B (30:25)

Thank you, Jo. It's lovely to be here.

A (30:27)

Yes, I'm excited to talk to you today. But first up, tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

B (30:34)

Well, I was one of those kids, kids who always had their nose in a book, you know, loved reading. Whenever anyone said what are you going to be when you grow up? I would say a writer, like straight away, no question about it. So that was always the plan. But in my late teens I changed schools for sixth form. I went to this school that was really strong on performing arts and I started to get into drama and doing lots of acting in school plays and at university started dating directing plays, which was even more fun than acting. And I just found myself pursuing a different path and became a theatre director for about 15 years. And that was really creatively exciting. But after a while I started to feel something was, was missing, I guess. And of course the writing had been completely sidelined. But I, I came back to it and I started writing again. And first of all, I started working on a literary novel that I was trying to craft with extremely beautiful language and lovely sentences. And when I got to the end of the draft and I read it, I realized it was incredibly boring because nothing happened in the book. So I put that in a drawer and I started again and I started working on another one and I was crafting my sentences. And anyway, fortunately about halfway through that one one I had this idea, this story came to me about a 15 year old kid in a dystopian future and it had to be a young protagonist and it had to be a YA book and I just really wanted to tell this story. So I chucked the boring literary half written draft in, in that same drawer and, and started working on the YA book. And that's, that's where I really started to sort of find my voice, as it were.

A (32:21)

And where did it go from there? When was that?

B (32:24)

Oh gosh, before the pandemic. Which is kind of how we judge everything time wise these days, isn't it? I think it was 2019 that I was a finalist in the Mislexia Children's fiction competition with that manuscript. So I'd obviously written it before then and then through that competition got an agent and I'd written it, wrote another book. I got a publishing deal with a Smith Lindsay publisher called Neem Tree Press.

A (32:50)

So yeah, and I wanted to talk to you about this. So you were a finalist and Mislexia, if people don't know a very prestigious magazine here in the uk, you got an agent, you got a deal. So what happened then? What happened with the publishing experience?

B (33:09)

Well, I think the term is probably roller coaster. I was really excited to sign this contract and obviously to have this publishing contract, but what happened was publication obviously takes a long time, so it was going to be 18 months or so before the book came out. After about a year of this process, Neem Tree Press merged with a much bigger UK publisher called Unbound. And they were saying how great this was because obviously there are advantages of scale, like wider distribution to bookshops, that kind of thing. And I don't think that Neem Tree Press quite realized how much financial trouble Unbound was in when they merged and essentially Unbound folded and took Neem Tree pressed down with them. And so the two books that I've been so excited to get published with, Neem Tree have not been published. However, on the plus side, the wrong rights have reverted to me and now I can do what I want with them. So they will be coming out, just not with Neem Tree Press. And the good thing was is that in the meantime I'd got on with writing another YA book and that has been published by Habitat Press. So I carried on writing.

A (34:24)

The thing is, we hear this over and over again like there's pros and cons with small press versus big house houses. And one of the benefits of A big house is. It's very unlikely to go under. But one of the benefits of small press is you get a lot more attention and you know the people and you feel it's a much more personal process and there's pros and cons every which way. But over the years, I've been in publishing almost 20 years now, so many small press companies either get bought or things happen. Things happen. Let's just say things happen. So this happens. Happened. How did you deal with this, like mentally and thinking about whether it was all going to happen? Because obviously writers look forward to their publication and you're going through this process. So how did you deal with all that time?

B (35:08)

As I say, it was, it was really up and down. And there were some months early on where I was, I was really down about it because I just didn't hear anything. I think that was the most frustrating thing is I'd be sending emails saying, when are we going to start on the end edits? And just not hear anything. So it felt like I was sort of being ghosted, you know. But the, the positive thing I think was that because of listening to your podcast and doing lots of research into indie publishing, I'd already decided that even if I had a traditional publishing deal, I was going to pursue my author business in an entrepreneurial way. So I'd already decided, you know, why can't a traditionally published author have a reading reader magnet, for example? So I got on with doing things in the meantime. I wasn't just waiting. And I think if I just waited, it would have been really crushing. But as it was when I finally had the sort of confirmation that Neem Tree Press had closed and there was no chance of the books being published, what I felt was, was relief and a sense of almost kind of empowerment. I was like, well, thank goodness the books are mine again. Now I can get on with publishing, publishing them.

