Performance Tips For Authors, And Writing Climate Fiction With Laura Baggaley

Summary

Podcast Summary: Performance Tips For Authors, And Writing Climate Fiction With Laura Baggaley

Podcast: The Creative Penn Podcast for Writers
Host: Joanna Penn
Episode: 833
Guest: Laura Baggaley
Date: October 20, 2025
Main Theme: Exploring performance skills for authors, writing climate/eco-fiction, and resilient author careers in turbulent publishing times.

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Episode Overview

This episode features a rich conversation between Joanna Penn and author/theatre director Laura Baggaley, focusing on:

• Navigating the ups and downs of publishing, especially when publishers go under
• Writing climate fiction without being preachy
• Translating theatre experience into better dialogue, author events, and book readings
• Practical, actionable performance tips for writers
  The episode reflects on the current shifts and challenges in the publishing industry (for both indie authors and small presses) and how authors can maintain adaptability, creativity, and agency.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. State of the Publishing Industry and Author Mindset (00:00–30:24)

• Small Presses in Crisis:
  Joanna discusses a UK Bookseller letter where over 20 indie presses warn of an existential crisis—due to inflation, war impacts, tariffs, rising costs, retail shifts, and dwindling arts funding, leading to a lack of review coverage and unsustainable workloads.

  • "This accumulation of pressure has created unsustainable workloads and increasingly uncertain prospects, significantly impacting our well being..." [Joanna, 02:25]

• Advice for Authors with Small Publishers:

  • Always check contract clauses about rights reversal if a publisher closes.
  • "If I was publishing with any of the signees, I’d be getting on the phone with them or my agent or whatever and saying...if they say they’re going to struggle to survive...what will happen to my book?" [Joanna, 08:05]

• Author Sustainability & Multiple Streams:

  • Importance of defining personal success, adapting business models, and diversifying income—not solely focusing on what used to work.
  • Quotes Jamie Albright:
    "I've made a lot of money and I've not made a lot of money...I quit looking at [KDP dashboard] because that's depressing and it's got to be about more than money." [Joanna, 18:45]

• Creative Resilience:

  • Being an author is “hard for a reason”—because it’s rewarding as a calling.
  • "At heart, none of us start writing to make money. We write because we have to." [Joanna, 13:38]

2. Emerging Trends: AI, Shopping, and Content (22:00–28:00)

• Rise of Agentic Commerce:
  Joanna explores the partnership between Walmart and ChatGPT, marking a significant move toward AI-driven, personalized shopping experiences.

  • "There is a native AI experience coming that is multimedia, personalized, and contextual. We are running towards that more enjoyable and convenient future." [Joanna, 26:43 quoting Walmart CEO]

• Personalization in AI:
  Joanna shares how AI like ChatGPT is now delivering hyper-personalized daily “newsletters” and recommendations—including books—which she expects to disrupt retail (including bookselling).

• Long-tail Content Strategy:
  Joanna emphasizes how podcasts and transcripts are discoverable in the long-tail via AI, offering ongoing opportunities for discoverability.

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Main Interview: Laura Baggaley on Writing, Climate Fiction, and Performance (30:25–68:29)

Laura Baggaley’s Journey: Theatre to Author (30:25–32:21)

• Always wanted to write; theatre and directing “side-tracked” her for 15 years before returning to writing.
• Initial attempts at literary writing were “boring”—discovered her voice with a YA dystopian novel.
  • “First of all, I started working on a literary novel… when I read it, I realized it was incredibly boring because nothing happened… Fortunately, I had this idea about a 15-year-old kid in a dystopian future… that's where I really started to sort of find my voice.” [Laura, 31:15]

Navigating a Publisher Going Under (32:21–37:10)

• Laura secured a traditional deal, but after a merger, both publishers collapsed—her two books reverted to her.

• “Unbound folded and took Neem Tree Press down with them. The two books that I’d been so excited to get published… have not been published. However… the rights have reverted to me and now I can do what I want with them.” [Laura, 33:23]

• Laura felt “relief and empowerment”—already primed from indie author resources, she kept moving forward instead of waiting.

  • "I was like, well, thank goodness the books are mine again. Now I can get on with publishing them." [Laura, 36:00]

• New book, Dirt, came out with Habitat Press; next projects may be a mix of self and small press publishing.

Writing Eco/Climate Fiction Without Being Preachy (37:18–42:27)

• Eco/climate fiction (cli-fi) can span genres but must “normalize positive action” via world-building, not preaching.

  • "It’s about looking forward to joyful possibilities and normalizing positive action… not telling everybody to buy an electric car but embedding things like solar panels… as just normal parts of life." [Laura, 38:08]

• On Ministry for the Future as an example: Bleak, but full of embedded climate solutions and hope.

• “Smuggling the Messages In”:

  • “You want the book to be exciting… the eco stuff is incidental almost, but there’s just a little bit of a mind shift.” [Laura, 42:09]

Notable Moment:

Laura describes Green Stories Project’s collaboration with BAFTA comparing low- and high-carbon fictional characters (Jack Reacher vs. James Bond) to highlight how cultural narratives can “glamorize” sustainability [40:24].

Theatre Skills Applied to Writing and Readings

Writing Adaptable Stories & Vivid Imagery (44:49–46:39)

• Theatre and film are visual; authors should write with striking images in mind—good for both adaptation & marketing.
  • “Are there key moments that have really clear, vivid images attached?... My book Dirt started with an image for me—an expanse of desert, a single road, a girl wearing a sunhat as big as a bicycle wheel cycling alone…” [Laura, 45:28]

Crafting Natural Dialogue & Identifying "Bad" Dialogue (47:03–48:31)

• Bad dialogue = characters speaking unnaturally “just to further the plot”
  • “Oh, Uncle Bernard, how good to see you after you’ve spent ten years in Australia...” Bernard knows he’s been in Australia… there’s no reason for them to say that.” [Laura, 47:12]
• Dialogue should come from the character’s head, their motives and relationships.
• Tip: Always read dialogue aloud (or have others do so) to catch unnatural phrasing.

Audiobooks and "Button" Endings (48:31–50:07)

• Joanna describes revising dialogue after hearing her AI narration: endings of chapters sometimes changed for audio resonance—“button” moments in performance creating a sense of completion.

Performance Tips for Authors: Readings, Events, & Workshops (51:01–64:15)

Being Authentically "You" on Stage (51:01–53:32)

• Adopt a Persona: Imagine a “shiny,” more confident version of yourself for public appearances.

  • “I find it really helps to imagine a character who is a version of me… They’re me, just a bit more confident, you know, a slightly shinier version.” [Laura, 51:11]

• Dressing up, putting on a “smart jacket” or distinctive clothing, helps authors “step into” the professional role.

Practical Performance Techniques (54:01–56:43)

• Practice, practice, practice: Out loud, not just in your head. Build “muscle memory.”
• Slow Down: Adrenaline makes you rush; make a conscious effort to go slower.
• Physical Relaxation: Shoulders up–and–down, deep breathing (in for two, out for three) helps calm nerves.
  • “You can’t just tell your brain to calm down, but you can physically relax your body... Even if your brain and your stomach are churning, you can consciously, physically relax.” [Laura, 55:20]
• Manage Long Sentences: When prepping an excerpt, mark up scripts for breaths, especially for readings and audiobooks.

