LIVE from Groceryshop '25 with tcc's Rick Swinkels

Summary

Podcast Summary: The CPG Guys – LIVE from Groceryshop '25 with TCC's Rick Swinkels

Date: October 18, 2025
Hosts: Peter V.S. Bond & Sri Rajagopalan (CPG Guys) with guest Rick Swinkels (CEO, TCC Global)
Special Co-Host: Daniel Torres Dwyer (FMCG Guys)
Event: Recorded live at Groceryshop ‘25

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Overview

This crossover episode brings together leaders from both the CPG Guys and FMCG Guys podcasts for a candid discussion with Rick Swinkels, CEO of TCC Global. The conversation centers on the evolving landscape of grocery & retail, exploring how shopper behavior, loyalty, and technology—particularly AI—are redefining the relationship between retailers, brands, and consumers. The episode addresses loyalty strategies, the challenges of retail media monetization, the rise of private labels, and the emotional connection that retailers must foster as the industry accelerates amid economic and digital changes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shifting Retail & Shopper Landscape

• Acceleration of Trends ([04:11])
  • Shopper behavior changes discussed last year (value-seeking, promiscuous loyalty, increased choice) have intensified.
  • “Shoppers have more choice than ever, they have smaller budgets than ever, they have higher demands than ever, and they have more means to literally go for what they want.” – Rick Swinkels ([05:16])
• Promiscuous Loyalty and Budget Pressure
  • Increasingly rational, budget-conscious shoppers are actively shopping around multiple retailers for the best value ([04:51]).
  • Even loyal customers are splitting their spend between more stores.

2. Private Label Growth and Value Proposition

• Private Label: Quality & Loyalty ([08:05], [09:09])
  • The price gap between branded and private label products has widened, leading to substantial growth in store brands.
  • “Private label products … are loyalty drivers. … The price difference between private label products and branded products has grown.” — Rick Swinkels ([08:39])
• Influencer & UGC Impact ([11:35])
  • Influencers and user-generated content now validate private label quality, erasing old perceptions and driving trial ([12:00]).

3. Retailer and Brand Challenges

• Promotions Undermining Loyalty ([09:22])
  • National brands’ reliance on promotions promotes disloyalty: “What promotions do in many cases … is promote disloyalty.” — Rick Swinkels ([09:22])
• Volume Decline and Shopper Share ([18:04], [19:06])
  • Even with more visitors, total store sales can decline if top shoppers spend less (“Your best shoppers are spending less with you. And that is really a trend that's very difficult to change.” – Rick Swinkels [18:45]).

4. Loyalty Programs and TCC’s Approach

• TCC Global’s Elevator Pitch ([15:24])
  • “We may be the biggest marketing company that you've never heard of.” — Rick Swinkels ([15:24])
  • Delivers sales uplift (3–5% total store)—not by category—through campaigns that reward specific shopper behaviors with physical rewards ([16:34]).
  • “Physical reward is the most effective loyalty tool in the market.” — Rick Swinkels ([17:02])

5. Evolving Role of Retail Media

• Media Monetization Limitations ([21:28])
  • Most retail media spend goes to major players; for smaller retailers, it doesn’t move the needle ([21:50]).
  • “Building loyalty … is a worthwhile investment, isn’t it?” — Peter V.S. Bond ([22:09])
• Media vs. Experiential Loyalty
  • Overfocus on media monetization sometimes hurts the shopper experience ([22:21]): “If you go too far on media monetization, it can interfere with the right shopping experience.” — Rick Swinkels ([22:21])
  • Alignment and integration across teams (media, marketing, merchandising) is often lacking, creating internal friction ([27:01]).

6. Personalization and AI

• AI’s New Frontier ([20:08])
  • “With AI, it's going very fast that retailers can … make [personalization] personal.” — Rick Swinkels ([20:08])
• The Limits and Potential of Automation
  • AI has moved from hype to tangible backend benefits (forecasting, pricing, etc.), but risks losing emotional connection ([40:40]).
  • “A danger is that you sort of lose that emotional connection in stores.” — Rick Swinkels ([41:43])

7. Paid Subscriptions – The Next Big Loyalty Trend

• Emerging Model ([44:19])
  • Predicts that paid subscriptions (like Costco/Thrive Market) will spread, offering premium experience, exclusive offers, and delivery benefits ([45:07]).
  • “If a shopper goes into a paid membership, it means that the shopper is really valuing what you stand for and is committing.” — Rick Swinkels ([46:12])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“Shoppers have more choice than ever, they have smaller budgets than ever, they have higher demands than ever, and they have more means to literally go for what they want.”
— Rick Swinkels ([05:16])

“Private label products ... are loyalty drivers. ... The price difference between private label products and branded products has grown.”
— Rick Swinkels ([08:39])

“What promotions do in many cases ... is promote disloyalty.”
— Rick Swinkels ([09:22])

“We may be the biggest marketing company that you've never heard of.”
— Rick Swinkels ([15:24])

“Building loyalty … is a worthwhile investment, isn’t it?”
— Peter V.S. Bond ([22:09])

“If you go too far on media monetization, it can interfere with the right shopping experience.”
— Rick Swinkels ([22:21])

“A danger is that you sort of lose that emotional connection in stores.”
— Rick Swinkels ([41:43])

