's true. I think that's. I mean 64% of those, that streaming helps them unwind. You're putting your kids down. That's not easy for me. I have an almost 5 year old. Not easy, Right. You have a long day at work, your commute, you come home, you want to watch your favorite show. Right. You want to stream and you're Unwinding and relaxing. And this was surprising, that streaming is the number two most trusted advertising channel only after a company's own website, which I love.
- [14:18]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
True. Interesting.
- [14:19]
Chris Grillo
And social is number seven. And I'm a former social media sales guy, and I was surprised that I thought that would be much higher.
- [14:26]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
So I hear brand advertisers. If you want to build trust with your audience, maybe social media isn't the place to start. There are. There are better places to think about building trust.
- [14:40]
Chris Grillo
I'm just going off the. I know. That's what I.
- [14:42]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
That's how I'm. I'm just telling you how I'm reading it.
- [14:44]
Sree Rajagopalan
Dude like me who's worked hard last year to build like 350k followers, is worthless or would go to the number 7, enroll.
- [14:51]
Chris Grillo
No, I don't think that. I think that's important. I think everybody, you know, every time you can gain an audience somewhere, it's important. I just think the mindset of where you are.
- [14:59]
Sree Rajagopalan
I'm just messing, right?
- [15:00]
Chris Grillo
I know.
- [15:00]
Caitlin Windsor
I'm trying to roll for all of it.
- [15:02]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Exactly.
- [15:02]
Chris Grillo
There it is. There it is.
- [15:03]
Sree Rajagopalan
One day I'll have a million. They'll come back, but we'll have a ch.
- [15:06]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
All right, what else?
- [15:06]
Chris Grillo
So when it came to brand receptivity, which is word I never knew existed until now, 49% were open to discovering new brands. Wall Street. Okay. 74% like brands that support free content via ads, which I thought was cool.
- [15:20]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
74%, well, it's saving that they're not having to pay the subscription. And they understand, hey, I'm willing to. I'm willing to take. There you go.
- [15:28]
Chris Grillo
And then when it comes to commerce impact, 62% get product inspiration from streaming ads, which I can kind of see where that would work. Right? You see an ad, they like, they're in comfortable mindset. Hey, that could be a brand that I want to work with or purchase. 4 and 5 were more likely to purchase from streaming advertisers than not another interesting one. Okay. And then the key takeaway for us after all these results from the poll was that streaming equals discovery plus action, not just exposure. So it's not just about seeing an ad. It's about action.
- [15:59]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
It's. It's the. That's it. It's the outcome. Ultimately, it's the outcome that gets brands excited about ctv.
- [16:06]
Sree Rajagopalan
The beauty about it is you can go back and replay it and watch the ad again.
- [16:09]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I know that's great, but you gave
- [16:11]
Sree Rajagopalan
away a little bit of a secret sauce of the cpg Guys, we were the first podcast. We started up during COVID and I believe to the day we're successful because we're streaming, and that's our primary mechanism, how we disseminate information. And I think you said 64% of the polled audience said they enjoy. It's a relaxing environment for them. It's an important number. So, Chris, these stats that you just given us, how are they challenging or reshaping traditional assumptions around reach frequency engagement for CPG brands?
- [16:43]
Chris Grillo
There's definitely some changing assumptions out there. I think if you're a dinosaur like me, the old model was frequency and grps. Yep. Drives results. Right. You just put as much advertising out there as possible and you're going to get a result.
- [16:56]
Sree Rajagopalan
Not the different dinosaur. What are we, Brontosaurus Rex?
- [16:58]
Chris Grillo
Well, well, listen, right.
- [17:00]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Stinger, probably we're prehistoric.
- [17:02]
Chris Grillo
The more refined dinosaur die. And the new model is context and mindset matter more than volume. Right. So you have to be strategic in what you're doing and how you're placing your media dollars versus just, you know, mass viewership. Okay. So the key shifts we think are less clutter.