Selecting, Preparing, and Performing Readings (57:23–59:35)

• Pick “exciting” excerpts—could be a cliffhanger or a section that hooks listeners.
• Vary tempo and volume; clearly differentiate dialogue (even without “doing voices”).
• Connect with your audience: Don’t keep your nose in the book—look up, engage with eyes.
• “If you look and you make eye contact, they’ll probably smile at you… they want you to succeed.” [Laura, 59:06]

Workshops & Retreats: Engaging Introverts (61:13–64:15)

• Preparation is critical: Know your objectives, activities, and discussion topics.
• Let participants do the work (writing, sharing).
• If you’re shy about reading aloud, tell the instructor in advance so someone else can read your work.

Collaborative Author Projects & Marketing (64:15–67:53)

• Laura co-founds “Bending the Arc” Substack magazine from a mastermind group focused on “Thrutopia” (i.e., stories considering the ‘how’ of getting to a better future, rather than utopias/dystopias).
• Key benefits: Amplified reach via networks, peer critique, and ongoing support.
• For children’s/YA books, Laura teaches, visits schools & libraries, and participates in blog tours, author newsletters, and more.

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Memorable Quotes

• Joanna Penn on resilience:
  “At heart, none of us start writing to make money. We write because we have to.” [13:38]
• Laura Baggaley on regaining rights:
  “Thank goodness the books are mine again. Now I can get on with publishing them.” [36:00]
• On climate fiction:
  “It’s about looking forward to joyful possibilities… not writing a book to tell everybody to buy an electric car, but embedding [solutions] as just normal parts of life.” [Laura, 38:08]
• On performance:
  “The character is essentially the same. They’re me, just a bit more confident, you know, a slightly shinier version.” [Laura, 51:11]

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Important Timestamps

• Small press crisis & Joanna’s publishing advice: 01:30–10:00
• AI in commerce & long-tail book marketing: 22:00–28:00
• Guest intro & Laura’s publishing journey: 30:25–37:10
• Writing climate/eco-fiction & world-building tips: 37:18–42:27
• Translating theatre skills to writing & events: 44:49–50:07
• Author performance, readings, and practical techniques: 51:01–56:43
• Workshops and engaging introverts: 61:13–64:15
• Collaborative author marketing/substack: 64:15–67:53

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Resources & Where to Find More

• Laura Baggaley’s website: laurabaggiley.co.uk
• Instagram: laurabaggileywriter
• Bending the Arc Substack: Search “Bending the Arc”
• Habitat Press & Green Stories Project: Green Stories Project

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Episode Takeaways

• For authors feeling uncertain: Proactively plan for both success and issues like publishers closing; understand your rights and be ready to pivot.
• For writing climate/eco-fiction: Avoid didactic messaging—let world-building and character aspirations embody solutions and hope.
• For performance at readings/events: Preparation, physical and vocal techniques, and practicing “a confident character” help authors excel.
• For indie careers: Combine creative and business skills, welcome adaptation, and keep learning from cross-disciplinary insights.