“If a shopper goes into a paid membership, it means that the shopper is really valuing what you stand for and is committing.”
— Rick Swinkels ([46:12])

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Key Timestamps

• 04:11—06:52: Shifts in shopper behavior and loyalty
• 08:02—09:09: Private label acceleration and value proposition
• 15:24—17:38: TCC Global’s model and loyalty campaign impact
• 21:28—22:21: Media monetization critique and pivot to loyalty
• 27:01—27:55: Retailer organizational challenges
• 32:53—34:48: Trust, mission-driven retail, and brand alignment
• 44:19—45:07: Paid memberships as the next loyalty wave
• 49:48—51:08: Looking ahead—retail’s future, experience, and loyalty

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is energetic, collaborative, and global in perspective, with humorous and candid banter. Rick Swinkels emphasizes both strategic vision and hard-won lessons (“I wanted people to buy more Pampers ... I started receiving first complaints ... it hit me ... some people, when they get older, get problems with their teeth ... I was sending them discounts on Pampers.” - [24:21]), showing that the quest for the perfect loyalty program is both art and science.

Core Message: In a world of rapidly evolving retail technology, shopper value orientation, and competitive pressures, those retailers who shape authentic, trust-based relationships—rooted in real understanding and differentiated value propositions—will outpace those who over-rely on media or discount tactics. The future belongs to those who master both personalization (via AI and digital tools) and the emotional dimension of loyalty—especially through innovative models like paid subscriptions.

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Summary for New Listeners

If you haven’t listened to this episode, you’ll get a comprehensive state-of-the-industry analysis on retail loyalty: how shoppers’ expectations and behaviors have changed, why private label is surging, how technology both helps and hinders loyalty-building, and what best-in-class retailers are getting right—grounded in stories from both sides of the Atlantic. Rick Swinkels pulls back the curtain on TCC’s impact, offers real-world data, and advocates for a more human-centric, trust-based approach to retail.

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For more, check out the full episode or visit CPG Guys website.

Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome to the CPG Guys podcast.

[B]

Set at the intersection of commerce and tech, your hosts, Sree Rajagopalan and Peter V. S. Vaughn, explore how brands and.

[C]

Retailers engage consumers in a digitally driven world.

[B]

And now, here are the CPG Guys. Hello, and welcome to a very special crossover episode of the CPG Guys. And wait for it, the FMCG Guys. Hello, I am your CPG Guys co host, the indefatigable pvsp. And I am joined by my dear friend, my compadre, my brother from another mother from across the pond. Of course I'm talking about the co host of the FMCG Guys, Daniel Torres Dwyer. Daniel, how you doing, man?

[D]

I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I'm know when, whenever we start recording one of these, I'm like, why don't we do more of these? Like, it's so much fun.

[B]

I know. Maybe I just don't want to do them with you.

[D]

Yeah, that's probably the case. I get very excited.

[B]

I know he's like, peter, I want to spend more time with you, but the fact that we're here together, it's amazing when I think about it, when we started doing, when you launched your podcast two years after, after we launched ours, I mean, we talked on Zoom, basically, but it wasn't like we were together. And then I think the first time was probably the first Shop Talk Europe where I got to see you. And now it seems like we're at all these events together. And I love it because it's a good chance for us to compare notes to create a more global community around our conversations about brands and retailers, engage consumers about leadership. And Shree and I are so particularly impressed with how much you are growing the audience of the FMCG guys. So much so that we're, we're kind of feeling like you're catching up real quick. This is getting us a little nervous.

[D]

We have a little competition of our LinkedIn followers.

[B]

I know they're getting very close.

[E]

I'm.

[B]

I'm a sri. We gotta supercharge our, our followership because, I don't know, Daniel, maybe we're. We're moving to South America. Stay away from them.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That's our territory.

[D]

Okay. America's.

[B]

No, there you go.

[D]

It's saying it just before I go to Mexico to record some episodes.

[B]

Exactly why you're not allowed to go. You have to clear all transatlantic trip through cpg.

[D]

Let's see about that. But today we have a European guest.

[B]

So here's a great Thing, Daniel. So we're doing this. We did a crossover episode last year in October at the Grocery Shop conference. This is the sister to the Shop Talk events and it's focused on the grocery industry. And last year, the episode centered around a guest, the CEO of TCC Global, Rick Spinkles. Right. And we thought if you and I are getting the band back together. It's not a band unless we get the entire band back together. So we are so pleased to welcome back to the podcast CEO of TCC Global, Rick Spinkles. Rick, how are you?

[A]

Welcome.

[C]

I'm good, I'm good. I'm very happy to be here again. And your pronunciation of my name is much better.

[B]

Well, it's the whole Dutch. It's the Van Sicklen. I know, I know. That's why I get it. And I'm really jealous because Daniel has also added to his podcast he works with a group called the Women in Retail Media Collective, founded by two women, Ana Laura Zane, who's from Barcelona, but I mean from Lisbon. From Lisbon. She lives in Lisbon. She is from. But also Emma Helsfut, who is in Amsterdam, who's also my. My Dutch sister from another Mr. So the Dutch connections. We're taking over the world, Daniel. We're taking over the world somehow.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Well, we're really great. So let's start with something very simple. We met a year ago. We talked a lot about around what TCC Global is doing for its retail partners. Bring us up to speed. What's changed in the last year? What's new? I mean, I could throw out immediately. There's not a. I promise you there is not a presentation going on at grocery shop that doesn't at some point in the conversation, bring up those two letters, AI, Tell me what's going on.

