Make Life Your Biggest Art Project: Pia Leichter On Writing, Creative Courage, And Changing Your Narrative

Summary

Episode Summary: "Make Life Your Biggest Art Project: Pia Leichter On Writing, Creative Courage, And Changing Your Narrative"

In episode 807 of The Creative Penn Podcast, host Joanna Penn engages in a profound conversation with Pia Leichter, an award-winning creative director, coach, and author of Welcome to the Creative Club: Make Life Your Biggest Art Project. Released on May 5, 2025, this episode delves into themes of creative courage, the importance of rest, intuitive book marketing, and the journey of redefining one’s personal and professional narrative.

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Introduction to Pia Leichter and Her Creative Journey

The interview kicks off with Pia introducing herself and explaining the role of a Creative Director. She shares her transition from over a decade in marketing and advertising to founding Collective Studio, where she helps creatives navigate pivotal moments in their artistic and entrepreneurial endeavors.

Pia Leichter:
"A creative director typically can work in different creative fields such as advertising, film, fashion, you name it. But I came from the world of marketing and advertising... I help people create brands, businesses, dreams, art, what they're being called to create."
[24:39]

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Embracing Creative Courage and Personal Transformation

Pia recounts a significant turning point in her life—the sudden passing of her mother in 2021—which propelled her to embrace creative courage and embark on her entrepreneurial path. This personal loss underscored the finite nature of life, motivating Pia to pursue her passion for creativity more authentically.

Pia Leichter:
"When she passed, it was like, hey, what am I waiting for? If it's not now, then when? And I left that job and I launched Collective Studio."
[27:20]

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Overcoming Fear and Taking Control of Your Narrative

A central theme in the conversation is overcoming the fear of vulnerability in creative projects. Pia encourages writers to confront their fears by asking themselves, "What happens if I don't write it?" This introspection helps creatives realize the importance of their projects and the necessity of stepping into the arena despite uncertainties.

Pia Leichter:
"What happens if I don't write it today or in a year or three years? What happens if I don't?"
[30:32]

She emphasizes that creativity often requires collaboration rather than solitary effort, dispelling the myth of the lone genius.

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Navigating the "Next Becoming" and Finding Fulfillment

Discussing the concept of "next becoming," Pia shares insights on evolving creatively, especially significant as she approaches milestone moments like turning 50. She advises reconnecting with what feels fun and joyful, leveraging these feelings to guide future creative endeavors.

Pia Leichter:
"We are fluid, changeable beings and things we will change. Luckily, that's the beauty."
[35:40]

Pia highlights the importance of aligning creative work with personal fulfillment over the pursuit of transient fun, fostering deeper meaningful engagement with one’s projects.

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The Vital Role of Rest in the Creative Process

Addressing the often-overlooked necessity of rest, Pia challenges the Western cultural emphasis on productivity. She explains how rest—whether through meditation, movement, or journaling—fuels creativity by allowing the brain's default mode network to generate and connect ideas organically.

Pia Leichter:
"Neuroscience shows that... the illumination that happens when we're just allowing things to marinate and just be and process kind of percolating like coffee."
[41:01]

She advocates for active rest, such as walking or engaging in light social activities, which can rejuvenate the mind without leading to exhaustion.

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Intuitive Marketing and Embracing Abundance Over Scarcity

The conversation shifts to the commercial aspects of creativity, where Pia discusses intuitive book marketing. She explores overcoming the money wound and shifting from a scarcity mindset to one of abundance. Pia encourages writers to trust in their reservoir of ideas and multiple income streams, reducing reliance on any single project for financial stability.

Pia Leichter:
"Trusting that you have the book within you, that you have the ideas within you... having multiple ways of creating income and that feels like abundance to me."
[58:16]

She shares her strategies for marketing her memoir, Death Valley, focusing on community building, leveraging podcast interviews, and utilizing diverse marketing channels beyond traditional social media.

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Conclusion: Embracing the Creative Journey

Wrapping up the discussion, Pia reiterates the importance of recognizing and embracing opportunities as they arise, often in unexpected forms. She underscores that creative work is not just about the final product but also about the journey and personal growth it fosters.

Pia Leichter:
"Allow me to recognize the opportunities... they're already here. I just need to recognize them."
[61:52]

Joanna Penn closes the episode by encouraging listeners to reflect on their own creative paths, consider the brave changes they might need to make, and embrace the balance between productivity and rest to achieve lasting creative fulfillment.

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Notable Quotes

• Pia Leichter on Creativity and Vulnerability:
  "Creativity is collaboration. We don't have to do it alone."
  [30:32]

• On Resting for Creativity:
  "There's a wealth of information and insight that emerges when I just give things space."
  [44:55]

• On Abundance Mindset:
  "Having multiple ways of creating income... feels like abundance to me."
  [58:16]

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a rich exploration of the intricate balance between creative passion and the practical aspects of bringing artistic projects to life. Pia Leichter’s insights provide valuable guidance for writers and creatives striving to navigate their personal and professional transformations with courage and intentionality.

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For more insights and to listen to the full episode, visit The Creative Penn Podcast.

Transcript

[Joanna Penn]

Welcome to the Creative Penn Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives, I'm Joanna Penn and this is episode number 807 of the podcast and it is Saturday 3rd May 2025. As I record this in today's show, I talk to Pia Lishter about creative courage, different ways to rest, and intuitive book marketing, as well as how you might explore the edges of your creativity to find your next becoming, which I rather like as a phrase. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing Things. Well, Sasha Black has posted her lessons learned from six years writing full time. It is an emotional one and I'm not going to give the spoilers, but I wanted to point out that Sasha started a new pen name just a couple of years ago. Ruby Rowe started writing in a new genre, Sapphic Romantasy, and she has found her voice through writing this genre that she loves and through making that creatively brave choice to bake. Because starting a new pen name is always a brave choice. You might think, well, why would I do all that work? And then nothing happens and people are always saying, oh, you know, should I start a new pen name? Is it worth doing? Isn't it really hard to break out? So I think it's really interesting that Sasha broke out with a new name, Ruby Rowe, and she also started using TikTok and direct sales on Shopify and later TikTok Shop. So what she has done in the last couple of years is almost completely transformed her business from originally focusing on non fiction craft books and some YA fiction and also selling in the more traditional ways, I guess of being an indie. Although that's weird, right? I mean traditional ways of being in indie versus new ways of being in indie and is now making many times the income she was on both in her day job and also in her previous incarnation as Sasha Black. And I think this is really interesting. I am not going to go into all the details of what she shares. You can go listen to that excellent episode on the Rebel Author podcast. But what I do want to say is sometimes you have to make a really big shift if you want to make a big change in your business, in your life. Sometimes we can't. Well, no, we never can. Brute force big change by doing things the same way. And I've learned this many times. But one of the biggest shifts I did and I've done that and I've moved countries to do big shifts in the year.

