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- [00:00]
A
Foreign has always been about telling stories and building trust. But for those of us in the creative industries, the world we're trying to tell those stories in is shifting faster than ever. Traditional media is shrinking, algorithms keep moving the damn goal posts and AI is changing how our work gets discovered. On top of that, clients and audiences are demanding more. More impact, more meaning, more proof that the work we do actually cuts through. It's a lot of pressure. So how do we adapt? How do creatives and agencies get seen and heard in this new landscape? And what skills are going to matter most if we want to stay relevant? To get into all of this, I'm joined by the brilliant Claire Blythe, founder of Redsetter, the global PR agency that champions design and has helped some of the world's top creative studios builds their reputations. Claire has been right in the thick of these changes and she knows what works, what doesn't and what's coming next. In this episode, we talk about what the actual decline of traditional means for design and creativity, why the rise of niche platforms and creators is a huge opportunity, super positive. And how AI is reshaping the way stories are told and discovered. And most importantly, we explore why even in an AI first world. Yeah, sorry I said that kind of term. Human connection, trust and relationships are still the secret sauce that will make your work stand out. If you're a creative, this one's for you. Whether you're running your own studio, freelancing or working in house, there's loads here about how to cut through the noise, build your own reputation and make sure your work gets the recognition it deserves. This season of the Creative Boom podcast is is proudly sponsored by James Cropper. The last mill standing in Britain for premium coloured paper. Its new colour source range puts designers first, giving you direct access to 50 stunning shades in a range of weights and textures straight from the mill. Incredible colour, crafted in the Lake District and delivered straight to your door. Discover the paper that brings your ideas to life via paperandpackaging.james cropper.com claire if you think back to when you first started in pr, what feels completely unrecognizable about the industry today?
- [02:34]
B
It's got to be a just. I mean, the overall shift with AI and how people are finding things and people. So when I first started in pr, people really did sit down and read Design Week and Creative Review and newspapers and all the stuff like that. I don't know. To a certain extent, people do sit down and read things today, but it's just, it's the Majority really isn't. I don't do that particularly. I try to over weekend and try to actually focus on it, but you sort of grab bits off your phone and grab bits when you're sat on my laptop. And that change in behavior has changed everything really.
- [03:12]
A
It really has. I mean, I remember when I started out in journalism, it was, you always had all of the morning papers on the desk. You, you would obviously go through them to make sure you were covering everything. But then that habit shifted when I moved into pr and you would have all the papers and try and find clippings of your.
- [03:30]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [03:32]
A
Your media coverage. Did we get that travel deal in the sun and all this kind of thing and. Yeah, now I haven't worked in a PR agency for a very long time. Do you still get those printed papers or is that long gone?
- [03:48]
B
We get a few. We get. We still probably have subscriptions that arrive probably about 5 or 10amonth or something like that. But the majority, I mean, we still sit down. Every Monday we sit down as a company and go through anything that's happened in the news since Friday that our clients could comment on that sort of show their messaging. And every morning every team looks through the news and sees what there is to comment on. But it's, it's looking online, it's looking. Yeah, you know, it's doing Google searches and asking ChatGPT and although I do find generative AI isn't that good at that at the moment. If I say, tell me some big brand stories that have happened in the past few days, brand business news, it tends to come up with stuff that was a year old. And it's always, I was thinking, oh my God, how did I miss that? And then realize it was a year ago.
- [04:35]
A
Yeah, that's the problem with it, isn't it? That's the only thing I found about it that's frustrating. It's not picking up on the very current aspects. It's copying rather than. Than leading. But it is changing everything. Like the shift is so fast that I can imagine that will be something that comes in, what, in the next 12 months.
- [04:57]
B
It's got to be, hasn't it? Because it's got to get a lot better at that. I still think and I still believe that the essential, the essential thing is that people still want to read really good information. I think generally that's produced by really interesting people. Yeah, I think there's got to be a human soul at the core of the whole thing. And it's like that thing that I think is if I read a book and thought it was the best book in the world and then someone told me that the author who'd written it was actually AI it kind of takes away the point of the whole thing and I feel like that feels like a waste of time. And I do think you can write through it and I think you can design through it and I think obviously you can use it as a tool tool for things. But if you use it well, I think it will, it will change things in the right way. It's like I think the thing that you have to kind of, I think the thing that will change a lot. That's the point I was trying to get to. The thing that would change a lot is clickbait type stuff. So we don't kind of get involved in that and you don't get involved in that and it's the design industry gets involved in it particularly. But you do get some publications in the business side that do clickbait type stuff will be a lot harder to find because people aren't scrolling endlessly through socials and scrolling endlessly through. They're looking at ChatGPT to find out what's going on. Which means you don't get those click throughs to that sort of click baity headlines as much. I think that's going to shift massively over the next year or two.
- [06:26]
A
It's already happening. You can see. Was it the New York Times that said that search traffic had dropped by 50%?
- [06:33]
B
Was it 50%?
- [06:35]
A
I think it was 50. Don't quote me on that. I'll have to search of fact check after the conversation. But yeah, there was, there was lots of reports of it earlier this year just saying how it is massively impacting traditional media. Yeah, because we, we, a lot of us aren't searching Google anymore for answers.
- [06:54]
B
Absolutely. It's that zero clicks, zero clicks marketing where I could be looking for a new Mac and instead of going through Amazon and John Lewis and looking all over the Internet, looking at Google and looking at reviews, ChatGPT does it all for me. So I don't encounter any of the brands and go straight to the one I want on Apple's website.