A (36:20)

That's really interesting. I think that empowerment, it's such a good energy and being long time indie. I think that empowerment and that sort of, I can do this. And like you said, I got on with doing things. Yeah. If you're a doer and you like doing things, then being an indie author is a good, is a good thing because you can move at your pace. And let's face it, even if you do get a deal with whoever, the person who cares the most about your book is you.

B (36:45)

Exactly, exactly. And, and I think just that feeling of, I'm not going to wait for permission anymore. Had enough of that. But Habitat Press, who Brought out Dirt, my new book. They've been a joy to work with because they're much more flexible and collaborative and so I, I don't feel like I've given up all my power working with them. So that's really nice.

A (37:06)

But you're going to self publish those other two tbc.

B (37:10)

I'm hoping that one of them might come out with Habitat Press and one of them will be self published. Publish. That's the current plan. But I'm waiting for Habitat Press to read the, the Greener one.

A (37:18)

Because the Captain Press is. Yeah.

B (37:20)

Environmental kind of publisher.

A (37:22)

Yeah. Well, let's talk about that. Because your novel Dirt is eco fiction or climate fiction and this is turning into a bit of a niche. So tell us, what are the hallmarks of that genre and how can authors write in important areas but not bash people over the head with a message?

B (37:44)

That is so important, isn't it?

A (37:46)

Yes.

B (37:46)

So climate fiction, I mean, I'd say it's any story with a focus on environmental or climate issues. So it could be a thriller, it could be a romance, it could be crime fiction. It's a really kind of broad, broad genre. But from my perspective, when I think about it, the key thing is climate solutions. It's about looking forward to joyful possibilities and about kind of normalizing positive action. So not writing a book to tell everybody to buy an electric car or something, but just kind of in the world building, embedding things like solar panels or heat pumps or whatever as just normal parts of life. And course in my books, because I tend to write near future dystopias, it's really easy to imagine a future where say, everyone gets all their energy from renewable energy. So the eco element, it's in the background and just taken for granted rather than trying to, trying to preach, if that makes sense.

A (38:52)

That's interesting because I know Habitat Press wants a positive spin on it. But I was thinking one of the books I've read, I guess a few years ago now, the Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson, that is, I don't think, a positive book.

B (39:10)

I know, I know that book. I love that book. Yeah, I know what you mean. I mean, it has one of the bleakest beginnings.

A (39:17)

Yeah. Pretty bleak.

B (39:18)

Yeah, I think. Yeah. But it stayed with me. I have never forgotten that book. But what I would say about that book is it is absolutely packed with ideas for ways of moving towards a better future. He's got all kinds of economic innovations and ideas about blockchain and how world banks could work together. So I would say, although it's in the action and the plot, there are bleak elements. I mean, overall, I would call it really, quite, really quite hopeful. And I mean, I sort of got into all this through the Green Stories Project Project. And they run free writing competitions encouraging writers to explore embedding climate solutions into their work. And of course Habitat Press kind of emerged out of the, the Green Stories Project. I think you interviewed Denise from Habitat Press some years ago. So I mean, one of the things that. Another thing that they did, which I really thought was really fun was the Green Store Story's collaboration with BAFTA on climate characters.

A (40:22)

I don't know about that. Tell us about that.

B (40:24)

They were comparing fictional characters with high and low carbon lifestyles. So they took like James Bond versus Jack Reacher.

A (40:33)

Jack Reacher, yeah. He just has a toothbrush.

B (40:35)

Exactly. And he spends his money on like coffee and public transport and. Whereas James Bond is all like jet skis and smart suits and expensive cars and so. And I mean, I love both those characters. Characters, of course, but if you're looking at what you glamorize in your fiction, it's a choice that, that you can make. So in, in one of my books, I, I have all the rich kids at school wearing Carpos trainers. And Carpos in my sort of future world is short for carbon positivity. And so they're carbon positive trainers that have absorbed more carbon in the, the manufacture than they've emitted. And that's this massive status symbol. So the cool kids all have carpods. And then of course my protagonist, who's not a rich kid, his trainers are just newt, which means like carbon neutral. And I like that's not what the plot is about. But I like the idea that in a world where legislation has said that all manufacturing processes have to be carbon neutral, it becomes a state of symbol to be sustainable. Like who can be the most eco.

