Creating While Caring With Donn King

Summary

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The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers

Episode 835: Creating While Caring with Donn King

Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Donn King (author, professor, pastor, podcast host)
Date: November 3, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Joanna Penn speaks with Donn King about the realities of creating while caring: how to maintain creativity, particularly writing, when you are a primary caregiver. Donn shares his personal experience of caring for his daughter with a rare disability, discusses why standard productivity advice often fails caregivers, and outlines practical and emotional strategies to keep creating, even during the most challenging seasons of life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Donn King's Writing Journey

• Early Career: Writing from age 12, newspaper discipline ("You can't wait on the Muse – you've got a 3 o'clock deadline every day." [16:44])
• Career Highlights: Editor for early electronic magazines, co-authored textbooks, wrote for business and local publications, copywriting for Walmart and Sam's Club.
• Creative Block & Rediscovery: Experienced a decade-long period of not writing, attributed to depression from neglecting his creative core.
  • “I thought I wasn’t writing because I was depressed. It turned out I was depressed because I wasn’t writing.” [19:47]
• Return to Writing: A friend's encouragement led him to write again, effectively “opening the floodgates.”

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2. The Realities of Full-Time Caregiving

• Daughter’s Condition: Rare chromosomal disorder; high medical needs, including tracheostomy, continuous feeding, frequent medication, and severe mobility impairment ([20:31], [27:33]).
• Care Responsibilities: For years, averaged 40–50 hours/week caregiving on top of full-time teaching job. Spent 108 out of 168 weekly hours in direct care.
• Impact on Life: Creative dreams often deferred or disrupted by unpredictable care needs.
  • “Hannah has taught us to make your plans, but hold them lightly because they’re going to change.” [30:34]

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3. Why Write This Book?

• Prompted by Experience: Recognized the need for a book centered on creativity and caregiving after a conversation with Joanna Penn ([21:12]).
• Widespread Relevance: Estimated 50 million unpaid caregivers in the U.S. alone; many creatives find themselves in this sudden, transformative role.

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4. Why Standard Productivity Tips Fail Caregivers

• Unrealistic Advice: Blocked time, sacred writing spaces, and “write every day” don’t work for most caregivers ([27:33]).
• Unpredictability: Schedules are out of one's control, making routine-based productivity unattainable.
• Perfectionism: Let go of best practices; focus on progress, not perfection or typical publishing/marketing standards.
  • “If I wait until I’ve got everything lined up for that, I’m never going to get a book out.” [31:16]

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5. Emotional Landscape: Fatigue, Guilt, and Hope

• Emotional Toll: “Emotional fatigue dulls hope. It whispers, ‘Why bother?’” [41:07]
• Strategies for Coping:
  • Recognize that feeling heard matters.
  • Success should be defined by what you can control, not external metrics (sales, launch success).
  • "Focus your success measures on what you can control, not only is good advice for every writer, but especially for people like caregivers who have so much of their lives that they don't have that sense of control." [33:57]

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6. Practical Productivity Tips for Caregivers

• Embrace Interruption: Learn to work amid constant interruptions.
• Capture Ideas: Keep a notebook, phone, or use dictation apps like “Say & Go” to record fleeting thoughts ([35:42]).
• Use Technology: Portable keyboards, laptops for on-the-go writing. AI tools (e.g., ChatGPT - nicknamed “Lizzy” by Donn) can help organize and review manuscripts ([52:58]).
• Breadcrumbs for Continuity: Use notes (like square brackets) to mark unfinished sections for easy pickup after interruptions ([39:41]).
• Let Go of Guilt: Accept help and take breaks for personal well-being.
  • “You’ve got to let go of the guilt of thinking I need to be with that person all the time.” [38:46]

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7. On Meaning, Nihilism, and Creating in Difficult Times

• World Fatigue: Recognizes global emotional exhaustion and the struggle to find meaning.
• Mindfulness: Draws on Eastern philosophy – “chop wood, carry water” – focusing on small, attainable contributions ([42:11]).
• Impact: Every act of creativity counts—be it fiction as escape or nonfiction as support.
  • “Through our books…we are emphasizing that as humans, we have more in common than we have differences.” [47:10]

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8. Life Changes: Transitioning Away from Primary Care

• Daughter’s New Home: Recently moved Hannah into a specialized care facility—a major adjustment bringing both relief and complicated emotions ([48:22]).
• Routine Restored: For the first time in 22 years, Donn can block out creative time and return to earlier writing practices ([52:48]).
• Advice to Others: Don’t feel guilty about seeking full-time care; do what's best for the whole family.

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9. The Importance of Community and Connection

• Podcasting: The Alignment Show arose from a desire to explore realignment in life; podcasting creates both community and personal satisfaction ([54:39]).
• Isolation & Caregiving: Virtual communities and creative projects can mitigate isolation and provide encouragement ([58:07]).
• Caregiver Health: Stresses the importance of self-care; caregivers often put their own health last.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I thought I wasn’t writing because I was depressed. It turned out I was depressed because I wasn’t writing." — Donn King [19:47]
• “Make your plans, but hold them lightly because they’re going to change.” — Donn King [30:34]
• "Focus your success measures on what you can control…especially for people like caregivers who have so much of their lives that they don't have that sense of control." — Donn King [33:57]
• "Emotional fatigue dulls hope. It whispers, why bother? It convinces you that what you have to say has already been said or that even if you manage to get the words out, they won't matter." — Joanna Penn quoting Donn King [41:07]
• “We are emphasizing that as humans, we have more in common than we have differences.” — Donn King [47:10]
• “Don’t feel guilty if you realize that you just cannot keep up the care. Do your best. Find the best care that you can get.” — Donn King [51:05]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Donn King’s Writing Background: [16:33 – 20:13]
• Caregiving Story & Family Context: [20:30 – 27:33]
• Productivity Myths for Caregivers: [27:33 – 30:33]
• Letting Go of Perfection and Deadlines: [30:33 – 32:27]
• Defining Success When Life is Unpredictable: [32:27 – 34:36]
• Practical Tools & Idea Capture: [35:42 – 40:56]
• On Emotional Fatigue and Finding Purpose: [41:07 – 46:59]
• Writing as Universal Connection: [47:03 – 48:22]
• Transition to Care Facility, Emotions and Writing Routine: [48:22 – 54:10]
• Creativity, Podcasting, and Building Community: [54:22 – 58:07]
• Caregivers and Health/Resilience: [58:07 – 59:24]

