Intuition, Journaling, And Overcoming Fear. The Creative Cure With Jacob Nordby

Summary

The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers
Episode Title: Intuition, Journaling, And Overcoming Fear. The Creative Cure With Jacob Nordby
Host: Joanna Penn
Release Date: March 10, 2025

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Introduction

In episode #798 of The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers, host Joanna Penn engages in a profound conversation with Jacob Nordby, an entrepreneur and author renowned for his work on creativity and personal transformation. The episode delves deep into the realms of intuition, journaling, overcoming fear, and maintaining creativity amidst the ever-changing landscape of modern life.

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Guest Background: Jacob Nordby

Jacob Nordby begins by sharing his personal journey into the world of creativity and writing. From a young age, Jacob was enamored with books, declaring his aspiration to be a writer at just ten years old. However, like many, he ventured into the entrepreneurial world, seeking the American dream. It wasn't until his mid-thirties, after experiencing profound personal upheavals and relocating to Austin, Texas, that Jacob reconnected with his passion for writing. Influenced by Julia Cameron's The Artist's Way, Jacob reignited his creative spark, leading to the creation of his acclaimed book, The Creative Cure.

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Understanding Creativity and Its Blocks

The Concept of the "Creative Cure"

Jacob introduces the concept of the "Creative Cure," emphasizing that creativity is an inherent human trait essential for personal fulfillment and expression. Contrary to the notion that creativity can be "cured" from a state of block, Jacob argues that the essence of our creative spirit remains unbroken. Instead, societal pressures and the fast-paced modern world create a disconnect between our authentic selves and our creative expressions.

"The cure isn't curing the essence of who we are as humans or creatives. It is curing that connection."
— Jacob Nordby [21:42]

Indicators of Creative Block

Jacob discusses how constant change and overwhelming information can lead to feelings of being harried and out of sync, which inevitably reflect in our creative outputs. Recognizing these blocks is the first step toward addressing them.

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Practical Strategies to Foster Creativity

1. Establishing Rituals

Jacob emphasizes the importance of rituals in shifting one's state of awareness to foster creativity. Whether it's the simple act of making coffee with intention or lighting a candle before writing, these rituals help create a mental space conducive to creative thinking.

"The real keys here are the attention and intention that I bring."
— Jacob Nordby [24:33]

2. Journaling Practices

Journaling serves as a powerful tool for emotional and creative expression. Jacob introduces a structured approach with three pivotal questions:

1. How do I feel right now?
2. What do I need right now?
3. What would I love to create right now?

This method helps individuals acknowledge their emotions, prioritize their needs, and channel their creative energies effectively.

"By asking these questions and really grounding them, really coming into the moment, how do I feel right now? Oh, I feel grouchy and tired. I feel uninspired or I feel great."
— Jacob Nordby [26:42]

3. Grounding Through Physical Activity

Physical activities like walking, lifting, or simple breathing exercises anchor individuals to the present moment, reducing anxiety and fostering a clearer mindset for creativity.

"Walking can often help us process deeply and open things up. I can't tell you the number of times I've taken a long walk and come back with the solution to some challenge I was having in my writing."
— Jacob Nordby [28:43]

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Overcoming Fear and Trusting Intuition

The Role of Fear in Creativity

Fear, especially fear of failure, is a primal emotion that can severely hinder creative expression. Jacob discusses how societal conditioning often predisposes individuals to focus on negative outcomes, stifling their creative potential.

"Fear holds people back always. I don't know if there's one other factor that holds us back more than simple fear."
— Jacob Nordby [40:08]

Embracing Intuition

Intuition is portrayed not as a mystical concept but as a grounded, everyday sense that guides creative decisions. Jacob encourages writers to trust their gut feelings, whether it's choosing a writing path or making personal life decisions.

"Our tunnel vision begins to fade and we become aware of the answers and the ideas that are all around us."
— Jacob Nordby [35:36]

Learning from Mistakes

Jacob shares his own experiences with failure, highlighting how setbacks can lead to significant personal and professional growth. From overstocking print books that sat unsold to financial struggles during the meltdown, each mistake propelled Jacob toward discovering his true creative path.

"That mistake in print publishing ... led me into so much ... I started the Creative Penn podcast to learn about book marketing."
— Jacob Nordby [43:57]

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Maintaining Creativity and Avoiding Stagnation

Continuous Growth and Adaptation

Joanna and Jacob discuss the importance of not becoming stagnant in one's creative journey. Embracing change, taking risks, and continuously exploring new avenues are essential for sustained creativity.

"How do we keep pivoting, changing, moving forwards when we have a career that we love, when we do something we love but we know we can't get stagnant?"
— Joanna Penn [53:29]

Diversifying Creative Output

Jacob emphasizes the value of diversifying one's creative endeavors to prevent routine and foster innovation. Whether it's writing screenplays, participating in competitions, or engaging in different forms of creative expression, variety keeps the creative spirit alive.

"Taking risks where we both started, we took risks to unwind one career and start another."
— Jacob Nordby [55:51]

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Listener Engagement and Community Feedback

Throughout the episode, listener feedback highlights the impact of Joanna's podcast on their creative journeys. Comments range from gratitude for insightful conversations to anecdotes about personal growth inspired by previous episodes. This interactive segment underscores the podcast's role in fostering a supportive creative community.

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Conclusion

Joanna Penn wraps up the episode by reiterating the importance of spring cleaning not just in a physical sense but also in one's creative and professional life. She encourages listeners to engage with the podcast community, share their experiences, and continue nurturing their creative passions.

"Spring means hope. It means change. It means growth. ... Let's make the most of it."
— Joanna Penn

Upcoming episodes promise further exploration into using writing as a tool for processing grief and navigating change, ensuring that listeners continue to find valuable insights and inspiration.

