Crafting Stories, Finding Readers And Selling Direct With Ines Johnson

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Crafting Stories, Finding Readers And Selling Direct With Ines Johnson"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers
• Host: Joanna Penn
• Description: Writing Craft and Creative Business
• Episode: Crafting Stories, Finding Readers And Selling Direct With Ines Johnson
• Release Date: July 7, 2025

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Introduction

In episode 818 of The Creative Penn Podcast, dated July 7, 2025, host Joanna Penn engages listeners with a wealth of insights on writing craft, creative business strategies, and effective marketing techniques. The episode features an in-depth interview with Inez Johnson, a prolific romance author known for her versatility across multiple genres and her adept use of pen names.

Author Career Phases: Insights from Becca Syme

Joanna begins by discussing Becca Syme’s article and video on the five phases of an author’s career, which serve as a roadmap for writers navigating the publishing landscape.

1. Phase One: Research and Development

   • Learning to Write: New authors experiment with different styles and genres.
   • Testing the Waters: Building a reader base and understanding what resonates.
   • Financial Aspect: Often financially challenging, similar to pre-launch phases in business.
   • Quote: “You don’t know what you’re writing. You’re just like, oh, I’m writing a book.” (05:30)

2. Phase Two: Initial Growth

   • Monetary Inflow: Starting to earn money as readership grows.
   • Balancing Act: Managing increasing marketing demands while focusing on writing.
   • Community Building: Strengthening author networks for support.
   • Quote: “Focus on building your community, your author network, so you have support as you continue to write and grow.” (07:15)

3. Phase Three: Infrastructure Building

   • Scaling Up: Outsourcing tasks and investing in tools to streamline operations.
   • Challenges: Potential dip in profits due to increased expenses and reader impatience.
   • Delegation: Learning to say no and manage growing responsibilities.
   • Quote: “You probably have to start saying no more after saying yes for so long.” (09:45)

4. Phase Four: Growth of Investment

   • Rapid Expansion: Business grows quickly, bringing new challenges.
   • Self-Care: Importance of prioritizing personal well-being amidst growth.
   • Quote: “You need to prioritize self-care.” (11:30)

5. Phase Five: Mature Business

   • Stabilization: Revenue and profit stabilize, marking a mature phase.
   • Reinvention or Contentment: Authors may choose to reinvent themselves or find satisfaction in established success.
   • Quote: “Flatlining is a positive sign in a mature business.” (13:00)

Joanna reflects on her own journey, sharing that she has maintained a mature and stable business for about a decade, appreciating the value of not constantly chasing growth.

Lessons from Ryan Holiday

Joanna references Ryan Holiday’s blog post, highlighting key marketing lessons:

• Authenticity Over Pleasing Everyone:

  • Quote: “Stay true to your work and who you are.” (16:45)

• Focus on the Next Project:

  • Quote: “I was too focused on the next thing to get caught up in good or bad news.” (18:10)

• Importance of Exercise:

  • Quote: “Movement is the one thing I do not skip every day.” (19:25)

• Active Marketing is Crucial:

  • Quote: “Nothing is so good that it just finds its audience.” (20:00)

Joanna echoes Ryan’s sentiment on the necessity of active marketing and maintaining consistency in efforts to reach and expand one’s audience.

AI and Copyright Rulings

Joanna touches upon recent US court cases regarding AI training on copyrighted data, referring listeners to Orna Ross’s episode on Self Publishing with Ally. Key points include:

• Fair Use Considerations: Implications of AI training on copyrighted materials.
• Author Advocacy: Emphasis on consent, compensation, and clarity in AI usage.

Personal Book Research Trip

Joanna shares her recent research trip to Lichfield Cathedral, highlighting:

• Historical Significance: First consecrated in 700 AD, rebuilt in Gothic style around 1340.
• Unique Relics: Discovery of an actual relic of Saint Chad, unusual for an Anglican church.
• Ancient Fenland Black Oak Table: A 13-meter-long table from an oak tree predating Stonehenge.
• Inspiration for Writing: The experience inspired her latest short story set in an Icelandic Black Church.

Quote: “I had this real sense of deep time being with this table and you can touch it and everything.” (21:15)

Interview with Ines Johnson

The core of the episode is an engaging interview with Inez Johnson, a romance author with over 100 books across various subgenres. Below are the key topics discussed:

Background and Entry into Writing

Inez shares her unique path into storytelling, influenced by her upbringing in a funk band and her father's lessons on music composition as a narrative art form.

Quote: “I just knew I’m supposed to be in storytelling.” (22:57)

Self-Publishing Journey and Pen Names

• Initial Foray: Began self-publishing in December 2014 with serialized books on Kindle Unlimited (KU).
• Genre Exploration: Experimented with multiple genres including dystopian, sci-fi, and paranormal, leading to audience fragmentation.
• Adoption of Pen Names: To retain readership while exploring different genres, Inez adopted multiple pen names, allowing her to maintain distinct author identities without limiting creative freedom.

Quote: “Pick a lane and stay in it at KU, but it was more about the subgenres and I was just crisscrossing too many lanes on the highway to keep my readers.” (28:45)

Selling Direct vs. Publishing Wide

Inez discusses her strategy of balancing direct sales with wide publishing:

• Direct Sales Advantages:

  • Higher margins, especially with print books.
  • Ability to offer unique bundles and experiences not possible on platforms like Amazon.
  • Examples include selling special editions, merchandise, and exclusive webinars.

• Publishing Wide Strategies:

  • Utilizing platforms where specific genres thrive (e.g., paranormal romance on Amazon).
  • Understanding reader habits and platform strengths.

Quote: “Direct is an experience. It’s a lot. It’s bundles. That’s something that’s hard to do on Amazon.” (37:03)

Kickstarter Campaigns: Planning and Execution

• Pre-Launch Importance: Building trust with potential backers through sneak peeks and establishing credibility before the campaign.

  Quote: “The pre-launch page is to give you sneak peeks. It’s to build trust.” (46:29)

• Overcoming Fear: Inez shares her initial fears of running a Kickstarter and how mindset work helped her succeed in subsequent campaigns.

• Content Transformation: Converting her two-year mentorship content into the Page Turner Planning planner, which became the focus of her successful Kickstarter.

Quote: “I turned that two-year long experiment of weekly helping people to write their book to make sure their business was sturdy and on a good foundation into a planner.” (42:56)

Marketing Strategies: ADA Model and Consistency

Inez elaborates on her marketing approach, influenced by her background in television and screenwriting:

• ADA Formula:

  • Attention: Capturing the audience’s attention through compelling statements, visuals, and psychology.
  • Interest: Engaging storytelling within marketing content.
  • Desire: Tapping into emotional desires to connect with readers.
  • Action: Clear calls to action to encourage purchases or engagements.

  Quote: “Marketing boils down to Attention, Interest, Desire, and Action.” (53:00)

• Consistency: Emphasizes the importance of regular interaction and consistent promotion across various platforms to build and maintain an audience.

  Quote: “The consistency just because we've seen again that things in this industry change.” (54:43)

Advice to Romance Writers

Inez offers encouragement to aspiring romance authors facing stigma:

• Embrace the Genre: If you’re passionate about writing romance, pursue it despite societal judgments.

