← The Creative Boom Podcast
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- [00:07]
A
Today, I'm joined by the brilliant Emily Penny, a brand strategist, writer and the founder of Be Colourful, her own brand voice studio. Emily has been shaping brands for over 25 years, working with the kinds of businesses that live and breathe people, consultants, agencies, communities and social enterprises. She's someone who doesn't just talk branding, she teaches it too, having lectured at London Metropolitan University. And she's developed her own framework Brand Strand, which gives studios and businesses fresh ways to position themselves. Last year, she put that thinking to work on Fully Saturated, a major report that she co authored on how branding agencies are presenting themselves. And let's just say the results are very interesting. What I love about Emily is that she's not afraid to hold a mirror up to our industry and ask the difficult questions, the ones we often avoid. Why do so many agencies look and sound the same? What's driving this fear of standing out and how do we fix it? That's exactly what we get into today. Along with her advice for any creative business trying to carve out a space that feels authentic, distinctive and brave. This season of the Creative Boom podcast is proudly sponsored by James Cropper. The last mill standing in Britain for premium coloured paper. Its new colour source range puts designers first, giving you direct access to 50 stunning shades in a range of weights and textures. Straight from the mill, incredible colour crafted in the Lake District and delivered straight to your door. Discover the paper that brings your ideas to life via paper and packaging.james cropper.com Emily Penny.
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B
Katie Cohen.
- [02:11]
A
Now, just for the purpose of our listeners, I have to tell everybody what's happening. So the last time I saw you, the first time I saw you in the flesh, was it DNA D this summer? And I just saw you and I was like. For a second, I was like, is that Emily Penny? That's Emily Penny. Oh, my God, I love Emily Penny. So I just went, Emily Penny, I.
- [02:32]
B
Was standing right behind you, wasn't I? In a. In a talk. And I didn't realize it was you and then you just turned. You were like, here, right in front of me. So, yeah, that was lovely. That really was lovely to meet you.
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A
It was great. I like how you just went. Katie Cowan. Oh, it was lovely to see you. I was kind of. It was a bit of a first foray back out into the wild because of everything I've been through personally lately. So I was still not quite 100%. I was just full of joy and anybody I saw, I was just like, hi, hi, hi, I'm here.
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B
I think the vibe was really lovely at D and A D this year. Actually, I've not been to the festival before and, yeah, I loved it. I loved it. I caught up with so many people. It was lots of fun.
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A
So good. And of course, you're on a bit of a mission at the moment in that you are doing this incredible report, which is called fully saturated, and you're bringing all of your wealth of experience and skills to give feedback to branding agencies who. What are they all kind of looking the same? I mean, what's, what's the positioning that they're putting themselves through? And I guess we're going to talk about how they fix it, right?
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B
Yeah, well, I think, you know, none of this is news. Everybody knows that design agencies, creative agencies, aren't the best at sorting out their own brand. And so, you know, we, we talked to people and everybody was like, very clear that they. They were already aware of this. So we've audited a bunch of agencies. This is myself and Joel Stein, my collaborator on this project. We decided to limit it to branding agencies in the uk. We looked at hundreds and hundreds of websites, narrowed it down to 150, which we looked at in detail, and we wanted to really find who's doing it. Well, who's doing. We wanted to find 25 fantastic case studies of agencies of all sizes, big and small, from all over the country and look at, you know, who's really doing an inspiring job, who's standing out.
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A
Basically, because there are a lot of copycats. Right?
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B
Yeah. I mean, this is the thing, you know, I think there are famous kind of London agencies and agencies elsewhere that, you know, we all admire and they have fantastic businesses. But the. The problem is that when admiration then leads to a bit of a copycat mentality. And I think what, what we're trying to do with this report more than anything else is say, you know, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Not everybody needs to talk about the same messages and the same promises. So we've used my brand positioning framework called Brand Strand, which basically gives 18 different strategies. So it's kind of. This is a sort of generalized universal framework that says, look, there are 18 ways you can show up in any sector, and that includes design. So we're trying to. We've mapped the sector using that framework to just say, you've got options. I'm a huge believer in horses for courses. There's something for everybody. So, you know, we want agencies to really lean into what's special and different about them, genuinely, and amplify that yeah.
