Pia Lishter (24:11)

Pia Lishter is an award winning creative director and coach, founder of the collective studio and the author of welcome to the Creative Club. Make life your biggest art project. So welcome to the show, Pia.

Pia Lishter (24:26)

Thanks so much Jo for having me on. Excited to be here?

Pia Lishter (24:29)

Oh yes. So first up, tell us a bit more about you and what is a Creative club director anyway? And what part does writing play in your business?

Pia Lishter (24:39)

Wow. Let me start. I'll start with a creative director. A creative director typically can work in different creative fields such as advertising, film, fashion, you name it. But I came from the world of marketing and advertising. So in that landscape, a creative director oversees the creative vision for different brands and different projects in the studio and marries artistic expression with commercial objectives. Also manages a creative team and kind of blends magic and logic, strategy and creativity to create an impact in our clients lives and the lives of their consumers.

Pia Lishter (25:21)

That sounds pretty cool.

Pia Lishter (25:24)

It was pretty cool. It was good. It was really good. It's where I spent well over a decade. So it was very rewarding work. And I mean as a creative director, at least in that world you can have either like a design background or a writing background. So I was like the copywriting background.

Pia Lishter (25:40)

Okay. And then. And so what is it you do now then?

Pia Lishter (25:43)

Now I work as a creative partner working with. Well, I think the simplest way of putting it is I help people create. I help people create brands, businesses, dreams, art, what they're being called to create. People who do things differently, to make a difference. Those are generally the people I work with. So what that means is, or I call it sort of a creative midwife. So I help people at different sticky junctures in life. Often when we're at this creative evolution point, when what we used to create was successful, wonderful, whether it's a business or creative venture. But it's just not floating our boat anymore. It's. We're just being called to do something, something different. And that can be both thrilling and terrifying at the same time because it's like what is going to come next? What is my next becoming? What is my next creation? And I often partner with creatives that are, that are at that point. So yeah, and then what's great about it is I have different tools at my disposal. I'm also a certified coach, so I bring together coaching and creativity in the form of narrative development, storytelling, brand strategy, to actually help bring whatever it is they're looking to bring to life into the world. So I get to combine both of those things, depending on where people are in their journey.

Pia Lishter (27:10)

So why this book then? Because it sounds like you've got lots of different strands to your business and your creative life. Why write this book? What part does that play?

Pia Lishter (27:20)

It's a fantastic question. When I left my agency, the last agency I worked for, I think it was 20, 20, 21, my mother passed away suddenly, and she gave me the passing gift of courage and a reminder that this life is finite. And we just got one, as far as we know. And I had been flirting with the idea of channeling my creativity into building my own business for a long time, but I was comfortable. Things were good. Good enough, good enough. So I think I was scared too, of, like, what would that next thing be and what would I even do and how would it. How would I survive and what does it look like? And that kind of kept me stuck. Speaking of creative evolutions. So when she passed, it was like, hey, what am I waiting for? If it's not now, then when? And I left that job and I launched Collective Studio. And that was an epiphany moment for me. Like, wow, I don't just get to create other people's dreams, I get to create my own. And then from there, it was just a wild and wonderful and weird journey into entrepreneurship. And then the second epiphany with the book came from getting a call from my hybrid publisher, the founder, also great salesman and great writer, but asked, have you ever thought of writing a book? And. And yeah, like, I believe everyone has a book in them, but I definitely have thought about it. And I had a conversation with him and he shared a stat like 90 something percent of people that say, no now to writing a book will actually never write that book, because if not now, when? And so I had my like, second big light bulb moment of wow. I don't only get to channel my creativity into commercial endeavors, I actually get to channel it just to make art, to make things, to make a. To write a book that feels important or meaningful to me. And a whole new path opened up to me. So that's what led me to write the book. And I'm really glad I did. It was a really transformative process. It took me places I never thought I would go. I couldn't even imagine imagined going. That wasn't necessarily the intention, but it. It was really? Definitely a growth opportunity and still continues to be.

Pia Lishter (29:50)

Yes, because it's definitely, I guess, a combination of self help and memoir. And I've also written a memoir. And it is also.

Joanna Penn (29:59)

It was also one of, I guess, the.

