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- [00:00]
Sree Rajagopalan
Retail media is rapidly becoming the go to channel for brands, aiming to engage consumers with measurable performance along the path to purchase. Retailers are increasingly empowering brands to accurately target meaningful audiences based on their longitudinal purchasing behaviors and execute media impressions across on site, off site and in store channels throughout the entire marketing funnel. For brand marketers, effectively incorporating retail media into their marketing budgets is essential for growth in today's omnichannel landscape. To address this critical need, Cornell University has partnered with the CPG Guys, along with leading industry executives and visionaries from around the world to launch the first ever retail Media Strategy Executive Education program. This immersive four day program at Cornell Tech May 5th to the 8th, 2025 brings together industry thought leaders and renowned faculty to share best practices for building compelling retail media platforms. You'll discover how to collaborate on creating best in class tech stacks, measure performance to ensure brands Access the necessary KPIs based on Campaign objectives and establish strong partnerships between brands and retailers. In addition, the program covers optimizing brand strategies using AI driven campaign design at scale to achieve marketing goals. By the end of the Retail Media Strategy program, you'll have gained a deep understanding of the retail media ecosystem and how both brands and retailers can accelerate organizational transformation to thrive in the future of performance marketing. See the link in the digital liner note to this episode to learn more about the Retail Media Strategy Executive Education Program at Cornell Tech May 5th through the 8th, 2025. Welcome to the CPGuys Podcast. Your hosts, Sree Rajagopalan and Peter V S Bond explore how brands and retailers engage in an increasingly digitally driven world. And now, here are the CPG Guys.
- [02:02]
Peter V S Bond
Hello and welcome to this episode of the CPG Guys. I'm Sree, none other than your co host and joining me today is my other CO Host and BFF, Mr. Peter V S Bond, all the way from Connecticut. Peter, how you doing man?
- [02:15]
Sree Rajagopalan
Sree, I'm doing well. I'm excited because we didn't have to put a lot of work in today's episode, did we?
- [02:23]
Peter V S Bond
We didn't. But before we get to our actual episode, Peter, let me remind our audience that we have one small request for you. When you get a moment, we'd love for you to take a minute, go to Apple Podcasts and go to that amazing reviews and ratings feature. Please do leave us a rating. It really helps us because it boosts the algorithm so you can find us much more easier. But the rating also tells us if we're doing the right things and we're having the right conversations with the right guests. Speaking of guests, let me introduce who it is. Today we are featuring our sister podcast, or in this case, our brother podcast. I guess a brother and sister podcast. The FMCG Guys with Daniel Efrain and Christine recently had Christian Stamkoider, president of amia, an executive committee member for Danone, and we're excited to feature Christian. Lots of learnings on this episode, all the way from leadership to operational styles to success in the European marketplace. Now over to the episode.
- [03:36]
Daniel Efrain
Welcome to the FMCG Guys, the podcast that dives into the innovation strategy and trends shaping consumer goods and retail in Europe and beyond.
- [04:00]
Daniel Torres
Welcome to the FMCG Guys. I'm your host, Daniel Torres. If this is the first time you tune in, you'll want to know that this is the show that gives visibility to the top voices in consumer goods and retail in Europe and beyond. We're now well over 200 episodes in, so do go into our website or your favorite podcast platform to entertain yourself and be educated by some of the industry's top voices. And remember, we are part of a family of podcasts which is headed by Sri and Peter Bond in the US The CPG Guys. So if you're curious to know what's happening in the consumer goods industry in the other side of the Atlantic, do make sure you tune into this show so today, accompanied by two very top voices of the industry on one side of the table. One person that you may have heard before. Actually, I'm joking. You will have heard them for sure. It's no other than my co host, Efrain Rosario. Hey, Efrain, how are you?
- [04:56]
Christian Stamkoider
Hey, Daniel. Good to be with you as always.
- [04:59]
Daniel Torres
Yeah, likewise. Likewise. I'm coming from a little tour of the US which was a lot of fun. You probably saw my pictures from CES and nrf.
- [05:10]
Christian Stamkoider
I did, I did. I would tell you that I don't know if Vegas and New York are necessarily representative of the US As a whole, but very interesting places nonetheless.
- [05:20]
Daniel Torres
Yeah, they're probably two outliers. No, but, no, it's great to see a lot of people, obviously. I saw Sri and Peter from the CPG guys. Also saw Sean and Sam from smg. I saw a lot of people. Wouldn't want to leave anyone out, actually, so I'll leave it at that. If anything, you can go into our our LinkedIn page and you'll see a lot of familiar faces on the industry. Of the industry. So that was a lot of fun and I think we will be having fun at a lot of other events. Around the world this year. So at the other side of the table and speaking about the other side of the world, although I'll tell you more about that in a bit, we have no other than Christian Shtankur, who's the president amia, which is Asia, Middle east and Africa, and member of the executive committee at Danone. Hey, Christian, how are you?