  Quote: “If you are not in that community, get yourself there. But if you're still scared, don't do it.” (60:17)

• Community Engagement: Join Romancelandia by participating in romance bookstores, library sections, and conferences. Building connections within the romance community can provide support and camaraderie.

  Quote: “If you speak romance into the world and you say you want a romance book sister, she will find you.” (63:25)

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Closing Remarks

Joanna wraps up the episode by reiterating the value of the discussion with Inez Johnson, highlighting her energy and expertise. She encourages listeners to explore Romancelandia and support Inez’s Kickstarter campaign for the Page Turner Planning planner.

Quote: “It's an intense interesting listen because I am not in Romancelandia, I've been looking at it from the outside and over the years I've sometimes been quite wistful about that.” (64:37)

Listeners are invited to leave feedback, connect on social media, and stay tuned for the next episode featuring Jo Walters on garnering more book reviews.

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This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the multifaceted aspects of writing and publishing, blending personal anecdotes with professional strategies. Joanna Penn and Ines Johnson provide valuable insights for both emerging and established authors aiming to refine their craft, expand their readership, and optimize their business practices.

Transcript

[Joanna Penn]

Welcome to the Creative Penn Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives, I'm Joanna Penn and this is episode number 818 of the podcast and it is Saturday 5th of July, 2025. As I record this in today's show, I'm talking to Inez Johnson about how she found her lane for writing and how finding success is a lot about deciding what your goals are as well as writing with pen names, selling in KU for some books and going wide for others. How selling direct can give you more options on what you offer readers, plus page turner planning, lessons from doing a Kickstarter book, marketing tips and all the fun you can have in Romancelandia. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing Things, Becca Syme talks about the five phases of an author career. And definitely have a listen to this or watch the YouTube video because I think it would help a lot of people who think they're just going to write a book and hit the big time straight away. So just a reality check on how long it takes in general and I think this is important to consider in any job in any industry. How valuable are you in year one of any new career? How valuable are you in year five? But by year ten you might be in a better place. So back to Becca's article and video. The five phases are Phase one research and development where you're really learning to write as well as testing and finding readers figuring out what you are writing. And this is really good to remember because I remember this and this happens to pretty much all new authors. You don't know what you're writing. You're just like oh, I'm writing a book. And then you have to kind of figure out what that is. Don't worry, that's normal. You will also most likely be out of pocket in phase one. You are like most pre launch businesses. It is slow going, but there's also this wonderful time. There's no pressure, no one knows who you are, there's no readers clamoring for the next book book. So make the most of it. Phase two, initial growth is when some money starts to come in and people are reading your books. But you have to prioritize writing amidst increasing marketing demands, which can be difficult. Some decisions may not yield results. And you need to focus on building your community, your author network, so you have support as you continue to write and grow. So in phase three, which Becca calls infrastructure building, you're writing and marketing and trying to keep up. And sometimes your profit will go down because you start to pay others to do work. You outsource more, you pay for more tools, and you probably experience some reader or audience frustration. When's the next book coming? You know, why can't you speak at this thing and this thing and this thing? So there's more responsibility. You probably have to start saying no more after saying yes for so long. You also need to learn delegation. Phase four is a growth of investment. So your business is probably changing, growing fast and dealing with those challenges. And you need to prioritize self care. And phase five is a mature business where revenue and profit stabilize. And Becca says flatlining is a positive sign in a mature business. Now, I actually really appreciated hearing this because there is always this sort of focus on growth, growth, growth. But I think we're actually a time in history, at least in the west, where we are questioning growth at any cost. And that is on a country basis, but it's also on an individual business basis. There is no need to keep going. Often when you start out, you think you have a particular goal and then maybe you reach a different level and you're like, you know what? I'm actually really happy here. And this is kind of where I am. I have a mature business. I have been stable and mature for around a decade, which is kind of crazy. And Becca says at this stage, authors typically either reinvent themselves, a new pen name, a series or genre, or perhaps a new business, or they downsize and find contentment with established success. So this is, I think, really interesting and worth looking at depending on wherever you are. It's good to look at this and recognize where you are in those phases and what are the good things about the phase and what are the challenges about the phase that Becca has seen many, many thousands of authors along years of coaching and can sort of see these patterns. It's one of her gifts, I think, is or skills in seeing these kind of patterns amongst the industry. And so yeah, I found this really useful to sor of say, okay, well, I am still doing a slow sort of reinvention, slow pivot and more on this as the year progresses because I do have more changes ahead. But Becca says there are certain tactics that don't belong in early phases of your author business. So audiobooks are not an investment if you don't know that you have a book that meets customer demand. Translations, not necessarily a thing. Direct sales, not necessarily a thing. Kickstarter, not necessarily a thing. There's a level of knowledge you need to have have testing you need to do a certain level of audience and number of books to know if you're going to be able to meet that. So again, a really good sort of sense check where are you and what is the type of thing you should be doing for where your business is. Also, I think it's a good reminder that there are two two different sides of what we do. So for example, I started my first business back in the year 2000. So I've been running businesses and I've run several different businesses in several different industries. Had a scuba diving on property investment. I ran my own consultancy before I became an author, podcaster, entrepreneur type. So my business skills were really well developed when I started writing. And so I was better at business than I was at writing. And so I spent years and still obviously I'm spending time investing in my writing craft and this. And there are people who've been writing books for many years who are incredible in the writing craft but have no experience running a business and might say, oh, I'm just going to self publish and just see what happens. But they have to learn business. So this is important too. How many years experience do you have with the writing craft and how many years experience do you have in business? And those two things are probably not exactly the same. I guess I should also say that even before my own business, I spent years working in other people's businesses. So I have more of a business background, which is why when I came into publishing, I was clearly going to run it as a business. So yes, please have a look at Becca's Quitcast. You can find it on the podcast app. You're listening to this or on YouTube. It's also good to remember that we can learn from different people. So I wanted to mention Ryan Holiday's blog post on Lessons from Writing every day for two decades. I don't think you could possibly get. Well, no, they're lots of very different people. But Becca, Becca Syme and Ryan Holiday are really very different people. I love his book Perennial Cellar, which is about writing something that lasts. And also he's been on this show twice over the years. He has his podcast, the Daily Stoic, and I think a lot of what he does is, is really interesting. Anyway, Ryan has this great article and just a couple of things he says don't get caught up trying to please everyone all the time. No one who has ever created anything has escaped criticism. It's inevitable that some percentage of people will not like what you do. You'll drive yourself crazy if you think you're somehow the exception to this. Stay true to your work and who you. So I thought that was great. I definitely am a people pleaser. I like people to like me. But obviously, as Ryan says here, you're going to drive yourself crazy if you're trying to do that all the time. So, yeah, I gave up on that a few years ago. I think midlife helps because you're just like, yeah, whatever, I'm just gonna do what I do and you can stick around. This is what I love about podcasting. I'm here on my own in my audio booth. You might. You'll be listening at some point. I mean, obviously you are listening to this because you're hearing my voice, but lots of other people will have. Will not be listening. Most people in the world will not be listening. But you've chosen to listen, and you have. You have chosen. So there's no forcing yourself into people's life. As a podcaster, you just kind of offer yourself up and people can either listen or not. And I just love that. I think that really helps. So, yeah, just offer people what you want to create, and some people will like it. A lot of people won't. Also, Ryan says, I accidentally stumbled into a process that protected me from disappointment and ego. I was too focused on the next thing to get caught up in good or bad news. Now I always try to start the next project before the last one launches, even arranging my schedule. So I'm working the day sales numbers come in to avoid getting caught up in the ups and downs of launch. Yeah, I totally agree with this. The best book is always the next one. I think that's just a creator attitude. We're always interested in creating more because we love creating, and once it's out in the world, it's kind of out of your brain and you can think about the next one. Also, he does talk about exercise, which I think is so important, I can't tell you how many times I've