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For more resources, including backlist episodes and Joanna’s author blueprint, visit thecreativepenn.com.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show hello creatives, I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 833 of the podcast and it's Friday the 17th of October 2025. As I record this in today's show, I'm talking to author and theatre director Laura Baggeley about writing climate change and other big topic books without being preachy her experience of a publisher that went under just before launch. And Laura also gives tips from her theatre experience on writing better dialogue as well as how to do book readings which are a kind of performance and author events. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing and Book Marketing. Well, we know things are tough in the market right now, but it's not just indie authors who are struggling. The bookseller here in the UK reports that indie presses are an existential crisis and call for trade support now. To be clear, the word indie here Indie presses are small independ traditional publishers, so the article Sundays. More than 20 independent publishing houses have written an open letter calling for the trade to work together to ensure the longevity of the UK's independent presses as they face an existential crisis. If we don't enact change now, there is a real possibility that many indie presses will be unable to continue operating in the next five years, indefinitely altering the breadth and diversity of the UK's literary landscape. The letter outlines the challenges faced by indie publishers, inflation war and to national arts funding. It cites production, paper supply and energy costs affected by the war in Ukraine, fulfilment issues in Europe and the US due to a combination of custom fees and most recently Trump's trade tariffs, a challenging retail landscape, lack of review coverage as media has changed and a reduction in the number of distributors available for small stock and low turnover and arts funding cuts. Amid other issues, this accumulation of pressure has created unsustainable workloads and increasingly uncertain prospects, significantly impacting our well being and capacity to manage these workloads, the letter reads. Independent publishers face limited cash flow and inconsistent labour, yet the industry holds us to the same standards as the Big five publishers, so this obviously brings up a whole load of things. Firstly, of course many indie authors face similar issues and it is interesting because the only nod to difficult book Marketing is, they say, the lack of review coverage, but obviously there are many other ways to market books. But I do think under sustainable workloads and a challenge around tariffs and paper and energy production and all of these different things will be the same regardless of whatever country you're in. So I think it's worth reflecting on the business of publishing for individual authors as well as small publishers. The other thing to say is readers don't even think about who publishes a book. So if they buy from an online store or even a physical bookstore, they're not thinking, oh, this is a small publisher. Most people don't even know. So. So maybe some people do, but not very many. And the same for us. We're held to the same standards as traditional publishing as well. The quality of our books need to be just as high. I've thought about this recently because I've had several books returned from my Kickstarter from the us, not from readers, but it didn't even make it to the readers, but from the carrier in the usa. And I'm not sure whether this is a tariff issue or addresses, but it's never happened before. I've done it also Kickstarters now and I've not had books returned in this way. And of course that means I have to resend more books, eating into the profits and I'm going to have to send with a different carrier in the hope that this will work. And this is not Book Vault, by the way. These are me sending them personally for other signed editions. So we all have to think about these things as an individual author as well as a small press. I would also say if you publish with a small press in the UK or anywhere, this kind of letter would freak me out. If I was publishing with any of the signees, I'd be getting on the phone with them or my agent or whatever and saying, I'm just checking. If they say they're going to struggle to survive for the next five years, what will happen to my book? You should already know this because it should be in your contract. But this is also timely given the discussion with Laura today because she talks about how the press she published with went under and she got the rights back and everything. But I've heard from lots of authors over the years where this happens and difficult times. So check your contract details. I'm not saying don't sign with a small press, I'm saying if you are with a small press or do sign, check your contract and make sure you plan for success, but also plan for failure. What happens if that press goes under? Do you get the rights back immediately? How does that transfer over to you? That kind of thing? So, yeah, I think this letter is really interesting and good in one way to talk about, but also I'm not sure if it makes the authors that publish with them feel particularly confident about getting paid. So more focused on indie authors on the Wish I'd Known Then podcast with Jamie Albright and Sarah Rosette. They talk this week to Russell Nolte and Lee Savino about what to do when things are hard. This is definitely a theme at the moment because being an author is hard. And of course you've got to choose the hard that you have in your life and in your job. And hard things are rewarding, so that's one of the reasons we do them. But running a business is harder, regardless of whether that's an author business. But there are a lot of easier ways to make money, and there's a lot of talk at the moment about how things that used to work aren't working so well, how we have to reassess our definition of success and revisit why we do this. Anyway, at heart, none of us start writing to make money. We write because we have to. We feel this urge. It is partly a calling. It's a creative default that many of us have. We're like, I I desperately want to write. That is why we do this. And I think that's what it's got to come back to in the end. We write because we can't not write. And it helps us figure out the world and it gets all these things out of our heads. And yes, of course thinking about the money side is important. I like to make a living too, and there are so many options now that can be difficulty to make choices. So in fact, quoting from Lee Savinoth from the podcast episode, there's so much opportunity here, there's so much noise, and the only way to get through it is to figure out what you want, figure out what you love, and you don't have to do the same thing as other people. As you know, I don't really do ku. I've never done rapid release. I don't write to market. I don't do TikTok, but I do things that other people don't do. For example, I have this podcast and my books and travel podcast. I have my Patreon. Thank you wonderful patrons. And I'm still selling books, of course, as part of my ecosystem, but I focus far more on kick, Kickstarter and shopify these days and I have my books on all the stores and libraries and all of that, but I focus very much on selling direct. But things like hand selling at live events, you know, I had Johnny truant on and people talking about that and I love the idea and I will probably do something again here in Bath at the library like I did last year this year. But for my introvert quiet self who's struggles with crowds and noise, I just. It's just not something that I will ever do regularly. But yes, back to the podcast. Wish I'd known then. There are lots of ideas. Russell Nolte is just an idea machine and he gives lots of ideas for selling different forms of bundles and they talk about special events as well as collaboration and co writing. The interview split into two. So actually by the time this goes out both episodes might be up. It is a really honest podcast and of course Jamie and Sarah are always open about things. Jamie actually says I've made a lot of money and I've not made a lot of money. If you saw my KDP dashboard you would be shocked. But. But I quit looking at it because that's depressing and it's got to be about more than money. And yes, of course the author career and all businesses, they're not just up and to the right. It doesn't happen like that ad infinitum. There are ups and downs depending on so many things. Which is why as know I preach multiple streams of income and maybe one of those is a day job. And in fact I was thinking about this with the Six Figure Author podcast which if you've been around a while you might remember and the backlist is still up. I think it's well worth listening to the Six Figure Author Podcast. Lots of tips. Still evergreen, but at one point Lindsay, Jo and Andrea were all Six figure authors. And then by the end Lindsay is still going and very successful. Jo and Andrea still write, but they both talked about their challenges towards the end of the Six Figure Author Podcast. So things change and I love that we have this community where we can be honest about the ups and downs. I mean in traditional publishing I think people are sort of there and they're on bestseller lists and then they just disappear. But I feel like as indie authors we probably talk about this a lot more. Anyway, go and listen to the two part interview with Russell and Lee at Wish I'd Known Then for Writers and there was a funny story in the Guardian this week about book marketing which I thought I would read a bit of. So it is in relation to Jennifer L. Armentrout's latest novel called the Primal of Blood and Bone. And there is a special edition of the Romantasy book released with garlic infused ink. Yes, garlic. Hellman's Mayonnaise has teamed up with Armentrout and her publishers to release a special edition printed with ink mixed with their garlic aioli as the book has vampires in the author of the article, David Barnett, whose folk horror books I very much like, as in he's an author I read, he says, and it's a sort of opinion article. So he says, I heave a world weary sigh and reveal myself to be yet another grumpy, middle aged, largely unknown author, waving his fist at the clouds in the style of Grandpa Simpson and raging against the dying of the light. Or at least against the shift away from the seemingly outmod loaded idea of publishers just trying to sell books because, you know, they're books and they're good. Do I sound bitter? Of course I'm bitter. I'm not bitter at Almond Trout. May her book fly. Garlic aioli infused edition or otherwise. I'm bitter. As a publishing industry model, that seems weirdly averse to selling the majority of books it puts out. Of course marketing budgets are limited at even the biggest publisher. There's only so much money sloshing around. But there seems to be an odd system at work where books that don't actually need much promotion get all the money thrown at them. And I think we all know who they are. And whichever country you're in, there's always someone who's famous in some way who gets even more marketing budget. And he ends with an idea related to the garlic. He says my next horror novel is set in the coal fields of Lancashire. Most printing inks are carbon based, aren't they? So my book could be said to be printed with real coal. Now this article made me laugh. Everyone struggles with book marketing, so if you are challenged, you are not alone. And I don't know personally with this garlic aioli, this is not a book I would want to have. I actually don't particularly like the smell of garlic. No, I'm not a vampire, but I thought this was really a good article. So that's in the Guardian. I'll link to that in the show notes. So on AI things in the last couple of episodes I've talked about the rise of agentic commerce and shopping through ChatGPT. Now they launched in the US with Etsy and Shopify is coming soon. And this week a much bigger deal in that a partnership with Walmart has been announced. Now, of course, this is a very big store in the USA and I would expect Amazon to take notice of this press release. So the Walmart press release says it will allow customers and members to complete purchases from Walmart directly within ChatGPT through AI First Shopping, the retail experience shifts from reactive to proactive as it learns, plans and predicts, helping customers anticipate their needs before they do. This partnership builds on the multiple ways Walmart and Sam's Club are already using AI like enhancing product catalogs, improving customer care, resolution times and promoting AI literacy amongst associates. Direct quote from the press release says for many years now, e commerce shopping experiences have consisted of a search bar and a long list of item responses. That is about to change. Take note of this because that is also what Amazon has been, right? A search bar and a long list of responses. And this is from the president and CEO of Walmart. What he says there is a native AI experience coming that is multimedia, personalized and contextual. We are running towards that more enjoyable and convenient future. So yeah, he says this is agentic commerce in action where AI shifts from reactive to proactive, from static to dynamic. It learns, plans and predicts, helping customers anticipate their needs before they do. The future of retail isn't about replacing human connection with machines. It's about using AI to remove friction and make everyday moments easier, smarter and more delightful. So, yes, I guess I think this is so important. You know, I do. I've been harping on about it for a