The Spark: Paul Benney on Creative Envy, Childhood Freedom & a Dream Dinner with Tony Wilson

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Creative Boom Podcast

Episode: The Spark: Paul Benney on Creative Envy, Childhood Freedom & a Dream Dinner with Tony Wilson
Host: Katy Cowan
Date: October 15, 2025
Guest: Paul Benney (Disco Pogo, Bugged Out)

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Episode Overview

This lively episode features Paul Benney, an influential music journalist and magazine founder, in a candid conversation with host Katy Cowan. The discussion explores the person behind the brand, delving into themes of creative envy, childhood freedom, daily rituals, risk-taking, and Paul’s admiration for legendary music figures. Brimming with nostalgia, humour, and honest reflection, the episode offers inspiration and relatable moments for creatives at any stage of their journey.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Wishing for Another Creative Discipline

• Musical Aspirations
  • Paul admits he wishes he was a musician:

    “I'd love to be able... I'd love to be a musician.” (01:01, Paul)

  • Though embedded in music—through journalism, running labels, and signing artists—Paul has never created music himself.
  • During lockdown, he briefly tried learning guitar but found focus challenging:

    "What you need to make music is focus. You need to turn all that off and spend an hour every day..." (02:09, Paul)

  • Dream: To dedicate Mondays to learning guitar and possibly play for fun in a covers band one day.

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Creative Envy and Inspiration

• Admiring Richard Russell (XL Recordings)
  • Paul discusses feeling envious rather than jealous of Richard Russell, an executive who transitioned back into music-making:

    "I don't like the word jealous, but envious...of someone who can, on the business side of things, create the best independent record label in the world and then decide to put all that on one side and just make music..." (05:27, Paul)

  • Paul is inspired by someone who relinquishes control to focus on personal passion, reminding himself and listeners to chase what truly excites them.
• Both Katy and Paul share the sentiment that if money were no issue, they’d still pursue their creative projects—Creative Boom and Disco Pogo, respectively.

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Small Rituals and Daily Habits

• Morning Smoothies & Cycling
  • Paul’s non-negotiable ritual: making a (loud) protein smoothie every morning (09:07).
  • He regularly cycles, often with the “Lee Riders,” fitting rides before work:

    “On a Tuesday and a Thursday morning at 8:15...we go out for hour and a half, bike ride, ride about 25 miles, coffee afterwards and then I'm back at my desk for 10.” (09:51, Paul)

  • Cycling serves as a joy, form of achievement, and connection to childhood freedom.

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Nostalgia: Childhood Freedom & Its Impact

• Scent Memories & Independence
  • The smell of freshly cut grass instantly takes Paul back to carefree days on a "wimpy estate" in Bletchley, Milton Keynes:

    “That smell of freshly cut grass and being with your mates, you know, when you're that young...football under your arm, playing football all day, nipping home for some orange squash.” (11:59, Paul)

  • Reminisces about outdoor childhoods, communal neighbourhoods, and building dens—contrasted with his children’s indoor-centric lives.
  • Explores if such unsupervised freedom contributed to his entrepreneurial risk-taking:

    “That growing up with that freedom...could very well have led to people of that generation being less risk averse. Definitely.” (14:55, Paul)

  • Katy and Paul fondly recall the community spirit and neighborly support of their upbringings.

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If You Could Swap Lives With a Historical Figure...

• Malcolm McLaren at the Height of Punk
  • Paul chooses Malcolm McLaren during the Sex Pistols' heyday, drawn by the chaos and freedom:

    “If I could swap places with anyone for a week, Malcolm McLaren at the height of the Sex Pistols fame would be...that would be the one.” (18:01, Paul)

  • Expresses fascination with music’s unpredictability and the liberation it represented.

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Big Questions & Beliefs

• Life After Death
  • Paul expresses a hope—even if faint—for something beyond:

    “I'd love to think there was something...I was brought up Catholics. I was brought up to believe in heaven. I don't believe in heaven.” (20:10, Paul)

  • Reflects on personal and societal comfort in the unknowable, ultimately deciding that perhaps not knowing is best:

    “Maybe it's fine the way it is. We don't know. Maybe that's the best way.” (23:13, Paul)

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Dream Dinner Guest

• Tony Wilson (“Mr. Manchester”)
  • Paul reminisces about Tony Wilson’s openness and mentorship:

    “He always had time for us...He was someone who was happy to take risks if he was passionate about something, didn't matter about the money.” (24:03–27:22, Paul)

  • Shares a story about walking through the Hacienda with Wilson before the bailiffs arrived, emphasizing Wilson’s approach to making history over money.
  • Would relish the chance for one last dinner to thank Wilson for his inspiration.