thought of a great line or solved an intractable writing problem. While running or swimming. Exercise is an easy win. Every day writing can go poorly, but going on a run always goes well. And I will substitute walking or weightlifting in instead of running and swimming. So whatever it is, movement is the one thing I do not skip every day. Unless, obviously, I'M sick and in bed, but I do not skip movement. And whereas I definitely do not write every day, I do read every day. So I read and I move those two things. That's a win. Also, finally, just a point on marketing. Ryan says nothing is so good that it just finds its audience. You have to bring it to them. As literary agent Bird Leavel puts to his clients, you know what happens if your book gets published and you don't have any way of getting attention for it? No one buys it. Plenty of artists can make great work. Not everyone has the dedication to make great work and market it. Marketing is where you distinguish yourself and beat out the talent whose entitlement or laziness holds them back. Ooh, a bit of tough love there from Ryan. But of course his background is in marketing, so he says again, marketing is where you distinguish yourself and beat out the talent whose entitlement or laziness holds them back. Yes, so if you think you don't need to do any marketing, well, think again. So that article is on ryanholiday.net and yeah, great post from Ryan. So in AI things, if you remember, last week I talked about two US court cases where training AI models on copyright data was considered fair use in cases against Meta and Anthropic who make Claude and Orna Ross on the Self Publishing with Ally podcast has an episode all about this, which I definitely think you should have a listen to called what the First AI Copyright Ruling Means for Authors. And as with anything Orna does, it is well thought out, clear and a useful middle way with no catastrophising. Either way. It goes into what the rulings mean for authors, how the alliance of independent authors ethical guidelines play into it, elements of fair use, a realistic view on what might constitute settlement at some point, and why Ally is advocating for consent compensation, clarity and also curiosity. So please go and have a listen to that. Just search for self publishing with Ally on your podcast app or link in the show notes to the transcript on self publishing advice.org now in personal news. Well, I had a really great book research trip. Artist's date to Lichfield Cathedral this week. So it is a Gothic cathedral. It was first consecrated in 700 AD and rebuilt in the Gothic style around 1340. My pictures and an article are up at booksandtravel page which is really where I blog now. There were two things that surprised me so one was an actual relic of Saint Chad, a 7th century saint, and regular listeners will know of my fascination with body parts in jars, whether that is anatomy Museums or religious relics, Catholic religious relics. Now, it's very unusual to find an actual relic in an Anglican church, if you know anything about the history of Christianity, Protestantism versus Catholicism, etc. So it is very unusual. So I was like, wow, that is cool. Also, they had this wonderful Fenland black oak table, 13 meters long, made of this ancient oak that was alive when Stonehenge was being built 5,000 years ago. So this tree was alive thousands of years before Christ. And I just had this real sense of deep time being with this table and you can touch it and everything. And it was so interesting being this tiny speck on the face of history in this ancient church with this ancient wood. And basically this wood had fallen into a peat bog which had preserved it. And I love this feeling of insignificance. I do talk about it a lot, I guess, a lot more on my JF Penn side of things and on my books and travel podcast. But I often feel it in cathedrals and in nature. So I think that is why I just had a real visceral sense of it with this wood. It was surprisingly mo. I can't justify it, really, in words, by saying it was a wooden table. I mean, it just. Yeah, it was really interesting feeling and this sensation of the atmosphere of this ancient place. And the photos are on booksandtravel page and there's a link to it. There's a lot of stuff online about this Fenland Black Oak project. And, yeah, actually coming back really helped me get into the final short story for my collection, which is set at the Black Church in Iceland. And. And I've been trying to settle on what the story would be really since we got back. And I woke up at the Black church on my 50th birthday and it is out on the Skaefellsnes Peninsula by these ancient glaciers and a dormant volcano that Jules Verne used as a way in for the journey to the centre of the earth. And in the story which I read again this week, because I was like, I'm going to read it again and see if it also helps. And this visit to Litchfield brought back the idea of deep time. And actually, in that story, if you haven't read it, I mean, obviously these older works of literature, I mean, although this is definitely pulp fiction, this is an early action adventure story. Jules Verne wrote loads of them and he does reflect on Deep Time. The main character is a geologist and they go down and he sees the geology of the earth and different creatures and all this different things. So I read the story again and realized that it is also about deep time. And so that helped me write the draft of the story. So the draft is done. That's what I also did this week. And because the church, the black church and there are again pictures on my blog at booksandtravel page. This church is in the middle of nowhere and it's on this ancient lava plain at the foot of the glaciers and very much deep time, this human structure standing against massive nature. And so that theme of deep time now echoes in the draft of the story, which I'm just resting for a few days just to come back to it with fresh eyes next week and I'll edit it and get it over to Kristen and then I will be putting together the collection. The pre launch page is up for the Buried and the Drowned and it is [e-mail] buried and you'll see the COVID there. And of course this black church story story is a buried story. I shall say no more. So also on a personal note, if you'd like to try any of my fiction, all my ebooks and audiobooks and Digital bundles are 50% off for July. Just go to jfpenbooks.com use July 25th at checkout and there's a direct link in the Show Notes so jfpennbooks.com 07-25-All Caps so thanks for your emails and comments and photos this week, Sunni said on Simon's 11 Labs interview. A very timely episode. Thank you. I've played around with 11 labs. It's amazing and was about to start making my first audiobook. But now I'll wait for version three. It's definitely being rolled out. Sunny Interesting to hear that Abby makes enough with her cloned voice to replace her full time income. Like you. As in like me. I'm struggling a bit with the moral dilemma of my voice being used for anything, but it might be a lucrative alternative stream of income if the appetite for Afrikaans English accents ever grows. And I love that because I personally love an Afrikaans accent and I think that the more varied accents we have available as licensed voices, the more we can do different cool characters. So for example, although my character is male, I do have an Afrikaans English character, Jake Timber in my arcane series. So he's a main character and that series has been narrated by a female American voice. Although because I started doing audiobooks such a long time ago and a American voices were far more common now I would actually love to try. I could actually do this because I've got all my rights back to my audio, but I could do a sort of dual version with British English female and Afrikaans English male. So I think if you have a different accent English, then yeah, definitely have a look at that. I think those voices will be in growing demand. Also, Diana says listening from Sandham in the Stockholm archipelago, Sweden, came across this tombstone. I thought you might enjoy a sea captain born in the COVID dead at sea and a memorial amongst the trees. Lovely. And Janet sent a picture listening from a bothy in Norway. Beautiful picture out to the misty trees. And that looks like a very nice bothy, Janet. Okay, so please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on the YouTube channel. Or you can email me, send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite church or cemetery or Gothic Cathedral. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation so today's show is sponsored by Atticus, which helps you write and format stunning books in both ebook and print. It works across all platforms so you can use it whatever computer you work on, Mac or PC, it is safe and secure, you own your data and it is also backed up to the cloud so you don't need to worry about losing anything. There are other kinds of software that do things separately, but Atticus has everything in one place so you can streamline your process. You can write your book in the editor built for authors with the ability to drag and drop chapters, manage your book goals and writing habit, tracking, word count and all the usual writing elements. You can also collaborate with others, a co author, editor or an ARC reader if you want comments on the book. You can then use Atticus to format your book or import an existing book to format. There are lots of different templates so you can choose the look and feel or use the custom theme builder and then you can preview your book on a variety of devices so you can see what it will look like. Your export will work with any book market and platform so you can get your book out into the world. Happy authors who use it say it is the one app to rule them all and easy to use for new writers. It's a one time payment and you get 30 days money back guarantee and you can start writing and formatting your book straight away. Check it out now@atticus IO. That's atticus IO. So this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] thecreativepenn thanks to the nine new patrons who've joined in the last week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. Years. And I also appreciate those people who pop in for a month or two and then go again because obviously it's not a forever subscription if you don't want it to be. And every little helps. If you join the community, you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering writing, craft and author business as well as demos and tutorials on AI. Last week we did a mid year check in for our creative goals and I have an article coming on French translation and the tools and companies are used for the that and how to adapt your covers with AI tools if you already have one in English, the Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com TheCreativePen Right, let's get into the interview.