while now, but we have been expecting a shift. I mean, we haven't had a big upheaval really since the TikTok shift a few years back and before that, of course, social media. But we're coming up on like 20 years of, of general social media like Facebook and stuff like that. Amazon, of course, 25 years. Jeff Bezos always said Amazon would be disrupted and they should be disrupting themselves realistically. And then of course, we've had mobile disruption, we had the Internet. I mean, you can keep going back. Retail shifts like everything else. And this is the next shift in retail. You need to pay attention. This is not the future anymore. This is right now. And I, I use this all the time. I don't directly check out in ChatGPT because you can't here in the UK at the moment. But I believe it is coming and there will be winners and there will be losers, just like there are with every shift now. Personally, I missed the TikTok shift because I Don't do short form video. It is not something that I wanted to get into but I have always been into content marketing and I live in the long tail. I mean every one of these podcast episodes now with how everything can listen and do all the transcripts and things, this all goes into the long tail, the sort of the long, long, long, long, long tail I guess we should say. But help people find things. Now just an example of this even today. So my mum has moved here to Bath. You've heard me talk about that before. She wants a personal trainer and I went to ChatGPT and I told it about her. Obviously not her exact address, but I gave it the area she lives in her and asked for recommendations and the very first person that it recommended was perfect. And this is what we have heard so far about AI assisted search is that the traffic might go down dramatically but the conversion goes up because once these systems know more and more and more it just becomes so much more personalized. So the top of the list now will be more what they actually want as opposed to something that perhaps they might want want. So yeah, I have also heard about and I sit on X every day looking at the discussions on all this AI stuff and AI commerce and there's a lot of discussion around a potential login with ChatGPT. So many of us currently, you know, you go onto a site and it will say do you want to log in with Facebook or do you want to log in with Google? And now ChatGPT has upgraded memory for certainly those of us who log in to use it it and that means the system can learn more and more about you and be specific about recommendations. And so one of the things that I really enjoy right now is I get the Daily Pulse. This is one of my favourite features. It is in the paid tier, but every day I get a personalized newsletter with sections based on what I'm interested in. This is now the first thing I read every day. It gives me AI news updates, it gives me authors and publishing things, women's health stuff, death related topics because I talk to it about my degree and it sends me news items and ideas. And also I get fiction things and book recommendations as well as local events and stuff I might want to attend. And then every day I can give it more feedback and say I'll give me this tomorrow or whatever. It is a personalized newsletter generated only for me Now I have absolutely bought books from this Daily Pulse and also from other chatgpt ways of searching and I fully expect to just click directly through in at some point in the future. So yes, interesting times indeed. And they are going to come faster than you think. This move by Walmart is really significant and I think it will mean that Amazon will definitely be paying attention to this. So in personal news, I had a professional photo shoot a few weeks back and now I have the photos and I put a few on Instagram and Facebook Fpenauthor if you want to have a look, look. And I am so pleased because the last batch I did last year or the year before might have been the year before. I hate it. And in fact, I think I've paid two professional photographers in the last five years and haven't really used any of the photos because I just didn't like them. But these ones I'm so happy with. And the photographer whose name is Betty Bandari here in Bath, absolutely brilliant. She made me feel at ease, took some great shots that I can use for both of my brands. So JF Pen shots and Joanna Pen shots. And if you have a look at them, you should be able to guess which is JF Pen and which is Joanna pen and put them on the back of future books. I sorely, sorely need a better author photo for the back of my books. So I've been using selfies for the last few books. So yes, I wanted to just mention this because if you have been an author for a while, when was the last time you had professional photos done? I think this is a bit like dating sites because people put out of date photos on dating sites and well, apparently I haven't been on a dating site for a long, long time. But you hear about these things where people put old photos and then you meet people in person and you're like, seriously, you're 20 years older than I expected. And in fact, I remember at Thriller Fest there's a lot of older authors who go to Thriller Fest who still use young photos on the back of their books and same thing. I just think we have to be honest about our age. So yes. Anyway, I wanted to ask you if it's been more than a decade since you had them, perhaps it's time for an update. I also wanted to give you a few tips and you could ask the photographer if you're going to hire someone. So Betty and I had a call before we met in person, which I think was really good. We discussed the vibe of the brands and what kind of photos I was looking for. So she actually showed me various things in her portfolio to say, is this the kind of thing you're looking for. Is this the kind of thing you're looking for? So that helps helped both of us on the day itself, take different tops and jackets, jewelry, and again, you'll see in the photos. So I had like a blue top underneath and a bright necklace and then a black top and then a leather jacket. And I took layers on and off depending on what kind of shots we were doing. We also moved around the city, which I really liked because some of them we found some really great backdrops that again gave different feelings to the photos. The other thing is to really communicate with the photographer and I think I'm much more used to this now. And Betty actually said, it's really good that you're talking to me about how you feel because. And presumably she said that because other people don't. At one point I just said, I am sorry, I am really tired and we need to cut this short. I said my energy is really flagging. And I think as introverts, I imagine a lot of you are introverts. And also we don't do a lot of this. Most people don't do a lot of this unless you do a lot of video, perhaps maybe you're used to it. But for most of us posing and smiling and doing different looks, it's very, very hard. So, yes, I was honest and we got some great photos. So I wanted to just remind everyone about that. I'm in the middle of updating all my websites and things just so people can see I'm a real person. And again, I. I know you can deep fake any sort of looking person now is actually me and if you meet me in person, it is what I look like. So I think this is a good thing. I also have this white kind of streak in the front of my hair now and I needed to update all my photos for that. I also found Betty through ChatGPT. I had a long chat with it about what I was looking for and the type of photographer I thought I needed and everything. And it recommended Betty, so that was great. She also does weddings, portraits. So if you are in the southwest of England, Betty Bandari spelled B H A N D. So in other personal things, it is spooky season. And coming up for Day of the Dead, on my books and travel podcast, Louisa Navarro talks about Mexican Day of the Dead. Louisa is Mexican American and we talk about it, why it's such a beautiful way to remember our loved ones who have died, the elements that go into the altar and how tourists can respectfully experience the tradition and it was great to talk to Louisa and her book on Day of the Dead is out now, filled with gorgeous photos. So that is Day of the Dead on my books and travel podcast. Also spooky books if you'd like them. Blood Vintage is out now almost everywhere in almost every format. This is my folk horror novel set on a biodynamic vineyard here in Somerset. You can check it out now on whatever store you enjoy, or my own store. Just go to jfpenn.com bloodvintage also this month I'm in a horror promotion. So if you love horror, dark fantasy or paranormal, check out the deliciously Twisted Halloween book sale running through october@ twistedtalesbooks.com Halloween and it features my story Catacomb, which is basically like the movie Taken meets the Legend of Beowulf set in the catacombs under Edinburgh. Go on over to twistedtalesbooks.com forward/halloween so thanks for your emails and comments and no photos this week. Please do send photos. I love to see where you're listening or your favorite cemetery or churchyard. As ever. But yes, skincare cookbook on YouTube said on Steve's branding interview, I loved this. It was so helpful. It made me feel like I'm heading in the right direction. I'm also working on a hybrid book workbook and can't wait to take a look at his. Absolutely. As I said, Steve's workbook, which is book workbook for sure, is very well designed. So yeah, interesting from both content and design aspects. And then Ernie left a comment very much disagreeing with Steve. It was a long comment so I will read just a little. He said the worst mistake a woman or man can make is to think of themselves as a brand. As a mainly self published author whose books have sold over a million copies, I never think of myself as a brand. He also quotes Seth Godin who says you are not a brand, you're a person. A living, breathing, autonomous individual who doesn't seek to maximize ROI or long term brand value. Yes, I love to get comments that don't agree as well. So that's completely. Thanks Ernie for your comment there. I personally I find it helpful. I think the whole branding exercise is about do you find this helpful or not? I personally, as I mentioned with the photos earlier, I very much like having two brands. It helps me creatively, it helps me with marketing. So you know, everyone can do what they choose to do and think what they choose to think. We are independent authors. Okay. Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes atthecreative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. You can email me, send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation so this episode is sponsored by prowritingaid because however you choose to publish, whether you go indie or you want a traditional deal, you need to make your book the best it can be. ProWritingAid is one of my absolute must use tools in my writing process for both fiction and non fiction as well as short stories. And I should actually mention I have just used it for my first academic short essay only for checking grammar and typos and all that kind of things. Very, very useful. Importantly in Academia, not using AI for anything else obviously, but ProWritingAid has various settings where you can say what type of book it is and it changes the recommendations depending on the type of writing you do. So I use ProWritingAid with Scrivener, but you can also use it with other software or just online in your browser. ProWritingAid knows all the rules of editing and helps you apply them. And of course you can choose not to make changes as you learn. Like it helps with making your writing more active. Finding repeated words, finding words and sentences you could improve, adding sensory detail, sentence structure, grammar and punctuation, as well as typos, spacing problems, and more. It does suggest improvements, but you don't need to accept all the changes. It also now has a manuscript analysis developmental editing tool and a beta reader report so you can get an editorial analysis of your whole manuscript. We all use tools to improve our process and we're also often blind to our writing issues. It helps to have another pair of eyes, even if the eyes are software. So won't an editor do all this? Well, yes they can, but I'd rather pay my editor to fix the things the software can't. I use ProWritingAid as my essential editing tool before working with my Human editor, Kristen. ProWritingAid are also running Novel November at the moment picking up the baton from NaNoWriMo to help you write 50,000 words in November. They have lots of talks and support and education. Just head over to their site and you'll find the info. Check out the free edition or get 15% off the premium edition using my link prowritingaid.com Joanna that's prowritingaid.com Joanna J-O-A N N A so this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] thecreative.creative Pen thanks to the eight new patrons who've joined this week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community, you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering writing, craft and author business, as well as AI tutorials. Last week I shared the results of my patron survey and also shared my ebook and audiobook on productivity for authors. And we have live office hours coming up this week, so it's a good time to join if you want to come and hang out with me. Me the Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com thecreativepen that's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com thecreativepen Right, let's get into the interview. Laura Baggeley is an award nominated children's and YA author, theatre director and also teaches acting, writing and literature at City Lit College in London. So welcome to the show, Laura.