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Emoji Habits

• Which Emoji Do You Overuse?
  • Paul: The “prayer” emoji (which Katy jokes is actually a high-five), classic smiley, and recently, the melting face—his “emoji for 2025”:

    “...it just feels like...if there was an emoji for 2025, that would...that should be the emoji of the year.” (28:32, Paul)

  • Katy shares her use of the eyes emoji—then learns of its risqué meaning among younger users.

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Surprising Personal Fact

• Born American
  • Paul reveals he was born in Atlanta, Georgia, lived in Seattle as a child, and still holds dual citizenship:

    “I'm American, I'm not born in the UK, I'm born in the USA.” (31:08, Paul)

  • He embraced American culture as a child before returning to the UK—an adaptation he found challenging in his early teens.

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Paul’s Question for the Next Guest

“What is the first book that you read that you feel really changed you?” (33:35, Paul)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Following Your Passion:

  “If you could do anything out in the world, you win the lottery tomorrow, you don't have to do it anymore. Would you still do it? And with the publishing books and magazines, I think, I think I would.” (07:10, Paul)

• On Childhood Independence:

  “No mobile phones...But also you're, you know, no one, you know, really worried about that. You know, you. You're just out all day. That’s what kids did.” (12:44, Paul)

• On Creative Influence:

  “Some people make money, others make history.” (Imparted from Tony Wilson, 26:34, Paul)

• On the Unknowable:

  “Maybe it’s fine the way it is. We don’t know. Maybe that’s the best way.” (23:13, Paul)

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Important Timestamps

• [01:01] – Paul’s musical aspirations
• [03:29] – Creative envy for Richard Russell
• [09:07] – Morning smoothie ritual
• [09:51] – Cycling with the Lee Riders
• [11:12] – Scents & childhood nostalgia
• [14:55] – Childhood risk-taking & entrepreneurship
• [18:01] – Swapping lives with McLaren
• [20:10] – Musings on life after death
• [24:28] – Story of the Hacienda with Tony Wilson
• [28:32] – Emoji discussion
• [31:08] – Paul’s American roots
• [33:35] – Question for the next guest

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Tone & Takeaways

With warmth and wit, this episode celebrates the messiness and magic of creative careers. Both host and guest reflect on privilege, perseverance, community, and never losing curiosity or a sense of adventure. The conversation is peppered with personal stories, shared experiences, and playful banter, offering reassurance to fellow creatives that none of us truly have it all figured out.

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For more inspiring interviews and stories from the creative community, visit creativeboom.com.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. We're back for another episode with Paul Benny of Disco Pogo Bugged Out Fame. If you haven't listened to the interview yet that we had on Monday, please do give it a go. It was fascinating. Dive into his career over three decades plus possibly. I don't know how old I am. I don't think you know how old you are. Thanks so much for joining me back on the Creative Boom podcast, Paul.

[B]

Yep. Great to be back.

[A]

And now we're going to ask you some questions, which you've chosen from a big, long list. It's going to give us a little bit more of an insight into the person behind the brand.

[B]

Okay, can't wait.

[A]

These are things you've prepared for, so we're not going to throw any kind of surprises at you, but we're going to start with something I always find really interesting when you're talking to somebody who's obviously quite a generalist and has done lots of things across different mediums. But what's a discipline or medium you secretly wish were really good at?

[B]

I'd love to be able. I'd love to be a musician.

[A]

Oh, so that makes sense.

[B]

My. My entire career, I've been, you know, in the music industry. I've been a music journalist and run magazines and signed artists and run a label and all of those things adjacent to, you know, music and. But never, you know, made any music of my own.

[A]

So.

[B]

And it wasn't my. I didn't ever really want to be a pop star or anything. I always realized that my, you know, career was going to be in and around music rather than, you know, being in a band or something. But whenever I talk to someone and I tell them what I do, they say, oh, can you play? You know, can you make music? And I go, no. I've got no musical talent whatsoever. So, yeah, to be able to play an instrument, I'd love to be able to, you know, I'd love to be able to play the guitar.

[A]

Why don't you just learn?