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Resources and Further Listening

• Jacob Nordby's Website: jacobnordby.com
• Death Valley Book Trailer: Available on Joanna’s YouTube channel, JF PEN Author
• Footprints Podcast: Episode 38, featuring Joanna’s interview
• Patreon Community: patreon.com/TheCreativePen

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This episode of The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers offers invaluable insights into the intricate dance between creativity, intuition, and fear. Jacob Nordby's experiences and strategies provide a roadmap for writers seeking to deepen their creative practices and overcome the challenges that impede their artistic expression.

Transcript

[Joanna Penn]

Welcome to the Creative Penn Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show hello creatives, I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 798 of the podcast and it is Wednesday 5th March 2025 as I record this early as we are off to ICELAND for my 50th birthday. In today's show I'm talking about creativity with Jacob Nordby, who was very good at throwing questions back to me actually. So we had quite the revealing discussion that went in directions neither of us expected, which is always refreshing. But we talk about how you can release more creativity into your writing and your life practices to foster creativity in a time of change and overwhelm and much more, including leaning into your intuition, dealing with fear, and lots more. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing Things. Well, there's not much to report because I'm a bit early on this, so I thought I'd share something I've been thinking about. Spring has definitely sprung here in Bath. The crocuses and the daffodil fields are out and the sun is warm, although it's still pretty chilly in the shade and in the evening. But people have been walking around town and smiling and everyone's just so happy. The winter feels like it's over and I am having a hankering for spring cleaning, decluttering and generally emerging from the hibernation of winter. One of the blessings of seasonal living is leaning into these changes and so it got me thinking about what spring cleaning means to us as authors. Here are a few things we can do to spring clean first of all, clean out your old backlist and refresh your sales descriptions, keywords and even your covers if they are dated. So I use Claude and ChatGPT to rewrite my sales descriptions or write them from scratch. For pretty much the last two years I've been using Claude and they are both extremely good at copywriting. You can just paste in your old sales description and ask it to make it more effective to sell more books or make it more like a best selling thriller sales description or whatever it is. Or if you're happy with the terms of service as I am, you can upload the entire book and ask it to write a sales description from the actual book. It can also give you keywords and categories and comp titles and all the rest. The next thing Take a fresh look at your author website and be brutally honest with yourself. Is it dated? Is it easy for people to buy your books? What does it look like on a mobile phone compared to like a desktop computer? Can you easily find your author bio? Is it easy to figure out how to contact you or click through to your social media? If you use it, and if you do have content like blog posts or images, do you need to archive any of the old stuff or redirect it to new content? I use WordPress and I make heavy use of the redirection function to make sure people can find my latest versions of things. Then look at streamlining your tools and subscriptions. So subscriptions are a necessary part of online life these days, but we need to revisit them to make sure we're still using them. And sometimes you're like, oh, I really don't need that anymore. You may also be able to change billing plans on some of them to reduce costs or delete them altogether. It is a good chance to revisit whether you're still using tools and what use case you have for them. And I often say this but I recommend signing up monthly on anything thing you're not 100% certain that you're going to use. So for example prowritingaid I do an annual billing on because I use I know I'm going to keep using that for every tool but for like these AI models for example, I only do monthly I'm looking@ buffer.com right now. I've been using it to schedule social media for years now, but I really only use it for campaigns. As I mentioned last episode, I don't really use social media all the time, but I have another Kickstarter coming up so I will schedule content then. But I like having these on monthly because then the notifications come up every month and I'm like do I really still need that? Or I go up and down on some of them. So I I used Runway ML to do my book trailer for Death Valley and I went I had to go up a level for a month to get more credits to do the videos and then I just immediately put it down again to the lower level. So this is, this is the thing. It's a really good idea to revisit your tools and subscriptions. Also, if you have automatic ads running, if you haven't set an end date on your ads, are they still effective? So Check Facebook, Amazon, BookBub I know plenty of authors who have been like, oh my goodness, I didn't even realize that ad was running and the cost was just going out. And you just need to check if these things are effective. Do you need to refresh the creative or do you need to turn them off altogether? If you have an email list, maybe it's time to clean your email list, which means purge it of the people who haven't opened anything a year or so and your email provider will have help on how to clean your list. And it is a good discipline to have. You don't want to be paying to have people on your list who don't click your links or open your emails. Then spring clean your working space or your office. And that might actually mean making a space if you don't have one, or if you have a home office like me, then going through all the piles of paper which I have, and also reassessing the book collection. So I buy a lot of books for research and a lot of them are research for books. I'm not writing at the moment and I can barely walk in my office right now. I think part of it is because of my birthday coming up. I've literally been letting myself buy all the books and I have so many, both my own and others, for research, and I need to go through them and decide whether I'm actioning them soon. So will I be using this to write something in the next, I don't know, say three months? And if not, I can put them on the shelves downstairs. Brain food for later. That's what I call it. And then finally, perhaps it's time to revamp and spring clean your attitude to being an author. Spring means hope. It means change. It means growth. Do those words resonate for you and your goals as an author right now? Hope, change, Growth. How can you bring more of this in? Maybe this will be personal growth or a deepening of your craft, or perhaps growth in revenue or growth in your audience. Or maybe it's just an attitude. Reset. Winter is over. Spring is here. Let's make the most of it. So let me know what you think. I would love to know your answers to these questions. How are you spring cleaning as an author? You can always leave a comment on the show notes and you can email me joannathecreativepenn.com so in personal news, I got the final proofread and the comments back from Death Valley on the beta reading, so that is finished. I'm just getting the print books formatted and working with Jane, my designer to get the books done so I can finish the prep on the Kickstarter and I feel much more in control of everything now. So I'm more certain of the launch date. I had pushed it out and at the moment I am thinking Monday 31st March and you can pre [e-mail] Death Valley there will be all the books in all the formats including digital, including audio. I will be narrating the audio myself. Human Me I'm also doing a brand new how to write Thrillers webinar. This is the most thriller thrillery thriller I have ever written. There is no supernatural in it. It is pretty much thrillery thriller. So I'm excited to share all my tips. I won't be selling the webinar anywhere else. So even if you don't want the book Death Valley you can come and get the webinar. You can just get the ebook which will just it won't be very expensive and then you can add on the webinar or you can obviously get the special signed hardback with photos and ribbons and all the extras. So yes, I'll be doing that