Live from Cannes with Primo Brands’ Kheri Holland Tillman & Doner’s David DeMuth

Summary

Podcast Summary: The CPG Guys – Live from Cannes with Primo Brands’ Carrie Holland Tillman & Donor’s David Demuth

Episode Information:

• Title: Live from Cannes with Primo Brands’ Carrie Holland Tillman & Donor’s David Demuth
• Hosts: Peter V.S. Bond & Shree Rajagopalan
• Guests: Carrie Holland Tillman (Chief Marketing Officer, Primo Brands) & David Demuth (CEO, Donor)
• Release Date: July 19, 2025
• Location: Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity, Cannes, France

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1. Introduction and Event Announcements

The episode kicks off with Shree Rajagopalan announcing the upcoming Big Grocery Shop Kickoff Party in Las Vegas, scheduled for September 28th. This event, hosted in partnership with Rethink Retail, serves as a gathering for industry leaders to celebrate the start of the annual event.

Notable Quote:

• “Our kickoff party is where all the industry luminaries customarily gather to celebrate the beginning of this annual event.” – Shree Rajagopalan [00:01]

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2. Welcome and Guest Introductions

Shree and Peter introduce the premise of The CPG Guys podcast, focusing on how brands and retailers engage consumers across various channels. The guests for this episode are Carrie Holland Tillman from Primo Brands and David Demuth from Donor, both bringing extensive experience in marketing and brand strategy.

Notable Quotes:

• “He spent 35 plus years helping the agency best serve its clients, attract top talent and transform it into the modern marketing machine it is today.” – Shree Rajagopalan [02:48]
• “Her experience ranges across multiple categories including beverages, electronics and food.” – Shree Rajagopalan [03:08]

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3. Defining Creativity in a Data-Driven World

The conversation begins with defining creativity amidst the surge of data and performance metrics. Carrie emphasizes balancing science and art to truly engage consumers, while David highlights that creativity stems from insightful ideas that resonate emotionally.

Notable Quotes:

• “Creative is really about understanding what the problem is in its simplest terms and then finding cool, interesting different ways to bring it to consumers.” – Carrie Holland Tillman [04:07]
• “At its core it's an insight, an idea and some type of platform to activate that idea.” – David Demuth [04:53]
• “Creativity... touches people emotionally.” – Peter V.S. Bond [05:22]

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4. Harmony Between Creativity and Commerce

Shree probes how creativity and commerce can coexist without conflict. Carrie shares Primo Brands' strategy of integrating MLB partnerships to enhance both retail presence and consumer engagement, demonstrating that bold creative initiatives can drive measurable business outcomes.

Notable Quotes:

• “We were able to take MLB as a base and find a way for it to show up in retail and also directly to consumers.” – Carrie Holland Tillman [05:51]
• “I think, you know, they can live in harmony.” – David Demuth [08:55]

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5. Modern Brand-Agency Relationships

The discussion shifts to the evolution of brand-agency partnerships. David underscores the importance of foundational values like honesty and transparency, while Carrie emphasizes true partnership and aligning goals to drive business results.

Notable Quotes:

• “Core values that have never changed... honesty, transparency.” – David Demuth [10:38]
• “Having someone on the agency side who truly understands what you're trying to do.” – Carrie Holland Tillman [13:34]

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6. Delivering Real Business Outcomes

Shree asks what brands and agencies should understand about each other to achieve real business outcomes. Both guests highlight the necessity of clear goals, constant feedback, and flexible strategies that align creative efforts with business objectives.

Notable Quotes:

• “Set the right goals and objectives and share those with the agency.” – Carrie Holland Tillman [13:34]
• “Clear and constant feedback and communication.” – David Demuth [17:24]

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7. Balancing Brand Building with Measurable Business Results

Peter raises the challenge of balancing short-term sales targets with long-term brand equity. Carrie explains that combining bold brand activations with strategic business tactics ensures both immediate conversions and sustained brand growth.

Notable Quotes:

• “You can focus on awareness and driving people in store… It allows you to avoid being stuck between short-term wins and long-term brand equity.” – Carrie Holland Tillman [18:23]
• “Having a full funnel approach helps in pulling through from awareness to purchase.” – Carrie Holland Tillman [19:46]

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8. Measuring Emotional Resonance in Branding

The hosts delve into assessing the impact of emotional connections in branding. David discusses various measurement tools and the importance of research-driven strategies, while Carrie emphasizes a broader perspective on ROI that includes awareness and engagement metrics alongside sales figures.

Notable Quotes:

• “There’s lots of ways to measure brand, and it's not always easy.” – David Demuth [34:38]
• “ROI is never about just a dollar return; it's about awareness, consideration, and engagement rates.” – Carrie Holland Tillman [37:18]

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9. Sustainability Practices at Primo Brands

Shree touches on sustainability, prompting Carrie to outline Primo Brands' commitment to responsible resource management, circular packaging, reduced carbon footprint, and community engagement. Sustainability is integral to their business model, ensuring long-term viability.

Notable Quotes:

• “We need to be successful... doing it sustainably, otherwise we won’t be here in 10 years.” – Carrie Holland Tillman [39:30]
• “35% of our bottles are in recycled plastic, which is more expensive but essential.” – Carrie Holland Tillman [39:30]

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10. Trends and Takeaways from Cannes

In a rapid-fire round, guests share their key takeaways from the Cannes Lions Festival. David highlights the role of AI in enhancing creativity and the enduring power of live experiences. Carrie predicts a consumer backlash against information overload, emphasizing the need for simplified, meaningful brand messaging.

