Loki Is In Charge. How Authors Can Thrive In A Time Of Transition With Becca Syme

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Creative Penn Podcast for Writers

Episode: 834 - "Loki Is In Charge: How Authors Can Thrive In A Time Of Transition"
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Becca Syme (Author, Coach, Better Faster Academy)
Date: October 27, 2025
Main Theme: Navigating burnout, sustainability, and unpredictability in an author career; embracing change, letting go, and thriving as a writer in times of transition.

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Episode Overview

Joanna Penn interviews Becca Syme, bestselling author, coach, and creator of the Better Faster Academy, for a deep dive into the realities of creative burnout, career sustainability, and the constant unpredictability in publishing—metaphorically ruled by "Loki," the god of chaos. The conversation covers recognizing burnout, the art of saying no, letting go of unhelpful expectations, the transition periods in publishing, and the importance of resilience and hope for writers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Recognizing and Recovering from Burnout

• Burnout vs. Block
  • Burnout is often confused with “being empty” or writer’s block, but has distinct features and timelines.
  • If rest or refilling creative wells doesn’t rekindle motivation, longer-lasting symptoms may indicate burnout.
  • “If you're empty and you try to fill again, and it doesn't come back, then it's more likely to be burnout.” — Becca [17:26]
• Causes of Burnout in Writers
  • Not just overwork—can stem from life transitions, grief, or biological changes (e.g., perimenopause).
  • Stakes in life or fear (e.g., financial insecurity, job loss) drain creativity: “Maslow’s hierarchy—if your base level foundation is being attacked … it's gonna be real hard to reach creative freedom if you're worried about stuff.” — Becca [19:02]
• Coaches Can Burn Out, Too
  • Even experienced coaches struggle, especially when failing to say no or scaling one-on-one commitments.
  • Adaptation includes switching to scalable content: more podcasts, group experiences, higher prices for 1:1, less travel.
  • “It’s really hard to quit something that has been good or beneficial, even if it is having a high cost.” — Becca [22:00]

The Power (and Difficulty) of Saying No

• Saying no is tough, especially for people-pleasers or in creative industries.
• Major learning often comes after things break down (missed deadlines, exhaustion), but you can learn to spot overwhelm sooner and act earlier.
• Strategies:
  • Templates make saying no easier and less emotionally charged.
  • Regularly reflect on capacity and priorities—learn to embrace the “joy of missing out” (JOMO) and not just fear (FOMO).
  • “We can’t just have a magical feeling … you’ve got to do it. And then it feels better each time you do it. Because it turns out that it didn’t kill me to say no.” — Becca [27:08]

Loki Is In Charge: Embracing Chaos in Publishing

• The Metaphor:
  • Writers hope publishing follows “Captain America” logic—do the right things, get the expected results.
  • In reality, “Loki”—the god of chaos—is in charge: sometimes actions correlate to results, but often, randomness prevails.
  • “Sometimes the answer is literally Loki’s in charge. We don’t know what happened. … Sometimes the reason is, there are too many people publishing that day, or you didn't happen to take off on TikTok, and that is not something you can control.” — Becca [31:10]
• Letting Go of Over-Control
  • Rather than post-mortem every failure or outcome, sometimes it's healthier to accept unpredictability and move forward.
  • Focus energy on resilient action (write the next book, start a new project) instead of fruitless backtracking.
• Transition Periods and Industry Chaos
  • While transitions bring more visible change and uncertainty, unpredictability has always been a feature of publishing.
  • Each era brings its wave of new strategies, tools, and “experts” (remember Facebook ads, KU launches, TikTok waves, etc.).
  • Seek out voices that inspire possibility—especially during unsettling times.

Practical Advice for Writers in Uncertain Times

• On Focusing Energy:
  • Say no to good-but-non-essential opportunities to protect creative energy for what most matters.
  • Recognize when you’re acting from peer pressure or from true alignment with your goals.
• What to Quit, What to Keep
  • Quit:
    • Book signings as a main business investment for low/midlist authors—treat them as reader/networking opportunities, not as primary sales events.
      • “Book signings are either ways for you to connect with the fans you already have … or it's an opportunity for you to network with other authors. Very rarely is it going to sell enough books at enough volume that it's going to be a good investment of your time and money.” — Becca [46:03]
    • Hating (and judging) other authors, especially over business model choices like AI.
      • Walk away from internet outrage; it’s unproductive and mass-dysregulates.
  • Keep:
    • Writing itself—your creative practice is the anchor, regardless of external market changes.
    • Hope for the future: there is always possibility for new ways to sell, reach readers, and find creative fulfillment.

Social Media, Dysregulation, and the Writer’s Mind

• Online discourse can be a loop of dysregulation (anxiety, fear, anger) that rarely resolves.
• In digital spaces, “the system benefits from us being dysregulated, not regulated.”
• Practical tip: shut down the computer, put away the phone, and open your manuscript.
  • “The number one difference … in people who easily and quickly are productive versus the people who aren’t, almost 201, is how much time they spend on social media and whether or not they reach for their phone first thing in the morning.” — Becca [59:00]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “If you're empty and you try to fill again ... and it doesn't come back, then it's more likely to be burnout.” — Becca, on distinguishing burnout from a temporary creative block [17:26]
• "Captain America is not in charge of the publishing industry. Loki is in charge.” — Becca, summarizing her metaphor of chaos [31:07]
• "Sometimes the answer is Loki’s in charge and I need to not worry too much because I’m wasting my time trying to find the reason…” — Becca, on letting go of the need for complete control [32:25]
• “The number one difference in people who are productive versus those who aren’t ... is how much time they spend on social media and whether or not they reach for their phone first thing in the morning.” — Becca [59:00]
• "There is no need for us to quit writing or believe that writing is going to be taken away from us ... there’s always going to be other ways." — Becca [60:34]
• "You can have a career just selling some books every month." — Joanna, on sustaining a fulfilling author career outside of best-seller narratives [43:18]
• "If you love hand-selling, please do it. If you love festivals, please do it. But if you're feeling pressured to do it because everybody's doing it, please question the premise." — Becca [50:32]
• "We can’t just have a magical feeling ... you’ve got to do it. And then it feels better each time you do it.” — Becca, on learning to say no [27:08]
• "Open the manuscript, open the manuscript, open the manuscript." — Becca, her mantra for focusing on writing [60:37]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 16:20 – Becca returns, shares her experience with burnout and creative recovery.
• 17:04 – Distinguishing burnout from creative block; key indicators.
• 19:02 – How life events and emotions impact creativity.
• 22:00 – Becca explains her personal journey into burnout, even as a “quit coach.”
• 24:42 – Recognizing when to start saying no and how to do it effectively.
• 27:08 – The importance of practicing saying no, especially for people-pleasers.
• 29:12 – The “Loki is in charge” metaphor and its application to publishing.
• 34:30 – Is there more chaos now, or are we just more aware of it?
• 37:58 – Who to listen to in times of transition; the importance of new voices.
• 40:42 – Kickstarter as a creative and business tool for authors.
• 46:03 – Common things authors need to quit: the book signing myth.
• 51:00 – Quit hating/judging other authors, especially over the use of AI.
• 57:45 – On mass-dysregulation and why walking away from digital outrage is the answer.
• 60:22 – What not to quit: writing, hope, and resilience for the future.