[B]

Well, I have done, like, a lot of people in lockdown. I had a, you know, I had a little go and I've still got. We've got a guitar in the house. We've got a bass in the house. We've got amps that my brother's given me and an ukulele. We did have. I don't know if we still got. The kids have had those, and so I've got no excuses. Yeah, but it's all about focus, isn't it? So I so much of what I do nowadays is a bit of this and a bit of that and, you know, emails and texts and phone calls. And, you know, what you need to make music is focus. You need to turn all that off and spend an hour every day, you know? And so I do think that maybe when I can get. I'd love to get to that point in my work life when I could be like, yeah, Mondays, I'm. I'm learning the guitar.

[A]

I'm jamming, man.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, don't. Don't message me on a Monday, man, because I'm. I'm. And I also thought, yeah, being in a band would be a great thing to do. And you know what? Not a band, as in making original music and slogging it out, trying to get people interested in what you're doing, but like an Iggy and the Stooges covers band or something like that. Something pure fun, you know, playing someone else's brilliant music. So maybe one day.

[A]

Love it. Which leads me on to another question, which. Closely tied, I guess. Have you ever been creatively jealous of someone and how did you handle it?

[B]

So, yeah, I saw this question and I actually thought of someone quite quickly who I'm a big fan of Richard Russell. All right, Who? He is the founder of Excel Recordings, best independent record label in the world. Home to Adele and the White Stripes and the Prodigy and a whole bunch of other acts. And I read his book, which is for anyone interested in the music industry or music in general. You know, his book's incredible. A memoir about his life, and he's very humble in it, and. But it's a great story. And so he set up this amazing record company and signed the biggest artist in the world, you know, one of the biggest artists, Adele, and. But then he started producing artists, which is what he did right at the beginning. He made some kind of hardcore records, and that's how he ended up signing the Prodigy. So he was a producer and DJ to begin with, then got side. That all got sidelined because he ran the label. But in recent years, Richard Russell has stopped running the label and handed all that over to other people because he doesn't want to sit behind the desk, doesn't want to be getting emails from people, doesn't want to be dealing with all the stuff that's associated with running a successful record label.

[A]

It's a lot of work.

[B]

And he. He produced one of his heroes, Gil Scott Heron, and then went off and produced some other artists. And now he's in an incredible band where he brings in Loads of musicians to collaborate on projects called Everything Is Recorded. And he tells this story when he was producing Gil Scott Heron, that Gil Scott Heron said, is this what you do now? Like, what are you, Are you a record label guy or are you a producer? Richard Russell says that at that moment, he knew that he had to make a choice.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And he decided that what he wanted to be was a musician. And so I don't like the word jealous, but envious. Try not to be jealous of anyone, but envious of someone who can, on the business side of things, create the best independent record label in the world and then decide to put all that on one side and not do it day to day anymore and just make music because he's musically talented is something that I'm, you know, I think it's an incredible thing.

[A]

Inspired by.

[B]

Inspired by. I think some people when they create successful businesses, they. They love being the man, don't they?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's like, I don't. I'm. I don't need to be that. I don't need to do that anymore. You know, he owns the label. Other people run it. What he wants to do with his days from now until the day he dies is make music.

[A]

It's a good reminder, isn't it? We, we assume everybody else has it figured out, but actually everybody's just on their own little journey and change at any time.

[B]

Yeah. And it would, it's, you know, it's a reminder to me that I'm at that stage where I have to do all the other stuff, you know, the, you know, the paying bills and the emails and the social media and. But it is a reminder to try and focus on the things that, you know, what. So if you didn't have to do that stuff, what would you do? One thing for me is that I think that I would still be publishing magazines and books. And so I love to go through that thought process, like, why are you doing this? And if you could do anything out in the world, you win the lottery tomorrow, you don't have to do it anymore. Would you still do it? And with the publishing books and magazines, I think, I think I would.

[A]

Oh, yeah. 100. I'd still do creative boom. Even if I was like loaded and could just go and live a life.

[B]

So how lucky are you to be able to say that?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

It's so, you know, it's an incredible thing and we should both be very grateful.

[A]

I would just get a bigger team.

[B]

Oh. Oh, yeah. I mean, obviously you would make things a little Bit easier for yourself.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

There's parts of this that I do at the moment that I wouldn't, you know, I'd rather not be doing. But the general thing, you running creative boom, me running disco pogo. Would I want to carry on doing those things? Absolutely.

[A]

What? This is why I don't understand when people say they're going to retire, like, what do you mean? What are you going to do?

[B]

Well, I mean, I suppose sometimes people hate their jobs.

[A]

Yeah. You know, Are you saying I've got privilege? I didn't realize I had.

[B]

I think that it's an amazing thing that you could say that you don't want to retire, you know, and it's an amazing thing that, you know, I wouldn't mind feeling like I could retire financially.