Pia Lishter (30:01)

The hardest books that I've written. And transformative, as you say, for people who feel like they do want to write something so personal, but they're holding back because it is work in many ways, and it's a journey. And as you say, transformative. How can you encourage people to write that book? Like, how can they get over the fear of everything that could happen because of it, both internally and externally?

Pia Lishter (30:32)

Well, asking a really powerful question is, what happens if I don't write it? What does life look like? What then? What happens if I don't write it today or in a year or three years? What happens if I don't? It could be writing a book, and it could also just be doing that thing that's really calling you. Then what? Then you keep doing exactly what you're doing. And at some point, the desire to create that book, to write that book, to create that whatever that thing venture might be, become stronger than the fear. And that would be one thing. The second thing is remembering that you don't have to do it alone. I think what held me back was this thought, this myth of the lone genius writer in a cabin in the woods on tapping, you know, creating it all in their typewriter, and it's just all of the words just flowing out. And I thought, oh my gosh, I don't know if I'm going to be able to just do that, like just spit out a book. And it turns out just like creativity is collaboration, I didn't have to. They're wonderful editors and people along the way that help us create a book, create anything that we. We don't have to do it alone. And we often don't do it it alone. So there's that. And then the third thing that helped me at least was remembering that we all have a hidden expiration date. Nothing's guaranteed. So we got this one life. We might as well live it in the way that feels most fulfilling and whatever makes you feel most alive. And often what makes at least me feel most alive is also a little frightening, but thrilling. And I feel like, gosh, I'm doing it, I'm here, I'm living this thing. And that feels really important. So those are three potential motivators for starting to write something deeply personal or vulnerable to you.

Pia Lishter (32:35)

And I guess another reason is kind of Taking control of things, looking back and kind of taking control of the narrative. As you say, you work with people in the sort of narrative coaching side. And in the book there was a line that said, I used to think life was happening to me. And I feel like a lot of people feel that right now. There's some big political things going on, big historical things. There's AI going on. It feels like history is happening to us. So if people are feeling that, how can they take control and not just let life happen?

Pia Lishter (33:11)

Well, it's remembering that we're always at choice. Even when it might not feel like we have a choice in the direction of our lives. We do. We get to choose. We get to choose what we want to do next at every point. And I think that's easy to forget in the overwhelm of information, in the current political climate and all of the really fast paced changes that are occurring in the world. It can feel really overwhelming. And I think just remembering that you get to choose, you also get to choose to not listen to the news in the morning if that feels like sensory overload or too much. And you get to choose to pick up a pen and you get to choose how you want to direct your next scene. You, you, you get to decide. And I don't know, for me that feels like creative agency, that feels like creative power. Knowing that you are creating your experience, that you are an active protagonist, main player in this game called life. And I think taking some kind of action first, getting clear on, on what it is that you might really want to do, and that can be something small or large. Right. And then actually taking action to make it real is a way of creating evidence for yourself. Like, yeah, I get to choose. I can take a day off of work tomorrow and go finally see that art exhibit and eat that cardamom bun I've been dying to eat. And I can do these things and that can feel like beautiful pockets of freedom. It's just taste. And I think the more that we practice that, that creative director of our lives muscle, the stronger it gets.

Pia Lishter (34:55)

Yes. Because as you say, you can do small things. It doesn't have to be change everything. And I do actually want to come back because you said earlier about this sort of question, what is my next becoming? And here. And then you just said, you need to get clear on what you want to do. But these are really, really big questions. So I recently turned 50, one of those moments like everyone has. And you know, I've been a writer now for nearly 20 years and this Sort of what is my next becoming is something that I've been thinking about and I know people listening because the way the author life and the author industry is really changing. Like, what is the next becoming? How do we tap into that question? How do we explore that question?