Notable Quotes:

• “AI is going to be the theme of the next few years, enhancing and scaling creativity.” – David Demuth [41:36]
• “Consumers are overwhelmed; there might be a backlash and desire for less distraction.” – Carrie Holland Tillman [42:44]

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11. Conclusion and Closing Remarks

The episode wraps up with hosts thanking the guests for their insights on authentic brand building. Shree and Peter reflect on the balance between creativity and measurable outcomes, underscoring the podcast’s dedication to fostering meaningful industry conversations.

Notable Quotes:

• “Thank you for having us. Great brands, great partners. I couldn't ask for anything more.” – Carrie Holland Tillman [46:14]
• “This is our last recording for the week. Hey, that's a wrap of this episode of the CPG Guys.” – Peter V.S. Bond [46:43]

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Key Insights and Takeaways:

• Integrating Creativity with Data: Successful brand strategies require a harmonious blend of creative intuition and data-driven insights to engage consumers emotionally while driving business results.

• Strong Brand-Agency Partnerships: Transparent, honest, and goal-aligned relationships between brands and agencies are crucial for delivering impactful marketing campaigns that balance short-term sales with long-term brand equity.

• Measuring Emotional ROI: Beyond traditional sales metrics, brands should consider awareness, engagement, and consumer perception to evaluate the effectiveness of emotionally resonant campaigns.

• Sustainability as a Core Business Pillar: Incorporating sustainable practices into the business model not only addresses environmental concerns but also enhances brand reputation and ensures long-term success.

• Adapting to Emerging Trends: Staying ahead with technologies like AI and responding to consumer desires for less information overload are essential for maintaining relevance in a rapidly evolving market landscape.

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Conclusion: This episode of The CPG Guys provides a comprehensive exploration of the intersection between creativity, data, and commerce in modern brand strategies. With expert insights from Carrie Holland Tillman and David Demuth, listeners gain valuable perspectives on building authentic brand relationships, measuring emotional impact, and embracing sustainability and technological advancements to drive both immediate and lasting business success.

Transcript

[Shree Rajagopalan]

If you're planning on attending grocery shop this fall, make sure to arrive in Las Vegas mid afternoon on Sunday, September 28th. That way you'll be able to attend the Big Grocery Shop Kickoff Party being hosted by the CPG Guys in partnership with Rethink Retail. The party runs Sunday, September 28th from 6:30 to 8:30pm Our kickoff party is where all the industry luminaries customarily gather to celebrate the beginning of this annual event. In the coming weeks, we'll provide more details on how to register and how to sponsor. In the meantime, make sure your travel plans ensure your arrival in Las Vegas to join us for the Kickoff Party.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

I am Carrie Holland Tillman and I am the Chief Marketing Officer of Primo.

[David Demuth]

Brands and I'm David demuth, the CEO of Donor and you're listening to the CPG Guys Podcast.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Welcome to the CPG Guys Podcast. Your host, Shree Rajagopelan and Peter V. S Bond explore how brands and retailers engage consumers in an increasingly digitally driven world. And now, here are the CPG Guys.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Welcome to the CPG Guys Podcast live from the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity straight from Cannes, France. I'm of course sri, your co host and joining me today is the other co host, Peter Vs Bond. When not on the CPG Guys, I'm also CRO and co founder of Think Blue Consulting, a management advisory firm focused on omnichannel brands and retail transformation. Please do listen to my older daughter's [e-mail]. that's R H E R A J. My younger daughter Lara Raj is a member of the fast growing global girl group Catseye. The new hit Gabriela is out on all channels. We recently hit episode 500 with Amazon VP of ADS Dana Elton, released on June 18th. Please do check it out on all podcasting platforms. We appreciate you leaving us a review and rating on the Apple Podcast platform. It informs us how we're doing and if you're having the right conversations on this podcast. The CPG Guys were here all week and recorded several episodes with industry luminaries from CMOs to brand and retail media leadership. Enjoy this episode. And now on to our guest Today. Let's welcome David demute, CEO of Donor, who is focused on how consumers perceive brands, make decisions and establish loyalty. As the CEO, he spent 35 plus years helping the agency best serve its clients, attract top talent and transform it into the modern marketing machine it is today. And we can't wait to have a discussion on all three of those words Marketing, modern and machine. Also joined By Kerry Holland Tillman, a dynamic marketing and sales executive with over 25 years of success in CPG, an industry we come from, and also CMO of Primo brands. Her experience ranges across multiple categories including beverages, electronics and food. With opportunities to drive a range of brand types, innovation, iconic brands, brand turnarounds all the way to some of our favorites from Jell O jbl, Dosa Keys and Poland Spring. David and Kenny, welcome to the CPG guys. How you doing?

[David Demuth]

Good, thank you.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Very good, very good. Excited to be here.

[David Demuth]

We're in an air conditioned room.

[Peter V. S Bond]

There we go.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

With a view of the beach that we never really get to enjoy because we're working for four straight days.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

That's right.

[Peter V. S Bond]

So welcome, welcome indeed, guys. We're excited to have you here. We'll include your LinkedIn profiles, donors and Primo Brands websites and LinkedIn pages for our listeners to access in the digital liner notes of this episode. Because that's what they love to do, multitasking. So here we start, and this question is for both of you today. But actually sometimes I forget we're actually in a festival of creativity because there's so many other topics and bystander things going on over here. But I want to actually start with the main mission and purpose of this festival, which is creative. So I'd love to hear from each of you. Maybe Kay, you can go first and then we'll come to you. David, how do you define creative? And in a world driven by data, retail media, performance metrics, what, what is even creative these days?