[Pia Lishter]

Back in the year 2000, I left.

[Joanna Penn]

The UK to go to Australia. That was a big shift. And then I moved to New Zealand, made a lot of changes there. And in 2011 I quit my job to become a full time author. And when we did that, it was a quite a big transition. We sold our house and moved a three bedroom house, sold investments, paid down debt, moved to a one bedroom flat. So essentially we changed what we needed to live on, freeing me up to change direction. And again, like Sasha, I transformed what I did for my job. I transformed the business model, really made some big shifts in order to change like that. And sometimes you hear like, oh, don't order coffee at Starbucks or quit that avocado toast or cancel your Netflix subscription. And these small changes will make the big difference you want in your life. But sometimes you need to make a more dramatic move physically, as I did, or in your business and in your creative life, as Sasha has done, into transforming into Ruby Row. If you listen to Sasha's episode, you'll know it's very difficult to make any kind of significant change. But if we leave things ticking along, if we think that somehow we can make some big shift on the same path we're on, I feel like you're going to hit a wall. And when you hit that wall, you have to decide to change direction and make a bigger shift. So yes, have a listen to Sasha's episode on the Rebel Author podcast to see how she made that. And I definitely have been through that kind of change a number of times. I'm not in that phase of my life right now. It might happen another time. But yes, what changes might you need to make in other author things? Spotify is transitioning some audiobook distribution services to in audio, this is I wish companies wouldn't keep doing this, changing company names. But basically Spotify bought Findaway, the audio company, a few years back now. And now they're saying on August 1, 2025, we're transitioning our audiobook distribution services for retailers other than Spotify to Inaudio, a new company dedicated to fostering a wide audiobook distribution ecosystem. So basically what they're doing is I guess, splitting out the Spotify bit of Find a way so that they will now have Inaudio as well as Spotify. So what they say in the blog post, led by experienced Industry leaders In Audio will focus on building critical technologies and partnerships to benefit the entire audiobook ecosystem. For distribution on Spotify, publishers and independent authors can use the tools available in Spotify For Authors, Find a Way Voices will become Voices by Inaudio. Ah, great. And this is quite funny, I'll come back to this, but I'm doing this latest version of successful self publishing, the 4th edition and I've been. I've finished editing the audio chapters and now I'm going to have to go back and change it to you can use In Audio for Y audio distribution brackets previously Find a Way Voices. So that's going to be fun. But at least I got it in before publication. So it says your distribution to all retailers other than Spotify will automatically transfer to Voices by In Audio and your content will remain available everywhere that it is today. So basically you don't have to do anything if you're already published on Findaway Voices. Your audiobooks published through Findaway Voices will continue to be available on Spotify after August 1st. You can publish new titles on Spotify for authors. So essentially we'll have to do two things. If you want to be on Spotify, you publish on Spotify for Authors. And if you want to be everywhere else, you can publish on Findaway on In Audio. And it's not even I small N Audio, it's capital I capital N Audio, small letters. Gotta love it. It's like another pen name like I just said Sasha did. So I logged in to find a way. I just thought I would check this and it essentially there was a pop up. It introduced Spotify for Authors and so I could just log in and all my audiobooks are already there and there'll be some reporting and all of that. Now this Spotify for Authors was announced, I don't know, before Christmas for traditionally published authors who could look at things. And now it's obviously being rolled out. So I guess what does this mean for you? If you're already published on Findaway, it all will just transfer through and then from 1st of August we need to start publishing in 2 places or 3 places if you use ACX as well, or 4 places if you also publish direct to Kobo Writing Life. Oh, so much fun. I guess the splintering of ebook services is also happening in Audio Findaway Voices was kind of the, I don't know, draft a digital for audio. But yeah, this will be interesting. What I guess this also means is Spotify will be expanding the options for authors who publish on Spotify. And I know that There'll be some marketing opportunities at some point. So once again, the audio ecosystem is expanding. And in terms of opportunities expanding in AI things. This week the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences has introduced new rules for next year's Oscars. The new guidelines do not exclude movies made with AI from winning top awards and do not limit the extent to which artificial intelligence can be used. Although of course still only a human could win an Oscar. But this basically says a human, a single human could win an Oscar working with AI tools. So I thought this was really interesting and I think this is, will have to be true at some point with books because if you think of a sliding scale from 0 AI to 100% AI, essentially this is saying, I guess as long as it's sort of 99%, it could be 99% AI, 1% human, and it could still win an Oscar. Why this is interesting is because what the Oscars reward, of course, is great art and that's what we want to create and that is what AI assisted creators want to do. So, yeah, very interesting development. Of course, lots of protests about it, but yeah, this is, this is not stopping. And to show it's not stopping now, this is not a political show. So try not to react to this. Just consider the implications of what this means. So President Trump has signed an executive order to advance artificial intelligence education in the usa. And that I didn't see this widely reported last week. Of course, everyone reports on all the dramatic things, but this went through. Artificial intelligence is rapidly transforming the modern world, driving innovation across industries, enhancing productivity, and reshaping the way we live and work. To ensure the United States remains a global leader in this technological revolution, we must provide our nation's youth with opportunities to cultivate the skills and understanding necessary to use and create the next generation of AI technology. By fostering AI competency, we will equip our students with the foundational knowledge and skills necessary to adapt to and thrive in an increasingly digital society. While education in kindergarten through 12th grade K to 12 is critical, our nation must also make resources available for lifelong learners to develop new skills for a changing workforce. And I pulled that line out because this is very pertinent. So firstly, for anyone who's even been anti AI, what is going to be happening in American schools soon? These plans have to be in place within the next 90 days and then that will obviously start being rolled out. Kids, your kids and your grandkids are going to be learning about this if they haven't been already. And this sort of, we must Also make resources available for lifelong learners is also critically important. So if you haven't been investing in your AI education, now is the time. And what I found interesting about this is it is almost a decade after China did this, so I'm sure you have seen the US China drama going on. But it was 2016 when China decided to put AI at the center of education, when AlphaGo beat Lee Sedol at the game of Go in 2016. If you've been listening, you've heard me talk about this since 2016. But China declared a Sputnik moment then and refocused on AI and they set a goal to be the leaders in AI by 2030. Now interestingly, they said that in 2016 it is not that long to go until 2030 and they are certainly only a few months behind in terms of models. And really interesting that this years fly by, don't they? They really do. I remember them saying this and I said to Jonathan at the time, I wish we would invest, you know, invest the UK would invest in this kind of education. Kind of given up on that, although I've obviously been doing it myself. But it is about time other countries took this seriously. So that's in the US off the back of this really it's something I've been thinking about. But I'm going to do another webinar on AI for author and I'll probably do it in June. I did one a few years ago, almost exactly two years ago I did a couple, I ended up doing I think four webinars because they all sold out and it, they went really well and so much has changed obviously and I think it's time I did another one. Especially now this is moving into a focus on we really must educate people. So I'm going to put together that it will be a two hour webinar. 