A (2:54)

Yeah.

B (2:54)

We don't present that way. I ignored it. I thought it was ridiculous. We should stop presenting that way. And you present against. These are the three values that you want to present in your life. One is about being connected, one about speed, and the other one might be about generosity. You present against the values that you've tried to establish in the earlier conversation. Every company has a series of values that they're trying to put into the world around a conversation that you want to have. You say, this will help you leverage that conversation. This will help you focus on this conversation. And that's the conversation. You're constantly presenting people different potential futures. You're rehearsing the future with them, not which is most comfortable for you. Who cares? Which future do you want to build? Do you wanna build that future? Do you wanna build this future? Or do you wanna build. So we become like exotic media. It's like, well. And that makes me uncomfortable. Like, you shouldn't even be having that conversation. The conversation be said, do you believe in this future or do you believe in that one? Which one manifests the future that you want to create?

A (3:50)

Have a spine.

B (3:52)

Stand up.

A (3:53)

Yeah.

B (3:54)

Yeah. So that's where I am. It's the most. It's the dumbest thing I've seen designers do. And I was told, here's how you present your work. That's dumb. So I ignored it. And it's made a big difference.

A (4:04)

You put on the orange tie.

B (4:06)

You put it. Yeah, well, it missed.

A (4:09)

Or the orange hat. In this case.

B (4:13)

This color.

A (4:15)

What is a medium or a discipline? Brian, you secretly wish you were really.

B (4:20)

Good at postmodern dance. No. Yeah. Voguing is really good.

A (4:30)

I'd love to know how to vogue.

B (4:31)

Yeah. So that sometime you can come visit New York and we'll do it.

A (4:34)

We'll do it.

B (4:35)

What secret discipline would be good? I wish I could remember all the poems that I love. I have a visual memory. There's so many poems that I love. There are only a handful that I've remembered. But I love poetry. It's changed. It answers questions that I don't necessarily know how to ask. So I wish I could remember more of the poems that I like. But instead, what I do is I walk around with. I walk around with poetry books instead.

A (5:04)

It's hard to go.

B (5:06)

It can be. One of my most favorite ones is from Leonard Cohen. It's actually a lyric from his that got me through a really tough winter, which was. I wasn't quite sure where I was. I was 33 and having a rough point in my life. And I read this quote. I didn't hear the song until many years later, but I heard this line from Leonard Cohen, which is. It's got me through its half winter. And a line was a series of lines. Because I thought I was aiming for perfection in design. I thought everything had to be perfect. I thought I had to be perfect. I thought design had to be like. Everything was. Design was so oriented around precision. And the middle of that expectation I placed on myself and I thought the expectation that my profession had placed on me. I found this quote, and it was, ring the bells that still can ring Forget your perfect offering There's a crack, a crack in everything that's how the light gets in.

A (6:03)

That is beautiful.

B (6:05)

Forget your perfect offering There's a crack, a crack in everything that's how the light gets in.

A (6:11)

Oh, gosh. That's really emotional. That's like sparking an emotion.

B (6:15)

That's Leonard Cohen. Now he's going to sing it the way Leonard Cohen does. But it gives voice to something that you can't quite grasp. And suddenly an accomplished songwriter, in that lyric, told me, you're kind of busted. You're kind of broken. You're kind of not right. I'm like, good. So ring the bells, the silk can ring Forget your perfect offering There's a crack, a crack in everything well, the way you tell it that's how the light gets in.

A (6:42)

The way you tell it. You sparked some tears at the back of my eyeballs then. I know that you're from an Irish.

B (6:49)

Family, but that's what poetry does. It should wake you up.

A (6:54)

It does. Yeah.

B (6:56)

And so that's why I wish I could remember more of them. Yeah.

A (7:00)

It's so true. What's a hill you die on when it comes to creative work?

B (7:05)

Brian Something. The hill I would die on is someone on My team, who has a great idea and that I believe in them and they believe in it, and they put their heart and soul into it, and I see it. And I will die to get that. I'll die to get that idea produced for them.

A (7:21)

That's wonderful. Are you a lovely boss?