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A
It makes sense and it's clever because you can then offer your services and say, well, we can help and make it all happen.
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B
Well, we certainly can. But, yeah, I mean, I'm calling it therapy for a whole sector because.
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A
Therapy. Great.
- [06:32]
B
Because there are complicated reasons why this is happening and a lot of it is emotional and it is about a mindset. And this goes back to when, you know, a lot of these design businesses are of course, founded by designers. They've come out of design school where everything is about the portfolio. When you go and get a job for the first time, it's all about the portfolio. And this portfolio mentality stays with people, I think. So we, I mean, portfolios are really, really important. But what we're trying to encourage is for studios to see. See themselves as a brand, which means creating that wonderful wrapper, that promise, that ethos, which is all the good stuff that these agencies are doing for their clients. So there's really, there's kind of no excuse, but we know that there are, there are reasons why this isn't happening and some of them are quite kind of serious reasons. I mean, it comes down to fear a lot of it. It's, you know, when a fragile market, we're also very conditioned to slightly always be on the back foot in the procurement process and jumping through all those hoops. And I think it's just, it's stilted people and stopped them from really being the. What they could be.
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A
Yeah, leaning into that fear aspect again. I kind of think if you're in such a bubble where it's very creative, very competitive and there aren't very many differentiators, you are naturally going to play it safe. You're going to copy somebody else who looks like they've got the formula right. A bit like the old cargo cult, which I'm sure you're aware of.
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B
Yeah, I mean, there's. There's the copying those who are already being successful and there's. There's the fear of being put in a box. There's fear of, you know, niching too much and actually putting clients off. That's what people talked about a lot in the, in the survey that we did. But I think there's something else going on, which is about the fact that creatives really care about what their peers think. And it's very close community. Being creative is very personal thing. It's very tied up with your personal identity. And so there's also this kind of paralyzing fear of what are my peers going to think? What's the design community going to make of this. And there's something a little bit grubby about being too marketing and being too kind of commercial when you put your studio out there. And there's good reasons for this as well because people need to attract staff, they need to attract great designers too. So that's also a really important audience.
- [09:39]
A
Where does that come from though? Is that by seeing the responses sometimes on social media when a big brand identity project drops?
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B
I think it's just a very, very close knit community and people know that other studios and their design colleagues and let's be honest, designers are moving between agencies all the time. It's the same pool, especially in the uk, it's a small community that is moving between these agencies. So they're very aware of what that community thinks and about how it reflects on their personal brand.
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A
I remember 10 years ago everybody was talking about Design Studio. Now these days everyone's talking about Koto. It's quite interesting. Did you ask in the survey who do you look up to? Who do you admire?
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B
Yes, we did. And the same names came up again and again. I mean the number one name was Dixon Baxie. And that kind of makes sense because Dixon Baxie is consciously talking to the design community. You know, they are building their brand from the inside out and it's, it's that, that kind of internal focus that really resonates I think with, with designers compared to maybe other studios that have, have more of an external sort of commercial, obviously commercial outlook, certainly on social media anyway. And of course there are lots of other ways to show up and find clients apart from LinkedIn.
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A
Yeah, Simon Dixon's very clever at updating on LinkedIn and really makes you feel like he understands the pain and the suffering that you have to go through when you're building a design career or a design studio. And I think that resonates and it gets people talking and it keeps everybody, it keeps Dixon Baxie in everybody's minds. Of all the talks that I've done recently on the studio that was by far the most popular with Simon.
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B
Yeah, I'm not surprised. It was certainly an agency that came up as very well loved when we talked to people. But one of the things that we were really passionate about doing was bringing on earthing some unsung gems and maybe some small studios from all different parts of the uk. I mean we found some really exciting examples. Like for instance, we've got a studio called Art is My Career which is based in Selby. And the difference here is that they don't just talk about working for social good or working for purposeful brands. They're really doing it. They're actually investing their own profits in different causes. It's living the promise rather than just throwing the words out there. We found some, you know, we've got agencies like, for instance, the Behaviors Agency, which you may know is up in Manchester, and they're really leading with behavioral science. Now, this isn't something that we saw a lot of people talking about at all, but it's a really interesting angle. And what else have we got? I mean, we've got interesting new models like Small World, which is kind of turning that remote and distributed sort of structure into a virtue and promising to be more innovative and more in touch with culture as. As a result. So I think there's. There's just so many different ways, there are so many different angles. We've even got, I mean, you'll know Lucky Dip, a relatively new small agency, but, you know, the, the wonderful line that they have on their website is that they're a creative studio where building great brands is an undeniably good time.