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• The publishing world and creative careers are inherently unpredictable—embrace adaptability.
• Be intentional: reflect on what genuinely serves your creative energy and business, and have the courage to let go (“quit”) what doesn’t.
• Don’t get caught in industry narratives that don’t fit your journey; your success can look different and still be fulfilling.
• Limit your exposure to social media negativity and protect your mind for creativity—walk, write, and connect with the real world.
• Always come back to your writing—your manuscript and your hope are what you truly own.

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Resources & Further Links

• Becca Syme’s new book and Kickstarter:
  betterfasteracademy.com/links
• Joanna Penn:
  thecreativepenn.com
• StoryBundle: Writing Bundle Featuring Joanna's Book

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For more insights on creative sustainability, transition, and thriving in chaos, listen to the full episode or explore Becca Syme’s resources.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Creative Penn Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives, I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 834 of the podcast and it is Sunday 26th October 2025. As I record this in today's show, I'm talking to Becca Syme about burnout and sustainability in an author career, why Loki, the God of mischief and chaos, is really in charge, and why publishing is never predictable, why what you still need to quit and what you don't need to quit, and how authors can thrive in a time of transition. Becca has a Kickstarter campaign on right now, so make sure to check that out. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing Things. It was Frankfurt Book Fair last week, which is still the largest book fair in the world. I haven't been for years to be honest, since it is very much aimed at traditional publishing and bigger IP holders and it is pretty expensive. But of course some of what they talk about is relevant for us now. Audible shared notes from their session which was called using AI to unlock your audio catalog's potential. And remember, this is a conference aimed at traditional publishing. So the people who would have gone to this session were people in charge of catalogues of hundreds, thousands of books. So they say in the article the bulk of audiobooks available today are in English, yet more than 85% of audible listening happens in a customer's local language. Additionally, there's enormous untapped potential in publishers. Backlists as best sellers only represent a small share of audiobooks that listeners are hungry for. It's interesting, there is they kind of say Backlist is just not bestseller, which is interesting. I think most of us would see Backlist as anything that is not currently the thing you're promoting right now. Nearly 80% of listening hours on Audible are generated by backlist titles, and I think this holds true for all stores. So whether you're talking about Amazon sales or Kobo sales or print sales, most things are generated by backlist. So I want to emphasize this as it underscores the importance of growing your backlist and writing consistently over years and having that more long term view of what an income as an author means. I actually went and checked my own ACX listens and income for 2025 just to see if this was true and it really was around 80% backlist the main front list title is successful self publishing 4th edition, which came out in the summer, but the rest of the listens are books that are years old. So just to encourage you, when we think about an indie author career, we're not so much thinking in big spikes and then nothing. We're thinking about multip streams of income from lots of different places every month that add up to something significant when you have enough books and enough of an audience. It is not a get rich quick scheme, it is not a sexy form of income, but it is doable, that's for sure. So back to the Audible article. One way to achieve that goal is by leveraging AI to bring titles to audio that otherwise might never be produced. Audible offers multiple pathways currently in beta through AI narration and translation for publishers and voice replicas for independent creators using acx. So this was really interesting. So one obviously they are positioning AI as for those titles which you were not going to do in audio otherwise. And then we've got AI narration and translation. So we are going to see much more, many more options for translation. So it's possible that this might be available through Audible in future and also voice replicas for independent creators. So it may be that I can do a voice clone on ACX at some point as well as through 11 labs. So I think that's interesting too. So Audible is investing in both professionally narrated titles and AI enabled catalog expansion, so I think that's a good way for you to think about it. I know that some people want to use human narrators. I'm obviously still a human narrator and will continue to human narrate. My non fiction was I will use my voice claim for fiction, most likely short stories I'll probably still do as a human. But I think it's good to think about your catalogue as potentially a bit of both. Publishers Weekly also reported that there was a full day of AI panels which included Trust in Academic Publishing in an age of AI, Practical applications of AI Tools in publishing, including marketing very specifically, and a session on copyright and licensing. So I think this is important for authors to hear. Too many authors are still waiting for all the AI stuff to disappear magically as if it's not going to continue. But if traditional publishing, if Frankfurt Book Fair, which is the bastion of traditional publishing, is embracing it, then any indie author not using AI for some things, marketing and business stuff, obviously you don't have to use it for anything creative people are falling behind. I mean, if traditional publishing is years behind indies, and of course many of them us in the indie space have been using AI for years. But let's not fall behind is what I wanted to say. Back to the Audible article. They talk about various listening behaviors in different European countries, noting that specificity in listening behaviors is why Audible has developed tools like Maven, the first ever AI powered audiobook search, which makes it easier than ever for listeners to find titles that meet their niche interests. So this is interesting because I moved to Spotify for audiobook listening a while back, haven't used Maven. Perhaps you have, but any kind of help with discoverability with audio is a good thing. It's definitely a challenge. So those articles are linked in the show notes as ever. And in book Marketing this week BookBub has introduced free Reads. Their blog post says running price promotions has long been a popular way for authors to reach new readers and drive long term growth, with free deals often driving 10 times the downloads of a 99 cent promotion. Free promotions are an especially effective strategy for growing your audience and generating revenue. And I would say also getting reviews. You can get a lot of reviews on free books and that's often a reason to put your books for free for a limited time at least. Since the earliest days of BookBub we've seen consistently high demand for our free featured deals. So now we're announcing Free Reads, a new way for us to feature more free deals. So essentially this is a new dedicated email that targets a highly engaged subset of BookBub, empower readers to feature even more free books. So you submit your book to Featured deals in the same way. But now they're sending more promotional emails than ever, so you have a better chance of getting selected. So I just submitted for this for the first time in ages and put a note in the submission box saying I'd be happy with the Free Reads list. I don't know if they're keeping it entirely separate, but my Stone of Fire has been permanently free for many years and it's the first book in the 13 book thriller series, my arcane series. And so it's the one I promote the most. I get reviews on it and some people go on to read the other books in the series. So I have applied for like seriously, I haven't applied for a featured deal in ages, so I thought I would