B (7:25)

No, I'm not a lovely boss at all. No, I'm impossible. I'm absolutely impossible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think my staff and the people who are here, if there's an idea that they really believe in, and I think, and if that's the idea, I will die. And a lot of our work that we've done is actually, these aren't my ideas. These are ideas that other members of my team have had. And I'm like, I know how. Let's. That's what we're going to do now. Our job is to get them to see that that future is the right one for them. Whether it's, you know, I remember battling for this in our work with Dropbox, or most recently in our stuff that we just launched with Museum, which was. Our thinking was informed by supremacism and pure emotion and pure vitality. And it was quite a thing. And so that's what our point of inspiration was. But the designers on my team, some of them who came from Russia, who knew that work intimately, you could feel it. And so I think when a young designer on my team or any member of my team has an idea, they go, I love this. You can see it in the work. And the objective is to protect that so that energy comes through when you see it on the other side and you can sense it. You can sense it. Someone cared about this thing instead of just checking off all the boxes. That's what we fight for. We fight for when it comes out in the other end, they go, someone really cared about this, and it's meaningful to me.

A (8:59)

I love that now. I love that. I also love the fact that your team helped you pick out some of these questions, which I totally agree.

B (9:07)

I don't know. You gave me this giant list. They go, here's Kay's questions. Choose some of them and tell me. No, we are busy. So are you.

A (9:15)

Oh, yeah, I'm totally busy. I managed to order my collagen today, though. Brian. I'm proud of myself. That's been on my job list for a long time. I ordered my collagen.

B (9:24)

You did? Oh, I did. You know, Yeah. I had plastic surgery not long ago, but I woke up and I found out that. That they put it all they they were supposed to put it in like, you know, build up this. But instead they put it all here instead. They put it in the wrong. They put it in the wrong place. So I was like, what have you done?

A (9:41)

I'm just trying to get rid of my perimenopause spots, love.

B (9:48)

They just giving me extra chins.

A (9:51)

Bless you. You look good to me. You look good.

B (9:53)

Thank you, darling.

A (9:53)

You do not look over 50, I would say.

B (9:56)

Thank you. Thank you.

A (9:57)

Tell me all your secrets. So what is a guilty pleasure you defend to the deaf?

B (10:03)

Oreos.

A (10:07)

What is it about Oreos?

B (10:08)

It's the design equivalent of a really great sirloin steak. Crispy and hard and crispy. Crispy and crunchy on the outside and then really soft on the inside. It's steak in. In. In a cookie.

A (10:24)

Is it like you crunchy on the outside, soft in the inside?

B (10:27)

No, I'm. No, I'm. No, I'm soft on the outside and a monster on the inside. On the opposite. I seem soft, but I'm really a terror.

A (10:34)

I wasn't expecting this honesty. I know this is the first time we've met, but I love it.

B (10:40)

Oreos are the best. I have a whole room for Oreos. It's just when we keep Oreos stacked.

A (10:48)

In the kitchen, I love that.

B (10:50)

They're great. Oreo is the perfect cookie.

A (10:52)

Now you do a lot of traveling. What's the most impulsive thing you've ever done whilst globe trotting?

B (10:58)

I cannot keep myself out of bookstores. I can't. So people will not travel with me. Or they go. If you're going to walk around the city, you only get to spend 15 minutes in that bookstore. And they will walk. They'll go. If you're not out of that bookstore in 15 minutes, I'm leaving you. So my family will not travel with me because if I'm anywhere near bookstore. So when I land in the city, I'll go.

A (11:18)

I can smell books.

B (11:20)

There are books here. I love books. I use them. I read them and give them to friends. I've had events here. When people are at crossroads, they're lost. I've had parties and I've had invite people over and they said, what's a cross in your life? I'll have them read a biography, I'll have them read St. Vincent Millay, I'll have them read James Hillman, I'll have them read Rebecca Solnit. But books are transfiguring for me, so I cannot get Ghetto City and not hit a bookstore.

A (11:58)

You're like the Elton John of the literary world.

B (12:01)

What do you mean?

A (12:02)

As in, you started reading from a very early age and it's just your whole life. Whereas Elton started playing the piano from a very early age and that was his life.

B (12:12)

Books are absolutely amazing. So I can't. Yeah, I can't go to the city without any of these bookstores.

A (12:16)

I love that. Is there a good bookstore you can recommend in Brooklyn?

B (12:20)

A bunch of them. Why, are you visiting?

A (12:23)

I might do.

B (12:25)

Yes. I'll send you a list.

A (12:27)

Okay, good. Send it after this. Who would play you in the movie of your life and who should play. Who would play you in the movie of your life and who should play you? That's a weird question.

B (12:38)

Well, I would like Matt Bomer, but that's not gonna happen. Probably Divine. I don't. You know.

A (12:46)

Yeah. It's up to you.

B (12:49)

Who? Oh, God, A puppet. Kermit the Frog.

A (12:55)

Kermit the Frog.

B (12:56)

I'm gonna have Kermit play me.

