Self-Publishing A Second Edition Of A Non-Fiction Book With Gin Stephens

Summary

The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers

Episode: Self-Publishing A Second Edition Of A Non-Fiction Book With Jin Stephens
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Jin Stephens
Release Date: November 4, 2024
Duration: Approximately 1 hour 5 minutes

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1. Introduction to the Episode

Joanna Penn welcomes listeners to episode #779 of The Creative Penn Podcast, introducing the topic of self-publishing a second edition of a non-fiction book. She outlines the primary focus: Jin Stephens' experience transitioning from traditional publishing to self-publishing her second edition of Delay Don't Deny. The episode delves into when to consider a new edition, the benefits of self-publishing, and the impact of moving away from platforms like Facebook to build a private community.

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2. Deciding to Publish a Second Edition [18:06]

Joanna opens the conversation by asking Jin why she chose to publish a second edition of Delay Don't Deny instead of writing a new book.

Jin Stephens:
"The original book from 2016 needed a refresh. I had learned so much more about the topic, and some advice was outdated. Plus, it continued to sell well, especially Delay Don't Deny, which some readers preferred over my other works." ([18:32])

Key Points:

• Evolution of Content: Advances in her understanding and new research necessitated updates.
• Reader Feedback: Continued popularity and reader preference for the original book influenced the decision.
• Self-Publishing Motivation: After a traditional publisher offered a minimal advance, Jin opted to self-publish to maintain control and quality.

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3. Balancing Comprehensive Content vs. Storytelling [20:40]

Joanna inquires whether readers prefer the more comprehensive, research-heavy Fast Feast Repeat over the story-based Delay Don't Deny.

Jin Stephens:
"It depends on the person. Some readers resonate with detailed references and scientific explanations, while others prefer straightforward, relatable stories." ([20:54])

Key Points:

• Target Audience Diversity: Catering to both those seeking in-depth knowledge and those wanting personal stories.
• Empowerment Through Choice: Encouraging readers to choose the book that best fits their needs, whether it’s starting with a simpler guide or delving into comprehensive research.

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4. Enhancing the Second Edition [23:31]

Joanna and Jin discuss the process of updating the second edition, focusing on what to retain and what to revise.

Jin Stephens:
"I focused on areas where readers had questions and confusions. For instance, I solidified the concept of the 'clean fast' based on community feedback and personal validation." ([23:31])

Key Points:

• Community Insights: Leveraging feedback from a large community to identify and address common questions.
• Terminology Updates: Incorporating new terms and refining existing concepts for clarity and effectiveness.
• Success Stories: Including recent and aligned success stories to reinforce the book’s guidance.

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5. Challenges and Rewards of Self-Publishing Second Editions [37:32]

Joanna highlights the difficulties Jin faced in launching a second edition, such as losing existing reviews and starting anew on platforms like Amazon.

Jin Stephens:
"Launching the second edition meant starting from scratch with reviews, but my community stepped up to support and provide the necessary initial reviews to build credibility." ([37:07])

Key Points:

• Starting Fresh: Navigating the loss of accumulated reviews and search rankings.
• Community Support: Leveraging a dedicated community to generate initial reviews and boost visibility.
• Long-Term Benefits: Despite initial setbacks, the second edition gains traction through consistent community endorsement.

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6. Audiobook Production: Challenges and Solutions [39:00]

Joanna asks Jin about her aversion to producing audiobooks and her strategies to manage this aspect.

Jin Stephens:
"I find audiobook production time-consuming and laborious. Initially, I did it myself, but now I prefer hiring professionals to ensure quality and reduce the workload." ([39:00])

Key Points:

• Time Investment: Audiobook production requires significant effort, making it less appealing.
• Professional Assistance: Hiring audio engineers and using services like Atticus streamline the process.
• Quality Assurance: Ensuring the audiobook matches the book’s quality through professional help.

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7. Transitioning from Traditional to Self-Publishing [41:24]

The discussion shifts to Jin’s experiences with traditional publishing and her decision to return to self-publishing.

Jin Stephens:
"While I appreciate the support from traditional publishers, such as copy editing and cover design, the lack of control over certain elements like titles and Amazon listings pushed me back to self-publishing." ([43:26])

Key Points:

• Control Over Content: Preferring to make final decisions on titles, covers, and other creative aspects.
• Financial Considerations: Higher earnings potential through self-publishing despite the initial lower advance offers.
• Balanced Approach: Utilizing freelance professionals to maintain a high-quality product independently.

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8. Building and Managing Online Communities [46:36]

Joanna explores Jin’s strategy for building a robust online community, particularly her move from Facebook to a private platform.

Jin Stephens:
"Leaving Facebook was crucial to protect my community from political toxicity and ensure focused support. Transitioning to a paid private community on Circle helped foster a more engaged and supportive environment." ([47:09])

Key Points:

• Platform Limitations: Facebook's algorithm changes and policy enforcement posed risks to her large fasting community.
• Private Community Benefits: Enhanced control, reduced exposure to negativity, and increased member commitment through paid access.
• Community Moderation: Implementing stringent rules to maintain a positive and productive environment.

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9. Marketing Through an Author Ecosystem [56:49]

Jin discusses her natural “funnel” approach to marketing, integrating her podcast, books, and community without aggressive sales tactics.

Jin Stephens:
"My podcast leads listeners to my books, which in turn lead them to my community. It’s a natural ecosystem where each component supports the others organically." ([57:14])

Key Points:

• Integrated Marketing: Utilizing multiple platforms that complement each other to create a cohesive author ecosystem.
• Content Accessibility: Offering free resources like podcasts and accessible books to attract and retain an audience.
• Autonomous Growth: Allowing word-of-mouth and organic discovery to drive community and book sales without intrusive marketing.

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10. Leveraging AI and Tools in Publishing [Amazon and AI Tools]

Joanna briefly mentions Amazon's discontinuation of Kindle Vella and discusses the rise of AI tools like ChatGPT and Perplexity AI for book discovery and writing.