see what happens there. So that is BookBub Featured Deals now with Free Reads. So in personal news, thanks to everyone telling me that the hardback books are Arriving for the Buried and the Drowned Kickstarter Zoe says this book is gorgeous. Thanks so much for it. I love it and in Raleigh, North Carolina said it has arrived here perfectly packaged and in top shape. Can't wait to dive in. So that is really good. If you did order the hardback. Hopefully wherever you are it has now arrived or it is arriving. You should have everything. So the Buried in the Drowned Kickstarter is pretty much over and I really do like finishing fulfillment. It's that kind of sense of closing the circle. I will obviously publish the Buried in the Drowned on other stores in I think I'm going to do that in December so I've also resent the ones that came back so hopefully everyone has everything. You should also have the ebook and the audiobook and the add ons so just email me if you don't have what you ordered. We also did the short story webinar last weekend and that was great fun. And yeah, I mean in terms of my next Kickstarter it's definitely going to be probably this time next year. I don't even know for which book it will depend. My Masters goes through till September 2026 so I will have some writing during this time, but I don't know whether I'll have another big Kickstarter. Certainly the Gothic Cathedral book will be re emerging. I'm getting a lot of ideas and a lot of depth that I want to do with that book. There will be a book on writing short stories, so yeah, I will still have some stuff coming, but in terms of an actual campaign it will be a while. Also this week I finished up my slides for Author Nation. I'm speaking on using AI as a collaborative tool for lots of different things other than writing. I'm also on a panel with Mark Lefebvre, Johnny Truant, and I think Dan Wood from Draft 2 Digital about a long term career as an author. We also have a Patreon meetup if you're a patron. I will be around if you're at Author Nation and available for elbow bumps and hellos and selfies. But no hugs. Not hugging. I am minimising the potential to get sick and I'm not shaking hands. I don't mask up, but of course if you want to. There are quite a lot of people who do wear masks so there is that kind of environment where you get to decide. So also remember you can still get the Writing Story bundle containing books on character arcs, world building, tropes, collaboration, co writing, pacing, business, professionalism, long term success, podcasting, productivity and my second edition of how to Write Non Fiction is in there too. This is a fantastic ebook bundle available for a limited [e-mail] writing. That's storybundle.com writing. So thanks for your emails and comments this week. Kathy said about Steve's interview on branding. I love how Steve reframes brand from just logos to actual reputation and how a brand is viewed by other people. It's that distinction between what you think your brand is versus what readers believe it is. His point about consistency across voice, visuals and messaging is also solid. I also like the idea of making a workbook that's not just information with blanks, but a more meaningful experience that commands attention in a noisy AI world. And from Laura's interview about performance, I have my first ever book reading of my kids book that I self published. Thanks for the tips. Plus selling direct is the way to go for me. And Mark sent a lovely smiley picture of him signing books saying signing lots of copies of my book got me thinking of you signing yours at Book Vault. And yes, Mark's book is the surprising gift of doubt. And yeah, we are so lucky to get to sign our books for readers. I'm really I'm grateful for all of you who buy the signed editions, but also grateful to have Book Vault available to do the shipping. And like I said, I made a mistake of trying to do some shipping myself this time and it just backfired. So I'm definitely getting Book Vault to do all my shipping in the future. Okay, so please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes atthecreative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. You can also email me send me pictures. I haven't had pictures recently, so send me pictures of where you're listening or your favorite cemetery or churchyard to joannathecreativepenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation. So today's episode is sponsored by Book Funnel, new sponsor Book Funnel. But I've been using Book Funnel for years to deliver free reader magnets and also to sell ebooks and audiobooks direct. I am absolutely a user of Book Funnel. They say building your author mailing list shouldn't feel like you need a computer science degree. You write the Books Book Funnel handles getting them to read it. Would you rather spend your time writing or tech supporting your readers, trying to get your ebooks and audiobooks onto their devices? That is a solved problem. You write the Books Book Funnel handles getting them to readers. And believe me, I remember the time before Book Funnel handled this and it was very painful. Whether you're offering a free short story or exclusive content to grow your subscriber list or selling ebooks and audiobooks directly, Book Funnel makes it simple. Your readers get their book instantly. You get happy readers. Grow your subscriber list and nobody has to troubleshoot broken links or help Aunt Carol get her books onto her new e reader or her phone. That is another one. And believe me, we all used to do this. It was was it was such a pain. And now Book Funnel handles all that. It's just fantastic. So thousands of authors use Book Funnel to deliver books because it just works. No tech headaches, no lost subscribers, no embarrassing can you resend that link? Emails Ready to grow your list the easy way? [e-mail] TheCreative Pen that's BookFunnel.com TheCreative pen. And remember, if you use my links, it shows sponsors that you are listening to the show and they keep sponsoring. So I keep podcasting. So this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing. But my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] TheCreativePen thanks to the 16 new patrons who joined in the last week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. I appreciate all of you. If you join the community, you get access to all the backlist videos and audio covering writing, craft, author business, AI tutorials and more. Last week we had our live office hours which was great fun. We hung out for 90 minutes on Zoom. We had lots of people live. I answer questions, share my screen and then the recording in video and audio go out to the Patreon. It is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. And I mean the price of a black coffee at McDonald's, not one of those flat coffees at a posh coffee shop. So yes, or you can buy me posh coffee shop coffee if you're feeling generous. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com p a t r e o-n.com forward/the creative pen. Right? Let's get into the interview. Becca Syme is an author, coach and creator of the Better Faster Academy. She is a USA Today best selling author of Small Town Romance and Cozy Mystery and also writes the Dear Writer series of non fiction fiction books and is also the host of the quickcast podcast. So welcome back to the show, Becca.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me again. I love being here.

[A]

Oh, yes. Now, you were last on the show in March 2024, so I guess around 18 months now. So give us an update. What has changed in your writing and your author business?

[B]

So I've started writing more fiction again. I think the last time I was here, I was doing almost zero fiction writing just because I was so busy. And I went through burnout, which is not going to surprise anyone. I think we've all been there. And one of the things I decided as a post burnout goal was to try to write fiction every day. And so I don't every single day do it, but I do it often enough that it feels like I'm doing it every day. So I'm happy about that.

[A]

Well, that's interesting because you hear people saying, oh, I've got a block around writing fiction or something. How do people know if they are in burnout versus they are just empty? Or perhaps they have other reasons. Like how do people tell where they are and the reason why they can't write?