A (12:58)

I'd be Miss Piggy. We'd be friends, actually. No, that's weird. We'd be in a relationship. That would be really weird. Sorry. This is what I do, Brian. I just go down roads that I shouldn't venture.

B (13:08)

That's okay. Movies are really interesting. Someone years ago, there's a column and said they would choose. I can't. Jeremy. I can't. Remember. Jeffrey. Someone who used to be in some TV show. They cast me, which is weird, but. No. Probably. Probably. Who should act? Me. A puppet? A train. A pulled toy. A glass of water. No. A plate. No, no, no. Who should play me a movie? A plate of Oreo cookies.

A (13:41)

Oh, for God's sake. Back to the Oreos.

B (13:44)

No, it was like. Yes, yes. A plate of Oreos. Yes, yes. You know, a plate of Oreo cookies starring as Brian Collins. Yes. That's what I would do.

A (13:51)

Or it could play field. I love it. This is where I'm slightly concerned about asking the next question. If your creativity were a mythical creature, what would it be?

B (14:02)

A griffin.

A (14:03)

A griffin. Okay. Straightforward. Ties in nicely with the philosophies that you stand by.

B (14:12)

Well, griffins are interesting because they're creatures of the ground and the air. Right. And they're fierce. It's both a lion and an eagle. So it's grounded and it knows how to navigate both. So if you only live on the ground, you'll never have perspective. You'll only be in the weeds. But if you have wings, you can like. Is this where I really want to be? So I love griffins. Because they're both grounded and have perspective.

A (14:41)

Yes. And very regal. Quite intimidating, but very regal.

B (14:46)

Yeah. They were dangerous. And they were also a lot of medieval heraldry, because they were. People thought they existed.

A (14:53)

I'm 47 this month. I'm a Leo the Lion.

B (14:56)

Oh, really?

A (14:57)

Yeah.

B (14:58)

Wow. Congratulations.

A (14:59)

I know. Thank you. I've made it.

B (15:01)

Yeah. You look fab, by the way. It gets oddly better.

A (15:05)

I know. It already is. And it's the collagen, darling.

B (15:12)

Again. Just remember, moisturize up.

A (15:14)

Oh, yes, I do.

B (15:15)

Always up. And lots of water up.

A (15:17)

Yes. Do all these things. And lots of. And that's sort of. What are they? The lovely sort of eye patches that you take out the freezer in the morning.

B (15:24)

Yep, yep, yep.

A (15:24)

Whilst you're having your coffee, what's the oddest compliment you've ever received?

B (15:30)

We just finished redesigning one of the largest companies in the earth. And the CEO had invited me to the. To their. To their launch of the New York Stock Exchange. Big deal in the center of the New York Stock Exchange in the floor. And they invited me to go. When they rang the bell and we rang the bell, it was a big deal. And the CEO comes up to me afterwards and he goes, we did this. I'm really proud of the work. Do you know why I hired you? Why? Because someone told me you were really difficult to work with. I'm like, what?

A (16:01)

I don't want to be difficult to work with.

B (16:03)

He goes, the reason why we hired you is because you would probably push us.

A (16:08)

Yeah.

B (16:08)

So it was. In other words, you said, you can be tricky. And we continue to work with him.

A (16:15)

You're always bloody asking questions. That's why I'm asking questions.

B (16:19)

And he said, I can be okay. But he said, that's why we work with you. You challenge us, you push us. And so he said, I hired you because someone told me you. You can be difficult. I would rather be challenging and rather be provocative and rather push than rather just be completely obsequious. So, yeah.

A (16:40)

What if we remembered? Don't we.

B (16:42)

Well, I think we want to be effective, you know, and I think we want to be helpful.

A (16:47)

Yes.

B (16:49)

Yeah. So the last thing I would say would be, when I was in my 30s and went through that hard point, I decided that I would not. You can't control whether you're happy. There's no way. You can't search for it. It's ridiculous. It's fleeting. It comes and goes. You can't control it. But what I could control is I gave up the desire to be happy for the desire to be helpful and be useful. I can be useful to somebody during the course of the day. I can't always be happy. And in changing the orientation for being helpful instead of happy changes everything. You can be helpful for anybody on the street. Your brother, your sister, a friend, your partner, your wife, your husband, a member of your team, a client. You can always find a way to be helpful. You can't always find ways to be happy. So I got rid of the desire. I no longer chase happiness. I chase how can I be helpful?

A (17:39)

And the irony of that is that you get happy moments from being helpful.

B (17:43)

You do, but you can't chase them.