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Where to Find Donn King

• Website: donnking.com (Donn with 2 Ns)
• Podcast: thealignmentshow.com
• Books: donnking.com/books
• Book discussed: donnking.com/creatingwhilecaring
• LinkTree: linktr.ee/donking
• Active on: LinkedIn

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Conclusion & Takeaways

If you are (or may become) a caregiver, Donn’s story and practical advice provide validation, empathy, and concrete survival strategies. The episode challenges conventional creative productivity wisdom and underlines the importance of self-compassion, connection, and redefining creative success within the unpredictable limits of caregiving. Both hosts emphasize that despite hardship, creativity matters—sometimes most of all.

“When we write our stories…we are emphasizing that as humans, we have more in common than we have differences. Yes, there are those things that divide us, but…all those differences disappear and we just all have more in common than we have differences. And through our writing…that’s a real service that we provide to people in times of hopelessness.” — Donn King [47:10]

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Creative Penn Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives. I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 835 of the podcast. And it is Monday the 27th of October 2025. As I record this early as I am heading to Las Vegas for Author Nation this week and in fact, as this goes out, I will be there. So say hi if you're there too. In today's show, I'm talking to Don King about creating while caring. We we talk about what happens when your creative dreams collide with the demands of caregiving, how you keep writing when you're caring for someone full time, and can you still be creative when traditional productivity advice just doesn't work? So that's coming up in the interview section. So in writing and Publishing things, I'm always interested in examples of imaginative licensing around intellectual property. And this week a new partnership was announced by the BBC and other outlets. Agatha Christie meets Mr. Men in New Children's books. Although, let's be honest, it's definitely crossover. In fact, many of the buyers will probably be adults who want to read the stories to children and reminisce or perhaps just read them themselves. So in a first for Agatha Christie, four of the crime novelist's famous mysteries are being adapted for children with the help of the Mr. Men and Little Misses. The illustrated books, aimed at preschool and primary age children, will feature Christie detectives Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple working alongside Roger Hargreaves, much loved children's characters. Two of the books published, Little Miss Marple, Model at the Vicarage and Mr. Poirot, Mischief on the Nile, are coming soon. In fact, they're probably out by the time this goes out, with two more to follow in February, James Pritchard, Agatha Christie's great grandson, said it was a dream collaboration forming part of Agatha Christie's Agatha Christie Limited's anniversary program. That's actually a thing in itself, right? It's not Agatha Christie's estate, It's Agatha Christie Limited, marking 50 years since the celebrated author's death. So I like this because this is really clear that Agatha Christie's family is still involved in the estate. And it's really, I think it's pretty cool to see this now. Obviously very unlikely that Any of us will ever be as big as Agatha Christie or the Mr. Men and Little Misses, but we can do collaborations across our own series or with other people. So for example, my novella Day of the Vikings features Morgan Sierra from my arcane series and Blake Daniel from my Brooke and Daniel crime thrillers. And so you can do these crossovers, you can collaborate with other authors. But of course, if you do that, make sure you have a clear contract in place as you are co mingling the intellectual property. I can't imagine how complicated the contract must be for this because of course Poirot and Ms. Marple, I think the Nile story there is actually based on the Murder on the Nile and it's really interesting. I'm definitely going to get one of those books for sure to have a look at that. I think it's really interesting to consider different forms of using our intellectual property. If you own and control your books, you can make decisions like this and follow opportunities and a kind of a different kind of collaboration and co writing. Not quite as big, but still wonderful. Over on the Stark Reflections podcast with Mark Leslie Lefebvre, Mark and Mattie Dalrymple discuss their co written book, the podcast guest playbook. And they emphasize lots of things but the importance of serving an audience over selling personal connections and building community over cold pitches. And don't treat podcasts like infomercials. They say you share generously, give away all the tips you can. It never stops people buying your work. I totally agree with this as a listener and as a podcast host. I hate it when people hold back and say well that's in the book. Or if you buy my book it says blah blah blah. In fact I if people do say that, I will cut it out of my own interviews. So you'll never hear that on my show. So yes, just give people everything you can, all the value you possibly can. I would also say if you're doing multiple interviews on the same book, make every interview personally personal and different. Some of the same things will obviously come up if you're talking about the same book, but make sure to ask the host what they think about a topic. Do your research beforehand. Make it more of a conversation than an interview because podcast listeners will know the host and they appreciate it if you do too. And of course you can use ChatGPT to research them and the audience, but at least listen to part of an interview as well. So Mark and Matty also give tips on collaboration and co writing, like being intentional and clear about who has the manuscript at the time so there aren't mistakes when working on the same thing. Also look at building relationships that could be beneficial to both parties and nurturing the co writing relationship since it might lead to more opportunity. Mark and Matty have now co written two books together, the podcast Guest Playbook and also taking the short tack around short fiction. So another interesting discussion there. And of course Mark and Matty are both really professional podcasters, so it's a great conversation that's on Mark's podcast, Stark Reflections on writing and publishing episode 440 so in personal news, as this goes out, as I said, I will be in Las Vegas along with over a thousand other authors for Author Nation. And so I thought I would take the opportunity to give my semi regular pep talk on pushing your comfort zone for my own benefit as well as hopefully yours. And it may not be around author conferences. It could be all kinds of other things, but pushing your comfort zone is always a good idea. So in the last week as I record this, I have struggled with the idea of going to Las Vegas. I don't like being away from Jonathan and our cats. It is a long flight. Not as long as Australia and New Zealand, which of course I've done a lot, but it's still 10 hours. It is expensive and seriously, you need a big coffee budget for Las Vegas. It is a bright and noisy city and it is hell for highly sensitive introverts. It's also incredibly dry. There's the risk of getting sick being amongst so many people and I feel this because the first time I went to Vegas I was really, really sick and it was terrible. I've been a lot more careful since then with the nasal sprays and the eye drops and trying to keep all the viruses out. But it is very tiring, even just with jet lag. There's