[E]

What's changed?

[B]

What's happening with you?

[C]

Well, of course that's AI, but I think what's changed. A lot of things have gone just more faster. I would say complicated, maybe. Last year we were talking already about the change of shopper behavior. There's more value shoppers looking for value. There's more pressure on their personal economy, so how much money they can spend. Shoppers are more promiscuous. So you literally see, I love that term when you talk about loyalty and then promiscuous. No, but it is. You do see that shoppers are shopping around literally.

[B]

If you're trying to squeeze more out of your budget in what is still inflationary times, you're going to start making rational decisions about the products you Buy and where you can fit what you need into the budget that you have available to you.

[C]

Yes, yeah, true. But to answer your question, so what's changing? I mean, shoppers have more choice than ever.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

They have so smaller budgets than ever, they have higher demands than ever, and they have more means to, to literally go for what they want. Okay, so, and that is not really new, but what, what's happening in the past year is sort of accelerating across all of these dimensions and that is creating like completely new rules of the game. And, and we also spoke about it last year. I mean, I am incredibly passionate about retail, but it has never, never been more fascinating, this fight for shopper and shopper loyalty is more prominent than ever before.

[D]

Could it be said that everything that could go wrong has gone wrong and that things are more difficult than ever for retailers? You said more picky, less loyal, less money.

[C]

I think it's really more to the core. And that sounds a bit strange because if you really look at where retail came from, it came from knowing your shoppers being local, being close to your shoppers and really offering that phenomenal experience. And then it shifted into more mass scale, focused on the average shopper and mass distribution and everything. But the average shopper doesn't exist yet. An entire industry was built on it. And right now, if you're a really good retailer, there are a few retailers that simply do a few things very right and they gain market share.

[B]

So you work with retailers, they are the closest to the consumer, much more so than the brands that are selling through them. So what are you hearing from them? What's on their mind? What are their conversations like from an in store perspective? From a loyalty experience, what's really got their attention? Particularly the ones you said that are doing it right?

[C]

Yeah, that's a nice question. Well, first of all, we work with leading retailers across the globe. And I always thought being a retailer before, that the situation I was in was pretty particular. Right. I mean, I was talking to some, some, some people that were visiting other countries and then they said, yeah, it's different is there? And it's different there. And I said, well, maybe, but I'm really, my situation is unique. What's, what's quite, what surprises me is how common some of the themes are across the globe. So whether we work with, with large retailers in Europe or even here in the us, you pretty much see certain themes coming back now, for instance, value and value. It's not only price, but it's literally what do you stand for as a retailer?

[B]

Can be value, quality can be value.

[C]

Yeah. But if you really look at price, there's something that happened over the past few years and that comes from inflation. But you see an enormous shift from branded products into private label. One of the reasons is that of course a lot of retailers use private labels more as to build loyalty.

[B]

They have improved the quality and they carry many private brands within their portfolio. It's not just the old no name blank box, it's quality product.

[C]

They are loyalty drivers. I mean, it can be the ingredients, it can be the quality, it can be the price, it can be the packaging, it can be the offering as a whole. So every retailer does that in their own way. But what is happening, happening across the globe is that the price difference between private label products and branded products has grown.

[B]

Like the difference. National brands took price extensively during the pandemic.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And that created a huge delta between the private brands and the national brands.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And consumers are now making rational decisions is what you're saying. Yes, about. I'm willing to consider private brands because of how to some degree unattainable national brands can be.

[C]

Yeah, correct. And there's something more happening. Branded products are leaning more into promotion and in fact what promotions do in many cases, not in all, but in many cases they promote disloyalty. Right. So what you see is because branded products become more expensive, CPGs rely more on promotions, but that in itself creates loyal shoppers to these brands to shop around.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

Yeah, it's very interesting.

[B]

It has the opposite effect.

[C]

Yes, it has the opposite effect, but it sort of accelerates this shopping around in general. So you see the growth of private label products in general, you see the focus on value. To just explain it a bit more, if you look at the amount of money that families spend of their disposable income on food, their share of wallet. Their share of wallet and how much that has changed. So in Europe it's gone from 11 to 14%, in the UK from 13 to 25 and in the US from 13 to 17%. And I'm talking about averages. But in low income households these percentages have gone up even more interesting. Yeah, so, but, but, but what I really want to stress is that it's not about price and income. It's like food is everywhere. Shopper demands are much higher than ever. And also preferences, I mean you probably have developed some, some personal preferences on, on, on, on, on dietary products that, that, that you weren't aware of like 10 years ago. And that's pretty common. So you do see that there's more choice, there's more focus on value, there's more opportunities for shoppers to shop around, and all of that is now coming together.

