Overcoming Procrastination With Colleen M. Story

Summary

The Creative Penn Podcast for Writers

Episode 829: Overcoming Procrastination with Colleen M. Story
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Colleen M. Story, author of “Escape the Writer’s Untangle Your Procrastination Type”
Date: September 22, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Joanna Penn welcomes writer and motivational coach Colleen M. Story to explore the multifaceted challenge of procrastination for writers. Together, they discuss not just what procrastination is, but the various forms it takes, how to identify your personal procrastination style, and actionable strategies for overcoming it—whether in writing craft, creative business, or author marketing. The conversation blends practical insight, empathetic encouragement, and deep understanding of the creative mind.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Getting to Know Colleen M. Story

(Timestamp: 27:01–29:41)

• Colleen shares her untraditional journey into writing, starting as a music graduate before falling into writing “almost accidentally.”
• She began with short stories, transitioned to copywriting, and evolved into a hybrid author of fiction and nonfiction.
• Quote:

  “I wasn’t one of those people who knew from the cradle I wanted to be a writer... Music came first for me, but then I got bit by the writing bug. It just kind of happened.” — Colleen (27:07)

• Colleen’s entrance into nonfiction—particularly books for writers—was driven by recognizing gaps in productivity and mindset that writers were struggling with in her community.

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2. Why Focus on Procrastination?

(Timestamp: 31:19–34:03)

• Colleen didn’t consider herself a procrastinator until deep-diving into the diverse forms of procrastination.
• Recurring surveys showed that productivity and procrastination were writers’ most common pain points.
• Procrastination isn’t always obvious avoidance—it often manifests subtly, especially around emotionally uncomfortable tasks (e.g., submitting work, marketing).
• Quote:

  "At its core, procrastination is always an emotional coping technique. It is a way to protect us from uncomfortable emotions." — Colleen (34:12)

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3. Surprising Forms of Procrastination

(Timestamp: 34:12–38:08)

• Procrastination isn’t just wasting time on social media—it can be endlessly tweaking cover letters or avoiding submissions out of fear of rejection.
• Joanna reflects on her own early “productive” procrastination (attending courses, taking notes, but not actually writing her book).
• Memorable moment:

  “I was going on courses, taking a lot of notes, but I was never writing my own work as such... I wanted you to tell me more stuff so I could avoid writing!” — Joanna (38:09)

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4. Routes Out of Procrastination: Awareness & Small Steps

(Timestamp: 38:20–43:21)

• The first step is honest self-awareness about avoidance behaviors.
• Recognize when “research” or “thinking” is actually avoidance.
• Break big tasks into the smallest possible next action—especially using the “five-minute rule”:
  • “Sit down and do something for five minutes. That can apply to writing, or even dreaded marketing tasks.” — Colleen (41:51)
• Procrastination often protects your current identity (e.g., “aspiring writer” vs. “published author”); progress means becoming someone new.

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5. Types of Procrastination and Personalized Approaches

(Timestamp: 43:21–54:50)

• Self-understanding is key: Identify your personal procrastination style to tailor solutions.

a. The Overthinker

• Gets stuck thinking rather than doing.
• “Doing is a far better teacher than thinking.”

b. The Distracted Type

• Has a brain that seeks novelty, is easily pulled toward distractions.
• Solution: Schedule distractions as planned breaks (trade 10 minutes distraction for 20 minutes focus).

c. The Guilty Type

• Carries guilt for both writing and not writing.
• Quote:

  “It’s like we’re guilty when we’re writing and guilty when we’re not writing... You have to always allow yourself to start fresh.” — Colleen (46:53)

• Writers must recognize the importance of their creative dreams and not minimize them out of guilt or people-pleasing.

d. The Perfectionist

• Endlessly tweaks one project fearing failure; believes their first book must be perfect.
• Quote:

  “Perfectionism really at its core is a huge fear of failure.” — Colleen (54:50)

• Encouraged to set time limits, release projects, and embrace new ones.

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6. The Emotional & Psychological Journey

(Timestamp: 52:07–54:42)

• The ongoing creative calling is likened to nurturing an inner child; we would never tell a six-year-old to “do accounting instead of writing stories.”
• Regular writing is beneficial for brain development, empathy, and personal resilience.
• Quote:

  “If we squash down that creative self, it can almost feel like that growth is stunted somehow.” — Joanna (53:10)

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7. Advice on Author Business & Marketing Procrastination

(Timestamp: 63:21–68:23)

• Many creative writers resist marketing or business tasks, procrastinating just as they might with craft.
• Colleen’s approach: Experiment, be willing to risk “failure,” and learn through doing—not just study.
• Adapt your marketing to your strengths and interests (e.g., podcasts, YouTube, blogging).
• Quote:

  “Marketing is just about trying to introduce our work to more people... so what are my natural strengths and how can I apply those?” — Colleen (65:27)

• Memorable moment:

  “I had a TikTok account for about six hours and just hated it!” — Joanna (67:47)

• Find what suits you; don’t chase every new platform if it's not your medium.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On procrastination as protection:

  “It is usually very subtle and devious... Even very productive writers can end up procrastinating on things that bring up uncomfortable emotions.” — Colleen (34:12)

• On guilt and creativity:

  “If you have a dream to write, there’s usually a deeper reason for it than just wanting to write a book... Don’t allow anyone to take that time away from you.” — Colleen (49:52)

• On moving beyond perfectionism:

  “Doing is so much better than thinking. The important thing is to get [your book] out and give yourself time for the books that will come afterwards.” — Colleen (61:41)

• On creative growth:

  “You just need to clear that first blockage out the way and then that pipe just keeps flowing—the ideas keep flowing—but you need to unblock it with that first book.” — Joanna (59:27)

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Key Takeaways & Actionable Strategies

• Procrastination takes many forms: It's not only about being lazy—it's driven by emotion and identity, with types like Overthinker, Guilty, Distracted, and Perfectionist.
• Self-understanding is foundational: Learn your procrastination style to find effective solutions.
• Fight guilt and perfectionism: Recognize the value of your creative dreams and embrace imperfection as part of growth.
• Five-minute rule: Commit to working on a task for at least five minutes—momentum often follows.
• Experiment with business and marketing: Play to your strengths, try new things with low pressure, and don’t force yourself onto platforms that don’t fit.

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Additional Resources and Where to Find Colleen

• Procrastination-style quiz and more: masterwritermindset.com
• Author site: colleenmstory.com
• YouTube: Colleen M. Storyteller

“My motivational site is masterwritermindset.com. My author site is just my name. And yes, that is my real name!” — Colleen (70:28)

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For Further Discussion & Connection

• Joanna encourages listeners to reflect on their own procrastination habits, share their stories, or ask questions:
  • Email: joannathecreativepenn.com
  • Comments: thecreativepenn.com podcast show notes

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [27:07] Colleen’s origin story
• [31:56] Why a whole book on procrastination?
• [34:03] Less obvious forms of procrastination
• [38:08] Timed writing exercise to break through avoidance
• [46:53] Guilt as a writer’s obstacle
• [54:50] Perfectionism and its root in fear of failure
• [63:49] Business-side procrastination and finding your marketing strengths
• [70:28] Where to find Colleen online

