← The CPG Guys
The CPG Guys
Live from Cannes Lions 2025 with E.L.F. Beauty's Laurie Lam & Day One Agency's Josh Rosenberg
00:43:44
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- [00:01]
Shree Rajagopalan
If you're planning on attending grocery shop this fall, make sure to arrive in Las Vegas mid afternoon on Sunday, September 28th. That way you'll be able to attend the Big Grocery Shop Kickoff Party being hosted by the CPG Guys in partnership with Rethink Retail. The party runs Sunday, September 28th from 6:30 to 8:30pm Our kickoff party is where all the industry luminaries customarily gather to celebrate the beginning of this annual event. In the coming weeks, we'll provide more details on how to register and how to sponsor. In the meantime, make sure your travel plans ensure your arrival in Las Vegas. To join us for the Kickoff Party.
- [00:42]
Josh Rosenberg
I'm Josh Rosenberg, Co Founder and CEO of Day One Agency and I'm joined by Lori Lam, Chief Brand Officer at Elf Beauty and you're listening to the CPG Guys Podcast.
- [00:56]
Shree Rajagopalan
Welcome to the CPG Guys Podcast. Your host, Shree Rajagopalan and Peter V. S Vaughn explore how brands and retailers engage consumers in an increasingly digitally driven world. And now, here are the CPG Guys.
- [01:16]
Peter V. S Vaughn
Hello and welcome to the CPG Guys Podcast live from the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity straight from Cannes, France. I'm of course sri, your co host and joining me today is the other co host, Peter Vs Bond. When not on the CPG Guys, I'm also CRO and co founder of Think Blue Consulting, a management advisory firm focused on omnichannel brands and retail transformation. Please do listen to my older daughter's music@www.riaraj.com. that's R H E R A J. My younger daughter Lara Raj is a member of the fast growing global girl group Catseye. The new hit Gabriella is out on all channels. We recently hit episode 500 with Amazon VP of ADS Dana Elton, released on June 18th. Please do check it out on all podcasting platforms. We appreciate you leaving us a review and rating on the Apple Podcast platform. It informs us how we're doing and if you're having the right conversations on this podcast. The CPG Guys were here all week and recorded several episodes with industry luminaries from CMOs to brand and retail media leadership. Enjoy this episode. And now on to our guests Today, let's welcome Josh Rosenberg, Co Founder and CEO Day One Agency and Lori Lam, Chief Brand Officer at Elf Beauty. You both represent one of the boldest brand agency collaborations in modern beauty. One that's rewriting the rules kind of culture. First marketing, earned led storytelling. I'll repeat that again. Earned led storytelling. One that I can't wait to get into more and Authenticity. At scale, those two words, earned and authenticity are a big deal in the industry. So, Josh and Loy, thank you for joining us at Cannes Live. Welcome to the cpg, guys.
- [02:51]
Josh Rosenberg
Thanks for having us. We're excited to be here on the beautiful Riviera.
- [02:55]
Lori Lam
Yeah. Thank you for inviting us. I'm so happy to be here with you.
- [02:58]
Josh Rosenberg
Likewise.
- [02:59]
Peter V. S Vaughn
Josh and Laurie will, of course, include your LinkedIn profiles, day one, and ELF's brand websites and LinkedIn pages for our listeners to access in the digital liner notes of this episode on the go as they listen to the show. So let's get started and I'll ask both of you this one, and this is a very important one for the industry. Peter and I come with a deep commercial background. I come from the selling side, some of the largest brands in the world. Peter comes from the retail side. We've always felt a brand and an agency must work together based on trust, that the agency can indeed build equity for the brand. And if you flip that to the other side of the fence, the agency must have faith that the CBOs, the marketing VPs, the brand leadership, when they bring ideas to you, it's not just a joke. There are all kinds of pressures. Good to hear that. So let me ask you both that question. Maybe we'll kick it off with you. Josh, what's the secret sauce behind the brand agency trust between you both?
- [03:56]
Josh Rosenberg
I think it is the trust and the transparency. And, you know, at day one, we've been in business for about 11 years now, and we don't have a lot of clients, but we have a certain few clients where we really strongly believe in investing as much in our clients and our partnerships as they invest in us. And I feel like Lori and the ELF team, since literally day one, have done just that. And we've iterated and evolved our partnership with each media landscape, iteration and change. And we also love to learn from our clients. And I'll let Lori talk a bit more about this as well. But at elf, they do something called high performance teamwork and their feedback loop. And that's something that we as agency partners also are able to take advantage of. And I think that keeps us all. It gives us the space to have the authentic and honest conversation so that we can continue to push the work.
- [04:50]
Lori Lam
Yeah, I'm just going to piggyback off of high performance teamwork because I think many companies and many brands function on high performance teamwork. And you definitely hear that phrase being used readily. I think you were surprised at how much we live the truth of it so high performance, teamwork is these three principles of mutual accountability, passionate relationships, and of course, healthy conflict, which I think is one that normally gets taken out because people avoid conflict. They don't want to talk about the things that make people uncomfortable, and we actually dive right into it. And HBT is something that is actioned, and that's what took you by surprise. It's actioned. Right. When you see a behavior, a positive one or a negative one or one that you think that can just use a little bit of, you know, coaching, and you take it and you model that and you give someone the feedback or you tell them where, you know, I think you can be accountable for this piece and give people empowerment, ownership, and it's. It's a very strong piece. And I am so proud because I know that you just modeled this actually.