[B]

I'd also argue that the rise of influencers and what in effect is user generated content. Right. Is now show, particularly for private brands. Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

The, the question that was always the obstruction around private brands was the quality issue. You now have influencers, everyday shoppers who can talk about products that they like.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Emphasize that and that's enough. That gets a consumer to actually try a private brand. And once they've tried it and they find that the quality is as good or better, then the price kicks in. They're like, why am I paying all this money for a national brand when I can get just as good or an even better product? I mean, in the US that's the entire concept behind a retailer like Trader Joe's or to a large degree around Lidl and Aldi.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

But for instance, also here in the US Aldi launching their private label brand under the Aldi brand shows something, it tells something. And what it, what it tells to me is that like maybe 10 or 20 years ago a lot of people that went into discount stores were sort of ashamed for it. Like. Right. That's also why a lot of these discounts, they build strong brands, impressive brands and people didn't know they were from the, from, from a discounter. But right now it's pretty cool to have an Aldi product on your table. Yeah. I mean, and that is, that is so different.

[B]

Yeah. It connotes that you're getting quality.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

But you're also very, you make good decisions with your money, you get really good products and you don't spend a lot of money that you needlessly need to. So.

[E]

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[D]

It's interesting because if that becomes like the desirability for retailers for supermarkets to go there, fmcg, CPG brands have an issue.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

So by the way, in case somebody didn't tune into the podcast last year, which by the way we live in the show notes and so on, could you tell us a bit about like a one line or maybe two lines or tcc and then I'll be interested to hear on what you've worked on recently as well.

[C]

Yeah, that's a good, yeah, it's good that you say one or two lines.

[B]

Because the classic elevator pitch. Right.

[C]

Well, well let me say it like this. We may be the biggest marketing company that you've never heard of.

[B]

There you go.

[C]

What we do, we sell loyalty solutions predominantly to food retailers. We do that across the globe. And what makes us unique is we reward specific behavior that really help retailers to increase their performance. This can be growth of private label, but it can in general, the campaigns we develop generate sales uplift of between 3 and 5% total, total store. Okay, so not category, not product, total store. What we do is we reward specific behavior by making physical rewards available to shoppers. And there's something, if people know what we do, then then they, they look at us and they say, yeah, I, you do these campaigns where people can get free cutlery or cookware or knives or whatever. And yes, that's what we do.

[B]

That's a tool to.

[C]

Exactly. We sell impact, we sell change in behavior. And the way to do that is by making physical rewards available. It's a big nuance that physical reward.

[D]

If you can tell us an example.

[C]

It can be, it can be whatever it can be. It's mostly it's focused around food. So it can, it can be, but it's always high quality items that shoppers.

[B]

Very good cutlery, very good pots and pans, very everything that's just.

[C]

And we are, we are a full service provider. So we simply, we simply help the retailer to launch campaigns like that. And these campaigns drive change shopper behavior over a longer period of time. And by rewarding shoppers to, to, to spend more or to, to, to visit the retailer more often, they can save for free items. And it is, and it, it, it works. It is the most Effective loyalty tool in the market.

[B]

Phenomenal.

[C]

I mean, 3 to 5% sales increase. It sounds, it sounds like dealing. It is. I, I don't know.

[B]

Food manufacturer, the, on the CPG side, they're seeing an enormous amount of volume decline across the board.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

They took all that price. They're seeing pressures there.

[C]

But we, we also had that today. There were, there were, and I won't, I won't mention the names, but there were retailers.

[B]

We won't tell. You can just whisper into the mic.

[C]

There was a particular, a large retailer that was, that was sharing in the US he was saying we have more carded sales than ever, yet our total sales are going down. And that is exactly proving what I was just talking about. So you have more shoppers, they are shopping around more. So it sounds, sounds really good, right. To get more shoppers. But if the total amount is going down, it simply means that your best shoppers are spending less with you. And that is, that is really a trend that's, that is very difficult to change.

[B]

I think most grocery retailers, and you probably bear this out in the data, you see that even among say your most loyal shoppers.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Say the top 5% based upon trips and dollar spend, still spend a very significant double digit percentage of their share of wallet on products that your retailer sells at other retailers.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

So there's more. Even what you're telling me is there's even more pressure and they are shopping more places in order to address the value as they see it that they're seeking for their families.

[C]

Jack Sinclair, CEO of Sprouts, was also talking about this very recently. He was saying that we like to be close to others because we want to sort of steal a little bit of that basket that they are spending somewhere else. But I've also seen this in my, in my own experience. The most loyal shoppers, when they start like buying specific products like categories at, at other retailers and then they sort of experience the quality or they like the experience, the shopping experience, they start spending more and more. So it starts little, but it becomes big, pretty, pretty fast.

[B]

If you deliver an experience that they like, they're willing to start trying to expand their consumption. Say, I'm doing it over there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Let me see if I like it over here.

[C]

Yeah. And to. I'm sorry, Peter, I'm coming back to one of your questions, but what is, what is different to this year for me is, and I'm very happy about this, is that it is less, a little bit less about media monetization, but it's a lot more about loyalty, shopping experience and shopping behavior. And so it becomes. And it's also not that much about data and digital and all of it. It's like, of course they are important ingredients, they are levers, but it is like about the bigger thing. And that's why I'm fascinated about what's happening. But also on AI, for instance, it helps retailers to. For the first time, we've been talking about personalization for so long, like 10, 20 years ago. And I, I myself as well, I, we, we, we launched loyalty schemes, we built data solutions, we tracked loyalty. But. And then you, you had only limited means to really make it personal. But right now with AI, it's going very fast that retailers can, can do that. And yeah, I think that's, that, that's very fascinating.