an eight hour difference to the UK, so I'm usually up in the early hours, 1 2am Sort of bouncing around. And of course the peopling is tiring as well. It takes time to recover afterwards. So it really is a sort of two week commitment for a five day conference. You really have to push your comfort zone to attend conferences like this. So why the hell do we do it? I might have really put you off forever, but there is a very good reason. I think it's it is important to acknowledge that these things are challenging, but that's what pushing your comfort zone involves. It involves doing things that are challenging. So we do it for all the positives. And that's what I want to emphasize because as I'VE started packing and printing off my documents and things and doing all the stuff you do. I started looking forward to to the trip. The reality of being in a conference center with so much positive energy about being an author, so many author friends and patrons and listeners, so many people who care about books, both author attendees, but also the vendors who are there. Everyone at Author Nation cares about books and if in doubt, just ask people what they're reading at the moment or what do they write or I mean, there's always something to talk about at an author conference, which is books. There's so much new and inspiring information, new ways of looking at things, different perspectives, different opportunities to learn. Also, time away from the day to day to concentrate on my author business because this is a time of transition, as I discussed with Becca Syme on last week's show. And it's important to work on the business, not just in the business, especially when things are changing. So I know I will have lots of ideas and I always do. When I have this kind of time away. It will be pretty intense, but I will definitely share some of that with you since obviously most of you won't be at Author Nation. But this advice is true about many author conferences. It's true of other areas where we push our comfort zones. It might be in fitness or emotionally or intellectually or socially, all kinds of challenges that we can do to push our comfort zones. Because you have to think of it like a rubber band or an elastic band. It will constrict around you unless you keep pushing it out and you don't want your world to shrink and keep shrinking. I feel this is especially damaging in a world of social media, when your world can narrow to a screen. And not just a screen, a screen filled with a personalized feed which may lead you to think that the world is crazy and dangerous. And in fact, most people are nice and want to help and most people just want to look after their kids and do their work and get on with life. And the world has so much beauty and potentially wonderful things going on. You just have to make an effort to get out and see them. I do think it's important to say you don't have to agree with everyone. I think one of the important aspects of going to a conference like Author Nation is to essentially the no religion, no politics attitude because we can just agree around lots of things, like we love books. That is a nice thing to agree on. We don't have to agree around all the other things. I mean, people have different opinions. That is normal. And part of pushing your comfort zone is being with people who think differently and still keeping an open mind and finding the things we have in common again. We love books, not the things we disagree with. So I'm going to Vegas with a positive attitude, ready to connect and learn. I'm spending speaking several times. We're having a patron meetup. I have lots of meetings. I'm looking forward to soaking up the energy. Also, James Patterson, the thriller writer is doing the closing keynote on disruption and in fact he has a book. It is out now in the us, coming in December here in the uk. It's called Disrupt Everything and Win, the proven and effective way to harness change into a force for success. The blurb says disruption is everywhere from artificial intelligence to economic uncertainty to the pandemic's effect on the workplace. We've never seen anything like it in our lifetimes, but how can we use disruption to our advantage? So I've pre ordered the book here in the uk, although maybe once I'm in the US I might actually find it in a bookstore. But James Patterson definitely disrupted book marketing back in the day. I think he was the first person to do a TV ad for one of his books. I think Along Came a Spider was his sort of famous ad. He did come from advertising, so this was him sort of bringing lessons from one industry into another. And he also disrupted the publishing model by essentially starting his own imprint and co writing with so many different authors. His business model is collaborative and also disruptive, so his keynote alone should be interesting. And of course, well, slightly annoyingly I'm leaving that evening so I I will be in his keynote for most of it, but then I'm gonna have to go. But the book is called Disrupt Everything and Win by James Patterson and Patrick Leddin if you want to check that out. So no comments or emails as literally the episode with Becca just went out as I'm recording this. But as ever, please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on the YouTube channel or email me about your thoughts joannathecreativepenn. Or send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation. So this episode is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, Kobo's free, fast and easy self publishing platform favoured by independent authors all over the world. KWL was built by authors for authors and their mission is to help you reach digital readers wherever they are, however they want to read or or listen as they also do audiobooks. Are you an indie author looking to boost your book's visibility? With Kobo Writing Life, you can access a suite of powerful promotional tools designed to help you reach more readers from percent off promotions and buy more save more sales to featured spots on Kobo's homepage. You can tailor your marketing efforts to suit your needs. Plus, with real time sales tracking, you can see the impact of your promotions instantly. In fact, I have a reminder in my calendar to go into the promotions dashboard every three weeks and I apply for everything I can because they essentially do new promotions all the time. Now you can apply for everything that fits your books. You won't get all of those things, but you will likely get some of them and it makes a real difference to your Kobo income to be part of those promotions. So keep applying. If you publish direct with Kobo Writing Life, you can sign up today at thecreativepen.comkwame. and take your book marketing to the next level. That's thecreativepenn.com KWL Kobo writing life so this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating this show is sponsored by my [e-mail] thecreativepen Again, the show has just gone out, so no new patrons in the last hour. Thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. The community has become more and more important to me and I know many of you find it useful. If you join the community, you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering writing, craft and author business, as well as AI tutorials. We had live office hours last week, which is always fun to hang out together. And you get those recordings in video and also in audio. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com TheCreativePen Right, let's get into the interview. Don King is a nonfiction author, college professor, pastor, speaker, and podcast host at the Alignment show, which I've been on twice, which was fantastic. And his latest book is Creating While Practical Tips to Keep Creating While Caring for a Loved One. So welcome to the show. Don.