- [17:17]
Sree Rajagopalan
Right.
- [17:17]
Chris Grillo
More meaningful engagement, and then move from interruption into integration into experience. So it's, again, it's about placing your media dollars and your impressions in places that can actually have impact.
- [17:29]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Great, great. All right, so, Caitlin, in your role at PepsiCo, how do these findings align with what you are seeing in your own proprietary and syndicated research around media performance?
- [17:45]
Caitlin Windsor
I mean, I subscribe to a lot of what Chris is saying. I think aligns pretty closely to what we're seeing and where we're, you know, where we think things are going in the past. I think what Chris was alluding to is like, we optimize largely for scale. It was like, how do we get the most people reach to the frequency occasion? But like, how do we get as many people as possible and then how do we get them as efficiently as possible? And that was the playbook for many years across the industry and for a lot of advertisers, probably still is the case. I think we're trying to go a little bit further than that. I think we realize that there's a million different ways to engineer cheap reach. I think that's just not the challenge that we all have today. So the mindset part of this, I think, is really the unlock and one that we're, you know, we think is a lot more important than it used to be when there were fewer ways to connect with people. So streaming is one of those environments where you know everything Chris said. If their people are relaxed, what is the opportunity for the brands to connect with you in that way? We know social has a role to play. We know there's influence to be had there. We know there's a ton of reach in a lot of places. But if we are capturing someone when they are going to be most receptive to receiving a number of different messages like that is going to be lightning in a bottle for us.
- [19:05]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Yep.
- [19:06]
Sree Rajagopalan
So a big takeaway already that shaped in my head on streaming tv listening to both of you is it's no longer an upper funnel reach mechanism, it's an actual full funnel mechanism. So that's the backdrop of what I want to move us next to, which is I would love for you both to preach to the industry, both Chris and you. Caitlin, what are some key implications for how CPG brands should rethink their media mix? Therefore, because now CTV is seen as a full funnel mechanism and what would you guide them on? Investment strategies moving forward.
- [19:43]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
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- [21:10]
Chris Grillo
yeah, I can take the beginning of this one.
- [21:12]
Caitlin Windsor
Go ahead.
- [21:13]
Chris Grillo
I think what we're trying to get at the hear of this conversation is like using streaming as a discovery engine conversion driver, not just like again a mass reach play. Some of the focus areas we think brands need to be working around is have contextual alignment, right? So whether it's around genres or moods or you know, types of content and then high attention. Creative, I think always will work. Right. So have it tailored for streaming. I think a lot of times we think, well, if you have creative and you have it running on linear TV or video, it translates to streaming. I think you can tailor it to streaming, which is important. And then a balance of broad reach because you do have to have the reach, you have to have the broad scale but also surround that with key like cultural moments or tempo moments that your brands are interested in. And then again with that creative approach, just have it to be more platform specific, a little more, you know, not again not repurposed but just more, you know, align with this trading platform. Thank you.
- [22:10]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Yeah, I think this is absolutely fascinating. I want to hear your, your take on this perspective.
- [22:15]
Caitlin Windsor
Yeah, so I think like from a media investment perspective, we're already here. Like we bought into this. We know where we're seeking attention. I think we've probably unlock is probably like we've underutilized the canvas that these opportunities afford us. So if you start to think like we've always looked at video as like the tippity top of the funnel. Right, Right. But now that's no longer the case. If you have these, you know, semi captive consumers, why would we not take that opportunity to, to go deeper with them? Right. Like to use that opportunity to talk about, you know, a new product benefit, to talk about, you know, reinforce any new functions, new news. We might have to tell a more complex story. I just think we might be leaving some of this on the table by, by not kind of pulling through, you know, weightier expectations for this type of consumer experience.
- [23:07]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
And it obviously presents you with an opportunity to connect to the outcomes. And so why not take that opportunity while it's presented to you and serve up and not just to your point, sit at the discovery end of the funnel and say no, no, I can, I can move them much quicker down to the end and actually measure whether that works or not.