95% of it will not be about writing publishable words. With AI, 95% of all the useful things that I use AI for is not writing finished words. That's just not what I do. There are plenty of courses on write a book with AI in a day. That is not what this will be. This will be all the other things. I will obviously have to include one thing on generating words, but a lot of it will be everything else now more on that probably next week. I need to build the landing page but yeah, I feel like it's things are speeding up so much that I, I want to do that. So yes, keep an eye out for that. In personal news, it is Kickstarter fulfillment time. So if you backed Death Valley I sent out the links to the ebook and the audiobook this week. You should have those if you and this is a kind of broader thing if you back a Kickstarter campaign, sometimes emails go astray. But if you log into Kickstarter you can see messages and those messages will have all the links things so if you haven't got my links then check that. I'm doing my webinar on writing thrillers today as I record this and tomorrow morning. I have really enjoyed preparing this. I've actually never taught how to write thrillers before so it's been pretty fun to prepare this and think about all the thrillers that I love and all the examples and I look forward to hanging out with the group. I will send the recording out this week if you backed at that level. The print orders are in and I'll be signing at Book Vault in mid May. Fun times. So yes, that is heading out and and I think I've said this before but I love doing Kickstarters with gorgeous print editions. As I was doing the successful self publishing book, I'm like do you know what? This is one of my favorite parts of the process now. And many of you would have heard me more than I guess two years ago, two and a half years ago now when I said I will never do a crowdfunding. I just don't want to do that. And then technology changed and Book Vault came along and the exciting things we can do and now I'm just in love with it. I feel like a real author. So yes, gorgeous print editions coming soon. So I am already thinking about my next campaign because of the gorgeous books and how much I love them. And again, long time listeners will have heard me talk about the Gothic Cathedral project which I've been talking on and off about for years now. Last year I looked at the pain of image permissions and the cost of hiring someone to do it all. Now I have my own pictures that I've taken in English Gothic cathedrals. But you need image permissions commissions when you want to use your own pictures in a commercial way and they've been taken on private property. So I the cost of hiring someone to get all the right details, send all the letters, follow it up. I I just thought it was too hard. But Now I have chat GPT03 deep research. So O3 has been a real game changer. It is just incredibly better than anything we've had before. This week I set it on a task for me so I was like okay, how could image permission things be easy? So my prompt on and this is ChatGPT03 model deep research and I said make a list of all English Gothic cathedrals, the requirements for image permissions for each of them, the email addresses or people to contact and also write a sample letter that I can send now. It took about 10 minutes and then came back and gave me this report with exactly what I asked for, including all the email addresses, what they want for paragraphs about what they need for the image permissions and everything. And it's just transformed my attitude again. So I also gave it around 30,000 words. So I've been taking notes on this and thinking and kind of brainstorming for a while and lots of, I don't know, random notes I've taken while I've been in these cathedrals. So it's kind of part memoir. It's. It's chaos. And this is another reason I pulled away because I was like I don't even know what this book book is or what it could be. And so I uploaded it all just the chaotic txt dump and said okay, this is a project I'm thinking about. Can you give me some ways that I can wrangle it? Basically I can't give you the exact prompt off the top of my head, but it's been helping me get my arms around the project again. So I'm going to get back into researching that. I also have some short stories to work on. So yes, I'm emerging from the post book exhaustion to starting energy again which is super. So the cycle is turning once more for me. I've also been working on editing successful self publishing the fourth edition this week it is jam packed with updated info on everything to do with self publishing, ebooks, print and audio. And in writing it I realized that self publishing really can be quite overwhelming for people. I mean you can keep it pretty simple but there are so many options now out and it can take some navigating. So I'm really pleased I've got this done and again O3 helped me with that. I got it to assess the third edition and give me a sort of plan for updates. So that has really enabled me to and all the finished words are my own and as I said I'm editing them. I think non fiction this, this kind of thing you need to be very controlling with, with what you do publish. But obviously I have used O3 and Claude to help me with the draft and now I'm in hand edits and then it goes to Kristen, my editor and will be out. I'm also human narrating the audiobook. Since then I can publish on Audible as well as all the other platforms pre orderers up at thecreativepen.com SSP4 in other things, I'm on the Writers Inc. Podcast talking about writing memoir and also non fiction in general. I actually recorded that with Kevin before Christmas so it's good to have it out there. That is on Writers Inc. Podcast. Also on my books and travel podcast I Last week I discussed Lindisfarne Holy island with Laura Wilde who lived on the island. And if you don't know about Lindisfarne, it is a place that leaves a real impression and if you've read Pilgrimage you'll know I write about it there. So that is on my books and travel podcast. So thank you for all your emails and comments and photos this week. Anne said, listening while baking morning buns, cardamom and orange. They look delicious. Anne. Thank you for the lovely smiley picture Carrie sent some pictures of a Confederate cemetery outside Nashville. It's small and plain, but I thought the story behind it was interesting. The gravestones are small and unmarked. Tony sent pictures from the Monte Cassino War Cemetery in central Italy between Rome and Naples, one of those places where the war graves stretch in rows to the distance. Tony says it features in a scene from my book. I had to check. I got the description right. Minor alterations were required, a valuable lesson I learned. I've flown back several times to ensure accuracy. Google Maps is a terrific resource, but I feel as writers we have to experience the sounds and smells of a place to give our work authenticity. And yes Tony, I certainly agree on in person research. It's one of the reasons I love this job. But of course many people have challenges around access and budget, so Google Maps is certainly a good place to start. Okay, so please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on the YouTube channel at the Creative Pen, or message me on X at the Creative Pen or email me, send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation. This episode is sponsored by prowritingaid. Because however you choose to publish, whether you go indie or you want a traditional deal, you need to make your book the best it can be. ProWritingAid is one of my absolute must use tools in my writing process for both fiction and non fiction as well as short stories. And in fact I've been using it this week for successful self publishing. So once I finish the draft and I hand edit, I use prowritingaid to fix up any issues and I use it again after I put the edits in Scrivener, since I always make more mistakes and then before sending it to Kristen, my human editor. I use ProWritingAid with Scrivener, but you can use it with other software or just online in the browser. ProWritingAid knows all the rules of editing and helps you apply them. And of course you can choose not to make changes as you like. It can help with making your writing more active, finding repeated words, finding words and sentences you could improve, adding sensory detail, sentence structure, grammar and punctuation, typos, spacing, and more. I don't accept all the changes, but it helps me find lots of problems. ProWritingAid now has a manuscript analysis developmental editing tool and a beta reader report so you can get editorial analysis of your whole manuscript. And I've tried this. It's very, very good. So why use software to help? Why don't you just learn all the grammar and writing rules and use them and apply them yourself? Well, we all use tools to improve our process and we're often blind to our own writing issues. It helps to have another pair of eyes, even if the eyes are software. So yes, an editor can do all this, but I'd rather pay my editor to fix the things that software can't. So I use prowritingaid as my essential editing tool before sending to my human editor. Check out the free edition or get 15% off the premium edition by using my link. Prowritingaids.com Joanna J-O-A-N N A that's prowritingaid.com Joanna so this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] thecreativepenn thanks to the five new patrons who've joined this week, and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community, you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering writing, craft and author business, as well as tutorials and demos on AI tools. Last week I did my Patron Only Q and A solo show, which is where I answer questions from the community. It's about 45 to 55 minutes of me doing a solo episode. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. You get access to everything, all the Backlist content, Q&As, office hours and more. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P A T R E O. Right, let's get into the interview.