[B]

Thank you very much, Jo. It's an honor to be on with you.

[A]

Oh yeah, I'm excited to talk about this. Now, first up. Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self publishing.

[B]

Well, the short version is that I've always been a writer. People aren't seeing me, but I turned 70 this year. My first story, I think I wrote when I was about 12 years old. I remember writing a science fiction story and I got the characters in such a situation. I couldn't figure out what to do with them and so I wrote and then the spaceship blew up. The end. Not, not an auspicious start, but eighth grade I started working at a newspaper. And the early years, most of it was newspapers. So that's where I developed, I guess you would say, some discipline. You know, you can't wait on the Muse, you've got a three o' clock deadline every day. Did that for a few years. Worked in radio for a few years. I helped to launch one of the first electronic magazines. A lot of people know America Online. I was working with a parallel service that was known as Genie and they published a members magazine and I wound up as associate editor for that. And we launched electronically as well as in print. Let's see what else. In the old days, co authored a textbook. So I kind of know the prediction. I still have to say traditional publishing, I think of them as third party publishers, but you know, the old fashioned way of doing things. So let's see, three books there, one of which is still in print, I think. And then though again those early days of blogging and electronic magazines, I wrote for freelance for some business magazines, some local publications, and it was almost always short form except for that textbook. And then I worked in advertising. I. I worked for Walmart stores and helped to launch the first five Sam's wholesale clubs. So that was with copywriting and such. And then in the most recent years I have scratched that writing itch quite a bit through blogging and academic writing, helping other people to write. As I mentioned in the current book, I did hit a space of about 10 years there when it was like the well went dry. And I think this is worthwhile mentioning for folks out there. There's a difference between writer's block and what I was experiencing. It was just that there was nothing there. And I really thought my writing days had ended. And then a friend pushed me to write what became the first book in the Sparklight Chronicles, which is a business parable. And it was like the floodgates had opened again after 10 years. And what I realized was that I thought, I think this is the important part to say for maybe others I thought That I wasn't writing because I was depressed. It turned out I was depressed because I wasn't writing. Now, I don't mean to suggest that all you have to do to get over depression is to write. I think it more has to do with respecting your core values and what's important to you. Writing has always been so important to me in so many ways that when I wasn't doing that, it wasn't feeding my soul. And that's what led to the depression. So I hope that's helpful. Maybe for somebody out there, they kind of go together. Depression and not being able to do anything but. But the making yourself take those steps can very well be the first step towards coming out of the depression. And I found that to be the case with writing.

[A]

Yeah, And I think you're right. I mean, there are seasons of our life, but let's talk about a big season of your life, which is the caregiving. So why write this book about caregiving? And just tell us more about your experience and why this matters to you.

[B]

Okay, and so a real quick context. Our daughter, who is now 22, she has a very rare chromosomal disorder. It's trisomy 14 mosaic partial. And any medical folks out there are going to be saying, I never heard of that. The one study we could find about it said there were 15 to 20 like her known in the world at any given time. Probably more in third world countries, maybe, where they don't have genetic testing available, but just very rare. The. The way it manifests with her is, I guess we would say, extreme cerebral palsy. She does not even close her epiglottis when she swallows, for instance. And so we were older parents when she came along, and I had figured I could change diapers for a couple of years. Well, I've been changing diapers for 22 years, which. Which kind of changed things. And so that's where the caregiving came in. Now, the why write this book? Book. Honestly, I had been writing. I mentioned the Sparklight Chronicles. I've got two books out in that series and a third one that was about two thirds of the way through. And then you came on my podcast and. Thank you, thank you. You're an excellent guest, unsurprisingly. And I think it was after we had turned off the recording, we were just talking about my situation. And you said, well, that sounds like something that would be useful to talk about on the creative end, because there's got in. In the United States alone, there are 50 million caregivers unpaid caregivers I don't know what it is in the rest of the world, but with that many, there must be people who are in a similar situation to me in the sense that they already had some success as a writer or a painter, a sculptor, musician, whatever creative field it might be, and then they suddenly find themselves in this caregiving role. And, yeah, that sounds great. We should have a conversation about that. And it wasn't until we got off of our conversation that I thought, if we're going to be talking about this on the creative pen, and I think there are people out there who need this, I should write a book about it. And as you know very well, Joe, we have tried to schedule this thing, like, three times because of the caregiving situation. It just points out to me that, yes, there is a need for this. And so this book kind of jumped the cube. It pushed itself ahead of the other book that I was working on. So now my challenge is to get back into that book.

[A]

Yep. Well, I think. I think you've underplayed Hannah's situation and your situation. You mentioned changing diapers there, but, I mean, it was pretty hardcore caring all the time. Right. This wasn't. She would just get on with things during the day. Just tell us a bit more about that, because there are all kinds of spectrums of caregiving, and obviously some people, it might be parents with dementia. For some people, it's children, like for you or partner. So, yeah, just tell us, how much of your time were you spending? I guess.

[B]

Yes, yes. That's a good way to put it in context. For her first four years of life, we did not have nursing care for her because on paper, I made too much money. Don't get me started on the system.