[B]

I loved what you talked about. The, the, the, I don't know false hopes are, but I would say overblown hopes around media monetization. For every retail in the U.S. we have to remember that 85 cents of every dollar spent on retail media, at least in the United States, goes to two places. Seattle and northwest Arkansas.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Right. And then if you now add Cincinnati and Boise and maybe Minneapolis, right now we're up to more than 90%. Okay. That means everybody else is chasing less than the 110 RMNs are chasing. 9%.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Or 9 cents a dollar. That's not really promising loyalty. Building loyalty and getting consumers who are already shopping your stores to spend more at your store is a worthwhile investment, isn't it?

[C]

It is. It is. And it's also something that I worry about, to be honest, because I believe that if you go too far on media monetization, it can interfere with the right shopping experience.

[E]

Sure.

[C]

I will tell one example and it's like where I really thought to be doing the right thing and actually I did completely the wrong thing. And it's.

[B]

I do that almost every day.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, me too.

[B]

I never do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, you're perfect.

[C]

But at least you're now providing the stage for me to talk about. Feels like a relief, actually.

[B]

Okay, no, tell your, tell your therapist we're here.

[C]

I'll tell you the story. So I was, I'm back in my, in my retail shoes and I wanted, I had this brilliant, literally brilliant idea. I wanted people to buy more pampas.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And like parents, of course. And so I, but I was looking at my database and I could only find a limited number of people buying pampas. But then I looked at the category of baby food. So apparently there were people, and that was also a problem. They were buying pampas in health and beauty care stores and other stores.

[B]

Other stores.

[C]

But we had a very high share in baby food.

[B]

So I thought, well, you have a right to win.

[C]

I have a right to win. Let's send a huge discount, let's say personal mail, personal offer to all people buying baby food. So. And I was like, it really felt like a huge relief because I could like triple the amount of shoppers that I, that I could target. So I did. But after a few days, I started receiving first complaints like, why do you, why do you. I really feel offended that you sent me discounts on pampas. I said, yeah, because you buy baby food. And then it hit me. There were a lot of elderly people that were. Yeah, I see there's a surprise.

[B]

With dental issues.

[C]

Yes, with dental issues. So it was at that moment that I realized that some people when they get older, they get problems with their teeth and they had like, how you.

[B]

Call that strained food is very easy.

[C]

For people, dental issues to consume food because they couldn't eat the normal food. So. And I was sending them discounts on pampas. Well, they didn't need. It's. It, it is, it is an example of how you. How like throwing an offer into. And it's also to, to, to right now. If, for instance, if you want to live a truly healthy lifestyle.

[B]

You'Re looking.

[C]

For solutions to live healthier lives, media monetization can help there. I mean, if you provide the right content and it helps me to live a healthier life, I'm all in. I can't get enough of it. But the moments when I want to live a healthy lifestyle and then I'm receiving offers of not healthy food, it is in your face. And that's like when. That's when you really don't feel understood.

[B]

You share data with the retailer, you identify yourself, they understand who you're buying. They want to know that the experience that they have in shopping with you is truly relevant, that you understand who they are. And so when you use the data to make an erroneous interpretation of who they are and what they buy, and it reflects in the offer you give them. Yeah, it puts them off. Yeah, it actually thinks.

[C]

It does. It does. And I think with AI, for instance, this mass personalization, the personalization at mass scale becomes finally within reach for those retailers that do it well. And that's where I sometimes feel that some retailers, not all, but some, go way, they rely way too much on media monetization. As if it will save the game. Not at all. Really. Not at all. Yes, there are, that's also. So we, as I said, that's the beauty of our role as a company. We really. It's very strategic topics that our clients engage us in. So we talk about this, of course, but you also hear that for instance, sometimes the people that do media monetization, they are separate teams, they're almost isolated from. Oh, they are, they are. And that's, that is, that is I think a dangerous.

[B]

And they're not always aligned.

[C]

No.

[B]

With what the merchants are trying to do. In fact, sometimes it's very competitive.

[C]

Yes. Or what the marketeers wants to do or what the CEO wants to achieve.

[D]

Or the local store manager wants to sometimes some promoting.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

X brand and the other side is promoting the competitor and stuff like that.

[C]

The shopper notices everything.

[D]

Yeah, they do.

[C]

So that's sort of that and yeah, I think that is, that that's a clear challenge that a lot of retailers are dealing with. On, on the other hand too, I mean it's sort of, for a lot of retailers, it is an incredibly appealing piece of their business. I mean it's, it's highly profitable. So. And it's not, it's not. I think if you use it well, it can also create the right customer experience or shopping experience. I just see a lot of examples where that's not happening.

[D]

I think it's like a bit like inflation where brands were relying on inflation exclusively to grow their business. Yeah, I think that retail media was a bit supposed to like just all the growth would come from there. No, and since the brands also bought into it, it felt like. Yeah, but have you seen like in conversations with other retailers that there is like a change of like mindset towards like loyalty and. Yeah, and even like when you talk about loyalty they're like, oh yeah, that's what we need more than a year ago, for example.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So for us, like I said, it's a very strategic decision. So when retailers work with us and yes, we develop unique campaigns for them, but we try to see ourselves not as a loyalty campaign partner. We are really a partner in loyalty in general. And that's why these conversations are strategic. So sometimes it's about the role of the store, sometimes it's about to reward specific behavior. And what I find fascinating about the industry that I work in, it has never been more relevant. So where we come from improving traffic to store right now, it is on influencing the total shopper trip across any channel in any way. That's most profitable or most smart to do in that specific situation. For instance, it can still be about driving total growing, total basket size, but it can also be getting more people into a, into a loyalty scheme or into a paid membership. So you see a lot of changes. For instance, it can also be. We can. The example you were talking about, influencers. We have developed tools to turn millions of shoppers into influencers and reward that behavior so we can reward behavior across social media channels in ways no one else can, can do.