[A]

Yeah. Obviously. It's nice to know that you've got that if you need to and that.

[B]

But I'm going to carry on doing it anyway.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

But yeah, the people that I've spoken to who have retired, you know, they retired because, you know, the job was just a job, just a way of earning money, and when they had enough money, they gave it up.

[A]

You don't feel like this is a job, do you, though?

[B]

I sometimes do. When you're paying bills and like I said, you've got to get that social media post out today and. But no, in general, publishing books and magazines and writing about music that you're into doesn't. It feels like I feel very lucky to be able to do it.

[A]

Yeah, same. And I know you're a busy chap. You've got all these tasks every day that you have to handle, teams to manage, things to do. Have you got a small ritual or habit that makes your day better that you've managed to squeeze in?

[B]

I make. I make a smoothie every morning.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

I don't know. And it drives the family mad because it's on a ninja, you know, and it's just very noisy. They're brutal and. And so, yeah, that might be a bit of a boring little ritual, but. But, you know, making that protein smoothie every day is. Yeah. Makes me feel great. The other thing that I do a couple of times a week is go out on my bike.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

But maybe that's not a tiny little ritual, but I'm, you know, working from home. I've realized that I can, you know, have a couple of mornings a week where, you know, before I start work, you know, go out and ride my bike for an hour and a half.

[A]

What's your bike?

[B]

I'VE got a road, I've got a road bike and an off road bike and I've got, I live in Leon Sea and I've got a group of friends who are kind of informally called the Lee Riders and going back to the retirement thing, a number of those people are retired. They retired at 60 and they've got free time and so on a Tuesday and a Thursday morning at 8:15 most Tuesday and Thursday mornings we go out for hour and a half, bike ride, ride about 25 miles, coffee afterwards and then I'm back at my desk for 10.

[A]

Nice. I love a bike ride. I love the cafe stop. Yeah, because you can have that cake, you can absolutely have that chocolate cake.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Guilt free cake.

[A]

Yeah, it's great. Oh, I didn't know you were into cycling.

[B]

Yeah, I'm going out for a bike ride tonight actually, off road for go out at 6 o' clock and probably a couple of hours. Obviously you can do it in the summer months, don't really cycle in the evening when it gets dark, but. No, but yeah, it's a one, it's an amazing, you know, it's an amazing thing. It's fun and hard sometimes and great sense of achievement and I love it.

[A]

Yeah, makes you feel like a kid again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Speaking of childhood, what's a scent or smell that instantly takes you back to a memory? I mean it doesn't necessarily have to be a childhood memory. Sorry.

[B]

Well, when I saw this question I immediately thought of, you know, freshly cut grass. Because my childhood was on a, on a, you know, a wimpy estate in Bletchley Milton Keynes, you know, the wimpy houses, you know, typical 70s estate. And I used to go out in the morning, say goodbye summer holidays, I suppose, say goodbye to my mum and dad and I probably, I must have gone home for lunch, you know, but then after lunch it was like, right, see you later. So make sure you're home before it gets dark. Football under my arm. Yeah, maybe, maybe cricket sometimes in the summer when the cricket was on the telly, maybe a tennis racket when Wimbledon was on.

[A]

Yeah, same, same, same.

[B]

It was a wonderful thing and I just. That feeling, that smell of freshly cut grass and being with your mates, you know, when you're that young and I'm talking about, you know, I'm talking about, you know, you know, eight years old, you know, that kind of age, you know, football under your arm, playing football all day, you know, nipping home for some orange squash.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I mean it sounds very, it sounds very Jumpers for goal posts, that. Which is a bit ridiculous. It was, but it was, you know, it was a great way to grow up, you know, outdoors, basically.

[A]

Yeah. Mum's at homemade ice lollies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Summer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With the plastic.

[B]

No. Mobile phones.

[A]

No.

[B]

But also you're, you know, no one, you know, really worried about that. You know, you. You're just out all day. That's what kids did.

[A]

Did you ever get chased off farmer's fields like we did?

[B]

I'm. I'm sure that stuff, you know, you sometimes get into some scrapes, but nothing serious.

[A]

Building dens.

[B]

Yeah. You go down, you know, the brook. The brook or, you know, into the, you know, into the bit of, you know, the woods. Although it's probably just a few trees somewhere, you know, off this estate where.

[A]

We'D later go and smoke spliffs.

[B]

But it was. Yeah. You know, and it's very different to the way kids grow up now, isn't it? I've got two kids and, you know, they love being outdoors, but that's just not. That's not how they live their lives, you know. No, you know, their lives, their lives are indoors, you know.