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Summary

This episode blends compassion, practical wisdom, and real-world strategy for understanding and tackling procrastination at every stage of the writing journey. No matter your writing age, if you’ve felt stuck, overwhelmed, or guilty, Colleen and Joanna provide the tools and encouragement to step forward—one small, self-aware action at a time.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives, I'm Joanna Penn and this is episode number 829 of the podcast and it is Friday 19th of September 2025. As I record this in today's show, I'm talking to Colleen's story about overcoming procrastination. As a writer. We talk about the different kinds of procrastination and how they might occur in your writing life as well as your author business and how to overcome it so you can create what you really want to without being held, fears, perfectionism or other mindset issues. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and publishing and book marketing and personal things. Yes, I'm wrapping everything into one today because I shared my annual blog post this my lessons learned from 14 years as a full time author entrepreneur. So I thought I would go through some of it and share it with you because it kind of covers everything. So I started writing series for publication in 2005. So it is 20 years ago now when I kind of started on this journey, but I actually left my job in 2011. So we're now at 14 years since I stopped implementing accounts payable systems into corporates. And what is so crazy is I did that for 13 years. So I have now been a full time author entrepreneur for longer than I did my previous day job. And that. That does feel quite kind of. Yeah, just really interesting. Now this has not been the same thing at all and obviously I've talked about multiple streams of income over the years, so it's never been exactly the same repeated process as my previous job was. So I used to go into a company, implement a system, we would go live and then I'd go into the next company, do the same thing. So this is a very different kind of life. Obviously now the entire article is on the [e-mail] and you can also look at the previous all the other posts from all the [e-mail] timeline and there all the links go back for many years indeed. And there are different lessons learned every year, some of which are specific to me, some of which might be helpful for you too. So I'll go through a few of them. The first one self Publishing continues to change and there are more choices than ever. So I didn't expect to do this this year, but I updated successful self publishing now in its fourth edition, and it was extraordinary to realise how much had changed over the last couple of years since the third edition. There are more choices than ever in terms of how you get your book into the world and how you reach readers, and that can be daunting, but it can also be a liberating choose your own publishing adventure experience. You can still start with an ebook on Amazon and put it into ku, or go wide with ebook and print and AUD on all book retailers, or produce an audiobook and a hardback and sell in the usual way on all the usual stores. But you can also do so much more now. Direct sales have definitely become a more important part of the indie author business model and personally, at this point I make far more money away from Amazon than from the platform that has been the dominant source of revenue for indie authors for so long. So indie authors have always been a hidden part of the publishing industry and our sales and revenue barely acknowledged by media and industry reports. But it is even more so now. You cannot possibly measure the indie author businesses that are going on right now because they're not on the places that get measured. Kickstarter and other crowdfunding platforms, Shopify and other direct sales stores, subscription sites like Patreon or Substack and many others. They're just not counted in bestseller lists or industry reports. But as ever, indie authors just keep on creating, enjoying our freedom and focusing on our readers and fans rather than industry commentators. I personally have two Shopify stores and have done multiple Kickstarters, the latest of which just finished. But some indies are pushing the boundaries of all of this. My friend Sasha Black, who writes as Ruby Rowe as well as Adam Beswick, both killing it with Kickstarter and Shopify and shipping from their own warehouses powered by TikTok and Instagram rather than paid ads. Also, David Vierg, who's been on this show and started selling horror stories by physical letter in the post, is now expanding into his own epistolary empire with lots more Physical Letter stories coming. So there are many indie authors doing exciting and new things with their writing, publishing and marketing. There is no single business model, so don't let anyone tell you that there is one way to do this anymore. There is not. There are so many. You get to choose your own path or invent a new one. And this is the opportunity and the challenge at the heart of being an indie author. Number two, some creative projects are books of the heart rather than commercial prospects. And that's okay. So my short story collection, the Buried and the Drowned is a really personal project. It means a great deal to me, and there is something tangibly important about having my short stories in print after more than a decade of digital only publication. The book represents a mind shift, a moment when I started writing in a form I didn't even know I wanted to write. But I've grown into writing short stories and look forward to creating them. The stories also contain more fragments of my life than my longer fictional works, and more glimpses into my backstory through my author's notes, which are included throughout. Now, short stories can make money for sure, but like poetry, they're written more from a creative drive than a commercial one, and perhaps that makes them even more precious. And the Buried in the Drowned Kickstarter has now finished, but it will be out as a full collection on jfpenbooks.com from 1st of November and at the usual stores by 1st of December 2025. So if you're coming to this later, jfpen.com buried will redirect number three. Not everything works out as planned, but that's okay too, as indie authors have options. So last year in October 2024, I did a Kickstarter for the gorgeous hardback edition of my folk horror novel Blood Vintage. But then, rather than self publishing it in all formats, the book went out with my agent to major publishers in the US and uk. And I say major publishers because I didn't want a small press deal as I can do what they do myself. So the pitches only went to significance, significant imprints. There were many months of waiting, there were some lovely rejections, but mostly silence. The traditional publishing process is incredibly slow and that in itself was a reminder that it might not be a good fit for me, at least for this book. After nine months I said we needed to set a time limit and then I would take it back. And we have now reached that point. It's basically a year since I first said to my agent, let's take it out. So Blood Vintage is out now. If you wanted to read it you can now. It is available in ebook and print and audiobook. So you can just go to jfpen.com bloodvintage it is on my store at the moment and it's on pre order Everywhere else for 15th of October 2025. So yeah, but you can get it from my store now. I'm actually thrilled to have it back. The book has Some very personal elements. It's set here in my county of Somerset in England and it is an English folk horror novel set at a biodynamic vineyard. Definitely. It's suspense horror, supernatural horror, not violent gore horror. I don't write that. Nothing wrong with it, obviously, but not the kind of horror I write. I write slow burn, supernatural stuff. So yeah, Blood Vintage is now available and so that wasn't the plan, but I'm happy to pivot. Will I try the traditional publishing approach again? Again, good question. Yes, at some point, but probably for a more mainstream kind of thriller. On reflection, Death Valley might have been a better option or a different kind of book altogether. Let's face it, this is very, very niche. But there you go, that's the kind of thing I love to write. So yeah, Blood Vintage available on my store jfpen.com bloodvintage4 some books take longer than others, so I have learned this lesson before as my pilgrimage memoir took three years, my shadow book took almost two decades to emerge as writing the shadow. But it is sometimes hard to figure out which books need more time and it turns out I'm working on another one of those. So over the last 18 months, Jonathan, my husband, has been working on an MBA as well as his day job. So we haven't travelled as much as usual internationally and I've taken the opportunity to work on my Gothic Cathedral book, which many of you have heard about, visiting lots of cities in the uk, researching and taking photos and thinking about how this book might come together. So originally it was going to be a purely photo book, which I then abandoned as I discovered the pain of getting photo permissions. But then ChatGPT became my useful sidekick and with deep research I was able to get a full list of all the contacts at all the cathedrals, as well as a draft letter and a process for doing that. So I then picked it up again. But during my travels this spring and summer, the book has deepened and shifted and I have a lot more thoughts. Thoughts? Yes, thoughts on Memento Mori. Remember you will die. I've become pretty obsessed with stone and because I didn't really know too much about stone before, but I've been really getting into stone and geology and deep time, the nature of change cathedral thinking, which is this very much this long term thinking and how people can work on a project over many lifetimes and not never to see the end of it and what that means. And so right now I have tens of thousands of words of disjointed thoughts and ideas. I also have tens of thousands of photos which I am curating and posting about each cathedral on booksandtravel page. There's a landing page for Gothic cathedrals, English Gothic cathedrals in particular, but I will get to the international ones. This has been an interesting process. I really thought I would have a draft this summer and in fact I told Kristen, my editor, that I would have a draft to her by the end of the summer. But a few weeks ago I told her it wasn't happening. I don't think she was that surprised. This is not a book I can rush. So it might be 2026, it might be 2027, I don't know. This is another book of my heart. It is about as far as writing to market as you can get. It's taken a lot of time in the last few years and it will take a lot more time. But I trust the creative process and I've been in this situation before and I will be. So again, the chaos is part of the fun of discovery writing, so I won't rush it. I'm not going to try to force the book into some kind of shape. I think this is part of the beauty of the kind of Kickstarter model, the independent model, is that I know when I have something, a book, eventually I can use Kickstarter to launch it. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't fit into a niche on Amazon or whatever. It is what it is or it is what it will be. So yes, if you want to see the photos and articles on the Gothic cathedrals, just go to booksandtravel page. You can find the various write ups. And this is a necessary part of any kind of travel based research, is actually visiting places, thinking things, the sort of incubation period. And I hope you enjoy visiting virtually. And number five, sometimes you need to push into a new trajectory. So I turned 50 in March, last March 2025. And so inevitably thoughts of the next decade have flashed into my mind. And you know that I guess a couple of years ago now I started a slow pivot, which I've been sort of moving into. And I've had the need for change for a while. As I said, it's been almost 20 years since I started writing seriously, so 20 years of focus. Also, I mean, I've been doing this podcast pretty hardcore weekly for a while. I've put out a lot of books over many years. And it is time, I think this Gothic Cathedral project as well, my work is deepening and it might be partly a response to what's happening with AI people going faster, which has never interested me. I'm kind of going the other way using these tools to go deeper, think about and write about what matters to humans and one very human thing. And I I've told many of you, have mentioned it to my patrons, but I'm starting as this goes out. In fact, I have now started my Masters in Death, Religion and Culture at the University of Winchester and if you haven't heard that before, yes, Masters in Death, Religion and Culture. Now my first degree is in theology, so this is not so far from my interest. And I have another degree in psychology so this builds on those it is a full time online course, so I will be back to having a day job equivalent in terms of the time I need to focus on something else other than being an author and creative entrepreneur. So next year I'll have to write something like lessons learned from 15 years of not full time writing. But I'm doing this because I need more input and I need variation. I need some push basically. And I want to dig deeper into the big questions that keep coming up in my fiction and my memoir, I guess. The mortality, meaning the sacred. And I've said before I'm not a Christian. I was when I was younger, I'm not a Christian, but I am someone with elements of faith and spirituality and it's part of how I live, I guess. And I want to explore all these areas more rigorously. My top five Clifton strengths are learner, intellection, strategic input and futuristic. And I also have achiever in my top 10. So it is not really a surprise I would seek out another degree. And I feel like there's a lot in this course that will feed into my writing. As J.F. penn, if you know my fiction at all, then this is this is all in the same vein. My Pilgrimage memoir obvious. So the academic environment I know will also challenge me in different ways. For example, I have to use Microsoft things when I'm a Mac person, so that in itself is a challenge. But I've got some of the reading lists now and I'm looking at texts that I might never have encountered. I'm engaging with people and ideas that will stretch my thinking. And yeah, I think this is going to make my writing stronger in a different way. As authors we're always researching, but formal study is a different kind of discipline and whatever happens I know this will generate a whole load of new ideas. And in fact I am already getting them and I'm having to restructure my process of idea logging and just a whole load of things that I'm doing to make allowances for doing this degree. Now you might be wondering what's going to go on here then. Don't worry, I'm not giving everything up. I don't want to just walk away and throw in the towel. I did consider taking a sabbatical, but I don't want to do that and I can't. I don't think I can do that at this point. My process has always been to want to learn things and then to share them. And so I will continue doing that. So I will My community on Patreon is where I will be sharing mostly. I'll also continue to podcast here, although I will be reducing the number of interviews in 2026. I may do more episodes, shorter episodes, and I might also move to every two weeks. I am considering that. I don't know yet. But you can definitely expect a change. I have a lot of content already scheduled for the rest of this year, but you will definitely see a change next year. I'm also not sure whether I will write any books, like publish any new books. I've obviously got these two coming Blood Vintage, obviously already written now being published, and the Buried in the Drowned also being published over the next few months. So the beauty of Checklist is that I can continue to market and still make income. So I'll probably also be talking about book marketing and things like that. I also have multiple streams of income. Thank you to my patrons and podcast sponsors and also my AI assisted artisan author webinars. And I as this goes out, I will have already done the final one for 2025, but I will do some more in early 2026. So just as I come to the end here, it's also a sort of push for you. Perhaps if you're feeling stagnant or like you need a new perspective or a fresh trajectory, maybe consider pushing yourself into something new. It doesn't have to be a degree, of course. That's a little bit. It's quite, quite a big thing. But you could try writing in a new genre or taking a workshop outside your comfort zone, like the metalworking thing I did last weekend, or traveling somewhere new or attending a live event that will push your comfort zone. For example, I will be at Author Nation in November, which is Las Vegas is always a step outside the comfort zone. So perhaps I will see some of you there. And we are having a Patreon meetup. So in conclusion, after 14 years full time and almost 20 years on and off I'm still here, still writing, still learning, still growing, still sharing. I'm so grateful for this weird and wonderful career that lets me explore whatever fascinates me while sharing the journey with others from AI to Gothic cathedrals to death studies. It is quite the ride and I appreciate you so much if you are still hanging out with me. So yes, thank you to everyone, my readers, my Patreon community podcast listeners, to you and everyone who backs my Kickstarters and buys my books. The next year will bring some new challenges and discoveries and I will keep sharing what I learn along the way. I hope you will join me for whatever comes next, so I'd love to hear from you. What lessons are you learning on your author journey? Or any comments about what I've shared, or any questions, you can always email me joannathecreativepenn.com you can leave a comment on the podcast Shaynate and in Other things I am on the Leaders Way podcast this week from the Berkeley Divinity School at Yale talking about my book Pilgrimage and Aspects of Spirituality with Dr. Brandon Nappe and it was lovely to revisit elements of secular pilgrimage and why day after day of walking and living a simpler life can help us navigate when things are difficult. And as I progress through this degree, it's the kind of conversation I'd like to have more of. So that is the Leaders Way, a podcast wherever you're listening to this. So thanks for your emails and comments and photos this week. First up, several people emailed to tell me I have an impersonator on TikTok. So I went to check and actually there were three fake accounts using my photos, my books, my cats, even Gothic cathedral photos. So they're actually pretty good fakes. I have reported the accounts and I was like why are they doing this? I mean some of their videos had quite a lot of views on and everything. But I think what it means is they can then DM people and message people with spam. So please it is definitely not me on TikTok that's for sure. So I've reported the accounts, but yeah, this kind of thing always happens. Thanks to those people who knew I would not be on TikTok and let me know. Shout out to Debbie's dad Jim. Debbie emailed and said he's 89 and a big fan. He's a multi passionate creator who spent his career helping people in developing countries through his job at the United Nations. He's just landed a new creative job at nearly 90 years old. Jim we are very impressed. Pretty amazing what you are doing. So thanks for listening to the show. Charlie on the interview with Kim Boo about fanfiction. People really loved that interview. Says I'm obsessed with One Direction fanfiction and have seven works in progress. I I've been a lover and reader of books since I was a child and no book has ever changed my life and point of view on certain life events like fan fiction has. Wow, that's brilliant. However, I'm also taking a course in creative writing and can completely relate to the struggle being real. Regards to writing outside of the fan fiction genre, I want to thank both of you for raising fanfiction here as it is completely underrated. The authors I've befriended and met that write fanfiction are the most amazing people with the most real life experiences and the world truly does not deserve them. So thank you for raising it. Well, I love that. I must say the passion in the fanfiction community does seem extraordinary. So that is wonderful. Thank you Charlie. And finally, thanks to dawn who sent photos from a Scottish trip. During the trip I researched various historical locations for my historical fiction novel. These pictures are from Kilmuir Cemetery on the Isle of Skye. The large monument is the grave of Scottish heroine Flora MacDonald. Fantastic. And I have not been to Skye. It's so interesting. We will travel to the other side of the earth. And of course I lived in New Zealand for a long time in Australia. So yeah, literally the other ends of the earth. And yet I have not been to Skye. I I do plan to go. It's like one of those places. I definitely will go at some point. Okay, please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the Creative Pen. You can email me, send me pictures of where you're listening, or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. JoannaTheCreativePenn. So today's show is sponsored by Atticus, which helps you write and format stunning books in both ebook and print formats. It works across all platforms so you can use it. Whatever computer you work on, it is safe and secure, you own your own data and it is also backed up to the cloud so you don't have to worry about losing anything. There are other kinds of software that do things separately, but Atticus has everything in one place so you can streamline your process. You can write your book in the editor, built for authors with the ability to drag and drop chapters, manage your book goals and writing habit, tracking, word count, and all the usual writing elements. You can also collaborate with others, a co author, an editor, or an ARC reader. If you want comments on your book you can then use Atticus to format or you can import an existing book to format. There are lots of different templates so you can choose the look and feel or use the custom theme builder and then you can preview your book on a variety of devices so you can see what it will look like. Your export will work with any book market and platform so you can get your book out into the world. Happy authors who use it say it is the one app to rule them all and easy to use for new writers. It's a one time payment and you get 30 days money back guarantee and you can start writing and formatting your books straight away. Check it out now@atticus IO. That's atticus IO. So this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] thecreativepenn thanks to the 13 new patrons who've joined in the last week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering topics on writing, craft and author business as well as tutorials on AI. Last week I shared how to create a PowerPoint presentation from your non fiction book along with a video presentation, script or even a complete video using various AI tools. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join. Join [e-mail] TheCreativePen Right, enough procrastinating. Let's get into the interview with Colleen. Colleen Storey is the award winning author of historical fantasy, supernatural thrillers and motivational books for writers. Her latest book is Escape the Writer's Untangle your procrastination type, discover personalized solutions and transform your writing life. So welcome to the show, Colleen.