- [07:16]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I've been doing that as well. Like I was in the market for an air fryer. I'm as per usual, three years rebelliously behind and I was like well we still haven't, we have, we still haven't, you know, hit the button. But we're just, we were just asking ChatGPT what, you know, If. If we have this much space, and this is what I love about it, if we've got this much space and there's the two of us and this is what we cook, what air fryer would you recommend? You can't ask Google that. Well, you can the AI version now, which they've just recently launched in the last month or so. But, yeah, it's. It's incredible.
- [07:55]
B
Yeah, that's it. You get really specific. The holiday we've just been on in France, that's exactly what I found, this place in the south of France, by putting so many parameters, including comfortable beds, because I'm quite old now and stuff like that. I love that.
- [08:09]
A
And it has to be fabulous. And it has to have wine.
- [08:11]
B
Absolutely. Needs to have a pool, needs to be vibe. Yeah. Nice vineyards. But it came up with a thing that was, like, spot on and way cheaper than anything I could find.
- [08:20]
A
Wow, that's incredible.
- [08:22]
B
But is that so losing the clicks? I think the media will change, from which I think is a really good thing, because the whole clickbait thing is. Tends to be total rubbish. So I'm getting people really focus on their audiences and getting a subscriber base in and, you know, really connecting with people rather than offhand comments.
- [08:43]
A
Yeah, I think it's completely shifting PR and marketing, isn't it, and how we get found by people. And what's quite interesting is I, as you know, have been changing how we do Creative boom. It's kind of come full circle without going too much into it, but I think it might be a good example.
- [09:03]
B
Massively, the studio things that you're doing.
- [09:05]
A
So good, really good, they're so lovely. But we started creative beam in 2009 when Twitter was amazing and it was friendly and we built up a community on there and that's how we got going, really. That's how Creative Boom became a success and became known. But then, you know, without going into the details of what's happened since then. Yes, it was like somebody said to me a while ago, where can I sign up to Creative Beam? Where can I become a member? And I was like, well, we're on Twitter, we're on Instagram. And obviously things were starting to change. The algorithms were dictating what could be seen in front of people. And that was another thing us PR and marketing and media platforms had to deal with. And I thought in February, well, I think it's about time we owned our own community and brought it onto our own private space where we're in control and we dictate what happens next. And so that's what we did. And I started to see that happening elsewhere as well. I felt like there was a shift. But it's all happened in the last 12 months, I would say.
- [10:08]
B
Yeah, it's like this year. I mean, I love the fact that you actually thought it and then did it and it's now successful.
- [10:14]
A
I was in my pajamas, I was eating granola.
- [10:18]
B
I wonder if that work does come that way. Yeah.
- [10:20]
A
Honestly, the amount of people I talk to who are held back by the fear of something not working, just do it massively.
- [10:29]
B
Definitely.
- [10:30]
A
What's the worst thing that can happen? It doesn't work out. At least you tried.
- [10:33]
B
Yeah, completely. Yeah, you're completely right and I completely agree with you. But I still have that sort of vague thing myself of thinking, oh, yeah.
- [10:41]
A
Because we're always on display, aren't we?
- [10:43]
B
Yeah, I need to push through it.
- [10:44]
A
Oh, we do. We have to get over the fear. So when clients come to you now, what are they most worried about? That they weren't five years ago.
- [10:54]
B
Oh, let me have a think. What are the most worried about?
- [10:56]
A
Putting you on the spot here.
- [10:57]
B
I know, I like it. It's good.
- [10:59]
A
It's because the thing is, we're all figuring it out as we go along that none of us are experts in this. It's just been so fast that, yeah, it almost feels like the days when social media came in and yes, no one knows. Yeah, we were all just figuring it out. Do you remember when, when, when all these jobs came about? Social media executive and then some PR agencies pivoted and called themselves social media agencies and it was really interesting.
- [11:25]
B
Yeah, completely. I think they are most worried about what's the point in speaking to the media in the first place. Does anyone ever really read anything anymore? How am I going to get in front of my clients? So, okay. When I first started Red Setter, my previous roles had been in working in brand design agencies as the head of new business, head of marketing, that kind of thing. And the main way I used to get new clients in would be by phoning someone up and saying, hey, we do this. I love the way you're doing that, arranging a meeting. And it just worked. Whereas now, I mean, I'm sure there's some people that can still do it well and stuff, but most of the time cold calling doesn't work. You've got to be so much more targeted and clever to reach the minds of your audience. That's. How do you find the way through? The noise just gets Bigger and bigger and bigger, doesn't it? So what's going to get people's attention? How do you find new clients?