[Pia Lishter]

Pia Lishter is an award winning creative director and coach, founder of the collective studio and the author of welcome to the Creative Club. Make life your biggest art project. So welcome to the show, Pia.

Thanks so much Jo for having me on. Excited to be here?

Oh yes. So first up, tell us a bit more about you and what is a Creative club director anyway? And what part does writing play in your business?

Wow. Let me start. I'll start with a creative director. A creative director typically can work in different creative fields such as advertising, film, fashion, you name it. But I came from the world of marketing and advertising. So in that landscape, a creative director oversees the creative vision for different brands and different projects in the studio and marries artistic expression with commercial objectives. Also manages a creative team and kind of blends magic and logic, strategy and creativity to create an impact in our clients lives and the lives of their consumers.

That sounds pretty cool.

It was pretty cool. It was good. It was really good. It's where I spent well over a decade. So it was very rewarding work. And I mean as a creative director, at least in that world you can have either like a design background or a writing background. So I was like the copywriting background.

Okay. And then. And so what is it you do now then?

Now I work as a creative partner working with. Well, I think the simplest way of putting it is I help people create. I help people create brands, businesses, dreams, art, what they're being called to create. People who do things differently, to make a difference. Those are generally the people I work with. So what that means is, or I call it sort of a creative midwife. So I help people at different sticky junctures in life. Often when we're at this creative evolution point, when what we used to create was successful, wonderful, whether it's a business or creative venture. But it's just not floating our boat anymore. It's. We're just being called to do something, something different. And that can be both thrilling and terrifying at the same time because it's like what is going to come next? What is my next becoming? What is my next creation? And I often partner with creatives that are, that are at that point. So yeah, and then what's great about it is I have different tools at my disposal. I'm also a certified coach, so I bring together coaching and creativity in the form of narrative development, storytelling, brand strategy, to actually help bring whatever it is they're looking to bring to life into the world. So I get to combine both of those things, depending on where people are in their journey.

So why this book then? Because it sounds like you've got lots of different strands to your business and your creative life. Why write this book? What part does that play?

It's a fantastic question. When I left my agency, the last agency I worked for, I think it was 20, 20, 21, my mother passed away suddenly, and she gave me the passing gift of courage and a reminder that this life is finite. And we just got one, as far as we know. And I had been flirting with the idea of channeling my creativity into building my own business for a long time, but I was comfortable. Things were good. Good enough, good enough. So I think I was scared too, of, like, what would that next thing be and what would I even do and how would it. How would I survive and what does it look like? And that kind of kept me stuck. Speaking of creative evolutions. So when she passed, it was like, hey, what am I waiting for? If it's not now, then when? And I left that job and I launched Collective Studio. And that was an epiphany moment for me. Like, wow, I don't just get to create other people's dreams, I get to create my own. And then from there, it was just a wild and wonderful and weird journey into entrepreneurship. And then the second epiphany with the book came from getting a call from my hybrid publisher, the founder, also great salesman and great writer, but asked, have you ever thought of writing a book? And. And yeah, like, I believe everyone has a book in them, but I definitely have thought about it. And I had a conversation with him and he shared a stat like 90 something percent of people that say, no now to writing a book will actually never write that book, because if not now, when? And so I had my like, second big light bulb moment of wow. I don't only get to channel my creativity into commercial endeavors, I actually get to channel it just to make art, to make things, to make a. To write a book that feels important or meaningful to me. And a whole new path opened up to me. So that's what led me to write the book. And I'm really glad I did. It was a really transformative process. It took me places I never thought I would go. I couldn't even imagine imagined going. That wasn't necessarily the intention, but it. It was really? Definitely a growth opportunity and still continues to be.