[A]

Do you think. Do you think because we had that childhood, that's part of what gave us the entrepreneurial spirit, the sense of adventure, not being so risk averse?

[B]

I mean. Yeah, I mean, I think. I mean, yeah, it's an interesting point. I've not really thought about it. I thought about the fact that my dad was a contractor and so I always felt like he never had a proper job, even though it was a proper job. It was just for short periods of time for different companies in different parts of the world. So he didn't have one of those jobs for life. And so I think that made. Even though he wasn't an entrepreneur, it made me feel entrepreneurial. But yes, I can see I've always been. Never been risk averse, only. Only now I've got a bit older, have I got more sensibly risk averse.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

When I was in my 20s, starting jockey start and Bugged out, I was the opposite of risk averse. Probably in my teens, I was the opposite of risk averse. And yeah, that's an interesting point. I'd not really thought about it, but yeah, that growing up with that freedom to just go out in the morning with a basic plan that you're going to play football or cricket all day or just be outdoors all day or on your bikes. I suppose you go off riding your bikes and then there was that feeling of but maybe some other stuff will happen and who knows what that will be, you know. You know, some scrapes, like you said.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that is an interesting point. It could very well have led to people of that generation, you know, being less risk averse. Definitely.

[A]

I just remembered what we called our brook. It was called the Addy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Can't remember what he was short for, but it's still today, 30, 40 years on, if you're in my hometown in the pub and somebody brings up the Addy, you know exactly what they're talking about. It's just so charming.

[B]

Yeah, it was a great. I went past there recently. I was visiting my parents. I cycled up to the old estate that we lived on. It just seemed very different. But it's a different time now. But I just remember us knowing all the neighbors. We had low fences in the back of the garden as well. So it meant that, you know, we, you know, you could see into, you know, next door's garden and the next door. You talk to everyone, everyone knew each other. I'm sure it wasn't as idyllic as I'm making it sound, but there was a sense of community. You know, all the neighbors knew each other. And the other thing was all the dads at the weekend would be fixing their cars.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Out the back, helping each other. And obviously no one, hardly anyone fixes their own cars nowadays because they're too complicated. But.

[A]

Yeah. Well, they just don't break down.

[B]

They just don't break down as much.

[A]

But you know what's really cute? My mum and dad still live in the same house. I grew up since I was 7 years old. There's a lot of the neighbors are the same. So when I go home and go and visit them, it's just, it's like stepping back in time because it's just. Or. And if my mum and dad have a party, there are people that they've known that go there that, you know, for 40 plus years.

[B]

Sounds like a lovely thing.

[A]

It's a very lovely thing. And it's something I know they cherish. I. I do not take for granted. You know, I call a lot of my mum and dad's friends aunt and uncle.

[B]

Yeah, we all did that. Yeah. Oh, that's a funny thing.

[A]

Isn't it sweet? It's so sweet. So I've. I've still got that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I know a lot of people don't have it because people move around, don't they?

[B]

Yeah. And also, I don't know, we know our neighbors here. But I mean, I remember living in London, you, neighbors didn't talk to each other, you know, like I said, it sounds like I'm being a bit grumpy. And the 70s were brilliant. It wasn't all brilliant.

[A]

No.

[B]

You know, but we did know our neighbors.

[A]

Yes, we did. So if you could swap lives with a historical figure for a week, for a whole week, who would it be?

[B]

I chose Malcolm McLaren right at the height of the Sex Pistols blowing up, bit of punk. Because he was always, you know, an inspiration to me in. And that goes with the not being risk averse. I love the chaos. I love. And it's one of the reasons I was trying to explain it to my daughter and I think she might have thought I was a bit crazy. But I was saying one of the interesting things that about music for me was chaos. It was the anything can happen, you can do anything, you can be anything. And things like the Sex Pistols. But later on, people, you know, bands like the G Su Mary Chain, one of the fascinating. Who I was really into, you know, there were, you know, little riots at their gigs.

[A]

Yeah. Rage against the Machine back in my day.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And so if I could swap places with anyone for a week, Malcolm McLaren at the height of the Sex Pistols fame would be. That would be the one.

[A]

Brilliant. It's because you grew up in a cul de sac. You're a cul de sac kid. So you like the chaos. That's. There you go. I'm just. This is like some of the cul de sac.

[B]

I did grow up in a cul de sac. Yeah. Selena Close. Bletchley, Milton Keynes.

[A]

Oh, I. I lived in Leighton Buzzard briefly when I was a kid.