- [06:13]
Daniel Efrain
Hi, Daniel. Thanks for inviting. I'm very well. Pleasure to be with you today.
- [06:17]
Daniel Torres
Likewise. And I know that you live on a plane normally, so what side of the world are you at right now?
- [06:23]
Daniel Efrain
I'm actually in Paris, which is Danone's headquarter and this is also where my family is based. But you're right, I'm probably traveling 2/3 of my time to be in the markets, being with the countries, and I really enjoy being there because it's such a great dynamic. You know, being with the people gives me a lot of energy.
- [06:46]
Daniel Torres
Yeah. And I'm curious to know Christian, actually, because I was just thinking this morning as I, as I was getting up and I got back yesterday and I still feel pretty tired after coming back from the U.S. i was wondering, how do you do it? Like traveling a few hours, a few time zones away continuously? Are there any, are there any, like, secret routines that you can share with us?
- [07:10]
Daniel Efrain
I wish I could. I wish I could. There's a few things that I definitely try to do. I mean, one is I try really to keep my sport right. And I'm pretty disciplined even if I arrive, you know, in the. In a place late to do a bit of sport because it really helps me to, you know, kind of to fall asleep. And sometimes I also use some this famous Melatonin that someone recommended to me. And it, it's working. Right. So it's working for me to put me asleep. Especially when you arrive in, in Asia with 6, 7 hours time difference and your body doesn't really feel like sleeping. So that's, that's what I try to do.
- [07:53]
Daniel Torres
Nice. Yeah. Melatonin has actually worked miracles for me as well, I have to say. And I have to say I was a bit concerned that I would have a certain dependence on it, but I think that after a few months of using it, I think it's perfectly fine. So a good recommendation. I think the sports thing is also something that I try to do, but I have to do more of because there's always easy excuses you can put to not do it. Right.
- [08:18]
Daniel Efrain
Yes. And I feel like, you know, I try to put it as a priority as I put meetings and you Know that you schedule in the, in the calendar and. Because when you travel it's very easy to spend every night out and, you know, mingle with people and it's great fun. But, you know, you also have to find the balance that you take care. Especially as we're getting older, right?
- [08:43]
Daniel Torres
Yeah, exactly. Because we will only get older, right?
- [08:46]
Daniel Efrain
Exactly.
- [08:47]
Daniel Torres
You have to keep that in mind. So, Christian, it's great to have you here. You and me have been talking for several years, so I'm glad that I finally landed you on the podcast. Maybe something that we have not talked about so much. Where were you raised? Like, where are you from and how did you start your career in fmcg?
- [09:08]
Daniel Efrain
I'm German, so I grew up in Germany. I went to university in Germany and I started my FMCG career in Germany. And probably the reason why I ended up in FMCG is because as a student, in order to make some money, I worked for below the line promotion agency. Right. That was doing consumer samplings back then it was a lot about tobacco and festivals, alcoholic beverage in whatever lifestyle places. And when you are, you know, kind of doing that, many times you had a marketeer come and brief us as a team about the intention, etc. And I really liked it at the age of 19, 20, 21. So that's also why I then focus my, my university where I studied business administration on marketing and, you know, kind of and entered into FMCG because I really like the speed, the proximity to the consumer, the selling part of it. So that's a bit, the, the history, you know, why I came into fmcg and I have not regretted it since.
- [10:18]
Daniel Torres
Yeah.
- [10:18]
Christian Stamkoider
And if I understand correctly, so obviously you have a long career in fmcg, but I also see that you've spent some time at startups as well, which is, you know, very obviously a very different experience than corporate life. So can you tell us a little bit more about that as well?