Jin Stephens:
"Using AI tools can enhance the book discovery process by allowing more nuanced searches and personalized recommendations, which is beneficial for both authors and readers." ([AI Tools Segment])

Key Points:

• Platform Shifts: Navigating changes in publishing platforms and leveraging alternative avenues for serial storytelling.
• AI Integration: Incorporating AI tools to improve book marketing strategies, enhance writing processes, and facilitate better reader engagement.

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11. Final Thoughts and Advice for Authors

Jin offers her insights on self-publishing, community building, and maintaining authenticity in authorial work.

Jin Stephens:
"Be confident in who you are and what you offer. You don’t need to please everyone, just your target audience. Focus on quality and genuine connections rather than quick sales." ([62:10])

Key Points:

• Authenticity: Staying true to one’s voice and mission is paramount for long-term success.
• Selective Engagement: Building a community that resonates with your work promotes sustained support and positive word-of-mouth.
• Continuous Improvement: Regularly updating and refining work ensures it remains relevant and valuable to readers.

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12. Conclusion

Joanna wraps up the episode by summarizing the key takeaways: the importance of knowing when to update content, the benefits of self-publishing for greater control and better financial returns, the value of building a dedicated community, and leveraging natural marketing ecosystems without invasive sales techniques. She encourages listeners to explore Jin’s books and podcast for further insights into effective intermittent fasting and self-publishing strategies.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jin Stephens on Self-Publishing Control [43:26]:
  "I wanted to maintain control over every aspect of my book, from the title to the Amazon listing. Self-publishing allows me to ensure my work is presented exactly as I envision it."

• Jin Stephens on Community Value [47:09]:
  "Moving to a private community has not only protected my members from negativity but also enriched our interactions, making support more meaningful and personalized."

• Jin Stephens on Marketing Ecosystem [57:14]:
  "My podcast leads people to my books, which lead them to my community. It’s a natural ecosystem where each component supports the others organically."

• Jin Stephens on Authenticity [62:10]:
  "Be confident in who you are and what you offer. You don’t need to please everyone, just your target audience."

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Key Takeaways:

• Evaluate the Need for a Second Edition: Regularly assess whether your existing work requires updates based on new insights and reader feedback.
• Embrace Self-Publishing for Control and Profitability: Self-publishing offers greater autonomy over content and potentially higher earnings compared to traditional publishing.
• Build and Nurture a Dedicated Community: Transitioning to a private, paid community can enhance member engagement and provide a safer space for support.
• Utilize Integrated Marketing Strategies: Develop a natural ecosystem where your podcast, books, and community mutually reinforce each other without aggressive sales tactics.
• Leverage AI Tools for Enhanced Publishing Processes: Incorporate AI technologies to streamline book discovery, writing, and marketing efforts.
• Maintain Authenticity and Focus: Stay true to your voice and mission, focusing on genuine connections with your audience rather than attempting to please everyone.

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Additional Resources:

• Jin Stephens’ Website: jenstevens.com – Access to her books, podcast, and community.
• Intermittent Fasting Stories Podcast: Explore Jin’s podcast for personal stories and expert insights on intermittent fasting.
• Books Mentioned:
  • Delay Don't Deny
  • Fast Feast Repeat
  • Clean Fast

For more detailed insights and actionable advice, listen to the full episode of The Creative Penn Podcast with Jin Stephens.

Transcript

[Joanna Penn]