webinar. There'll also be a small number of consulting sessions available selling on the Kickstarter. They sell out really fast so you want to pre register so you get notified of launch. Jfpenn.com Death Valley I'm also working on the screenplay which is really fun as I can see it all play out in my mind. And it's a continuous sequence basically from the moment it opens to the moment it ends, it's a continuous sequence. So it's really great to see it play out in my mind. It's got some of the same vibes as the White Lotus, if you like the White Lotus TV show. It's kind of a luxury hotel and the characters are the guests and the staff. And then it spirals into death and destruction. But also action adventure elements. And of course it's a JF Pen book. So there is a hidden crypt. Of course there is. And a storm. The storm is actually a really big part. Storm arrives in Death Valley luxury eco lodge basically. I also made the book trailer this week with midjourney and Runway ML. It is on my YouTube channel at JFPEN author and I'll link to that in the show notes. So yes, I do have a YouTube channel for JF Pen. Author. Author. I'm starting to really expand that now as this goes out. I am in Iceland so I'll tell you about that next week. Part of it is book research, so that will be fun. Filling the creative well indeed. And once I'm back, I'm going to start the narration of the audiobook of Death Valley as Human Me and finish that screenplay. Also, I was interviewed for a local podcast at the library event I did a few weeks back. As in, someone came up to me with a microphone and I had to sort of answer on the fly, which was not something I do very often. So that was quite interesting. You can have a listen. It's lots of different authors talking. Have a listen on the Footprints podcast, episode 38, Bath in literature with Pommy Harmer. So that is Footprints podcast. I'll put a link in the show notes so thanks for all your emails and comments and photos this week. Tyreen said. I loved this week's episode with Luke and your fun conversation with him about writing action adventure. I was out for a walk in my neighbourhood, which is a mix of rural fields and suburban housing areas. Thought you might like a picture of an old house with new windows used as a storage barn and currently the only animals in residence are the deer. I feel. I feel there's a cool story to write about that house. A story seed for another day. Absolutely. And I love this from Tyreen because the idea of story seeds I absolutely use. So I go and like, so I'll be in Iceland and I will be collecting story seeds. It will be something I see on the side of a house like this, or it might be a place I visit or a particular land landscape or a person I meet. Or all of these can be story seeds. Also on YouTube, TalkeyThePunk says. Thank you. Great podcast. It sounds like Luke Richardson could be the new Willard Price, whose action adventure books I read as a child but with a modern spin. And I love this because I used to read Willard Price and Willard Price, Wilbur Smith, obviously, some of those early books, Hardy Boys, I used to read all of those. And Luke and I share a lot in common between his Eden Black series and my Arcane series. And Kirsten said, I listened to your interview with Marissa Meyer and stopped in my tracks to order the paperback. Really enjoying it. It's so easy to lose track of yourself and why you started writing in the first place when your only waking thought becomes I have to do this and I must do that. I don't think we start out thinking, yeah, I want to be my own slave driver and work myself so hard I lose the love of writing. So the happy writer has given me some new ideas, sparking happiness. And Kirsten sent a picture in the Rengen park in Louvorden and there's a statue of a dog in the background, also in his happy place. Thank you for that and I'm so glad. Yes, we always need to revisit why am I doing this? And question why am I doing this? And like those things I said about spring cleaning, all those things I mentioned, you don't have to do any of that. Just a suggestion. So if it doesn't make you happy to do these things, then do something else. And then Naomi responded to my question about how social media is working. She says, I've been traditionally published for 21 years, which is amazing. Naomi, congratulations. I hung onto my Facebook author page when many have abandoned the platform and I find it the best place for reader engagement as well as making contacts for research. I write mysteries and nonfiction and the page draws readers from both genres. I've been posting more reels and in general my reels generate a healthy number of views for an author like me. I've decided to drastically cut posts on Instagram and prioritize my Facebook page. I removed TikTok off my phone and I can't get it back right now, which is probably a good thing. The page the Facebook page definitely proves I'm human and when I have a new book out I'll spend a few dollars, not over $50 to make sure the news reaches more eyeballs. My current publisher also spends money to amplify new releases. I now only post about two or three times a week, many times to promote in person book events in the Los Angeles area. Very doable. I love that and great to hear from Naomi there 21 years and has obviously changed things up over time and now sort of prioritizing one thing and I I do think that if you have been around a while, like Naomi, like me are the age group of our readers Often we do attract readers of a similar age. I know there's a bigger wider age group, but people who are Gen X like me, like Naomi, I think we use Facebook still and there's still a lot of billions of people in fact still on Facebook. Okay, please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. Message me on x hecreative pen or email me send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation so this episode is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life. Kobo's free, fast and easy self publishing platform favoured by independent authors all over the world. KWL was built by Authors for Authors and their mission is to help you reach digital readers wherever they are, however they want to read or listen. Are you an indie author looking to reach readers around the world with Kobo Writing Life? Global distribution is at your fingertips. The platform allows you to publish ebooks and make them available in over 190 countries. And just personally, I'll say I have sold books on Kobo in 180 countries, which is pretty amazing. Whether your readers are in North America, Europe, Asia or anywhere else, Kobo Writing Life ensures your stories are accessible to a truly global audience. Plus, with their easy to use dashboard, you can track your international sales and see where your books are making an impact. Expand your reach and grow your readership with Kobo Writing Life today by visiting thecreativepen.com kWL that's thecreativepen.com kWl. You can also find the Kobo Writing Life podcast wherever you're listening to this, and it's full of interviews with authors and tips on publishing. So this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] TheCruise Creative Pen thanks to the four new patrons who've joined this week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. You are amazing. If you join the community, you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering topics on writing, craft and author business, as well as tutorials and demos on AI tools. And my patron only Q and A solo episodes which I did last week, and my live office hours which the next one and that's on video and that's coming in a few weeks at the end of March. This week on the Community I went through how I made the book trailer for Death Valley. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. You get access to everything, all the backlist content, Q&As, office hours and more. And I should just say here, since we were talking about spring cleaning, I always say the new patrons who've joined, I don't tell you the patrons who have left. And that is the truth. With this you don't have to join forever. You could just come along, join for a month, go through everything, and then leave again. So that is absolutely fine. Obviously I'd love you to stick around because you get enough value from it to want to Stick around. But you can come in for just a few dollars. You can have a look, you can give it a try and you can cancel at any time. So I just wanted to mention that since we're talking about spring cleaning. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com the Creative Pen. Right, let's get into the interview.