[B]

Thanks Joe. It's great to be here. I'm really excited to have this chat today.

[A]

Oh yeah, it's such an interesting topic. But first up, tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing.

[B]

Well, you know, I wasn't one of those people who knew from the time I was in the cradle that I wanted to be a writer. I hear about that a lot that people seem to know early on I did not. I always enjoyed reading and I have fond memories. I don't know if anybody will remember the bookmobile that used to come down the street in our neighborhood. And that was a highlight of my week was going, going out and seeing the books in the bookmobile. And so I was always a big reader, but. And I enjoyed, you know, whenever there was an essay test in school, I was thrilled because I felt like I could do well at those. But I didn't think about writing until I had actually graduated with my music degree. Music came first for me and I graduated with music degree and I had moved to a different state, which gave me a little time to think because when you go to a different state, I would have had to have gone back to more classes to have gotten my teaching certificate in that state. So I just kind of took some time to think. And it was during that time that I got bit by the writing bug. It's just kind of weird how it happened, but it was like out of the blue I wanted to all of a sudden write stories. And I grabbed a word processor, shows you how long ago this was, and started and started writing short stories and within three years had gotten my first short story published. And I got a ten dollar check for it, which felt so awesome I had to frame that and put it up. It's still on my writing desk. Desk. So that kind of changed the whole trajectory of my career because I continue to teach music privately and I still play in the local symphonies and pit orchestras. But as far as my job went, writing just was the thing. So after I got that publication, it was soon after that that a copywriting job opened in my town and I got it and that kind of sent me on this new career. So I started out as a, a corporate copywriter and was promoted to managing editor before I left there. I was there for about three years, but my dream at that point was to write a novel and have it traditionally published. And I knew that as long as I worked for the corporation, I wouldn't have the time to devote to that, that I needed to really learn the craft of writing a novel. So I went ahead and went freelance and so that I could control my, my schedule a bit more. And so I worked on the side for about six months and then turned in my notice. And I've been a freelance writer full since then. So that got me into the business side of writing. And then on the side I was working on novels for many, many years and got my first novel published in 2015. And as of this year I've now published 10 books, both fiction and non fiction. So that's kind of how it happens for me. I almost fell into it accidentally, but I'M really glad I did.

[A]

That's interesting. And so are they all traditionally published or you hybrid now?

[B]

I am hybrid, yes. My novels were all traditionally published until my very latest series, the historical fantasy series. So my first traditionally published. But when I started writing for writers, that kind of happened accidentally too. I had never intended to be a non fiction writer, but when my second novel came out, the publisher, you know, this was back like at 17 it was released, was wanting you to build more of an online author platform. And the one that I had started, the blog I'd started, was not doing very well, so I wanted to try something else. And I ended up combining my day job expertise, which was really as a health and wellness writer, with my passion for creativity. And I created what was then called writing and Wellness. I've since morphed that into master writer mindset. But writing and wellness kind of took off and was doing very well and I started getting invitations to go speak at conferences and workshops and things. And during that time I was really discussing issues with writers and realizing that that they needed some help in different areas of productivity. Time management at that time was what I was looking into. And I decided I wanted to go ahead and write a book on that. But I didn't want to submit it to a publisher because I knew I would have to create a marketing plan and everything for it and then I would have to allow them to change it however they felt that they should. And I kind of knew what writers were looking for at that point. I wanted more control over that book so they could really deliver what my writers and my subscribers were telling me they needed. So that's when I dove into self publishing was with my writing books. And I've done those that way ever since.

[A]

Interesting. So then this book, which is about procrastination specifically, I mean to me it's like, wow, a whole book on procrastination. You were not procrastinating when you decided on this one. But I said to you before we started recording that I personally don't understand procrastination because I just don't suffer from it myself, but I know that lots of other writers do. So when you sent this to me, I was like, oh yes, this is something that writers really do need. So that was interesting. But you don't sound much like a procrastinator. So why did you decide to pick this topic?

[B]

It was interesting and. Right. I never would have thought of myself as a procrastinator, but I typically do surveys of my subscribers and it seems like over the years, I mean I've had, I started the, the writing and wellness. I think it was around 2 2015, so it's been about 10 years. And I will regularly do these surveys and repeatedly the subject of productivity management and procrastination would come back as one of the main things that writers were struggling with every year that I would survey. And so I had done some articles, some blog posts on procrastination. I did a couple of YouTube videos on it. But I kept hearing this come back to me. And I also would talk to writers at conferences and things and, or even at signings. I would have people come up saying I started this book and I never finished it. Or I really wanted to write this book, but I just never did. And I would talk to writers over and over again and just see this haunted look in their faces about this dream that was untapped. They just had not been able to find a way to finish it. And then even those writers who were, had dove in with lots of enthusiasm and maybe were halfway through and then they got stuck or maybe they got almost finished, but then they weren't sure what to do next. And so the, the story would end up sitting there and they would never actually complete that sub cycle. And that made me feel really badly because I know what a joy it is to actually go through, finish the project, put it out there, get feedback, and then be on that road of actually being a writer. There's so many benefits to that, that it just felt so badly for these people who were struggling with the different steps along the way that would lead to procrastination. It's interesting though, as I started doing research for this book, which I did quite a bit that I did learn, learned that I had procrastinated in the past in, in certain ways because procrastination doesn't always look like completely avoiding the project or scrolling your, your TikTok feed while you're supposed to be writing. These are the ways we normally think of what procrastination looks like. And I don't usually do those things, but I learned as I was doing the research that I had done some other forms of procrastination that I didn't realize at the time were procrastination.