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives. I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 779 of the podcast and it is Friday the 1st of November 2024. As I record this in today's show, I'm talking about returning to self publishing with a second edition after a traditional deal with Jin Stevens, who some of you might know from the intermittent Fasting Stories podcast. I'm also writing a second edition at the moment for how to Write nonfiction. So we had a great discussion about when you feel it's time for a new edition and whether it's worth it, what might need updating, as well as why Jin is self publishing this time around and what she enjoys about that and why she left Facebook to start a private community and why that's been great for her mental health and her business. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing Things. Well, Amazon announced the end of Kindle Vella this week, saying Kindle Vella hasn't caught on as we'd hoped. It will wind up in February 2025. So I was never in Vella. I don't write serials, I don't read serials, and it also remained us only throughout the whole time. But lots of authors did get involved with it and other SER platforms. So it is time to find a new home. Maybe Wattpad, Royal Road, some people even using substack. But make sure to check the contracts and remember the contract is the terms of service when you upload to a site or you use a site for publishing. And some of the serial platforms have stricter terms, so definitely read those. Now. This is not unusual that a platform will shut down and over the years I've been publishing really sort of paying attention, writing for publication since 2006. Multiple platforms, multiple companies and also small presses have been bought. They've shut down, some badly, some just in a normal way. Different publishing platforms, nothing stays the same. I mean Jeff Bezos has always said that even Amazon will be disrupted one day. So this is just another reminder to make sure you try to drive people to your email list so you have a way to tell people how to buy your books in future if something like this happens to the platform you're publishing on or your publisher or whatever else we need to have backups because everything changes and sometimes it changes really fast. So I am also still reading Seth Godin's book. This is strategy. It's not a sit down and read in one sitting kind of book. It's more short chapters to think about. But it's definitely a good business book. I recommend it. And this week Seth posted his five lessons from week one of the book launch, which had a lot of interesting things in so he said the world of books is a metaphor for a lot of industries where old methods aren't working well but persist in sticking around. First time authors are often pushed into a cycle of hustle and scarcity which leads to burnout and disappointment. In their rush to reach strangers, traditional publishers ignore the opportunity to dance with people who are already excited. In my case, thanks to Purple Space, which is Seth's community, his subscription community and the loyal readers of this blog. There were folks eager to offer me the benefit of the doubt. And I'm not in Seth's community, but I do get his blog. And so when I saw he had a new book out, I bought it. He says the first step to publishing a book well begins long before you decide to write a book. Create the scaffolding for the idea to spread. So he organized groups of people who met to discuss the topics of the book. Hundreds of cities held conversations in and also over 80 bookstores. Now that's a lot of organization. I presume he had someone doing that or maybe someone in his community. He said the book became a catalyst for conversation. Getting a copy wasn't the point. Talking about the work to be done was, although gotta think that 80 bookstores held those events because getting a copy was the point. Some business was also done. He also says ignore false proxies. How many people liked that post on Instagram? How did the book rank on the Times list? What did the first reviewers have to say? It's so easy to see, tempting to manipulate, and ultimately pointless. The proxy of the Times list has been so manipulated that it's now meaningless. Although I don't know. I don't think it is meaningless. I think readers do see it as some kind of sign. But it is a game. I think that's more the point. It is a game. It was a game a decade ago when a bundle of us hit the New York Times list. But it is a difficult game to play if you want to play that. But Seth's really saying ignore those false props proxies then in terms of book marketing he says I did more than 80 podcasts that launched this week. Now, I presume he recorded lots of those in advance and he said the conversations I did, though exhausting, were a foundation for the conversations I hope that others will have going forward. And that is a challenge to all of us. If someone with Seth's platform, his experience, I want to say, like 30 years of publishing books, that's a hardcore launch, 80 podcasts. So that should encourage us all to try and get on more shows. And I don't mean everybody pitch me, I mean everyone go pitch a podcast that might work for you. So it is a great article and that is on Seth blog. Then in AI Things, ChatGPT launched Search this week. So if you query now, there's this little world icon in the chat bar which uses the Internet and it will list sources so you can explore further. So I've been using Perplexity AI, but I'm going to start comparing the too as I use chat for so many other things. Try it for book discovery. This is a cool way to search so you can upload images, obviously. So I took a picture of a what took a screenshot of my Kindle on Mac. It had about 40 books on it. I uploaded the screenshot and basically said, here's some of the books I've read recently. Can you recommend 10 more I would like? And I went through those 10 and I have actually downloaded a sample of one of them. I was really pleased to find some new books read. You could obviously take a picture of some of your print books or a snapshot from your phone of your the audiobooks you're listening to or something like that. And you can do a much more nuanced and granular book discovery process this way. So for example, whereas on Amazon you might use quite broad terms like business books 2024, with this kind of search chat, you can say written by millennials in the last two years, or I know, written by authors of colour. Or I was like, I don't just want books written by Americans, give me books written by Europeans, people from different places. I think this is going to be a way to very much find more nuanced search. And I talked about this back in my solo episode number 727 almost a year ago. So last December I did a show on how generative AI will change search and it talks about what is happening now with chatgpt search with perplexity with Bing Bing Chat what Google's doing with their AI box at the top of search. So yes, if you want to have more of more ideas about that, Go back and listen to that on how Generative AI will change search and have some fun discovering more books. In personal news, my short story Sea Henge is out now on my store jfpenbooks.com in ebook and audio and also on some audio stores as well. If you're listening to this on Spotify, you can just search seahenge and it will be the audiobooks already there. It's on pre order in all the usual places for 25th of November. Early reviews are positive, Jeffrey said. It's an atmospheric and thrilling dive into ancient mysteries and supernatural forces. Its plot is engaging, balancing suspense with Pen's meticulous attention to archaeological detail, which enriches the story without overwhelming the reader. And I do like that review because I do try to balance my obsession with research with story. So check that [e-mail] and I narrate the audiobook if you'd like to listen. Also, as this goes out, I should be on the train to Peterborough where I'll be signing the Blood Vintage hardbacks with the lovely dark green sprayed edges at the Book Vault printing factory. And I'll post some pictures on Instagram fpenauthor so you can see the pile. If you backed the campaign, the UK ones should be with you in the next week and in other places before the end of November or early December, depending on how far away where you are in terms of the other editions of Blood Vintage. It is still with my US agent now. It went out on submission in late September, so it's been over a month and we have only had one rejection so far. Apparently that is a good news, a good thing. So either people are too busy with Frankfurt Book Fair and the American elections and they haven't even looked at it, or they might actually be reading it. So we shall see. But it is, it's really my first experience of this kind of waiting game that people play in traditional publishing. But having the the hardback coming out, even though it's a very small print run, it's under 250 books. That's just taken the edge off really. I feel like it has been published, but you won't be able to find it anywhere else. Now this is, this is the very special edition, so I will let you know if anything comes of that. I'm also still working on the second edition of how to Write Non Fiction. As I mentioned, I'm trying to work on a few chapters a day at the moment. It's pretty intense. I've reorganized the whole thing and I'm essentially rewriting almost every chapter, almost every line really. Lots has changed in terms of a lot of the practical stuff, but also my writing craft has moved on. I I will be incorporating aspects of memoir. The books I've written since then, both fiction and non fiction have kind of changed my writing style a bit, but also putting more stuff about memoir. I'm also going to include AI prompts and ways to use different AI tools which I know will date it. But I just can't put this book out without giving tips around AI usage because it helps so much. So yes, that will be coming. And I also want to model Seth Godin on this. He did 80 podcasts at launch. I'm not quite aiming for that, but if you do have a podcast that might fit with how to write non fiction, whether it is a writing show or a different show where business show or other, something that might be tangential for how to write non fiction but useful for the audience and you have more than 50 episodes. That's kind of my cutoff point. And let me know I want to get on shows in either December, January or February. Or if you want to suggest a show I should pitch, let me [e-mail] I definitely think if Seth Godin works so hard for his launch then I need to do the same. This Friday I'm flying to Las Vegas and I will first be doing a research trip to Death Valley for book research for the next book, let's call it the Desert Book and then going to Author Nation. So say hi if you will be there and I will be elbow bumping. I won't be hugging, I won't be masking, but I will be careful. No shaking hands, all of the above. We will all be trying to stay well. We're also having a meetup for patrons so check the Patreon page for details of that. If you are going to Author Nation and you're from a country like mine where it's a lot wetter, then my recommendation is to take a portable humidifier. They're not very expensive and I swear this saved me last time. I ran it all night while I slept and definitely helped. Plus eye drops, nasal spray, lip balm, moisturizer and lots of drinking water in order to hydrate. So yes, let's stay well and have a good conference. Thanks for all your emails and comments and photos this week. David is listening from Ife in Osun, Nigeria and sent a lovely picture from the indoor basketball court in the university where I study law. David's written a book of poems and is now ready to write novels. He says, I will be 24 in December and I hope to have completed the first book by then. Well, all the best with that David. Christina says, Originally I'm from Paraguay and I moved to Florida 37 years ago. I listened to your podcast in the car on my way to work. It has become an essential part of my day and sent a picture of an alligator in a pond, which is a classic view in Florida. Laura sent a video. I thought of you yesterday when I was visiting the Poldi Pezzoli Museum in Milan. Look at this Italian Renaissance two sided portrait of a young man with a Mement Mori on the verso. I love that. Thank you Laura. And finally, Sunni commented on Boris's interview where we were talking about how people always say with short stories, this is too short. And Sunni had to laugh. Had to laugh with you on this. I write flash fiction stories under a thousand words and I get this feedback all the time. There is a certain elegance to short fiction that is sadly underappreciated. Absolutely, I agree with you. I think they are their own genre as such. They are sort of perfect little encapsulation of a story. So yes, all the best with your flash. I can't seem to write flash, but I definitely like the sort of medium length, I guess 5,000 to 8,000 words for a short story for me. Right. So please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel, or message me on X at the Creative Pen or email me, send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation so today's show is sponsored by Atticus, which helps you write and format stunning books in both ebook and print formats. And it is a happy coincidence because you'll hear Jin Stevens raving about using Atticus for formatting in the interview to come. Atticus works across all platforms, so you can use it. Whatever computer you work on. It is safe and secure, you own your data and it's also backed up to the cloud so you don't have to worry about losing anything. There are other kinds of software that do things separately, but Atticus has everything in one place so you can streamline the process, write your book in the editor built for authors with the ability to drag and drop chapters, manage your book goals and writing habit, tracking, word count and all the usual writing elements. You can then use Atticus to format your book or you can import an existing book to format. There are lots of different templates so you can choose the look and feel or use the custom theme builder and then you can preview your book on a variety of devices so you can see what it will look like. Your export will work with any book market and platform so you can get your book out into the world. Happy authors who use Atticus say it is the one app to rule them all and easy to use for new writers. It's a one time payment and you get 30 days money back guarantee so you can start writing and formatting your books straight away. Check it out now@atticus IO. That's atticus IO. So this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] TheCreativePen thanks to the four new patrons who've joined this week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community you get access to everything. All the backlist videos and audio and articles covering topics on creativity and AI writing, publishing, mindset, business and my patron only Q and A solo episodes and office hours. This week I put out an article on seven mistakes authors make with money and there's lots more content coming. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous or with Vegas prices it might be like a quarter of a coffee. You get access to everything, all the backlist content. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com the Creative Pen write right, let's get into the interview.