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A
Is that Katie Cadwell?
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B
It is.
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A
Oh, and her colleague. I can't remember her name, forgive me.
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B
And, you know, why shouldn't enjoyment, why shouldn't having a good time be a valid promise for the right client? That's going to tick all the boxes. You know, we don't all have to be promising. Brand transformation and effectiveness, those things are important, but they're kind of. That's the job. That's all branding does. So unless that's really your thing and you can back it up, I mean, effectiveness. There are agencies, I mean, Elmwood always used to be championing effectiveness. I think they've slightly changed their positioning, but they were leading the DBA league tables for a long time. Not sure if they still are. But effectiveness is the right positioning for. For the right agency. But it's not the only option.
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A
What did you find that was the most common in the way people positioned themselves?
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B
It was a couple of things. One was effectiveness and another was empowerment. So these are all labels from my Braun Strand positioning framework. So they're kind of. They're labels for sort of buckets of ideas. But we had this positioning around empowerment, which shows up a lot and for good reasons because, of course, design and branding is empowering clients, it's enabling them to reach their goals. But again, it's right for the right agency, but not the only option we've got. There are other. There's going to be Things like credibility, heritage, the quality and the craft of the work. We see studios like Crush down in Brighton, whose tagline is honor the craft. And while craft isn't necessarily a very ownable word in the design sector, they've done everything they can to own it and to make that promise. Absolutely unmissable.
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A
Brilliant. So you shared some really good examples of alternative positioning strategies. But if there's a studio or designer listening to this and they're thinking, God, you know, where do I start? How do I kind of find the thing that'll make me stand out? What would you say would be a good starting point?
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B
Well, I think positioning should always be something that already exists in the studio. We're not looking to invent anything, so we're looking to find that nugget, that truth that already exists. It's your genuine strength. But the key thing is that we're looking to amplify it. So sometimes it's very hard to see what that genuine strength and point of difference is when you're in it. It's that thing of. It's hard to sort of see the label when you're. If you're in the job, but it will be there. So asking clients is a good starting point. Doing a survey, that can be very revealing. It's something that we've just done for an agency in London and they thought that their clients had a particular perception of them. And our conversations with those clients revealed something quite different. So it's. It's really interesting where it's. I mean, it's obvious, isn't it? Start with the audience, talk to the audience, ask them what they think.
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A
This season of the Crater Boom podcast is proudly supported by James Cropper. Innovating with paper since 1845, that's nearly two centuries of color expertise in material science now distilled into the their new colour source range. It's a designer's dream. 50 created shades, premium quality, sustainable production. All made in Britain. See how tradition and innovation come together at paper and packaging.james cropper.com what do you think of Creative Boom?
- [18:21]
B
Oh, goodness. I mean, creative boom I have known for such a long time and I mean, sort of almost from when you started. So, you know, a brand is a reputation. A brand is very connected to the people behind it. So, you know, it's definitely not just about having a snappy tagline and, you know, a brand identity, it's that whole reputation, it's the product. And that's something that you've worked really hard on over many years and still.
- [19:01]
A
Working on, still figuring out. Because when you're in the eye of the storm, you don't often get time to take a step back and say, well, what is it that we are? And we're doing that a lot more. We've done it over the years and different fits and moments, like when there's been a rebrand or a new website design. But if any studio is listening to this, it's when I talk to a lot of people, I'm like, I haven't heard from you for ages. And I'm talking about big agencies around the world. They were just so busy. We haven't had time to put out case studies, we haven't had time to do this or that. So to then have to go through this exercise and say, well, actually, let's take a step back when you've got so many plates spinning must be quite daunting. And I can understand why it gets, you know, put to the back of the pile.