Pia Lishter (35:40)

Well, I think we get closer to what feels like fun. Like sometimes it can. These questions can feel so big and it feels weighty and meaty and important and yes, of course they are. But also we get to move towards what feels really fun. Like what. What lights us up and it could be anything. And I feel like they're insights into our own becoming within that, within the things that we gravitate towards that makes it make us feel alive or make us feel joyful. And it can be in the small and big. But just getting curious about what really feels like fun. When was the last time you really had fun making something, doing something, and you know, is there a red thread? Is there a pattern that you might be able to notice? I feel like there's something in that. And for me personally, recently I've been having a lot of fun working. There was like synchronicity. I started working with someone who actually read the book, who. We became friends, who's a fantastic musician and producer and we decided to take the poems out of. From my book and create a spoken word album. And he's creating tracks for each poem and that feels like so much fun. And I don't know about. Maybe the next becoming is just a allowing myself to create what is lighting me up and what makes me smile and what feels good, what feels warm. It's like, ooh, it might not make the Billboard top hundred list, but it's really great to be able to co create with someone who can take your work in a completely different, correction, sorry, direction. And the process of doing it makes it into something else. Like the poems now become something else. So I don't know, it's just a small example of what feels like fun. And it was a nice reminder that, yeah, move towards that. That feels fulfilling. And then let's figure out what the next thing might feel like instead of sort of this big definitive answer, like, what will the next 50 years of my life look like? I think those. We are fluid, changeable beings and things we will change. Luckily, that's the beauty. And so. So maybe it's just reconnecting to what feels joyful right now can be the first step. And I'm also turning 50 next month, so I feel you.

Joanna Penn (38:13)

Ah, yeah.

Pia Lishter (38:14)

Well, there we go. Well, I Guess I find the word fun quite difficult, I must say. I think it's my upbringing, but there are things that I enjoy. But it's interesting with writing. Writing. There's this. I don't know if you've heard of type one fun and type two fun. Have you heard of this?

Pia Lishter (38:29)

No. Tell me, please.

Pia Lishter (38:30)

Okay, so type one fun is like, you say, it's the kind of joyful. You know, like having a Dr. With friends. You're having a dance. It's. It's fun. Type 2 fun is you do something that might be pretty painful at the time. Like, I walk these pilgrimages. And maybe at the time, it's not what you call fun, but you look back and go, yes, that was worth doing. That's like type two fun. And you smile as you remember it. But it was hard. And I feel like most writing books is type 2 fun. It is not necessarily a joyful process. Was writing this book like. Like a fun thing?

Pia Lishter (39:06)

Well, I. Before I answer that, I just want to point something out. I think what I'm hearing you say is fulfillment. Because what feels fulfilling doesn't always feel fun at the time. And I really agree in align with that. We could use the word joyful too. Whatever word resonates most. But fulfilling, what feels like fulfillment is important because that means it's connected to something that has really deep meaning for you, whether it's your values or what feels like your purpose. Purpose that you're actually living and expressing. It feels really fulfilling when you're living in alignment with what you value most. So. So the book was definitely fulfilling. There were pockets of fun, but they were pockets. It was also challenging, definitely, but it felt really fulfilling. It felt like, yes, this is. This is exactly where I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to be doing. It just. Just felt that way. And that kept me going. And I think that keeps. That keeps us going when we're doing any kind of creative project that requires a long commitment. It's when it's connected to our big fat why or what feels fulfilling or what has meaning. And I think it's really important to come and to create from that place, because it's our light in the dark. It's like those moments where you're like, okay, I'm done here. It kept me going, going, you know, a reminder of why I was doing this in the first place.

Pia Lishter (40:35)

And there's another challenge in the book. It's a provocative question that will trigger all the workaholics listening. You say, what if My creative genius and yours lives on the other side of rest. And I read this and I was like, rest? Who do you think we are? So why is rest so hard for us and yet so necessary for creativity?

Pia Lishter (41:01)