[B]

Thank you, Jo. It's lovely to be here.

[A]

Yes, I'm excited to talk to you today. But first up, tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

[B]

Well, I was one of those kids, kids who always had their nose in a book, you know, loved reading. Whenever anyone said what are you going to be when you grow up? I would say a writer, like straight away, no question about it. So that was always the plan. But in my late teens I changed schools for sixth form. I went to this school that was really strong on performing arts and I started to get into drama and doing lots of acting in school plays and at university started dating directing plays, which was even more fun than acting. And I just found myself pursuing a different path and became a theatre director for about 15 years. And that was really creatively exciting. But after a while I started to feel something was, was missing, I guess. And of course the writing had been completely sidelined. But I, I came back to it and I started writing again. And first of all, I started working on a literary novel that I was trying to craft with extremely beautiful language and lovely sentences. And when I got to the end of the draft and I read it, I realized it was incredibly boring because nothing happened in the book. So I put that in a drawer and I started again and I started working on another one and I was crafting my sentences. And anyway, fortunately about halfway through that one one I had this idea, this story came to me about a 15 year old kid in a dystopian future and it had to be a young protagonist and it had to be a YA book and I just really wanted to tell this story. So I chucked the boring literary half written draft in, in that same drawer and, and started working on the YA book. And that's, that's where I really started to sort of find my voice, as it were.

[A]

And where did it go from there? When was that?

[B]

Oh gosh, before the pandemic. Which is kind of how we judge everything time wise these days, isn't it? I think it was 2019 that I was a finalist in the Mislexia Children's fiction competition with that manuscript. So I'd obviously written it before then and then through that competition got an agent and I'd written it, wrote another book. I got a publishing deal with a Smith Lindsay publisher called Neem Tree Press.

[A]

So yeah, and I wanted to talk to you about this. So you were a finalist and Mislexia, if people don't know a very prestigious magazine here in the uk, you got an agent, you got a deal. So what happened then? What happened with the publishing experience?

[B]

Well, I think the term is probably roller coaster. I was really excited to sign this contract and obviously to have this publishing contract, but what happened was publication obviously takes a long time, so it was going to be 18 months or so before the book came out. After about a year of this process, Neem Tree Press merged with a much bigger UK publisher called Unbound. And they were saying how great this was because obviously there are advantages of scale, like wider distribution to bookshops, that kind of thing. And I don't think that Neem Tree Press quite realized how much financial trouble Unbound was in when they merged and essentially Unbound folded and took Neem Tree pressed down with them. And so the two books that I've been so excited to get published with, Neem Tree have not been published. However, on the plus side, the wrong rights have reverted to me and now I can do what I want with them. So they will be coming out, just not with Neem Tree Press. And the good thing was is that in the meantime I'd got on with writing another YA book and that has been published by Habitat Press. So I carried on writing.

[A]

The thing is, we hear this over and over again like there's pros and cons with small press versus big house houses. And one of the benefits of A big house is. It's very unlikely to go under. But one of the benefits of small press is you get a lot more attention and you know the people and you feel it's a much more personal process and there's pros and cons every which way. But over the years, I've been in publishing almost 20 years now, so many small press companies either get bought or things happen. Things happen. Let's just say things happen. So this happens. Happened. How did you deal with this, like mentally and thinking about whether it was all going to happen? Because obviously writers look forward to their publication and you're going through this process. So how did you deal with all that time?

[B]

As I say, it was, it was really up and down. And there were some months early on where I was, I was really down about it because I just didn't hear anything. I think that was the most frustrating thing is I'd be sending emails saying, when are we going to start on the end edits? And just not hear anything. So it felt like I was sort of being ghosted, you know. But the, the positive thing I think was that because of listening to your podcast and doing lots of research into indie publishing, I'd already decided that even if I had a traditional publishing deal, I was going to pursue my author business in an entrepreneurial way. So I'd already decided, you know, why can't a traditionally published author have a reading reader magnet, for example? So I got on with doing things in the meantime. I wasn't just waiting. And I think if I just waited, it would have been really crushing. But as it was when I finally had the sort of confirmation that Neem Tree Press had closed and there was no chance of the books being published, what I felt was, was relief and a sense of almost kind of empowerment. I was like, well, thank goodness the books are mine again. Now I can get on with publishing, publishing them.

[A]

That's really interesting. I think that empowerment, it's such a good energy and being long time indie. I think that empowerment and that sort of, I can do this. And like you said, I got on with doing things. Yeah. If you're a doer and you like doing things, then being an indie author is a good, is a good thing because you can move at your pace. And let's face it, even if you do get a deal with whoever, the person who cares the most about your book is you.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. And, and I think just that feeling of, I'm not going to wait for permission anymore. Had enough of that. But Habitat Press, who Brought out Dirt, my new book. They've been a joy to work with because they're much more flexible and collaborative and so I, I don't feel like I've given up all my power working with them. So that's really nice.

[A]

But you're going to self publish those other two tbc.

[B]

I'm hoping that one of them might come out with Habitat Press and one of them will be self published. Publish. That's the current plan. But I'm waiting for Habitat Press to read the, the Greener one.

[A]

Because the Captain Press is. Yeah.

[B]

Environmental kind of publisher.

[A]

Yeah. Well, let's talk about that. Because your novel Dirt is eco fiction or climate fiction and this is turning into a bit of a niche. So tell us, what are the hallmarks of that genre and how can authors write in important areas but not bash people over the head with a message?

[B]

That is so important, isn't it?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So climate fiction, I mean, I'd say it's any story with a focus on environmental or climate issues. So it could be a thriller, it could be a romance, it could be crime fiction. It's a really kind of broad, broad genre. But from my perspective, when I think about it, the key thing is climate solutions. It's about looking forward to joyful possibilities and about kind of normalizing positive action. So not writing a book to tell everybody to buy an electric car or something, but just kind of in the world building, embedding things like solar panels or heat pumps or whatever as just normal parts of life. And course in my books, because I tend to write near future dystopias, it's really easy to imagine a future where say, everyone gets all their energy from renewable energy. So the eco element, it's in the background and just taken for granted rather than trying to, trying to preach, if that makes sense.

[A]

That's interesting because I know Habitat Press wants a positive spin on it. But I was thinking one of the books I've read, I guess a few years ago now, the Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson, that is, I don't think, a positive book.

[B]

I know, I know that book. I love that book. Yeah, I know what you mean. I mean, it has one of the bleakest beginnings.

[A]

Yeah. Pretty bleak.