[Inez Johnson]

You.

[Joanna Penn]

Inez Johnson is a romance author with over 100 books spanning paranormal, urban fantasy, contemporary and erotica, as well as sweet romance under another pen name. So welcome to the show, Inez.

[Inez Johnson]

Hi Jo. Thank you so much for having me.

[Joanna Penn]

Oh no, I'm excited to talk to you today. First up, tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

[Inez Johnson]

I'm gonna give you my answer to my three Lies and a Truth so you will always be able to win against me. I grew up in a funk band. That's always my truth. I grew up in a funk band and my father was the bass player. And one of my formative memories was of him explaining to me music composition and how the keyboard had its part and it was tell a story and the drums had a part and it would tell a story. And then finally the vocalist came on and they told a different story and how all of these work together to make the story complete, to be the characters. And it was from that moment I just knew I'm supposed to be in storytelling. I thought I was going to be a singer. My daddy said, oh sweetie, no, no, you're not going to be a singer. So I started in, I went through first through television and then I found my way into novel writing. So I worked in cable television for a number of years. I worked for National Geographic Television, if you remember. They had the Explorer show which was before they had channel. Loved that. Met so many fascinating people from all around the world. And then I started to work in children's television. While I was working in children's television, I've always been a reader. I've avid reader since I was super young. There's pictures of my. My youngest aunt corralling me and my cousins in a line off the. The city bus, walking into the. The library. And that was just the best thing ever. Us going to the library and being able to take books home. But my godmother, who lived a few blocks up the street from us in her pantry where they're supposed to keep boxes of pasta and cans of, like, beans, she didn't have that in there. Instead she had all these teeny, tiny little harlequins. You remember, like the harlequin present and the silhouettes. And that was my second library. And she said I could take whatever I wanted to and read. And I did. And she didn't try to censor me because back then it was like the waves would crash in the love scene. So I didn't know what that meant.

[Joanna Penn]

The fountain would erupt.

[Inez Johnson]

Oh, my God, yes. That kind of stuff where we didn't know exactly what was happening. We just knew there was a lot of water in romance. But I read those books and it became an absolute addiction for me. And it stayed with me even when I was working in television. When I went on to work on children's television, I was reading Twilight in between the scripts where these little kids were playing on a farm as part of the television show and the bug bit me. I would be writing screenplays, and then I would change the software over to, like, final draft, and from final draft to like, word or eventually scrivener. And I'd work on a novel. It took me years for that first novel to be recognizable as a piece of literature. It has not seen the light of day. But that was fine because after the first one, I wrote the next one, and I think a year, and then the next one in maybe six months, the next one in three months, and the next. Now I'm like a whole lot faster than that. But I always like to preface my air quote speed with the fact that I'm a trained screenwriter. So I. So 13 scripts per season, two seasons per year. That's normal pace for me. Me. So my brain doesn't think, oh, it's supposed to take a year or more to write a novel. No, you need to have this. This full script, this part of the story done in however much time that I had.

[Joanna Penn]

Well, that is really interesting. I think people who come from screenwriting, people who come from journalism are fast writers because they're like, yeah, I have a deadline, this is a job and I do the stuff and there's the words. And so yeah, I get that. So when did you first self publish? When did you decide to do that?

[Inez Johnson]

December 2014. I published my first serialized book. It was a three part serial back then. At that time it was really popular to do serial books. And this was like in the era of KU 1.0 where you got paid dollars no matter how long or short the book was. Remember those days?

[Joanna Penn]

So short lived.

[Inez Johnson]

I think that was very, very short lived for these short books. But it worked for me because that's how my mind is. I don't think in feature films, film, I think in episodes. So that really, really worked for me. And so I started to, to write these shorter stories and they would and they did well. And then I just wrote more and more. I at that time I only write romance, but I didn't understand that. I didn't understand genres at that time. I didn't really understand tropes. It means something different in the media world. So I started writing like a dystopian and then I wrote a sci fi and then I wrote a paranormal. And I was just going all over the place and each time I was building a new audience, they wouldn't follow like the people that read the dystopian, they were not interested in the contemporary. The people that read the contemporary, they were not interested in that paranormal. And it didn't make sense to me until, you know, this is the beautiful thing about Romancelandia and the authors that live here here. We will, if we see somebody who's trying their hardest and doing some good and they're making not the best decisions, they could be making better decisions. They will pull you up by your bra straps and say, girlfriend, let me give you some advice. And that's what happened to me. I had authors say it's fantastic that you keep finding an audience but you really want to try to retain them. And one of the ways to retain them is to pick a lane and stay in it. So I did get that pick a lane and stay in it at box, but it was more about the sub genres and I was just crisscrossing too many lanes on the highway to keep my readers. So that's when I decided pen names were for me because I didn't want to limit myself. So I just made more Than one pen name.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah. I must say this is something I've always done, writing all over the shop. And I have two main pen names for my fiction. I know that people don't cross over. And it's so weird, isn't it? Because I think many writers, I certainly read so many different genres, right. So I don't really understand people who only read one genre. But then I say that my husband for fiction, he only reads epic fantasy and that is it, you know, and he's very clear about what, what counts as well. So I do get it. But I guess how have the pen names worked for you? If people are listening and they're like, well, I don't want to stay in one lane forever. Is it that like write five books under one pen name and then change? How do you keep multiple names going?