- [05:44]
Josh Rosenberg
For our whole agency.
- [05:45]
Lori Lam
Yeah.
- [05:46]
Josh Rosenberg
Yeah. So we've learned a lot, and I think it makes us better as partners, but it also gives us the forum to be able to. To address both the good and the bad, but also to keep us honest with each other as both of our teams are frankly growing and as the work is changing. And, you know, for elf, they do everything so quickly. They move at ELF speed, and we also move at ELF speed and really always have. But, you know, you need those times to take a step back and have those honest conversations and top to top meetings in order to continue to move so fast.
- [06:17]
Lori Lam
The trust culture is what allows us to move fast. It allows us to get the precision of what it is to get better work together.
- [06:26]
Shree Rajagopalan
Much like elf, the CPG guys talk about moving at CPG guys speed. Fortunately, we have no reference point for that, so it can mean anything. We get away with it. Josh and Lori, welcome to the podcast. We're really glad to have you, man.
- [06:40]
Peter V. S Vaughn
It's good to have been one of the first podcasts in the industry.
- [06:42]
Shree Rajagopalan
That is true. That is true.
- [06:44]
Lori Lam
I will give you roses for that.
- [06:45]
Shree Rajagopalan
Thank you. 500 episodes tomorrow.
- [06:47]
Peter V. S Vaughn
Day after tomorrow, Wednesday.
- [06:49]
Shree Rajagopalan
Wednesday. 500th episode.
- [06:50]
Lori Lam
Pioneering something is scary and you gu went for it.
- [06:53]
Josh Rosenberg
So wait, are we 4.99?
- [06:54]
Shree Rajagopalan
You're new. You're like five something. We're a little bit further down.
- [06:58]
Lori Lam
Five of us pay that lotto number.
- [07:01]
Josh Rosenberg
Yeah, exactly.
- [07:02]
Shree Rajagopalan
Shree and I had the pleasure of heading down to the Consumer Analyst Group in New York conference this year, where we saw your CEO speak. And the picture he painted about campaigns that push cultural boundaries was fascinating to us. I mean, the collabs that you've done, the kind of work it's just been remarkable. So, Laurie, I guess my question to you is how do you stay aligned on risk taking when you're always kind of pushing those boundaries? What is too much? How do you make sure you're getting people to where they need to be without driving them away from your brand equity?
- [07:39]
Lori Lam
Yeah. Oh, I love that question. I think it's first important to recognize how we do it and why we do it this way. We are rooted in disruption. And that's probably what you heard Turing. I mean, our CEO speak about a lot of disruption rooted in disruption. And why are we rooted in disruption? Disruption and actually goes back to our origin story. And so many people, you took the time to actually understand our origin story, to get us to understand why we operate the way we do. But it started from a place of our father and son duo founder 20 years ago, who started the company by. They had a dream which was to democratize access to beauty, and they did that by selling premium cosmetics over the Internet for a dollar in 2004.
- [08:16]
Shree Rajagopalan
Great, great message.
- [08:18]
Lori Lam
That is the catalyst, the foundation. I would say it's the origin story of why our rooted in disruption. So when he talks about these amazing campaigns and risk taking and being bold, it doesn't just start overnight. It doesn't just start from a meeting that we have together. It is rooted in every single person who wears ELF on their sleeve, their chest, whatever it is that you, however you wear, your pride. But it's rooted in that. So I don't think there's any necessary confines in terms of what's too risky for us. I think the goal for us is to always do work that is going to disrupt norms, shape culture and connect communities and do it in a way that we don't look back too often. We're always looking forward. How can we create more positive impact? How can we rally our community so they really understand what is it that we care about and how do we stand behind our name? So elf, for those who don't know, it's eyes, lip, face. And we take that very responsibility. We take it as the responsibility because we are for the every eye, lip and face. So that means that so much of our work needs to be able to resonate with our community, but also to mirror what they care about, what matters to them. And that work comes through whether it's our purpose work, whether it's our speed to market campaigns, our incredible collaborations that get our community excited to the point where they will schedule it on their calendars or they will. And I don't Advocate for this, but they will miss class to make sure they make our collapse when they drop. I do not advocate that.
- [09:46]
Shree Rajagopalan
We asked some of our listeners to skip board meetings to hear our podcast. We're a.
- [09:52]
Peter V. S Vaughn
You know, they're probably doing it on the side anyway.
- [09:54]
Josh Rosenberg
I know they probably.
- [09:55]
Lori Lam
You don't need the disclaimer.
- [09:56]
Shree Rajagopalan
They've got the earbud in while they're.
- [09:58]
Peter V. S Vaughn
The FCC forces us to have a disclaimer, we don't have a choice.
- [10:01]
Lori Lam
Oh, right. There you go.
- [10:03]
Peter V. S Vaughn
Anyway, Lori, so you mentioned community. So I want to hit up two things that are community and not so much community. The super bowl, great example. Communities. Parties, of course. The big event itself.
- [10:15]
Lori Lam
Yeah.
- [10:16]
Peter V. S Vaughn
And then TikTok. You guys do a lot on TikTok. CPG guys here deeply believe that the creator moment at TikTok, especially in community, communities is everything go forward.
- [10:25]
Lori Lam
Yeah.