I think at least in Western culture, we're geared to connect and believe that our value is based on what we produce. And hard work and work ethic is really prioritized. It's just something that's very important culturally. Like you gotta work hard and blood, sweat and tears and give it everything you got and that there's meaning in that. And I'm not saying there's nothing. There's, there's space in place for passionate focused work, but there's also room and it's very important for, for rest and ease. There's a place for doing and there's a place where we get to also be because we are human beings and there are a lot of insights to be discovered and dots that connect and eureka moments to be had in this, this daydreamy, restful, ease filled, ease filled place where we're, we're not so focused on a task or getting something done. And neuroscience shows that this is also how our, our brain functions. We have the default mode network, which also called our imagination network, which is really closely or correlated at least with creativity. It's the thinking that happens when we're not consciously thinking and the dots that connect in those moments, the illumination that happens when we're just allowing things to marinate and just be and process kind of percolating like coffee. And it's really, really important for our creativity and for ideas to be able to have that time as well. So it's not an either or both of default mode network and the control neural network both work together. So creativity also requires that analytical mind like the research and evaluation. But incubation and illumination are equally important. Yet in our society or culture we tend to prioritize that which can be quantified. You know that you said well this, I have done this amount of research, so therefore I've been productive. And what if productivity was also based on allowing ideas to bubble to the surface and emerge that that's just as valuable as focused task based activity. And just to say I'm a recovering speed queen, I grew up in New York City, so I'm not a Zen Buddha person. I am practicing, I am practicing slowing down. And I'm finding that when I do, when I catch myself, when I'm rushing for no reason or when I'm over doing the doing, there's a wealth of information and insight that emerges when I just give things space and sometimes nothing emerges. But I feel my energy shift and different and then I show up to the work differently because it's dangerous to start getting into the sort of equation of well, I'll rest so that I can be more productive. No, that's not what I'm saying. Because we can get into that way of thinking. It's just the same way of thinking applied to rest. So no, not necessarily. But I find it incredibly important for the creative process and also just that energy of being alive. We also get to just be and our just being there's value in us just being who we are. Might sound sound counter cultural, but that's what I believe.

Pia Lishter (44:55)

Yeah, I. I like the term active rest obviously because I. I find that exhaustion is when I'm kind of watching Netflix or whatever. And that doesn't help my creative. Well, it probably does in some level. It helps my creative side because there's a lot of story, there's a lot of storytelling in. In great tv. But I walk a lot, get outside and go for really long walks and I find. Find that helps like it. It's the resting the brain kind of thing rather than. I don't want people to think that we just mean rest means lying on the sofa or like going to bed. Although sometimes that is a good thing. But also for me, I guess the filling the creative well which for me involves travel and reading and all of that kind of thing. What kinds of things do you include in. In rest?

Pia Lishter (45:44)

I love that you point. You're pointing that out. Jo. There's this wonderful article and I can't remember her name. We can put it in the show not writes about seven different types of rest because often we just equate rest with laying on the couch. And it's not, you know, they're all different ways that we can rest and regenerate. Some of them could even be like light socials and regenerate through relationships. It really depends on the person, on the individual. What makes you feel refueled and recharged. I do feel that for most of us they're daydreaming and just allowing just being is important part of the rest. Like the rest portfolio, if you will. But for me, to answer your question, rest. Rest looks like meditation, movement and believe it or not, in a way journaling feels like just free writing feels restful to me in. In the sense of I'm just allowing thoughts to kind of pour out and just kind of be rather than trying to write coherently or make sense or you know, add value or whatever the words are, that's really helpful. And movement also, even though I'm not resting, just moving creates a different space for ideas to bubble up. I often get like strange thoughts. Good, good, strange thoughts when I'm moving my body. Also while I'm meditating, even though I'm able to see the thoughts that are passing by, like, oh, interesting. So I think it's about finding what feels good to you, but it's about also honoring that part of you that is not doing and working to produce something all the time. There's a place for that, but there's also a place for seven different types of rest. We can call it that.

Pia Lishter (47:36)

Yes, indeed. And it's interesting because there are some people in the writing community who say, oh, you must write every day. And I always say, no, I don't write every day. I'm a full time author, entrepreneur. But I don't write every day. I call myself a binge writer. So I do the book and then I do the project and then I launch the book and then I'm right, like right now as we're recording this, I am in launch phase for my book Death Valley.

Joanna Penn (48:02)

I'm not writing.

Pia Lishter (48:02)

I'm in the sort of restful, kind of exhausted, kind of like, oh my goodness, I'm never going to have another idea again. But even this morning I actually felt a little twitch. I felt that twitch of interest in other things. And that's when I start going, ah, okay, maybe my brain is getting ready again. So yeah, this kind of going in and out, I guess of the output phase. Input phase, output phase, rest phase, I guess.