[Jacob Nordby]

Jacob Nordby is an entrepreneur and author of several books, including the Creative how finding and Freeing your Inner Artist can heal your life. So welcome to the show.

[Joanna Penn]

Jacob.

[Jacob Nordby]

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here. Jo.

Oh, I'm excited to talk to you. So first up, tell us a bit more about you and how you got into creativity and writing.

Well, I was born, we won't start there, but when I was 10 years old, I came out into the living room and I'd been reading a book, which I did mostly where we didn't watch television or see movies or anything like that. And so books were my very best friends. And I came out of the living room and told my parents that I want to be a writer. And of course, I had told them before I wanted to be a spy or, or firefighter or something. This was the first, first thing that really hit for me and I could really feel it. And then fast forward into adulthood and I promptly forgot that and plunged into starting businesses and really trying to secure my place in the American dream. And woke up around age 35 realizing that this was all feeling very hollow. And after a series of events that turned my world upside down, I moved to Austin, Texas. And it was there, working two or three part time jobs and trying to figure out what was next that I remembered that I really wanted to be a writer. And so I began to write. Yeah, about 15 years ago. You know, one of the things that helped me get started was the Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. Are you familiar with that work?

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. Okay. Well, I was sitting in this warehouse and was writing away and began to go back into this book that my father had given me, the Artist's Way. And it really broke me open. And I longed at some point to be able to share the process of not just writing, but of discovering who we really are and expressing that. And fast forward about five or six more years from there. And I had the great pleasure of meeting Julia and she's become a dear friend. And so that's one aspect of the Work I do is I work with her and share these things, but also in my own world, I hold workshops and do one on one work with people, guidance work and both writers and non writers. And it's just something I love because I see creativity as our vital spark, as our life force energy. And it's meant to flow in every part of our lives. And often when people will show up, you know, saying I'm creatively blocked, we will pull that thread a bit and discover it's not just creatively blocked. I'm doing my air quotes, fingers right now. It's feeling blocked in life. And so often as we work through what are some channels in life that need to be opened up, they discover maybe it was I need to clean my garage. And they go clean the garage and come back in two weeks and say, oh my God, I had no idea how much I was boxing up my emotions, my sense of possibility and everything. I found old boxes from my divorce or from my mother died or whatever I went through there. And all of a sudden I feel emotionally open and able to express again. And so I love working with people in so many ways and helping them realize that expression is meant to be as natural as breathing for the creative spirit.

Well, let's get into the book then, because it's called the Creative Cure. And I, I find this an interesting title because the word cure implies a sickness that, that where we start from. So I guess you mentioned feeling blocked there, but what are some of the things, life or our writing that indicate we might need such a cure?

You know, it's interesting, I wrote a previous book called Blessed are the Weird and that was this very direct sort of manifesto for creatives. And I was surprised how many people showed up and raised their hands and said, I'm one of this group, whatever this group is. But there were a lot of other people, Joe, who would tell me, I don't, I'm not that creative. In fact, I don't know if I have a creative bone in my body and my heart just said we need to change this idea. What the idea of creativity has become in a lot of cases, I feel like it's been affected by the industrial era of production and distribution, which are wonderful things. And a lot of artists find themselves stuck because they can't see how what they have to create and share will ever become widely viable in that way, you know, so cure, here's what I feel very deeply about our creative spirit is that it can't be broken or damaged, but the process of becoming adults in the modern world often fills the connection between who we are out there and our true inner creative self with static. So for me, the cure isn't curing the essence of who we are as humans or creatives. It is curing that connection. And I feel like we are all susceptible to it in some way. Art attention spans are fractured. We have a rate of change that is, I feel, really unsustainable for the human psyche to absorb. In our lifetimes in this era, we've absorbed more change than previous generations might in two or three generations. And so I feel like a lot of us can feel harried and frantic and just out of sorts and that will become evident in our creative work. And so for me, it's not so much curing the true person, it's looking at what practices can I bring in that will strengthen and revitalize that connection?

Yeah, I get you on the pace of change. On the day we're recording this, just yesterday, Microsoft announced this new quantum state of matter. And I was like, seriously, haven't we got enough going on? Don't we need. Do we need something else again? And it does definitely feel like that. And so you mentioned there's some that can help us maybe break through that static to fix that connection. I guess with our creativity of if we're feeling like we've lost it or if it's just as you. I like the word static, actually. I think sometimes it really does feel like that. Just a bit. A bit disconnected. So what are some of the practices you recommend?

One thing that I love to recommend as a starting point is a ritual. And a ritual can sound kind of mystical or complicated to me. It's really a state of awareness. So let's just say we make our cup of coffee in the morning and, and run out the door and gulp it as we drive. That's one way. Another way would be to slow down and say, I am creating this cup of coffee and bring all of our attention and intention into the process of it, which changes our experience of it. And I love to invite people who are sitting down to write to create some version of a ritual so they realize they are entering a different state of awareness. Because. Because our awareness is so yanked in different directions, we jump on social media, we see distressing things, we see all these things coming around and we often don't realize that we take that fractured or static filled sort of state of being or awareness into what we're doing, which means that we're not really allowing the pure stuff to come through as easily, you know, it can feel harder. And so I love inviting, creating these personal rituals, Whether it's as simple as lighting a candle, it can be almost anything. The real keys here are the attention and intention that I bring. And it's an interesting shift, like, to invite ourselves in there and notice that, oh, in this space, I feel quite different. I feel I have access to different ideas, a different way of expressing. You know, I'll just use this morning as an example. I woke up and it's really cold here in northern usa, and it's gray outside. And I wasn't feeling particularly inspired, so I went to my favorite little coffee shop with my journal. And this will be another practice I'll talk about in a moment, but asked myself to enter a different state of awareness. And so for me, that's one item is creating these small rituals that help us intentionally shift into a different state of mind.