Yes, because it's definitely, I guess, a combination of self help and memoir. And I've also written a memoir. And it is also.

[Joanna Penn]

It was also one of, I guess, the.

[Pia Lishter]

The hardest books that I've written. And transformative, as you say, for people who feel like they do want to write something so personal, but they're holding back because it is work in many ways, and it's a journey. And as you say, transformative. How can you encourage people to write that book? Like, how can they get over the fear of everything that could happen because of it, both internally and externally?

Well, asking a really powerful question is, what happens if I don't write it? What does life look like? What then? What happens if I don't write it today or in a year or three years? What happens if I don't? It could be writing a book, and it could also just be doing that thing that's really calling you. Then what? Then you keep doing exactly what you're doing. And at some point, the desire to create that book, to write that book, to create that whatever that thing venture might be, become stronger than the fear. And that would be one thing. The second thing is remembering that you don't have to do it alone. I think what held me back was this thought, this myth of the lone genius writer in a cabin in the woods on tapping, you know, creating it all in their typewriter, and it's just all of the words just flowing out. And I thought, oh my gosh, I don't know if I'm going to be able to just do that, like just spit out a book. And it turns out just like creativity is collaboration, I didn't have to. They're wonderful editors and people along the way that help us create a book, create anything that we. We don't have to do it alone. And we often don't do it it alone. So there's that. And then the third thing that helped me at least was remembering that we all have a hidden expiration date. Nothing's guaranteed. So we got this one life. We might as well live it in the way that feels most fulfilling and whatever makes you feel most alive. And often what makes at least me feel most alive is also a little frightening, but thrilling. And I feel like, gosh, I'm doing it, I'm here, I'm living this thing. And that feels really important. So those are three potential motivators for starting to write something deeply personal or vulnerable to you.

And I guess another reason is kind of Taking control of things, looking back and kind of taking control of the narrative. As you say, you work with people in the sort of narrative coaching side. And in the book there was a line that said, I used to think life was happening to me. And I feel like a lot of people feel that right now. There's some big political things going on, big historical things. There's AI going on. It feels like history is happening to us. So if people are feeling that, how can they take control and not just let life happen?

Well, it's remembering that we're always at choice. Even when it might not feel like we have a choice in the direction of our lives. We do. We get to choose. We get to choose what we want to do next at every point. And I think that's easy to forget in the overwhelm of information, in the current political climate and all of the really fast paced changes that are occurring in the world. It can feel really overwhelming. And I think just remembering that you get to choose, you also get to choose to not listen to the news in the morning if that feels like sensory overload or too much. And you get to choose to pick up a pen and you get to choose how you want to direct your next scene. You, you, you get to decide. And I don't know, for me that feels like creative agency, that feels like creative power. Knowing that you are creating your experience, that you are an active protagonist, main player in this game called life. And I think taking some kind of action first, getting clear on, on what it is that you might really want to do, and that can be something small or large. Right. And then actually taking action to make it real is a way of creating evidence for yourself. Like, yeah, I get to choose. I can take a day off of work tomorrow and go finally see that art exhibit and eat that cardamom bun I've been dying to eat. And I can do these things and that can feel like beautiful pockets of freedom. It's just taste. And I think the more that we practice that, that creative director of our lives muscle, the stronger it gets.

Yes. Because as you say, you can do small things. It doesn't have to be change everything. And I do actually want to come back because you said earlier about this sort of question, what is my next becoming? And here. And then you just said, you need to get clear on what you want to do. But these are really, really big questions. So I recently turned 50, one of those moments like everyone has. And you know, I've been a writer now for nearly 20 years and this Sort of what is my next becoming is something that I've been thinking about and I know people listening because the way the author life and the author industry is really changing. Like, what is the next becoming? How do we tap into that question? How do we explore that question?

Well, I think we get closer to what feels like fun. Like sometimes it can. These questions can feel so big and it feels weighty and meaty and important and yes, of course they are. But also we get to move towards what feels really fun. Like what. What lights us up and it could be anything. And I feel like they're insights into our own becoming within that, within the things that we gravitate towards that makes it make us feel alive or make us feel joyful. And it can be in the small and big. But just getting curious about what really feels like fun. When was the last time you really had fun making something, doing something, and you know, is there a red thread? Is there a pattern that you might be able to notice? I feel like there's something in that. And for me personally, recently I've been having a lot of fun working. There was like synchronicity. I started working with someone who actually read the book, who. We became friends, who's a fantastic musician and producer and we decided to take the poems out of. From my book and create a spoken word album. And he's creating tracks for each poem and that feels like so much fun. And I don't know about. Maybe the next becoming is just a allowing myself to create what is lighting me up and what makes me smile and what feels good, what feels warm. It's like, ooh, it might not make the Billboard top hundred list, but it's really great to be able to co create with someone who can take your work in a completely different, correction, sorry, direction. And the process of doing it makes it into something else. Like the poems now become something else. So I don't know, it's just a small example of what feels like fun. And it was a nice reminder that, yeah, move towards that. That feels fulfilling. And then let's figure out what the next thing might feel like instead of sort of this big definitive answer, like, what will the next 50 years of my life look like? I think those. We are fluid, changeable beings and things we will change. Luckily, that's the beauty. And so. So maybe it's just reconnecting to what feels joyful right now can be the first step. And I'm also turning 50 next month, so I feel you.

[Joanna Penn]

Ah, yeah.

[Pia Lishter]

Well, there we go. Well, I Guess I find the word fun quite difficult, I must say. I think it's my upbringing, but there are things that I enjoy. But it's interesting with writing. Writing. There's this. I don't know if you've heard of type one fun and type two fun. Have you heard of this?

No. Tell me, please.