[Inez Johnson]

Well, let me make sure that for the folks that are listening that you understand this. I think of the vast majority of readers probably will read like a handful of books a year. I don't think that indies are very. Are focused on those. On that, on the masses like that. We're very focused on the whale readers, the ones that read a book a day. I'm a whale reader. I read one to two books a day. Those people, we, they will often want one specific thing and maybe one specific thing for a period of time. Like I'm right now in a contemporary mood. I just want to read some smutty contemporary. And then probably next week I'll be in historical mood. And then after that I might be in a sci fi mood. A lot of these people, a lot of these whale readers are often mood readers. So you don't necessarily have to pick a lane and stay in it. However, if you want a faster route, route to profitability, this is a strategy that works. This is just a strategy, and it's a strategy that works. If you're looking at profitability, if you are an artiste with that little accent over the eye, then you don't have to listen to this advice. You do not have to listen to this advice. You have to determine what it is that you want out of your career. And really that's the lane that you need to pick in. And if inside that lane, it says you have to be a very focused genre writer and this specific genre stay in this particular narrow lane, lane, then you do that because that's your goal. If you are a different kind of writer and you want to write across various spectrums, then you just need to set your goals accordingly, find the right readers. And then stay in that beautiful. Let's not call it a lane, let's call it a highway. You're on a highway.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah. I do feel like the expectations often don't match up with what most newer writers, perhaps, or even more established writers, they think that you can maybe still write one novel and make a living or these other things. So apart from the focus, I guess if your goal is to make money, then focus on your highway. But what are the other mistakes that either you've made yourself or that you see others. Others make? Because we're all saying, girlfriend, give us some advice.

[Inez Johnson]

So that. But that's, that's the main mistake that I see is because some. One person's mistake can be another person's boom. And I really feel, feel that if you understand who you are and what you want, what your goals are, then I feel like you make less mistakes and you really don't make any mistakes. And they just become opportunities. Because for me, like, you are not going to see me talking about politics in my books. I'm trying to escape it as much as I possibly can when I'm going to the page to write, when I'm going to the page to read. So you're not going to see that. But then I see other authors who embrace it wholeheartedly and the readers love them for it. Or I see authors who post very personal things on social media. I am not that girl. I. I keep a lot of things close to my chest. I'm very bubbly, I'm very fun. You will feel like you know me, but you couldn't tell a lot of actual facts about me after you walk away from a conversation with me. And I don't suffer from that because I know what my limits are. And then other options, authors, that, that's some of them, they will. That's a mistake for them because they go too far. And unfortunately, humanity, we love a rise as much as we love a fall. So I really think it becomes about understanding who you are and understanding what you want. Because this industry changes so fast, you will get whiplash. And the things that that stays the same is you and your goals and why you're doing this. And if you can keep that close to your chest, I think again that any potential mistake becomes an opportunity that you can really see and dig deep and understand how to make the best of it.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned when you started you were in ku, but I think now you're selling direct as well as publishing wide. So a lot of people think that, oh, well, all romance authors, they're, they're just KU authors. So tell us about selling direct, selling wide. What, what do you do and what is some of your tips and lessons?

[Inez Johnson]

So I, I started KU because I didn't understand how to upload to the other retailers. And then eventually I learned. But I again, I'm always looking at what's my goal. And my pen names have different goals. So my nest pen names mostly writes paranormal and fantasy. That's what she does. My Shanae Johnson pen name is clean, wholesome romance. That's what she, that's her look, Lane. She sticks to it. Those are my two main pen names. So what I understand is that Cheney can be wide because if you look on Barnes and Noble, if you look on Apple Books or Google Play, you can see that contemporary western, contemporary military, contemporary, small town, like that, let's call it universal. Like, you will see that if you go to those platforms. But if you are looking at romanticy, if you are looking at paranormal romance, if you're looking at paranormal women's fiction, if you're looking at reverse harem, those were born on Amazon. Those specific categories were born there. So I, I'm always watching not only what is the industry doing, but what are the readers doing and where are the readers. So Shanae could go into KU with her clean and wholesome romance. But why when there's readers everywhere? A nest could come out of KU and do other things. But why when the readers are concentrated right there? So those are my reasons for doing that. And yes, I am selling direct and all of my. So print direct sales. I sell more in print direct than I do on Amazon and the margins are better for me there. So. So that's another thing to think about with direct. Nobody has an exclusive one right to your print book unless you give it away. But the other thing to think about when you're selling direct is how are you different? Then let's call Amazon the king. Because right now Amazon is where everybody's looking at. Amazon is everybody's boo. That's their boyfriend, right? But Amazon can't do everything. Amazon can't sell you the ebook, the audiobook, the print book, the special edition. Maybe you have some swag. Pacman. I so another Kickstarter that I did did was a fiction Kickstarter where I was selling a spicy romance. And I sold the ebook, the print book, the audiobook, and I also sold a webinar because inside the book there were some spicy times that dealt with rope and shibari. And so I got A shibari expert to come on and give my readers. So they all got some rope and they all got a special demonstration from this shibari expert. Expert. I can't do that on Amazon. So you're thinking about what can direct you that your boo Amazon can't. And you can give a completely different experience. You can give an. You can have tea parties with your readers and I bet they would love that. You can build a book box with all kinds of amazing goodies. I had a friend that actually made her readers, she's really crafty and she made them up. If you can't do that on Amazon, on with the book. So that's what you want to be thinking about. Direct is an experience. It's a lot. It's bundles. That's something that it's hard to do on Amazon and it's an experience that you can give your readers.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah, it's so funny, isn't it? Because I think people can get stuck in just the, oh, it's still ebooks in KU. But that might have been correct in 2014 when you started. But as you say, a lot of people are doing a lot more now. And also you can chart charge a lot more. Yes, that book box and all the, all the stuff and the webinar. And it's great that you're doing that for fiction as well because I think people think, oh, you can only charge the extra for non fiction.

[Inez Johnson]

You, you have to think literally, pun intended. Think outside of the box. Do you remember Jeff Bezos said one day Amazon will be disrupted?

[Joanna Penn]

I think it already is disrupted. Like it's a tech company now rather than just the store.

[Inez Johnson]

But even aside from being a tech company, we, we see that readers are interested in these beautiful books and Amazon can't produce these beautiful books. You're going to have to get a vendor account if you want to sell your beautiful hardbacks, special editions with the sprayed edges and all the interior artwork that you have, you're going to have to get a vendor license to do that. And so that's one of the ways that Amazon is being disrupted. They can't do this. They can't do it wholesale. The way that in the way that this is just sweeping the reader nation, they can't keep up with this. So I think everybody should even just be looking into what can you do with your print books.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah. And we can do so much. It's really. So you mentioned Kickstarter then. And I got your page turner pacing. Thank you, Joy. I know, which is great. And we all Love Kickstarter. It's really helping us do these interesting things. And you've got a campaign coming on, page turner planning. I want to hear about that because I think like planning is something that a lot of authors want to know more about. So tell us about that and also how you're running the Kickstarter tips for people who want to do that.