Well, since you mentioned journals, maybe talk more about that.

Well, you're aware of the artist's way and morning pages. And that's where I started with that really in earnest. I also realized that many people don't find a whole lot of value in just long form, sort of dumping it out on paper. I do. I'm a writer, you know, that's one of my favorite ways of expressing and exploring. So over time, I developed a set of three questions, and I've shared this. When I first created this years ago, Joe, I put it out and was pretty sure it was way too basic and didn't have a lot of value. And then I had people get a hold of me. Therapists were saying, oh, my God. My clients are journaling for the first time using this practice. So the three questions are. The first one is, how do I feel right now? And I'll come back to that. The second one is, what do I need right now? And the third one is, what would I love to create right now? If I'm going through a lot of emotional turbulence or something, I'll often switch that question up a bit and say, how would I love to feel right now? But going back to that first question and the second, early in life, many of us internalize the messages that our needs don't matter and our feelings don't matter. In fact, we can't. How many of us have been told, you can't trust your feelings? You know? And so by asking these questions and really grounding them, really coming into the moment, how do I feel right now? Oh, I feel grouchy and tired. I feel uninspired or I feel great. Whatever it might be, the fact is we send a signal to our psyche by asking that question and answering it that says, I matter, my feelings matter. And then we move on to the what do I need right now? Again, often it's prosaic for me. Oh, I'm thirsty. I need to get a drink of water. Oh, I'm tired. I should take a small nap. Or it might be something larger or more existential. But in any case, again, it sends that message to the inner self saying, I matter and there's something wonderfully calming about that is what I've discovered.

Joe, I wonder if that's also grounding in the physical body. Because I feel like, I mean, I walk a lot, so if I need to ground myself, I often will go for a walk out in nature. And that really helps. Or I do lifting, lifting heavy objects, powerlifting. And again, anything that grounds me in my physical body actually takes me away from the screen. And most of what stresses us is beyond the screen and isn't happening right now, I guess. So do you have those practices around the physical body?

Oh, yes. I love that you mentioned walking. That's one of my favorite practices. I also teach and use as often as I can just really simple breathing techniques like box breathing. And often, to your point, I find that we are often quite disassociated from our bodies and we spend so much time up in our heads and in concepts versus what's in reality. So, yes, I. I feel like these things can be incredibly simple. I do love going to the gym and lifting heavy things as well. But the walk thing, you know, if I can just put my phone in my back pocket or leave at home, which frankly, I don't really do very often, but go out and take a walk, things change. And there's this bilateral stimulation that's happening when we're walking. You know, it's almost like an EMDR effect, if you want to put it that way. But I've found that walking can often help us process deeply and open things up. I can't tell you the number of times I've taken a long walk and come back with the solution to some challenge I was having in my writing work that day. I would love to hear if you've had those experiences too.

Oh, absolutely. It's one of my go to. I walk every day. You know, I. I live in Bath in the. In the uk. It's a very walkable city and I live near a canal. So, yeah, I walk an awful lot and I've done Pilgrimages and all of this. So walking for me is like a core thing for mental health and physical health and, and creativity, as you say. Like sometimes you just go for a walk and you. And I mean, I take my phone too for writing all the notes down that come up as I walk. So, yeah, I think that's important. I do want to come back on the journaling because, and this is very interesting you mentioned earlier about this industrial era production and distribution. And keep in mind that I'm a professional author. I write books for a living, and many of the listeners, we write books. So if we have, let's say we have half an hour to write, the feeling is I must be writing words for my book, whatever that book is. And there's always another book. Right? So how, how do you suggest people balance this need to write words for the next book versus journaling for the need for just expressing yourself?

Well, I love that I want to be very clear that I'm not throwing rocks at the industrial era. We've. Civilization has really benefited from so many things that have happened there. I think that sometimes, especially people who are just getting started as writers there can feel all this pressure. You know, Joe, you've written many, many books and bestsellers and just had that experience. So that's such a different thing than most people have who are just getting started. But I think there can be this intense focus on how do I write a bestseller, you know, and that can often become its own block. But back to journaling piece. I think that a lot of times people conflate those. It's like, well, if I'm going to write, then I need to write on my project. And journaling feels like writing. I really love to think of journaling more like emotional, mental, spiritual yoga. So it's a practice, but it's not the same as what we're doing when we sit down to write. In fact, I would challenge anyone who, you know, is feeling a little creatively blocked, but also doesn't feel like journaling would have much value. I would suggest trying it for a week, spend 10 minutes in. Just 10 minutes, 10 minutes a day writing out. You know, using my three questions is fine or anything else, but just writing out, this is what's up for me. What is coming up for me. Okay, this is what's up. This is what's really bothering me. And so often I find when I sit down to do that, as I pull what looks like a very small dangling thread, it leads to much deeper things that are going on in my life. And the act of acknowledging those things does something freeing. It opens up the channel. So when I sit down to write, I'm no longer also trying to multitask by having three different conversations with people I'm having difficulty with in my head or sorting out my taxes in my head or whatever. There's something really wonderful about putting it on the page and acknowledging it. And I think that there are parts of the psyche that come forward and say, because you paid attention, and we know that you're going to pay attention to this as needed. Now we'll. We'll. Now we'll relax. We had to get your attention. Now we have your attention. You've acknowledged it. Now we relax. So you can go on and do these other things that are important to you. And I find that to be tremendously valuable versus just trying to power through with all these, you know, crows flying around my head.