[Jin Stevens]

Jin Stevens is the New York Times best selling author of Delay, Don't Deny, Fast Feast, Repeat, Clean Ish and other health related non fiction books. She's also a podcaster at Intermittent Fasting Stories.

[Joanna Penn]

So welcome back to the show. Gin.

[Jin Stevens]

Well it is so great to talk to you again.

Yes, it's been a few years now. You have recently released the second edition of Delay Don't Deny and I completely get the pain of subsequent edition. It's just a bit of a nightmare. So I wanted to start by asking you like why did you feel like you wanted to do a second edition of that book instead of writing something new?

Well that is a great question and I have written new things since writing the original Delay Don't Deny. But this original book that I wrote in 2016, Delay don't deny, self published, is just really the bedrock that everything else has been built upon. And I've learned so much more about the topic since I wrote it in 2016. And this book just needed a refresh. Like it needed some love. And I really didn't understand how some people love this one the most. I was speaking at an event a few years ago and someone in the audience said, which of your books should. And we start with Delay, Don't Deny or Fast Feast Repeat. And Fast Feast Repeat was the New York Times bestseller. It's comprehensive, it's thorough, it's thick, it's every question you could possibly ask about intermittent fasting. It's well referenced. And I said of course, start with Fast Feast Repeat. And someone in the audience said, can I disagree? And I'm like, well, go ahead. She said, delay, Don't Deny. I love that one the most. And that got the wheels turning in my head because ever since I moved towards traditional publishing, I hadn't self published anything. And so I thought people love that original book. And I never talked about it anymore. But it kept selling and people kept buying it. But it needed to be updated because some of the advice I did not necessarily agree with anymore. From 2016 to 2024, things are going to change and there are just some things that were out of date. So it deserved some love. And you know what kept me from revising it sooner? The audiobook. Didn't want to re record the audiobook. And of course you want them to match. But finally I just bit the bullet and first I offered it to my publisher and the amount that they wanted to give me for an advance was so itty bitty I was like, well forget that, I'm gonna redo it myself.

[Joanna Penn]

That's interesting.

[Jin Stevens]

I want to come back. So you said the fast Treats Repeat. Now I've got these books, I've got several of your books and Fast Refeat, you said it's comprehensive, it's thick, it's well referenced.

Right.

And you're a scientist, you're. You do a lot of research, you are very knowledgeable. Do you think that actually people don't want the heavy book, they just want the story based book?

Well, it depends on the person. There are people who resonate with each kind and that's what I realized. I would like the one with all the references in there. Definitely. I want to be able to look at them. I actually do that, by the way, when I read a book written by a scientist or a doctor, I'll turn to the reference section and I'll. I'm like, especially if something doesn't sound right, I'm. Let me look at that myself. And I've actually found places where they did not actually represent the study the same way after I read it. It's not what they said about it. And I also want to correct. I am not a practicing research scientist. I have a master's degree in natural sciences and a doctorate in gifted education. At my root, I'm very much a teacher. But I had to write a dissertation. I learned how to research. I learned how to share all of that research as a part of going through my doctoral program. So I just wanted to make that clear. But some people just want the basics. And that's what Delay Don't Deny is for. And so it really. It needed to be updated, like I said, because the people that preferred, you know, just tell me the quick. The quick part, give me the stories they needed. Delayed on Deny. And then I actually am now recommending everyone start with Delay Don't Deny because it might be all you need, but if you want more, that's when it's time to turn to Fast Feast Repeat. And I also think that once you've lived the lifestyle for a while, everything in Fast Feast Repeat will click. If that makes sense, you'll understand it better and you're ready to dig into the science more than maybe on day one.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I discovered you on the podcast years ago, and I still. Still if. It's so funny, though, I almost don't say I'm if anymore because I'm. I never eat breakfast or, you know, okay, very occasionally, but mostly I start after lunch sometime and have sort of an 18:6 type of lifestyle, as you say. And it's almost like I don't even consider that to be if anymore. And I know you've been doing this for years. Do you kind of feel that way sometimes?