- [10:26]
Peter V. S Vaughn
So you guys have naturally, therefore become a magnet for cultural moments. So take a minute to tell us all of these are also. TikTok is largely trend based. How do you stay relevant as a large scale brand now, from a brand that started at $4 in 2004 selling on the Internet, how do you stay relevant without changing trends?
- [10:48]
Lori Lam
You asked like seven questions in that.
- [10:50]
Shree Rajagopalan
That's how he does it. He sneaks them in. He sneaks them in.
- [10:53]
Peter V. S Vaughn
This is, this is my curse of.
- [10:54]
Shree Rajagopalan
Having comfort any way you want.
- [10:56]
Lori Lam
First, I'll talk about the super bowl because I think it's important as to why Elf went into the Super Bowl. That's an important pause there. So when we went into the super bowl, we were watching, you know, I don't know how many of you know, and if you're a sports fan, however you do it, or you're just there for the tailgate, but 50% of the viewers are actually women. Yeah, but when you look at the commercials, guys, I mean, they are trying to sell you on insurance cars. They are trying to sell you on cars. And it's not like big trucks. Big, big trucks. How about the drive?
- [11:23]
Peter V. S Vaughn
You love the pharma stuff.
- [11:24]
Lori Lam
The pharma stuff is great, right?
- [11:25]
Peter V. S Vaughn
With all I see Josh laughing. I got you love the pharma anyway.
- [11:30]
Lori Lam
But, you know, it's, it's that kind of ad. But you're 50% of your viewers. So what. What are you actually. How are you actually talking to me? Right. And so I think it was really important for us to go out there and realize that there's 50% of the population that is watching the super bowl that is not being spoken to or not being engaged, for that matter. So Elf actually went in with a bang. And we went in. That was our first commercial, our super bowl commercial with Jennifer Coolidge, where we. We wanted to really show the stickiness of our product. So it is our number one primer. I hope your viewers are now going to go Google this commercial in case they did not see it. But we really wanted to mirror the stickiness of our primer, which helps you adhere and grip your makeup. Especially at a day like this, when you're out of Cannes, you really need it. And we wanted to take the stickiest star. She was just coming off of White Lotus, and we wanted to take the stickiest sporting event. And we took that and the three of them and just put, you know, put it in this magic pot, but also stirred it together, and it created a catalyst and a constellation of something that was going to put it out there for our community again. We did that to delight our community with something that they told us was the stickiest product on earth. So that was the catalyst for that. These campaigns that have gone from there, from that super bowl commercial with Jennifer Coolidge to our next the following year, to our super bowl commercial that we went in with more national reach, and then even to a Super bowl commercial this year, where we intentionally went in to democratize access to our community. We went in with a Super bowl not through the regular pathway. We actually democratized access to the game by working with. To be. By working with partners, by creating our. Actually our own, if you will say, longest live party that we've ever done before, which is on the TikTok, which are Super Bowl, TikTok, Twitch, all the platforms, you name it. We were there for our community, to bring the game to them in real time with the fandom, with talking about, what do you do to prepare for a game, all the things that our community really cares about. So I'll tackle that and share with you. The super bowl was really, I would feel, staying at the heart of culture with a moment where, you know that everyone is really actively engaged.
- [13:29]
Shree Rajagopalan
So one time when we still, as a global community, come together and have a common standpoint, and why, what a huge opportunity.
- [13:39]
Lori Lam
The fandom in itself is something that unites our community as well. So that was something we tapped into in a really big way. But that's one aspect and one facet of how we stay connected to culture and how to stay culturally relevant is making sure that you're there for your community in those moments that matter.
- [13:55]
Shree Rajagopalan
Well, Sri and I watched the Super bowl not for the football game, because our giants were mathematically eliminated. They were mathematically eliminated after the first week of the season. So we watched it for the commercials, and we did a podcast. We did a podcast episode that evening.
- [14:10]
Peter V. S Vaughn
33.
- [14:11]
Shree Rajagopalan
33. Where we evaluate and we called out the ELF commercial as. As being highly culturally relevant to the audience. So kudos to you.
- [14:20]
Lori Lam
Thank you.
- [14:20]
Josh Rosenberg
I think also just really to build on that, too, because I think that's, like, obviously a monoculture moment. But if you think even just about the recent, you know, TikTok conversation that we were all listening to, just even around the lip gloss and the Halo Glow filter and how quickly we were all able to respond to that, that's a good example of that was really a trend, responding to the community and actually making. Working at L speed to actually operationalize it and actually get an empty bottle, which is nearly impossible, and then get it out on the shelves or as a giveaway package in less than a week.
- [14:54]
Lori Lam
I believe part of the trend actually was watching the girlies find their ways to clean the Halo Glow bottle.
- [15:00]
Shree Rajagopalan
Wow.
- [15:00]
Lori Lam
So they cleaned our. And the reason this bottle is so unique is because it has a really beautiful wand. And so the girlies would clean it out and then painstakingly take all the glosses, different glosses. And that most. Most of them were taking a lot of Elf lip balms and melting lip balms and squeezing it in to make their custom shade. And to your point, we were, like, seeing it how they were struggling to clean that bottle out. Right. And even though that was part of the entertainment factor on TikTok, clearly it became something where we were like, let's make it easier for them. So we created that Halo gloss Do it yourself kit, and we. I think that took a week's time for us to get that out there, and it sold out in less than 19 hours.