[B]

Yeah, I think. Yeah. But it stayed with me. I have never forgotten that book. But what I would say about that book is it is absolutely packed with ideas for ways of moving towards a better future. He's got all kinds of economic innovations and ideas about blockchain and how world banks could work together. So I would say, although it's in the action and the plot, there are bleak elements. I mean, overall, I would call it really, quite, really quite hopeful. And I mean, I sort of got into all this through the Green Stories Project Project. And they run free writing competitions encouraging writers to explore embedding climate solutions into their work. And of course Habitat Press kind of emerged out of the, the Green Stories Project. I think you interviewed Denise from Habitat Press some years ago. So I mean, one of the things that. Another thing that they did, which I really thought was really fun was the Green Store Story's collaboration with BAFTA on climate characters.

[A]

I don't know about that. Tell us about that.

[B]

They were comparing fictional characters with high and low carbon lifestyles. So they took like James Bond versus Jack Reacher.

[A]

Jack Reacher, yeah. He just has a toothbrush.

[B]

Exactly. And he spends his money on like coffee and public transport and. Whereas James Bond is all like jet skis and smart suits and expensive cars and so. And I mean, I love both those characters. Characters, of course, but if you're looking at what you glamorize in your fiction, it's a choice that, that you can make. So in, in one of my books, I, I have all the rich kids at school wearing Carpos trainers. And Carpos in my sort of future world is short for carbon positivity. And so they're carbon positive trainers that have absorbed more carbon in the, the manufacture than they've emitted. And that's this massive status symbol. So the cool kids all have carpods. And then of course my protagonist, who's not a rich kid, his trainers are just newt, which means like carbon neutral. And I like that's not what the plot is about. But I like the idea that in a world where legislation has said that all manufacturing processes have to be carbon neutral, it becomes a state of symbol to be sustainable. Like who can be the most eco.

[A]

Yeah, I, I absolutely agree. So I think that's a good sort of pointer is put it in the world building. Don't lecture. You don't have to have characters lecturing other characters about their behavior. Which I feel like is one of the bad things with any movement is bashing people over the head with stuff as opposed to trying to put things into stories that it's almost invisible but yet still impactful, I suppose.

[B]

Yeah. I think Denise at Habitat Press talks about smuggling the messages in. You know, that you want the book to be exciting because it's got great characters and a great story and that the, the eco stuff is incidental almost. But there's Just a little bit of a mind shift going on in the way that you construct the world of the book.

[A]

So I wanted to come onto your theories. Background. Well, first of all, I should ask, so did you write any plays or were you more in the directing thing?

[B]

Mainly, mainly directing. But I did do some devised productions when I was directing and so I did write some scripts for those. I wrote several scripts for actually for children's plays which were kind of adaptations. And then in it was in 2019, I devised and wrote a play for a London new writing festival called this Play Will Solve Climate Change.

[A]

Yeah, that's a bit more on the nose as a title.

[B]

It was, yeah, it was a full on activist kind of physical theater, experimental production. It was really fun and it was perhaps a kind of a step back towards writing for me.

[A]

Yeah, well, because this is interesting, right? So I write a novel, you write a novel and we can upload it to Amazon, let's say the very basic thing you can do is upload it to Amazon, people can buy it and you get some money with a play. It just isn't like that, is it? I mean, is there anything like a sort of self publishing scene in the theatre world?

[B]

I have to say, not that I know of with scripts at all. In fact, with the, with the climate change play that I wrote, I actually set up a little theatre company around that time and we called ourselves Reusable Theatre and the idea was that our scripts could be reused by anyone, anywhere because we wanted to generate more of this kind of work. But I mean there are theatre makers all over the place generating their own productions and putting, putting on work independently. So. So yes, but I don't think anyone's making any money out of it. Is the difference.

[A]

No, exactly, because. Because people don't really. I mean there are obviously people buy scripts and put schools and stuff. Usually you have to buy the certain text or whatever, but people don't really shop for plays, I guess.

[B]

So I don't think so.

[A]

Yeah, so yeah, it's different, it is difficult. So I'm glad you've discovered the business of books. But in terms of if people are interested in adaptation, like you said there, you did some adaptations. What are some tips for writing stories that could be more easily adapted into theatre or, or even just brought alive in with marketing, with images and that kind of thing?

[B]

That's a really interesting question because I think in, in some ways theatre is a really expansive, inventive storytelling mode. So. So you can almost put anything on stage. But what I would Say is I think it's primarily about. About theatre and film being really being visual mediums. And this is often the case in marketing as well, isn't it? So it's about finding those really striking images and just thinking about your plot. Are there key moments that have really clear, vivid images attached to them? I think I'm often really inspired by images. So there was a play I directed once simply because I love, loved the opening image on stage. And it was 18th century garden in Lambeth with an apple tree. And there were two figures, a man and a woman, sitting in the tree with their backs to the audience, both completely naked. And I just thought this was such a kind of striking image. And of course, we didn't have a tree on stage. We. We had apples suspended from invisible threads. So the actors were sitting on a step ladger and a swing sort of in this kind of cloud of apples. And it was really beautiful. And I guess that that's the kind of thing you're thinking about with, with dirt. That whole book really started with an image for me. There's an expanse of desert, a single road running through it. A girl wearing a sun hat as big as a bicycle wheel cycling alone along that road towards us. And that was like the first idea for the story in my head. It was kind of like a western, you know, a stranger rides into town. So that's, that's where my inspiration, I think, often comes from. And I think that does translate well into, into marketing, for instance.

[A]

Yeah. And I guess another thing is dialogue, because if you're on the stage, then you're gonna have to have some people speak speaking. So you've probably read a heck of a lot of very bad dialogue or heard dialogue that might look okay on, on the text. Then an actor tries to perform it and it sounds terrible. So how can we identify bad dialogue? And any tips for writing it better?

[B]

Yes, I've certainly encountered some terrible dialogue. I think. I think for me, the clunkiest is when characters say things without motivation just to further the plot. So. And I get, I get students doing this in my acting classes. Sometimes they'll be improvising and they'll say something like, oh, Uncle Bernard, how good to see you after you've spent 10 years in Australia. I'll be like, bernard knows he's been in Australia and he knows it's been a long time. So the character, like, there's just no reason for them to say that. And it always tells me that the actor is being super conscious of the audience trying to Convey information rather than getting into the character skin. And I think with dialogue, it's about really immersing yourself, getting in there in the character's head. What is the character's attitude to this situation? What's their relationship to the other people? How are they feeling? And then you get that kind of, what would I say if I was this person in this situation? And that's where the dialogue should be coming from. And I think you really hit on it, Jo, when you said it's reading it aloud. You know, it can read well on the page, but to test it, read it aloud and better get other people to read it aloud for you. I mean, in. In theatre, it's standard practice. You've got a new script, you workshop it. Get a load of actors. Playwright sits with a red pen and their script and listens and scribbles all over the script while the actors read it out.

[A]

Yeah, it's funny. I've actually just yesterday finished the audiobook of Blood Vintage, which is my folk horror novel, and I've done it with 11 labs using my voice clone, which is very, very good. So it's very strange because I'm listening to myself and then I'm. I direct myself the AI, and I've actually rewritten bits and bobs of dialogue because even my own voice clone can't do it properly. Wow.

[B]

Wow, that's brilliant. It is.