A (41:40)

Yeah, I, I absolutely agree. So I think that's a good sort of pointer is put it in the world building. Don't lecture. You don't have to have characters lecturing other characters about their behavior. Which I feel like is one of the bad things with any movement is bashing people over the head with stuff as opposed to trying to put things into stories that it's almost invisible but yet still impactful, I suppose.

B (42:09)

Yeah. I think Denise at Habitat Press talks about smuggling the messages in. You know, that you want the book to be exciting because it's got great characters and a great story and that the, the eco stuff is incidental almost. But there's Just a little bit of a mind shift going on in the way that you construct the world of the book.

A (42:27)

So I wanted to come onto your theories. Background. Well, first of all, I should ask, so did you write any plays or were you more in the directing thing?

B (42:36)

Mainly, mainly directing. But I did do some devised productions when I was directing and so I did write some scripts for those. I wrote several scripts for actually for children's plays which were kind of adaptations. And then in it was in 2019, I devised and wrote a play for a London new writing festival called this Play Will Solve Climate Change.

A (43:02)

Yeah, that's a bit more on the nose as a title.

B (43:04)

It was, yeah, it was a full on activist kind of physical theater, experimental production. It was really fun and it was perhaps a kind of a step back towards writing for me.

A (43:14)

Yeah, well, because this is interesting, right? So I write a novel, you write a novel and we can upload it to Amazon, let's say the very basic thing you can do is upload it to Amazon, people can buy it and you get some money with a play. It just isn't like that, is it? I mean, is there anything like a sort of self publishing scene in the theatre world?

B (43:37)

I have to say, not that I know of with scripts at all. In fact, with the, with the climate change play that I wrote, I actually set up a little theatre company around that time and we called ourselves Reusable Theatre and the idea was that our scripts could be reused by anyone, anywhere because we wanted to generate more of this kind of work. But I mean there are theatre makers all over the place generating their own productions and putting, putting on work independently. So. So yes, but I don't think anyone's making any money out of it. Is the difference.

A (44:11)

No, exactly, because. Because people don't really. I mean there are obviously people buy scripts and put schools and stuff. Usually you have to buy the certain text or whatever, but people don't really shop for plays, I guess.

B (44:24)

So I don't think so.

A (44:26)

Yeah, so yeah, it's different, it is difficult. So I'm glad you've discovered the business of books. But in terms of if people are interested in adaptation, like you said there, you did some adaptations. What are some tips for writing stories that could be more easily adapted into theatre or, or even just brought alive in with marketing, with images and that kind of thing?

B (44:49)

That's a really interesting question because I think in, in some ways theatre is a really expansive, inventive storytelling mode. So. So you can almost put anything on stage. But what I would Say is I think it's primarily about. About theatre and film being really being visual mediums. And this is often the case in marketing as well, isn't it? So it's about finding those really striking images and just thinking about your plot. Are there key moments that have really clear, vivid images attached to them? I think I'm often really inspired by images. So there was a play I directed once simply because I love, loved the opening image on stage. And it was 18th century garden in Lambeth with an apple tree. And there were two figures, a man and a woman, sitting in the tree with their backs to the audience, both completely naked. And I just thought this was such a kind of striking image. And of course, we didn't have a tree on stage. We. We had apples suspended from invisible threads. So the actors were sitting on a step ladger and a swing sort of in this kind of cloud of apples. And it was really beautiful. And I guess that that's the kind of thing you're thinking about with, with dirt. That whole book really started with an image for me. There's an expanse of desert, a single road running through it. A girl wearing a sun hat as big as a bicycle wheel cycling alone along that road towards us. And that was like the first idea for the story in my head. It was kind of like a western, you know, a stranger rides into town. So that's, that's where my inspiration, I think, often comes from. And I think that does translate well into, into marketing, for instance.

A (46:39)

Yeah. And I guess another thing is dialogue, because if you're on the stage, then you're gonna have to have some people speak speaking. So you've probably read a heck of a lot of very bad dialogue or heard dialogue that might look okay on, on the text. Then an actor tries to perform it and it sounds terrible. So how can we identify bad dialogue? And any tips for writing it better?