[D]

So how, how is that working? Is that something that you're doing currently?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, that is. So, so the, the beauty of, of. Because we work with all of these retailers across the globe, we have invested like serious amounts of money into our data and digital capabilities. And those tools have one thing in common that you can easily plug them in into the retailer environment much easier than any other digital solution because that's our DNA. And for instance, we, we, we, we noticed that in a lot of these conversations that retailers were looking for, well, we have our shoppers and they buy our products, but we don't really know what's happening afterwards. And that's, that's so they know what's in a basket. And of course they have interviews and all of that. So it's not that they don't know anything. But on social media, shoppers actually, when they are really happy about something, they talk about it and they engage with. Some retailers were looking for ways to sort of reward that behavior. And we developed a solution which we call Loyalty Quest, where we can reward shoppers, for instance, taking a picture of that meal they made and posting it.

[B]

Online with the products that they bought at that store.

[C]

Yeah. And what I find the beauty of it is that yes, you can on one hand you see the data, but on the other end, which is the shopping list, and then you see what actually shoppers do.

[B]

That's the outcome.

[C]

Yeah, that's the outcome. So what I always also say is like data shows the, the correlation, but not the motivation. And through these tools, we can really turn millions of shoppers into loyalty activists or to share their experiences or to reach out to others. And, and, and yeah, sort of amplify whatever the message is the retailer wants to send across. And it's also something that also not only retailers are showing interest for, but also a lot of CPG companies are using those tools right now.

[D]

Okay. So I mean, ultimately, do you think that retailers that, who get loyalty.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Will ultimately perform better in the long term? I mean, I think that you're pretty clear. Yeah, well, I remember last year you were very bullish about it in a difficult context.

[C]

Right.

[D]

When everybody was talking media. Is are we to agree that now maybe the retailers see more that while we still like, I don't know, is it still like a journey?

[B]

Are they, are they truly realizing the loyalty opportunity is a better play than just trying to rely on the promise of a high margin media, pardon me, monetization project that as I kind of mentioned isn't really coming to fruition for most of them that are in the marketplace.

[C]

True. It's also a matter of trust. So what you see is that retailers that have started their business following a certain philosophy, whether this is value, service, health, the ones that stick really close to that mission are the ones that are most successful. And for instance, high service supermarkets that start to communicate that they are cheap but they don't reiterate how high their services and they don't make shoppers really experience that. Those are the ones that are losing shares. However, high service supermarkets that continue to do innovation, that continue to offer unique experiences are the ones that even in an economy where shoppers are looking for value, keep growing.

[D]

It's interesting. This reminds me of like when we talk about brand market marketing. You know, there's been this whole discussion about performance marketing versus brand building and that for example Nike was over investing in performance marketing and kind of forgot the core meaning of their brand and what it means and like that emotion that they always transmitted on the connection as well. I think that really translates in what you're saying. I mean you're saying it more in like a hard retail way. But I think it's the same thing. It's like, yeah, sticking to like your mission and your North Star and then doing like a loyalty program based on that. Not like looking for an opportunistic thing.

[C]

Yeah. And let's look, look at here in the US Costco.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Superstar. Right?

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

They continue to follow that loyalty strategy that has made them successful. Walmart completely like it's, it's another example of a highly successful retailer.

[B]

Part of their mission. I'm going to be in everyday low cost.

[C]

And I was, I was, I was, I was inspired by Thrive for instance. Thrive Market. Yes. Where do they come from? They come from making healthy or like organic foods available to shoppers that, that are really interested in this.

[B]

Available and affordable to shoppers.

[C]

Available and affordable. And they are using unique models to do so. And they are also into this paid subscription model which I believe in very much.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Sprout supermarkets. Yes, similar example.

[B]

Jack Sinclair.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's. And they keep growing because they stick very closely to that mission and that's sort of where the trade off comes from. And they don't they, how shall I say, it's not that they do exactly the same what they were doing one or two years ago, but they constantly try to offer more value. But value is not price. But it's like, it can be.

[D]

It's like value proposition.

[C]

Yes, it's the value prop.

[B]

So I guess this begs the question of looking at all these examples you gave. Can you, can you maybe address this in a summary of what should the relationship between shoppers and retailers really look like to drive success? Happiness for the shoppers and success for the retailers?