- [23:29]
Caitlin Windsor
That's right. And it's, it's going from like yes, hey, remember we exist, remember us to like creating some conviction with consumers and getting them to take action.
- [23:38]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I love that.
- [23:38]
Sree Rajagopalan
Interestingly, Your North America CEO Ram Krishnan made a post on LinkedIn today and he says the most important chapter is often the physical or digital shelf moment. Which one should I buy? And you refer very specifically to storytelling about brands, brand functionality. A new message perhaps is exactly what you said. Kind of resonates with the post he's made today. Do you see a future where CTV brand communication of a new message, a new functional benefit, et cetera? You see yourself ramping up on ctv?
- [24:13]
Caitlin Windsor
I do. I think it's about use cases and about objective setting. And one thing we talk a lot about is role clarity within our media mix. Right. Like, we can't expect everything. Like in a world where there was three TV networks and, you know, a large catalog of magazines, it was a very different sort of consumer experience. But if we're thinking about, like, there are certainly channels and platforms that are going to be more about how do we capture scale. Some are going to be driving specific audience interaction or around a specific growth cohort or even a context that's really important to us. I think CTV is definitely where we see it is very much. And they. How do we use this channel and these platforms to drive more consideration and resonance for the consumer?
- [25:02]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Caitlin. So in talking to your contemporaries who might be listening to this podcast, how would you counsel them on thinking differently about success metrics beyond just reach and awareness? With now, everything we've kind of talked about in the last couple of questions around, there's so much more to ctv. What would be, what would be your guidance?
- [25:26]
Caitlin Windsor
Yeah, I think you just have to take a more specific look. And I think that's one thing we've done over the past probably 18 months on our side. We've done a number of different tear downs. We've gotten really quite rigorous with our objective setting and what our expectations are for the different platforms and placements to deliver on. So, like, if you're setting, you know, if you think about a, you know, a brand or a campaign architecture, how are we, how are we mapping all of these critical pieces of the equation and of the mix to specific audiences, to specific outcomes? So again, it's just, it's become such an interesting time to be in the media industry because we have like, it's like a wealth of different opportunities and there's no one way to do it. So I think being able to really understand what all of the platforms and placements can provide to you and provide from an audience and objective standpoint, I really just. It's a bit of a broad answer, but at the same time it's about refocusing and understanding all that these different placements can deliver.
- [26:26]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Brilliant.
- [26:27]
Sree Rajagopalan
Let me remind our audience that we are speaking today with Kaitlyn Windsor from PepsiCo and Chris Grillo from the hundred million now strong audience of Tubi tv. Caitlin, back at you. How do you balance brand safety, brand lift and performance when Optimizing campaigns on a free ad supported platform like Tubi.
- [26:48]
Caitlin Windsor
I think sometimes we over complicate this one. Brand safety for us is kind of an expectation. You know, you don't have it. Call us back when you figured it out.
- [26:57]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Basically it's baked into the table stakes.
- [27:00]
Caitlin Windsor
That is table stakes at this point. And obviously, you know, Tubi is a brand safe environment. So that's not really even a part of that equation. But in general we look at that as just foundational versus having these all be sort of competing elements. So you know, foundationally you've got your brand safety and then from there we talk about effectiveness. That's like the next step. So you have, you know, are we reaching the right person at the right time with the right message? And then hopefully from there you start to see the true brand impact and the business outcomes follow. So I think again, less about balancing all three of those things and more about building off of each other.
- [27:38]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Brilliant. Chris would love, since you love to quote stats, can you share more? I know you do.
- [27:46]
Sree Rajagopalan
Hints loves.
- [27:47]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
By the way, we do love. They do ask us for show me the proof. Exactly. It's the show me state. We're from Missouri. Right. There we go. Can you share a recent example of where a CPG campaign on Tubi delivered measurable lift around roas? Incrementality, awareness, intent. That really caught the attention of your team?