- [15:37]
Shree Rajagopalan
So, Lori, at the CPT guys, we like to get behind the scenes, kind of open up the hood and check out the Hemi. Right. So we want to know from you, what's the decision process like behind a bold move to launch a music video or showing up in an unexpected platform like Twitch?
- [15:58]
Josh Rosenberg
How does that come.
- [15:59]
Shree Rajagopalan
How does that all come to life?
- [16:01]
Lori Lam
I'll talk about Twitch a little bit, because Twitch is a very unique platform. At the time that elf went on Twitch, there was about 140 million global users. I think now the number is closer to probably 250. But when we went onto Twitch, we were the first brand to go on there. And while it's a Nice bragging, right? To say we're the first one to pioneer. I think it's more important why we went on there, which was to make sure that we were there with our community, where they are and to be authentically with the community having conversations.
- [16:28]
Shree Rajagopalan
That's kind of like the super bowl decision you were addressing. There's an unaddressed audience there completely. And you saw that on Twitch.
- [16:35]
Lori Lam
Yeah. And our team definitely saw that. And our CMO charged us forward with going there. And even the talk about disruption, just to bring back another thread, the disruption of it is we didn't go in with any other name like Elf Cosmetics or we went in with Elf. Yeah. Which for you, for those who don't know, Elf is actually a bomb, if you will. It's another way of doing like an F bomb, but without cursing.
- [16:59]
Josh Rosenberg
I'll let Elf language.
- [17:02]
Shree Rajagopalan
Oh my goodness.
- [17:04]
Peter V. S Vaughn
We'd love to know more words. Yes.
- [17:06]
Lori Lam
You might have to get my CMO on this.
- [17:08]
Josh Rosenberg
Yes. Corey has them all. She's created the vernac.
- [17:10]
Lori Lam
The whole vocabulary behind it.
- [17:12]
Shree Rajagopalan
Sri. Do we have any family members who could probably bring us up to speed on I. Wonderful references.
- [17:17]
Peter V. S Vaughn
I. I wonder.
- [17:18]
Shree Rajagopalan
I wonder.
- [17:18]
Peter V. S Vaughn
We'll make sure to ask.
- [17:19]
Lori Lam
There's a ton of Elfisms like why the Elf not. I love this saying it right without getting censored, especially on your CPG guys podcast.
- [17:27]
Shree Rajagopalan
We run a clean podcast. We don't even check off that we're we. There's explicit content here. We're not that we're good family fun here.
- [17:34]
Lori Lam
Well, good to go back to your question on the decision making. What does it look like? It means rapid speed decision making. It means if we have the why, the who are we going to talk to? And if our community is on there, it really is real time decision making that happens in a room. And you don't make that committee really large. You just keep a small group. And we have ourselves on multiple chat streams that in the chat will say here's an idea. Like the great example is Oliver in Phoenix who sailed across the Pacific Ocean. And why we got behind him was because he is a symbol for democratizing access, democratizing access to dreams. And Oliver had a dream when he got on that sailboat from Oregon all the way to Hawaii. And Elf got behind it to drop ship, pack snacks to him. Snacks and sunblocks and cat snacks and whatever you have. You. But that decision and you know, we're all watching him on social media and gripped and we're all, you know, a little bit cautious, like is he gonna be okay? Did he? You know, we tune in to watch him and we knew there was something there. And our community was also tuning in to see how Oliver and Phoenix were doing. And because ELF cares. And it was like every eye look and face. And by the way, we're double cruelty security certified. We were like, we've gotta make sure that cat's okay. So we dropped the care package. But that took us five days. Five days from the time that we're on a group chat saying, this is just wild. We need to send them something.
- [18:49]
Shree Rajagopalan
So how do we make this so the focus, how do we make it happen? Not what are the reasons we can't.
- [18:54]
Lori Lam
And Patrick o', Keefe, our head of imc, he found a non profit who works with emerging aviators, young aviators that are skillful, obviously. And they tracked down his sailboat and dropped a package to him. And that happened in five days of record time.
- [19:11]
Shree Rajagopalan
So sri, it sounds like they're having an elfin good time.
- [19:14]
Lori Lam
We are having an elf.
- [19:14]
Josh Rosenberg
And that is elf speed.
- [19:16]
Shree Rajagopalan
That's elf speed.
- [19:16]
Peter V. S Vaughn
I don't know about them, but we're having an elfin good time.
- [19:18]
Shree Rajagopalan
We're having a good elfin good. Chain Drug Review's focus is on reaching the key decision makers across all retail channels, delivering comprehensive coverage of the latest shopping trends and in depth category analysis on health, beauty, over the counter products and wellness. Whether it's the latest trends, emerging technologies, or strategies for adapting to new consumer behaviors, mass market retailers deliver the critical information retailers need to navigate this dynamic environment. To subscribe to the newsletters of CDR and mmr, simply follow the hyperlinks in the digital liner notes of this episode. Chain Drug review and Mass market retailers are published by Retail Media. Ike you time today.
- [20:07]
Lori Lam
Do you have a great time with us?
- [20:08]
Josh Rosenberg
Always.
- [20:09]
Peter V. S Vaughn
All right, so, Josh, now that you do have a great time with them, I want to come back to this very same question we asked Lori. And I want to ask you as a trusted advisor. You open this podcast by saying one of the most important things is trust.
- [20:21]
Josh Rosenberg
Yes.