[C]

Yeah. So it's always about trust. It starts with trust. That's also the role of food retail. Shoppers don't go to a store to buy a banana. I mean a store sells bananas and in most stores they're more sold item. But the true reason why shoppers go to a certain store is because it matches their needs. It fulfills the needs of their daily lives and they make very conscious decisions. So the shoppers, the retailers that, that really build trust in a certain way are the ones I think that, well, that, that are closer that if you feel trust from, from, from a food retailer you. The relationship can get closer. The role of the, of the in store experience, the role of still 85% of all sales store, it doesn't. But the shopper journey is across all channels. So online is incredibly important. But the experience, the, the, the image, the reputation, what you stand for is built still in store. So and that's also why for instance store staff plays an incredibly important role.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And that is it. That is a challenge because food retailers are, are reducing the, they need to reduce the total cost. That's not new. But labor for instance. And having the right store staff is still a big game changer.

[D]

And you mentioned what the relationship should be like. How do you think what a critical eye it is right now? Like what's wrong?

[C]

I think it becomes too transactional and I think retailers need to add a more personal dimension to it. And that's also where we come in. Of course we offer unique solutions to say thank you. We offer an emotional layer to a financial transaction, so to say. And that is if you, after, if you reward specific behavior and you say thank you in a very unique way it does something to a shopper and it's like creating small habits that Sort of turn into something bigger. And it's that emotional layer that I believe makes all the difference.

[B]

Does that mean that all of our emphasis on technology and AI is to a degree, antithetical to the human touch, or can they work in harmony?

[C]

Well, the thing I. We always talk about AI in retail and what it does, but a lot of people don't take into consideration what AI can mean for shoppers. And it's already having a huge impact. For instance, recipe inspiration. AI plays a massive role. So what I think is AI right now. And you also saw that in grocery shop, it's used very much as sort of in the back end to optimize forecasting, to optimize pricing, to optimize logistical streams. And that also helps into a much better shopping experience in store. Yes, you see electronic shelf tags. So you do see some of that. But AI plays a role, more role into the back end right now. At least that's my experience talking to these retailers than in store itself.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Do you think, like one thing that has come up in conversations that I've had is like, as AI is winning like a space in our lives, do you think that sometimes we're over relying on data and AI, and especially you who speak with leaders, they talk about division that they have. Do you think that sometimes they lack some critical thinking and more like the. Yeah. Gut feel, if you like intuition. I don't know.

[C]

Yes. I think what AI enables is that it can bring local economies closer. So it can, through AI. For instance, large retailers can have local grocers take that, they include them in their assortment. And that is, for instance, something that's a great benefit for, for shoppers because all of a sudden. So that is what I see. But I, I think it's a huge danger that. And that's also with media monetization in general. If you, if you start the human touch, the emotional connection, the moment that's gone, you take away the. The thing that, that separates foods from pretty much every.

[B]

That's what the hometown grocer is all about. It's about that personal emotional connection to what you use to sustain your family.

[C]

Yes. And food is very, very unique. It's the ecosystem, but also what it means to shoppers, how they take decisions. So a danger is that you sort of lose that emotional connection in stores.

[B]

So we've kind of danced around this media monetization thing. Does that mean that retailers shouldn't be doing that or does it mean that they need to look at it differently and how they think about media Helping them achieve their objectives.

[C]

Yeah. In my, in my opinion, it's, it's the second. Of course, I think media monetization can enrich the shopping experience. It can, you can provide inspiration and content to shoppers in a way that, that they really value, but it can also do the opposite and that's the danger. But so, so truly, again, putting the shopper experience at the core I think is now more important than, than it, than it was one or two years ago.

[D]

Yeah. I think it's like, like with everything or something appears like the Internet, I don't know, and then like somehow it ends up finding its place.

[C]

No.

[D]

In the whole business. Because I think retail media is still retail. No. It's part of the whole equation.

[A]

No.

[C]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. But it's like, I think inspiration, for instance, retail media can offer inspiration.

[B]

Sure can.

[C]

So you need to really understand your shopper in a way no one else does to offer that inspiration. And then you need to be able to offer that inspiration to your partners, make that available to your partners, to the brands. I mean, and I guess that when.

[D]

You'Re doing like loyalty programs with companies like the retail media, it's not like you do loyalty and then retail media is on the other side. You look at the whole.

[C]

And some of our solutions also enable retailers to monetize that relationship or that connection. So it's not a bad word at all, but it is a, when you do it right, it can be incredibly powerful, but when you don't, it's really ruining the relationship. And also it has a huge spell on effect on the, on the shopper experience.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And what's one loyalty trend that you as an expert are seeing, what you think is going under the radar?

[C]

Well, I, I, one thing that I, that I think is going to change the model of retail for some retailers that are incredibly successful and like staying very court true to their core.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I think that a new model is going to be paid subscriptions. It's not new because Costco and others are already doing it. But I think where a lot of retailers now are getting value through media monetization, I think it will come to. It will. And I already see that, that some of our clients are partners are involving us in these conversations that they want to go into models where their most loyal shoppers go into quite high amounts of paid memberships.

[B]

And in return, those consumers get delivery, they get exclusive offers, promotional security, they.

[C]

Get all kinds of benefits.

[B]

They get streaming media services. They get a whole bunch of, of value.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Out of being that engaged with the retailer.

[C]

Yes. And what I found, for instance, very inspiring about the, what Nick Green was telling the founder of Thrive that he was talking about because we, we introduced a paid membership model, we could invest into making some local assortment available or more assortment available. So it's sort of, it just changes the game, but also very fascinating. If a shopper goes into a paid membership, it means that the shopper is really valuing what you stand for and is committing.