- [10:36]
Daniel Efrain
Yeah, I was, you know, I was trying my, my fortune in, in the first wave of the Internet hype. Right. So I started in Unilever as a trainee. I was working there for the first three years and, and then 99, you know, with some friends that worked in different industries, consultancy, we saw, you know, kind of the Internet boom starting and we, you know, ever since then started with brainstorming on the weekends what we could do, how we potentially could enter this very exciting space. And end of 99, I handed in my resignation to Unilever and I found it with a good friend of mine an Internet startup. There was venture capital, finance that, you know, obviously in the beginning took off nicely. We hired people, bought a small IT firm with the money that we had and not really had a fantastic ride till the bubble bursted. And then, you know, it was exactly the opposite, right? From going fast, having high level contacts, you know, to dissolving the business, you know, letting go of people, you know, that was a tough experience because it was not just tech people that you had and young guys, but we also had accounting people. I remember a single mom of two kids and when that joined from a safe job in a safe company because you believed in the idea. And if you have to tell her, sorry, you know what, we have to let you go, it gives you sleepless nights because you feel the responsibility. Probably something you never, I never experience till then in Unilever. So it has also been really important learning experience. The other thing that I felt, and that's why I still look back at it, that it has been really two very important years in my career because back then I learned about the concepts of the mvp, right, the minimum viable product. You learn about what agility means, what adapting your strut plan means, what speed really means because development was so fast and you were adapting and you were following what was happening in the US and then when you look back at industry, you really felt that, oh my God, industry, those companies, they're quite bureaucratic and slow. So you saw a wave coming that I think has really changed also the way that industry has, has worked, right, with a very, very different dynamic.
- [13:17]
Christian Stamkoider
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in a way it's almost like you've built this other muscle when it comes to both general leadership, but also in terms of like, you know, even specific to marketing as well, because it is such a very different environment. And you know, I imagine that you've taken some of those, those formative experiences and that muscle you've built and it's now, you know, influenced, know, the way that you lead at a corporate environment like, like Danone.
- [13:45]
Daniel Efrain
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think the, the first thing that it basically made me do when after, you know, we had dissolved the business and, and we were basically. It was clear that I would go back to fmcg. I decided to go for a smaller company, right. So I didn't go back. I could have gone back to Unilever, but I, I decided to join a smaller size company called Vela that was later acquired by Proctor because I felt in smaller companies you could impact more, you can be faster, you know, because the decision Lines are shorter. That was a bit my conviction at that time because I really felt that maybe sometimes the very static, a little bit bureaucratic way of working in those large MNCs back then was not so much for me anymore. But then you have seen, you know, I've done it with Vela. And then Vela was acquired by Proctor. I left Proctor after some time to join Numico. Then Numico was acquired by Danone. So in the end, you know, I basically also concluded that the world of large MNCs is a great world, and sooner or later, they always catch you back.
- [14:58]
Daniel Torres
Yeah. I think you did your best to get out of there, but they kept on pulling you back, as they said in that movie. Right, exactly.
- [15:08]
Daniel Efrain
And I haven't regretted it, to be very honest. Right. Because I'm always saying I haven't chosen to join Danone because I came to Danone through an acquisition, but I have, well chosen to stay for the last 17 or 18 years in Danone because it's a fantastic company with great people, great mission, vision, you know, and values. So that's. That's why I'm here, you know, and I've grown.
- [15:35]
Daniel Torres
Yeah. So what do you think makes the company different? I mean, what's. What's kept you there for so long? And I mean, there's an obvious piece which is that you've done well there and you got promoted and so on. But I think that you were talking about more than like, the vision, the values, which is what makes a company substantially different. Right.
- [15:53]
Daniel Efrain
Yeah. I think Danone is a company first, obviously, is a company that has very strong, you know, kind of heritage in this, what Danone calls the dual project. Right. It's basically strongly impacting on. On the business, so driving business performance and social. Performance and social impact. And that this is basically, you know, kind of a combined, you know, mission that we have in. In the company. And I think that really makes a difference with me because there's two elements that also drive me. One is growth. Right. Business growth, people growth, personal growth. But also I'm driven by impact, you know, and not just impacting on the business, but maybe impacting also on the society in smaller or in larger scale. And that is, I think, something that Danone allows to do with the categories we're in. I also see that, having worked in different companies, that all companies talk about people centricity. People are critical, people are important. I think Danone has this element where, I mean, people are really at the heart of it. It's a people centric Business and less a process centric business with maybe the philosophy of the first two CEOs, Antoine and Frank Riboud. It has been very entrepreneurial, very country centric. So if you run a business as a general manager, you really, you know, have a lot of freedom and opportunity to make an impact. And that's what has really kept me in the company.
- [17:35]
Christian Stamkoider
And in that, like you said, you've been at Denham for, for quite some time. Joining from Rubico. Can you talk a little bit about the variety of roles that you've had because you've also traveled the world and seen a lot of different cultures and countries as well.
- [17:52]
Daniel Efrain
Yeah, it started obviously, I mean back in Unilever as everyone. I started as a trainee and then I worked in, you know, in marketing, brand management, worked in global brand management with Vela and then P and G worked in local marketing in, in Numico and then I moved back in 2007 into my first GM or general management role. I've been in Czech Republic and Slovakia. I've been to Russia, running Russia and, and cis. I've been to Spain, which is one of the markets that, you know, where Danone, you know, kind of is historically strong. Exactly. An institution before I took a regional role in waters running Europe, North America and you know, and then basically today as we have changed a bit the way we operate from a category centric organization to a geographic organization. I'm running the Africa, Middle east and Asia region.