- [20:22]
Peter V. S Vaughn
And transparency. So for you, what is the decision process behind a bold move like launching a music video or showing up in unexpected places like Twitch? Like, how do you advise Lori and the Elf brand on navigating different advertising channels?
- [20:36]
Josh Rosenberg
I think honestly, it goes right back to listening and to the community, because I think you can get a pulse on what the community and what the conversation is saying and how to best show up. And I think those are our biggest advocates and also our biggest litmus. Test. I think even just thinking, you know, even most recently we collaborated on with Katherine Legg, who ELF sponsored in the Indy 500 last year and then in NASCAR this year. And again, that's another first for Elf and first for the category where there was no beauty sponsor of the Indy 500 until LZ came along. And it was just amazing. Like our teams that were on the ground there, the comments they were getting from the community, again, how, you know, whether that was, you know, a father who was saying, oh my God, my daughter loves this product, or even the daughter who is coming up and was so excited to see that Catherine was supported and to see how ELF showed up. So I think really it is going to the community and really listening.
- [21:36]
Peter V. S Vaughn
So I'm very curious to learn. When you chose to do the Indy 500, did you find that a large part of the community does use ELF products? You gave the example of the dad. Was that how it played itself out?
- [21:47]
Lori Lam
We actually found that a lot of people. Well, so the reality today is that we're actually in one of three houses, households that actually have bought Elf, which is an incredible journey if you think about the fact. Thank you. The fact that this is a 20 year old brand. And while 20 year might seem really long to some of the startup brands, like when you compare it to the strategic brands that are actually the top five brands in mass media, they, they have on average 70 years on us. So actually it makes ELF very young, like a 20 year old. You know, that's, that's where the bold disruption, the renegade spirit, the, the speed comes in. But yeah, doing something like that was really just again, the why behind it was important. Right? Why? Because we realized that Katherine Legg was actually the 9th female driver in Indy 500 at the time their 108 year history, she was the 9th female driver.
- [22:36]
Shree Rajagopalan
Wow.
- [22:36]
Lori Lam
And so that is an incredible thing to think about, how you can democratize access to dreams and also put her on a platform that would inspire other young ladies and young drivers to get in the race and to continue and to, to never give up. And that pursuit of it really does reflect who we stand as a brand with positivity, inclusivity and accessibility. We're rooted in that.
- [22:57]
Peter V. S Vaughn
And Josh, so I want to ask you, that very word that she said, disruptor. Everything is disrupted in real time these days, which means you have to know your consumer real time. You know, how trends are shaping, but as well as what they're talking about, what they like, what they dislike, where they want to go in entire new Subcategories shape up just because of a trend in TikTok, and they become sticky over the course of time. So how are you listening to that ELF consumer in real time to advise Lori and the rest of the ELF team? And how do those insights shape content media product decisions?
- [23:29]
Josh Rosenberg
I think intently and intensely. We're all listening honestly, and I think it's a combination of our team and Lori's consumer insights team, honestly. And it is one shared brain in many cases. And, you know, we're thinking about what is the consumer saying, what are the conversations they're in? And it's consumer today is so multidimensional, to your point, and is in all these different niche communities. And, you know, we talked about the super bowl as being monoculture, but the day in, day out is not the monoculture. It's, oh, ELF sees me. Elf gets me in this conversation. And that conversation relative to, you know, anything from, you know, any of the different conversations that ELF is in on a daily basis. So while it does, it can seem or sound like a lot, it really is going to where those interest groups are and figuring out the relevant way that only ELF can show up. Because even to Lori's point, you know, there are so many other brands that can jump on any trend. And I think having that discerning eye and ear for what is something that is uniquely Elf, I think is part of the secret sauce. And you guys really know it when you see it.
- [24:35]
Lori Lam
Yeah.
- [24:36]
Shree Rajagopalan
You know, Shree, I love the parallels. One in three households has an Elf product, and the CPG guys have three households in our listening audience.
- [24:44]
Peter V. S Vaughn
There we go.
- [24:45]
Shree Rajagopalan
That is big. This is good. All right, so, Laurie, my next question is about trends. Back to this topic. What's the difference between being a participant, kind of riding a trend, if it's really taking off, versus being a trendsetter? And how do you draw the line? Because we heard a lot of your CEO talk academy about trendsetting in particular. How does that all come to life at elf?
- [25:13]
Lori Lam
Yeah, I think it comes back to an earlier point that was made about listening and listening to your community and being so in tune with them that if they were to just pivot a little bit, you know exactly what they're thinking and seeing. And when you're really in tune and listening to what your community wants, you can give them. I wouldn't say. I mean, yes, you're setting trends, but you're shaping culture at the same time. And it's almost just giving something that is less than a trend. What does a Trend do for someone, it gets them excited, it makes them feel a part of something, but it also makes it feel very culturally relevant for them. I think one thing that we did that I'm extremely proud of because I think it was rooted in making people feel seen, our community feels seen was we learned about how Gen Z is not using skincare.
- [25:58]
Josh Rosenberg
Yes.
- [25:59]
Lori Lam
And they're not necessarily doing things. And they were actually committing a lot of skin sins. It's true. Skin sins. It's a thing. And some of the skin sins. And we said, let's put it out there of our community because they were being responsive in a way. And we said, let's engage us a little further. We put out a little poll on social and we asked people, what kind of skin sins are you committing? The response was.
- [26:19]
Josh Rosenberg
It was horrifying.