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

You know, it's really interesting. The idea of creative has so evolved over time. Right. And I think if you get too caught up with data and too caught up with the science of it, you actually lose the core of what creative is. So for me, creative is really about understanding what the problem is in its simplest terms and then finding cool, interesting different ways to bring it to consumers. And if can do that and truly engage them, I think you have now created something that is unique, different, and will reach your consumer. So I think it's the mass, the mash of, I think it's the mash of science and the art that comes together to really find a way to reach consumers.

[Peter V. S Bond]

And David, your perspective?

[David Demuth]

Yeah. Well, I think creativity today is a lot of things, you know, but at its core it's an insight, an idea and some type of platform to activate that idea. And sometimes the insight is data driven, sometimes it's just based on an observation that you might see out on the street or in a store, whatever about human behavior and something that touches people emotionally.

[Peter V. S Bond]

I think that's the key word touches people emotionally. With the way we've been so lower funnel focused in the last few years with retail media, you've kind of gotten over from creative. Hopefully today we'll discover and bring back that word emotions in creative.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

I'd love to hear from both the perspective of a brand and agency, how can creativity and commerce work in harmony and not in conflict?

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Carrie, in that question, I don't know how hard it is. Right. I think if you go back to what is it that you want the consumer to understand and be really true about who your brand is, whether you're showing up in retail or showing up in social media, I don't know if those two actually have to be in conflict. We work really hard to understand the insight. We'll take MLB for example. One of the reasons why we signed our MLB deal was because it could get us into store and get us displays. And that was really core to what we needed to do. The way we layered that on with creative that touches our consumer is we partnered with the right people. Right. So Fernando Tatis is a player from the San Diego Padres. So we were able to extend mlb bring it to our consumer. And we launched. He did a post the other day that was 10 times the engagement that we typically have on our posts that are singular. So we were able to take MLB as a base and find a way for it to show up in retail and. And also directly to consumers, but in different ways so the consumer could actually really engage with the content that was created.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Yeah. Carrie, by the way, I should mention to you that we're not actually a CPG podcast, We're a baseball podcast. You're looking at a die hard Yankee and a true blue Dodger fan.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

There you go.

[Peter V. S Bond]

And so here's the deal.

[David Demuth]

And I'm wearing a Tatiz T shirt.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Yeah, there you go.

[Peter V. S Bond]

I saw that. That was good. Bring it up. And you said Fernando Tatis. The first thing that goes to my head is it's actually Junior Ferner.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Tatis Jr. You are fine.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Die hard baseball addicts. We were at. He's a. He's a Dodgers fan living in Yankee.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Land 1 through 4 of the world Series last year.

[Peter V. S Bond]

He was just over visiting me.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Remember the league of the league of your own. No crying in baseball.

[David Demuth]

Yes.

[Peter V. S Bond]

He tries to bring it up and then I flashed the 27 Yankees championship and he walks away like a little boss.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Sorry. See, I told you.

[Peter V. S Bond]

But now, now I am curious though. Is It a MLB partnership that's nationw. Is there a team because of Fernando or how are you guys actually doing this?

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

So we have a national MLB deal because we have our six regional spring water. So we're. We have to activate locally but sign deals nationally because otherwise you can't afford to sign all those smaller deals. And so we did the national deal really, because MLB allowed us to get into retail, allows us to talk to the retailers in a different way, but then it also allows us to activate our brands.

[Peter V. S Bond]

And.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

And then the overlay, true local overlay, was to go to specific players. And so we ended up signing four different players. Fernando was the first one that we've activated. And that really, like, again, it truly engaged our consumers in a way we did not expect because we found a way to marry MLB as a bigger entity with something that they could relate to personally.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

So.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Well, you certainly come to the right podcast to talk mlb. But David, we still would like your perspective on that as well. And by now we've forgotten what it is.

[David Demuth]

I was going to say, I forgot what the question was.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Harmony or conflict?

[David Demuth]

I think, you know, they can live in harmony. And I think one of the things we're seeing with our clients, particularly in CPG and retail, they've kind of optimized their brands into oblivion in a sense that they've gotten so targeted with the media. All these retail media things they forgot about, hey, there's a lot of other people out there in the world that might be interested in your product. And I think Kerry brings up a great point too. My first job was working in a grocery store, and my dad ran a chain of grocery stores. So I always think about, like, the retail level. How does something. How does an idea activate at retail? We used to call it screen to shelf and the moment of truth.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

It's the moment.

[David Demuth]

The moment of truth. The last three feet. There's. There's no shortage.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

We get.

[David Demuth]

We got our.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

We got our message.

[David Demuth]

But. But I continue to think that that's really important, that when you're thinking about creativity and commerce and you're trying to find the intersection is will that idea move the retailer? Will it grab people's attention in the store? And I think, particularly when you're talking about a product like water, that is essentially a commodity, you know, you want to have that thing that. That separates, we call them. A lot of the time we talk about distinctive brand assets, DBAs, and, you know, what are those things that. I might see it on my phone and then I see it in the store. And I've made the connection.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Yeah, absolutely. So we're lucky to have both of you, brand and agency together here on the podcast. So I'm tempted to ask both of you, what does a modern, high functioning brand agency relationship look like in 2025? How's it evolved over the years?

[David Demuth]

I think there are certain core values that have never changed. You know, from the agency side, understanding your client's business from the ground up. You know, honesty, transparency, this, These are.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Literally, you're the fifth group that we've recorded that have said the exact same words. Transparency and trust, triumph, everything.