- [19:47]
B
Yes, absolutely. I mean, agencies are putting their client work first and it's a busy type of business. We need to be very responsive to clients, so it is highly understandable. But then it is what we expect of our clients. We expect them to carve the time out, to write the brief, to come to the presentations, to to be engaged in that process and to invest as well to invest in building their own brands. So it needs to be planned in, it needs to be resourced.
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A
Do you think they really need to pick a niche to succeed?
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B
It's a very common discussion, this one. And the thing is, what we're trying to do, if we're talking about seeing an agency as a brand, all that means is that we're trying to get really clear on what we want to be famous for. Now the mistake most people make is that they don't make it simple enough, so they don't make it unmissable. And we need an idea, we need a promise that's unmissable that you can become famous for. Now niching in a vertical sector in a particular category, that's a super simple thing to be famous for. So we looked at agencies like Stranger and Stranger, that focuses on alcoholic drinks. We've got edits, I think, who focus on arts and culture. And so it goes on. You know, there are agencies, boring agency, focused entirely on boring, B2B and industrial. And you know, it's a really effective strategy if it's right for your business, but it's not a requirement at all. There are lots of other ways to position an agency that mean you don't have to narrow your target market down to one sector. So, you know, we can think about, I mean, going back to the sort of lucky dip, sort of making the process an undeniably good time. We've got things like service, so client management and project management, or things like flexibility or being a one stop shop and offering everything in one place. You know, there's lots of different ways to cut it.
- [22:21]
A
The whole point of this is to get work. So it's, how do we sort of stand out when a big brand is looking to hire an agency?
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B
It's, it's. Yeah. Wow.
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A
So once you get this anchor right, then everything else you're marketing, your pr, the way you present yourself on social media, even if you're writing a substack, it should all just fall into place quite easily. A good positioning should just feel right in your gut, shouldn't it?
- [22:51]
B
Absolutely. And as, as we know, as, as we tell clients, branding is not selling. Branding makes selling easier, but it's not selling. But what happens in the world of agencies is that we just cut straight to the selling and it's because of that tendering, that procurement sort of process that we've been conditioned to just focus on the sell rather than the brand. But you know, if, if you build your brand, if you build that awareness and those associations, it's, I mean, tenders are, you know, it's rarely the case that tenders are entirely sort of a fair playing field and brand is your advantage. You need to, you need to have an upfront advantage to be known for somebody on the client side to be rooting for you way before the actual pitch.
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A
How do people feel about pitching these days?
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B
People are still pitching, people are still free pitching. I mean, nobody wants to be doing it and it's not something that I would ever do. But it's really a symptom of that power relationship in the market, the fact that clients can ask agencies to jump through hoops and they do so wherever possible. Try and build the relationship rather than just focusing on the pitch and the sales process. Step back and think about the wider marketing and attracting more inbound inquiries and people who already want to work for you.
- [24:46]
A
Absolutely. I mean, you've got to think of the client always anyway, haven't you? Because you want to see it from their mind, oh, these look perfect for me because they tick all these boxes. You don't want them to come onto the website and think, oh gosh, these, they probably are way too expensive for me or they're too cheap. There's a lot of science at play, isn't there? A lot of psychological elements that you have to think of?
- [25:10]
B
Yeah. And if they've seen you showing up in the press, if they've read your kind of content and articles that you're putting out there, then they know that you're coming to this with a point of view, that you've got an angle and you're not just another designer, you're not just one of many.
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A
Do awards still matter? Did they ever.
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B
Awards. Awards are complicated because they, they matter in a number of different ways, I think. I mean, obviously we got together at the DNA Day Festival this year and that was undeniably a really positive event and it really brought people together and it got people discussing what creativity means today and it's its place in the world. So sometimes I think awards are good for the team and just for how people are feeling. I don't know whether they're particularly effective at getting more reach or attracting more clients. It perhaps depends what kind of work that you do, but they certainly play a role. What I think is very sad about awards is that there are always many more losers than there are winners. And it's expensive, it's really expensive and I really feel for the studios, the smaller studios, who are spending their hard earned income on entering awards and not always getting anywhere. So again, I think it comes down to you can't do everything and that's what strategy is all about. It's sort of what, what are you going to choose to do? What's your, you know, either go all in if you're going to do awards, go all in on, on awards, be the award winner and, and win them. Yeah. But, you know, alternatively go all in on thought leadership or go all in on face to Face networking or, you know, you need to pick, pick your channels, pick what's right for your personality. We were talking about Simon Dixie earlier and you know, he likes to use LinkedIn and likes to put content out there and that, that if you choose something that's right for your personality, it's, it's going to be much easier to do. Much more enjoyable and much more effective at the end of the day.