- [28:10]
Chris Grillo
I can't.
- [28:11]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Yes, please do.
- [28:12]
Chris Grillo
The floor is yours. Without naming the brand, we did do a recent campaign in first quarter with a popular snack brand. We partnered with Inmarket, one of our measurement partners and we saw some results that we thought were intriguing. 9.2% increase in incremental sales lift and a 2.5% higher ROAS versus in market CPG benchmark. So for that one in particular, the client was very happy. We were very happy with it. And the key insights we took from that were that streaming drives real world action store visits, right? We say purchases and that is, I know a big thing for Caitlin and her brands is just they want to make sure they're moving product off shelf. We hear that all the time and it reinforces that four to five users, another stat more likely are to purchase after exposure. Right. So we know that they do have an impact once the viewer sees the ad and hopefully that means action. So that's just one example. We have a lot of other campaigns we're running that we always try to attach measurement to because we want to have those stats to prove out afterwards that it worked. So we're excited to get those back,
- [29:12]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I want to double click down on one thing because you mentioned in market in order for you to be able to deliver these measurements of outcomes. Having a strong partnership in the ad tech ecosystem is a critical element to what Tubi is bringing to advertisers across the board.
- [29:29]
Chris Grillo
With several measurement partners, we like to make sure that the clients and the brands we work with are aligned and hopefully with those campaigns. The success is there. Again, transparency, being able to share those internally and externally obviously is really important. So yeah, it's critical to anything we do.
- [29:45]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Thank you.
- [29:46]
Sree Rajagopalan
Chris, back at you in the CPG space. Surprise. That's what we're talking about today. Cpg. How do you collaborate with advertisers to craft creatives that performance? Ctv, I mean, we'd love to know is a creative format for CTV have a different set of expectations given the 100 million audience than other types of programming in the media mix. And are there formats or storytelling approaches you find very effective?
- [30:15]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
And to add onto that, I think from my perspective, I have to think about. You have to be very aware of what are the devices that people are most often using in streaming TV versus more, you know, social media. People are very much mobile first.
- [30:28]
Chris Grillo
Sure.
- [30:29]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
That's got to play a role in how you think about making recommendations as to the format of the advertising 100
- [30:35]
Chris Grillo
and talking to, you know, brands all the time. And I've worked in social, I've worked in digital linear and now in, you know, streaming. I think that is very important to have the right creative needs to feel native to the viewing experience. Right. So again, we now have things like animated pause ads, which we think are really cool. When you're watching a show and you pause it, it's not just a static still image, it's an animated.
- [30:58]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
So something's happening, but you're not being forced to miss important content. It's keeping your attention.
- [31:05]
Chris Grillo
Yeah. And a great place for a brand to insert a message. Right. I always say if you're a dog food company and you're going to get a snack and your dog sitting there, like mine's always sitting there staring up at me like, where are you going? I'm like, well, I'm gonna bring a snack back to him too. Right. This is a really cool way to, to kind of integrate and to work an ad product into a brand messaging content alignment. Right. So we want to make sure it matches the viewer's mood. If you're watching Terror on Tubi, which is usually horror or thrillers, maybe you have a piece of creative that is exciting and, I don't know, could match the mood of the viewer at the time. And we talk about contextual relevance. 67% of people prefer aligned ads and other staff for you. So they want ads that align to what they're watching or the mood they're in. So I think that's really important. And there's definitely, like, a strategic shift with creative best practices. So they're moving away from, again, repurposed TV spots, and they're kind of having more custom streaming spots and then again developing kind of a streaming first storytelling message with that. So I think that's where you look at streaming and how it's different than other mediums out there. It has to be unique to streaming. I think that's what we would say. And I'm not the creative guy, but our creative team would definitely be, you know, instilling in our. Our partners to. When they're thinking about creative on tv.
- [32:18]
Sree Rajagopalan
You know, the example you gave of the dog really is resonating with me. I have a dog. And you are 100% right. Every time we pause, walk up, go get a snack. What's the first thing she does? She's looking for a snack herself. Great time to run that ad.