Okay, so type one fun is like, you say, it's the kind of joyful. You know, like having a Dr. With friends. You're having a dance. It's. It's fun. Type 2 fun is you do something that might be pretty painful at the time. Like, I walk these pilgrimages. And maybe at the time, it's not what you call fun, but you look back and go, yes, that was worth doing. That's like type two fun. And you smile as you remember it. But it was hard. And I feel like most writing books is type 2 fun. It is not necessarily a joyful process. Was writing this book like. Like a fun thing?

Well, I. Before I answer that, I just want to point something out. I think what I'm hearing you say is fulfillment. Because what feels fulfilling doesn't always feel fun at the time. And I really agree in align with that. We could use the word joyful too. Whatever word resonates most. But fulfilling, what feels like fulfillment is important because that means it's connected to something that has really deep meaning for you, whether it's your values or what feels like your purpose. Purpose that you're actually living and expressing. It feels really fulfilling when you're living in alignment with what you value most. So. So the book was definitely fulfilling. There were pockets of fun, but they were pockets. It was also challenging, definitely, but it felt really fulfilling. It felt like, yes, this is. This is exactly where I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to be doing. It just. Just felt that way. And that kept me going. And I think that keeps. That keeps us going when we're doing any kind of creative project that requires a long commitment. It's when it's connected to our big fat why or what feels fulfilling or what has meaning. And I think it's really important to come and to create from that place, because it's our light in the dark. It's like those moments where you're like, okay, I'm done here. It kept me going, going, you know, a reminder of why I was doing this in the first place.

And there's another challenge in the book. It's a provocative question that will trigger all the workaholics listening. You say, what if My creative genius and yours lives on the other side of rest. And I read this and I was like, rest? Who do you think we are? So why is rest so hard for us and yet so necessary for creativity?

I think at least in Western culture, we're geared to connect and believe that our value is based on what we produce. And hard work and work ethic is really prioritized. It's just something that's very important culturally. Like you gotta work hard and blood, sweat and tears and give it everything you got and that there's meaning in that. And I'm not saying there's nothing. There's, there's space in place for passionate focused work, but there's also room and it's very important for, for rest and ease. There's a place for doing and there's a place where we get to also be because we are human beings and there are a lot of insights to be discovered and dots that connect and eureka moments to be had in this, this daydreamy, restful, ease filled, ease filled place where we're, we're not so focused on a task or getting something done. And neuroscience shows that this is also how our, our brain functions. We have the default mode network, which also called our imagination network, which is really closely or correlated at least with creativity. It's the thinking that happens when we're not consciously thinking and the dots that connect in those moments, the illumination that happens when we're just allowing things to marinate and just be and process kind of percolating like coffee. And it's really, really important for our creativity and for ideas to be able to have that time as well. So it's not an either or both of default mode network and the control neural network both work together. So creativity also requires that analytical mind like the research and evaluation. But incubation and illumination are equally important. Yet in our society or culture we tend to prioritize that which can be quantified. You know that you said well this, I have done this amount of research, so therefore I've been productive. And what if productivity was also based on allowing ideas to bubble to the surface and emerge that that's just as valuable as focused task based activity. And just to say I'm a recovering speed queen, I grew up in New York City, so I'm not a Zen Buddha person. I am practicing, I am practicing slowing down. And I'm finding that when I do, when I catch myself, when I'm rushing for no reason or when I'm over doing the doing, there's a wealth of information and insight that emerges when I just give things space and sometimes nothing emerges. But I feel my energy shift and different and then I show up to the work differently because it's dangerous to start getting into the sort of equation of well, I'll rest so that I can be more productive. No, that's not what I'm saying. Because we can get into that way of thinking. It's just the same way of thinking applied to rest. So no, not necessarily. But I find it incredibly important for the creative process and also just that energy of being alive. We also get to just be and our just being there's value in us just being who we are. Might sound sound counter cultural, but that's what I believe.

Yeah, I. I like the term active rest obviously because I. I find that exhaustion is when I'm kind of watching Netflix or whatever. And that doesn't help my creative. Well, it probably does in some level. It helps my creative side because there's a lot of story, there's a lot of storytelling in. In great tv. But I walk a lot, get outside and go for really long walks and I find. Find that helps like it. It's the resting the brain kind of thing rather than. I don't want people to think that we just mean rest means lying on the sofa or like going to bed. Although sometimes that is a good thing. But also for me, I guess the filling the creative well which for me involves travel and reading and all of that kind of thing. What kinds of things do you include in. In rest?

I love that you point. You're pointing that out. Jo. There's this wonderful article and I can't remember her name. We can put it in the show not writes about seven different types of rest because often we just equate rest with laying on the couch. And it's not, you know, they're all different ways that we can rest and regenerate. Some of them could even be like light socials and regenerate through relationships. It really depends on the person, on the individual. What makes you feel refueled and recharged. I do feel that for most of us they're daydreaming and just allowing just being is important part of the rest. Like the rest portfolio, if you will. But for me, to answer your question, rest. Rest looks like meditation, movement and believe it or not, in a way journaling feels like just free writing feels restful to me in. In the sense of I'm just allowing thoughts to kind of pour out and just kind of be rather than trying to write coherently or make sense or you know, add value or whatever the words are, that's really helpful. And movement also, even though I'm not resting, just moving creates a different space for ideas to bubble up. I often get like strange thoughts. Good, good, strange thoughts when I'm moving my body. Also while I'm meditating, even though I'm able to see the thoughts that are passing by, like, oh, interesting. So I think it's about finding what feels good to you, but it's about also honoring that part of you that is not doing and working to produce something all the time. There's a place for that, but there's also a place for seven different types of rest. We can call it that.

Yes, indeed. And it's interesting because there are some people in the writing community who say, oh, you must write every day. And I always say, no, I don't write every day. I'm a full time author, entrepreneur. But I don't write every day. I call myself a binge writer. So I do the book and then I do the project and then I launch the book and then I'm right, like right now as we're recording this, I am in launch phase for my book Death Valley.

[Joanna Penn]

I'm not writing.

[Pia Lishter]

I'm in the sort of restful, kind of exhausted, kind of like, oh my goodness, I'm never going to have another idea again. But even this morning I actually felt a little twitch. I felt that twitch of interest in other things. And that's when I start going, ah, okay, maybe my brain is getting ready again. So yeah, this kind of going in and out, I guess of the output phase. Input phase, output phase, rest phase, I guess.