- [26:21]
Lori Lam
I was gonna say traumatic.
- [26:22]
Peter V. S Vaughn
I almost don't want to take the question.
- [26:23]
Josh Rosenberg
Traumatic, traumatic. But it was a great INS for global campaign. Yeah.
- [26:28]
Lori Lam
Incredible.
- [26:29]
Peter V. S Vaughn
Where can we find this questionnaire on Skin Sense?
- [26:31]
Lori Lam
Well, it was on our social, but if you follow us on social, you will see we back there.
- [26:36]
Shree Rajagopalan
We can go. We can dig it out of the archives.
- [26:38]
Peter V. S Vaughn
Yeah, we're going to ask our audience, do you commit Skin Sense?
- [26:42]
Lori Lam
Please do. Please do. And please feed them back to me because then we can work on a chapter two here.
- [26:46]
Josh Rosenberg
Exactly.
- [26:47]
Lori Lam
But what was unique about it was they were telling us some of the things like they pop pimples. You don't do that. They don't wash their face when they come home at night because they are tired. They don't wear spf. And so we took all of those really fun insights and we have a catalog of them, by the way. And we took three of them that mirrored our community most and we actually brought them to life in a campaign with Megan Stalter. It was incredible. We made her a skinfluencer. And she was actually on the side on the ear. She's a devil by your ear, telling you, right, don't wash your face, you're so tired. Just go to bed. And you know, don't, don't do these things. And it was just a twist on it. So when we build something where we see an insight and we're listening and we go there with LSP together, we don't just put it out there. And it's not your straightforward wash your face. It's actually don't wash your face. This was not sponsored by Eskin. And it's just the twist that we put towards things. So it's. That's that's the thing, that's the wink that I think our community understands so well and they know to expect from us. So it's not just delivering on humor, it's delivering on emotional resonance with cultural relevance, with the ELF wind wit and wink that only we can do together.
- [27:54]
Shree Rajagopalan
I'll tell you, it's working in my household. My wife is an elf user and if I make mention of the fact that I have a pimple, my six year old daughter will scream out, don't pop it.
- [28:06]
Lori Lam
Ice it.
- [28:07]
Shree Rajagopalan
Exactly, exactly. My wife has taught her very well.
- [28:10]
Lori Lam
Love that.
- [28:12]
Peter V. S Vaughn
So, Josh, I'm going to flip this question to both of you, but I want to start with you first. Reputational risk. I've come from very large brands. PepsiCo, J&J. Revlon, General Mills. Reputational risk was, I want to say everything. As a result, it curtailed our ability to be bold because we were worried about reputation and we were. Risk averse is the right word. As an agency. What, what comes to your mind when I say reputational risk, I mean brand safety.
- [28:39]
Josh Rosenberg
I think, you know, I think in today's day and age there is a lot of the world is moving so quickly. So I think it is, you got to take a step back and really make sure that you have a strong brand vision. And I think we're fortunate. I mean, ELF obviously has a very strong brand vision, but they're also super entrepreneurial. So I think, you know, when you're thinking about brand risk, like, you know, their legal team has a seat at the table for, you know, and they move quickly and they really have been able to figure out a way to operationalize creativity so that it minimizes the reputational risk and they're true to their values. And I think we try to partner with similar clients who are also true to their values that we truly understand. You know, what is their philosophy? How can they show up every day in social and in creative? Because once you know who you are, it's a lot easier to be able to know what those guardrails are for, how you might show up and what is and what is not brand safe, frankly.
- [29:39]
Peter V. S Vaughn
So, Lori, so I'm now going to ask you for the secret sauce. But maybe it's not. Maybe it is. It really is. So what's the secret sauce then for green lighting? Bold ideas, as Josh mentioned, that carry both upside and reputational risk.
- [29:53]
Lori Lam
Oh, hold on, let me, let me tackle this way. I think when you're talking about reputation risk, 100% agree with everything you say. For me, reputational Risk on a brand like ELF, and especially as a chief brand officer, would be doing something that is actually against the grain of our ethos. That to me would be reputational risk because you're breaking the authenticity and all of the connections that you've made with your community. So the biggest reputational risk for me is going against your ethos and not living by what you have actually set out to do and set out to be different and apart from others and actually are not afraid to do if you're a community. If we started pulling back on some of our messages and it would shock our community, they wouldn't know what to expect from us. So I think it's really important for that.
- [30:40]
Shree Rajagopalan
Josh, Lori and the team at ELF depend upon you to execute the creative that they're seeking to achieve these kinds of connection points with consumers. So my question is, how do you build a creative team that understands how to both earn and respect the hyper aware consumers that we have in today's marketplace?
- [31:06]
Josh Rosenberg
I mean, honestly, I think it is really about curiosity and I think that's like the biggest driver of our creative team. Because I think you want people that are constantly looking ahead and constantly asking questions. Because even to Lori's point about not looking to the past, like the past is the past, it's like how do we navigate today and tomorrow and how do we continue to build and learn together? So I think the curiosity piece is so important to being culturally relevant today and in the future. I mean, it means like learning new tools, right? It means understanding where the conversation is starting, who are the voices of influence? And then it also means how do I sell in an idea? Right. How do I present it? How do I think about like that consumer insight that is going to be on the ELF brand or, you know, for any of our other clients.