[B]

Oh, that's just down the road.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I know Milton. I know Milton Keynes quite well because of that. And I got my first bike from Habitat in Milton Keynes.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

Yeah. Little cute. Little red and blue and yellow bike. Anyway, what's something you'd love to believe in even if it's not real?

[B]

It sounds a bit heavy, but, you.

[A]

Know, life after death, I don't think that's heavy. I think we all hope that, don't we?

[B]

What are, you know, is, you know, when you. When you try and think about what happens to you after you pass away, it's mind blowing, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What? Nothing. How can that be? What's nothing? How can that. But I'm so. I. I'm, you know, what am I gonna. So I'm not gonna be. There's not gonna be. I'M not gonna be thinking that there's nothing. Yeah, there's nothing.

[A]

So your atoms.

[B]

I'm not going to be thinking. Yeah, it's so you don't actually fully go.

[A]

You know that, don't you? Your atoms sort of just float into other. I don't know how it works. We're not, we're not actually here. We're just sort of made up of particles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Isn't that mind blowing in itself is.

[B]

But I mean, what happens to your mind? You know, you don't think I'm dead. You're like you, you aren't thinking because you're not there. It's like. Anyway, it's always fascinated me as I'm sure it's always fascinated. Sure. Everyone thinks about this kind of thing, don't they? And depends how many drugs you took.

[A]

In the 90s and.

[B]

But I'll keep trying. I don't even know. I haven't got that thing where I'd like, oh, I'd love to come back as this or I'd love to come back as a. Or that. It's not that. It's just you just want to know.

[A]

That you can see the people you love again.

[B]

Yeah. To know that there was something. That's it. That's all it is. I mean I was brought up Catholics. I was brought up to believe in heaven. I don't believe in heaven.

[A]

Honestly. We need a whole other episode as well.

[B]

I'm not, you know, I'm a. I'm a totally lapsed Catholic, I'm not religious, I don't go to church and I don't believe in heaven.

[A]

Do you still go into churches when you're in different cities though and do that thing where you just put a bit of coin in the thing and light a candle.

[B]

I'm obviously very respectful of, you know, religion and its personal choice and I've got, obviously I've generally not got a problem with it. Obviously sometimes it causes problems, which is a terrible thing. But I mean, Jen, you know, for some people it's a great comfort and that's fine with me.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

So. No, it's not. I'm not religious. But you know, I'd love to think there was something.

[A]

Yeah, we stole all those hosts once from the priest when we were supposed to be cleaning up the church and we all sort of hid behind a seat and ate them all.

[B]

Yeah, I did, you know, yeah. As a Catholic, the body of Christ and all that and yeah, I did all that. But I. Confession and I think when I was about 12 or 13. I said to my parents, do I have to go anymore?

[A]

I think I did the same. Yeah.

[B]

They said, not if you don't want to. And I said, of course I don't want to. I've never wanted. I've never wanted to go, so I'm not going to go. And then, then they never went ever again either.

[A]

Oh, that's cute.

[B]

Because they were. They were. Obviously, they thought that it was the right thing to do to take me to church.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And as soon as I said, well, I'm not going anymore, they, they. I don't think they said to me, well, we're not going either. I just noticed that on a Sunday, they weren't leaving the house, so they probably loved it.

[A]

They probably think, gosh, this is getting our day back.

[B]

I don't think they wanted to go to church either. Yeah, they've never been back.

[A]

Well, that's something I didn't expect to learn about you today, Paul. Both of us lapsed Catholics. There you go. But as for the question about what's next, I think there's comfort in knowing that it just. It goes dark and that's it. And you don't know because it makes our time here even more special. But those are my two pence.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with that. I, you know, I agree with that. And yeah, I'm not thinking about this particular thing, you know, all day, every day. It's not. Keep me awake at night.

[A]

No.

[B]

If I'm encouraged to think about it, then I'm. I'm like, yeah, it's, you know, none of us know, do we? How? How? Billions of people on this earth, none of us know.

[A]

If you could find out what happens. If there was some sort of, I don't know, higher meaning. Yeah, if you could find out. But the personal thing or entity or blob, Floating blob, whatever it is said to you, I'm going to tell you what happens, but you're never going to be able to tell anybody else because if you do, you'll drop down dead.

[B]

Well, that is a brilliant question. I love the scenario that you've created there off the top of your head. And I suppose I wouldn't want to know. No, I'm saying, like, I want to know, but I don't really want to know.

[A]

Well, you wouldn't want to know.