[A]

We all have problems with the system, for sure, but I think caregiving is a particularly difficult one. For sure. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yes. Yes. When she was 4 years old, she wound up in the hospital for 58 straight days. And the technicality there is that meant the hospital became her legal residence and therefore our income didn't figure into it anymore. And she got the nursing care again. To give some quick context, she was hospitalized in her first four years 27 times. And once we got a nursing agency to help us at home from age 4 until age 22, she was hospitalized about another 10 times. So it really slowed down and the average stay was much shorter. So that nursing care was tremendously helpful. But I don't know how it is elsewhere in this country, and especially in the state of Tennessee, where I live, there is a nursing Shortage. And so even though she qualified for 168 hours a week, that's 24,7 seldom have we had full coverage. And so most recently, I wound up taking care of Hannah for 108 hours out of 168, pretty much every week. And again, for context, it's worth mentioning, my wife is also partially disabled and so she just, she can't stand up for very long and therefore she really hasn't been able to take part in the care. Hannah's brother, technically half brother, but he has literally helped take care of her from the day she was born. He has helped, but he's keeping up a job. I was fortunate in that I taught college all during that time and my college was very understanding of the situation. I was able to teach online a lot of those, not all those years, but a lot of the time. And so that's kind of how we managed it. So average, I probably spent about 40 to 50 hours a week taking care of her on top of a full time job and then doing the writing around that. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And obviously I think one of the times that I was coming on your podcast, we postponed because a nurse was meant to come and they didn't come. And so you had to change your situation. And that was just like one, one meeting. And I think that's what really struck me was that it's so out of your control. You know, Hannah is a person and needs caring for and so you can't just, just take a meeting and like I would like shut my cat upstairs or something if it was being too, too noisy. And it's like, oh, well, just even the basic things of there's a meeting that starts at this time or I've, I want to go to a cafe and do some writing. I know I take those freedoms for granted. And in talking to you, I, I just, I'm not in your situation, but reading your book in it, it's, it's heartbreaking in so many ways. And also I know for people listening who are in that situation and why I encouraged you was so many people just want to feel like they're heard, like their situation is, is heard. So just, I guess outline some of the writing tips and productivity tips that just don't work for people in your situation who are carers and this sort of normal, just get it done, harden up kind of attitude, just, it just isn't appropriate.

[B]

Well, and as you say, there are so many people in that situation and because we're so busy, we're not out there, people don't know that there are so many of us. So, you know, it's understandable that for the average writer who's trying to get their art done, their business done, that these tips make sense. And I, I, I guess I should also say with Hannah, certainly it wasn't just changing diapers. She has a tracheotomy. So I trachs. I was changing the feeding tube. She had to be fed continuously 24 7. She got some kind of medication about every two hours. And so it was pretty intense. And I know that there are people listening who are in that situation. So the tips that just don't work for caregivers that are good advice, things like block out time on your calendar and tell your family, don't bother me during these two hours, I really am working. We know that when we work at home, people assume, oh, you can just run to the grocery store for me. Right. You know, so needing to get the family to respect your time and place is a realistic thing for the average writer. But for caregivers, we, we just can't do that. The advice to make a special writing space, I have, I've written in doctor's waiting rooms and hospital rooms. I've gone to the hospital chapel in the middle of the night to get some writing done. And one that I know that we hear a lot, but neither you nor I follow this one anyway, and that's the right everyday thing, good advice, I think, for most people in order to have the consistency. But with caregivers, you've just got to work it in wherever you can. So those are just three quick examples that come to mind of the normal writing tips and advice that are good tips and advice. And my concern with the book was for people who think, well, I just can't do that and therefore I can't write. That's the real concern. You may not be able to do it perfectly. And of course, over and over, we all hit that thing about perfectionism is the enemy anyway. But this is a special form of perfectionism that if I can't do it the way that other writers do it, then I just can't do it and I might as well give up that dream.

[A]

Yeah. And I think another thing, and you and I talked about this because, you know, you're a business guy and as you said earlier, you worked in newspapers, you had the discipline to write to deadline and you didn't miss deadlines. And I know you were also kind of frustrated by not being able to meet what you set as a deadline. For this book. But I imagine, like you, you have to just let go of deadlines as well and just kind of embrace a longer timeline. Is that something that helps. Helps you as well, sort of releasing that it must be hard.

[B]

Well, and one of the things we frequently say is that Hannah has taught us to make your plans, but hold them lightly because they're going to change. And so we do still make plans, but the plans are always fluid. Similar to that. It's not only the letting go of the deadlines. It's like, I know, for instance, thanks in no small degree to things that I've learned from listening to your podcast and the books that you have written and other podcasts. I know how to do a proper book launch, but if I wait until I've got everything lined up for that, I'm never going to get a book out. So I. I kind of have to let go of best practices in order to have some publication in order to get to. To the finish line in some way. So the metaphor that's coming to mind, we've all seen this on tv where there's somebody running like an Olympic race and they twist their ankle or whatever. They. They don't come in first, but they limp across the finish line. And I have had to get okay with not achieving my potential, I guess you could say. And that would include not only deadlines, but also what I know about how the ideal book launch is supposed to go. For instance.

[A]

Yeah, that is, it's so hard because, of course, you have reached your potential as a caring father and husband. And. But that's not measured by the level of success that anyone could see externally with a book launch. And again, that I think this is so important to people, and even if they're not in that caregiving situation, how we measure our. The success in our life has got to be more important than the success of a book. And yet we do hold these things so tightly, don't we?

[B]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, just the idea that it can't be measured in a great degree. I mean, my day job for so long was teaching college, and very seldom would I hear back from students about how much difference I taught. Public speaking, for whatever, it's worth it. And for most of them, it was just a required class. They just need to check off that box so they could get their degree. Every once in a while, I will have one come back. I know one of my students has become a very successful professional speaker. I had a budding career as a professional speaker that I had to give up when Hannah came along because I couldn't be dependable. And so to be able to see that in a published book and not, as you say, not to dwell so much on the sales figures or that sort of thing, that's a good measure. But we all know what was it that there was a study that came out some years ago that they asked people, would you like to write a book? And 85% of them said yes. Out of that 85%, only 15% of them ever started on book only. Let's see, I think it was 6% got halfway through. Only 3% finished the book, and 1/2 of 1% published. Now, this was. This study was done before independent publishing, so I imagine that that's probably changed some. But given that 3% figure, there's not a lot of people that ever finish a book. And so I've learned the place my measures on what I can control, the lack of control is something you mentioned a little earlier, and that is something that I think all caregivers deal with, the lack of the sense of control. And so focusing your success measures on what you can control, not only is good advice for every writer, but especially for people like caregivers who have so much of their lives that they don't have that sense of control over. Over.