[David Demuth]

Look, I think those things are really, really important and it's not always as easy to achieve these days. You know, remember the days with the agency you got on a nice big F fee and you, you straight line the money over 12 months and now we're paid in different ways by project, by.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

That's a good thing. And that's, that's actually something we hear about. It's changing because with the, the, the injection of AI into this, how you, how you price your work is, is going to fundamentally. Exactly.

[David Demuth]

Yeah. Look, I, I, I think, you know, we all need to take those steps very carefully.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Yeah, sure.

[David Demuth]

But look, I think those things haven't changed. And I think today agencies that really have a good grasp of data, that are proactive. And I always remind my team we're in a service business, so our service ethic is really, really important to us. And I read this quote from the former CEO of McDonald's a couple of years ago, and it really rang true with me. He said the world will never move slower than it does today, just meaning that things are just going to keep getting faster. So as an agency, we need to be able to respond almost in real time because there's things happening in culture, there's things happening in your business that we need to be prepared to jump on. So I think those are the foundational things that make a difference.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

I would agree. The one I would build on it is that true partnership. So being able to have someone who write Monica for me, which is there is a problem, an issue, an opportunity, something to be solved, and to know that you have a partner on the other end who truly does understand your business, who understands what the goals are of the business, and they're not always just about awareness. We think marketing is about awareness. But if you're not driving to the bottom line dollar, you're not doing your job anymore. Right. And so having someone on the other end, on the agency side, that truly understands what you're trying to do. It allows for a relationship that is very different than if it's transactional.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

What do you wish more agencies and brands understood about each other when it comes to delivering real business outcomes? What is your advice to others that are in the same kind of situation as an agency out of brand? What do they need to know about each other?

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

I think the first thing is making sure as a brand team, as a client, we understand what we want to get out of what we're doing. We need to set the right goals. We need to set the right objectives for ourselves if we do that right first, and then we can then share those with the agency and create the same set of goals and objectives for the agency. So, again, when you're going into the conversation, we're really clear at the beginning that says this is what we want to get out of what we're about to do. And sometimes it's going to be directly about conversion. There may be something that we need to do. Conversion may be the thing that's slipping. And so we'll create and we'll work with the agency to create an idea that will get us to that specific goal. I think you have to be flexible in where you're going, but have to be clear in what you're trying to get out of it. I think we set that up and are really clear about it. I think it's important. Where it really works as a relationship is also have the agency push back. When you're saying, I hear you, I don't know how that's going to be measured. Being able to have a dialogue that's like, I hear you want to get conversion, but unless we have that measurement and we can actually go do the research, how are you going to know that you actually did that? So those are the pieces that need to work.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

What I interpret that is with respect to the transparency and trust, this is about knowing that feedback is meant to be a gift and to help you not to demoralize or demean you. It's truly, Dave, your perspective on this?

[Peter V. S Bond]

Yeah.

[David Demuth]

Well, I think from an agency perspective, I try to always remind myself that what. What we're doing on behalf of the client may not be the only thing on their mind that day.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Okay, that's a big one.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

You know what that is? You always think you're the center, that.

[David Demuth]

They have other things that might be related to product. It might be internal constituents, it might be your retailer, it might be the board, whatever. There are a lot of other things going on so we need to be patient and understanding and helpful in that regard. And then from, from the client back to the agency. I think, you know, creativity is sort of like, it's an, it's a vulnerable act. Right. You're putting something out into the world, you're making yourself vulnerable. And I think creative people crave feedback and they create, they crave consistent and frequent feedback because it's an act of vulnerability, in a sense. And I think, you know, our best client relationships have really great feedback loops in them and those might be formal, they might be informal, they're often frequent. Because I think that the worst thing that can happen in a client agency relationship is when problems fester and they don't get themselves out there quickly because, you know, most problems are solvable.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Right, right. You know, it's funn. The other day we were presented an idea and the team, the most senior person, wasn't there and so they said, well, we'll get back to you with feedback. And I was like, no, you have to give feedback. Even if it's just initial feedback that is, hey, we think the idea delivered, but there's an opportunity in this area. But let us regroup and come back to you. I think the worst thing you can do with a creative is not give any feedback.

[David Demuth]

No.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Right, right. And when they've presented an idea. So we've stopped the team from saying we're going to regroup and give you feedback every time that it's presented. We want some feedback at that moment so that that can be taken in and then we can give you more before we go to it.

[David Demuth]

Yeah, I think that's really, really important and kind of at the core of good agency. Client related, but beyond understanding the business. Always just like just clear and constant feedback and communication.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Feedback is important. It's a gift. As Peter said, or earlier, it looks like the team was exercising the Hippo rule. You guys know what the Hippo rule is? Highest paid person's opinion.

[David Demuth]

Yeah.

[Peter V. S Bond]

In the crazy, crazy world we live in, which in the last two years has seen significant volume challenges, lapsed brands, lost households new to brand is the most important, fascinating thing for brands at this point, trying to bring new entrants. Get an innovation. Right. Because there's very little room to fail on innovations these days. Get an M and A. Then there's a long term pressure. Long term pressure. What's the long range plan? 5 years, call it strap plan, whatever. But you still have to deliver aop. So as folks focused on brand equity, how do you really align around Short term must have wins and build that long run, long range equity.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Boy, I guess that's the age old problem, right?