[B]

In that case, I wouldn't want to.

[A]

Know to keep it secret.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, so, yeah, I suppose maybe it's fine the way it is. We don't know. Maybe that's the best way.

[A]

Maybe it is. But can I just admit that for a long time in the. Whenever it was the 90s or the late 80s, I thought that when you died, Patrick Swayze would be waiting for you with a lot of bright light behind him. But, you know, hey, ho, that would be amazing. It would, it would. That and all the people you loved. Right. Not to be narcissistic, but anyway, dream dinner guest, dead or alive, who would you have.

[B]

I'm gonna go for Tony Wilson.

[A]

Oh, good old Manchester.

[B]

Because I. When we were running Jockey Slut, even when we were running the college magazine, Tony Wilson was available to us. We'd want to interview him, he'd make himself available to us.

[A]

Good egg.

[B]

He was supportive of what we were doing, even if we were sometimes critical of him. I remember hanging out with him a bit for various reasons, sometimes to do within the city. He was, you know, he was very visible in and around Manchester and. But also making himself available to these people in their early 20s who we didn't really. You know, we were just in the early part of our career, but we were talking to Mr. Manchester.

[A]

Yeah, they probably. He probably loved it.

[B]

And. And there was one time when me and Jono went to his office for a meeting with him about something, and now I can't remember what the meeting was about, but he said, look, let's walk and talk. Hacienda had shut at that point. He said, the bailiffs are coming in the Hacienda tomorrow and I want to go around and see if there's anything that I want to keep and you guys can come with me. He said, oh, by the way, you can keep anything you want as well.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

So we wandered around the Hacienda after it had shut. The day before, the Bayless had come in with Tony Wilson. And I was a bit weirded out by the whole thing because I thought it should be. It should be a sad thing, like the bailiffs are coming and your biz, the business is over and. But, you know, he was just his normal self. And my partner Jono got a bollard from the edge of the dance floor.

[A]

Oh, brilliant.

[B]

Which he still has to this day, which I think is worth a lot of money. And I didn't take anything because I felt so weird about taking souvenirs and now I regret it. I wish. I wish I'd got a bollard as well. There were more than. There was plenty of bollards. There was. Well, there's a few bollards around the edge of the dance floor, John. I got one of them. I wish I'd got one, but. So. And we moved to London, and Tony Wilson, you know, passed away. And I sent him a message when he was ill saying, thanks for everything. I emailed him, thanks for everything. You really inspired us. You always had time for us. And I joked and I said, the only thing that we don't thank you for is the fact that he always said, you know, some people make money, others make history. And so the whole thing was concentrate on making history, don't worry about the money. And I said, sometimes I wish that I thought about the money a little bit more. But anyway, he. He sent me a message back saying, you know, something in Latin, I think. Ven semiros, I think it was, which I think means we will make it or I will make it. And of course, he didn't make it. And. And. But to. To. To. To spend some time with him now and, you know, thank him for, you know, everything that, you know, how inspiring he's been for so many people in Manchester in the music industry. But also, he's just. He was just great company. The little bit of time I spent with him, you know, what a brilliant, fascinating, funny, you know, intelligent person he was who. And he was someone who was happy to take risks if he was passionate about something, didn't matter about the money. You've heard all the stories. He was like. He was all about risk. And there aren't many people like him, you know, or anyone like him left. So. So, yeah, dinner with. Dinner with Tony Wilson. I would love that.

[A]

One of the rebels.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

What emoji do you overuse, Paul Benny?

[B]

Well, I use the, you know, the prey emoji a lot.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's just being nice, isn't it?

[A]

You know, it's not. Do you know what? This. This is something I found out a couple of years ago. I'm gonna make. I'm. I'm not. This is not my intention to embarrass you, but it's not the pray emoji. It's two hands coming together and clapping, doing a high five.

[B]

Oh, okay. I always thought it was the prey emoji, which you, you know, which obviously you use as. Not a praying, but as a thank you.

[A]

Yes. You know, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. We need. We need our listeners to send.

[B]

The thing is, with emojis, it doesn't really matter what they're supposed to be because they become.

[A]

Well, exactly.

[B]

They become what they. You know, they're used in different Ways, aren't they?

[A]

Yeah. Like a peach means something else, doesn't it?

[B]

Things mean. Things mean other things.

[A]

Aubergine.

[B]

So I use that a lot. And then with Disco Pogo, we use a classic smiley face a lot. In an acid house way.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But my. My favorite new emoji, which my partner Jono has, he started using a lot. And then I started. It started resonating with me and I don't know what it's called, but it's the kind of melting smiley face.