- [12:20]
A
Yeah, how do you do that? So from my point of view, let's use Creative Beam as a case study. From my point of view, what worked really well in the beginning on social media was me being the face of the brand and the community that was behind it. So everything that we did on the platform, which was a passion project at the time, it still is, it's just now makes money, it's now my full time job. Yeah, that's great. Which I love, I love it with all my heart. But it's, it was, it worked really well. And then at some point along the line, and this is how much it's changed in 20 years, I thought, right, we need to, if we're going to take this seriously, if we're going to do our community proud, then we need to grow this up, we need to mature it, we need to do things by the book. We need to turn it into a serious publishing platform. Because at the time, do you remember, I used to go on press trips and the journalists would often, do, you know, the other journalists, I never did because I completely naive, I'm just like, oh, I'll just rock up, it'll be great. But all the other journalists would find out who else was going and there would always be one, some often, not always the case, but often older woman or man who would just hate me from the off because they'd look me up and they'd seen that I was a blog and an influencer. And so I remember I went to this press trip in the Netherlands. I won't say which city, just in case they're listening. But it was so funny when we did the introductions, she was scowling at me the whole time we went around. And then when it got to her time, she said, and I am a serious, serious professional print journalist. And I said to her, oh my God, this lovely lad who I'm still in touch with actually leaned in and said, I really don't think she likes you. It was so obvious because I was the only one there who was just online. But I can't remember what my point is. But it's just changed so much. So I felt right, we need to grow up the magazine, we need to be taken seriously. What we're doing is great, we've got influence. Obviously it was disrupting traditional media, newspapers. And I felt so sorry for a lot of my friends who I went to university with, who were Struggling and things just disappeared. Jobs went, newsrooms shrunk. It was, you know, the last 20 years for publishing has been crazy and of course the knock on effect has definitely impacted pr. So I think my long winded question or point is that it's come full circle again because as you said, how do you cut through the noise? How do you differentiate yourself when there's so much slop online and we've got AI? I just suddenly had an epiphany. We need to go back to our roots. We need to have me as the face and our team. We need to have the human element and we need to bring the community back into the engine of everything we do, which is kind of what we've been doing all along anyway.
- [15:18]
B
Yeah. Surely that just will happen. The ones that are going to survive. Surely that's what's going to happen. Because you can't rely on that sort of clickbaity superfluous stuff anymore.
- [15:28]
A
No.
- [15:28]
B
So you'll get proper subscription based. So that the New York Times, I was reading about it in New York Magazine, that's why I was reading about this recently and they were talking about the benefits of like just you're going to have to have subscribers and whether that's paid subscribers or not, if people aren't in your community, then they're not going to listen to you.
- [15:47]
A
Yeah, it's, it's a difficult one for me because creative Boom was always free and it was always meant to be accessible and inclusive. So I don't sit very comfortably with the whole subscription model. It's, I'm pushing for the kind of, you know, sponsorship from, from brands. And don't forget I'm lean and mean and it's a small team and I'm independent so I don't have people breathing down my neck and demanding profits.
- [16:10]
B
Yeah.
- [16:11]
A
So I'm lucky in that respect. I can do this profit passion project for, for a living, make a decent salary, pay people well, you know, and it's, it's a great place to be. But gosh, if you're a traditional magazine right now and you've been relying on clicks for those kind of, you know, very kind of, you know, we all do it, we all click on them, but they're gone. When was the last time you typed anything into Google?
- [16:38]
B
Yeah, completely.
- [16:40]
A
Yeah.
- [16:40]
B
Typing things into Google and just clicking on random stuff, I just don't do anywhere near as much anymore. Which again, I do think will improve the quality of things.
- [16:49]
A
Is it a case of the cream rising to the top?
- [16:51]
B
Yeah, totally, yeah. I think you'll get really good quality stuff and people won't put all their money into getting ridiculous headlines. They'll actually do some decent, Decent stuff behind it. And there's still a lot of that around.
- [17:05]
A
Yeah, yeah, gotcha. There's still. There's a lot of great writing. I love what the New Yorker did. They made that kind of magazine a brand, didn't they? Something that was aspirational.
- [17:14]
B
Definitely. Yeah. There's loads of interesting stuff, but I do think. I mean, it's. It's changing faster now than I feel it's ever have done ever before, but I think it's really exciting.
- [17:25]
A
Yeah, I'm very positive and optimistic about it as well. I've always enjoyed the disruptive nature of our industry and what's next and how do we pivot and how can I make sure I'm, you know, staying. Staying up to date with everything.
- [17:41]
B
Yeah.
- [17:41]
A
Oh, my goodness. And do you. Do you use chat, GPT and other tools to sort of help you do that? Because I find that it's become my little. Yeah, my little mentor, my coach, my business coach, my strategy.
- [17:55]
B
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I think it'd be crazy not to use it. It's so useful. If you ask the right really specific questions and you get into the right train of thought, it's really, really good. It all depends again, how you use it. If we used it to write things, we can use it to say, well, I've got these thoughts on this thing that I'd like to do. Could you expand that? Could you give me a framework for this? I think that's really good use of AI. But if we actually used it to write things, most of the publications we go to have got AI filters. And if you're ever seen to have any sort of. You just send AI stuff over, they'll reject it.
- [18:32]
A
Yes.
- [18:32]
B
You can't send things through to Forbes and FastCo and Creative Boom. Yeah, that are just written by ChatGPT, because you could spot it and the style and it's not. It loses the whole thing.
- [18:42]
A
So there are PR agencies doing that.
- [18:44]
B
I'm sure there must be, because it's so easy to do. Like you. You could increase the amount of clients, like tenfold, couldn't you? And just bang stuff out. But it's not sustainable. And they're not actually going to be around doing that in a year or two, are they? Because everyone can tell.
- [18:59]
A
It's funny because we go back to the human element. What works when you go back to traditional pr? What? That's always worked throughout time, no matter what's happening outside of that realm, it's. It's the human connection. I was always taught by my PR manager, make, you know, make relationships, get to know people, find out what their kids are called, you know, ask them how their holiday in France was, you know.
- [19:24]
B
Yeah, absolutely, completely. It makes a big difference, doesn't it? People want to form connections with people.
- [19:32]
A
Yeah.
- [19:32]
B
They don't want AI written stuff everywhere. And, like, if you knew a publication, even if it had some interesting stuff was completely written by AI, you just wouldn't read it.