- [19:04]
Daniel Torres
Is it. I don't know if you'll answer, if you'll have an answer for me with this question, but you. So you've lived in Paris, you've lived in Moscow, you lived in Barcelona, you've lived obviously in Germany. Any. If you had to choose a favorite, could you pick one?
- [19:22]
Daniel Efrain
I probably, I really like Paris. I mean Paris is a fantastic city because I think it's probably the, you know, to at least one of the most beautiful cities in the world that has such a cultural richness and so much to do. I think it's something which is really fantastic. But still my preference and my preferred city is Barcelona. I loved it when I was, you know, kind of in school. You know, I loved it when I was a student. You know, I remember from the Olympics 92 and living there, you know, having 300 days of sunshine, having the sea, having the mountains. I think Barcelona is probably one of the absolute favorite cities for, for me where I had the privilege to live.
- [20:14]
Christian Stamkoider
I don't disagree with you but you are, you are feeding Daniel's ego with that answer, and given that, I guess I'm the Paris resident, I wholeheartedly agree with you on everything you said about that city as well.
- [20:29]
Daniel Torres
I have to say I love Paris as well. I wouldn't mind moving to Paris.
- [20:32]
Christian Stamkoider
So very different experience in Barcelona. I think, you know, and I think, you know, Christian, you hit on, on some of those differences. 300 days of sunshine being one that comes to mind immediately.
- [20:42]
Daniel Efrain
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [20:45]
Daniel Torres
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in the, in the time that you've been at Danone, it's interesting because you joined with Numico, which was integrated, which was acquired by Danone and then you've also had a role as an integration head for when you integrated WhiteWave, which is a huge plant based business based in the US but also have Halpro here in Europe. So very well known integration for the business. What's the dynamic of such a big integration? What does it look like, what goes on internally?
- [21:24]
Daniel Efrain
Yeah, I think when the company asked me if I could lead the integration, which obviously was one of the biggest acquisitions of Danone at the time, you know, together with the Numico one, I was first like, oh my God, you know, doing that, you know, let's, let's see what, what this will be. But in the end, I think it was a very interesting experience. Right. The first thing that was a bit odd. You know, I've been all my career chasing daily net sales, profit, cash market share. And all of a sudden when you're running integration, you're not really looking at the daily net sales because that is done, handled and owned by, by the CEO of the North American business. So my focus was on managing cultural integration, system integration, you know, so that you really have the teams in place, harmonizing processes, you know, trade term management. How do you basically go into one approach between what Wideway has done and what Danone North America for example, has done. And I think it was an interesting experience and I think the biggest experience was really integrating two very, very different cultures. You know, the Danone culture in, you know, in the, in, in the US and WhiteWave, which was a very American company where Danone is obviously a very European company in the US and bringing that to, you know, kind of one culture, making sure that people understand some of the process, how Danone runs them, sometimes the informalities that Danone has versus the formalities that Wide Wave had. And I was really surprised because White Wave was like a fast growth business, but they were probably more process than done on. Right. So that was an interesting experience as well. So I learned A lot. But okay, it was six months. Of course, you're chasing synergies as well, right? Because that's part of the investment claims that you find the synergy. So follow up on that. So I have to say I learned a lot. And it was interesting for me because I've been two times on the side of the company being acquired. So I was also being part of the integration team. When Proctor acquired Vela, I went through the acquisition of Numico on the Numico side. Now I was on the other side. So it also gave me good insight into what people will go through as part of an acquisition. Right. Because when you're on the side of the company being acquired, there's always this feeling of winner and loser, right? The one acquiring. And as much as you talk about we want to value your heritage and all this, but you're always a bit in this worry of, oh, my God, you know, what will happen, everything will change. And I learned, you know, particular in the acquisition of. When Proctor acquired Vela, which was a family business, that people that for years have been critical towards the way, you know, well, I was going and didn't like this and that all of a sudden, the moment, you know, Proctor announced to buy the business, those people would glorify the past, right? Like, everything was perfect in the past and everything that was coming from the other side was like, oh, my God, oh, my God, this is not. This is not gonna work. This is not gonna work for me. So helping people go through. Because of course I can understand change sometimes is a threat, but how do you help people go through this journey to take the change as something which is positive, right? That is an opportunity to grow, opportunity to learn new things. So that' something that, you know, for me was a very important learning that I took from the other side and maybe gave me also credibility, you know, being then on the side of the company that acquired the other.