[B]

Yeah, how long it lasts is usually the biggest indicator for me. Because if you're empty and you try to fill again, right? Like, let's go reading, let's go watching, et cetera, and it doesn't come back, then it's more likely to be burnout and then burnout itself. Like the kind of extreme burnout that we hear about, right, where you, like, can't get up off the bathroom floor, that kind of thing. That will be real evident when you're on what we call, like all systems. Burnout will be real evident. But usually like a burnout that is a creative burnout or a like, physical or emotional burnout can have other potential causes. So I would always go looking for things like, am I in perimenopause? Like, I joke with people, is it burnout or am I in perimenopause? It's like it's the same. It feels the same. So, like, I always want to check biological first or if I'm in a life transition, that's often the reason why I'm more blocked, et cetera. So I want to look outside and environmental first to see if there's a cause. And if there is, then I want the cause to get dealt with. But it's usually time. Like, how long is it lasting?

[A]

How long is it lasting? Yeah, I think that's so important. It seems like people blame writing before anything else. So I had a friend who had a death in the family and was like, oh, I just, just not writing. And I'm like, yeah, I mean, give it six months or what? I mean, grieving is another reason. Right. There are lots of reasons why your, your whole self might be like, now's not the time to write a cozy mystery or whatever.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I don't think we consider enough how different it is to be a creative person versus other things you might do for work. Like if I'm grieving, I can probably still show up to my Starbucks, Starbucks job and do a reasonable job of making coffee most of the time. Right. So I may not be as affected by my ability to go to the grocery store or my ability to like paint houses or something. But all of our work comes from our brain. So anything that impacts our cognition, anything that impacts our processing time. And honestly, if the stakes go up even just a little bit in our real life, there's a likelihood that it's going to impact our creativity to a point where like sometimes just I'm afraid I might lose my job, then all of a sudden the creativity dries up and goes away. Or I'm afraid of what might happen if. And then insert million things here that can be making me feel afraid. Creativity can just go away because again, it's Maslow's hierarchy. Right. I know it's not a hundred percent, one layer at a time, all the time, but if your base level foundation is being attacked, you don't know for sure how you're gonna make your mortgage next month. It's gon real hard to reach creative freedom if you're worried about stuff.

[A]

Yeah. So thinking about ourselves as whole people rather than like you can just turn on the writing and even if everything else is kind of crazy. But then I've. I've got to ask you, Becca, since you are a coach, you're a very wise person. You've been on this show lots and you've helped me help many people that you coach. And you've talked about sort of avoiding burnout before. How on earth did you end up in burnout?

[B]

So some of it is high stakes, right? It is when you get. It's not uncommon for people when they see a lot of success in their business, to be overwhelmed by all the things that there are to do, to have a hard time delegating. It's kind of the, in the phases of a business and the way businesses grow, there's a phase that is like massive growth. Like infrastructure causes massive growth. And then if you don't adapt to that Easily or quickly by either offloading things off your plate or lowering the financial stakes. Because a lot of people will get burned out when like I have to make all of these decisions about money and money stresses me out. So, like I have high stakes. That means the stress goes up, which means I cost me more energy to do things that I would have done previously with less. And it can kind of sneak up on you if you're not conscious about it all the time. And then of course, you know, you have to quit stuff, which you would think being the quit coach, I would be really great at that. But it's, it's really hard to quit something that has been good or beneficial, even if it is having a high cost.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, and obviously being a coach, you give a lot of yourself to other people and I just can't imagine how hard that is. I mean, one of the reasons I do this podcast is I hope to help people and do I think through the show, but I. It's not the intensity that coaches like yourself do. So how did you then manage to adapt and change things so that now obviously you're out of it again?

[B]

Yeah, I'm probably doing some more similar things to what you've been doing, which is trying to create more what I would call like large scale. Right. Like doing more podcast episodes. I'm trying to travel less and be really intentional about the places I travel being worth it for my energy and time. And then I'm also doing more volume. So like I'm trying to do more books, more posts, more social media time. Things that don't cost me one on one like for a long time. And probably the last time I was here, I was at maybe not the height height, but pretty close to the height. I was coaching eight to 10 hours a day, every day sometimes. Yeah. So like I was doing super high volume coaching and then also traveling a lot at the same time. I would travel two times a month for conference speaking sometimes and every single month of the year. I never really had a break from it, but that was again, my own take on it. Wasn't nobody forced me to do it. And so I had to quit saying yes to everything, which was very difficult. And then I had to quit saying yes to all coaching. I had to do things like raise my coaching prices. But then I also have to create the value in other places. So go back to making the quick cast again, start producing more nonfiction books, doing more high volume courses, like small free courses and stuff like that. So I'm doing similar high volume Things. But it is. It's a transition for me, who's used to being accessible and reachable and able to help people one on one a lot. So it's been a challenge.

[A]

Yeah, I get that. And. And I guess for people listening, I mean, there's a point in your career, whatever that is, where you do have to say yes a lot. And then there's a point where you have to start saying no more. And how do people figure out when the hell that is? Is it like you say, at the point of overwhelm, you're almost forced into it? Or are there ways people can kind of tell when they need to start saying no rather than forcing themselves to say yes?

[B]

So usually you. You learn by the sort of everything crashes down, right? Like you have a burnout, you miss a big important deadline, you let somebody down. So that's usually where most of us get our awareness or our learning curve, I guess, of like, oh, I need to quit these things. But it is possible to see the patterns coming and sort of helpfully strategize for yourself about how to be more. More intentional with your time, especially as you see growth happening. Because once you get into place where with your author career, where there's demand for what you're doing, there's going to only be increasing demand because demand is so unusual, like high levels of demand. So once you see that coming, if you want to not get into a burnout place, you want to be more strategic about it, you can say no earlier fear. But you have to be willing to pay the price for it. And I think that's what a lot of us aren't capable of doing, that we're so afraid of what happens if we say no, that we get that fomo, right? The fear of missing out. And we're not able to say no. Not able to. So we sort of have to teach ourselves that Jomo concept, the joy of missing out by being forced to say no by life or energy or just circumstances. So most of us have to learn by falling face first into it. But. But there.

[A]

Which I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which happened to you. I mean, in fact, it's so interesting because literally just before we got on the phone, I. I had an email about a speaking opportunity. And part of me was like, oh, that would be really good networking. So this was not a money thing. This was more a networking thing. And I was like, like, maybe I should say yes. And then I remembered that I keep an email template for precisely this time, which basically says reasons why I'm not doing this kind of thing. And so I copy and paste that email and then make a few adjustments to it. But for those people who struggle to say no, and I did send that email, I didn't think about it too long and I, I've kind of reached that point now. But having the email template helps me a lot because as people pleasers and you know, you have to be able to say no in a graceful manner. I mean, you don't, don't, but I feel like I do.