[A]

So yeah. So what were they? Now I'm, I'm writing down a list. So what, what, what else, what are the other ways we can recognize it?

[B]

Well, it's kind of like any time that we avoid doing what we know is the next step and it's usually very subtle and devious how procrastination works, this type of procrastination, because even very productive writers can end up procrastinating on things that bring up uncomfortable emotions. Because at its core, procrastination is also is always an emotional coping technique. It is a way to protect us from any sort of uncomfortable emotions we may be feeling around doing a certain task. And so I'll give you an example where I realized it had happened for me was in submitting my work to editors and publishers. So there came a point in my career as I was writing that I had a novel that I felt was. Was potentially good enough to. To get a traditional publishing contract. But I wasn't being serious about taking that next step. I might offhandedly find one publisher, work really hard on the query letter and the synopsis, send it off, get the expected rejection, and then for I wouldn't touch it again for another six months to a year. I was looking back now, I didn't know it at the time, but looking back now, I realized I was totally procrastinating on getting serious about submitting my novel, because I was. And then when I think, when I'm honest about it, it was because I was afraid of getting rejected. And which makes totally sense, all of us are afraid of that. And so I was afraid after all this blood, sweat and tears I put into this novel and put it out there, nobody was going to want it. So my procrastination was protecting me from the reality of potentially being rejected or having this story never be picked up by a traditional publisher. And it wasn't until I finally got ticked off at myself for not getting serious about this that I started really making it part of my schedule. So I would make it part of my weekly writing schedule to research publishers to find their submission guidelines, to create query letters that would go with what they were looking for, to really dig deeper into finding publishers that would fit for my project. And when I finally did that and got serious about it and stopped dancing around it, that's when I got my first publishing contract. So looking back, I could see, okay, I was procrastinating on the part of the, of the job, so to speak, that I needed to tackle. But that brought up uncomfortable emotions. And I've since realized that even very productive writers, I hear this from other writers perhaps in their marketing side of the work that they do, that brings up uncomfortable emotions. So they may avoid that or decide they're too busy for that or just, well, I'm just going to focus on writing and not worry about that we're actually procrastinating on this other part of our craft or business that we know we should be doing because it's uncomfortable for us.

[A]

Yes, well, it's. It's good you're. We're talking about this because I now think back to when I started writing. So when you. You're at the beginning of your writing journey. And I did all the courses, I love learning, and I spent really years doing courses, going to conferences, taking a lot of notes. So I did a lot of writing, but it was all writing notes on other people's talks and things like that.

[B]

That sounds familiar.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And I know this is common. There's people listening who are like, yes, I'm still doing that too. And so perhaps I was procrastinating about actually writing my own work by thinking I was doing all the right stu. You know, I was going to all the conferences, and actually I was going on courses, but I was never writing my own work as such. Or if I did, it was just a tiny piece. And then I remember going to one of the one course and this guy said, okay, before we get started, we're going to do some writing. And he said, the time is starting now. Write for five minutes on the moment where you knew something had happened. Like the moment you knew this thing had happened, happened. And I was like, what? We have to do some writing.

[B]

This isn't what I signed up for.

[A]

Yeah, you meant to tell me more stuff so I can avoid writing. But it was literally that time. It really was.

[B]

To help me avoid my writing.

[A]

Yeah, to help me avoid writing. You have to teach me more. But yeah, so. So I guess that would. That's an example from my earlier. But that moment, then the first after I did that timed writing exercise, that kind of just tipped me over. And I've never struggled with that since. It literally is. If you. If there's an issue, do some timed writing exercises. So if people are listening and they're like, yeah, I recognize myself. How do you get over it? Like, what are some of the things we can do? Like time writing work for me, what are some of the things people can do?

[B]

Well, I think the first thing we have to do is be aware. I mean, because most of us at the time, I certainly wasn't aware that that's what I was doing until I finally got ticked off enough that I was. I need to move forward or I need to forget this. But so I think we have to be aware that what we're doing is actually procrastinating. On the next step we need to take. And that can be, I think, the most difficult part because it's like you said, you didn't feel like you were avoiding anything. I didn't feel like I was. So I think we have to kind of take a step back and say, am I doing what I need to do to progress to the next level I want to get to. If I'm really serious about whatever your next goal is, goal is whether that be selling your self published book or that be trying to get a traditional publishing contract or that be actually finishing this novel, what it, whatever it might be for you, am I really taking the steps I need to take to get to that next place? And I think many times what you were speaking of reminded me of one of the types in my book, which is the overthinker. We think that thinking is going to help us progress. And I have been guilty of that myself in the past. Thinking if I think through things that that's going to help me move forward. And I've since learned that doing is a far better teacher. And it's like you said, once you start doing the writing, that that is, that's going to take you a lot farther. There's an example in my history that I was doing leaving a lot of novels half finished because I would get halfway through, I would get stuck and then I would start thinking about it. And so I would say, okay, well this must not be a very good idea or the idea must, must not be good enough to carry through a novel. So I need to actually think about a new one and start a new one. And I would do that over and over. And it wasn't until I had a mentor talk about how important it was to actually finish the story. You can't learn how to write a story until you finish a story that I realized I was procrastinating that I was not doing what I needed to do to get to the next level, which for me was learning how to tell the complete story. And the only way that I could learn to do that was to to do it that I had to stick with the story I had and go back and study story structure, go get some help from an editor or book coach or do something to help me take it to the next level, which was to actually finish the book. So I think the first thing we have to do is be aware of what we're dancing around or what we're avoiding because it makes us feel nervous or afraid or like we won't be up to this next step, that's often what happens is we don't feel ready for the next next step and we have to bring that into our awareness and then say, okay. I think the best way to always approach it is in the smallest step possible. I talk a lot about giving yourself small wins. So what you said about some timed writing, he asked you to write for five minutes. That's one of my favorites is the five minute rule to sit down and do something for five minutes. And that can apply to most anything. For a lot of writers that are struggling with how can I start building my platform or how can I start marketing this book? Say today I'm going to sit down for five minutes and I'm going to create some graphics for my social media posts. Or today I'm going to sit down for five minutes and I'm going to start researching places where I might be able to promote my book, whatever it might be. Taking little tiny small wins is a way to ease yourself into what this is really about, which is building a new idea identity. Because if we take a look at this seriously, procrastination is a comforting emotional coping tool that keeps us in the identity we are at right now. So if I look back at the example I gave, I was the writer who was not yet published, I was the aspiring writer, I was the writer who wanted to be published. And that was my identity at the time. So there was a lot wrapped up into that. You know, I was comfortable being that person. I was trying to get better at writing. I was trying to finish a good novel. I was trying to create a novel that was good enough to be published. And that was my identity at the time. What I needed to do was step into a new identity of being a traditionally published author. And that is a big step in our brains because we are very used to being who we are and anything that takes us beyond that feels scary to us. So we have to then take a very small step. Step. So the small step, anything that has to do with I want to get here. So what's the smallest step I can take to start down that path? And if we take one little tiny step at a time, we can gradually ease our brains and our identities into this new identity we want to create. If that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah, I like that and it's interesting. I think the five minute thing is also good the other way. So you mentioned before, before, are we avoiding things by for example, scrolling TikTok or for me, I'll sometimes check X or go and look at my feedly list of blog posts and things that I've got on there. And I, I give myself five minutes in that direction sometimes. So it's like, this isn't procrastination. This is a break. This is a break. I think it. These types of behaviors can turn into a way of procrastinating if they go on for an unlimited. Like people are like, oh, look up. And they suddenly they've actually spent two hours on social media or something instead. Right? So, so can we. These forms where we do procrastinating behavior, can we stop that as well?