B (47:03)

Yes, I've certainly encountered some terrible dialogue. I think. I think for me, the clunkiest is when characters say things without motivation just to further the plot. So. And I get, I get students doing this in my acting classes. Sometimes they'll be improvising and they'll say something like, oh, Uncle Bernard, how good to see you after you've spent 10 years in Australia. I'll be like, bernard knows he's been in Australia and he knows it's been a long time. So the character, like, there's just no reason for them to say that. And it always tells me that the actor is being super conscious of the audience trying to Convey information rather than getting into the character skin. And I think with dialogue, it's about really immersing yourself, getting in there in the character's head. What is the character's attitude to this situation? What's their relationship to the other people? How are they feeling? And then you get that kind of, what would I say if I was this person in this situation? And that's where the dialogue should be coming from. And I think you really hit on it, Jo, when you said it's reading it aloud. You know, it can read well on the page, but to test it, read it aloud and better get other people to read it aloud for you. I mean, in. In theatre, it's standard practice. You've got a new script, you workshop it. Get a load of actors. Playwright sits with a red pen and their script and listens and scribbles all over the script while the actors read it out.

A (48:31)

Yeah, it's funny. I've actually just yesterday finished the audiobook of Blood Vintage, which is my folk horror novel, and I've done it with 11 labs using my voice clone, which is very, very good. So it's very strange because I'm listening to myself and then I'm. I direct myself the AI, and I've actually rewritten bits and bobs of dialogue because even my own voice clone can't do it properly. Wow.

B (48:58)

Wow, that's brilliant. It is.

A (49:00)

It's really funny. And the other thing. Thing that I found, and again, like, I've literally just sort of discovered this is at the end of chapters. Sometimes I've rewritten things in order that they sound. That they end on us with a certain sound, as opposed to how they can be. They can end in the text. And you would have come across this too. Is that written there can be sounds that written down. Don't look like they match, but when you speak them, the sounds resonate with each other and they're. It just sounds wrong, basically. Yes.

B (49:31)

Yes, absolutely. It sounds like ending a chapter sounds a bit to me like doing what we call a button at the end of a scene or at the end of a musical number. You need that kind of finishing.

A (49:41)

Yeah, finishing moment. Yeah. Rather than with. On text, you can easily cut something and the reader's gonna turn the page. But if you're driving and you're listening to an audiobook, there's a few seconds of space and so you almost need it to end in a certain audio way to make a point. Like you say, buttons are really good. Word. I've never, never heard it in that context, yeah, absolutely.

B (50:07)

Yeah. You need to navigate because. To guide them through the text because they haven't got that kind of expanse of the. The blank bit of page at the end of the chapter or whatever.

A (50:19)

So then I guess the other thing about theatre is performance. And I feel like a lot of authors think they have no need to learn performance because they're just going to be in their rooms writing. But if you are successful or if you want to be successful, you are going to have to do stuff. You have to speak on a podcast, you have to speak at a festival, you have to do a reading, you have to talk to media. So what are doing you, Your tips on performance and I guess from seeing a lot of bad performances as well. What can we do? We want to be authentic. Like, we don't need to rah, rah. But how can we do it where we can deliver the best to the people who are listening?

B (51:01)

Yeah, such a good question. I think for me there's kind of two things. So I find, and this is probably my theater background, but I find it really helps to imagine a character who is a version of me and that's who I'm playing in public. And the character is essentially the same. They're me, just a bit more confident, you know, a slightly shinier version. So, like, I'm Laura, and then there's Laura Baguley, writer. And if you sort of, if you ask those two people, like, how is your new book going? Like me, Laura, sitting at my desk might say, oh, I'm really struggling. I'm trying to write in this new thrutopian genre and I've got ideas for two characters, but the world isn't clear at all. And I'm just not sure which plot strand to prioritize and so on. But if you ask Laura Baggarly, writer, she might say, oh, it's exciting. I'm experimenting with a new literary genre. I'm writing a Thrutopian novel for young adults and it's about two teenage girls. They're both outsiders in different ways. So, like, both of those statements are completely true. I'm not being inauthentic because it is exciting that I'm writing this, this book in this genre. But one of them, I hope you'll agree, one of them sounds better than the other. And it's. It's a bit like putting on a smart jacket for a book reading. It's just getting into. Into character. Does that make sense?