[A]

It's really funny. And the other thing. Thing that I found, and again, like, I've literally just sort of discovered this is at the end of chapters. Sometimes I've rewritten things in order that they sound. That they end on us with a certain sound, as opposed to how they can be. They can end in the text. And you would have come across this too. Is that written there can be sounds that written down. Don't look like they match, but when you speak them, the sounds resonate with each other and they're. It just sounds wrong, basically. Yes.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. It sounds like ending a chapter sounds a bit to me like doing what we call a button at the end of a scene or at the end of a musical number. You need that kind of finishing.

[A]

Yeah, finishing moment. Yeah. Rather than with. On text, you can easily cut something and the reader's gonna turn the page. But if you're driving and you're listening to an audiobook, there's a few seconds of space and so you almost need it to end in a certain audio way to make a point. Like you say, buttons are really good. Word. I've never, never heard it in that context, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. You need to navigate because. To guide them through the text because they haven't got that kind of expanse of the. The blank bit of page at the end of the chapter or whatever.

[A]

So then I guess the other thing about theatre is performance. And I feel like a lot of authors think they have no need to learn performance because they're just going to be in their rooms writing. But if you are successful or if you want to be successful, you are going to have to do stuff. You have to speak on a podcast, you have to speak at a festival, you have to do a reading, you have to talk to media. So what are doing you, Your tips on performance and I guess from seeing a lot of bad performances as well. What can we do? We want to be authentic. Like, we don't need to rah, rah. But how can we do it where we can deliver the best to the people who are listening?

[B]

Yeah, such a good question. I think for me there's kind of two things. So I find, and this is probably my theater background, but I find it really helps to imagine a character who is a version of me and that's who I'm playing in public. And the character is essentially the same. They're me, just a bit more confident, you know, a slightly shinier version. So, like, I'm Laura, and then there's Laura Baguley, writer. And if you sort of, if you ask those two people, like, how is your new book going? Like me, Laura, sitting at my desk might say, oh, I'm really struggling. I'm trying to write in this new thrutopian genre and I've got ideas for two characters, but the world isn't clear at all. And I'm just not sure which plot strand to prioritize and so on. But if you ask Laura Baggarly, writer, she might say, oh, it's exciting. I'm experimenting with a new literary genre. I'm writing a Thrutopian novel for young adults and it's about two teenage girls. They're both outsiders in different ways. So, like, both of those statements are completely true. I'm not being inauthentic because it is exciting that I'm writing this, this book in this genre. But one of them, I hope you'll agree, one of them sounds better than the other. And it's. It's a bit like putting on a smart jacket for a book reading. It's just getting into. Into character. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, I totally agree and I. I think the smart jacket is a point as well, makeup for women, I mean, you don't have to. But I remember I did professional speaker training back in Australia like 20 years ago, and I remember seeing these women and they wore, they didn't have to be designer clothes, but they wore smart clothes on stage and they looked professional and their hair was done and their makeup was done. And I, I just learned a lot from that because. Because it gives a professional impression. And I feel that's the thing. If you want to be a successful author, then you are a professional, so whatever that means, however you want to dress. But I think again, it's whether it's a smart jacket or it's just different clothes, I feel as well can really help.

[B]

That is so true. I mean, and a lot of actors talk about needing to find the right shoes for a character, you know, and they put on their costume and. And then that's part of the process of getting ready for performance. So I think that's absolutely right.

[A]

This is terrible. I was just thinking then. So I've been to some of these pitch things, right, for film and TV and stuff. And the last one I went to, they sent an email out and the email basically said, please chew gum or use mints. Oh, no. I mean, not to me personally. But the email went out and it also said use deodorant. And I was like, if you are emailing at green of people and telling them to use mints and deodorant, then what the hell happened last year?

[B]

That's horrendous. Oh my goodness.

[A]

And I was just thinking about that. And I think again, as authors, we consider it's fine to sit here at your desk in your tracky bees and your whatever and messy. Like I basically don't do my hair most of the time. But if you're, if you're going to do a reading or you're going to a conference or you're doing, doing anything where you are. Joanna Penn WRITER OR LAURA Bagley WRITER when that, when it is that side of you, you have to make an effort, right? Even if it's hard. And it is hard, isn't it?

[B]

Yes, it is hard. I think it does boost your confidence to be wearing the right stuff. And also, I mean, there are practical performance tips as well. I would say practice a lot out loud. I sometimes with my students, I'll see them rehearsing, sing a speech in their head and I'll say, come on. No, no, do it out loud because you need your mouth to practice saying the words. There's a muscle memory involved. So if you're doing a reading of your own book, you might know the book inside out, but your mouth might not know it. And if you read it out loud to the mirror to a friend multiple times, when you're feeling really nervous up on stage, your mouth will do some of the work because it will already knows what it has to do. It sounds really silly, but just practice, practice, practice. And remember to slow down because adrenaline makes us all speed up. And the other one that you know, because actors often say to me, like, oh, like students, what do I do about nerves? When they're just starting out, they might be doing their first ever acting performance, I say, well, it's part of performance. It's absolutely natural. It's completely normal, Normal response to the situation. And even though you can't just tell your brain to calm down, you can physically relax your body. So you can lift your shoulders right up to your ears and then drop them down and feel the difference. That is physical relaxation. So even if your brain and your stomach are churning, you can consciously, physically relax your body and do that Breath. Breathing. My, My favorite breathing is in for two, out for three. Just extend the out breath and. And doing that. It's so obvious, but it does help.

[A]

Yeah. And on that breathing and that practicing things with your mouth. That's so good. Because the other thing, with our own writing, if you're not reading it aloud or you don't do anything with audio, you. Especially with literary writing, you can get some really long sentences. Yes.

[B]

Where do you breathe? Decide where you're going to breathe. Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

And in fact, audiobook narrators will. And I've done a lot of my own audiobooks, so you mark up your script where you're going to breathe. So as an audiobook narrator, you prepare a document with that kind of thing if it's a difficult bit. So if. If someone's got a reading coming up, I know you have got one coming up. We were talking about that beforehand. So I guess another question would be, what do you pick? Because some people say, oh, I just start at the beginning. But I. I've been to so many readings where I'm like, yeah, I don't think that's the best section to read. Like, what bits do you pick? And any tips for preparing a reading as opposed to, like an interview?

[B]

I think I would, you know, pick an exciting bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sort of obvious, but if the beginning of your book is really intriguing and get straight into the action, then go for it. But you want to excite people, don't you. You want to inspire them to want to read more. So you might even want to choose a bit that ends on a bit of a cliffhanger. Not right at the end, no spoilers. But choose an exciting bit and a bit that will be. Will be fun to read out loud and then practice and decide how you're going to. To read it. And really thinking about that performance element. How can you draw people in by varying the, the volume or the, the tempo of the reading? You know, you might want to just slow down a little bit on a suspenseful moment and are you going to do anything when you do dialogue? You know, I don't think anyone should do silly voices, by the way, unless you're an actor.

[A]

Well, yes, you can. Yes.

[B]

But you might want to. But you probably do want to speak slightly differently so that we know it's dialogue, for instance, you know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I think. And also videoing yourself practicing can really help because I think you still have to. As if you were doing an interview. You're always looking out to the audience now and then. Or if you're doing a professional speaking engagement, you're meeting eyes of the audience. And I feel with a reading like the worst readings I've seen is the author literally has got their nose in the book and doesn't even look up once. They're just like, rushing through it. So you do have to look up, don't you, to bring people in?