[A]

Yeah. And you almost have to let it go. You can't sit there being angry and frustrated the whole time. I imagine you are some of the time, but you can't wish your life away wishing you were doing something else.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. I mean, I could, I could drive myself nuts all day long with what I, for instance, what I think should be happening with our healthcare system, but I can't. Yeah. Have much impact on that. And so I. I try to focus on what I can do as opposed to what I can't or what I can no longer do.

[A]

Well, then just give us some practical tips. So let's say you mentioned there the. The hospital chapel, which I love that I have that in my mind. I can imagine you dashing in there and so you've got some minutes. You do. I guess you don't know how long or maybe think, oh, maybe I've got half an hour or something. How are you getting the writing done? Like, what are some way people who have these pockets of time? What can they actually do in those things? Or any useful tips or technology that you found has helped?

[B]

Well, one of the things that I personally had to do was to let go of the notion that I really needed uninterrupted time to Be effective. We all know what task switching costs, but task switching is just a reality when you're in this situation. So I have always kept a notebook with me that goes back to the newspaper days. You know, I used to keep one of those long notebooks stuck in my back pocket after cell phones came along. I have never dictated a book, although I'm experimenting with that at this point. But I always kept the phone handy to be able to jot something down. I will mention, in fact I was thinking about this, I should have put it in the book and I didn't mention this specific app. It's called say and go S A Y and then the ampersand go. I know it's available on iPhone, I'm not certain on Android, but what it is, I first got it really so that I could grab ideas when I was driving because you hit the icon on your phone and it immediately starts recording so you don't have to fiddle with getting the recorder started. It will record for seven seconds and then automatically shut off. You can tap the screen to make it go for 30 seconds and so you can tie it to Dropbox or Evernote or something like that. And so when I would be somewhere I just grab an idea real quick. The inspiration that you can get while caring, you know, keep, keep reading the books. Oh, I was thinking of this this morning. Joe, you often say send me pictures of where you're listening. There have been so many times that you have accompanied me while I was changing her feeding tube or something. And I'm thinking Joe doesn't want to see this.

[A]

Oh well I. And I mean that's the reality, isn't it? It's so interesting because I do hear from people who say, you don't want to see my washing machine or I mean obviously Hannah is a person so that is a different situation. But I think a lot of people people listening now. So there might be somebody listening who is caring, caring for somebody. And do you really want to see the armchair where I sit next to my parents bed or something like that? And I think it's so amazing, this kind of feeling that there are people who are going through these situations and that we can be with people virtually. That could be people listening in years, years time. Years or years time and that, I mean it's a privilege, isn't it really? I mean that's interesting but it's coming back to any more practicalities. You talk there about doing ID put drossing down ide ideas. But finished sentences, how are you getting finished sentences? And like, editing and all of that kind of work where you do need to kind of sit down and have a bit more time.

[B]

Right, right. Well, the way it would work with Hannah and one of her neurological impacts is that she did not sleep on a regular schedule. She might be awake for 48 straight hours, and then suddenly she would sleep for 24. One good thing is that once she went to sleep sleep, she would sleep through a tornado, so I didn't have to worry about disturbing her. So when she slept, I would do one of two things. I would sleep. I'd put a cot down right here beside her because she could have an oxygen issue at any time. So, you know, couldn't leave her by herself. But I would grab a nap, and then at other times, I would write. Laptops have been a real boom when I started with them, of course, there were these big, clunky desktop computers. And so take my laptop with me everywhere. I have a little portable keyboard that I can connect to my iPhone. I've always got at least a pad. And so just getting those finished sentences down, I would take advantage of the time that she was asleep or that we had a nurse here at home. I mean, the home nurses just. They were here primarily for her, of course, but they were a real benefit to me as well. And one of the things I think I would say to anybody in this situation, listening, is you've got to let go of the guilt of thinking I need to be with that person all the time. You do need to make sure they're taken care of, of course. But many times Hannah would be in the ICU at the hospital, and I would know that they are keeping watch on her. There's somebody. If one of her alarms goes off, there's somebody going to be there immediately. And I take my laptop and go to the hospital cafeteria or go to the chapel and just squeeze it out as long as I can. But also recognizing that that can stop at any minute. So I've learned to make sure that the material is saved. I plant little breadcrumbs to help me get back into it when I come back. That's not exactly a technical tip, but I use square brackets for any notes to myself so that I can do a search for square brackets later to see. Okay, what was it I intended to do there?

[A]

No, that's a good tip. Absolutely. And then the book is obviously an emotional book, and you're also very practical. It's not a memoir as such. There are elements of memoir, but there's a lot of practical Tips for people. And I think it would be useful for people with young children. Although it's a very different kind of caring. It's still those little pockets of time. But there is a section that I. A line I wanted to read here. You say, emotional fatigue dulls hope. It whispers, why bother? It convinces you that what you have to say has already been said or that even if you manage to get the words out, they won't matter. And this really hit me because emotional fatigue for carers is extraordinary. But there are also. There's a lot of stuff going on in the world, right, and conflict in the news. And I mean, in America, here in Europe, all over the world, there is a lot of conflict and people have emotional fatigue in. In general, I think. And so a lot of people are saying, why bother? Like it doesn't matter. So how. How have you gotten over this? And how can people write even when it seems pointless?