A (52:30)

Yeah, I totally agree and I. I think the smart jacket is a point as well, makeup for women, I mean, you don't have to. But I remember I did professional speaker training back in Australia like 20 years ago, and I remember seeing these women and they wore, they didn't have to be designer clothes, but they wore smart clothes on stage and they looked professional and their hair was done and their makeup was done. And I, I just learned a lot from that because. Because it gives a professional impression. And I feel that's the thing. If you want to be a successful author, then you are a professional, so whatever that means, however you want to dress. But I think again, it's whether it's a smart jacket or it's just different clothes, I feel as well can really help.

B (53:15)

That is so true. I mean, and a lot of actors talk about needing to find the right shoes for a character, you know, and they put on their costume and. And then that's part of the process of getting ready for performance. So I think that's absolutely right.

A (53:32)

This is terrible. I was just thinking then. So I've been to some of these pitch things, right, for film and TV and stuff. And the last one I went to, they sent an email out and the email basically said, please chew gum or use mints. Oh, no. I mean, not to me personally. But the email went out and it also said use deodorant. And I was like, if you are emailing at green of people and telling them to use mints and deodorant, then what the hell happened last year?

B (54:01)

That's horrendous. Oh my goodness.

A (54:05)

And I was just thinking about that. And I think again, as authors, we consider it's fine to sit here at your desk in your tracky bees and your whatever and messy. Like I basically don't do my hair most of the time. But if you're, if you're going to do a reading or you're going to a conference or you're doing, doing anything where you are. Joanna Penn WRITER OR LAURA Bagley WRITER when that, when it is that side of you, you have to make an effort, right? Even if it's hard. And it is hard, isn't it?

B (54:31)

Yes, it is hard. I think it does boost your confidence to be wearing the right stuff. And also, I mean, there are practical performance tips as well. I would say practice a lot out loud. I sometimes with my students, I'll see them rehearsing, sing a speech in their head and I'll say, come on. No, no, do it out loud because you need your mouth to practice saying the words. There's a muscle memory involved. So if you're doing a reading of your own book, you might know the book inside out, but your mouth might not know it. And if you read it out loud to the mirror to a friend multiple times, when you're feeling really nervous up on stage, your mouth will do some of the work because it will already knows what it has to do. It sounds really silly, but just practice, practice, practice. And remember to slow down because adrenaline makes us all speed up. And the other one that you know, because actors often say to me, like, oh, like students, what do I do about nerves? When they're just starting out, they might be doing their first ever acting performance, I say, well, it's part of performance. It's absolutely natural. It's completely normal, Normal response to the situation. And even though you can't just tell your brain to calm down, you can physically relax your body. So you can lift your shoulders right up to your ears and then drop them down and feel the difference. That is physical relaxation. So even if your brain and your stomach are churning, you can consciously, physically relax your body and do that Breath. Breathing. My, My favorite breathing is in for two, out for three. Just extend the out breath and. And doing that. It's so obvious, but it does help.

A (56:20)

Yeah. And on that breathing and that practicing things with your mouth. That's so good. Because the other thing, with our own writing, if you're not reading it aloud or you don't do anything with audio, you. Especially with literary writing, you can get some really long sentences. Yes.

B (56:38)

Where do you breathe? Decide where you're going to breathe. Yeah, absolutely.

A (56:43)

And in fact, audiobook narrators will. And I've done a lot of my own audiobooks, so you mark up your script where you're going to breathe. So as an audiobook narrator, you prepare a document with that kind of thing if it's a difficult bit. So if. If someone's got a reading coming up, I know you have got one coming up. We were talking about that beforehand. So I guess another question would be, what do you pick? Because some people say, oh, I just start at the beginning. But I. I've been to so many readings where I'm like, yeah, I don't think that's the best section to read. Like, what bits do you pick? And any tips for preparing a reading as opposed to, like an interview?

B (57:23)

I think I would, you know, pick an exciting bit.

A (57:26)

Yeah.

B (57:27)

Sort of obvious, but if the beginning of your book is really intriguing and get straight into the action, then go for it. But you want to excite people, don't you. You want to inspire them to want to read more. So you might even want to choose a bit that ends on a bit of a cliffhanger. Not right at the end, no spoilers. But choose an exciting bit and a bit that will be. Will be fun to read out loud and then practice and decide how you're going to. To read it. And really thinking about that performance element. How can you draw people in by varying the, the volume or the, the tempo of the reading? You know, you might want to just slow down a little bit on a suspenseful moment and are you going to do anything when you do dialogue? You know, I don't think anyone should do silly voices, by the way, unless you're an actor.