It's just what we do. I've been doing it for over 10 years now, and it's just what I do. And I don't have to think about it. You're not like, what am I doing today? What's my window? You just live your life and then you have your window going back to how you used to live way back before you started just feels so foreign. You couldn't even imagine doing it.

[Joanna Penn]

No, it's interesting.

[Jin Stevens]

But coming back on the book, you.

[Joanna Penn]

Said it needed a refresh.

[Jin Stevens]

So I've done several subsequent editions, and I know how that feels. But for people listening, how do you know?

[Joanna Penn]

So you're reading it. Are you just like, oh, my, I can't believe this.

[Jin Stevens]

How did you decide what to keep and what to change?

Well, I know what questions people have, and I know where the confusions lie. And I also. You're familiar with the terminology clean fast, and that is foundational in my work. But what's funny is when I wrote delayed on deny in 2016, we had not started using the terminology clean fast in my groups yet. I came up with that wording at some point in 2017, and it stuck. And so it's just kind of funny that delay don't deny doesn't have the word in clean fast in it. And I also was a little wishy washy about a few things related to the clean fast and how to fast properly. Just because there was the doctor who had written a book, Dr. Jason Fung, the Obesity Code. And he was like, well, have a little lemon if you want. And I didn't want to contradict him in my book. Who am I to contradict him? So I'm like, well, I'll just kind of go along with what he said. And then the longer that I supported people through intermittent fasting and my Facebook groups, we had about 500,000 combined members before I ended up leaving Facebook. And so over time, I realized, yeah, the lemon does make a difference. And, yeah, that little splash of cream does make a difference. And so I became more emphatic, I guess is the word I would use about the clean fast, just because we had it validated with so many people who found that the clean fast changed the whole experience. And so I developed confidence in, I can say with confidence, this is how it works better, and you should give this a try. And by the time fast, Feast, repeat came out in 2020, I was really embraced the idea of the clean fast and very confidently saying, this is what I think would work for you. Better try this. I needed to get that into delay don't deny as well. Not to mention the success stories in the back. Looking back at it through fresh eyes today, when I wrote delay don't deny, I was just leading a small Facebook group at that time. We had like, I don't know, 1500 members or something. I can't even remember. But I just put out into the group, hey, anybody want to share their story in my book, just send it to me and I'll put it in. But I hadn't written anything yet. I didn't have any podcasts yet. I was just leading people who had joined together in a Facebook group. And so the stories are just very interesting that are in the original, delayed on tonight. I'm just gonna say they're interesting because I'm so grateful for the people who share their stories early on, but many of them are not things I would recommend that you do. And so reading through them years later, I'm like, ooh, you know, so what I love more than anything about the revised second edition of Delay, Don't Deny is the success stories section. And I didn't know. I'm like, how am I going to gather them just in my community? Am I going to need to email my whole list? How many stories will come in? But I just put it out into my private intermittent fasting community and said, here's the Google link. Fill out this form if you want to. And then I just left it there. And people submitted their stories, and they're just amazing. And the beauty of it this time is, is that they have read my books and listened to my podcast and been a part of the community. And so all the stories align with the advice I would give. There was nothing that jumped out as, ooh, I wouldn't suggest that someone do that. Instead, they're all aligned. And so that was really, really important to me to get the good stories with the aligned recommendations out there.

And then I guess there'll be some people listening, people who want to write a nonfiction book, you know, they feel a bit like you did, which is, oh, well, there's a doctor who's written a book on this, and may, I can't because I'm not special or whatever it is. And do you think you made the right choice publishing that first edition when you did? And looking back, you're happy with that? You're not embarrassed? Or, like, how can you encourage people to put the book out there where even though, as you say now, maybe everything wasn't perfect, it wasn't perfect.

And if we wait for something to be Perfect or for 100% of everyone to agree with you, you will never do anything. Because if you look at books written by doctors, they don't all agree. Doctors are people with opinions and blinders on for certain things on occasion. And so the more you read and see what's out there and how people disagree, the more you feel like, oh, I can have an opinion, too now. Do I regret putting it out there? Absolutely not. You know, I've sold over 380,000 copies of that first little book. And for a self published book that is only available in paperback through Amazon, I mean, that's it. I don't have it wide. You want the paperback, It's Amazon. That's it. And I feel pretty good about that. And just think of all the lives that have been touched by intermittent fasting. I'm not pretending to be something that I'm not. And I'm very, very clear throughout the book who I am, what my background is like. For example, you mentioned that I have a doctorate in gifted and talented education. And I remember when I first joined, it was like a health and wellness community with influencers, writers, podcasters, a lot of doctors, actual medical doctors in this group. And one of the first things the people running this group said to me is, you're Dr. Stevens. You have a doctorate. You should put doctor on the front of your books. And I'm like, nope, because I am not that kind of doctor and I don't want to misrepresent myself. So be confident in who you are. I know what my skills are. I'm a teacher. I can read things and then teach them to you. I taught math and I'm not a mathematician, I taught history and I'm not a historian. I taught reading and I'm not a linguist or whatever. I am able to teach things and say, here's what I have learned and I'm sharing that with you and here are some resources where you can go learn more. And I think the fact that I'm not a medical doctor and that I am a teacher has been my superpower because people can understand what I write. I'm trained in delivering content. So I, I think that I'm able to do that better than a lot of doctors.

[Joanna Penn]

So yeah, absolutely.

[Jin Stevens]

And there'll be some people listening who listen to the sort of medical podcasts out there, Peter A tear and things like that. Yeah. Where you're like, okay, but I can't listen to this because, because it's way too technical for me. And I mean, intermittent fasting stories is normal people talking about normal life and not using difficult words about whatever hormones. And you do go through things like hormone effect and all of that kind of thing in fast fix repeat, I think. But it's like you don't need that to get started. You can just get started with the story. So I think that's so important and I, I think this is one of the problems with non fiction books is people think they need to be all fact based and Emotionless. But you've written ways with real voice, like your actual voices in the book. So do you have any tips for people there on bringing a subject alive if it gets too heavy?