[B]

Well, what you said sounds. I mean, actually that is something that I recommend to people who have a type of brain that seeks out that novelty, that seeks out that occasional distraction. That's another type of brain I talk about in the book. There is actually a distracted type of procrastination. And I've actually discussed this with, with several different writers who, who do struggle with this, and they have found success doing that very thing, giving themselves a limited amount of time. Okay, so I'm gonna do whatever distracted behavior. I enjoy those various things you mentioned, whatever it might be, but I'm going to do it for a set amount of time. Some people will also trade time, so they'll see, say, 10 minutes of distraction for 20 minutes of writing. So you might have a half an hour blocked out for writing, and 20 minutes of that time will be writing and 10 minutes will be your chosen form of distraction, whatever that may be. One of the things I talk about in the book a lot, and in my, my videos too, is this importance of self understanding. The being able to understand the kind of creative brains that we have. Because I've learned over the research of this book and just over my experience working with different writers that we are all so very, very different. We, we all often talk about what we have in common as far as being writers go. But we're all very different in how our brains work and how our creative selves operate. And knowing how they operate and what they need to operate at their best can really help us improve our productivity and take that next step into the next identity that we want to reach. So finding out that this is something that you need or that you enjoy or that helps you stay on, on task can be a good piece of knowledge that you can then turn around and say, okay, how can I use this to help myself be more productive?

[A]

Yeah, I think that's so important, this self understanding. I. I spoke to someone recently and she was almost having guilt over not writing. Like guilt seems to be a massive thing in the writing community. Oh, I didn't write. Therefore I feel guilty. Which is crazy because there are a lot better things to feel guilty about, I think, than not writing. But it's so interesting.

[B]

It's very real though.

[A]

Yeah, it is very real. And yet what you're saying there is this. I think the self understanding is like not beating yourself up over this. It's trying to figure out who you are and what works for you and then figuring out a way that will make it work for you if you like. If you really do want to write a book, for example, then you have to figure out your type as such. So maybe you could give us a couple more of the common types that you found.

[B]

Well, let's talk about the great one that you just brought up there. I do actually have a guilty type in.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Because this is so pervasive in the writing community, I, I saw this many, many years ago. I did a blog post on, on writing guilds and just punched it in at Google at the time, Writers guild. And I was shocked about how many posts came back. I was like, wow, this is huge in the writing community community. And it's this thing that so many of us writers seem to carry around with us. It's like we're guilty when we're writing and we're guilty when we're not writing. Many people end up in this place so they feel guilty if they don't get the writing done. But then if they actually set the side, the time aside for themselves to write, then they feel guilty about what they're not doing when they're writing. Whether that be for their family, for being celibate or. Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So it's this really mean, double edged sword that can just tear a person's, you know, whole motivation for going after this dream down into shreds. So in the book I talk about guilt as, as it relates to that, but also as it relates to procrastination. You procrastinate on your writing for whatever the reason is. There are many different reasons. And then you feel guilty that you procrastinated. So you come back and try to restart your writing process. But that guilt gets it in the way and you're feeling bad about everything you haven't done that you should be at this certain point in your book or whatever it might be. And that kind of tends to destroy the joy you might have brought to writing for that day. So there's all kinds of coping techniques for that. One of them is Just that you have to always allow yourself to start fresh. Always allow yourself to start fresh. And then if you're someone who is. Is tends to feel guilty one way or the other, whether you're writing or not. I think that often is a case of not allowing yourself to follow your dreams. There's a. A whole thing about people pleasing that I'm going to talk about on YouTube because I was definitely a people pleaser for a long time that we have to reckon ourselves with. We have to say, okay, my dreams matter too. And this is one of the things I'm really passionate about helping writers with. Because as you and I know, having lived the writing life, we realize all the benefits that come from devoting your life to a craft like writing. It's not just about finishing the books or having something to leave behind you. It's all the ways that it shapes you. It helps you become. You know, there's studies proving that regularly writing helps to shape your brain. It helps you to become smarter in a lot of ways. It increases the connections in your brain. It makes you more empathetic. Studies have shown that as well, that you tend to overcome difficulties and challenges along the way because we all know how difficult the world writing life can be. You become a more resilient and stronger person. So there's. And then you're always expressing yourself through writing, which can really be. Even if you're not writing about your own life experiences, it can be really therapeutic. So people that are robbing themselves of that by not allowing themselves to take their dreams seriously aren't just robbing themselves of the book they may write, they're robbing themselves of the people they could be becoming by going through the process of writing and completing a book and perhaps publishing it. So I try to emphasize to people that if you have a dream to write, there's usually a deeper reason for it besides just that you want to write a book. There's usually, I feel something kind of calling. It's like a calling to your soul that is asking you to step up and be even more than perhaps you are right now. And if you deny that, if you say, well, it's not that important, or what other people want me to do is more important, or you feel guilty because you're making room in your life for that. Imagine if you had a friend who was doing that and you could see this in, in this friend wanting to come out. You can see that this is where this friend needs to go in their own personal development, and they're denying themselves that it's really a crime because it's kind of like you're robbing this person of their ability to self actualize at an even higher level. So it I try to impress upon on people to give your dream the, the position it needs in your life so that you understand that making it a priority is not about being selfish or self indulgent. It's about your own development, about becoming the best person you possibly can be. And if that dream is there and has been there especially for, for the person you were Talking about for 30 years, that dream has not left. And there's a reason why for that. And I believe there's kind of a soul calling reason for that. Whether people believe that or not, it doesn't matter. Giving yourself that importance in your dreams and allowing yourself that time is going to make you a happier person. So I would just suggest again a small win, set aside 15, 20 minutes, however many days of the week that you can make it and start making that a priority and don't allow anyone to take that time away from you. And you will start to see how beneficial it is for yourself, how much better you feel, how much, how much more whole as a person you feel. Because we've all experienced it as writers when we actually make the time and we honor that part of ourselves, how, how much better people we are. And so once a person starts doing that, they'll realize that they're a better person not only for themselves, but for everyone around them. So that's a little bit about the guilty type.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's interesting, I mean you said there about, think about it as another friend or something, you wouldn't knock down their dream. I kind of think that we also, our creative selves like children like you. There's the child inside you who wants to write. And as you say, this kind of calling, creative calling that we have had for a long time whenever it came up in our lives. And you had it for music at the beginning and then it came for writing, writing and for me probably was always writing and like you would never say to like a six year old or an eight year old, no, go and do some accounting or something like encourage, you know, you encourage. Nothing wrong with accounting, but I mean you wouldn't say to a little six year old, no, you can't go write a story or you can't go play with words or play music or whatever. And we encourage that behavior in children. And so I think when we squash down that creative self in our, in our own lives, it can Almost feel like, yeah, that growth is stunted somehow, or there's this. This kind of sad child inside that just really wants to play with words or play with music or. And so we want to help that and facilitate that. As you say, find the. Find that joy.