- [19:41]
A
No, you wouldn't. And I think it was sort of going that way anyway. There was a lot of clickbait on the web and people were just sick of it. You know, five. Five hacks for this and, you know, we do it. We do a little bit of that on Creative Boom. Because, you know, we need to get the traffic and to spark people's curiosity. But I would rather call them, like, five hacks. Yeah. I'd rather call them open loops, where we spark curiosity and emotion.
- [20:06]
B
Definitely.
- [20:07]
A
And get people to think about. Okay, you know, like, 25 design agencies that you think are the best as voted by the community, which got a ton of traffic, as you can imagine, and lots of people going, why aren't we on there?
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B
Yeah, I've heard quite a lot of that myself.
- [20:25]
A
Well, this is why we ask the community, so we can say nothing to do with us.
- [20:29]
B
Yes. It's not my fault. That's. No, completely.
- [20:33]
A
Yeah.
- [20:33]
B
But, yeah, the. I think it does. Just because I'm saying that it's. It's going to stop a lot of the sort of sloppy journalism and sloppy PR agencies and stuff like that. It's still. I use it so much in my life, I still probably use it. The app I use most on my phone.
- [20:50]
A
Got it.
- [20:51]
B
Yes, that. An email just, I don't know, buy the right things and go to the right places and even when we're on holiday, it's really sad. I was just like, oh, my God, we've got, I don't know, half a day in Avignon. What's the best thing to do in three hours? And I'm like, all right, we should do that, that and that, and then we should go there for lunch. And it's really, really good.
- [21:10]
A
Imagine it in sort of a couple of years time when it's integrated into everything.
- [21:15]
B
Yeah, yeah, completely.
- [21:17]
A
So it won't be like this separate thing, it'll just be integrated into your email. It'll be into. Well, it's already happening now, isn't it?
- [21:23]
B
It's already happening. Exactly. You've got the pilot and all that kind of stuff.
- [21:27]
A
But it sounds so naive when I.
- [21:28]
B
Talk about AI, you know, but I kind of. Surely most people do because there isn't one person that I listen to so many podcasts about people talking about it and I don't think anyone can have. You've just got your opinion on it really, haven't you?
- [21:43]
A
Yes. You can listen to lots of highbrow stuff and there's plenty of great content around if you really want to dive into what's happening and how things are changing and you can see it from both sides. There's a lot of cynics, quite rightly, and optimism about it too. I like to take the optimistic approach. I do wonder if there is a bubble that's about to burst because this whole thing costs a lot of money and they're just the hemorrhaging cash, they're not profitable yet. So I do wonder if there's going to be another dot com bubble moment. But where's the Internet?
- [22:16]
B
Yeah. How can that be? Exactly. How can that be sustainable?
- [22:19]
A
But look at the Internet. It's still here, isn't it?
- [22:22]
B
Exactly.
- [22:23]
A
So it'll be. AI will still be around. I think it'll just be a different version.
- [22:28]
B
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. There's got to be something that can reduce the amount of power it takes and go from there. Yeah, yeah. I was listening to Mo Gold, Mo Gaudette. Have you ever heard about.
- [22:37]
A
Yes, he does.
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B
I listened to one of his podcasts a couple of weeks ago about. He's really not very positive about it at all and thinks it's. He thinks it's going to massively nose dive and huge numbers of people are going to lose their jobs and then it's going to sort of go up from there.
- [22:51]
A
Right. I think I. I think I listened to part of that.
- [22:54]
B
It was the Diary of CEO one. He's done a few with Diary of a CEO.
- [22:58]
A
Yes.
- [22:59]
B
And this most recent one, he was. I think he was head of Google X, wasn't he? And from a tech point of view, I can see how it's happening and I can see how that would happen.
- [23:08]
A
Yeah.
- [23:09]
B
From a design point of view, actually I can see how the lower. You can't really just produce sort of low end design anymore. You've got to work your way up the chain to be successful as opposed in design.
- [23:22]
A
I think there was an article that he wrote as well, or there was an interview along a similar thread and I think. Was it him talking about how like all those kind of junior roles have currently gone? Because if you think about it from a PR agency point of view, if there are PR agencies writing those sort of, you know, you know, the press releases which have to be adjusted and adapted for all the different regions of the UK or whatever, and does anyone, does anyone do that anymore? So they don't get the junior PR executives in, so what the hell are they going to do when they need more middle management?
- [23:57]
B
That's it. It's not sustainable, isn't it?
- [23:59]
A
It's not. It's a bubble.
- [24:02]
B
Yeah. You can make a lot of money out of it, I'm sure now for the next year or two, but if you haven't got the genius learning the craft and it's not sustainable business model.
- [24:10]
A
Absolutely. So I think when people talk about jobs going, I think a lot will, but I think it'll also create lots of new opportunities. Just like any technology that comes along does, you know, behaves in that way. But I just feel like this is probably the biggest shake up.
- [24:29]
B
Yeah, definitely.
- [24:31]
A
So how do you see the decline of traditional media shaping the role of PR going forward? Are we now more like publishers ourselves? Is everybody a content creator?
- [24:43]
B
Yeah, that's a good question. I think everyone is a content creator to a certain degree. But as always, I think it's always going to be a very similar situation that some people just get more attention than others. You're always going to get influences rising to the top, but people are always going to be top news sources at the top as well. Like, I'll always read the BBC and the New York Times and I think I will let something massively shift, but they'll always be like those ones that I just go to as a trusted source of, of information.
- [25:14]
A
Now this is interesting because I. The funny thing is, I've started blogging again on my own personal website, katiecowan.co.uk have you?