[Peter V. S Bond]

Dilemma.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

I think that, I think they can work hand in hand. Right. If you're raising awareness of your brand and you're driving and you're driving through the funnel, you're driving people in store, you're getting them to consider the brand and then you're hitting them at point of purchase. Right. With, with creative increase awareness should therefore get you an increase in business. Business, right. And I think what we have found is, especially when we do our marketing mix analysis is really having a full funnel. And if we're doing an activation in a marketplace, we are now tied at the hip with the sales team to ensure that they're also going to be in the store with an activation because we know that actually helps pull it all the way through. So marketing acting in and of itself separately from the rest of the business is when it really doesn't work. And so we can focus on awareness, we can focus on, on understanding changing people's perception. If we do it with an overlay of the rest of the tactics, I think that's where we've found we really win and we don't have to be only worried about. Well, it's not just about awareness. It really has to be about what is making someone pick up the product, what is making someone buy it and ensuring that that is in your marketing so that then when you get to that point, when you get to the store, you get online, it's top of mind, it's reminding them that they should be purchasing our product.

[Peter V. S Bond]

I want to reach over and give you a high five because my pet peeve as a former chief customer officer was we weren't doing a good job of coordinating campaigns with in store displays or even trade based buy downs of price, which is of course your price discounting and vice versa. When there were coupons in the marketplace or a program like Fetch or Ibotta or other mechanisms, we weren't really highlighting the heck out of that in store to the merchant. But you're one of the first who's come on the show in five and a half years, 500 plus episodes to speak about completely bridging that gap. And if you guys are pulling that off at primo power to you agency world, you have significant pressure. I'm sure that in the short term you've got to deliver short term wins for your clients. But then you can never ever walk away from brand equity long term development. So how do you do that?

[David Demuth]

Well, I think in the strategic and creative process, it's really important to develop platforms that you know can come to life from 30,000ft down to the ground. And we have what we call like proof of concept. Like how do we demonstrate that this concept can live in all of these places? And it's not just going to make people feel good at the brand, but it's going to motivate them to act at the point of of sale. We did a, I was talking about this earlier today with somebody. We did a campaign in the midst of a campaign for Tylenol and we launched a new brand platform for them, this idea of care without limits. And they had gotten very, very specific, you know, Tylenol pm, Tylenol for kids. And that worked. But we've come over that now with care without limits. And it's making all these other things work a lot harder. The other thing we did was we went into sports, we did a whole thing on the Olympics and talk about taking it from screen to shelf and it drove a meaningful increase in sales and share. So I think you got to start that way. You can't kind of back into it. And you have to think from the brand platform down to the retail level and all sorts of other things too. Whether those be brand X or social and digital or comms. How does all that line up? I think you guys do a really amazing job of it. When I go into my local Meijer, those Ice Mountain displays are huge at the end cap and we're tying in with the Detroit Tigers or there was a great. This wasn't even our idea, somebody else executed it. But the whole Ice Mountain Michigan high school hockey program, like kind of an under leveraged thing. But, but, but their team, highly locally relevant, super locally relevant and, and came to life and, and really fun and interesting and engaging ways. So. But you know, you got to think.

[Peter V. S Bond]

From the beginning like you bought back some memories and some nostalgia today. And thinking of my days from maybe a decade plus ago sitting in the office in Pennsylvania with Denise Denise, the brand president, the sales strategy leader. My sales team is actually discussing Tylenol pm, Tylenol Extrasense, Tylenol. I mean there were six variations. It's great to hear that the best band equity is Tylenol. It's not Tylenol pm.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

So can I just add an interesting point though? Every now and then a really good creative idea that isn't designed to drive conversion or purchase is still okay, right? And we can't be afraid, we can't be afraid of doing that. And so it's finding the balance of those two things of like every now and then, just if it's a cool creative idea, go do it. As opposed to, well, it's not going to drive retail and I think you.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Have to find out. So we've had this obsession last five years because of COVID and the move to Omnichannel that every campaign must be full funnel or must be lower funnel alone. And because of retail media. Right, but we're advocates in the CPG guys. It must always be the brand objective and sometimes that might be upper funnel, simply impressions. And we're very comfortable using the word impressions as an okay metric. And the brand should decide what the mission of that particular campaign is.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

You can't measure ROI on a new product launch. You're trying to build awareness.

[Peter V. S Bond]

But our sales guys will never expect of that.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

They want their magic and that's.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

And that's fine because there's sometimes. And you can find ways to pull it through. I think that we partnered recently on St Patrick's Day for Poland Spring. First time we've ever done it and it was a massive hit. When you think about impressions, engagement rates, things like that, the consumers loved it. There wasn't a huge retail piece of it, a retail component of it. Although I think in the end we were able to tie it to probably like doordash or something. But in, in and of itself, consumers love the concept and thought differently of Cold Spring because of it. And you still have to do those things because you really need to make.

[Peter V. S Bond]

I think, love and drive people as, as brand stewards. We're learning a bitter lesson in the last two years since volume challenges hit us because of inflation and different reasons. Now tariff GLP that if you want to stay true to the mission, you can't be obsessed with retail media. And that's the only way. Lower funnel is the only way because brands are now having to talk to consumers about the value that they present. And the value is not the price point.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Right.

[Peter V. S Bond]

It's the efficacy of the actual product.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Chain. Drug Review's focus is on reaching the key decision makers across all retail channels, delivering comprehensive coverage of the latest shopping trends and in depth category analysis on health, beauty, over the counter products and wellness. Whether it's the latest trends, emerging technologies or strategies for adapting to new consumer behaviors, mass market retailers deliver the critical information retailers need to navigate this dynamic environment. To subscribe to the newsletters of CDR and mmr, simply follow the hyperlinks in the digital liner notes. Of this episode, chain drug review and mass market retailers are published by Retail Media iq.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

You.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

A reminder to our audience that we're speaking with Carrie Hallman Tillman, CMO of Primo Brands and David Demieu, CEO of Donner. David, to you, since we're just talking about retail media, it's reshaping. I hate using the marketing funnel term now. The path to purchase, it's not linear. How's it influencing creative strategy for mirror brand perspective? Are agencies ready for the retail media revolution and are brands equipped to lead it creatively?