Well, I think it's just a matter of readers want to connect with stories whether they're reading nonfiction or fiction. We enjoy connecting with stories. Stories are powerful. And so when I first wanted to write a book about intermittent fasting and share what I knew to help people learn, learn how to do it and apply it into their lives, I was really inspired by a set of books that I read when I was pregnant and a new mother. It was the Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy. Do you remember that series?

No. But I'm happily child free so not.

My thing would not be reading that I was pregnant. My babies were born in 98 and 99. So that tells you when those books were really, really popular. Like there was the Bible of pregnancy, what to Expect when youn're Expecting. And that one was dry and it was like, like factual and it. You definitely needed that one. Right? But the girlfriend's God to pregnancy was irreverent and it was funny and it was like a girlfriend was talking to you and you wanted to read it. And I mean I read that multiple times and the same thing with she had the girlfriend's God to the first year and the girlfriend's God to the toddler years. And you just felt like somebody got it right. You're learning about it from someone who got it and it was funny and you didn't feel alone. And I think that when we're thinking about health and wellness and the diet industry, you know, you can read a book written by the person who is a, maybe a nutritionist or a workout expert. And they've never struggled like you, right? They've never been overweight really. Maybe they had to lose five pounds or something. But they've got this book for you and you're like, but do they really get what it's like to weigh 210 pounds? I know what that's like because I did weigh 210 pounds. I was obese and I lost 80 pounds with intermittent fasting. And I know what it's like to be on that diet roller coaster of up and down. And I know what it's like to read all the diet books and try everything and just be so stuck. And so I wanted that to all come through in a way that was relatable because, because it's just very much, it's my story in there. Interwoven through delay, don't deny. But I think the reason people love this book so much, and I've heard this, I don't know, hundreds, thousands of times. I don't even know how many times that people will say, I read that book and I thought, if you can do it, I can do it. And it was just the fact that they felt like it was a real person that was telling them, here's hope, here's the science. I'm putting the science in there, too. It's not just only my story. I have the science in there. I talk about autophagy. I talk about the problem with calories in, calories out, the Biggest Loser study and why low calorie diets fail us. So the science is there. It's got that underpinning of science, but it's also relatable. And you know that you can do it.

Yeah, absolutely. So one of the other interesting things is that when you started out on intermittent fasting over a decade ago, there really wasn't much out there about it. But now it feels like the market is saturated. There's books and podcasts, and you go on TikTok or Instagram or whatever, or reels, and there's positive stuff, there's negative stuff, and there's just a lot of stuff. I mean, even on Amazon, there's just a ton of stuff. So how are you breaking through the noise so that people find your books? Especially when there's a lot of hype, misinformation, and people might put you in the same bracket as some of the people who aren't so good, let's say.

I will say the truth sells, right? And there's a lot of misinformation out there. But the truth, truth will make the difference. The truth of the clean fast, and the way that that will change the experience for you, for everybody listening who may be like, well, I tried intermittent fasting. It didn't work for me. I bet you weren't fasting clean. I bet you were trying something over complicated. My magic secret, which isn't so magic and it's not really a secret, is word of mouth, right? If somebody read my book and let's just say the original delayed on deny, and they read it in early 2017, right when it first hit the market, and then they had great success, well, people around them notice and they're like, hey, what are you doing? And then they tell them, and then you're just spreading the word like that. And that's really been the magic of my work, reaching A lot of people, you know. Yes. I've got the podcast Intermittent Fasting Stories and my newer one, Fast Feast Repeat, we've been doing for just over a year. And people might just stumble across them and then they hear the stories and then they're like, well, let me see what Jen has written. And then they end up with my books. And then they try it and then it works. And then they tell people. There was a commercial in the United States in, I don't know, the 70s, the 80s. It was like a shampoo commercial. And I can't remember. It was Faberge Organics. I can't remember, but it was. And then I told two friends and then she told two friends, and then she told two friends and it was just like, like, yeah, word of mouth really can spread the word. So, yeah, there's a lot of confusing information out there. There are a lot of books on intermittent fasting that are overly complicated. But I think people, those kind of fall from the wayside, you know, Delay, Don't Deny has been selling steadily since I released it at the end of 2016. And other fasting books come and go. And the same with Fast Feast Repeat. It's been selling steadily since 2020. And if you compare it to the other fasting books that are out there, almost 100% of the other fasting books also have a diet plan they want you to follow. Maybe they want you to be intermittent fasting plus Paleo, or maybe they want you to be intermittent fasting plus keto. Or you have to be intermittent fasting plus whole food, plant based, low fat or whatever it might be. You know, my work is be intermittent fasting plus eat the way that makes you feel your best, whatever that is, and it will probably change over time. And it really empowers you. Instead of being a prescriptive plan and people want that. They might not know they want it. They might be used to a prescriptive plan, but there's a lot of magic and being empowered to choose for yourself.

Yeah. And I mean this word of mouth, I totally agree with you. And you said they're selling steadily, which is the mark of word of mouth. It's not like you put everything into the first month and then it all disappears. But this is also one of the.

[Joanna Penn]

Challenges of a second edition, because a.

[Jin Stevens]

True second edition, you lose, lose all those reviews, you lose all the incoming links from all the websites that linked to that edition of the book. So presumably you feel that's worth it because you're essentially that book on Amazon starts Again, essentially it does.

And you know what, I put that out there in August of this year, 2024, and I think it's got 78 reviews already, whereas my other one had like 13,000.

Okay, so yeah, but it takes time, right?

It does take time. But when I'm looking to buy a book, I don't. I look at the overall ratings and I read. I don't. I'm not gonna read 13,000 reviews. Right? And a book with 78 reviews and it's 4.9 stars. I'm gonna be really excited about that book. And I'm very clear in the updated description that it's a second edition. And talk about the updates and how it's changed. I had to really think about that. Since I'm self published, I could have just slipp the revisions in the old.

Exactly.