- [25:47]
Daniel Torres
And empathy, I imagine, like, really know how to send it, because communication, I guess, is key in these situations also. So being able to send the right message in. Yeah.
- [25:59]
Daniel Efrain
And you acquiring, I mean, if you buy a business, you're also acquiring for knowledge, right? And capabilities. You're not just acquiring brands, you know, and in particular in plant based, when you look at the history, the heritage also of the IPRO business, you know, the team that was there in Ghent, you know, running the business, having really deep understanding of the drivers of the categories, you know, you want. You want those people to feel good, right? And you want these people to feel, well, and, you know, kind of valued from, from the start because they really bring a lot of value to the, to the business. And that's, that's something that is absolutely critical. And probably that's why many acquisitions go wrong, right, because you are, you're trying too much to adapt it into, you know, your way of doing things without really capturing the learnings and, you know, making sure that the cultural difference that always exists, that you manage it in a way that works for both sides.
- [27:03]
Christian Stamkoider
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, as you've referenced culture and you know, the importance of it and acquisitions like, like the ones we just talked about. As somebody who has been on both sides of acquisitions of both smaller companies, but also the big corporate entities, and as somebody who's been both in global and regional roles, I'm curious to get your perspective on how have you seen the dynamics within a corporate entity change since you started back at Unilever and how that's evolved over the past 20 years?
- [27:39]
Daniel Efrain
I think, I mean, first, I'm a big believer in culture, right? I think we all know the famous saying of Peter Drucker that culture eats strategy for breakfast. And I think that's fundamentally true and I think probably even more true today than it was when I started in, you know, kind of in the 90s. Because culture for me is obviously is the way you, you interact. But culture is also very much linked to the ability to execute. And what is the spirit? How do you take challenges, you know, how do you deliver from PowerPoint really to execution in store on shelf. I think that this element of culture today is even more important than it has been. Because when you look at the big multinationals 25 years back, I think remembering Unilever, we had insights, we had knowledge that other smaller companies didn't have. Information was not easily accessible. Insights, trends, you know, so you had an advantage and then you had a machine running it right on the innovation, etc. Today the world has moved on. I mean, when you look at the information available on the Internet through AI, I mean, you know, on Insights, everyone can more or less identify similar opportunities and draft similar strategies. And that's what you would also see if you look at FMCG presentations, the strategies look more and more alike between companies. The difference in the end, the main difference lies into the ability to execute, right? Can I execute what I put on a PowerPoint slide? Can I execute it with agility? Can I overcome barriers? Can I really make things happen? And for this you need people to be engaged, you need the right mindset. And of course, the leadership that really is able to unleash the best potential of those people. And I think that's what I think has really changed a lot, that the focus on culture, on leadership today is much more important than maybe it has been 20, 30 years ago when MNCs were very bureaucratic, very static, you know, sometimes even risk averse, very much insight oriented, less outside oriented. And I think those approaches, I would say a bit overpassed and are not the ones that give you success today.
- [30:25]
Daniel Torres
What about the whole impact of COVID on the culture and like remote working, mixed working companies, calling all the employees back?
- [30:40]
Daniel Efrain
I think obviously Covid was a big. And I've lived Covid, right. And I was in the waters division and you know, in waters, you know, have a huge exposure to away from home travel channels. So obviously I can tell you when you wake up and you have 30% of your channels closed, right. And 35% of your channel cross. I think that was an experience. And on top you sit at home and trying to engage with all the people. I believe that we need a certain level of flexibility today. Right. And I think that combining work from home and office work is absolutely critical. There is things that you can very well do from home. And I sometimes work from home, even if I'm here, because I only have calls, I only have visios and I want two, three hours where I'm undisruptively able to work on strategy, have some thinking time and that's fine. But it doesn't allow you to fully replace the human interaction and the value of human interaction. It's difficult sometimes to have what we call the hard conversations through visio. Right. Because if I have a business review and there's elements that I challenge is very different if afterwards, you know, you have a social moment together than when you, you know, kind of put the, you know, kind of the leave button and people are like, oh my God, you know, did I do something wrong or not? Or was he happy or not? So it's not so easy to get this kind of challenge conversation across. It's not that easy to bring in different opinions. You lose particular, I believe, you know, the people that are, you know, sometimes more quiet, more introvert, they even, you know, I see sometimes it's more difficult for them to speak up if it's not moderated well and you're missing the one to one interactions. So I think there needs to be flexibility. I have my team all over the place, right. I've in, in the regional team, I've, I've People in Singapore, I have people in Dubai. You know, my, my finance head is in. Based in Munich. You know, HR is based in Amsterdam. Because we're traveling so much that I'm also not saying, oh my God, move your family just to be the two days together in Paris. It doesn't make sense, you know, but being able to travel together and having quality time, you know, also physically together is something that is absolutely valuable. And, and that's, I think, where you see companies move back to pushing, you know, work from office, would I believe that it's the best to force only work from office. I don't think that this is necessarily needed. And I think we can leave it also to the responsibility of team managers of individuals to make responsible calls on that. Yeah.