Yeah, cycles, just like seasons, we're cyclical, you know, and things have cycles. And I can really relate with, you know, after I wrote the book in December, now I'm still in, in launch mode. Launch mode lasts a year at least, which is interesting to me. But what's great is it's activating different aspects of my creativity. So it feels like there are different parts of my creativity that I'm applying in the launch phase. And I think that's, that's interesting. And it also gives the book writing creative space, some air, which I also need. So I can relate to that. And I also, you know, self doubt creeps in sometime where it's like, oh, I have a newsletter. It's like, oh, I can't possibly think of. Everything's so busy. What am I going to write about? I don't know. And the minute Doubt creeps in, just like you said. Then the next day it's like, oh, I'm going to write about doubt. This is great. And it's like an idea pops up and it's just trusting that you have a wealth of ideas within you. And when you give it some space and you trust that they're there, they will emerge. Emerge. That I'm sure of.

Yeah, absolutely. And so coming back right at the beginning, you said about artistic expression and commercial objectives, marrying those two as part of being a creative director. And that sort of brings us to this. You mentioned their launch mode happening for a whole year. So you're now on the commercial side of this book. So tell us about that and about what kinds of things are a challenge around the commercial side of the book.

Well, as you mentioned earlier, Joe, that writing the memoir was one of the toughest. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I think he said one of the hardest ones.

Something like that.

Something like that, yeah. Well, I think marketing this book feels a little bit more vulnerable because I'm sharing very personal stories in service of the reader and the book within it, within its pages. So. So I am learning how to step deeper into the arena and be vulnerable and show up and ask and tell, like, hey, I have a book. This is what I'm doing. And to ask more people to get involved as I go through this launch process, you know, so that feels vulnerable to me and sometimes really challenging. Getting reviews is challenging, especially when it's about my life. So I feel like I'm building really important muscles for my creativity so that I can more freely express myself. Because at the end of the day, people are going to experience my work and myself. However they experience it, that's their experience and they should have whatever experience they want to have. And just like Mel Robbins says, let's them let people have their own experience. It has nothing. It's not mine, it's theirs. And it's that separation that is really important. I think when you are showing up and sharing something that feels vulnerable and powerful and important, but vulnerable. And so I'm learning. I'm learning to stand for my work. And also in this case, it also means standing for my story. And I think that's sort of the extra component component that makes it more like the growth opportunity I mentioned earlier. So it's been a wild ride because even though I come from this world, I've never marketed a book before. So there is just so much to learn and there's actually so many things that you could be doing as an author when you market your book and a lot of investment that you could be, you know, a lot of money you could be spending on it. So to me it's about finding what are the activities or actions that I can take that feel most aligned that would have the biggest impact. Impact for the book. And I'm still sort of figuring out what that looks like. I had a pre sale community that was incredibly important to the success of this book and I'm really, really grateful. I had a pre sale. It allowed me to, to build community and it helped strengthen that asking muscle. Like hey, I haven't, I've written the draft, but I'm not done yet. But I need your help to take the book to print. And reaching out to almost everyone I knew to ask that was a huge muscle builder, you know. So now it's reaching out into the wider world to share the story and to explore different avenues. Next up, Amazon ads. Let's see what happens. You know, reviewers get just finding different avenues and I'm sure you have a lot of insight around this to bring the, the book into the world world.

Yeah, but I think, I mean, you're exactly right. There are so many things you could do. And I actually love that you've talked about launch mode for a year because in the kind of indie author community that I'm part of, we tend to just move on to the next book where we're not so interested in launching. We're like, right. We're just loving writing so much that we move on to the next book. And I think having that commitment to pushing the book for longer is actually really good. Especially with an evergreen book like this. It's not gonna go out of style, it's not based on the news, it's not political. So you can basically market this forever, which I think is, is great. But you talk there about aligned and impact.

[Joanna Penn]

So. And I mean you.

[Pia Lishter]

Then you mentioned Amazon ads, which is interesting. It'll be interested how you feel that goes.

[Joanna Penn]

But.

[Pia Lishter]

But you are doing a lot of podcast interviews, I think. So how has that gone? How have you been pitch? Obviously you pitched me and I was interested. So is that going well?

Yay. I'm so glad you were. Yeah, it is going well. It's. Here's the thing, I think creativity can feel very. It can feel. It's uncertain. Right. We don't know what we're going to create when we set out to create anything. And I think podcasts and showing up and sharing, you know, our stories is also uncertain. We haven't, you haven't met me before, I haven't met you. And that's also the beauty because we don't know what we're going to co create together in our conversation and what that could be like. So I find it again, it's that combination of, it's like nerve sided, you know, nervous and exciting and thrilling and terrifying and I feel like as we move further, I like to call it, as Brene Brown says, like the arena, that quote from Roosevelt. As we move further into the arena, it's, it's. We make ourselves more visible and we get bruised and we get ripped and cut and people will see us more and have something to say. But at least we're out there like living, you know, we're doing the things and I think that requires courage and belief in what it is that you're creating and in yourself, I suppose. And also I'm going to say the word you don't like again. Fun. Because it's for me. Sometimes we forget that we also get to make a joke. Like it can be a fun experience. So far this is fun. I'm getting to know you and we're having a conversation and hopefully connecting with your audience and people to share stories. Stories. So I don't know, it feels good. I was on social media for my business very heavily for quite a number of years actually. I was on X, building a pretty large community for a while and then not to get deep into politics, but with certain recent shifts, the social media landscape, it just didn't feel aligned anymore. Even though it was really counterintuitive, like, oh really? I'm going to build my business and keep launching my book without it. Like really? But it felt right, like I. Nope, it's not feeling good for me. It doesn't feel like this is my, my path. And people sold books and built businesses before social media. We can do it again, right? We can keep doing that. So I'm currently exploring that and that's led me to podcasts, that's led me to reach out to build and strengthen community, have more meetings one on one, exploring events, what are different ways that I can meet people and share this story and hear their stories and that, that feels exciting. Even though it's a bit daunting because it's like, oh, I haven't really seen how this is done before. So that's kind of, that's what I mean by a line just to further unfold that. And impact is, well, this feels like impact. Being able to to have a conversation, being able to connect and hopefully with other people. So impact is not only sales or reviews, which are of course very important in the life of a book book, but also human impact reaching people.