I could have done it. And I debated about that and decided not to for multiple reasons, one of which is used copies. And then people would accidentally end up with a used copy of the first edition. And I didn't want them to read the first edition anymore. I wanted them to read the second edition. So I just made that decision. And it was not easy. That day that I started with 0, I had 0 reviews on the new edition. But luckily my community, they are of course the ones who found it first. My community found it and they're the ones giving it the five star reviews because they're already fans. So hopefully that will lead more people to it.

And then I gotta return to the audiobook. Cause you said you did not want to do the audiobook. Ah, so tell us, why do you hate doing audiobooks and what are your tips?

I just hate doing audiobooks. But I have to read them myself, right? Because everyone's used to my voice, they listen to my podcast and so I know I have to read it myself. And also I'm gonna give it the right kind of intonation. I know how it should be emphasized, but it's a lot of work and I don't edit audio. I can edit the written word. I can design my own book. By the way, do you, when you design, you self publish, right? You're self published?

Yeah, but I employ freelancers to design things.

Well, yeah, I'm pretty much a one stop shop when it comes to the paperback. I just have started using Attica Atticus for former.

Oh yes, sponsor of the show.

Hello, Atticus, you are amazing. I don't know how I found out about it, but that's another reason why I needed to do a second edition. Because embarrassing. My first edition, I did it in Word. It looked crazy when I put them side by side. I mean, people still bought it, but after being traditionally published with professional book designers, I was like, oh my gosh, Delay, don't deny. Looks like I made it on Word. Whereas the second edition is just beautiful. Thank you, Atticus. But the thing about the audiobook is I had to hire somebody. I had to go to a recording studio and still going through the editing process right now. And so it's just a lot of work. It's like running a marathon.

Yeah, it's definitely something you have to get used to. After my first audiobook I did myself, I was like, never again. And then I started hiring people and then I went back to it. I've got an audio studio here in my office. Office. So I just now do it myself. And there's a lot of AI tools you can use for editing. And so I think it depends how many books you end up doing yourself. Well, maybe there's more.

I'm grateful that I can outsource. Just like you said, you send some things to designers. For me, it's the audio part and that's the part I want everyone who's listening to hear be confident in the part you can do. And also be confident in the part you can do. Because if that's the part holding you back, you can hire somebody to do stuff for you. You and get a professional product out there.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah, absolutely. So let's come to the publishing bit.

[Jin Stevens]

Because like you said, you started out in self publishing, but then you did several books with traditional publishers. So what did you love about traditional publishing? What did you find useful? What did you enjoy? Since I know you love learning, right.

There are definitely parts that I enjoy. I enjoy having copy editors who read my work and find mistakes, but they also don't find everything. So let me just put it that way. And even after a book has been completely copy edited, things can still get out of whack through the traditional publishing process. I enjoy that there are cover designers to work on the COVID but again also you want to be able to give your input and you have to put your foot down sometimes and say, no, I want it to look more like this. And so that that's important to know. I enjoy that they have a liaison with Amazon. If those scammers get out there, and they will, and they do, putting out their little scam books and it ends up in the listing and they can get right on there with Amazon and get that taken care of for You. So I really enjoy that. It feels great to be supported through the audiobook process. Macmillan Audio handled everything. They set up the studio. All I had to do was show up. There was a director there with me, the audio engineer. And actually two of my audiobooks I did at home because of COVID Like, even though I had macmillan Audio and professional directors, we did it from home with them with me throughout the process. It was just because of COVID both times. But the third time I went to the recording studio and that's where I connected with the guy. When I did my latest book, 28 Day Fast Start Day by Day, which was my last to be traditionally published, they found the audio engineer with the recording studio close to me. So I didn't have to try to, like, put blankets up in my office, for example, like I did the last two times in my little blanket recording fort. And so that was really, really nice, having the professionals to go through it and listen to it and make sure it's just right, all of that. It's just nice to have those eyes. So I learned a lot and I think it made me have a better product. Like I said, looking at the results of how my first edition looked compared to how my second edition looks, it just made me bump it up. And you want to have a book that compares?

Yeah, I think I said. And people listening know you can hire editors, you can hire cover designers, as you have done, you can hire audience audio people. You can hire pretty much everyone now, a lot of whom used to work for traditional publishing. So there's options both ways. But what's interesting, of course, and you mentioned that the advance you were offered was not enough to be interesting.

Right.

But were there other reasons you decided to go indie with this book?

Well, just because Delight on Deny is like, I wanted it. Like, I wanted it. And that's one of the trade offs of working with a traditional publisher. From the title to the book cover, to what they put on the back, to what's written in the Amazon listing. Like every single one of my traditionally published books. The way it's worded in the Amazon listing is not the way I would word it. Every one of them. The back matter is not the way I would have worded it. But as a part of the collaborative process, you might get a first draft from your editor and then you're like, no, this part. And you make suggestions, but it's still somebody else is uploading that to Amazon. Somebody else is doing all of that. And, you know, I mentioned to you before we recorded in an email. I have another book that I'm going to be working on and my agent shopped it to my editor and I got a very substantial six figure advance offer from it and I have turned it down and I'm going to self publish the new book as well. I mean, it made total sense to, to do the second edition of Delay, don't deny myself. But for a new book with a great advance offer from a traditional publisher that I enjoy working with. I love my editor, I love my agent, they're great people, they have a great team. But I looked back at a book that I wrote in 2017 called Feast Without Fear and I haven't talked about that one much. And I looked at my earnings from 2017 through today and my earnings on that little book I never really talk about are almost as much as the big six figure advance that they are offering me. And like, huh, why would I traditionally publish it when I can put it out there myself? And I have an audience of people who are going to be interested in reading what I have to put out there. And of course it's not all about the money. But now that I have realized with Atticus and I've got someone who can help me with the audiobook, I really can do it myself now. I have the skills to do it. I have the support. And so everything that I really enjoyed about traditional publishing, I can make my new book look very professional and do it myself and retain the royalties and have control. But the new book that got in my head, and I have it a little bit outlined, both my agent and my editor said, I like the idea, but you're gonna need to work on the title. We don't really like that. And I'm like, well, I don't want to work on the title. I really like it the way I want it. And so just all those little things along the way that you lose control when you do traditional publishing and just, you know, that's important when you're a writer and you're a little bit of an artist too. And you want it like you want it.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah, I think that's important.