- [27:48]
A
Absolutely. I like what Robot Food do in Leeds, which is a very interesting take. They every year take whatever money they would have spent, spent on award entries and put it towards two or three of their favourite charities, which I think is so clever and so nice.
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B
Yeah, I love that because it's turning the whole awards circus on its head and sort of, you know, playing it and getting noticed and recognized and people do discuss that.
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A
Yeah, it's an ongoing debate. It really is. It's one of those designs conversations. What stories then do you think really stand out in your top 25 agencies? I know you've mentioned a couple, but what about those top 25 that, you know, really kind of. Wow, this is really different. I've not seen this before.
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B
We've got some very big agencies. In our top 25 we have probably the biggest is interbrand actually and of the, of the kind of global London based agencies, it was one that really stood out because it has this very clear philosophy around iconic moves and they put out an awful lot of content and thought leadership around that and have the reports and the authority that backs it up. So that was definitely an interesting example. Then we've got the smallest kind of. We, we looked at any agencies that were two or more people. So we, you know, we looked at really small outfits as well. So we've got, for instance, who have we got? Let me see.
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A
I feel like this is a Tom Bowler moment.
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B
Yes, well, it's, it's been lovely speaking with them all and just saying you're, you're in our top 25 and you know, getting some feedback. I mean, I love the line that dawn has on their, on their website. Dawn is a design agency based in Stockport and they have a big line on the homepage which says, your brand is a sleeping giant. Let's wake it up.
- [30:14]
A
Oh, that's so nice. They've just gone for it.
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B
Yeah, it's ownable language. That's what we're looking for. What they're, what they're actually saying is that they help brands express themselves. You know, they help brands to, to wake up. And so many agencies bring, use that cliche line. You know, we, we bring brands to life. Essentially. It's the same message but they're saying it in such a poetic and ownable way that we had to include Dawn.
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A
Reminds me of fairy tales.
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B
You know, it's immediately visual and yeah, it stays with you.
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A
You don't feel like their office is in a little castle.
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B
It may well be.
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A
I hope so.
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B
Yes, it should be, shouldn't it? Definitely. Analog. Analog in Leeds.
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A
Yeah.
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B
A seriously playful brand and motion studio and they've gone all in on seriously playful and you know, it's just, it feels very true to them and their approach to their work. And again, it's something memorable that I've heard people quoting that to me because Analog has come on their radar.
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A
That's so nice. It's interesting you were talking about Interbrand before and how they kind of own their space. They do their own reports and trend analysis and insights. It's. It's mad how these agencies have been able to become their own publishers, their own media brands, so to speak, and the ones who are doing it really well. Dixon Baxie, Interbrand, so many others. We're redundant, we're dying. Trade media is gone. That's why I'm dancing around on YouTube vlogging.
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B
I don't know what to say to that.
- [32:11]
A
Come on, Emmy. Penny, I've only put you on the spot twice. This, this chat. Come on, come on. It's true, though. I think, I think, I don't think it's dying. I just think it's changing. I think because agencies are able. And by the way, I'm all for it. I love the leveling of the playing field. I love that there's this democratization going on and people can develop their own audiences. They don't have to go through the design trade press to get their voices heard. We still help. Good for SEO and good for credibility, but really, you can just own it.
- [32:45]
B
Well, you can own it individually, you can have. You can use your own platform, you can put your content out there, but that's not the same as being part of a community and having a conversation. And I think there'll always be a place for communities and for bringing people together to discuss our wonderful discipline. And we need the other people in our community. We need to be having those conversations and not just hiding away in sort of separate studios. It's just always so valuable. I regularly go to the meeting room event in Brighton, which is run by Baxter and Bailey and Rez Setter. And it's a fantastic coming together of local creatives, designers, writers, strategists, photographers, all kinds of people. Very, very welcoming. You don't know what's going to happen at an event like that. I really like that in that particular event, they allow plenty of time for the networking for people to talk to each other. We had the last event in May and we all just ended up sitting on the terrace outside the beach house in Brighton for hours. That's great. Having a drink and kind of, you know, making. Making really good connections. And I'm making friends.