- [33:50]
Daniel Torres
And you mentioned about your team currently being spread out and curious to know a bit more about your current role at Danone as head of Asia, Middle east and Africa, which is quite a big region to cover.
- [34:06]
Daniel Efrain
Yeah, obviously it's a region that, I mean, it's a very exciting region. Right. I mean, it's covering what, nearly 70% of the world's population. We have a big business in baby nutrition. It's a big part of the, of the babies born in this world. So that's making it a very exciting region. But it's, it has a lot of similarities. When you look at challenges, right? We have a lot of challenges coming from hyperinflation markets, currency devaluation. You have a big challenge, which is even now with all, after all the inflation, with affordability, access to good nutrition product, you have challenges on kind of effective route to markets into the thousands and thousands of traditional trade stores. We have a big topic which is malnutrition. When you look at this region, you have 25, 30% of all the children in the first five years of age, they grow up malnourished, which impacts their physical development and their mental development. So what we're trying to do in order to manage the business is obviously, you know, recognize that we are very local and we need really to be in Indonesia, very Indonesian in the way we execute, et cetera, and the same in South Africa or Nigeria, but that we build platforms where we can learn from each other instead of reinventing the wheel to scale things. Right. And I think that's the mix that we're trying to leverage, recognizing that it is a heterogeneous region, much more heterogeneous than Europe, for example. But there's a lot of platforms that we can leverage across parts or bigger parts of the Region and learn and learn and gain speed and scale.
- [36:17]
Christian Stamkoider
So I think you, you illustrated it based on, you know, things like the hyperinflation, thinking about, you know, the high birth rates and this and specifically the routes to market and being how diverse they are in a region like what you have in your current rebate. I'm curious to understand for you as a leader of this, of this business unit, what does that mean for you in terms of, you know, what does it, how does that influence your leadership style? And given those parameters, I think first.
- [36:49]
Daniel Efrain
Obviously, you know, I have to recognize as a leader and I think it's not just for me that every one of my team knows his business or knows his functional responsibility much better than I do. Right. And that's okay. And that's great. Obviously the GM running Indonesia knows Indonesia much better than I can ever do or the run running Sub Saharan Africa or Nigeria. And that means that I need to put, you know, of course a lot of trust in, in them, right. In the way the analyze the, they see the opportunities. They run the day to day business and the same with the function. My job is really to have a, to leverage a team that first is very clear, you know, that we're here to help the country succeed. Right. Because in the end, you know, it's, we're country centric. We are here to help the countries leverage the power of a big company, right. Access to R and I resources, best practices so that we can help them become a bit better every day a bit more competitive maybe sometimes helping them see opportunities that others have already gone through. And that's basically, you know, what we do. And, and I think in, in a region where you with all the challenges, right, because you have geopolitical challenges. You know, we were selling one day you're selling, you know, in Myanmar and we're, you know, we have a nice business there and you know, then with everything happening on the ground, you know you're losing it, right? Are you losing part of the business business? So the, the teams are very, very focused obviously on running sometimes the day to day operations with all the challenges. So my role is also with the, with the regional team is that we're putting enough focus on, on the mid and long term, right? What is going to be the next, you know, kind of game changers, the next accelerators that we need to, you know, kind of build and leverage so that, you know, going forward we maintain, you know, kind of the good momentum we have right now.
- [39:12]
Daniel Torres
Yeah, I mean, and that's, that would be like A whole other conversation, Right, but there's like so much diversity in terms of, like, yeah, the products that you have, because you have all the divisions together, like dairy waters, baby nutrition, all together and like all these different routes to market. Some markets that have a strong modern channel, modern trade footprint, some others that are completely distributed, managed and traditional trade. So again, whole other conversation, but it has to be fascinating. I have, I have a question which is very, very interesting, I think for all multinationals, which is like in all these markets that you're managing, as you mentioned, local, knowing the local market is key, right? How do you combine that with. So how do you combine strong local talent with actually keeping the global culture?