[A]

The one like that.

[B]

Yeah. And it just feels like for so many. We've had conversations recently and for so many things in the world right now. Yes, that's the. It feels like if there was an emoji for 2025, that would. That should be the emoji of the.

[A]

Year, I must admit. I think that's one of the ones I use a lot these days. That and the one where you've got them peeking out between, you know, behind two hands going, oh, can't look.

[B]

So that's. That's become my new, you know, my new go to.

[A]

I love it. I use the eyes emoji for the creative boom, branding, and I found out a couple of months ago that for the younger generations, those eyes mean naked.

[B]

Yeah. You can kind of see it, can't you? You can, but you can't unsee it after you've now mentioned it.

[A]

So for the last 10 years, I've just basically been talking to younger generations when I reply to them on social media because it's. It's a really powerful little emoji for our brand because it can say so much without saying anything at all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if somebody's a bit cheeky or if somebody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If somebody is critical or if somebody, like, says, oh, I don't like this graphic design work that you've posted on LinkedIn. All I have to do is put the little eyes emoji on and just walk away.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't. I said, yeah. I always used it for, like, you know, look at this, you know, or, you know. Yeah. You'd share something, wouldn't you? Use the eyes, like, you know that you've. That. Yes. Something is happening that you should keep an eye on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've never heard the naked thing, to be honest.

[A]

How little did we know? Eh? You know, there's so much that we have left to learn. You know this. Yeah. I don't know what I'm trying to say. Okay, so what we do with our guests is we always ask them at the End of the spark for a question for our next guest. And they answer a question from the previous guest. And obviously this is a brand new season. And we have kept James Greenfield of Koto's question from last time, which ended in July. Can you believe that? Feels like a long time ago. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. What's the most surprising thing about you? Or what's a big surprising thing about you?

[B]

So all I could think of for this is because I'm worried that I'm going to disappoint people and people are going to immediately say that isn't that surprising or interesting. But all I could think of was, is that I'm American, I'm not born in the uk, I'm born in the usa.

[A]

That is quite surprising, Paul.

[B]

And, and I suppose, you know, having spent, you know, everything that I've done feels, you know, quite British, I suppose, you know, and. But my dad, as I mentioned, was a, he was a contractor, an aircraft design engineer. He worked all over the world. And I was born when he was working for a company in Atlanta, Georgia, and that's where I was born. And then I came back to England when I was 18 months old, but I went back out to me, I went back out to, I came back from America when I was 18 months old, but I went back out to America to live in Seattle when I was nine.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Until I was 12 and a half because he worked for Boeing out there. And I absolutely loved it. And yeah, I was a complete American kid. I had an American accent, like developed an American accent. And I played baseball and basketball and I just turned into. At that age, you're very adaptable, you know, you're just, your environment is everything and all of us, you know. So after a year or so, I was a complete American kid. And then, but then my dad's contract came to an end when I was about 12 and a half. So that was 1982. The difficult thing was I had to come back to England then.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With the American accent and the flares and the all American kid, you know, this was pretty much so the flares weren't in at the time. And started secondary school with the American accent, all the wrong clothes, not knowing anyone and. But yeah, I still have dual citizenship, you know, it's kind of useful sometimes, but.

[A]

Parents British?

[B]

My parents are British, yeah. And, and I, I did a lot of traveling in America when I was there and elements of it I absolutely loved and I still love elements of America, but there's a lot not to love nowadays as well, isn't there?

[A]

Wow. Yeah. What's new? Hey, what's new? The world keeps on turning.

[B]

You know, the. The America of Trump that, you know, is.

[A]

You know, I couldn't believe you were going to fart, to be honest. I mean, what can we do? We can just laugh.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now I'm gonna ask you for a question for our next guest. Have you got one?

[B]

How about, what is the first book that you read that you feel really changed you?

[A]

Oh, that's a good one.

[B]

You know, like, you've got that book that you're like, oh, my God, I didn't know a book could do this to me.

[A]

That's such a great question. I will pose that to our next guest next week. Oh, Paul, thank you so much for this. It's been great.

[B]

Yeah, I've really enjoyed it. Thanks for inviting me on. And congrats with Creative Boom. I mean, it's like you're interviewing me, but I can't believe what you've achieved with Creative Boom. It's, you know, just. You should be very proud of it. Incredible achievement.

[A]

Oh, thanks, Paul. Likewise. I mean, everything you've done, I hope you do give yourself a pat on the back now and again.

[B]

Now and again.