[Inez Johnson]

You know how I said you really have to know yourself And I know who I am. I know my why, I know my lane, my superpower. My number one strength on the CliftonStrengths chart is discipline. I like doing the same thing over and over again. But my number two strength is achiever. I have to achieve. I have to, I have to evolve. I have to win something new. Which it for the longest time those two just clashed against each other until I sat down and talked to Becca Simon. She explained to me, she explained myself to me. So yes, I'm a planner. I like to. Every day I get up I have a number of journals. I won't tell you how many, but every day I get up and I record my data. It takes. So even today, like when I first started to today it takes me, it cost me about 2500 to $3000 a month, month just to cover my living expenses and live comfortably. That hasn't changed. Will change from 25 to 3,000, but. So that's about $80 a day. So I sit down in my little journal and I go through and I check the dashboards to see how much I've earned and I write the numbers down. I'm not just writing it down from Amazon because I am wide. So I write all the numbers down. I don't put it in a spreadsheet, I just write them down. And that calms my mind. It reminds me, yes, yeah, you can do this self employed thing, you can do this small business thing. You are fine. You have made the money to cover your expenses. You're good. Now go have fun. And that's what my muse basically starts to write the book after that. And so people, people, when I'm on retreats, when I'm out and about, people look over my shoulder and they start asking me about my planners because I record that. I record my word count, I record what I'm doing, like what's going on in the story. I have tons of different journals to record all this information. And it always baffles me that people like how can you do that? I don't understand it really, it's really, it's really anti anxiety for me. But two years ago I wanted to because I had done this successfully, not one, but two pen names. So I'd, I said, I think I can teach somebody how to do this. I came from 15 years of teaching and then I stopped and then I only, and I only wanted to talk to authors. I didn't want to talk to other people in academia. I just wanted to talk to. And I was like, I think I can teach you how to do this. So I started a little mastermind where I was showing people how to write with, like I said, with the paste turner pacing. I show them how to do that. But I also, I didn't want to just leave them at writing the book. I was like, okay, well this is how I market it well. This is the things that I started to do before the book was even out. So these, this is all the prep work that I did. This is how I set up my Instagram, this is how I set up my website, this is how I set up my newsletter. I also knew that I needed to go into the bank bank because this wasn't going to be a hobby. So I knew I needed to go in and get a dba. Then that's, then that became an llc. Then that became maybe an escort. So I, and I, and because I do have a couple of degrees in education, I figured out how to deliver the information in bite sized chunks in a really good sequence that made logical sense. So I've been giving this information out and I would talk to them once more a week. This is what you should be thinking about in your writing. Not necessarily write this particular chapter, but have you thought about your characters and your subplots? Have you, what have you introduced these things that I call heartbeat moments where it can be a really great moment on TikTok that you pull and you put on your Instagram. Are you using a Facebook ad? Are you thinking about that? How's your business going this week? Are you, are you getting your expenses together? Ready for taxes? How's your branding? Are you pulling from content buckets and are, are you publishing them on Instagram and TikTok? And so I look back as I was supposed to be writing Page Turner Tension, which is the second book in my page Turner series. I look back at all this content and I said this is a book. More than 52 weeks worth of content. So that's what I did. I turned that two year long experiment of weekly helping people to write their book to make sure their business was sturdy and on a good foundation of making sure they knew how to brand and market themselves and I turned it into a planner. And that's patient.

[Joanna Penn]

I love that. I mean, well, first of all, it's very interesting that you have discipline and achiever. Oh no in your top five. That explains a lot because I do think though, I mean it was Sasha Black who got me into cliftonstrengths and I now use it all the time. Time. But my discipline is way down. Like people think I'm disciplined and I'm, I am not. But I, I have achiever at 6 so I think that's the driver for me. But it's really, it's so interesting that you, I love also writing down these numbers because I think that that is something that people avoid now. I, I don't do that anymore. What I do is log into my account accounting software so I don't write it elsewhere but I see it in my accounting software and I check that pretty much every weekday. I check my accounting software and I get feeds from the bank every day and PayPal and all of this. So I, I do monitor that. And I wonder for people just starting out, what you mentioned there in your page turning planner was quite a lot of things. You were like, oh yeah, you know all this stuff. So if people are like, oh my goodness. Well I can't possibly be like in s. I can't, can't do all of that. Is there like a simple way to get started with this planner? It doesn't have to be all the things all the time.

[Inez Johnson]

It is not all the. Yeah, it's not all the things all the time. So I, I want to that you, you're comfortable with me listeners. I have two degrees in education and I, and I taught art. I taught at an art College for 15 years. So I know how to handle an art artist. A creative who needs to, who I need to educate and I need to evaluate. I got you. So I, I, it truly is in small pieces that build and you don't realize that you're building again. I'm used to working with artists and they always want to look ahead. Look ahead if you want. But I promise you that I'm building slowly and I'm always building you towards something so you can, and you can also go and look on my sub stack and you'll see tons of this information there. I've just organized it in, in this planner where we start from Q1 week one. I'm giving you a couple of tasks that should not take you the whole week, but you have the whole week if you want it. And then in week two, we build on that. In week three, we build on that. Slow and steady, that's what wins the race. Slow and steady and structured, that's what wins this race.

[Joanna Penn]

No, I love that. I think that's really useful. So if we go into the. More Kickstarter, how does a Kickstarter work? So right now I think as this goes out, pre launch pages up. So why is that important for people who want to fund their Kickstarter? Why do that pre launch page?

[Inez Johnson]

Because these people don't necessarily know you, I think. I don't know what the statistic is, but Kickstarter basically says you're going to pull some people from your audience. Audience, but you're going to pull a lot of new people to you. And these people, these new people don't know you. So you have to introduce yourself. You have to build trust. I'm asking you for money from something that came from my brain and it could be a story or it could be this product that can benefit you. So in this instance, it's a product that will benefit you. But you don't know, I could be making all this stuff up. So I think the pre launch page is to give you sneak peeks. It's to build trust. Trust. And once you have those things, then I think people are more likely to come on board and give you a try.

[Joanna Penn]

And I think it's also because the campaigns are reasonably short and so people, I mean I still have people say, oh, I didn't hear about your campaign when you were running it. And I'm like, well, I thought I was being very noisy. But you know, some people miss it. So it gives you a bit more of a run up, doesn't it? But, but what, what other things did you learn from your last. Your Kickstarters that might help other people? Like any mistakes or definitely do this.