- [32:35]
Chris Grillo
I feed my dog PepsiCo products, though, so usually Doritos or.
- [32:39]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I like that. I like that. All right.
- [32:42]
Sree Rajagopalan
My personal favorite's always been lays.
- [32:45]
Chris Grillo
Yeah, 100%.
- [32:46]
Sree Rajagopalan
Peter calls me a dog sometimes.
- [32:48]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I do. I do.
- [32:49]
Sree Rajagopalan
So especially when the Yankees win.
- [32:52]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Doesn't happen that often.
- [32:54]
Sree Rajagopalan
27 championships. Remind him to see.
- [32:57]
Chris Grillo
I want to side with.
- [32:58]
Caitlin Windsor
I'm a Red Sox fan, so I just stay.
- [33:00]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Oh, I like you. Any enemy of my enemy is my friend.
- [33:03]
Sree Rajagopalan
Yeah, they had a run for a bit.
- [33:05]
Chris Grillo
Well, I have another podcast about the rivalry. Can do that.
- [33:08]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I think we'll have to. Yeah, we're going to. We're going to. We'll work on that.
- [33:11]
Chris Grillo
All right, listen, bring it out.
- [33:12]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
So, Kaylin, obviously PepsiCo has invested a tremendous amount in creating content for traditional television. Are there best practices for thinking about repurposing those assets for streaming environments to maximize resonance and efficiency? Or is it about, listen, I need to start from scratch. I need to build all whole new set of content that's more appropriate for streaming. What's kind of like the sweet spot from your perspective?
- [33:44]
Caitlin Windsor
I think Chris was kind of hitting on it a little bit. I think we're trying to move away from this sort of adaptation game where you, like, start out with this perfect 30 that everybody is in love with. And blessed and then figure out how do you quarter turn that, cut that down and make it work in different environments. And we've started to talk about a bit more, about more campaign systems. So in that way you'd have land on your core idea and then sort of build the assets around it so they all sort of have a role to Play. So your 30 still might be, you know, where your full message lives. That's maybe where you land your, your emotional tone. But then you start to have cut downs that can solve for a specific job to be done. Maybe that is talking about a specific product benefit or more relevant to an environment or has the branding up front for a less attentive environment. So I think we, you know, in its best case, it's like a perfect orchestration of a campaign system and then you're not forcing a bunch of assets that are not primed for different platforms in bad consumer experiences basically. So we've really tried to move to more of that type of thinking and planning. Obviously it requires a lot of pre planning, really tight briefs, cross team collaboration. But that's really the, I've got to
- [35:07]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
imagine as you're building those briefs involving Tubi to help refine it to make sure that everybody's aligned is a critical component to delivering those outcomes that you want to be successful.
- [35:17]
Caitlin Windsor
That's right. And they, they do like do a great job of just keeping us up to speed on what is happening. What are, what are consumers calling for? What is a good experience for them so that, you know, we can kind of keep these back pocket as we're, as we're building the right messages.
- [35:31]
Chris Grillo
We don't want to force it either. Right. So you don't want an asset that's not going to work. So creative team will be, hey, this is what we suggest and it's up to you guys to either go with our advisement or not. But usually they're like, you guys know best. And I think again, not having that asset that just doesn't seem like it fits and the viewers know it.
- [35:47]
Sree Rajagopalan
So Caitlin, the last few years post Covid have seen significant volume challenges driven by inflationary pressures. Needless to say, volume growth, growth is a big aha these days. Quarter over quarter. So how do you optimize that media mix where you can protect brand equity? I mean it is PepsiCo, bunch of legendary brands while having that focus for growth quarter over quarter with CTV in particular.