- [31:52]
Shree Rajagopalan
Do you monitor how much time they're doom scrolling and making sure you haven't hit your quota for the day? It's not, not quite that crazy.
- [31:58]
Josh Rosenberg
No, not, not that crazy.
- [31:59]
Shree Rajagopalan
Okay, good.
- [32:00]
Josh Rosenberg
And hopefully there's more optimism. Yes. Than the doom scroll, because I feel like any of us can sort of scroll on and on and on, but I also think, you know, taking a step away and having outside interest. Like we do something at day one called outside D1A where people, you know, we want people to have other, whether it's a side hustle or another passion, like to come and bring their true selves to the agency and to the work. Because I think that sense makes them more interesting. But also it helps us be able to sort of connect some of those ideas that might not just be happening in your scroll.
- [32:35]
Peter V. S Vaughn
You know, you bring back our own memory of how the CPG guys started because it started as a passion project and now is a full time media platform.
- [32:44]
Shree Rajagopalan
We're not a side hustle anymore.
- [32:46]
Peter V. S Vaughn
Well, you know what we're going to ask Josh and Laurie that we're going to ask them right before we wrap up the show. Not yet. So one of the things I want to hit up to is it's somewhat of a tough question for marketers but I think it's an important one to address for the industry. Having come from a commercial sales background, CCO for General Mills last role calling on retail sales teams often believe that marketing is a lot of fluff and it's a lot of foo foo. And what we do here at Khan is all about being pretentious and winning awards. And a large part of that my teams would tell me and the industry tells me is because of attribution. The world has changed. Now where we are truly in full funnel marketing, if you choose to be, it can be 100% of the time. So the question I want to ask you is what KPIs do you both care about when evaluating campaigns and every single piece of media that you put out in the marketplace, digital, physical, any form. Maybe we can start with you, Loy.
- [33:41]
Lori Lam
Yeah, I mean I think there's always a, there's always the upper funnel versus lower funnel argument that, you know, debate, I'll call it a debate that is had. And I think that you can really do both. Right. And I think the way that we look at measurement oftentimes is yes, it's great to see the converge, it's great to see someone convert and it's great to see those numbers. But we also do also look at tracking traffic. Right. We also look at how, you know, in that many ways. We look at the eyeballs that this gets. And I think the more important thing that hits at the heart whether or not we know we have struck a chord or not is in our community reactions. The engagement and the sentiment. I think those are factors that you can't necessarily put an ROI on those because it's important to see that what persists over time is not going to be whether or not someone comes back and repurchases. Yes, great. I'd love to have that in the bag. But it's more important whether or not I have them for the long term. Right. Customer lifetime value important. I'm not saying it's not Important, but also being able to see whether or not your brand has hit at their heart to be something more deeply meaningful to them and a representative of what they're trying to say when they carry ELF in their bag. That is what I want to earn. I want to earn that.
- [34:51]
Peter V. S Vaughn
And Josh, let me ask you that same questions, right? How do you think about KPI's measurement? What. What is success to you?
- [34:58]
Josh Rosenberg
I mean, I think to Lori's point about earning, it's about the share.
- [35:02]
Shree Rajagopalan
Right.
- [35:02]
Josh Rosenberg
And the comment is about creating that conversation striking a chord here. People that actually actively hit the share button or take an action for me, I think is the. One of the biggest measures of success, especially when you're thinking about a campaign that you're trying to drive upper funnel and brand love around or some brand action. Obviously, sales are very important and are a key to all of the things that we do and that obviously pays for all the great marketing. But I think when you're trying to build a brand and earn the trust of the consumer and, you know, drive advocacy, that share and the comment is the gold.
- [35:41]
Shree Rajagopalan
Laurie, I'm going to set the super bowl apart as a very distinct event, but when I look at traditional media, linear television, print, is it still relevant in your media mix or are you leaning much more into digital, social and experiential? Like, what's the, what's the combination of ingredients? Yeah, I kind of am.
- [36:05]
Lori Lam
I don't think it's dead. I mean, outside from the Super Bowl, I think it's, you know, you have to kind of think of it this way. I think I approach it very differently with the team as well. We look at it in terms of creating the best content first. Right. Based on the grounded insight rooted in the message and rooted in the insight, but also with the emotional resonance and the cultural relevance and the disruption. For me, if I get that first, it then dictates a little bit more of the medium in terms of where it goes. I think for us there is a lot of respecting the creative integrity of asset that helps bring your insight to life. And so I'm not answering your question except for saying that what matters to me more is ensuring that I have the right message and the right storytelling out for my brand to reach my community. And. And after that, the platform then comes decided, okay, it's a little bit backwards, I think, where people are like, I'm going to create a TV spot and this is how it's going to go. We'd rather say it's important for us to make sure. The insight gets out to life with the consumer, insight in the community and then decide which platform.
- [37:13]
Peter V. S Vaughn
And Josh, as an agency, I want to ask you the exact same question. Right. Are you guys, when you advise brands, leaning more into hey, let's go heavy social, digital, or are you saying, hey, I need to look at the full. Mmm. This needs to be a very thorough marketing mix model which should look at many channels like what I want to. I'd love to hear what's behind that thinking.
- [37:33]
Josh Rosenberg
Yeah, I think it's really trying to find the consumer where they are, frankly. And I think especially in 2025, that is harder and harder to do at scale. So I think each, honestly, each go to market plan is so customized based on the brand, the timing, who the consumer is, what is the product you're trying to sell at that moment, or what is that brand message. So I don't think there's a one size fits all, but I think even to Laurie's point, it is about the message and then figuring out where is the medium, you know, that you can actually reach that consumer.