[B]

Couldn't agree more. It's so, so, so, so important. I mean, that kind of reading from a script while still connecting with the other character is a really basic part of actor training. Reading, reading and connecting with the audience is so important. And it comes from. It just comes from practice and knowing the text really, really well, not quite memorizing it, but having such a clear sense of, of the shape of it and what happens in the sentences that you can look away from, from the page a lot. Yeah.

[A]

Because at the end of the day, it's. That is it Maya Angelou. People will forget what you said, but they won't forget how they feel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you want people to go away feeling like, wow, that that author was really great. I'm really interested in that book. They might not remember what the hell you read, but if you read it in an. In a way that connects with them and you. I think you just have to bring that energy, don't you? In some form, yes.

[B]

And the other thing to remember is that people who come to book readings come because they enjoy it. They come because they want to have a good time. Time. So if you're scared to make eye contact with them, you're sort of, you're pushing them away a bit. But if you look around the room as people are arriving, if you look and you make eye contact, they'll probably smile at you because they're excited to hear from your book. They're probably excited to be there. At the very least, they want you to succeed. So don't be scared of your audience. Think of them as a group of people who just want to share in the pleasure of hearing your work.

[A]

Yeah. And I think just to encourage people, obviously both of us, I have different experience to you, but I've been speaking for a long time and done a lot of events and it just gets easier with practice.

[B]

It really, really, really does. I mean, I used to be terrified of directing, of teaching, of leading workshops, of all the things that I have spent most of my life doing. The first time I did it and, and not just the first time, for a while, it, it was nerve wracking. But it's a great feeling when you've done it and then when you meet someone or they send you a message saying, oh, that was great, you know, it's just wonderful.

[A]

Well, you mentioned workshops there and I think this is another skill that's different to reading or speaking when you're doing a workshop or a retreat. A lot of writers teach at retreats and also attend retreats or doing classes. So what, what are your tips for the more participatory things where either the writer who's trying to run the workshop is an introvert or the people who attend are introverts? Like, have you come across any particular challenges there?

[B]

Yeah, I think, I think for me, for like leading workshops, it's all about preparation and knowing what the purpose of the workshop is. So what do you want people to go away with? You know, what skill or experience are you trying to convey? And if you've done lots of prep and you've got discussion topics and activities fulfilling that objective, then that, that's a confidence booster. Just knowing that you've got of lots, lots of stuff to fill the time. And then if you're really struggling with nerves, make sure that you get the participants to do some of the work because you can set them a task, they're there to learn, to do. And people learn by doing, they learn by experience. So you can even have a task that they get stuck into straight away so that they're all busy writing while you're doing your careful, brief breathing. And getting command of yourself and then get, get them to, to discuss. So try and try and structure it in a way that's helpful to you.

[A]

Yeah, I think preparation is a huge part of helping introverts in particular. I don't know, I think it is correlated with introversion, like needing preparation. I sent you questions for this interview and we probably could have winged it, but I hate winging it. I need to have questions and we might, you know, we might not stick with them, but at least we both know that we're prepared and that makes me feel better. Even if you don't even look at them, some people come on and say, oh, I didn't even look at your questions.

[B]

Oh my goodness, no. I loved, I love getting questions. I love being prepared. I would never go into a workshop or a rehearsal without a really clear sense of what I'm gonna do because that actually that's how the participants are going to get the best experience, I think out of the workshop. And I think also just thinking about participants, if people who are introverted attend a workshop, they should think about how they can get their needs met because you don't want to go and be too shy to, and not get value from the workshop. So for instance, things like if you're, if you hate the thought of reading your work aloud for it to be critiqued, get in touch with the, the workshop leader or the tutor in advance or speak to them on the day or just slip them a note and just tell them that and they'll get someone else to read it out so that you, you can find ways to mitigate your anxiety and still get the most out of it.

[A]

Yes. We're almost out of time, but I did also want to ask you. You collaborate with a group of authors on a substack magazine, I guess online magazine called Bending the Arc. And I always find collaborative author things a challenge, but you're in theatre so you're used to collaboration. But tell us, like, what is the intent in that and the benefits and challenges of collaborating on something like a, an email newsletter thing?

[B]

Well, I, I sort of have to say where it comes from because Bending the Arc, it emerged out of my. Well, the exploration of climate fiction that I've been doing doing led me to Manda Scott's Thrutopia Masterclass, which was an online study course. So there were five of us teamed up in 2024 to, to study this masterclass for six months. And I don't know if people are familiar with the term Thrutopia. I think it's quite new. Okay, so it was a term that Rupert Reed came up with. He's an environmental academic and it's means telling stories that aren't dystopias. So not imagining how awful everything's going to be. But not utopias where you've got a kind of magically perfect future, but looking at through topias, how do we get through from here to a better place? So it fits in a lot with the. The green stories idea and the climate fiction. So for this masterclass, we met every week for six months. 1 watched a weekly video, did writing exercises and discussed it. And when we got to the end of it, we didn't want to stop. We didn't want to stop meeting. And we had generated some. Some work in this new genre and we wanted a place to showcase it. But also, probably as importantly, we wanted to invite other writers to experiment with this kind of work as well. So we thought a substack magazine would be a good. A good way of doing doing this.

[A]

And has it performed a function, though? I feel like a lot of the experimental writing we do and group writing and everything is great for a certain amount of time, but then having obviously podcasted for years and done various things, things do not continue unless there is a benefit to the people involved at some point. So, for example, marketing your own books or something?

[B]

Yes, yes. I mean, I think. I think there's sort of two. Two things. One is I've made lots of really interesting connections with people that I just wouldn't have met without this. There's five of us. So putting out a substack with five people's networks with very quickly reaching a lot more people than just I would reach on my own. And I have used it to promote my own work in that an extract from Dirt was in the first edition. But also I think what I get out of it is we're like a writer's support group. We critique each other's work, we champion each other. So it gives us a focus for our weekly meetings. And we're meeting lots of other writers through it when we open up submissions so that it's coming out in two editions at the moment. We're doing it twice a year, so we send out a flurry of posts. It's not like we put out a post every week. So it's a slightly different one way of using substack.

[A]

And what other marketing are you finding you're doing for your book?

[B]

Oh, I would say I'm following all the advice on all the webinars and Podcasts and Alliance of Independent Authors. I've got my author newsletter that I'm doing. Obviously, Dirt is for children and young adults. I'm going into schools, I'm doing talks in libraries, blog tour, all those kinds of. Kinds of things.

[A]

Great. So where can people find you and your book online?

[B]

So my website is laurabaggiley.co.uk and that's Baggerley B A double G A L E Y. I'm on Instagram. Laurabagley writer and the. Yeah, the Thrutopian magazine Bending the Arc is on substack. And if. If anyone is interested in the Thrutopian genre or Green Stories or. Or anything else we've talked about, you know, do drop me a line. I love talking about all this and as I said, I love connecting with other writers.

[A]

Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Laura. That was great.

[B]

It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[A]

So I hope you found the discussion with Laura interesting. I love the crossover between theatre and books, such different art forms, and yet we can learn a lot from performing, performance. And we need to, as live events are so important and perhaps increasingly so in this sort of era of AI and more digital, we need to be more physical. So let me know what you think of the interview or anything I covered in the introduction. Leave a comment on the podcast show notes@wcreative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. You can email me joannathecreativepenn.com Send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Next Monday, I'm talking to Becca Syme about why Loki is in charge, the God of mischief and chaos, and how authors can thrive in a time of transition. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] blueprint. If you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X hecreative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook fpenauthor. Happy writing and I'll see you next time.