[B]

Yeah. But I think a lot of people pleasers do, though. And there's a fair number of us in the artistic industry, right. The, the way that we got here is often because we like to make people happy or, you know, etc. And so you need to know that whatever consequence you're afraid of paying is either not as bad as you think it's going to be. So like me saying no, I think the stakes are very high for that. But it turns out they're not as high as I am afraid that they are. And so just knowing with practice that it does actually get easier to say no if I will allow myself to practice it. But the problem is we don't understand what's going on in our brain, right? So like with a lot of us, we actually have life and death stakes attached to the. The idea of saying no at all. Like, I think somehow it's going to be this nebulous outcome. And anytime I think, well, what happens if I say no and I get a fear that is so nebulous, I can't tell you you what it is that I'm actually afraid of. That's something we can just not listen to because that's a, that's a fear response that's not helpful. But a lot of us need to learn how to say no by doing. We can't just have a magical feeling that we're waiting for when I'm all, I'll say no when it feels okay to say. Well, it's never going to feel okay to say no, Kevin. You've got to do it. And then it feels better each time you do it it. Because it turns out that it didn't kill me to say no. And that's what I'm afraid of.

[A]

Yeah. And as you said, it's not hard to say no to things you hate. It's hard to say no to things that are good and would be good for your business or would be good connections or whatever. But if you say no, then you have more energy for the things that you want to do. And so, yeah, I think that's so important. Okay. I wanted to ask you about something. So I've heard you say this a couple of times, and on your Facebook page, like, just last week, you had a post saying loki is in charge. So I wanted to ask you, what do you mean by that? It's fascinating, but just explain who Loki is, just in case people don't know.

[B]

Yeah. The God of chaos. Right. So Loki is the God of mischief, or the God of chaos and the things that are unpredictable and I think what we all would like. And so I'll use the Marvel version because it's easy to kind of contrast Loki with Captain America inside of Marvel. But really I meant Loki like the commonly known God of chaos.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or God of mischief. But inside of the Marvel Universe, Captain America is the sort of logical. You know, like, everything is logical. Everything's predictable. Everything that's good is good. Everything that's bad is bad. The consequences seem to follow logically that, like, if. If you do good, good things happen. If you do bad, bad things happen. That's kind of the template that we have in our head about how we think the world should work. So a lot of writers think, well, if I do get the outcome, if I run these ads, I'll sell books. If I do this thing, I'll sell. But I. The, The. The logical follow of doing work is that it will naturally be the consequence of something sort of like one plus one equals two. We think that that math is in charge of the publishing industry, that it's somehow, well, good books will sell, or if I write more books, I will sell, or if I write to market, I will sell. And Captain America is not in charge of the publishing industry. Loki is in charge. So sometimes the things that you do have no impact whatsoever, and sometimes they have all the impact. And sometimes you change covers and it makes the book sell, and sometimes you change covers and it doesn't. And I think part of what I'm trying to say in this Loki is in chart is not about the future. Right. It's not to say we should all be very afraid because Loki's in charge, and Loki's in charge of the future. No, no, no. The question is if I am looking backwards and I'm trying to evaluate what I have done, and I have come to the end of my evaluation, and I can't find a reason why it's not happening. So, like, I'm three. Three months past the launch, and the books didn't sell the way I wanted them to sell. And my tendency in internally is to say, well, the rules of the publishing industry are logical, and therefore there must be a logical reason, a logical cause for why this didn't happen that I change and then next time I will sell better. Etc. And sometimes the answer is literally Loki's in charge. We don't know what happened. It's not worth trying to figure it out is essentially what I'm saying, right? Like, yes, there's a reason somewhere, but it's not worth spending your time trying to figure it out or trying to iterate when the highest level of chance that you have at better results is starting a new thing thing, right? So like writing a new book, starting a new launch, doing a new series. Not that it's always the answer isn't always start a new series, but it might be do the next book in the series you're not enough books in. But so many of us are trying to be so precious with each individual action that we take and figure out what it was that didn't work. As though somehow there's this very easy to find causal reason. A one to one, like one plus one equals one reason. And so often what I want people to do is just look backwards and be like, okay, well, sometimes the answer is Loki's in charge and I need to not worry too much about it because I'm wasting my time trying to find the reason when sometimes the reason is there are too many people publishing that day or, you know, you didn't happen to take off on TikTok, and that is not something you can control and, and do anything about. So a lot of it is just what's in our control and what's not. And trying to be more comfortable with things being out of our control. So I use Loki because we all laugh when I say it, right? It's like, Loki's in charge. Loki. Stupid Loki, right? Like, let's whatever. But it makes the cause be something that feels enough out of your control in a safe way way instead of it feeling like, well, no, I have to figure this out and fix it, right? It's. It's sort of meant to be a tongue and cheek way of being like, okay, Kevin, let's just move on. Like, you're gonna be okay. Let's.

[A]

Who is this Kevin you keep talking to?

[B]

Kevin is like the John Doe, right? Like the, the sort of John Doe I use George and Kevin and Carol sort of interchangeably when I'm like talking to a random writer, like, trying to say, all right, let's go. Like it's okay to move on. Yeah, I thought.

[A]

I just.

[B]

No individual Kevin. No. Needs to be wor. No.

[A]

And everyone. Becca does know my name. It's. It's not Kevin.

[B]

This is not Kevin.

[A]

Yeah. So I think this is interesting, and I wonder whether you feel that there is more chaos or right now, as in, we've always had chaos in the publishing industry, but it does seem like there is a lot of transition right now. There are things that were working. Working in inverted commas, even kind of last month, and now people are like, oh, no, this is. This is bad. Or. Or do you think there is more chaos or is it just the same as normal?

[B]

Yeah, I would say if there is more chaos, because I. I sort of go back and forth on whether there is more. Usually in transition periods, there is a little bit more. Right. Like, if you think about when you live in your house on a normal day, there's very little unpredictable stuff that's probably gonna happen, but when you're moving all of a sudden, there's probably more unpredictable stuff that's gonna happen just because the added sort of transition causes more chaos. So I do think it's possible that there's more chaos. What I think is happening is that the unpredictability is becoming more visible than it's ever been before. Because in the past, it feels sort of like the people who were getting the unpredictable results were either not being heard. Heard effectively, because just speaking objectively as a coach, there's always been a high level of unpredictability in this industry. It's just that the people who are teaching are often the ones who are getting whatever result and then saying, oh, this is what should be happening when you do this. And so the. The people who are at the. What I would call, like, that kind of expert level often feel like there's a lot more predictability, and that's not always the case anymore. I think there's a lot of teachers and a lot of speakers and presenters and stuff who are feeling the unpredictability more than maybe they were in the past. And so now we're seeing it a little bit more, like, more visibly. But I don't know that I believe there's any more unpredictability other than the typical transitional stuff of, like, well, that used to work and now it doesn't work anymore. But if you've been in this industry as long as I think some of us have who listen to this show, this happens every time there's a transition like it happened in the transition between, like when Facebook ads slowed down in their effectiveness or changed in effectiveness, it happened when Instagram changed in its effectiveness, it happened when KU first started, it happened in KU2 launch, it happened when, you know, like there's always some transition feeling, but I think there's additionally more transition globally and internationally and nationally than there has been in the past too. So less stability in other places makes it feel more unstable. So I go back and forth about if there's actually less predictability or if we're just more conscious of it, but either way we feel like there is more for sure now.