- [36:17]
Caitlin Windsor
Such an important question. I think the biggest shift for us is recognizing consumers are making more deliberate choices not only on how they're spending their time but their money. And then you know, from a media perspective you're starting to see how that's playing out. This like K shaped economic dynamic in the media space too. So you have people who are stacking all of these premium subscriptions. They're building their own like cable esque sort of library of subscriptions, ad avoiders in some respects and that's fine. But then you also have the alts to that where people are trying to get value, right? So that's value in our products but also value exchange for content. So they're willing to see an ad, receive an ad in exchange for content. So I think that's something that we've been paying really close attention to. And I don't think it's like an either or in our investment shift or how we think about how we're going to grow. I think it becomes more of a conversation of do we have the right audience strategy end to end so that we're capturing people in the right places for how consumers are actually, you know, living today really.
- [37:29]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I want to go a little double click down on the whole measurement aspect. I think we've kind of talked about it philosophically and strategically. But I want to ask you around the attribution model or measurement framework that you're relying on for CTV campaigns. I've got to imagine leveraging clean room capabilities are very much. I know we've had a previous episode with PepsiCo where we talked in depth. You were very early stage in terms of using those. How are you using multi touch attribution, experimental design or companion measurement with digital partnered with social. How. How are you really trying to get the most out of understanding the efficacy of CTV?
- [38:18]
Caitlin Windsor
Yeah, at PepsiCo we are evaluating all of our media channels the same way. I think over the last year or so we've kind of focused the agenda to be like let's look at how this delivers on reach, resonance and roi.
- [38:32]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Okay.
- [38:33]
Caitlin Windsor
So all three of those. So specifically for ROI we have an in house marketing mix model.
- [38:38]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Okay.
- [38:39]
Caitlin Windsor
And that's going to illuminate for us any short term sales. But at the same time we're leveraging first and third party brand lift studies. So you know, most recently been working a lot with Kantar to understand, you know, effectiveness in brand building on the brand building side of things. And the balance here is just super critical for us because I think, you know, in certain cases people, you know, focus on squarely on ROI and certain times they're focusing squarely in the other direction and I think what we, we've sort of subscribed to is that the balance is critical because, yes, we need to deliver on the business in the short term, we absolutely need to, but at the same time, the long term, success is going to be largely predicated on whether or not, you know, we have been building strong equity for the brand so that we can, you know, drive demand and pricing power in the category.
- [39:29]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I've got to imagine it will change also based upon where you are in the life cycle of the brand. Like when you're launching a. A new brand, the ROI is not a critical consideration. You're about creating awareness and driving trial. If you sit there and try and micromanage the profitability and the ROI on that, you're not going to have a successful brand.
- [39:50]
Caitlin Windsor
We can't have too blunt of a framework for this, and I think that's why creating some room for balance in this also allows us to be pretty adaptive to the future of how we're building our portfolio of brands.
- [40:02]
Sree Rajagopalan
Okay, perfect segue for my next question. You kind of answered it right there. You can't be too blunt about this partnership with ctv, but I love both your perspectives. Chris, yours first, and then you. Caitlin. What therefore constitute. What's the building blocks or the makeup of a successful CPG CTV partnership look like from each of your eyes? Chris, maybe you can go first.
- [40:26]
Chris Grillo
Sure. Well, I will say, starting out, to answer that question. I've known Caitlin for over 10 years. Worked with PepsiCo since, I don't know, mid 2015 ish or so. So I know a lot about what they're looking for in a partnership that's successful. And we've had, you know, years of that, thankfully. But transparency, I think is key. Like there's a question about something, you have an answer they may not love. You have to be honest about it and talk about it and figure out, you know, how you can pivot to make things work. And when things aren't working, you get them to get them to work when they're, when they are working, when I keep them working. Right. So I think for us, it's strong collaboration across the board, whether it be the media team, the brand teams, the agency. That's the approach we always want to take. Test and learn mindset. So we always like to get to them and say, hey, we have something new, we want you to try it out. Sometimes they're, they're, they're games, sometimes they're not. But again, we want to make sure that we can, you know, bring them the Opportunities that are going to, we believe, work for them and then obviously the, you know, ability to optimize based on performance. So we want to say again, pivot to things that are working well, pivot away from things that aren't working well, and we have to be the source for that knowledge for them. And then obviously, highlighting successes and making sure we're, you know, transparent about things that don't succeed. But I think the main thing is, you know, nobody loves a public facing case study more than I do. But when we have successes and we want to showcase those, it's important for us to make sure they know what's working right for, whether it be for one brand or multiple brands. So I think that's a big part of it. Just making sure we can build these stories to share with them, to make sure that they're utilizing their dollars in the right way and just, again, ongoing collaboration, just making sure that we're always in front of them, giving them the latest and the greatest and making sure that we have any questions that they have, we answer timely and have solutions for them as we move forward.