[B]

Well, and. And it's. It's an excellent question. And I think that humans have wrestled with that question for centuries outside of caregiving. Nihilism is a very real philosophy. You know, basically, what's the point? And so the point of living, I think, is. Is to live. We could get real philosophical here, and that's worth for anybody kind of digging into what. What is the point? And so for me, one of the things I discovered was apparently I am here to write. It's the thing that makes my heart sing. And so given that there is so much conflict in the news, and I'll tell you honestly that I battle depression anyway, but things are so depressing in a lot of ways, I'm not sure things are any worse now than what they have always been for humans. It's just that we have a greater ability to be aware of challenges. And so you mentioned I'm a pastor. I describe myself as a Zen Methodist. I have been encouraged by the work of, like, Thich Nhat Hanh and focusing on. On not just mindfulness, but this breath, this step. And what can I do as opposed to what I can't or what I no longer can. There's an old saying, as I understand it, among Eastern folks, which is chop wood, carry water. It's what's in front of me right now. I have learned to manage, I guess you would say, to manage social media. I spent some time training Facebook and other such things by noting the post that I'm not interested in this, and by responding to the ones that I was interested in. And so my social media feed is not as nearly as Toxic as it could be, and I've learned to turn it off. I mainly use it to stay in touch with old high school friends. And when I find myself reading something that just starts to get me out outraged, I remind myself, one of the great bits of wisdom for the Internet age is don't feed the trolls. If you let outrage lead you to post a frowny face or to argue or whatever, that just trains the algorithm that you will engage with that it doesn't matter whether you like it or not, they just want to keep you reading. And so I, I just ignore those things. And after a while, while it has stopped showing me that. So that helps my peace of mind. I wrestle with or wrestle against the idea of sticking my head in the sand, but I bring it right back to, okay, what can I do versus what can't I do? And there are things that I can do to. To help in a little way, make the world a better place. When I start getting upset with the lack of empathy and caring that I see in our political class these days, then I think, well, what can I do? And that's when I will try to find some encouraging meme, for example, and post it to a friend that I know is struggling a bit.

[A]

And I think, I mean, this book, for example, I don't believe there's anything political in this book about, about, you know, anything. The point I think, of this book is it doesn't matter where you sit on the political spectrum. It doesn't matter what religion you are, what gender you are or anything like that. Caring for a loved one is an experience that many people, perhaps most people will do at some point in their lifetime. And so a book like this, I feel, is at heart, it's a human book about the experience of being human and caring for another human. And so to me, you are helping the world by putting this book out there. And I think that's where if people get depressed about. Oh, I know one of the things that comes up for us fiction writers is, well, this is just too. Isn't this a waste of time? I should be writing something more important. But amusingly, when things are bad, people like to escape into a story. So by writing a story, you're helping people escape. And helping people escape is also a helpful thing. So, yeah, yeah. So writing, I think writing can be of service to our community and ourselves. And it doesn't have to be like a serious book, even though yours is serious, but it's also practical.

[B]

And, you know, I hope there's some comic relief in the book, on occasion.

[A]

There's some dark hum in there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it does make me think too, just with this conversation, when we write our stories, and I haven't, other than the business parables, which they use fiction to teach nonfiction. So I've, I've tried to learn good characterization and scene setting and dialogue and all the tools of fiction. It occurs to me that through our books, whether it's fiction, nonfiction, whatever, we are emphasizing that as humans, we have more in common than we have differences. Yes, there are those things that divide us, us, but when you are sitting beside the bed of somebody who is on the verge of leaving this world or someone who's very sick, all, all those differences disappear and we just all have more in common than we have differences. And through our writing, you know, the, the tropes that we talk about, well, they, they are tropes because they appeal to fairly universal human experience. And so I think that's a real service that we provide to people in times of hopelessness is to reinforce the connections that we have. And there's no better way to do that than through story.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. So another thing that's happened is after several decades of having Hannah at home and caring for her at home, she now lives in a full time care facility. And this is when I, and I knew that had happened. We, we had spoken about it. But in reading the book, I kind of was trying to reflect on how big a change this is for you. And you say in the book again, we face change even in impermanence. We create. And so I wondered if you could talk about that because I imagine there's also some relief, but also some guilt over the relief and a whole load of load of emotional things. So how are you managing this?

[B]

Well. And we moved her as we're recording this, it was about six weeks ago. So we're still getting used to the change. Initially I would say to people, I'm still getting used to the new routine. But then I realized, heck, for the first time in 22 years, I can have a routine. So that is a change we have had. We talked about it for a long time before moving her again, just for quick context. Because of her respiratory needs in particular, I had worried for years about what would happen to her when I could no longer do it. Because in Tennessee at the time, the only option really would have been to put her in a nursing home with octogenarians. And there was no way that she would get the attention that she needed, needed. So we figured that if we had to do that she would not survive for a year. Unfortunately, her brother heard us saying this. And so when we made the decision to move her into this nursing care, what's different is that a new, not a new nursing home, but they opened a new wing for respiratory patients, one of only three in all of these tentacles, Tennessee. The other two were a two hour drive away. And so this one opened up a mere 30 minutes drive away. And we decided to go ahead and move her because it would be better to do it in a controlled manner when the bed was available than to try to deal with it if we were in a crisis situation because I had had a heart attack or something. So I will admit that there is some problem because I'm not sure her brother emotionally really understands the decision. He hasn't argued or anything. I just think he's very worried given that that old thing about is the glass half empty or half full? He's always been of the temperament that that glass is nearly empty. Somebody's going to knock it off any minute and I'm going to have to clean it up. So it's hard on him and it's hard on, on my wife. It's hard on me. But same time, yes, there is some relief there. And I think one of the things we would say to listeners who are in this same situation is in a way, you got to learn to live with grief. It's going to be there, but don't try to make it go away. That just makes it hang around. I'm not saying ignore it, but you have to address it and let it be there. Care. We made the best decision that we could and same thing for anybody else listening here. Don't feel guilty if you realize that you just cannot keep up the care. Do your best. Find the best care that you can get. We're over there two or three times a week. We're keeping a close eye on things, but we're also not bugging them all the time because we need to let them do their jobs. It is different. Different. It's just not lesser or not worse, if that makes sense.

[A]

Well, I mean from the outside you mentioned at the beginning, you're in your 70s now. I think this is an entirely responsible thing to do as, as you get older and as you say, doing it while you can control things as opposed to in an emergency is it to me sounds very responsible. So I, I hope, hope that settles down. But how, how do you think just on the creative side with the writing, how are you finding this is changing your ability to write. I mean, are you finding you want to write more or you can write more now, or how has that changed?