[A]

Yeah. I was just reflecting as you were talking about the people who, who were teaching, but there's quite a few who've dropped away really. I mean, if you think about Author Nation, the speakers are quite different and new voices come in and teach new things. And I, I'm not going to necessarily pivot into others. So for example, tick tock is always my go to example of I, I'm not going to, I did not pivot into tick tock. I'm not going to. That is not my thing. So there's lots of people who are starting now who are. So I'm like, no, no, you really Maybe should try TikTok. Don't listen to me. You can't have my career in the same way people can't have your career. You can't have, you know, Lee Child always says, you can't have my career. When you're starting out fresh, you almost need to look for different people to follow. I don't know. What do you think about voices to listen to in a transition?

[B]

Yeah. Because ultimately, and this is why I said like, I think it might feel like there's more care. Chaos is because we do get a lot of security out of people who are starting something new. Right. Because they have a lot of brash excitement and they believe that things are possible. And it's almost like a wave that crests on the shore. Like in order for us to maintain that level of progress as an industry, we need new people to always be coming up over the old wave and coming up over the old wave. Yeah, the old wave might go out and then come, come back again. Like there may be, I need to retreat a little bit and kind of regroup and then come back with new enthusiasm. Sure. But in a creative industry, because so much of creativity happens when I am more secure. What we always need is to listen to people who make us feel like there is a security about what could be happening. Like what could be possible because. Because the reality of the industry on just a one to one basis is not something that most of us need to be worried about because it is so unpredictable. Who will and who won't, what will take off and what won't, what will work and what won't. It's so unpredictable. All you need to do is just have the resilience to keep going. And I think we need that new wave to come up every once in a while to remind us all and fill us all with this renewed hope of like, oh my gosh, think about what might happen if. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so I am excited to. Whenever I hear that there's new people teaching new stuff, I get excited about it because I think authors need to have that excitement and enthusiasm and this is what's possible. And then they obviously were both learners. Like, then they learn something new and it opens their mind, it helps them get through transitions, it creates more stability, get more engaged, we have more fun. Like, ultimately, that is the way we thrive long term, that we have a sustainable career.

[A]

Yeah. And I guess, obviously, as you said, we're both learners and there are things that we have changed, both of us in, in our businesses. And although I've been selling direct since I started in 2008, I only adopted Kickstarter a couple of years ago. And now, you know, now I love it. I absolutely love it. It's a really important part of my business. Business financially, but also creatively. Like, the things I create in my Kickstarters are so important to me in so many ways. And you are doing a Kickstarter? Yeah, yeah. So tell us a bit more about that and why you are doing that. You've done them before too, haven't you? But why is it important to you to do Kickstarters?

[B]

So I love being able to bring a new book to people. And like I usually do a book and a tool, right? Like some kind of. Kind of workshop or card deck or like something that I will do in addition to the nonfiction book. There's something that happens around when we infuse new learning into like a community. And specifically my community is very learner focused in the sort of the better, faster quit book kind of arena. And the thing I'm doing this time is. So my first book that I sort of took off with was called Dear Writer your Need to Quit. And I've become the quit cast and quit books and quit coach and all those things. And so the new book is called Dear Writer. You still need to quit. And it is basically the same sort of structure as the first book in terms of one essay will be aimed at this group and the next essay will be aimed at a different group and the next essay. And I think I had 18 or 19 chapters in the first book. This one has 40 so far. And yeah, and there are probably more coming apart from that. That. But what I'm trying to do with this book is sort of give us this almost like these aren't the droids you're looking for moment. Right. Like, it's okay to just let that go. It's okay to not worry about that. It's okay to look away and try to remind people, like, what is it that's really important about maintaining forward motion in your career? And what are the rules that you actually need to live by? And what are the forms and functions you actually need to live by? And what can you release and just stop worrying about. And so am I. Much of what I want to get across to authors is like, we worry about so much that is just. You can't know any of these things. Like, you can't know whether a book is going to take off until after you've released it. And so the more we worry that it won't happen, instead of encouraging ourselves to practice the resilience that will allow us to see incremental growth as beneficial and also prepare us for larger growth when it happens. And to know that incremental growth does. Doesn't preclude you from having larger growth in the future. So sort of things like, here's how we might misunderstand what a career trajectory looks like. And we worry so much about following a particular pattern, not realizing that there are 300 other patterns that can also lead to the success that we want. And so I think a lot of what I'm trying to do is just remind us, like, these aren't the droids you're looking for. It's fine to ignore this stuff. Let's refocus on what's really, really important.

[A]

It's interesting though, you said about we don't know whether a book will take off. I just got to be realistic. I mean, I've written like nearly 50 books and I've never had a book like, take off in the sense of, like, traditional media going, wow, this is amazing, or number one on Amazon or so just to encourage people, you can have a career just selling, like, some books every month.

[B]

A fulfilling career. And not just a fulfilling career, but it doesn't mean that you're not successful. Right. I think we all look at these sort of success patterns of like, okay, this person went from selling 10 books a month to selling 10,000 books a month. And now we're like, well, if I don't hit that trajectory, that somehow there's something wrong with me. As opposed to. To. Well, yeah, but that's just one story. Like, look at all the. Like, Joe is a great example. Joanna is a great example. Like, you build over time or you get a little bit more each. Each release and then you have a thing that. Where you have a slump where you don't sell as much. Sometimes when people go into those slumps, they're like, oh, well, my career is over. Like, I stopped growing. So clearly there's a problem now where I would say, but if you look, look from a big picture at it, this is probably just a downturn that needs a creative upturn rather than this is the end. Like, I'm never going to do be able to do this again. And we just make so many pronouncements about things, or we're afraid of those pronouncements in our heads because we don't actually know what it is that could be hap. Like, we're too ready to be afraid that it's all going to be over over. As opposed to, you know what, I can weather this. Like, so if I have to get a second job for a while so that I can continue to write, I don't see that as a failure. I see that as resilience and progress and me being creative and still being able to write, like, I just want to never stop writing. But we have these templates in our head that we get so attached to. And I just want us to remember that resilience is important. And there's more that could be possible than you would ever think because of what we're afraid might happen. And that fear keeps us really, like, narrowed and tight and stressed. And the hope really makes us more expansive and feel better in our skin.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to all the 45 plus different things I need to quit. But obviously we're not going to go through everything now. But just maybe give us one thing that is a really common thing that we haven't talked about. That. That we should be quitting.