- [42:13]
Caitlin Windsor
I think, Chris, I mean, obviously you nailed it. I think transparency candor key. Let's just have honest conversations about what we need to accomplish. And one thing we've always said is any of our big partners, we just expect them to have an understanding of our business and be able to advocate for us within the walls of their own company. So you understand what we're trying to solve for help help us figure that out and bring us more than just inventory. Right? Like bring us opportunities, take our feedback and building things. We'll take your feedback and how to better connect with consumers. So just really kind of just leaning on the strengths of, you know, what we bring to the relationship, I think just helps move everything out of being transactional and more of how are we going to drive both sides of this business?
- [42:58]
Chris Grillo
Knowing their business is a huge part of it. Right. Knowing what their initiatives are, what they need when dealing network with us, and how campaigns need to be, you know, the kind of results they need. So that's always like super important for us to make sure we're aware of what they, their challenges are and whatnot.
- [43:13]
Sree Rajagopalan
You know, paparazzi is a digital creator. I told you 350k at this point, we can't not talk about the importance of digital creators on the platform. Are y' all partners with digital creators? How are you leveraging partnering with digital creators on the platform?
- [43:29]
Chris Grillo
Yeah, that's a huge initiative for Tubi. So we know that, like I said, I think I mentioned earlier, creators and creator economy is a huge part of what we're doing here at Tubi. I think we have done a really good job of bridging the gap between creators and brands that work together. We have the creator verse on Tubi, which is a portion of our platform that is dedicated to creators. We're working hand in hand with creators. We have a team here that's now working with a brand and they say, hey, do you have a creator you're working with or have a partnership with? Yes, we do. How can we connect them to our team to create original content from those creators? So it's really a place where we're looking to invest heavily. Not only from, you know, a monetary standpoint, with investment just throughout the company as far as content goes, but also investing with our partners to make sure we can, you know, bring them what they need. Because we know that that's such a really relevant and important part of the ecosystem right now. So I think for us it's probably one of the top two or three things that we're investing in moving forward. And I think a lot more is to come in the next. Definitely leading it to 26, 27. So stay tuned for that. I think you'll see a lot more things that are coming out.
- [44:39]
Sree Rajagopalan
It's great to hear you have a whole section of the platform dedicated to creators. Let me toss it over to Peter to close it out with the last question for you.
- [44:46]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
I'm going to close out this conversation with you by being forward looking, would like to understand. We'll start with you, Caitlin. Emerging trends or capabilities around connected TV and streaming that will reshape how CPGs plan and buy media over the next couple of years.
- [45:02]
Caitlin Windsor
One thing I'm just very curious to see how it happens is how are, you know, how are the, how is Tubi going to, you know, maintain these audiences? You capture them. So what's the plan for that? Like, I think there's, yes, there are capabilities that you can bring, but like, how do you know, what does the next slate of compelling content look like? What are, how are you making the ad placements and the ad experience still a good experience for consumers? So again, I think, you know, with the type of churn that people see in the industry, I think I have a lot of eyes out to see, you know, how a lot of the platforms manage for that. And then same goes for commerce. Obviously, anything that's going to help shorten the path from initial interest to action, you Know, I'm, I'm all ears for, but that's got to feel a bit natural. It's got to make sense, not feel super forced. So I think there's still, you know, room to build that capability, you know, industry wide. And then of course, you know, for
- [45:57]
Chris Grillo
TUI in particular, yeah, I think I can touch on a couple of those. But for me, increased addressability. Right. Being able to reach those audiences and having a more precise audience targeting. Right. Like being able to target the consumers you want to hit at scale.