Yeah, I think for me, it's just. It is a completely different thing. And I. I feel like the issue is people think writing is writing, but it's not. Like, for me, when I journal and I call myself a binge journaler because. And this is one of my issues with morning pages is the kind of it must be every day. And of course, we don't like shoulds and shouldn't, so we'll come back to that. But definitely do not journal every day. But it sort of builds up and builds up and builds up, and then I will go to a cafe and I will journal and all this stuff will come out. And then it might be three weeks or something until I feel that need again. And in the meantime, I do my job, which is writing words for publication, which is like a completely different thing. So is it just the feeling, the feelings that we have and learning to tap into, where are those feelings going? Is it a making up a story kind of feeling, or is it a I really need to sort out my life kind of feeling?

I really love that distinction, and I'm glad you brought it up, because I don't believe in dogma either. And so, yeah, shoulds and should, shouldn't. I really love that you're so in touch with your intuition or your feelings that you're able to go, oh, I need a different version of this today. I feel like that's really wise.

Oh, that's very kind. Well, you mentioned intuition there, and you do talk about intuition and also joy around our writing in the book. So if people feel like they're not very intuitive, how. How can they tap into that? And. And also Find more joy. Joy.

So I would love to hear your definition or definitions of intuition when you hear that word. And not just the straight up definition, but any connotations like what comes up for you when you hear that word.

Well, I guess coming back to feelings again, I just sense that I should do something like I, I, I am an intuitive writer, so I, this, I don't plot necessarily or, and I write the next book, whatever kind of comes up for me. So it's just a sort of tapping into what my, my creative self wants to do, I guess.

No, I love that. I didn't expect a lot different. I was just curious. Some people have a pretty negative connotation or feel a negative connotation in that word. They feel like it's really mystical. They feel like it's just sort of woo or out there. And I would suggest it's extremely grounded. I mean I think you articulated it really well. You know, this is the feeling of this thing. And I have a friend who, a neuropsychologist and he wrote a great book called no Self, no Problem. We were having this wonderful conversation one day actually while I was writing the Creative Cure. And I said, well Chris, it feels like what you're saying is in our modern world it's almost as if we've told a bodybuilder to only work out the muscles on the left side of their body. Like that's the only thing that has value. Don't even bother with the right side. And after 20 years of following that advice, the bodybuilder has a hard time even walking down the road because there's no functional balance or muscle. And he got all excited. Oh my God, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I think we have to be aware that in our current paradigm the left brain activities are so highly valued and rewarded that we tend to distrust what's happening in the right side, which includes our experience of creativity in a more free flowing way. It includes, includes experience of intuition, of feelings, of imagination. And so for me it's never the idea that we need to get rid of the left brain activities. Like we really need those to finish a book, to put it out there, to take, to take these steps forward. But we've overemphasized it. And so what I like to encourage us to do are play little games. Notice throughout the day what synchronicities come up and we don't have to attach any particular meeting to them them. But you know, if you see repeating numbers or you're driving down the road. And you just have this nudge to take this road versus the other road on your way to your destination. I like to just play with it without going, okay, I'm going to have some miraculous thing or an epiphany or something dramatic is going to happen, or I've just avoided a horrible death. It doesn't have to be anything dramatic like that. Just the noticing of the interoception, the signals that are coming up from our bodies and from our other senses. Senses and tuning into them a little bit more. And we can find that there is very interesting guidance available to us at all times. And people can interpret that mystically or people can be very practical with it. As if. Well, there's some brain science here where when we settle down from our fight or flight response, from our higher anxiety levels, we enter that ventral vagal state. Joe. And that's where all the good stuff happens. I love to call it the green zone or the creative zone, because as we settle more deeply, we become more aware. Our tunnel vision begins to fade and we. We become aware of the answers and the ideas that are all around us. And so I love to invite people to play with it and actually really use it as a game so it doesn't have to feel so serious. Like, what am I feeling right now? If I totally listened to my body and to my senses, what would I do this morning for breakfast versus what I always do, for example. Again, it can be very simple.

I feel like maybe people have a problem with trust and are afraid of getting something wrong. And I certainly know that. I mean, I'm very creatively confident now after many years of being a writer. But at the beginning it was like, well, I feel like I should do this thing. But what if I'm wrong? What if I spend the next six months working on this book and then. Then nobody wants it? Or what if I choose to spend some money on this particular marketing thing and then it just doesn't work? And so this sort of fear of making a choice based on intuition, it holds people back. So what are your thoughts on that?

If you don't mind, I'd love to ask a question in response. I'm curious if you can think back over your career or just general life and think about a time you did make a mistake. Something you look back on later and was like, oh, I would never have done that again. But. But that it actually led you into experiences that actually became very important parts of your life. Can you think of anything like that?

Yes. Well, obviously there's Lots of them. Because I don't. I mean, we may all make tons of mistakes. I mean, a big one that I often talk about is back in, before Print on Demand, I did a massive print run back in sort of 2007, did a big print run of my first book. And then, then they all sat in my garage because they didn't know anything about book marketing. I didn't realize that if you, if you wrote a book, nobody would buy it unless you did some marketing. But that actually led me to start the Creative Pen, to start this podcast to learn about book marketing and really sort of jump started my career was this massive failure. So. Yeah, absolutely. And each and every time I've done that, I mean, we all do these things, don't we? But I do feel like fear holds people back always.

I mean, I don't know if there's one other factor that holds us back more than simple fear. Yeah. And I feel like it's very primal. Oh, we have this wiring that is, you know, includes a negativity bias and that's such a survival thing. And it serves us right. So there's nothing wrong with it. I think we just have to be aware of it, that our imaginations are tuned and often from a very early age to begin imagining scenes in which we are experiencing rejection or failure or something painful disappointment. And so we often use our imaginations primarily for that cause. And I love to invite people to begin just taking a recess, even if it's only five minutes, and imagining themselves in scenes of what they would really love to experience. But I just love the story you just told. And I, I know that completely like imaginary, but I'm just curious if you hadn't printed all those books and had to learn how to market and perhaps got picked up by a different publisher and everything just kind of went swimmingly. I'm just curious what you wouldn't be enjoying in your life right now. Can you, can you imagine what that might be?