Yeah. And I mean I, I am having fun having a conversation with you.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah.

[Pia Lishter]

And I, but I think. And you talk about intuition in the book as well. I try and have a intuitive, you know, obviously I prepared and I sent you questions but I feel like the conversation becomes quite intuitive and we get into things as they come up and, and that's what I enjoy as part of being a, being a podcaster. But I did want to come back on the commercial side because I'm obvious making money from my books and many of the listeners are or they want to. And you have a section in the book where you talk about this. You talk about your money wound and also your scarcity script. And I wondered how you think that appears for writers and authors because let's face it, books, you have to sell a lot of books to make decent money. So how can listeners change the script around books and money?

That's a great question. Well, how we do one thing is how we approach everything. So, so if it's approaching, it's how you approach books and money. It's also life, how you approach money and life generally. And the same speaks to like ideas. Like scarcity is not only. It could be of course scarcity of fun, scarcity of opportunities, but scarcity of ideas. Right. Where am I ever going to get another idea? There's not enough ideas. What am I going to do? And then that sort of becomes a block or could be a self fulfilling prophecy. So how do we start to shift while it's trusting that there is an abundance of ideas within us like we, there's proof of that. Like look, Joe, you've written, did you say 45 books?

Yeah, something like that.

Like if that's not abundance, honey, I don't know, I don't know what is. But I find that helpful to, to anchor and into trust and into the process of actually creating. So I didn't create, write the book from a place that I need to. If I don't make this book a financial success, I won't survive like that. I think that's a difficult premise to write a book from given the state of the industry. I wrote the book from a place of I want to share something that has meaning and I want to give it the best chance at succeeding in the world and reaching people. But the scarcity, I don't Know, when it comes to writing books, what I really think about more than money is I think about trusting that you have the book within you, that you have the ideas within you. And then the money part is releasing, hopefully that you're in a position that you can release the expectation of what it needs to deliver financially and just do your best to get it into the world and have different income streams. That's been very important for me and my creativity. So not having my only income stream be. Be this book that would be feel. That would feel very tight for my creativity, that would like start to strangle it, I think. But having multiple ways of creating income and that feels like abundance to me. Like, look, I can do this, it can be that, and it could also be this book. But maybe the income the book generates is not just through sales. There are other doors that it opens that become really interesting and fascinating. But I kind of try to detach from expectation and outcome, however hard that might be. That to me sometimes can feel like scarcity. Like if I don't get this, then what it's more like, well, I trust that I'm going to get the opportunities that I need and that I'm going to be. I'm going to receive what I need and I'm going to do this for also the love of doing it. However utopian or whatever that may sound, it feels important to me and to create creativity. I don't know if I fully answered your question, but that's what comes up for me as you asked it.

Yeah. And I am absolutely into multiple streams of income and abundance of ideas. And, and in fact, only this last week I learned something new from someone that I'm implementing right now and having another stream of income from that. And it's like new ideas appear every day. I actually love that you said also about people sold books before social media and so they can still now. I think that's so important because people, well, if I can't use this or, you know, I left this platform and went here and there's nobody here and like, what do I do? And I'm like this. There's literally thousands of other ways to sell books other than social media, right?

Absolutely. And that's where we can use our. Apply our creativity like you are. We are. If you're writing a book, you know you are creative whether you write a book or not. But especially if you're writing a book, then you acknowledge your own creativity. So imagine just applying that in different ways. Like what are different ways I could get this Book into the world. And that's what I'm playing with. And there's some that I might be able to see and others I might not and other ways people might help me see go. Oh, have you thought of that? No, actually. That's really interesting. And I think people come into your life also to show you. And I heard something actually, it was from a tarot reader, full disclosure, but she's wonderful. And she said, said that the affirmation or the thought is allow. Allowing me. Allow me to recognize the opportunities. And that shifted something from me. I really loved it. Talking about scarcity and abundance. Like, allow me to recognize the opportunities. Hey, wait a minute. That means the opportunities are already here. Oh, how cool. That's. That's like game changing for me. Like they're already here here. I just need to recognize them. Because sometimes if we get hooked to what something has to be, has to wear this specific Yves Saint Laurent outfit and if it's not wearing that, then I. It's not the opportunity. And like letting go of what it has to look like or exactly what it has to do or be kind of frees us up to see. Oh my God, look, it's wearing a vintage Dior dress from the 70s and the corner. I never. Wow, look at that opportunity. Because sometimes, sometimes opportunities can come to us in a lot of different shapes and forms, but we need to kind of release the grip a little bit and trust that they're here. It's available to us. We just need to recognize them. So that was something I found very helpful on my journey. So it's like, I don't know what this will be. Let's see, let's see what opportunities I might be able to recognize as I go journey through the process of marketing this book.

Well, it is a great book. Welcome to the Creative club. So tell us, where can people find you and the book online?

All the usual places, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, bookshop.org are the three main ones. And I am at Collective Studio. So that's a collective spelled actually in Danish because I currently live in Copenhagen. I lived in London before I moved here and before that, many other countries. So Collective Studio.

Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Pia. That was great.

Thank you so much for having me, Jo. It was a wild ride. I really enjoyed it.

[Joanna Penn]

So I hope you found Pier's interview thought provoking. What might be your next becoming and what brave changes might you need to make? Or maybe you just needed to hear the message about rest and how it can help you be more creative in the long run. Let me know what you think of today's episode. Leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. Comment on X at the Creative Pen or email me joannathecreativepen.com Send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Next week I'm talking to Abby Polakoff about what prose writers can learn from poets. We geek out about punctuation and line breaks, and Abby is devastating to hear that many tiktokers seem to think the EM dash is a sign of AI writing. But of course real writers know that the EM dash, as well as other important things of punctuation, are critical parts of the writer's toolbox. It is a fun conversation. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] blueprint if you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X at the Creative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook. Fpenauthor Happy writing and I'll see you next time.