[David Demuth]

Yeah, look, I think, I think it goes back to what I was saying earlier. When you're conceptualizing a brand platform and I did, you have to, you have to think about how is it going to activate in that channel of communication and how can you bring some creativity engagement to it as well. And you know, that can be a little bit more challenging I think because of the formats and the way that that information is consumed. But it's a, it's a hell of a challenge for agencies, you know, and you know, I think we're up to it.

[Peter V. S Bond]

All right, David, we're coming right back at you. What happens when the same campaign, which is the world we live in today, across multiple platforms, channels, the same retail media campaign when run across different engines as well as the same campaign across social channels, maybe the same in store display. So TikTok RMN banner. How do you actually protect, how do you actually protect and share the idea across platforms without it looking mega diluted or having mission and purpose for the platform?

[David Demuth]

Well, that's a good question and something that I think agencies are still learning. Okay. One of the things we try to do is have a lot of people on our creative team and in our strategic planning group that are experts in the platforms. We bring the platforms in quarterly to present us what's going on on their platform, what's being rewarded, what isn't being rewarded. So try and inspire creativity around that and then you have to have some experts because things are changing on these people platforms. I don't hourly or every minute. So it's, it's not an easy thing to keep up. And then you have all these agencies, it's just a TikTok agency or it's just a Instagram agency and you have the creators out there. And you know, we're sort of, what do they call, we're frenemies. Right. Because we're, we're both partners and we're competitors. But I think what, what we try to do is stay super current and partner with the platforms as much as possible or at least take in as much information from them as we can get. A couple of the meetings I've had while I've been here in Cannes, some of the better meetings have been with tech platforms.

[Peter V. S Bond]

That's actually awesome to hear, but I'll ask you to wear a brand hat now. You face the same challenge. Agencies, of course, have the challenge of execution. You have the challenge of planning. So how do you think of all these various platforms, channels, et cetera, and how do you even account for that for planning?

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Yeah, I think part of it is understanding what role you want each channel to play for you. Right. And if you can really be clear about that and allow yourself grace for an idea to show up a bit differently depending on where you go. So we have Top Chef for Saratoga. That's a partnership. It shows up in retail, but it also shows up in the on premise accounts. So how it shows up in both of those two things is very different. But we're true to the core of the brand when we show up where we're showing up. And that allows us the flexibility. I think if we're trying to force an idea and say, okay, the commercial shows up this way, so I need it to show up that way in retail, I think it fails. I think where we win is when we give ourselves the room to say it is actually going to show up very differently. It's going to be a recipe based idea in retail. And you're saying, but Saratogen recipes and who cooks. And yet that is exactly what people do. And so I think it's really understanding where, how you want to show up and understanding how consumers use the product in those different places that allows us to be sort of.

[David Demuth]

Occasionally, I think brands have to give some freedom in different channels. A lot of the time, you know, we go, go back to the matching luggage thing. Everything has to be in a certain creative system. May not lend its may not be a best practice on TikTok. So you have to, I think as, as a brand you have to be willing to give a little grace based on what channel and say like, well, maybe the logo is not always going to be in the bottom. Right. Because that's not where it works best. So I think that's a, that's something you, you find over time and together with your partner.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

But then it goes back to the trust.

[David Demuth]

Yeah, right.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Exactly right. Where is the expertise? It's not my expertise, it's your expertise. So come to me.

[David Demuth]

Right.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

And that allows me to Be like, okay, yes. I don't need to see the logo front and center. Right. It actually doesn't have to be on the page.

[Peter V. S Bond]

But then the challenge in today's world is there's something new popping up every half hour. How do you keep pace? How do you learn? Where do you go for your learning? Now, of course, as a brand, you can go to the agency, make it easier.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

I.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

And you shouldn't be afraid to.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Was going to say, I have my Gen Z cohort. I have three of them, and they are the perfect 25, 23, and 19 to be 20 in, like, two weeks. But they are perfect to have conversations with. I find that if I can sit and have the conversations with them and talk to them about what's coming up, they know the newest app, they know the newest technology, and really just having the conversation of, well, where do you think we're missing? And they are very honest with where they think we should be or where they think we are. Were not showing up. So that is definitely one. And we would also say, of course there are a lot of podcasts that are out. It is hard.

[Peter V. S Bond]

You know of any good ones, by the way?

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

You know, I've heard of one called.

[Peter V. S Bond]

The CPG guys, but give us an intro.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

We need to meet these people.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

I can make that happen.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Listen, those Gen Zs, if they ever call you Skibidi or Sus, just pay attention.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

All right, well, non sequitur, because you brought it up. While SRI is constant giving me sarcastic feedback about my appreciation of the Real Housewives series. The only thing that tops that for me is Top Chef and Saratoge synonymous with Top Chef. I have a lot of friends who are in the restaurant business, many of whom appeared on the show in various seasons. So I, for one, thank you for bringing to me the greatest entertainment I have in my life.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

You are welcome. You are welcome.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Between baseball and that, she had you at hello.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

I know, I know. Yeah, there was no way you were going to disappoint me.