- [25:22]
B
I have. Oh, I'll have to check that out. I didn't know that, but.
- [25:25]
A
Well, now this is going to make you laugh. After you said that, everything I write, I look back, even just a month later and think, oh, my God, I sound so naive. So much has changed since then. You feel like you have to put a caveat on every article and say, by the way, I will probably have changed my mind on all of this.
- [25:40]
B
In a month's time completely.
- [25:42]
A
Because you're just constantly learning and things are shifting so fast that. So I. I wrote an article A while ago, I think. I think it still stands. And I was talking about influencers. I wasn't being like that grumpy, traditional journalist in the Netherlands.
- [25:58]
B
You've become that older person. Yeah.
- [26:00]
A
It's like, who do these people think they are? Why are they making money? And I'm not. It's not fair. Yeah, maybe a little bit. But, yeah, we. You know me, I'm not going to be anything but hon. But, yeah, I wrote a blog post and I was saying, I think, you know, the days of influencers is coming to an end. Not because the influencers aren't great at what they do, they're brilliant, but because I think there is a fatigue setting in that people are just so fed up with people going, oh, here is my amazing life and my amazing flat and my amazing clothes and they were gifted by this brand. So it all feels really fake and it. It doesn't feel real. So I think.
- [26:43]
B
But Gen Z, genuine influences. Yeah. I think genuine influencers will be the ones that, I don't know, people that have been paid God knows how many hundreds of thousands of pounds by a company to promote stuff or to do all that kind of stuff. I think will fade because people see through it. I think. I was talking to. I did a wine tour at the weekend of Tour of Sussex Vineyards.
- [27:05]
A
Nice.
- [27:06]
B
Which is really, really fun. And there was a wine writer on it who was super lovely and she was saying to me that. So she's probably about my age now, she's sort of like late 40s, and she's saying her and her friends are kind of looking at the generation below that are all coming through and are starting to get really good gigs writing for the Guardian, for the wine protection of the Guardian, stuff like that, and it's no longer good enough. She's like, it kind of. It's completely derailed her way of thinking because it's no longer good enough for her just to be a really good wine writer. She's now got to have the Social Channel and she's got to have all the contacts and she's got to be a place that people go to for information. Was in the past. She just wrote really good articles and said, it's turned into, like, you've got to have a whole lifestyle to go with it.
- [27:48]
A
It's incredible.
- [27:50]
B
Yeah. She wasn't actually moaning about it. She was kind of saying, it's really interesting. Like, do I shift? Do I not shift? Is it just something new? Can we exist together? It's.
- [27:58]
A
Yeah, it's so interesting. Spending A couple of, you know, not hours, but half an hour on TikTok and looking through the content and what people are sharing now. Yeah, I was sat in my hairdresser, and there's a lovely girl in there. She's called Jessica. She's one of the junior staff. And when she's sort of washing my hair or making me a cup of tea, I always talk to her about TikTok and tell her what I'm doing with creative Boom. And she says, yeah, that's good, that's nice. Content looks nice, but just be more natural. Just like, just start recording and just don't even edit it and just start twitching. And she's like, these graphics are really nice, but just make it scrappy. Just don't worry about all that.
- [28:40]
B
A bit overdone almost of like, you need to be like, look, you've just jumped on the camera and got out of bed and done it.
- [28:46]
A
Well, I'm in our generation where we. We grew up thinking, oh, everything has to be stylized and curated and we've got to have a. Well, there's obviously got to be a strategy behind everything, but we've got to. We've got to do this, we've got to do that. So to get yourself out of that thinking and mindset, it takes a while. I mean, I look at some of the videos I tried to do last year, and they were just so clunky and awkward and staged.
- [29:13]
B
Really, I love your style now. I think what you're doing is really, really good.
- [29:16]
A
Well, it's because I don't give two. I don't give two monkeys, to be honest. I'm just.
- [29:21]
B
That's the way you've got to be, isn't it?
- [29:22]
A
I think. I think through it, you've just got to be genuine. You've just got to be yourself. I think the realization that because there is so much content out there and so many people are doing this, you. You sit back and you go, if you. If you sort of try and strategize your. Your Persona online, it's just not gonna work. You're just gonna sound like everybody else. So I thought, yeah, I'm just gonna be me. I'm just gonna warts and all the deafness, all the silliness, I'm just gonna have fun. And it's actually a joy to be now at this stage, after what. What would you say? 15 years of this gradual climb to where we were, and now, actually, one of the things I'm thankful for with AI is that we get to have A bit more kind of punk again.
- [30:11]
B
Yeah, totally.
- [30:13]
A
Yeah.
- [30:13]
B
Yeah, that's true. I was talking to friends about that the weekend of. She was worried it's going to be the downfall of all of us, that it's going to be absolutely terrible. And I was just like this. I can totally see the concerns. I get it. But there's also an argument that it could definitely just. It democratizes everyone. So everyone's got access to the same tools and everyone's got me. Not the same tools, but I know it can start quickly and get there more quickly and it kind of. It levels things up a little bit.
- [30:42]
A
Yeah.
- [30:42]
B
Hopefully we'll see.
- [30:44]
A
Gives everyone a chance.
- [30:45]
B
Yeah.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah. It's like having a little brainstorming team in your pocket, isn't it? It's.
- [30:50]
B
Yeah.