[Inez Johnson]

So the first thing is fear because I was terrified to run. I remember you saying that you were terrified. Yeah, I was terrified because you're again, I think both of us are introverts and we can have this great chat that will be put out in public. But we are both really people that probably like to sit in our houses and be quiet and write our books. So that's me. I don't, I don't like to put my business out there. And when you do something like Kickstarter, you're putting your business out there. Everybody can see it. Everybody can see if it succeeds or if it fails. And my very first Kickstarter I Did with Shanae Johnson, my sweet pen name. And she has a huge audience. I got 30 backers. I love my way. It might have not even been 30. I limped my way to funding that Kickstarter, and I was just all kinds of confused. I didn't understand it. So I was very hesitant to do a second Kickstarter. So very hesitant. I was thinking, everybody's gonna think, I'm afraid. Even though she continued to make money, even though after that Kickstarter was over, the readers were like, hey, do you have any more of those books? Can we just get them from you directly? And that's when I sold out. Where were you? You did not show up for me, which is a fear of mine, that people won't show up for me. So I really had to do a lot of mindset work. When I did my first non Kickstarter, the page turner pacing Kickstarter. But even before that, like, talking about it before it launched, that was the best thing that I did because, again, these people didn't know me. They didn't know if I was telling them the truth. I had to show you that I knew what I was talking about, about first. And once people saw that I knew what I was talking about and I was giving them tidbits of, you know, this could work for you. Here, take this information for free and try it and then come back and have a conversation with me. That's what worked. Having tears where they could just kind of try something out and see. Because I didn't. Over 700 people back that Kickstarter. Joanna, I still. I'm still breathless over it. I'm still breathless over it. I don't know. 700. I don't think I've met 700 people in my life. So I had to have a moment to convince them, or maybe I convince their friends that I know what I'm talking about. 1. But I can help you, and I'm really here to help you. Whenever I open my mouth to tell somebody what I know, I'm not expecting to get anything in return. I just like explaining the things that I know because it makes me feel good. Because I think to myself, you really know what you're talking about. Good job. You do this stuff and you're a teacher.

[Joanna Penn]

I mean, like you said, you've got two degrees in teaching and all those years of experience. So, I mean, I think that makes a real difference that you've. You obviously like teaching as well. I think that's really important. But I do want to ask you because like, you've mentioned substat, you've mentioned Instagram, but I noticed that you put your YouTube on a hiatus. So I wondered, in terms of book marketing, people are always asking what should be done now. What have you kept doing since 2014 and what have you changed up as things have shifted?

[Inez Johnson]

So I. It's so fascinating. I fascinate myself. I'm constantly studying me, like, wow, why did you do that? And so I get these bursts of energy where I just. I figure something out and I just want to tell everybody because I want us all, I truly want us all to win. So when you do see me with my face showing up on Instagram or TikTok, I figured something out and I want to show everybody. But then once I told you, then I go away. But I'm always writing do. You will not find me without a piece of paper and a pen somewhere on my person. So things like substack really work for me because I have so much to write about on the nonfiction side as well as the fiction side side. So that just works for me. But when it comes in terms of marketing, I really rely again on what I learned in my television and screenwriting days. And the best marketing advice that I can give, other than my number one thing, is to find one new reader every single day. And I might find them using an AMS ad or a Facebook ad. I might find them with an Instagram post or a TikTok. I might go out to a book signing at a local Barnes and Noble, and I might find them that way. Way. Every day I'm looking for just one new reader. This is every day I go in and I track my income. Every day I'm looking for one new reader. So that's it to a nutshell. But if I try to distill what I learned in my time in television, we have this formula called ADA I A I D A A stands for attention, I for interest, D for desire, and A for action. That's really what. What marketing is to me. How are you going to get these people's attention? And in the ADA formula, which I think I have, I've written about on my substack, you can go look@it substack.com which you can go and look for Ada Aida. And there's a list of things that we learned how to do in the school of communications to get people's attention. It might be a startling statement. Some people you could use music or you can use. We learned color theory. We learned so much psychology. Be worried when you're watching a screen, you guys, because at least in my generation, I'm Gen X, we learned so much psychology of how to keep you in your seat, of how to get you to think about us. That's why when things like when Jennifer Lynn Barnes was talking about her psychology of fiction, like I ate that up. And then I went and I read her her teacher's theses and dissertations because I was so fascinated by it. So it's attention, all the ways to get people's attention, attention. And then interest basically starts the storytelling bit of it, where you start to tell a story as part of your advertising play on people's desires. We have intellectual desire, logical desire, but we mostly deal with emotional desires. And then we have to tell them to act. That call to action, that's what marketing boils down in a nutshell to me. Whether you're going on TikTok or you're going on Instagram or you're doing a Facebook ad or you're selling, you're pitching and doing hand selling in person, it all boils down to those four things.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah, I totally agree with you. I mean I heard, I first heard that as well when I got into books and stuff and realized that I had to learn how to actually sell books. I wasn't just about writing them, but I guess so. The interesting thing though is to me, after so many years doing this now is what, what stays the same? Because as you said, a lot does change. But for example, for me, me, I still have an email list that I've been growing since day one. And the email marketing side of it, I don't think has changed. As in we, we can go wherever we go, but the goal is to be able to talk to somebody again. So, and you're now you're using substack, which I don't do. Do you think this has the substack kind of replaced email marketing or do you still have email marketing at the basis of your marketing?

[Inez Johnson]

So the stuff stack is purely nonfiction, but I email my fiction list every week. I, and that's what I think is the thing that has stayed the same for me is the consistency. I consistently publish, I'm consistently telling stories and consistently talking to my audience. I don't stop, I'm consistently promoting. I, I think with Sky Warren came out with a 52 week promo strategy so that you can be in front of people every single, every single week. It's the consistency just because, because we've seen again that things in this industry change. But you there's a part of you that doesn't change and that's your goals of I want to succeed. That is your number one goal. So you just have to change how you're going to succeed based upon what is moving and shaking in the industry. It's that consistency and just showing up and using a. And telling your story. Story.

[Joanna Penn]

So I guess the point there is it doesn't matter which other way you choose. You have to choose something other. Like, I think the email marketing has to happen. The consistency of production and publishing has to happen. But if someone chooses TikTok or if someone chooses Substack or YouTube, it doesn't really matter. You just have to pick something.

[Inez Johnson]

Yes, you have to pick something. Absolutely. Pick something. Go with it.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah. And do you. I mean, a lot of people at the moment as we record this, but this always happens. People are like, oh, Facebook ads have stopped working. Amazon ads have got more expensive, blah, blah, blah. How much is paid advertising a part of your marketing strategy?

[Inez Johnson]

It's very much a part of my marketing strategy. I am always looking for where are the readers? And if you tell me that I can come on Facebook where there's a lot of readers who read the books that I read and that all I have to do is pay some money to talk to them, I'm gonna pay you because otherwise I have to. How else am I gonna find them? It gets harder to find. I. I'm thankful for paid advertising. Thankful, yes, for social media. But a lot of times you're at the mercy of the algorithms that change all the time too. Like everything is going to change. So, yes, I'm going to do the social media. Yes, I'm going to do the paid cost per click marketing. Yes, I'm going to do the paid newsletters. Yes, I'm going to purchase a table at a signing event because guess who's there? The readers. I think we need to reframe this. My dad always says it takes money to make money. So that's how I came into this business, knowing that I was going to have to spend. Now I have my thresholds and I know when I'm spending too much money and it's not worth it that you decide for yourself. But I don't think that we can expect to come into a business and then just start making money for free.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah, it's again, we come back to expectation. I feel like so many people are still stuck there. Like, why? Why? I just published my book on Amazon. Why is. Why aren't I making money?