[B]

It's not just buying the products. It's like, no, you're investing in your.

[C]

It's a commitment. You start today and it's going to change your behavior. You sort of make a promise that you're going to. About your behavior in future. And instead of influencing the decision point on the spot, it's like influencing a decision point over a longer period of time into future. And so where media monetization helps retailers to stay profitable, I believe this is the next level in loyalty because you don't pay money to get it back in discounts. You do it because you care. You want to engage in this relationship and you really want to be seen and feel valued. And that is the next level. And if you think about the economics for a retailer, that could be the new game for that.

[B]

Well, it's certainly in the club format. If you look at retailers here in the US be it Costco or BJ's, and you look at how much money they generate from the membership fees and the case that that's like, it's equivalent to the profit of the company.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And that, that that's the real measure of success that your consumers have invested in. I want to shop at your store. I want all those value propositions.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and that's the ultimate measurement.

[C]

It is. And an example I always used to sort of explain it is like five or ten years ago when you were watching free television at home.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[C]

I mean, yeah. A movie that takes one and a half hours, you need to spend two and a half hours because there's six or seven, ten minutes of ads and then you have streaming, which you sort of pay for. And it's uninterrupted and it's like on the go. And this is sort of a similar, similar example.

[D]

Or even in, in an example that's even closer, like food deliveries, like in Barcelona. You have global.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And I think a lot of people are global prime.

[A]

And then.

[D]

Yeah, you don't, you don't, like, you pay a fee and you don't pay the, you know.

[B]

Right. You're not paying the drink. Exactly. Just you feel unencumbered that if you make another order, you're not going to pay that additional fee. It's already covered. So you're much more like when I shop Amazon, I just add it to the basket. I don't let my basket sit there until I've built like eight or nine items in it. I'm like, it's covered in my subscription. I'm just picking buy now. And if that means I, over the course of a day, I make four separate transactions, great. It doesn't affect me because I don't think about it. I know it's going to be shipped.

[C]

That's it. You don't think about it. It becomes habit because you have already taken your decision. And that is the difference. Instead of influencing that decision during the trip or like to consider even going into a store, the decision has already been made.

[B]

So, Rick, I want to close this out with about looking forward to the future. We think about the challenge of our budget. We think about we've got to go to like six or seven different retailers to do things. It's almost like I put a lot of effort into it and it becomes a chore. What do you see about the future? Is shopping a chore? No, no, no. Or should it be something else?

[C]

Food is fun. Retail is fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Discovery, inspiration, it's solution. When you have high demands, when you have personal preferences, when you fulfill them with food, it brings joy. To answer your question, the shopping experience, the experience in store, the emotional connection will become much, much more important. And digital tools can help if you deploy them right. But the big, big topic of the future is going to be loyalty. And that is why it's so fascinating. Because the thing is, if you have shoppers that are under pressure, their demands are higher. The moment you fulfill these demands, their loyalty is.

[B]

Is achieved.

[C]

It's achieved, but in a way that is incredibly powerful. And the thing about the current shopping behavior is that it's the full shopper journey that you can influence. And the moment you do that, it's sort of the spin wheel. The more you give, the more you get.

[B]

That's brilliant.

[D]

Another year, another podcast.

[B]

This was great. I have a lot of takeaways from here that building loyalty is critically important to retailers. Focusing on media as the answer to everything and, and not how it's going to create those moments of inspiration that creates that emotional connection is really what I. What I took away. Is there something that kind of.

[D]

Oh, yeah. I mean, a lot as well. But I Have that the, the common. The themes are common globally, which is fascinating because sometimes we talk about us versus Europe and it's interesting. It's all like the same constant and talking about value, but not as many money but as value proposition. Like what do you stand for as a retailer? And also that we went for from a bit of mass shopper to actually every shopper is local and unique to their own context at the same time.

[B]

Rick Svenkels from TCC Global. Daniel and I greatly appreciate you taking time out of the grocery shop to sit down with us and have this conversation.

[C]

Very happy to do it.

[B]

I'm looking forward to next year already. This is getting to be a. It's getting to be a ritual. We're creating loyalty. I love this, Daniel. Really great to be able to sit down with you and do this. I appreciate taking time. I'm glad we're able to have these kinds of conversations. And I also again, have to reiterate how incredibly happy I am that that the FMCG guys is such a prominent mechanism for education about our industry in Europe and beyond. You've done such a great job. Kudos to you.

[D]

Well, you know, we've been lucky to have a great role model in you guys as well. Not to be, not to be like, too cheesy.

[B]

It's the mutual admiration. Exactly, Exactly.

[D]

Exactly.

[B]

All right. To our audience, if you have a chance and you like what you hear on the CPG guys and the FMCG guys, please do go on to Apple, Spotify, whatever your preferred platform is, let us know. Give us a rating. The rating is important because it helps other people in our industry find the podcast. It makes us much more findable. And also leave a review. And a review is important because I know Daniel reads his sree and I read ours. We truly want your feedback. We want to know what you like, what you don't like, what you want to hear more of, what you want to hear less of. And all of that will help guide this ongoing conversation that we have. But Daniel, thanks a lot for joining us. Thanks to our audience. We look forward to speaking with you on the next episodes of the FMCG Guys. And wait for it, the CCG guys. There we go. Thanks, guys. Bye.

[A]

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