- [30:51]
A
Incredible. I used to. I used to get in touch with my old Prince director and say to him, oh, I've got this campaign I'm going to do for a client. I need some ideas. I can't think of anything. My brain's just like. Because I'm doing all these different things at once. What do you think we should come up with? He would give me ideas now I'm sending him the ideas for a laugh that AI spits out and he's like, this isn't. He's just signed up, actually. This is incredible. He's retired, but he's just signed up so he can play with it. He just thinks it's amazing. This season is brought to you by James Cropper, a mill that's been shaping color and creativity from the heart of the Lake District since 1845. Their new color source range lets you choose from 50 shades in different weights and textures straight from the source. Stunning paper made by craftspeople who live among the mountains that inspire their colors. Explore the full range at paperandpackaging.james cropper.com so niche platforms and creators, if they've replaced the authority that big media outlets once had, and maybe that's too bold a statement.
- [32:01]
B
Yeah.
- [32:01]
A
Is it a different kind of power, do you think? Do you think. Do you think they have replaced it?
- [32:06]
B
No, I don't think they have replaced it, but I think. I think the. The big platforms will always be there and the big authority, the news authorities and stuff, that will always be there, but they've definitely added in. But then, I mean, it's hard to argue. It's so big, isn't it? It's hard to argue. You go back to, like, classic examples like Brexit and stuff like that. If you look at how people were reached and communicated with. Through social. And this is before AI and anything like that, or kind of before the way it's used right now. It's. What's my point? Hold on, I have to go back to that.
- [32:38]
A
It's because, you know what? It's because our brains have just been so, you know, overwhelmed by all this shift.
- [32:46]
B
It's what's believable, isn't it? What's the truth? So whether people believe yet, hence the Brexit reference. And you'll get there in the end, but yeah, what's believable? What's the truth? What's the. How can you. How can you rely on things? How can you believe what's going on anymore? And some people, I still think there's a massive place for what's been there in the past. I think surely there's got to be other. Other things coming through, like what you're trying to do with creative boom. What you are doing with creative boom of coming a really trusted source of information. Surely there's got to be other things like that. I always think there should be like a new national newspaper started up that would be great. Yeah. That isn't run by all the big media moguls and stuff like that. That isn't sort of correct. I know they're not all like that. But just something. Yeah. Something completely new and refreshing that I'd like to read.
- [33:36]
A
Yeah. Something neutral and maybe a bit more critical.
- [33:41]
B
Yeah, totally.
- [33:42]
A
It's tough though, isn't it? Because, like, journalism gone through. It has gone through a hell of a lot. Yeah. You know, and the advertisers are elsewhere. Google and Facebook took up all the. The kind of money, didn't it? And didn't they rather. And. And left lots of platforms thinking, good grief. And even now, like the Guardian still has its sort of campaign to get you to sign up and support great journalism.
- [34:09]
B
Yeah, true.
- [34:10]
A
When did they start that? That was back in like 2010 maybe. Was it? Or was it earlier than that?
- [34:15]
B
Was it that long ago? Maybe it was. It's as long as I can remember with the Guardian app.
- [34:21]
A
Well, this is how old I am. I graduated in 2000. And in our final year of university, bearing in mind we were the first course to use digital kind of tools for editing and recording and all the rest of it. Prior to that you had to use tape and you had to cut the tape and stick it back together again for broadcast journalism.
- [34:44]
B
Oh, my God. That seems crazy now, doesn't it?
- [34:47]
A
It's a. It doesn't feel like a very long time ago.
- [34:50]
B
That's.
- [34:50]
A
That's what's crazy about it. But the final year you could either go into print, broadcast or online. And there were about 10 people who went into online and all of us print and broadcast journalists were just mocking them because at that time we were just using Google to search for naked men and doing. Doing things that 18 year olds do. Me and a few girls sat in. I think I was one of the only ones who had Internet in my bedroom. We were the first year to get Internet.
- [35:21]
B
I didn't have Internet. I graduated in 97 and I definitely didn't have Internet in my. I don't think we had it. Must have had it in the house. I can't remember.
- [35:30]
A
Must have done dial up when you had to go. And it would go, yeah, it was.
- [35:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, total dial up stuff. I think we might have only had these kids.
- [35:36]
A
Don't know. They were go, we are, we are old, but we look amazing. So it's okay.
- [35:44]
B
That's the main thing.
- [35:47]
A
Absolutely. What happened in Lancaster, stays in Lancaster.
- [35:54]
B
Northern Design Festival tales can never come out.
- [35:57]
A
They can never come out. If you're listening, Northern Design Festival crew, there will be a knock on the door if anything is ever revealed. Anyway, so if search and social are changing so fast with AI at the wheel, what impact do you think that's going to have on how stories get discovered in future? Is it about like, if you had somebody come to you with a campaign, you would obviously still try to target some of those larger, established, credible media?
- [36:28]
B
Yeah, of course, yeah. I think it's just about mixing it up, including. I think it's always got to start with the audience. So rather than. You can get so confused by looking at the media landscape and what's going on and we're seeing what if you look at the audience and look at who's going to be interested in what they're talking about in the first place, who are they trying to reach? How do these people get their information? Then that's where you go. I think that's always going to be the case and where you go will change. But generally, I mean, still the business press and the main source to the business press, getting our clients into that sort of like Forbes, FastCo, FT, all that kind of stuff is always going to be, always going to be, as much as you can say that for the foreseeable future, super important.
- [37:14]
A
It gives me hope.
- [37:16]
B
Yeah, it's putting design in a place that it's talking about it as a proper Business tool. And it's hopefully changing people's opinions on maybe if anyone doesn't have the opinion that design can be a really effective business tool, get it in those places in front of business people and they can see that. Yeah, it's unarguable.