[Inez Johnson]

So did a Few thousand other people publish their book the same day that you did. Boo.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah, the same minute as you did these days. But yeah, that I think that's interesting. I mean, like we said, you've been doing this over a decade now. You will have seen people leave the industry as I. As I have. So what do you think? You. Why are you still here? Basically, why are you still doing this? Why are you still upbeat when other people have left?

[Inez Johnson]

I am unemployable.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah, me too, to be fair.

[Inez Johnson]

But it goes back to my dad. It really goes back to my dad. And that lesson that I learned sitting in front of one of those huge speakers is this is how story works, works. And I feel, I feel like that's why I succeeded, because I understand how story works at a granular, granular level. And that's what I try to tell people. That's what I try to do. Like, I studied story structure. That's why I'm an air quotes fast writer. It's not because I'm a plotter or a panther or a discovery writer. It's because I studied the art form that I so love. And that's what I think, think that I never stop studying. I feel like every book that I write is me practicing a new lesson. And that's truly how I go into these books. What am I going to study today? Maybe I watched a television show and they did something with an unreliable narrator. And I'm like, bet I want to try that. I'm going to figure out how the obligatory scenes of the of a trope with an unreliable narrator. And maybe if there's a hidden identity and maybe it's a bully romance. I will never write bully romance, but I will break that down looking for the structure, the way that I was taught to look in screenwriting. And then I will write that book. So that's why I think I'm still here. I think I'm still here because I understood structure. And I'm a consistent, permanent student of.

[Joanna Penn]

The structure of story and business as well, I guess.

[Inez Johnson]

Yeah, I would business. There was some luck there. But yes, I think. You know what? You know what too? I think because I came from business, I came from corporate television, the National Geographics, the Discovery Channels and Black Family Channel. That I understood because we the media, you have to market. So I always understood that I will not be a success unless I find the audience. I talk to them, I get my product, product in front of them. So that's where the business side came in for me, from understanding that.

[Joanna Penn]

Well, then you mentioned the art form that I love, which is a wonderful phrase. And let's come back to romance, because it feels like. I mean, in the indie community, since I've been an indie author, romance authors have always been the fastest movers and mostly the most successful in terms of business and sales. And so I feel like in the indie community, romance authors have a real position of prestige. Like, that's how I feel about romance authors. Like, I wish I could be that. It's just not my thing. But it's like, this is amazing, but it still feels like you mentioned the harlequins at the beginning in the pantry, and there's still some kind of stigma. It feels in main, like mainstream publishing. So what do you say to any authors who are like, I really love writing romance, but I'm scared of writing it because of what people might say, what their family might say, what their friends, or what people who are sort of judgy might say.

[Inez Johnson]

Hey, Joanna, this is when my feral Gen X is about to come out. I think that I seriously, like, I think that if you're afraid, I don't think you should do it. If you don't believe in that field of fear and do it anyway, if you're. If you're afraid, don't do it. Do something else, because the romance readers will smell it on you. We are also feral creatures. I. And when you say stigma, I forget that so often that outside of Romancelandia, that there is a stigma because the party inside Romancelander is so loud, it is on and popping and we're all cheering each other on that we forget, like, we don't. We don't come outside a lot. And when we do, we're like, oh, why are you guys out here? Come inside. It's great in here. So if you. I feel like if you are not in that community, in the Romancelandia community, one, get yourself there. But if. Even if after you come outside the doors and you're like, I'm still scared, don't do it, because we, the romance readers, will smell it on you. And that's fine. You don't have to. You do not have to write romance. You can write something with a romantic element. Element, and then. Then that might do better for you because romance is still its own genre, its own sub genre inside of other categories of genre fiction. Cool. Don't do it if you're scared.

[Joanna Penn]

Okay? So then if someone's like, oh, well, I want to come inside Romancelandia, what's funny is there'll Be some people who've never heard that term before. Now I have. But you don't. Go to romancelandia.com right. So. So how do people come inside Romancelandia? What are the best ways for a new writer to be part of the community?

[Inez Johnson]

Go to if you have a romance bookstore in your area like I just did my first trip to New York to. To the Rook Bodice in New York. And I walked in those doors and I was like, I'm home. That's what it feels like. Go to the romance section of your library. You will find a friend. Go to the romance section of your bookstore. Trust me, you will find a friend. I don't know what it is about the people in this world, in this magical land, but as soon as we see you next to us and you pick up a book, we have something to say. Girl, don't know. Not that one. Girl, you need to read this one instead. Or do you know what happened in that book? You won't believe it. Do you want to be in a book club? The energy of this, this particular magical land. If that's not enough or if you don't have a bookstore with a romance section in there, fine. Go and look up romance conferences. You will find them. Because go look up Romance Writers of America. Even though they've struggled, there's still pockets of the groups and chapters that have broken off that want to talk to you, that will welcome you inside. All you have to do. I really feel like you have to. You know how when you get a new car and all of a sudden you see your car everywhere on the road? I really think if you speak romance into the world and you say you want a romance book sister, she will find you.

[Joanna Penn]

No, I love that. And we should say there are also romance brothers. There are men writing romance. I guess that is a smaller group, I suppose.

[Inez Johnson]

I hear 20% is the number that is bandied about. I have no idea. Idea.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah. And all kinds as you say. I mean Romancelandia has many sub lands and subcategories so there's some. There is something for everyone, isn't there? But I. I love that. Right. So we are out of time. So where can people find you and your books and your kickstarter online.

[Inez Johnson]

So if you're an author, you'll want to go and read. I've got tons of content on my substack. So go to ineswrites.subsect.com and you'll see tons and tons and tons and tons of content. I am a faucet if you want to read any of my books, you can go to nestwrites.com for that paranormal and that fantasy all spicy so you know, gird your loins. If you want to read something clean and wholesome that you can share with your mom or your auntie or your daughter, then you go to Shanae Johnson.com for for that content and the Kickstarter you should be able to find on Substack or on my site, but that should be at inesrights.com forward/kickstarter for the future in your planning.

[Joanna Penn]

Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time Ines. That was great.

[Inez Johnson]

Thank you so much.

[Joanna Penn]

So I hope you found the discussion with Inez inspiring and useful. I love her energy and if you get a chance to listen to her in person, then definitely do it as she is, just as you heard her, super encouraging and it's also so intense interesting to listen to her. Because I am not in Romancelandia, I've been looking at it from the outside and over the years I've sometimes been quite wistful about that. Those within the community have a lot of drama for sure, but also a lot of fun and there are some of the top sellers and top business people in the author business there, and the top ranks of indie authors for sure. So if you love ref romance, head on over to Romancelandia, wherever you might find it. And of course check out Inessa's Kickstarter. And just a tip, if you back a Kickstarter, the creator will respond to your message much faster than if you just email them out the blue. So if you have questions for Iness, that is a good way to send them. So let me know what you think of today's episode. Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or email me joannathecreativepenn.com Send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard or cathedral. Next Monday I'm talking about how to get more book reviews with Jo Walters. A really useful episode with loads of practical tips because let's face it, we always need more reviews. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] blueprint if you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and x hecreative pen or on Instagram and Facebook. Fpenauthor. Happy writing, and I'll see you next time.