Pia Lishter (48:31)

Yeah, cycles, just like seasons, we're cyclical, you know, and things have cycles. And I can really relate with, you know, after I wrote the book in December, now I'm still in, in launch mode. Launch mode lasts a year at least, which is interesting to me. But what's great is it's activating different aspects of my creativity. So it feels like there are different parts of my creativity that I'm applying in the launch phase. And I think that's, that's interesting. And it also gives the book writing creative space, some air, which I also need. So I can relate to that. And I also, you know, self doubt creeps in sometime where it's like, oh, I have a newsletter. It's like, oh, I can't possibly think of. Everything's so busy. What am I going to write about? I don't know. And the minute Doubt creeps in, just like you said. Then the next day it's like, oh, I'm going to write about doubt. This is great. And it's like an idea pops up and it's just trusting that you have a wealth of ideas within you. And when you give it some space and you trust that they're there, they will emerge. Emerge. That I'm sure of.

Pia Lishter (49:41)

Yeah, absolutely. And so coming back right at the beginning, you said about artistic expression and commercial objectives, marrying those two as part of being a creative director. And that sort of brings us to this. You mentioned their launch mode happening for a whole year. So you're now on the commercial side of this book. So tell us about that and about what kinds of things are a challenge around the commercial side of the book.

Pia Lishter (50:09)

Well, as you mentioned earlier, Joe, that writing the memoir was one of the toughest. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I think he said one of the hardest ones.

Pia Lishter (50:18)

Something like that.

Pia Lishter (50:18)

Something like that, yeah. Well, I think marketing this book feels a little bit more vulnerable because I'm sharing very personal stories in service of the reader and the book within it, within its pages. So. So I am learning how to step deeper into the arena and be vulnerable and show up and ask and tell, like, hey, I have a book. This is what I'm doing. And to ask more people to get involved as I go through this launch process, you know, so that feels vulnerable to me and sometimes really challenging. Getting reviews is challenging, especially when it's about my life. So I feel like I'm building really important muscles for my creativity so that I can more freely express myself. Because at the end of the day, people are going to experience my work and myself. However they experience it, that's their experience and they should have whatever experience they want to have. And just like Mel Robbins says, let's them let people have their own experience. It has nothing. It's not mine, it's theirs. And it's that separation that is really important. I think when you are showing up and sharing something that feels vulnerable and powerful and important, but vulnerable. And so I'm learning. I'm learning to stand for my work. And also in this case, it also means standing for my story. And I think that's sort of the extra component component that makes it more like the growth opportunity I mentioned earlier. So it's been a wild ride because even though I come from this world, I've never marketed a book before. So there is just so much to learn and there's actually so many things that you could be doing as an author when you market your book and a lot of investment that you could be, you know, a lot of money you could be spending on it. So to me it's about finding what are the activities or actions that I can take that feel most aligned that would have the biggest impact. Impact for the book. And I'm still sort of figuring out what that looks like. I had a pre sale community that was incredibly important to the success of this book and I'm really, really grateful. I had a pre sale. It allowed me to, to build community and it helped strengthen that asking muscle. Like hey, I haven't, I've written the draft, but I'm not done yet. But I need your help to take the book to print. And reaching out to almost everyone I knew to ask that was a huge muscle builder, you know. So now it's reaching out into the wider world to share the story and to explore different avenues. Next up, Amazon ads. Let's see what happens. You know, reviewers get just finding different avenues and I'm sure you have a lot of insight around this to bring the, the book into the world world.

Pia Lishter (53:19)

Yeah, but I think, I mean, you're exactly right. There are so many things you could do. And I actually love that you've talked about launch mode for a year because in the kind of indie author community that I'm part of, we tend to just move on to the next book where we're not so interested in launching. We're like, right. We're just loving writing so much that we move on to the next book. And I think having that commitment to pushing the book for longer is actually really good. Especially with an evergreen book like this. It's not gonna go out of style, it's not based on the news, it's not political. So you can basically market this forever, which I think is, is great. But you talk there about aligned and impact.

Joanna Penn (54:07)

So. And I mean you.

Pia Lishter (54:09)

Then you mentioned Amazon ads, which is interesting. It'll be interested how you feel that goes.

Joanna Penn (54:15)

But.

Pia Lishter (54:15)

But you are doing a lot of podcast interviews, I think. So how has that gone? How have you been pitch? Obviously you pitched me and I was interested. So is that going well?