[David Demuth]

Carrie.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

How does primo brands balance bold brand building? Man, all those B's in a row. Bull brand only with the need to drive measurable business results. So this is the. I want. I want to talk about the brand, but I got to deliver some. Some numbers.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Yeah, and I said this a little bit before. Those can't be in conflict with each other. If. If as a cmo, I am doing my job, I am building bold brand activations and ideas, and I'm also growing the business. They. They. They are not. They're inseparable as far as I'm concerned. If we think about, you know, we've talked a lot about Saratoga, Poland Spring. We have pure life. It's finding the ideas that resonate with the consumers most, just most at their core, that allows you to then drive the business. So I it to me, I think the bigger and bolder ideas you can, can get within your marketing using your agencies, not only on the creative side, but on activation, on social and all of those places, the bigger you can make an idea, the bigger opportunity you're going to have to actually drive the bottom line. So I push for the big ideas because I think they're going to do a better job in actually allowing me to drive the conversion and really drive the business.

[Peter V. S Bond]

So at the top of the show, David, you had dropped a word emotion. So and so guess who's back? Shady's back with the word emotions. So in this crazy again world that's so roas heavy and often seems to be the only metric many care about, how do you measure the impact of emotional resonance and justify investments in brand storytelling?

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Let me write down your answer.

[David Demuth]

Look, there's a lot of ways to measure brand.

[Peter V. S Bond]

We told you we have practitioners awareness.

[David Demuth]

You know, there's tons of great tools out there and you know, I think anecdotal evidence is good too. Business evidence is good. But you know, getting, threading the needle on just the right emotion and what you want people to feel is not, you know, it's not always easy, you know, but I think if you're smart about who you talk to, the research that you go, we're very research driven agencies. See, it's not like we just go, oh well we made that up. So I, I, I don't, I don't know if I'm giving you a good answer because it's a difficult question.

[Peter V. S Bond]

But sometimes though, sometimes David, and I'm curious to learn here. So isn't it okay to do that? Because if, you know, you know, you, you guys are agencies, you work with many brands, you just know they say.

[David Demuth]

What, you know, good instinct is the product of a lot of experience, you know, and, and I think there's ways to, to test for things. But you know, I'm also a big believer in, you know, when I said before signature brand assets and things like, you know, I think the Poland Springs campaign is a great example of that. It's very integrated. It has a number of, it has the, the, the literal spring, it has the character Patty springs, the whole thing. It, it holds together those Are things, things that, you know, help in terms of striking the right emotion that you want, that you want to leave people.

[Peter V. S Bond]

With, you know, and then as a brand, how do you think you have, you have a similar challenge because sales is coming to you all the time. Your CEO's coming to you and they're thinking about numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers. Numbers can't really measure emotional resonance other than sales numbers, which really is not the same. How do you handle that?

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

I think it's having a broader perspective of what a return on your investment actually is. Right. So an ROI to me is never about just a dollar return. Right. Because if it is, you're always going to be short term and it's always going to be about tomorrow as opposed to anytime we do a campaign, anytime we're spending dollars. It's about a breadth of things that we need to do. We need to drive awareness or we need to change consideration, household penetration, engagement rates. Those are all important ways to say was something that we did worthy of the spend that we put behind it? MLB is another one that like, oh, well, we're not in stadiums, so like it. Why are we doing mlb?

[Peter V. S Bond]

Well, I'm sure you got asked that question by the.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Why would you, you're non endemic. Why would you do that?

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Why would you be, why would, why would you, you know, sponsor something that you're not in all the stadiums? And it's because there's an emotional resonance MLB has outside of being in a stadium because not everybody who goes watches. It's highly emotional and it's highly emotional and it's, and then you can engage with people and find ways to really drive, you know, the business and, and drive your return and it is measurable. So we did, we dropped a sweepstakes or so you could say. Well, sweepstakes is, you know, you have people that are outside of mlb, but if you're engaging with my brand and you're willing to submit your information that allows you to, to log into our loyalty program, which was the hurdle that we set in order to sign up. And we had 5 million people willing to do that. That's huge. Yeah, it's huge. You found a way to engage with someone emotionally at the point of retail. And so we were able to take the, the MLB idea and really bring it through. So I don't think it's one or the other many times, but I think you can find ways to really to show an ROI that isn't just I drove a sale.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Does that mean you're looking at lifetime value as well or long term value of a given consumer or household.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

We don't much. We tend to be, I would say a year or two. Right. So we're looking at what, what's the impact, how are we spending our dollars this year versus last year and how are we doing with things like awareness levels and things like that. We need to always be bringing new people in. So we're looking at sort of those pieces of data. So that's a bit more long term, but we tend to be, I think shorter term. We're not saying, hey, this person today is worth a million dollars tomorrow. But I think intuitively we have to have that in our cycle in order to continue to be successful.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

So as the most prominent manufacturer case pack water, I have to imagine that sustainability is a topic that you deal with constantly. So my question to you is what does sustainability actually mean to you and how do you practice it out? Yeah.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

So it's not only a topic, but it is actually at our core of what we do, we have several pillars that we look at. One of them is our resources and making sure we're managing our resources because we source from springs, Our water is sourced from springs. It is sourced from places where consumers aren't getting their water and it allows us to bring spring water to consumers at a place where they couldn't get it. Circular packaging. So half of our business is in five gallon. So that's a reusable, recycled way of getting water that is not just case back anymore. That's a big part of what we're doing, how we activate in our community. And if you think about how local we are. So our carbon footprint's a whole lot lower than some of the waters that are coming over from over the ocean into the US and we're local. So not only is it truly local, but you're sitting in and you're producing your water in Maine. You're producing your water there and then you're shipping it from there. California has its water produced there. So there are tenants of what we're trying to do. Carbon footprint recyclability. And also we commit to having. Right now it's 35% of our bottles are in recycled plastic, which is more expensive than doing virgin plastic. And then we're looking at things like how do we get more states to have bottle bills to, to get more returns. We're also doing ocean cleanup. We're doing 1% for the planet on our aluminum bottles. So it really is ingrained in our north star of for us to be successful As a company, healthy hydration for consumers everywhere at any point in time in a format that they want. It is at our core, but doing it sustainably, otherwise we won't be here in 10 years. Right. And so it really is at the center of the decisions that we make from a business standpoint as well.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Well said.