A (58:18)

Well, yes, you can. Yes.

B (58:21)

But you might want to. But you probably do want to speak slightly differently so that we know it's dialogue, for instance, you know.

A (58:29)

Yeah, yeah, I think. And also videoing yourself practicing can really help because I think you still have to. As if you were doing an interview. You're always looking out to the audience now and then. Or if you're doing a professional speaking engagement, you're meeting eyes of the audience. And I feel with a reading like the worst readings I've seen is the author literally has got their nose in the book and doesn't even look up once. They're just like, rushing through it. So you do have to look up, don't you, to bring people in?

B (58:58)

Couldn't agree more. It's so, so, so, so important. I mean, that kind of reading from a script while still connecting with the other character is a really basic part of actor training. Reading, reading and connecting with the audience is so important. And it comes from. It just comes from practice and knowing the text really, really well, not quite memorizing it, but having such a clear sense of, of the shape of it and what happens in the sentences that you can look away from, from the page a lot. Yeah.

A (59:27)

Because at the end of the day, it's. That is it Maya Angelou. People will forget what you said, but they won't forget how they feel.

B (59:35)

Yeah.

A (59:36)

So you want people to go away feeling like, wow, that that author was really great. I'm really interested in that book. They might not remember what the hell you read, but if you read it in an. In a way that connects with them and you. I think you just have to bring that energy, don't you? In some form, yes.

B (59:54)

And the other thing to remember is that people who come to book readings come because they enjoy it. They come because they want to have a good time. Time. So if you're scared to make eye contact with them, you're sort of, you're pushing them away a bit. But if you look around the room as people are arriving, if you look and you make eye contact, they'll probably smile at you because they're excited to hear from your book. They're probably excited to be there. At the very least, they want you to succeed. So don't be scared of your audience. Think of them as a group of people who just want to share in the pleasure of hearing your work.

A (60:32)

Yeah. And I think just to encourage people, obviously both of us, I have different experience to you, but I've been speaking for a long time and done a lot of events and it just gets easier with practice.

B (60:45)

It really, really, really does. I mean, I used to be terrified of directing, of teaching, of leading workshops, of all the things that I have spent most of my life doing. The first time I did it and, and not just the first time, for a while, it, it was nerve wracking. But it's a great feeling when you've done it and then when you meet someone or they send you a message saying, oh, that was great, you know, it's just wonderful.

A (61:13)

Well, you mentioned workshops there and I think this is another skill that's different to reading or speaking when you're doing a workshop or a retreat. A lot of writers teach at retreats and also attend retreats or doing classes. So what, what are your tips for the more participatory things where either the writer who's trying to run the workshop is an introvert or the people who attend are introverts? Like, have you come across any particular challenges there?

B (61:45)

Yeah, I think, I think for me, for like leading workshops, it's all about preparation and knowing what the purpose of the workshop is. So what do you want people to go away with? You know, what skill or experience are you trying to convey? And if you've done lots of prep and you've got discussion topics and activities fulfilling that objective, then that, that's a confidence booster. Just knowing that you've got of lots, lots of stuff to fill the time. And then if you're really struggling with nerves, make sure that you get the participants to do some of the work because you can set them a task, they're there to learn, to do. And people learn by doing, they learn by experience. So you can even have a task that they get stuck into straight away so that they're all busy writing while you're doing your careful, brief breathing. And getting command of yourself and then get, get them to, to discuss. So try and try and structure it in a way that's helpful to you.

A (62:50)

Yeah, I think preparation is a huge part of helping introverts in particular. I don't know, I think it is correlated with introversion, like needing preparation. I sent you questions for this interview and we probably could have winged it, but I hate winging it. I need to have questions and we might, you know, we might not stick with them, but at least we both know that we're prepared and that makes me feel better. Even if you don't even look at them, some people come on and say, oh, I didn't even look at your questions.

B (63:19)

Oh my goodness, no. I loved, I love getting questions. I love being prepared. I would never go into a workshop or a rehearsal without a really clear sense of what I'm gonna do because that actually that's how the participants are going to get the best experience, I think out of the workshop. And I think also just thinking about participants, if people who are introverted attend a workshop, they should think about how they can get their needs met because you don't want to go and be too shy to, and not get value from the workshop. So for instance, things like if you're, if you hate the thought of reading your work aloud for it to be critiqued, get in touch with the, the workshop leader or the tutor in advance or speak to them on the day or just slip them a note and just tell them that and they'll get someone else to read it out so that you, you can find ways to mitigate your anxiety and still get the most out of it.