- [46:13]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
Identity resolution's gotta be a big part of that too.
- [46:16]
Chris Grillo
100%. And then as far as commerce integration goes, you know, RMNs, we talk about them all the time. They're here to stay. It's, it's, you know, you, you can't avoid having to have those conversations with your brands and partners about how you're utilizing those live shopping experiences. Right. Like, that's another thing that we see all the time. It's innovation there and how that's going to change in the next two to three to five years. I can't imagine how much more precise they can be as far as timing and when those ads are being served. And then ad innovation. I think we've created 10 plus ad formats in the last year, year and a half. Very, you know, I think we believe, I would say we're in the forefront of that when it comes to the CTV space. So more of those coming along and then we can't talk about, you know, the next two to three years without AI and how that's going to be a huge part of what we do and how it's involved in all the enhancements we have and new ways to engage with ads and consumers. But I think just again, continued innovation and expansion and that can come in a host of ways. But I think for us at Tubi, we are very much in tune with our viewers and users and what they want and how they want to be treated when they're inside the Tubi ecosystem. So I think we're excited to kind of create and innovate and lead the charge there. So, lots to come. But again, without having a crystal ball, I think we'll be in a good position moving forward.
- [47:38]
Sree Rajagopalan
Lot of excitement on what AI holds for the industry in general. Your CPG guys, there's not one episode that passes by where someone isn't asking us a question on VR. Hopefully we'll do an episode fully dedicated to AI, because that's going to change advertising forever. Not just the measurement portion, which is already a gift which is a given, but the creative portion. Lots of conversation today on positives, negatives of going AI based creative. So hopefully we can do another episode just dedicated to that, especially on a CTV platform. But let me remind our listeners, you can find all of our content by simply going to a web browser and typing cbguys.com as the URL. That easy. If you or someone you know has something to contribute on this ongoing discussion on the CPG guys, please drop us a line@contactpguys.com to our audience. Thank you for the clicks, likes, comments, DMs, meeting us at trade shows, coming to our events, recording episodes with us and to all of our sponsors. We're always grateful for you. Show doesn't exist without all of you. You work with us all year and we're grateful to have you as our audience and partners. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Peter, Fun as always. Especially these live ones are a lot more fun. What's your big takeaway from today?
- [48:47]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
For me it's just that streaming TV presents so much more meaning to brand advertisers than what traditional linear television had in terms of actually getting to the outcomes. And it's gone beyond just being an upper funnel awareness tool to being a full funnel experience that you can actually take your customer, your the audience on a journey and test out new ways that actually move them towards conversion and you can see what steps it takes to actually get them there. That it requires any brand advertiser to have a whole fresh look on how streaming can actually play a very critical, important role in the overall media mix strategy.
- [49:29]
Sree Rajagopalan
I would agree Peter. I think the single biggest takeaway people should have is think of CTV as a full funnel platform. Typically is that large reach upper funnel only. And then I think Caitlin might have said it. Also, when forming a partnership with your CTV partner, don't think of it as a blunt force following the scripted format or a playbook. That's the only way to go. Be flexible and take advantage of the full funnel ecosystem. That I think is a huge takeaway that should resonate with our audience. So let me thank Chris and Caitlin. Thank you today for joining us live in Manhattan at the Tubi TV office for this recording. It's a pleasure to have you both.
- [50:08]
Caitlin Windsor
Thank you for having us.
- [50:11]
Sree Rajagopalan
That's a wrap of this episode of the CPG guys.
- [50:27]
Peter V. S. Vaughn
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