Pia Lishter (54:24)

Yay. I'm so glad you were. Yeah, it is going well. It's. Here's the thing, I think creativity can feel very. It can feel. It's uncertain. Right. We don't know what we're going to create when we set out to create anything. And I think podcasts and showing up and sharing, you know, our stories is also uncertain. We haven't, you haven't met me before, I haven't met you. And that's also the beauty because we don't know what we're going to co create together in our conversation and what that could be like. So I find it again, it's that combination of, it's like nerve sided, you know, nervous and exciting and thrilling and terrifying and I feel like as we move further, I like to call it, as Brene Brown says, like the arena, that quote from Roosevelt. As we move further into the arena, it's, it's. We make ourselves more visible and we get bruised and we get ripped and cut and people will see us more and have something to say. But at least we're out there like living, you know, we're doing the things and I think that requires courage and belief in what it is that you're creating and in yourself, I suppose. And also I'm going to say the word you don't like again. Fun. Because it's for me. Sometimes we forget that we also get to make a joke. Like it can be a fun experience. So far this is fun. I'm getting to know you and we're having a conversation and hopefully connecting with your audience and people to share stories. Stories. So I don't know, it feels good. I was on social media for my business very heavily for quite a number of years actually. I was on X, building a pretty large community for a while and then not to get deep into politics, but with certain recent shifts, the social media landscape, it just didn't feel aligned anymore. Even though it was really counterintuitive, like, oh really? I'm going to build my business and keep launching my book without it. Like really? But it felt right, like I. Nope, it's not feeling good for me. It doesn't feel like this is my, my path. And people sold books and built businesses before social media. We can do it again, right? We can keep doing that. So I'm currently exploring that and that's led me to podcasts, that's led me to reach out to build and strengthen community, have more meetings one on one, exploring events, what are different ways that I can meet people and share this story and hear their stories and that, that feels exciting. Even though it's a bit daunting because it's like, oh, I haven't really seen how this is done before. So that's kind of, that's what I mean by a line just to further unfold that. And impact is, well, this feels like impact. Being able to to have a conversation, being able to connect and hopefully with other people. So impact is not only sales or reviews, which are of course very important in the life of a book book, but also human impact reaching people.

Pia Lishter (57:25)

Yeah. And I mean I, I am having fun having a conversation with you.

Joanna Penn (57:30)

Yeah.

Pia Lishter (57:30)

And I, but I think. And you talk about intuition in the book as well. I try and have a intuitive, you know, obviously I prepared and I sent you questions but I feel like the conversation becomes quite intuitive and we get into things as they come up and, and that's what I enjoy as part of being a, being a podcaster. But I did want to come back on the commercial side because I'm obvious making money from my books and many of the listeners are or they want to. And you have a section in the book where you talk about this. You talk about your money wound and also your scarcity script. And I wondered how you think that appears for writers and authors because let's face it, books, you have to sell a lot of books to make decent money. So how can listeners change the script around books and money?

Pia Lishter (58:16)

That's a great question. Well, how we do one thing is how we approach everything. So, so if it's approaching, it's how you approach books and money. It's also life, how you approach money and life generally. And the same speaks to like ideas. Like scarcity is not only. It could be of course scarcity of fun, scarcity of opportunities, but scarcity of ideas. Right. Where am I ever going to get another idea? There's not enough ideas. What am I going to do? And then that sort of becomes a block or could be a self fulfilling prophecy. So how do we start to shift while it's trusting that there is an abundance of ideas within us like we, there's proof of that. Like look, Joe, you've written, did you say 45 books?

Pia Lishter (58:59)

Yeah, something like that.

Pia Lishter (59:01)