- [40:07]
Daniel Efrain
I think, look, I think culture for me, you know, needs to be, you know, of course, based on values, right? And this is global values that we have, global leadership behaviors that we have, but they need to be adapted to the relevant local environment where we operate. When I look today at our region, you could see in some of the markets meant you look at the results that you have in India, in Indonesia, and in many categories, you have the local companies win over multinationals. After years of multinationals leading in Asia, in Southeast Asia, I think today the local companies, you know, are very, very strong and very, very competitive. And, you know, if you want to compete with them, with the speed they have, with the, you know, the certain, you know, let's say proximity, they have understanding of the markets, you will only succeed when you have very strong local talent. Understanding Nigeria, you know, if I sent an exped from, from France, it would take him a lot of time to understand it. Right? And, you know, and the route to markets and the way you operate and the agility you need to have, even when it comes to pricing. Right. Because if you have a devaluation, what is the right pricing I do as coinage is important, et cetera, you know, so really, you know, kind of building local talent, you know, grooming local talent to become stronger and then promoting this local talent also maybe across the region is something that we put a lot of effort in. And I think it's, you know, it's strengthening the Danone culture, right? Bringing really diverse talent from this region up through the ranks. And it's a fundamental driver of really kind of a strong culture that is relevant also not just today, but also in the future.
- [42:21]
Christian Stamkoider
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there's a lot of FMCG brands that share that thinking in terms of cracking that code, in terms of how you combine that global thinking with the local application and understanding Those local dynamics, because 100% I think, and I've experienced that on several projects as well, and that there is that ramp up period and you lose that ability to adapt and be able to move quickly. For sure.
- [42:49]
Daniel Efrain
There's another element also, if I can say that I think that we're also seeing this scale is of the essence. If you want to be in traditional trade, you need scale. And if you want to have scale, you need to be able to serve all consumers. Right. If you believe that you can only serve, you know, socioeconomic level A and B, I mean, in some categories, if you're maybe in luxury, beauty, etc, that's fine. But if you're an fmcg, if you're in dairy in Africa, if I don't surf at price points that are relevant to also at least socioeconomic levels C and D, I'm in a irrelevant niche. Right. I cannot afford the route to market, etc. So, you know, and that's where I sometimes see, you know, the talent from maybe the global North. If you're only obsessed by relatives. Right. Only obsessed by percentages, but not obsessed by absolutes. In, in, in those countries you may hit the wall. Right. You need to have the right view at both. And, and that's something which is absolutely critical.
- [43:58]
Daniel Torres
Yeah. I also love the idea of like. Yeah. That you kind of have the responsibility in these markets in the future to create that talent pipeline of future global executives that will come from these emerging markets that are already important today, but will only grow in importance in the future. So in XCOM in the future, you'll need to have Africa, Asia, Middle east represented to some extent.
- [44:22]
Daniel Efrain
Absolutely, absolutely. And they very, very strong talents. You know, I, I can tell you I'm, I'm always impressed when I go to, to see the, the talent in the markets, the attitudes, the mindset, the, the eagerness to learn, the eagerness to make a difference, the eagerness to grow. It's, it's really impressive, you know, and sometimes it also can feel like in Europe we, we've pretty much underestimate the power and the potential that is in those markets.
- [45:00]
Christian Stamkoider
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Christian, this has been very enlightening and I've taken copious notes and learning from you and your experiences and thank you for your time. We have one final question for you before we let you go. And this is a question that we ask all our guests which asks you in this case to go back in time and to think about if you could give yourself one piece of advice at the beginning of your career when you were first starting at Unilever or that below the line promotional agency, what would that one piece of advice be given everything you've learned over your career?
- [45:38]
Daniel Efrain
I think the one piece of advice would be how do you make sure that for me that I'm building, I'm putting around me people that give me honest feedback, right? That give me honest feedback on my flaws, on my, you know, maybe my, the blind spots that I have as a leader. Because what, what I realized is, you know, and, and this is even true, the, the higher you go up in, in hierarchy is that often people like to make you feel good, right. And please you and spare you with maybe the, the elements where, you know, you're not that strong is a concept that I call this tough love, right? I mean, who will give you, who will tell you if you have. It's a coach that always said that who will tell you if you have bad breath, it's your kids, your wife, because they love you, right? And, and finding the, you know, kind of a group of people in your team, you know, below you, you know, you know, and in peers that give you honest feedback on things that are not beneficial to my leadership style or maybe to the team. That is what I think. It took me a really time to embrace this as an opportunity instead of basically a threat where you need to, you feel like I need to defend that this is not true or whatever. So that's what I should have started much earlier. This kind of awareness of surrounding myself with people that give me honest feedback.