- [37:37]
A
Absolutely. Did you see that LinkedIn the other day has changed the algorithm a little bit to favor instead real deep and meaningful conversation.
- [37:49]
B
Oh, has it? No, I missed this. That's interesting.
- [37:52]
A
It was actually a press release that came through that somebody sent. They were like asking, do you want us to do a thought piece on this? And I was like, that's really interesting because the things that I found that work really well on there for us are the kind of human LED stories and having more of a kind of face to things. And I think they're really leaning into that now because of all the AI slop. Because you know when people have written their updates on there using chat GPT.
- [38:23]
B
You know what? Yes, I completely agree with you. And if we'd have recorded this last week, I would have said completely. You can just tell it's awful. And generally it is. However, Mike Reid posted something. Mike from Read Words?
- [38:37]
A
Yes.
- [38:38]
B
He's brilliant copywriter. He posted something yesterday, the day before, talking about how he has been doing a trial of writing posts to AI and he's taught his AI to write as him and they've been his most successful posts ever and people haven't realized it's not him and he's got more engagement than ever before. And I was like, oh, this completely now blows my mind.
- [39:02]
A
So that's interesting because that's a copywriter embracing a tool that might replace him.
- [39:07]
B
Yeah, completely. I think you've got to, haven't you?
- [39:09]
A
You have. Yeah. That's. That's incredible.
- [39:11]
B
You just sit back and say this is all awful and stay away from it. I don't think you're going to be around for much longer. Not, not literally around for much longer, but maybe not doing the job.
- [39:20]
A
I was looking at some of the old technology from our day, Claire, from our day. It's incredible looking at the old computers and the little gadgets, the things that we used to save our university coursework on.
- [39:36]
B
Yeah. Oh my God.
- [39:38]
A
My God. And think of all the jobs that kind of got disrupted when the computer came in or when Facebook became popular. And I remember I was in a newsroom in Birmingham and there were eight journalists. And then literally overnight there were, you know, it was reduced down to three, I think, and they got rid of the entire. There Used to be like a whole room full of salespeople selling advertising just disappeared overnight. It was crazy, the whole thing.
- [40:08]
B
Yeah. Of course, I used to work in a company that had that and massive sort of ad sales departments that you don't hear of people working in anymore.
- [40:14]
A
They were great fun. I used to go in there at lunchtime and just, just go around and be cheeky and talk to some of my favorite people and. Oh, they were good days. It was just, it was a shame what happened to radio. Everything got merged and reduced down and. And then podcasting, so.
- [40:30]
B
Exactly. Something came out of it.
- [40:33]
A
Yeah.
- [40:33]
B
Creativity always happens, doesn't it? Finds a way.
- [40:36]
A
It really does. It really does. If you were talking to any of us, like anybody listening to this, in our case, it's creatives who in a lot of cases run their own businesses. What should they be focusing on with their own communications and like building their own reputation? Do they have to go on TikTok and you know, God, that's such a millennial thing to say and dance.
- [41:03]
B
What sort of platform should they be focusing on? Got social platforms? I'd say the only thing currently that's really worth doing is LinkedIn and Instagram. Yeah, TikTok. We did a research project on this recently, actually, of agencies that are on it at the moment and who's using it. And like Jessica Walsh is using it really well and there's a few people using it well. But I still don't think, unless it's your own personal passion, the amount of time you have to put in to do it. Well, I don't think it's worth it.
- [41:32]
A
Yeah.
- [41:35]
B
I mean, they're the two social platforms again. The thing that's changing is I was reading a survey, I was looking for some evidence behind this because I was talking to a client about it recently. A year ago, a survey came out saying that 47% of marketers find their agencies, their design agencies through generative AI. That was a year ago. And I would be surprised if it wasn't like 85, 90% now that just find it through generative AI. But if you look at ChatGPT and look at the sources it comes up with, it doesn't search social, so it's never going to cite LinkedIn or Instagram or anything like that. It cites media coverage, so it's always awards or lists or creative boom, top 25 or that kind of thing. Articles out there in the press that get cited.
- [42:22]
A
Yeah.
- [42:22]
B
So if you, if you're really going to focus on something, getting into, getting into the press and getting outside of social media, I think is going to be really, really important because that's what it uses to look through at the moment.
- [42:34]
A
It's so incredible. Like, we have spent years, haven't we, getting our heads around SEO. The perfect triangle, the trust, authority, the content.
- [42:43]
B
Exactly.
- [42:43]
A
And it's amazing how that's been translated across to AI. So actually that work that we've put in hasn't gone to waste. It's still there. Yeah, I put into. I was just experimenting when I was thinking about, what do they call it? Gem. Generative. Oh, God, I've forgotten that. I'm gonna have to look this up. I'm gonna have to. I'm gonna have to look this up. It's gem. Like, oh, no, it's geo. Sorry. God, my brain. I blame my Generative Engine Optimization. So it's like SEO, but you're generating, you're optimizing for AI. I apologize, listeners. I'm going through the change now and again. My. Now again, my brain goes dead. I'm using it as an excuse forever.
- [43:30]
B
Yeah, exactly. It can be an excuse forever. I'm with you.
- [43:34]
A
So I asked when, when AI first came out, obviously my first reaction was, well, there were many kind of takes I had on it, but I was worried about my creative audience. I was like, oh, my God, this is terrible. I need to support them. I need to be completely anti AI. And then obviously, as time went on, it became transpired that actually the. As with everything in life, there's a nuance, there's a. There's. Some of my audience are using these tools, some absolutely despise it and want nothing to do with it. And a lot of those people who are against it may well find that they, you know, end up having to.