Like if that's not abundance, honey, I don't know, I don't know what is. But I find that helpful to, to anchor and into trust and into the process of actually creating. So I didn't create, write the book from a place that I need to. If I don't make this book a financial success, I won't survive like that. I think that's a difficult premise to write a book from given the state of the industry. I wrote the book from a place of I want to share something that has meaning and I want to give it the best chance at succeeding in the world and reaching people. But the scarcity, I don't Know, when it comes to writing books, what I really think about more than money is I think about trusting that you have the book within you, that you have the ideas within you. And then the money part is releasing, hopefully that you're in a position that you can release the expectation of what it needs to deliver financially and just do your best to get it into the world and have different income streams. That's been very important for me and my creativity. So not having my only income stream be. Be this book that would be feel. That would feel very tight for my creativity, that would like start to strangle it, I think. But having multiple ways of creating income and that feels like abundance to me. Like, look, I can do this, it can be that, and it could also be this book. But maybe the income the book generates is not just through sales. There are other doors that it opens that become really interesting and fascinating. But I kind of try to detach from expectation and outcome, however hard that might be. That to me sometimes can feel like scarcity. Like if I don't get this, then what it's more like, well, I trust that I'm going to get the opportunities that I need and that I'm going to be. I'm going to receive what I need and I'm going to do this for also the love of doing it. However utopian or whatever that may sound, it feels important to me and to create creativity. I don't know if I fully answered your question, but that's what comes up for me as you asked it.

Pia Lishter (61:14)

Yeah. And I am absolutely into multiple streams of income and abundance of ideas. And, and in fact, only this last week I learned something new from someone that I'm implementing right now and having another stream of income from that. And it's like new ideas appear every day. I actually love that you said also about people sold books before social media and so they can still now. I think that's so important because people, well, if I can't use this or, you know, I left this platform and went here and there's nobody here and like, what do I do? And I'm like this. There's literally thousands of other ways to sell books other than social media, right?

Pia Lishter (61:52)

Absolutely. And that's where we can use our. Apply our creativity like you are. We are. If you're writing a book, you know you are creative whether you write a book or not. But especially if you're writing a book, then you acknowledge your own creativity. So imagine just applying that in different ways. Like what are different ways I could get this Book into the world. And that's what I'm playing with. And there's some that I might be able to see and others I might not and other ways people might help me see go. Oh, have you thought of that? No, actually. That's really interesting. And I think people come into your life also to show you. And I heard something actually, it was from a tarot reader, full disclosure, but she's wonderful. And she said, said that the affirmation or the thought is allow. Allowing me. Allow me to recognize the opportunities. And that shifted something from me. I really loved it. Talking about scarcity and abundance. Like, allow me to recognize the opportunities. Hey, wait a minute. That means the opportunities are already here. Oh, how cool. That's. That's like game changing for me. Like they're already here here. I just need to recognize them. Because sometimes if we get hooked to what something has to be, has to wear this specific Yves Saint Laurent outfit and if it's not wearing that, then I. It's not the opportunity. And like letting go of what it has to look like or exactly what it has to do or be kind of frees us up to see. Oh my God, look, it's wearing a vintage Dior dress from the 70s and the corner. I never. Wow, look at that opportunity. Because sometimes, sometimes opportunities can come to us in a lot of different shapes and forms, but we need to kind of release the grip a little bit and trust that they're here. It's available to us. We just need to recognize them. So that was something I found very helpful on my journey. So it's like, I don't know what this will be. Let's see, let's see what opportunities I might be able to recognize as I go journey through the process of marketing this book.

Pia Lishter (63:54)

Well, it is a great book. Welcome to the Creative club. So tell us, where can people find you and the book online?

Pia Lishter (64:02)

All the usual places, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, bookshop.org are the three main ones. And I am at Collective Studio. So that's a collective spelled actually in Danish because I currently live in Copenhagen. I lived in London before I moved here and before that, many other countries. So Collective Studio.

Pia Lishter (64:24)

Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Pia. That was great.

Pia Lishter (64:27)

Thank you so much for having me, Jo. It was a wild ride. I really enjoyed it.

Joanna Penn (64:34)

So I hope you found Pier's interview thought provoking. What might be your next becoming and what brave changes might you need to make? Or maybe you just needed to hear the message about rest and how it can help you be more creative in the long run. Let me know what you think of today's episode. Leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. Comment on X at the Creative Pen or email me joannathecreativepen.com Send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Next week I'm talking to Abby Polakoff about what prose writers can learn from poets. We geek out about punctuation and line breaks, and Abby is devastating to hear that many tiktokers seem to think the EM dash is a sign of AI writing. But of course real writers know that the EM dash, as well as other important things of punctuation, are critical parts of the writer's toolbox. It is a fun conversation. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show notes@thecreativepen.com podcast and you can get your free author blueprint@thecreativepen.com blueprint if you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X at the Creative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook. Fpenauthor Happy writing and I'll see you next time.