[B]

Exactly. And I think when you become an adult, I would almost say it's even more important than I think that it is in children because of the many benefits I see that in people and that the studies have found in people. When you write and you write regularly, the fact that you become. It's hard to describe when you've gone through a lifetime of writing as you and I have, but it's kind of like the imagining myself not having devoted my life to the craft of writing and everything that entails. I mean, you go through the process of just writing a stage story is a huge thing that happens in your brain when you learn how to do that, and that happens with your empathy. Studies have found that we become more empathetic as we write about different characters, and we have to be in their skin as we write about them. And we go through the process of actually completing this story and then we publish it, and then we get feedback, and then we go back and do it again. This is all very much a personal development thing that happens, happens. And so we are becoming better versions of ourselves through this whole process. And if, like you say, if we squash it down, then we're denying ourselves that ability to become that person. It's almost like we kind of sit there and we stay at the same level rather than growing, which we would hope to do throughout our lives.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so one more type. Do we have one more type? That. That you're like. Yeah, that. That one I definitely want. Want to talk about.

[B]

Yes. And that would be the perfectionist. I think when I was asking writers to complete the questionnaire that I have in the story and making sure that it was all coming out accurate and everything, a great number of them were coming back as the perfectionist types. And in my book, just so people know, there usually isn't just one type, there usually is maybe one or two primary types. But I, when I was doing this, checking with. With writers and how having them take this quiz, I often found that many of them were a blend of perhaps two or three more types. And I talk about the blend and how that operates in. In your writing life. But many of them had the perfectionist in there. It was either their primary type or perhaps their secondary type. The whole thing about perfecting our work And I think, and I've always known that I was a perfectionist as well. And so many writers came back with that. And so it's like one of these again, it's kind of like the, the guilty type that seems very perfect, pervasive among writers as creators. And so I looked into that research a little bit more carefully and what I discovered surprised me and has helped me with my perfectionism as well is is that perfectionism really at its core is a huge fear of failure. So we often think when we're perfectionists, we're like, well, I just want this project to be as good as it can be. And there is a lot of that in there. I mean, often perfectionists do put out very high quality work. But there's also behind that, if we are so perfectionist that we are endlessly tweaking and here's draft number 75, and we're not taking that next step to share our work, what's really at the core of that is this huge fear of failure. And so in perfectionist writers, I feel like one of the big things they have to help themselves with is to gather the courage to take the risk that they need to take, take. Because one thing that I've learned over my writing career, the more that I risk failure, the less of a big deal it seems to be. So I'm more willing now to go out and try things that I may fail at or some new marketing technique or some new author platform building thing, or some different type of book or story. Because now I realize that failure is not as big a deal. In fact, failure is great. It's a good way for us to learn. But when you're in the early, the early stages of being a perfectionist, that can really hold you back because you're just constantly one. One example that I hear often from writers is they're on the same book. They've been working on this first book that they wrote for 10 years because they got to make this book just perfect. And they have this belief that this one book is going to kind of be their writing career. And I understand that because I did that too. I really focused on that book number one. Book number number one was going to be what launched me into my novel writing career, which looking back now to me seems really silly. Book number one is basically just practice. And book number one was, you know, after I had written seven half finished manuscripts and I finally managed to complete one that I felt was good enough for publication and it did get published, but still looking back at it, now it's like, okay, well, that was just practice. We start to realize the more we do and this is going back to that thing that doing is so much better than thinking, doing the book and going to the next book and going to the next book. And perfectionists tend to really get caught up, especially young writers, in that first book and not taking the long view of, okay, do you want to be a writer for life? Then you want to be thinking about book 5, book 10, book 15 down the road. And when we think that way, we are less likely to be so nitpicky about that first one. Yes, make it as high quality as you can, but have a time limit, you know. You know, have this book. I'm going to give myself one year or two years or whatever it is to finish it, and then I'm going to move on and I'm going to risk failure. I'm going to risk perhaps this not being perfect or perhaps it not selling millions of copies or whatever our dreams might be for it. Because I know that this is about my experience and getting better and developing my skills as a writer. And I do that by writing the next book.

[A]

Yeah, I, I actually get really annoyed at this kind of my book is my baby metaphor. Because the problem is if you, if you use. I mean, obviously babies are very precious and special when they're with you for a long, long time and all of that. And so you attach the kind of emotional language around a book. Whereas I, and I know, I think that's partly relates to what you're saying. People just get obsessed with this one book for years and years and years. But the more you write, and I mean, like, I have a lot of books now too, and it's, it's sort of their employees, actually. Once, once they're finished and they go out in the world, they're employees.

[B]

Think of it. I haven't thought of it that way.

[A]

Yeah, they're assets, that. They're intellectual property assets and they earn me money. So therefore they're employees. Now, of course, I didn't think about that at the beginning of my career, but it feels like a much. Yes, I do the best job I can on every single book, but I'm not so emotionally attached, you know, to them, I think in the same way, way. So as you say, it's changing the attitude and I agree with you. There's so many people who just fixate on one book for a really long time. And also, I think you, you don't think you have any more ideas. And I Remember that? I remember that from the beginning of my career. It's like, well, I'll never have any ideas. But the truth is once you clear that pipe, that's how I call it, it's like a pipe. And you just need to clear that first blockage out the way and then that pipe just keeps flowing, the ideas keep flowing, but you need to kind of un, unblock it with that first book.

[B]

Oh, so very true. And, and I was going to say, even if you do remain emotionally connected, which I think many of us do, I'm emotionally connected to my stories. The, the whole thing of finding the courage and risking getting that book out there is such a good skill to develop because once you put it out there and, and you realize, like you say that the pipe is now open and you're off working on book number two, suddenly book number one is not as important to you. You're now at attached to book number two. And it happens that way with every single one that you go on and do next. Your next book is the one that you're really emotionally invested in. So I think that's the other thing we don't see when we're just starting out is that this same sort of investment could apply to a different child, so to speak. Or if that's how we look at our work, we could apply to the next story that we're doing. We think this is the only one in our lives which is just a short sighted way of looking at it. So I would, I would, I try to encourage young writers to try to take that longer view and like you say, to, to realize that they have a lot more in them than just the one book. And I think the other big, big problem with that approach is that then when you finally do get it out there, if it doesn't fulfill all of your dreams, it is so hugely crushing and is so discouraging for young writers to have put all this stuff in there, maybe 10 years, years, 15 years, 20 years on one single book and then you finally get it to where you think it's amazing and you put it out there and it doesn't do everything you wanted it to do, then you, instead of realizing this was book number one and I have a lot more in me and I need to keep going and get better and go on and have this writing life, you think, oh, well, this wasn't what I thought it was going to be, so I guess I better just quit because it becomes such a crushing defeat, if that makes sense. So I think trying to, to Re reprogram kind of your thinking into there will be another one that I can be invested in. There will be the next project. And the important thing is to get this out and give myself the time to do these other books that are going to come along afterwards is going to help you retain much more of your courage and your motivation as you move forward than if you put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak.