- [38:08]
Peter V. S Vaughn
Speaking of channels, what is the next frontier of earned led storytelling look like for brands?
- [38:14]
Josh Rosenberg
Ooh, great question. I was going to say creator, but I really think it really is about relationships and I think that goes to creator as well. But I think it is about building relationships with an audience and in an authentic way. I think our earned backgrounds and we started as a PR agency, we're now a full creative agency and a PR agency. But you know, earning attention is so different to today than it was 11 years when we started because of how the media landscape has evolved. And you know, everyone is media today, you know, so a podcast, you guys, a podcast, you guys are about that. You guys have a great audience.
- [38:56]
Lori Lam
Right.
- [38:56]
Josh Rosenberg
But you have great sales are influential.
- [38:59]
Peter V. S Vaughn
Right.
- [39:00]
Josh Rosenberg
So I think for us it's about thinking about, you know, how do you build relationships in this world where that, you know, is so creator driven. So I think that to me is the future of earned in so many ways.
- [39:12]
Lori Lam
Yeah.
- [39:14]
Shree Rajagopalan
I'll start with Lori on this and I'll ask.
- [39:15]
Peter V. S Vaughn
He gets the fun question of the day.
- [39:17]
Shree Rajagopalan
I know. It is my favorite actually.
- [39:18]
Peter V. S Vaughn
I can't believe I wrote it as.
- [39:20]
Shree Rajagopalan
A. I know you. You clearly didn't do the ordering very well. But with so many retailers now becoming publishers, what role does retail media play in your marketing mix today? How are you navigating this world with 100 plus RMNs all looking for you to invest? Is it central? Is it decentralized? Is the collaboration Are you just focusing on like what's, what's the big plan with retail media?
- [39:50]
Lori Lam
I think even when we look at retail media, it is really one facet of the larger ecosystem. We see that retail media does well for us as well as other outlets. I think it for, for the, the underarching theme that I feel when I think about retail media and all the different ones that are out there today and all of the screaming come, you know, let's do this, let's do this. It's, it's really important that when we think about the work that we do, and I mentioned even thinking about whether it's TV or which platform is being a little bit discerning in terms of like what is actually going to be the strongest vehicle to get to our community and letting that be a guiding path so that when we look at retail media, it's a facet of the ecosystem.
- [40:31]
Shree Rajagopalan
Are there certain imperatives that you're looking for? Like I need to have this level of transparency for measurement.
- [40:36]
Lori Lam
Transparency.
- [40:38]
Shree Rajagopalan
Like what are the components that I.
- [40:39]
Lori Lam
Would say transparency, authenticity are baseline, foundation for us? I don't know how you feel.
- [40:45]
Josh Rosenberg
Yeah, no, agree. I think when it comes to retail media, obviously it's a data play, right. And I think when you think about performance like that it does work in many cases and it is another channel as the consumer becomes so disintermediated and they know so much about the consumer shopping habits and that first party data. But I will say to Lori's point is one piece of it. But we are seeing it more and more, especially on a lot of the CPG brands that we work with. Retail media is one of the channels that we're creating custom creative for so that we can reach the audience again where they are.
- [41:24]
Peter V. S Vaughn
Awesome. Let me remind our listeners, you can find all of our content by simply going to a web Browser and typing cpguys.com as the URL. If you or someone you know is something to contribute to this ongoing discussion of the CPG guys, drop us a line at contactpguys.com again that email contactpguys.com to our audience. Thank you for the clicks, likes, comments, DMs, meeting us at trade shows, coming to our events, recording episodes with us at trade shows like we're doing right now. And of course our sponsors, we are always grateful for you. The show actually doesn't exist without all of you. I'll ask you to drop us a rating, especially on the Apple podcast.
- [42:00]
Shree Rajagopalan
What's your favorite number?
- [42:00]
Peter V. S Vaughn
I've closed my eyes it says five.
- [42:02]
Shree Rajagopalan
Five. I like five too.
- [42:03]
Peter V. S Vaughn
I don't know why that just comes out. So I'll ask you all to leave us a rating. The rating tells us how we're doing. The review tells us having the right conversations with the right people. You work with us all year. We're grateful to have you as your audience and partners. Thank you to the both of you. Busy show. Thank you for giving us an hour and actually recording this podcast live.
- [42:22]
Josh Rosenberg
Thank you for having us.
- [42:24]
Lori Lam
It's awesome.
- [42:25]
Peter V. S Vaughn
That's a wrap of this episode. See you soon on another episode of.
- [42:29]
Shree Rajagopalan
The CPT Guys Podcast. Goodbye. The content in this podcast episode is provided for general informational purposes only. By listening to our episode, you understand that no information contained in this episode should be construed as advice from CPG Guys, LLC or the individual author, hosts, or guests, nor is it intended to be a substitute for research on any subject matter. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by CPGuys LLC. The views expressed by guests are their own, and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. The views expressed by CPTGuys LLC do not represent the views of their employers or the entity they represent. CPT Guys LLC expressly disclaims any and all liability or responsibility for any direct, indirect, incidental, special, consequential, or other damages arising out of any individual's use of, reference to, or inability to use this podcast or the information we present in this podcast.