[B]

Yes. Quit going to book signings. This is my. Like, I have a little bit of a soapbox about this. Like, by all means, go to book signings if what you want is to network. Like, if your goal is networking or if your goal is Like I'll take whatever new readers I can get and I'm not going to try to break even, let's say, on book signings because I think we. Book signings are something that went through a phase in like 20, 14, 15, 16 as well where we had a similar fervor about like let's start 55 book signings and everybody's going to do one and this is going to be it for me. Like I'm investing four or five thousand dollars into this and, and so in order for me to get out what I need, I have to break even because this is a business expense, et cetera. And I'm like, now if you are a mid list or low list author, book signings are either ways for you to connect with the fans you already have. So like seeing it as an investment with the fans and trying to increase your say, longevity of your career by keeping those fans around or it's an opportunity for you to network with other authors. Very rarely is it going to sell enough books at enough volume that it's going to be a good investment of your time and money. And I think a lot of us see, see book signings as something that we have to do in order to grow, but we just don't understand that growth doesn't happen that way. Like demand doesn't. You can't create demand in that way unless demand is already visible in other places. So what I'd rather see people do if it was me is I'd rather see people have much lower price or free books if they're low and mid list authors pay for paperbacks at the book signings and see it as almost like a lead magnet, sample promotional opportunity rather than trying to feel like, well, I have to have, I, you know what I mean? Like I just, I think we, we treat it like an investment when that's not a great business decision for most of us. And I would rather see people do fewer signings or treat them like promotional opportunities and really invest in getting as broad of a reach as you can rather than trying to, to see it as an investment financially like where I'm going to try to make all my money back and then people price their books really high and they don't sell or you know, so anyway, I'm, I'm such a fan of changing mindset.

[A]

Yeah, right. It's interesting though because like I've had quite a few people on recently who, I mean, I think you mean a different, different kind of thing, but people selling at fairs, people selling in person Direct from a store. Store.

[B]

Direct from a store.

[A]

Like from a stall. Sorry, like a market store.

[B]

Oh, a stall. Yeah, yeah. So I'm. I'm a fan of stuff like that. If the person is going into it knowing that this is going to be a very high level of investment for one sale at a time. Right. Or if people really, really love. Like, there are some people out there who adore hand hand selling.

[A]

Hmm.

[B]

But again, I think part of what happens when we look at other people's stories is we have to say, was there already a demand for their books that they're responding to? Like, is there already a high level of demand for those books and they're essentially filling a demand that already exists? Or if I think about like a fair or a farmer's market or a craft fair or something where there is no one else selling books there. So I become the. I'm taking advantage of the blue water. That's a totally different thing for me from attending a book signing where there's 500 authors and I'm going there assuming that if I can somehow compete with those top sellers, that I'm going to be able to sell all of my books at full price. You know what I mean? Like, that. That to me is. And I see people signing up for four and five and. And six and seven signings a year, and I'm like, or we don't disrupt our travel, we spend more time. And again, unless you love it, because this. My caveat for things is always, if you love hand selling, please do it. If you love festivals, please do it. If you love signings, please do it. But if you're feeling pressured to do it because everybody's doing it, please question the premise.

[A]

This.

[B]

Yeah, because they are not. Like, not everyone has the same experience. Again, Loki's in charge, right? Like, it doesn't react the same when.

[A]

Everyone does it, or it's just not your thing. I mean, I. I find it interesting talking to people who really enjoy hand selling because it's not at all what I enjoy. Or. Well, I don't really know because I've only kind of done it once and hated it. And so I. I have a bit of a soapbox too, and I thought I'd put this.

[B]

Yeah, go ahead.

[A]

Quit hating on other authors and judging other independent authors, particularly because as independent authors, we're responsible for our creative choices, our business choices. We are independent. And at the moment there's. There just seems to be a lot more hating on other authors and judging other authors because of the AI Stuff. In a major way. So I don't know. What do you think about. About this?

[B]

Yeah, I. I feel like anytime there is a level of judgment with other people, there's always a fear at the core of it. Right. So if I find myself having really big responses to something, like I see people doing a certain thing online, whatever the thing is, and I get really up in my feelings about it, There are two options there. One is I can do the work internally to try to figure out what that emotion is and walk from the keyboard and let myself calm down first and then come back and have a conversation that is less emotional about it. Right. Because I think the problem usually with people who are hating with other people online, like, they're getting very up in their feelings, is that they're not pausing at all when they feel frustrated or angry or judgmental. They're just going along with the dysregulation and they don't understand. So, like, if you think about Joanna and I in a room with 300 people, let's just say we're at, like, Author Nation. We're all in a room with 300 people in that room. If. If we're all listening to someone talk and we're all feeling very safe and secure and excited, and we're having all these positive feelings, but there are people in the room who see danger somewhere. Like, let's say there's a bear in the back corner of the room room, and most of the room can't see it. And there's like 10 people in the back of the room who can see it. Then they can actually feel feelings that are big enough that they can dysregulate the rest of the room, no matter what's happening from the front. And we won't even realize that it's happening until we all turn and look at the bear and see it and then run away. Right? Or somebody, whatever. So we. We mass dysregulate each other other when we're online and we don't realize that the exact same thing is happening. That there we all feel like, oh, there's this. I'm feeling a lot of fear or frustration, and I'm going to the computer because I feel dysregulated. I want to express it. And usually we express emotion, and then somehow we get regulated by that. But because when we dysregulate other people, they dysregulate us. It's like this big dysregulation fest that ends up happening when we're all getting on. Like, let's say threads and, and. And complaining about something. Right? The goal in complaining one person to one person is that somebody listens, somebody talks, and then we regulate each other by coming to a conclusion of how we can handle the situation. What we don't realize is if I feel really big feelings, the goal of me feeling those big feelings is to regulate the situation for me to feel secure again. But when we take it to the Internet or we start complaining or yelling or getting frustrated or whatever, we're looking for that loop close of that validation of those feelings. But then we end up just mass dysregulating each other. But the problem is, because we're not 300 people in a room. We're each in our own room with our own computer. There is no loop closed to that dysregulation pattern. It just keeps growing and growing and growing and getting worse and worse and worse and. And worse and worse. There's no end to the dysregulation until we get so overwhelmed that we have to walk away from the computer. And the reason I say I would like us to walk away from the computer first and then come back and engage after we have gotten rid of that emotion, rather than communicating in the middle of it, is that you cannot mass regulate people. So I can't say something, for instance, on Facebook threads in a response to a comment chain that has gone sort of off the rails, Everybody that's reading it is disregulated. I can't say something that will regulate all of those people because they want to be disregulated in that moment unless I specifically answer the one thing that they're saying. So I will say the. The judgment also frustrates me, but for a different reason. It frustrates me because it's not helpful helpful. Like us all getting dysregulated together doesn't actually help solve any of the problems. All it does is make us spend more time on social media or make us spend more time on threads or tick tock or YouTube or whatever. And it takes us away from the thing that could regulate us, which is people actually listening and talking and coming to a conclusion and having a conversation. I'd rather see us call a friend friend than comment on threads because then at least we could have a conversation that's relational and we could get somewhere productive. But I just. I wish people could understand. You cannot mass regulate people. You can only mass dysregulate them. So the computer and the phone are just an excuse for waiting to be dysregulated at Some point. And I just, I, I wish more people would think about the fact that, that like it's not helping the way we think it's helping.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To engage with that. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So the answer is to walk away rather than.