A (64:15)

Yes. We're almost out of time, but I did also want to ask you. You collaborate with a group of authors on a substack magazine, I guess online magazine called Bending the Arc. And I always find collaborative author things a challenge, but you're in theatre so you're used to collaboration. But tell us, like, what is the intent in that and the benefits and challenges of collaborating on something like a, an email newsletter thing?

B (64:41)

Well, I, I sort of have to say where it comes from because Bending the Arc, it emerged out of my. Well, the exploration of climate fiction that I've been doing doing led me to Manda Scott's Thrutopia Masterclass, which was an online study course. So there were five of us teamed up in 2024 to, to study this masterclass for six months. And I don't know if people are familiar with the term Thrutopia. I think it's quite new. Okay, so it was a term that Rupert Reed came up with. He's an environmental academic and it's means telling stories that aren't dystopias. So not imagining how awful everything's going to be. But not utopias where you've got a kind of magically perfect future, but looking at through topias, how do we get through from here to a better place? So it fits in a lot with the. The green stories idea and the climate fiction. So for this masterclass, we met every week for six months. 1 watched a weekly video, did writing exercises and discussed it. And when we got to the end of it, we didn't want to stop. We didn't want to stop meeting. And we had generated some. Some work in this new genre and we wanted a place to showcase it. But also, probably as importantly, we wanted to invite other writers to experiment with this kind of work as well. So we thought a substack magazine would be a good. A good way of doing doing this.

A (66:09)

And has it performed a function, though? I feel like a lot of the experimental writing we do and group writing and everything is great for a certain amount of time, but then having obviously podcasted for years and done various things, things do not continue unless there is a benefit to the people involved at some point. So, for example, marketing your own books or something?

B (66:32)

Yes, yes. I mean, I think. I think there's sort of two. Two things. One is I've made lots of really interesting connections with people that I just wouldn't have met without this. There's five of us. So putting out a substack with five people's networks with very quickly reaching a lot more people than just I would reach on my own. And I have used it to promote my own work in that an extract from Dirt was in the first edition. But also I think what I get out of it is we're like a writer's support group. We critique each other's work, we champion each other. So it gives us a focus for our weekly meetings. And we're meeting lots of other writers through it when we open up submissions so that it's coming out in two editions at the moment. We're doing it twice a year, so we send out a flurry of posts. It's not like we put out a post every week. So it's a slightly different one way of using substack.

A (67:27)

And what other marketing are you finding you're doing for your book?

B (67:32)

Oh, I would say I'm following all the advice on all the webinars and Podcasts and Alliance of Independent Authors. I've got my author newsletter that I'm doing. Obviously, Dirt is for children and young adults. I'm going into schools, I'm doing talks in libraries, blog tour, all those kinds of. Kinds of things.

A (67:53)

Great. So where can people find you and your book online?

B (67:58)

So my website is laurabaggiley.co.uk and that's Baggerley B A double G A L E Y. I'm on Instagram. Laurabagley writer and the. Yeah, the Thrutopian magazine Bending the Arc is on substack. And if. If anyone is interested in the Thrutopian genre or Green Stories or. Or anything else we've talked about, you know, do drop me a line. I love talking about all this and as I said, I love connecting with other writers.

A (68:25)

Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Laura. That was great.

B (68:29)

It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

A (68:34)

So I hope you found the discussion with Laura interesting. I love the crossover between theatre and books, such different art forms, and yet we can learn a lot from performing, performance. And we need to, as live events are so important and perhaps increasingly so in this sort of era of AI and more digital, we need to be more physical. So let me know what you think of the interview or anything I covered in the introduction. Leave a comment on the podcast show notes@wcreative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. You can email me joannathecreativepenn.com Send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Next Monday, I'm talking to Becca Syme about why Loki is in charge, the God of mischief and chaos, and how authors can thrive in a time of transition. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show notes@thecreativepen.com podcast and you can get your free author blueprint@thecreativepen.com blueprint. If you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X hecreative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook fpenauthor. Happy writing and I'll see you next time.