What I wouldn't be enjoying?

No, what you would. Yeah, like you're, you're enjoying. You. You have such beautiful work and this podcast that you do and the way you serve and teach the writing community. So I'm just curious if things had worked out better, you know, like a garage not full of your books. I'm just curious what you wouldn't have now if you hadn't made that mistake.

Well, I think what happened was because of that failure in print publishing at that time in history, it just also coincided. You used the word synchronicity. Earlier. And I know Jungian psychology, so I absolutely love synchronicity. But it was the same year that the Kindle launched and the iPhone launched. And when I failed in this print publishing, traditional media, you know, I got on national tv. I was in Australia at the time, and. And I thought. But then none of it worked. And then I saw the Kindle, I saw the iPhone, and I saw Americans, and I was like, what if I can use this technology and I don't have to use print books? I can reach these people through digital means. And so I got on the Kindle and the iPhone and podcasting very, very early and have kind of surfaced that technological wave, I guess, since then. So, yeah, that mistake in inverted commas led me into so much. But you keep putting this back on me. Jacob, I think you need to tell us about one of your mistakes that has turned into success.

Oh, my God. Well, you know, I alluded to it earlier, but I had built these businesses, and I was waking up at 3am every day absolutely terrified, and everyone around me, all they saw was this big new office I had built. And all they saw was the influence I had around town or whatever. They couldn't see how terrified I was. And that was around 2007, actually. And so I had a pretty big breakthrough. I went to what I thought was a meditation retreat. It turned out to be a shamanic initiation. And I didn't know what a shaman was, but I had a medicine journey during that that was like this massive moment of clarity, and I had no idea what to do with it. I went back to my life, to my office, and scrambled as hard as I could. All I knew is that I had experienced some aspect of me that was free, that wasn't afraid, and that would act, would actually love to have created something very different with life. And I also had no idea how to rearrange my life. I just was. I felt so responsible. And the next year or so, the financial meltdown, the mortgage meltdown came along and just wiped me out. And so, of course, I don't like to sugarcoat these things and go, oh, you know, everything happens for a reason. And it was exactly what I needed. It's like, no, it was absolutely terrifying and turned me upside down. But that was the event. And I could look back at and say, oh, I made so many mistakes. I got in so, so far too deep into these projects and all that. The truth is, though, that that experience. And I love that you're familiar with Jungian work, that's where I began to really learn about the Jungian work during that time. And that was what really cracked me open and allowed me to find out who I was under all those previous layers that I'd been wearing like this really heavy, ill fitting armor for so long. And so that was one of those really big, you know, quotes mistakes that led to me finding the path I was really meant to be on in the first place.

That's interesting. I think we might be like almost exactly the same age. I think we've gone through things at exactly the same time. But, but time, Time is a really important thing here because both of us are talking about experiences that. Because I also. I got laid off in the financial crisis and it took a lot of time to. But that also shaped the way I run my business now. But let's just talk about the perspective of time because it feels like both of us have said, oh, this really bad thing happened and then I changed my life. But how long did it take you to extricate yourself from the situation you were in and be in a life where you were more happy and fulfilled? Not that we're ever completely there, but I think, I feel like that's what people need is this sort of perspective on if you want to change direction. How long does it take and what's the kind of effort involved.

You want me to give a comfortable story or do you want me to tell what I feel is the truth?

[Joanna Penn]

The truth, absolutely.

[Jacob Nordby]

Absolutely.

I, I love what you said on your website. You know, it hasn't always been this way. No. And, and I would never want to discourage anyone by saying it's. It's can be a really lengthy process. I will say that at least in my experience, I had so much I was carrying when it comes to my beliefs about myself and the world and what I was capable of and all of that. That, that big sort of terrifying event that shook everything up. It was like I had some years of simply going. I've been, I've been running so fast that I haven't ever looked under the hood, if you will. I'm mixing my metaphors there. My mother is a therapist and she likes to use the, the idea of skating on a frozen river. She said, I skated on this frozen river and I was terrified that if I ever slowed down I would, I would fall in, I would, the ice would crack and I would fall in. She's like, one day the ice just broke open and I was, I fell in. And I had no choice but to do all this inner work and examination. And I Think that's a really beautiful way to look at it. So once the process of self discovery really gets underway, I would like to say it's exactly 16 months. In my experience, it can take longer. But if we're willing to see it as that and not just numb it out or try to run away from it or do whatever over the top of it, if we're willing to go into that exploration, what we'll find in there is our ourselves. And what we'll find in there is our authentic voice. And what we'll find in there is our sense of purpose, you know, and so I'd love to give. Well, it's a range of one to seven years. In my experience, it was several years at least before I even began to feel that my footing was coming back. Joe, I would love to hear what your experience of that was.

Well, again, pretty similar. And it's, it's funny, I was just reflecting then because you're reminding me of those early days and this book, the Creative Cure. I feel like now I'm not in the place where I need this, but this is the book I needed, like back in 2005 when I was like 30 years old and thinking, what the hell am I doing with my life? And I read, then I read and I listened to a lot of audio. Tony Robbins, you know, good self help guru, Jack Canfield, the Success Principles. Those are the books I was reading. And I was trying to change my mindset. And then I figured out that I wanted to write. And then I figured out, then I got into writing. And it was a process of years. So between like 2005 being really super miserable to 2007, I really sort of put that first book out. And then 2011 was when I finally left my job to go full time. And I always talk about it taking five years. So it's kind of good that you did put it in that ballpark.

Well, I think otherwise, Joe, it's easy. And I, God knows I tried to do this. I tried to shortcut the process as often as I could.

Yeah, right.