[Peter V. S Bond]

So I'm going to wrap this up with a hot round for you guys. Same question for each of you. We're in a festival. There's many themes that are emerging. Surely there must be one trend that kind of surpasses.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

What are you going to take back? What's your hot take from.

[Peter V. S Bond]

What's your hot take? David, I hate to say this, but.

[David Demuth]

You know, AI is, is. It's a part of every conversation. And I think, you know, from my own perspective, I've been a little bit resistant just because, you know, we're in a human business and creativity is a human endeavor, I think. But one of the things I've been inspired by is how we can use AI to enhance and scale creativity. And I think that's going to be, you know, that's going to be the theme of the next few years, at least from a creative agency standpoint. Point is, how do we use AI to enhance that creativity and scale it in really sort of personalized and acutely relevant ways? For consumers.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Today, though, is that still good talk or is it already here?

[David Demuth]

Personally, I think it's. In most cases, it's a lot of talk right now, and I don't think marketers are feeling even the tip of the iceberg of the impact of it yet. But I do think it's going to come and it's going to come really fast.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Tsunami.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Yeah. Yeah. The thing I will say, which, as you walk down the street and you kind of take everything in, there's a lot of noise. There's a lot of noise, there's a lot of information. Consumers now are overwhelmed, and I wonder if there's going to be a bit of a backlash and a desire for less distraction and less noise. And I think it's interesting, the role. I mean, people are talking about going back to BlackBerry's and flip phones so that they have the core of what they need. I need my email and I need my phone, but I don't need anything else. I don't need pictures and videos and everything everywhere I go. And so how, as brands, can we actually enable and unlock some of that? Is it. Is it a simplification of messaging? Is it a. It's not about flash. Flash Flash. But it's going to be about a blue screen and it's just Saratoga. I don't, I don't, I'm, I'm making that up. But in a world of noise and images, how do we streamline and just take things back? And I wonder how consumers are going to look for companies to do that.

[David Demuth]

I'll give you one more because I have another one that's on the complete opposite end of AI and I think this festival is tangible proof of it is just live experience experiences and the power marketing. Just if you could, next year I'll get you guys into Stagwell's Fort Beach.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

We got our in careful what you offer.

[David Demuth]

There was a line of 300 people trying now Ryan Reynolds was there but, but still these live experience and just the, the humans connecting with humans and brand partnerships and athletes and, and creators and media, you know, it's kind of the other end of the spectrum of AI. And I think, I think we're going to see that continue to ramp because I think there's a real insatiable desire that people have to experience something together.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

You know, just here in Canon, the beach. I think five years ago if you were walking along, you didn't see all these retail publishers. Now it's just littered with them, cabana after cabana. And then as the retail media wave changes and you start to consolidate, you start to see, okay, maybe retailers are going to focus on owned and operated and let the upper funnel go to coalitions. Because does it really make sense for a small regional retailer to be trying to sell upper funnel programmatic and streaming TV to a brand? Because it takes you just as much effort to out to execute on their platform as it does to those big people out in Seattle. And where are you going to spend your time? Where the juice is not worth the squeeze. Five years from now to the point the noise, it could be something completely different. So there's a lot of things changing.

[Peter V. S Bond]

So let me remind our listeners, you can find all of our content by simply going to a web Browser and typing cpguys.com as the URL. If you or someone you know has something to contribute to this ongoing discussion on the CPG guys, please do email [e-mail] to our audience. Thank you for the clicks, likes, comments, DMs, meeting with us at trade shows, coming to our events, recording episodes with us, and of course to our sponsors. We are always grateful for you. The show doesn't exist without all of you. You work with us all year. We're grateful to have you as both our audience and partners. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. David Kerry, thank you for appearing on the CPG guys today and having an excellent discussion on true brand building.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Yeah, no, thanks for having us. You know, great brands, great partners. I couldn't ask for anything more.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Peter.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Yes, right.

[Peter V. S Bond]

I think this is our last recording for the week.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

I think. I think we need to pack, get the airport, and you get to fly home. I fly. I. I fly home and then I unpack, repack from my wife and daughter and then fly back to France, go to Paris for a week.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

There you go.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Yeah, because they, you know, they don't get upgraded if they're not.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

I was wondering why fly all the way?

[Peter V. S Bond]

Always a trick.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

I said, I said to my wife, you understand, I'm going to have to fly all the way back. I like that.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Sounds good.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

That's okay.

[Peter V. S Bond]

I hope they're listening to this podcast.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

Can I pre order my My Cuisine on the in in the business class? Yes.

[Peter V. S Bond]

Hey, that's a wrap of this episode of the CPG Guys.

[Carrie Holland Tillman]

Foreign.

[Shree Rajagopalan]

The content in this podcast episode is provided for general informational purposes only. By listening to our episode, you understand that no information contained in this episode should be construed as advice from CPG Guys, LLC or the individual author, hosts, or guests, nor is it intended to be a substitute for research on any subject matter. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by CPGuys LLC. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. The views expressed by CPTGuys LLC do not represent the views of their employers or the entity they represent. CPT Guys LLC expressly disclaims any and all liability or responsibility for any direct, indirect, incidental, special, consequential, or other damages arising out of any individual's use of or reference to or inability to use this podcast or the information we present in this podcast.