- [47:12]
Daniel Torres
Fantastic. Christian, that was amazing feedback. And as Efrain has mentioned, I've also taken some copious notes of the conversation. So, Efrain, it's your responsibility to go over the takeaways. No. So why don't you start?
- [47:28]
Christian Stamkoider
Well, I think we share in that. But ago, I think first and foremost for me, you know, my, my big takeaway from, from this discussion has been. Christian, I love when you mentioned the role of culture in, in an age where strategy is becoming less and less differentiated and the role that culture can play in really serving as that key differentiator. As you know, when we think about how our brands put together our go to market strategies, they start to become very, very similar to one another. That's not something that I'd heard of or thought of before. So that was an aha moment for me. And really thinking about culture as being able to play that differentiator or the opportunity to really think about how do you differentiate or distinguish yourself through the ability to execute I think for me that's a game changer.
- [48:22]
Daniel Torres
Yeah, absolutely. I was actually very impressed, Christian, that, that I knew you'd done a startup, but I'd seen it on your LinkedIn profile. But I wasn't actually aware that you actually built quite a big team and you even made an acquisition. So that must have been like quite an intense year. Year and a bit or nearly two years that you were running it.
- [48:41]
Daniel Efrain
Yeah, yeah. Acquisition. I mean, we took it 10 people it small it firm. Right. But still, I mean, it was very intense. I mean, 24, seven. Working, working, working. I think it's probably also one of the experience you make that you can overdo it. Right. Because you are losing your ability sometimes to look at the things different if you're constantly working on the same thing. Right. We were only all hyping ourselves of meeting our Saturday, a Sunday, you know, and I. And I don't think that it's unleashes more brain power if you do that compared to sometimes doing other things. Even friends taught me, like, oh my God, you know, you have nothing else to talk about. And if friends tell you that, right. And they're like, oh my God, you know, we're not even inviting you anymore to come for a beer because anyway, you will tell us that you have to work. You. You realize it's a, it's not always the most beneficial.
- [49:49]
Christian Stamkoider
Well, I think they were. That's a clear example of them demonstrating that tough love and honest feedback. It was like, you know, those are, those are good friends to have when they will call you for sure. You know, the other thing for me, Daniel, that I take away from this conversation has been, Kristen, the point you made around, you know, that we tend to have a, particularly for those of us in global roles, a fascinating scale. And, you know, being able and having to think about scale in a slightly different way in terms of like that diversity that we need to think about in terms of routes to market and the audiences of consumers that we're hoping to engage. So it's a combination of like, you know, when you think about it in terms of like in these global roles and you're thinking about these emerging markets, how do you combine that scale with that agility or that speed and the way you talked about it in terms of the absolutes and the percentages and looking at both sides or both sides of the coin, particularly when you're in these global roles, is big for me.
- [50:46]
Daniel Torres
I think the integration experience, I mean, you've been through a lot, I mean, from the startup that you acquired to joining Vela, being acquired by Proctor, joining Numico, acquired by Danone, and then in Danone being a part of participating in integrating White Wave, which is huge. I think it gives you a lot of perspective and I really like the fact of like really putting a lot of focus on how bit like the emotional component and the other side of like the smaller company that's being acquired, how they feel about it, because it will be essential that they understand.
- [51:24]
Daniel Efrain
What.
- [51:24]
Daniel Torres
The greater good is in some way of that acquisition. So I thought that was very interesting.
- [51:30]
Christian Stamkoider
Yeah. And just to kind of go back to the very beginning of our conversation, I think, you know, practically speaking, I think the tips you shared in terms of like, you know, doing sport, for example, to combat jet lag and thinking about, you know, how do you build those routines into like, you know, your overall well being or wellness, particularly when you have, you know, jobs that demand travel like you do. I think that's, that's a very practical but very important takeaway for our audience as well.
- [51:57]
Daniel Torres
Absolutely. Well, Christian, this was amazing. I had a lot of fun, I have to say. So thanks so much for joining us.
- [52:05]
Daniel Efrain
Thank you guys for inviting me. It was a pleasure talking to you and good luck. I'm following obviously your FMCG guys, LinkedIn and your podcast. So I think it's amazing what you have achieved and congratulations because I understand you just reached 20,000 followers. So well done for that.
- [52:23]
Daniel Torres
Thank you. That was actually, that was a milestone that we were really looking forward to. So I appreciate, appreciate it. Efrain, good to see you again as well. And I think I'll be seeing you very soon in another recording. So good to. Good to see you.
- [52:37]
Daniel Efrain
All right, guys, take care.
- [52:38]
Daniel Torres
All right, thanks to our listeners. Have a great day. Cheers. Bye.
- [53:05]
Unknown
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