Like get me out of here. This is not comfortable, it's not fun. But I think that being aware that shortcutting it can. I've seen it happen a lot of times I was actually writing, but I got really sort of springboarded forward a bit. I entered this thing called the Next Top Spiritual Author Competition. And that was when I was living in Austin and there was this publishing deal as the kind of the big carrot. And of course I didn't win. That competition. But I got to witness a lot of other writers, and this was my first time of really being in the space with a lot of other writers. This was kind of a global thing, and there were a lot of people who had entered it, and many of us got to know each other, some of whom are still my friends to this day. But I also got to witness a lot of people, Joe, who had had some kind of experience and they wanted to write about, they wanted to share their wisdom with the world. They also hadn't given it the time to really cook, to mature. And so I've watched some of them get a little bit frozen there to where had they been willing to keep going in their own process and let it grow deeper for a while, let it really mature, they would have been able to keep going. But I see, I've seen some of them kind of freeze frame there, and they've never been able to move beyond that one thing, because they formed, they reformed their identity a little too quickly around, oh, this is who I am, you know, And I don't want to make fun of that at all, because I think it's very natural. Anytime we're feeling out of sorts or out of balance, we want to recover our sense of equilibrium. And so I have a lot of compassion for that. But I would encourage anyone going through, through what feels like being turned upside down and shaken, give yourself some grace and realize that jumping on it too quickly and saying, this is now who I am might actually rob you of some real benefits that will enrich your work down the line.

And this interview is certainly going in a different direction than I thought it would be, but we're leaning into that. And you talk there about moving beyond the one thing and those people who were stuck. And this is something I think about a lot. And my listeners will know. This is something I've been thinking about for a while, because obviously I started in this independent author career back in 2007, and for the last few years, I've been really thinking about how to make sure everything stays fresh and new rather than sort of go into a rut. Because every industry, although being an independent author was new in sort of 2007, and there was a lot of new things, and things have changed a lot since then. Technologies, obviously, but what we don't want to be is stagnant in our creativity, in our writing, in our lives. So. And I know there'll be people listening who have been writing for decades as well. Some people listening have been writing for 30, 40 years. So how do we keep things fresh? How do we keep pivoting, changing, moving forwards when we have a career that we love, when we do something we love but we know we can't get stagnant?

I feel like that's a $10 million.

Question, but you must be in a similar position, right? I mean, you've been doing what you do a long time, and you work with people who've been doing it a long time, and what you don't want to be is the jaded person, right?

Yeah. I was looking over your work, Joe, and I just love how diverse your work is. Is. I feel like you have a lot to teach me about this, actually, in terms of just really being a little more prolific and, you know, writing these different types of things. I feel like every creative endeavor, anything that's truly original, there is this required uncertainty. I don't know how this will work out. And without that, often we find ourselves sort of repeating ourselves. And I'm thinking of some massively famous writers in the U.S. one in particular comes to mind for some reason, whose work has become so formulaic. But it's block. It's always a blockbuster, you know? And I want to be clear. I don't think there's anything wrong with writing two formulas. I think we all do it to some degree, but I just look at some of these things and realize, oh, the production distribution has become more important than the art in some cases. And so to step outside of that, to step over the line of, this is what I know. This is what I know works for me in terms of bringing me financial security or whatever it might be. I think there's that itch. And I think it goes back to what you were talking about earlier about intuition, Joe. It's that same sense of, okay, I know I'm being called outside of this familiar sort of routine, and I don't think there's a point at which is like, okay, this is wrong. So it's not, to me, about right or wrong. Maybe a person decides, I really just love writing according to this template or formula. I just really love doing this, and I love knowing kind of what to expect from it and all of that. So I wouldn't say everyone needs to always be, like, leaping off into the abyss and building their wings or something. But I would love to hear your thoughts since we're exploring this together. I definitely didn't expect the interview to go this way either. So I'm in the deep end.

Well, I think it is about taking risks, and it's funny because when I, between like 2005, 6, and then when I left my job in 2011, I was working a day job, so I was working as a. As a business consultant. And then I eventually went part time. And so what I was doing, I was doing on the side. And that's how I think about it now. So right now, for example, I'm writing a screenplay and it's a risk and it's not making me any money, but it's almost like I'm doing it on the side. So I feel like the taking risks where we both started, we took risks to unwind one career and start another. And then maybe it is just all about doing things on the side where. Whether you're, whether you love your job job or whether you're stuck in a job.

Ooh, I love that. And there were people who asked me early on as, as I was writing and putting things out there, why I wouldn't just take the full leap into, you know, trying to earn my living right. Right from the written word. And one thing that I told them then is I didn't want to put my process under that kind of financial pressure early on on, I. I'm like, if I can look at the job that I'm doing, the day job to pay the bills, if I can look at that as a funding source rather than. It must fulfill my, my creative needs, it must make. Fill me with a sense of, you know, and those things are very important to me in life. But there was a period of time during which it was just important for me to look at the work I did for pay as a funding source and not try to make it more than that. And for some reason, that actually frees up that energy I would have used in being miserable about having to work this stupid job for money. It freed that energy up to go. Oh, this is, this is how I fund being able to take my time and really grow as a writer.

Well, we are almost out of time. I think you and I could do this for a lot longer. But tell people where can they find you and your books online?

Well, you can go to jacobnordby.com that's one thing and probably the easiest way. And I would love to just say how much I love the world of writers, Joe, and you've been doing such amazing work in this space for a really long time. And I just want you to know I'm so grateful that you invited me here and thank you for doing the good work you're doing.

Oh, well, thanks so much for your time. Jacob, that was great.

[Joanna Penn]

So I hope you found the discussion interesting and found Jacob's insights useful. I certainly found our conversation to be surprisingly revealing. Let me know what you think of today's episode and also whether you're spring cleaning in your author life. Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. Comment on X at the Creative Pen or email me joannathecreativepen.com and of course send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Next week. I'm talking about writing as a tool for granted Grief with Karen Wyatt, and that can be grief because of death, obviously, but also for other forms of change. And I feel like right now there's a lot of grief going around in the, let's say, political and technological spheres. So it is a very useful discussion. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the background Blacklist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] blueprint. If you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X at the Creative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook fpenauthor Happy writing and I'll see you next time.