A (17:45)

Okay, Brian, you're obviously a fascinating person to sit down with at a dinner table. I can imagine I wouldn't get a word edge in. Sorry, I'm a cheeky. I'm a cheeky bugger when I want to be. No, it's been great. I've really enjoyed this chat. But who's your dream dinner guest, dead or alive?

B (18:04)

Me.

A (18:08)

So we'll set a mirror up. Oh, gosh, you die.

B (18:16)

I always like what Oscar Wilde said. Whenever I travel, I always bring my diary because I always need something spectacular to read. But who would have been my great dinner guest? I would love to have had dinner with the poet Pablo Neruda. Yeah, he's one of my favorite poets. That would have been remarkable.

A (18:39)

What emoji do you overuse, Brian?

B (18:41)

Orange heart.

A (18:42)

What is it with the color orange?

B (18:46)

Orange is yellow that wants to be red. Or maybe it's red that wants to be orange. But orange. Well, in addition to that, my aunt gave me this color. It's a color transformation. Orange is always a color between two other colors. My favorite colors are orange, purple, and green. Purple is red that wants to be blue. Green is blue that wants to be yellow. Orange is yellow that wants to be red. So they're all chasing each other.

A (19:17)

It's true. I wish I'd wore my purple T shirt now.

B (19:20)

No, it's the color transformation. It's the color that's in between the things. And I'm always fascinated by the things that are in between the things instead of the things.

A (19:28)

Well, you know why I'm wearing this bright red T shirt, don't you? I bought a ton of colorful T shirts that suit me because I realized in all my podcasts, Brian, I was just wearing either black or white, which is very boring.

B (19:39)

Really? This red looks good.

A (19:42)

Thank you. Yeah, I'm going through a color phase.

B (19:44)

Yeah, it's fabulous. Yeah. Well, this is black, but I always have this.

A (19:48)

You always have the orange hat. Okay, we're going to finish off. Well, we're not quite there yet, but if you could use only one font for the rest of your life, what would it be?

B (19:57)

Baskerville.

A (19:58)

Good choice. Now, our previous guest was Halle Forlethson, who asked the question, and it's quite a kind of deep one. And he came out with it quite fast, quite quick. He said, how do you want to die? It ties in a lot with what we've been talking about, doesn't it?

B (20:17)

Well, it does because none of us get out of this.

A (20:20)

Nope.

B (20:22)

And we want to right up until the end. There's some hope that we're going to escape this, but we don't. No. How do I want to go? I want to go saying, I squeezed the hell out of that. I did it. I did everything I wanted to do. And you keep on aiming. I think I want to keep on looking over the horizon. I always want to figure out. I want to go still looking over the horizon. I never want to stop. I will not retire. I don't understand. Artists never retire. No, I want to keep going, looking over, trying to figure out what's next. That's how I will go.

A (20:59)

That's beautifully put. Now you've got the opportunity to ask a question. Ready for our next guest? Do you have one ready?

B (21:06)

Ask the question that you might not want the answer to.

A (21:09)

Thank you so much, Brian. This has just been absolutely fabulous. You didn't disappoint.

B (21:13)

Oh, well, thank you. Happy 16. It's quite a thing to keep. I think the act of rebellion today is to keep on going because it's really easy to be the new style pony who shows up on the block. The other things, you just keep on going and you're in the game and you'll learn more things. The funny thing is, you keep on going and you learn more stuff and then you find more things about yourself and all your perspective changes. So I'm in my third act now, and I'm planning on. I'm going to keep on going until I can. And I couldn't be happier. It's weird. I'm happier about doing the work we're doing now than I've ever been.

A (21:48)

Yeah, I would totally agree. 16 years feels like nothing to me. And I'm going to keep going and going and going. And to me, it's not a job or anything like that. It's a profession. It's a passion. It's a. It's a purpose. So why would I want to stop?

B (22:03)

Exactly. Katie, I can't thank you enough for your time today. It was great.

A (22:09)

Well, that was a whirlwind, wasn't it? From mythical creatures to guilty pleasures and the kind of compliments that make you go, sorry, what now? Brian Collins did not disappoint. There were belly laughs, some genuinely touching moments and a fair bit of chat about Oreos. Again, honestly, what a man. A Griffin in human form. Massive. Thanks to Brian for being such a brilliant sport and for reminding us that being curious, mischievous and unapologetically yourself is always the best way to go. If you haven't already, go and listen to the full episode from earlier this week. Trust me, it's a proper treat. And we'll be back next week with another guest on the Creative Bean podcast, another big chat and yes, probably more biscuits. Sam.