- [44:10]
B
Learn bits of it.
- [44:11]
A
Yeah. And I'm treading, I'm treading lightly. I'm. Because I'm like, please don't hate me. I have your best interests at heart. The thing is, I can't remember what my point was now. Oh, yes. And I asked my husband Tom, who's the developer, he's the sort of the silent partner that does all the kind of development work. I'm very lucky to have him. I feed him with chocolate and beer and occasional tech gifts. Can you just do this? Definitely, yeah, definitely. Can you just update this again? And I said to him, I think we need to block the robots, AI robots from crawling our website. And he said, sure, I'll put it on the job list. And then about a year later, after reading an article saying you've got to allow these things to crawl your website because if you want to be found with people searching on LLMs, then you need to be found. And I asked Thomas, oh shit, did you ever block AI? And he went, oh no, I never got around to it. I was like, oh, thank God, thank.
- [45:17]
B
God, thank God for that.
- [45:18]
A
But then know all the complicated, oh, it's not black and white, is it? I was like, oh, but then all my audience's stuff's on there and oh God, I feel dirty.
- [45:29]
B
But yeah, but that's the whole thing, isn't it, what you're doing? It's hard, you've got to be found.
- [45:34]
A
Yeah. I want people to get the exposure but at the same time, ah.
- [45:38]
B
So yeah, it's all dangerous.
- [45:40]
A
Yeah, a bit of a mind fuck.
- [45:41]
B
But yeah, it is a bit of a mind fuck.
- [45:43]
A
Yeah. Sorry for. So ironing. So, yeah, it, it's trying to get across to people that actually if we want to be found. The interesting thing with the studio, our private community, I asked them now, how did you find out about us? I would say about 40% find us through chat GPT.
- [46:01]
B
Really?
- [46:02]
A
Yeah.
- [46:02]
B
Wow, that's interesting. How many thousands of people have you got on it now? It's loads.
- [46:06]
A
Last time it's coming up to. By the time this comes out it'll probably be over 6,000.
- [46:11]
B
Wow, really?
- [46:12]
A
Yeah, since February.
- [46:13]
B
Really cool.
- [46:13]
A
It's brilliant, isn't it?
- [46:15]
B
Yeah, really good community and all coming.
- [46:17]
A
Here for the same reason. They're just absolutely fed up with social media, really tired of it and they want that genuine connection again.
- [46:24]
B
Yeah.
- [46:25]
A
So having a private space, I guess, makes it feel like it's a safe space.
- [46:31]
B
Yeah, safe space. Rather than the bravado you can get with things like LinkedIn and stuff like that.
- [46:36]
A
Absolutely. And the interesting thing is we have got brands, you know, sniffing around and saying, well, this is an interesting thing because they're obviously trying to find new opportunities to reach people and stay in people's minds and they're like, well, can, can we do something in the studio? And I'm like, yeah, sure, absolutely. But it has to be on our terms as always and it has to be something that's relevant to the, the community. And I've been very open with everybody on there, you know, this, this is the way I've always been. I say, look, I can either charge you because this thing costs a lot of money to keep going or we can just occasionally get some sponsors in.
- [47:17]
B
And do some brand new products, really trying to yeah. If you're trying to hammer home, sell someone something that's not relevant to them, but if it's something that's really relevant to the audience that they'll benefit from, like, why not?
- [47:29]
A
Yeah.
- [47:29]
B
It keeps it free for everyone.
- [47:31]
A
Yeah.
- [47:31]
B
People learn stuff, but they.
- [47:33]
A
They're. They're shaping the future of it. So this is what I mean. I think PR and marketing, the way it's moving forward, it's. It's actually, even though there's, you know, it's not so black and white, there's a lot of things that need to sort of be ironed out with AI. And the way search and social is changing too. But actually, I can see this really optimistic future mapped out. It's bringing us all back together again. Don't you think?
- [47:58]
B
I love that. Absolutely love that. That's what I meant by talking about subscription models. Not necessarily charging in that way, but the New York Times, if it doesn't really hunker down and think, who's my audience and what do they want? And then come up with brilliant content and brilliant journalism, it won't be.
- [48:16]
A
Yeah.
- [48:16]
B
So I think it's really reconnecting people and getting rid a lot of the rubbish that's out there. There'll always be loads of rubbish out there. There's always stuff you can focus in on, but I think it might make things better.
- [48:26]
A
Absolutely. And that's a really nice positive note to end on. Claire, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much.
- [48:33]
B
Katie, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it. I always enjoy speaking to you, but this has been really fun.
- [48:38]
A
We'll see each other in McDonald's again soon. That's it for today's conversation with Claire Blyth. If there's one big takeaway for me, it's this. No matter how fast technology moves, PR still comes back to people building trust, making connections and telling stories that actually matter. Human. Human is the future. If you enjoyed this episode, please do me a favor. Leave a review, share it with a friend and help us spread the word. It makes such a difference in helping more creatives discover the show. And don't forget, we'll be back on Thursday with our bonus episode, the Spark, where Claire joins me again for some fun silliness and a little bit of madness. Thanks again to James Copper for sponsoring this season of the Creative Boom podcast. Remember, its Colour Source range gives designers direct access to 50 beautiful shades and a choice of textures, all crafted in the Lake District and delivered straight to your door. Explore the collection and bring your next project to life@paperandpackaging.jamescopper.com.