- [34:21]
A
Oh, I love that. Actually, funny you should say community. That's exactly what most people say when I ask them, what's creative being to you? They don't say magazine or podcast. They always say community. So just recently, I've been playing with our, you know, marketing spiel, our kind of brand mission. And I've been calling us the home for creatives because that's the kind of feel that we, we want to give. We want to be warm and inclusive and like a big, you know, non patronizing hug. If, if you're a hugger. If not a pat on the shoulder or, or a wink. Actually, no, Wink, wink and a pat on the shoulder. Probably too creepy. Yeah. Something equivalent to a hug that isn't involving any kind of touch.
- [35:03]
B
Yes, yes, something like that.
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A
Bringing the northern humor as well. But going back to the networking, it's interesting. When I started, funny enough, we've always had a community, but it's been spread out on social media. So when I started a private community in February this year, now there's coming up to 6,000 members. Madness. I kind of think thought some, somebody, a couple of people said, can we meet in real life? And I was like, oh God, I can't. I'm sorry guys, but I just can't clone myself. But they were like, we'll, we'll do it. So now we've got these little events happening everywhere and I thought, well, there's so many great talks and if people are volunteering themselves to put on these events, then I don't want to overwhelm them. Just been saying, just, just say you're going to meet in a coffee shop or a pub or a bar and it's just to sort of chat and meet. And the feedback we've had from everyone is that it felt like it was missing because there's so many talks and events and they're all great, but sometimes people just want to have a drink like, oh my God, I deadline today. And because it's a lonely profession sometimes.
- [36:10]
B
Yeah. People need each other. And now we're all working remotely and you know, it can be pretty, pretty isolating. And good things always come out of those meetups. Always, always. And it's, I mean, I think we're, we're seeing a demand for those sort of real, real connections, aren't we? I mean, you know, I mean, social media is all well and good, but there's, there's nothing like actually, you know, seeing people in person.
- [36:44]
A
Oh, there's nothing. Nothing beats it all. And that's where you can bitch about all the other agencies and where they're going wrong.
- [36:51]
B
Yeah. Without it being published and searchable.
- [36:55]
A
Yes. I think that is the thing. We've been through a lot this decade, so to be able to come out the other side and realize actually the things that keep us happy and keep us successful is just getting out in the real world. It's about people. People like doing business with people, people like collaborating with people. And that's the sort of warmth to come back to, I guess. So as we've had this therapy 101 session, if you had one piece of therapy style advice for founders listening to this right now, what would it be?
- [37:29]
B
To agency founders? I think it's about getting simpler, about focusing in on the one thing that you want to be famous for instead of a whole laundry list of selling points and having the confidence to back yourself to back that one simple idea. Which is exactly what agencies say to clients. But it's time to take their own medicine.
- [38:03]
A
I love that. So lots to think about and chew over. Well, thank you Emily for sharing us a bit of insight today and we look forward to hearing more.
- [38:11]
B
Thanks Casey.
- [38:13]
A
Thank you. That was such a fascinating conversation with Emily Penny. So much to take away on positioning, on finding the confidence to stand out and why agencies really need to practice what they preach. I loved her honesty about the fear that holds us back and it was a good reminder that branding should feel simple, true and unmissable. If only it was as simple as that. But we're not done with Emily just yet. She'll be back with me this Thursday for the Spark where we'll get to know her a little differently. We'll be asking important questions like what was the last photo she took on her phone? What medium does she secretly wish she was really good at? And who on earth would play her in the movie of her life? It's going to be a mix of creative, personal and downright weird, and that's just on my part, so don't miss it. Until then, thanks again to James Cropper for sponsoring this season of the Creative Boom podcast. Remember, its Colour Source range gives designers direct access to 50 beautiful shades and a choice of textures, all crafted in the Lake District and delivered straight to your door. Explore the collection and bring your next project to life@paperandpackaging. James Cropper.com.