[A]

Yeah. You've used the phrase young writers a couple of times, just to be clear, for people. You mean people who, who have a low writing age, as in people who are still on one book, you know, or only started writing last year, whatever their actual age. They might be 65.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But still a young writer. I think that's really important. Yeah. And then you just said something like, and if that book doesn't fulfill all the dreams you had for it, then you might be disappointed. And I'm thinking, how likely is it that any book fulfills dreams?

[B]

Right. But I mean, I remember thinking that when I was first starting out that this book was. And I hear that from so many writers there. Here's draft number 20 of the first book that they're working on. And what really kills me is when it's book one in a series and they've still got book two and three to write and they're putting all their. Their eggs in this basket. And I can just see this huge fall coming in the future, and I don't want that to happen.

[A]

Well, I guess we've talked about that writing craft side, but I'm also interested around the business side because you said earlier that you did procrastinate around sending out the book and pitching and that kind of thing. And I feel like writers also procrastinate on marketing. So you write fiction and nonfiction. You're also a freelance writer. So how do you tackle marketing and the business side and what might people procrastinate in. Around. Around that.

[B]

And. And yeah, I. I feel like that is a huge side of it that I. I wouldn't have really thought about procrastinating, applying to before I did the research for this book. And I am definitely a good candidate for this because I'm more on the creative side. I was not looking at this as a business early on. This has been something that I've tried to then develop later in my career because I've always had my freelance writing job to kind of COVID the bills, so to speak. So the writing was my creative outlet on the side. But then as I've grown as a Writer and, and have several books now and have gotten older, kind of been looking at the future. I'm like, boy, I really would like this to be more in the business side of what I do. Also, I'm, I'm experiencing changes now because as AI comes on, the whole freelance writing industry is going through a lot of big upheavals and changes. And so as I look at, at that, I think, okay, well I need to tackle the business side of this as well. And I've always had that along there as far as I have built author platforms that have, have grown and I've got a subscriber list and I'm doing all those things. But I, I find that the marketing things that work change so often that it becomes like this whole other part of, of what we do as creatives that we need to learn about and get, and get better at as we go. And so for me it's become very, very much a self education thing. And I'm learning and then I'm doing and I'm learning and I'm trying something else and I'm learning and trying something else. And I think the whole thing of being willing to risk failure really comes in huge on the marketing side because so again, it's a, it's like what's going to work for you personally? Maybe you are really good at creating a blog and that becomes your platform. Maybe you are better at doing YouTube videos and that becomes your platform. Maybe you do a podcast like you do and that becomes how you reach people. At the end of the day, marketing is just about trying to introduce our work to more people. So it's like, how do I do that and how, what are my natural strengths and how can I apply those to the, to the marketing side of things? And I think most writers are uncomfortable with this because we never learned how to do this. Many of us are not natural business people or marketing people. That's not something we've done in our, our past. We were drawn to the creative side, but the business side seems very foreign to us. And so many writers will come to me at workshops and say I'm bad at marketing. And I don't think that that's it necessarily. I think we just didn't learn how to do this. And perhaps we're not naturally gifted at it, but that doesn't mean that we can't educate ourselves and put ourselves out there. And so I think for me the key has been just trying this and trying that and the more I do that, the more marketing because becomes Fun because it's like experimentation and trying different things to get word about my book out there and then just seeing what works and going back and analyzing the results and then doing more of what does and less of what didn't so much. So for me, I'm definitely not a master marketer by any means and I'm always listening to the Creative Pen podcast so that I could learn more about all of that and some others on the novel marketing podcast and some of those others that I'm always told turning in tuning into, I've kind of made it part of my writing life now. I think that's another key for writers is just to bring that marketing side in more often in what you're exposing yourself to and working into your weekly timeline of what you're tackling so that you have writing time, but you also have marketing time. That's how I'm tackling at this point. I don't know if that really answered your question, but that's where I'm at.

[A]

Yeah, well, I think, I mean even that you said you listen to podcast and here you are on the podcast because I feel like people and I have had this over feeling like I should be doing, I mean Tick Tock is the obvious one we should be doing, you know, video and I'm like, I did try and literally my friend Sasha Black got on the phone with me, tried to help me do it and then. And so I had a Tick Tock account for about six hours and it just, I just hated it. I hate it. And also, but the main thing is, like you said, I don't consume short form video. Not on Instagram, not on YouTube, not on tick Tock, not anywhere. I don't really watch video and. But I listen to a lot of podcasts and so whether this has all become one because I've been podcasting so long. But the fact is, of course I can do podcasting and I listen to podcasts so I know the medium and it suits me and it's what I enjoy, the longer form discussions. Whereas somebody who loves being on TikTok as a consumer would also be better at it as a creator. So we have to think about it that way, don't we? We can't do everything. You just have to find what works for you.

[B]

You're exactly right. And this again comes back to that self knowledge. What are we, what do we naturally grab at Tate Tour and what are we good at and what do we enjoy? Personally, I enjoy doing YouTube videos. I didn't think I would But I saw that YouTube was a place where you could connect, connect with people, and I started picking that up. I'd had the channel for a while, but I hadn't done much with it. But last, last August actually, I decided to get serious and start posting once a week. And I found that I really enjoy that, that format. It seems a little similar to blogging to me, which I did well with my blog on my platform. And now it seems like video is kind of becoming even more of an immediate way to reach people, especially in an age of, of AI. So the long inform video, kind of the educational type videos I've taken to. And I think people have to decide what, what is going to work best. And I think often the only way you can figure that out is to try it. You just have to give it a try. And the good thing is, I think the biggest thing that's helped me is most people don't care. They're not watching you. They're. You know, when I first, first thinking about getting on video, I'm like, oh my gosh, people are going to see me and this is going to be scary and all that. But you realize after you do it that it's really hard to build, build an audience and you have to get serious about it and you have to have a regular plan for how you're doing it. It has to be in your being, your writing life regularly. So one video, two videos, three videos is pretty much probably going to be ignored. We can, we can assume that. So that kind of takes some of the fear out of it. It's like, oh, go ahead and try it, see what happens. If you have a inclination to do short form video, give it a try, see how it goes. You're not going to get 50 zillion views on your first or second or third video, most likely, but you can determine if you enjoy it. Do you enjoy this type of creative outlet? Do you enjoy blogging? Do you enjoy creating graphics and things on social media? Now one of my writing friends just loves Instagram and is always creating reels and things for Instagram. Not really my cup of tea. I found out that that's not really where my interests lie. But again, it's just finding try these different things and see what works for you and what helps you to connect with new readers.

[A]

Fantastic, right? So where can people find you and your books online?

[B]

My writing motivational site is masterwritermindset.com and then my author site is just my name, Colleen M. Story.com and people always ask me that is my real name.

[A]

My dad like me with pen. That's right.

[B]

It's cool how often that happens. Actually Those are my two main websites. I am on YouTube at Colleen M. Storyteller and there is actually a free quiz that people can take that's related to the procrastination book that's on my website right now that's called MasterWriteMindset.com find yours brilliant.

[A]

Well, thanks so much for your time Colleen. That was great.

[B]

Thank you Joel. It was great to be here.

[A]

So I hope you found the discussion with Colleen interesting and I think we all have procrastination how happening at some point in our writing craft or our author business, or just our lives in general. Let me know what you think. Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel, or email me joannathecreativepenn.com Send me pictures of where you're listening or your favorite cemetery or churchyard. Next Monday. I'm talking about Amazon Advertising with Jeff Affleck, what you need to have in place before you use ads, when ads will work best, and much more. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free Author [e-mail] Blueprint if you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X at the Creative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook at Jfpen. Author Happy writing and I'll see you next time.