[B]

I, I would rather have us walk away first. Yes.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I, I do that. I just see so much misinformation and you know how it is. And I guess we started off by sort of the saying no more. And yeah, in general, I do just walk away way. I really just take myself out of it rather than, as you say, try trying to persuade people on social media of anything is just kind of pointless. So, yeah, as you also mentioned, we're at a time in history where there's a lot, a lot going on, let's say. Yeah.

[B]

Trademark.

[A]

Yeah, there's so much going on. And so as you say, like if you're het up around whatever you are head up around politically or wars and all kinds of things to get angry about and then you see another comment about something in the author world, I suppose that just, it's all just very triggering at the moment. So it would be good if, if we all walked away a lot more. It is hard. It is hard though, isn't it? Is that maybe. Is that how it feels at the moment that Loki is in charge of the world, not just market?

[B]

It does. It feels so unpredictable and chaotic and, and, but, but so much of that again is because we're not all in a room together. We're each in our own rooms at the computer and, and the computer. If you think about what, what benefits digital spaces is actually benefits. All digital spaces for us to be dysregulated, not for us to be regulated. Because regulated people don't need to spend time on social media. They can be like, oh, look at this cool thing and oh, puppy. And then they go about the, their life. Right. But when I'm disregulated, I have to spend more time there because I'm trying to close whatever loop it is. So it's either the boredom loop that I'm trying to close that will never close because it keeps just opening more boredom loops one after another, or it's an anger loop or a sadness loop or a fear loop. And the Internet's not going to close any of those for us. All it's going to do is keep them open because it begins benefits when our loops are open. This is why I end all of my quick casts now with. Shut the computer down, turn off the phone, go open the manuscript because that has a higher percentage of ability to regulate you than anything you're going to read on Facebook or threads or see on TikTok or whatever. Including the positive stuff. Because the positive stuff is just anesthetic to keep you engaged until the negative stuff catches you, and then it can suck you. You in. So, like, on some level, and I know I'm sounding very negative to social media, some of it's really fine and beneficial, but the. The number one, like, difference in. Number one difference in people who easily and quickly are productive versus the people who aren't, almost 201 is how much time they allow themselves to spend on social media and whether or not they reach for their phone first thing in the morning or whether they don't. And it's. It's so hard sometimes to convince people that it's actually dangerous enough to be there, that we should really be avoiding it as much as possible. And at the same time, I understand we're all adults. We're going to make our own choices, but realistically, I think a lot of our productivity woes, our selling woes, et cetera, could be helped if we would just not reach for the phone first thing in the morning.

[A]

Yeah. And I find going for a walk helps. Getting outside, like, oh, there's a world out there. The world is not in the screen. The world is actually a lot bigger.

[B]

Yep, yep.

[A]

I find that helps. Okay, so we're almost out of time, but obviously. So the campaign is, dear Writer, you still need to quit. But what don't we need to quit? What can we keep doing?

[B]

So we do not need to quit writing.

[A]

Yay.

[B]

And that's the key for me, I think no matter what happens on any level, no matter how bad the predictions get about whatever's gonna change, there is no need for us to quit writing or to believe that writing is gonna be taken away from us. Because even if the capacity to sell in one way is taken away, there's always going to be other ways. And I feel like we need to just remind ourselves, almost like that kind of motto or catchphrase that you repeat to yourself every time it comes up. Like the jingles right on. On advertisements that. Like, there's this save more money at Menards or save big money at menards thing that comes up a lot in the Midwest because we see Menard signs everywhere. And I always think, save big money at Bernards. Like, I sing it in my head. I wish that people would sing in their head. Open the manuscript. Open the manuscript. Open the manuscript. Just over and over and over again. Because so much of our fear can be combated by stopping ourselves from thinking about what might happen and just continuing to practice the opening of the manuscript and the disappearing into the writing and the enjoyment of the writing as often as possible. I just didn't. No matter how, how bad the predictions are, I still don't believe that there's a reason for us to stop hoping for writing and wanting to write more. And on that note, I just don't believe there's a reason for us not to be hopeful about the future. We might go through some hard stuff, we might have change. So learn how to be resilient, learn how to pivot, learn how to be flexible. There's an element of learning that no matter what you think is being taken away, there's always a possibility ability that we could switch back like that things could transition backwards. Right? So, like that there's always. And I'm. I don't mean to come off saying don't be worried about, you know, like anything. I'm not saying don't be worried about anything. I'm specifically talking about in the publishing industry. I think we, we think about what might happen and we get so closed off about the future and like there's going to be so much fear and end and change and closure. So many of us don't realize that we will be good at change when it happens. We're not going to be good at change now, but we can be more flexible and more hopeful about the future if we look for things to be flexible and hopeful about instead of focusing on the things that we're not. So there's no reason for us to quit being hopeful about the future. There's no reason for us to quit right writing. And if we can just focus on that, there's always some more, more interesting thing. I could be writing some manuscript that I could open, something that I could hope for. There's always possibility in the future. There's always possibility of selling, there's always possibility of new readers. There's always going to be possibility. So if we can just focus on that, it's going to be a lot easier to get through the hard things if we don't lose our hope about the future.

[A]

Absolutely brilliant. So where can people find you and your books and the Kickstarter online?

[B]

Betterfasteracademy.com Links will have everything. So all one word, all lowercase. And then betterfasteracademy.com links is the one stop shop for Becca.

[A]

Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time. Becca. That was great.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

So I hope you enjoyed the discussion with Becca and tell me what you think. Is Loki in charge of the publishing industry and has it always been that way? How can we deal with that and keep writing and keep trying to reach readers despite the uncertainty? Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes or on the YouTube channel. You can also email me joannathecreativepenn.com Let me know what you think or send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or church churchyard. Next week I'm talking to Don King about creating while caring. It is a really personal interview and I know many of you will find it useful as well as moving. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show notes at the creative pen.com for and you can get your free Author [e-mail] Blueprint if you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X hecreative pen or on Instagram and Facebook fpenauthor Happy writing and I'll see you next time.