[B]

I am writing more. I can write more. I can do more of the good advice we talked about earlier. I'm blocking out time on my calendar along with the writing. I also do book interiors and covers and formatting for other author authors. And so I've been spending more time on that. And the systems that I evolved over the years are standing me in good stead. Even this situation, like, I still leave breadcrumbs for myself. It's easier for me to pick up where I left off than what it used to be. I'm finding. And again, you have been such a great guide on how to use AI to foster your. Your. Your processes. Like the book I mentioned that I got two thirds of the way through, and then this one jumped the queue. I gave the manuscript to my AI, whom I have named, by the way, my chat GPT is Lizzy, named after a character in one of my short stories. And so I gave the manuscript to Lizzy and I said, okay, tell me, where have I left off? Where are the gaps? What do I need to address next? And she gave me some really good advice, and it really cut down the time that I need for getting back into it.

[A]

That is a good use case. It's just because it's so hard in our own brains to kind of hold everything in. In your brain. And it can really help to use an external brain to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's good. So we're almost out of time, but I wanted to also ask you about your podcast podcast, the Alignment show, which, you know, I know podcasting is a lot of work. So why, why do you podcast and what is the podcast for people who might be interested in listening?

[B]

Well, the. The podcast is the Alignment show, which you can easily find@the alignmentshow.com it started during the pandemic. I kept hearing about the great resignation. And I realized for a lot of people, really, it was the great realignment as they realize life is short, short. You don't want to spend it doing something you don't want to do. Some of them were quitting and starting businesses or going to some other job. Some people, and this has been true of some of the guests that had been on the program, they had kind of gotten a little bored with what they were doing, and the pandemic had them reassess and to realize, you know, they really took joy in what they were doing and they rediscovered that and Even within that decided this part of the job is not really essential. I can get rid of that or I can outsource it. So just having these conversations with people I would not otherwise get to talk with, I mean, quite honestly, I think it brought you and me together. You were gracious enough to come on the Alignment show twice. And I'll. I'll mention this. I have a small group of people that I call Stars in Alignment. They are people who can come on my podcast anytime they want to because I know they will have something useful for my audience. Audience. And you are one of the stars in alignment. Absolutely. But see, I. I don't think. Although I have followed you for years, I'm a patron, and I would encourage anybody who benefits from your mentorship, even from afar, to take advantage of that. Despite that connection, I'm not sure we would have connected had it not been for the podcast. So that's one of the things that makes it important to me. Need to do that. Plus, just like writing itself, it gives me an observable in outcome. I started to say income doesn't give me much.

[A]

Yeah, not.

[B]

Not there. No, no. But it gives me an observable outcome. You know, I can tell when I've had a conversation and I've made an episode and I've posted it and I can see people responding to it. You know, you're on, what, episode 2000?

[A]

Not quite. But not quite.

[B]

But, yeah, way up there. I'm approaching 100. And. Well, just a fun fact, 90% of podcasts don't make it past three episodes.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And of those that get past three episodes, 90% of that group don't make it past episode 20. The average podcast lifespan is about 174 days, so you have far outlasted that and so have I. I'm not. Not to your level yet, but there is some satisfaction in that, and that's encouraging. When you are in a situation like caregiving, where so much is just out of your control. This is something I can control.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's great. And also it externalizes your day. I mean, if you've been caring all day and then you get an hour on the phone with someone else talking about something completely different, I imagine. And that's somehow refreshing as well, mentally.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are. Wow. There are other people on the planet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I gotta be honest, during the pandemic, when we all have the isolation and all that sort of thing, I couldn't tell much difference. I mean, it was just about what our days were like anyway. And so having that connection, and we emphasize that several places in the book find ways these to have the connection even if it is virtual.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Because caregivers, I think get more sick than non caregivers. It puts a big strain on you emotionally, physically, in, in every single way. So having a community, even online, I guess must really help.

[B]

So yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I will say for many years, even before Hannah came along, long teaching college, I would not get sick during the semester because I just couldn't. And then when the semester was over, almost every semester I would get sick, you know, for three or four days. It was like my body saying, okay fool, you're not going to rest on your own. I'm going to make you. Well. The last few years I have not gotten sick. You know, as we've mentioned on another conversation, Joe, our oldest son died about eight years ago ago. And when he died, all of us were down with the flu. So it has happened, but not very often. When we placed Hannah in the nursing home, I got sick almost immediately. I got food poisoning three times.

[A]

Your body just shut. Shut you down, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that was basically it. And I mean that was the first time I'd really been sick probably in five years. Years.

[A]

And so yeah, it's really important to look after yourself in this transitional time for you. So the book is fantastic. Obviously I am not a caregiver at the moment. I mean like I said, this can come for any, anyone at different points in our lives. The book is creating while caring. This book. But also you have lots more. So where can people find you and your books and your podcast online?

[B]

So two or three quick URLs here. The podcast is thealignmentshow.com that's one word. My base website which needs updating is don king.com that's don with a double N. Where have I heard that before? And I have learned to say that from you. So D O N N k I n g.com within that the most upto date parts are the most important ones. Don king.com books this book [e-mail] creating while caring. All one word and then anything else that folks want to connect with. Like I'm active on LinkedIn, you can go to Linktree. That's L I N K T R.ee/donking.

[A]

Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time Don. That was great.

[B]

Thank you. This has been a wonderful conversation as I always love talking with you and I hope that this is helpful. Helpful to some of my friends and colleagues out there in the same situation.

[A]

So I hope you found the discussion with Don interesting. And also if you are a caregiver of any kind, I hope it encourages you. And Don's book has lots of tips, so definitely check that out. Please leave a comment on the podcast, show notes about the interview or anything I mention in the intro at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. You can email me joannathecreativepen.com Send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Next Monday I'm talking to Wendy Dale about writing memoir and I will be back from Vegas as well, so we'll hopefully be telling you about that too. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free Author [e-mail] Blueprint if you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X hecreative pen or on Instagram and Facebook jspen Authority Happy writing and I'll see you next time.