[Jin Stevens]

One of the biggest things there, of course, is that you have a community now, like everyone. You started with no community, so you did have nobody. And then over time, like you said, you started on Facebook groups, but you also mentioned that you left Facebook and you have a paid community on Circle. And this is something that many people are petrified, A, of leaving Facebook, but B, starting a paid community. So can you maybe talk about that? Why you did it, why you left, and any tips.

Now, I could do like a five hour show about why I left. When I left, it was the end of 2020, going into 2021. And you can remember what a charged time that was on Facebook. Okay, now imagine I'm running health related groups, and also imagine that there are almost 500,000 combined members. So you could just imagine how charged that time was and how difficult it was. One thing about Facebook groups, especially in the health and wellness committee or community, is that Facebook was shutting people down for things. I mean, I don't know if they're still doing that in groups. I don't really know since I don't run any groups. But I can remember somebody that was actually in my community, in my. My Facebook community had some sort of recipe group or something related to food. And it was a Facebook group with maybe 10,000 members. And she woke up one day and the entire group had been shut down by Facebook and there was no way for her to get it back. And I thought, what if Facebook decides that fasting is dangerous and shuts me down? I would have no recourse that it would all be lost, that all these people that are in my community would just be gone. And we got dings against our group for things like AI didn't like certain wording. Like, they really don't like the word fat. But in a fasting community, there's something called being fat adapted, and that is actually a good thing. You want to be fat adapted, meaning your body has flipped the metabolic switch, running on fat easily. But AI would be like, you use the word fat and you're the admin. Three more strikes, we'll shut down your group. I mean, you'd get like an AI generated ding. Somebody who was a moderator accidentally did some emoji and then she's like, oops, sorry, I didn't mean to pick the angry emoji. Fat thumb. Ding. Bullying. She's like, wait, no, that was me. I said I had fat thumbs. We know what fat thumbs means, right? It's not bullying.

It doesn't mean fat.

No, it means you accidentally clicked the wrong thing. And so there was that fear of losing my whole community. And there was also a little bit of wandering off the street in Facebook, if you know what I mean. People could find you by accident, and that was beautiful, but also not always, because people would find you by accident and they wouldn't have any idea about you or anything about you or your books or your podcast or what you recommended. And then they would come in hot and then argue with you about things. And I just want to support people who are bought into the clean fast. I want to support people who have similar goals, who have similar philosophies towards fasting. I don't want to argue with people who think that bulletproof coffee is a great way to start your day when you're fasting. There are communities where those people can be really happy, but I don't want to have to to police that all day long. And so I would like a community where I can support people who are following the advice that I give. You know, I don't want to argue with anyone on Facebook ever again until the day that I die, pretty much. So it was hard because, like I said, I had a giant community. And I thought, maybe I'm only selling books, and maybe people are only listening to my podcast because of my Facebook groups. Maybe leaving Facebook will make it all stop and that'll be the end. And I said, it is worth it. Even if that is true, it is worth it. So I started my private community. I hope some people were mad. People that were used to being in my Facebook group for free were super mad. They're like, I read your book, I bought your book, and now you're asking me to pay for your community. I'm like, well, buying a book means you get a book. You got the book, right? I don't know why reading a book means you get free support for the rest of your life from me, the authority. It doesn't. And so the people who joined my community wanted my support. They wanted my advice, they wanted to interact with me, and they were willing to pay for it. And it's like $9.99 a month. I'm not really asking a lot, but $9.99 a month weeds out the people who really don't want to be in my community. And so I have a wonderful community, and I love interacting with the people there. And they ask questions and. And we help them. People post their struggles, they post their successes, and the right people find it who are excited to be there. And so that fear that I had when I left, I'm so glad that I did it anyway. You know, everything good I've ever done, I did it full of fear. I did it anyway, and it's been worth it. And I love my community so very much, and I'm grateful for everyone who has moved over with purpose.

Yeah, I think it's such a big thing. So at the end of 2023, I did something similar with content which I've put within my patreon. So I've got a patreon. But I did the same thing. It was like, I'm getting too much hate talking about specific things. I'm just gonna put a very small paywall up. And it.

[Joanna Penn]

The.

[Jin Stevens]

The difference to mental health is tremendous. Right. I was around you at that time and I remember how stressed you sounded around the stuff on Facebook. Right.

Well, it was awful in the summer of 2020 when everything was really politically charged and we had a no politics rule in our Facebook groups. But something happened while I was sleeping one night where someone tried to post something political and my moderators did not allow it because we're not a political group. We're a Facebook group. And whether I did or didn't agree with the post, we're not going to have political posts. Right. And so the person got really upset that the moderators wouldn't let them post something. And then instead of just whatever, they went to Amazon and left a one star review on my book and said really mean things that were untrue about me and my personal philosophies. And I wasn't even awake. I was sleeping the whole time when it happened. And so I was like, oh, we can't have this, you know, and so that made me realize that there does need to be a little bit more gatekeeping. We're not going to be political in my group, no matter where we are. We're going to help you with fasting. We're going to help you with your questions. We're not going to talk about your political leanings, no matter whether I agree with them or whether I don't. And I hope people have no idea where I stand politically. That's what I want. Because you got plenty of content for that. Jen Stevens doesn't need to be part of it, if you know what I mean.

[Joanna Penn]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Jin Stevens]

And so are you on any social media at all?

Well, I am on Facebook as Jen Stevens, the person. I left Facebook. When I said I was leaving Facebook, I wasn't kidding. And I took the app off my phone. I did not open it or look at it for over a year. And I mean, like, even like, what are my high school friends doing? What are my college friends doing? I didn't know I was in my bubble because I was like, it almost felt like ptsd, honestly. But when I realized, you know what, I can go back on Facebook as Jen Stevens person, and I went in first of all. Then I like unfriended Everybody that I didn't really know. Yeah, there were some people that I had met through intermittent fasting that I really liked. And I kept them because some of them were in my new community, some of them weren't. I considered them friends. Some of them had maybe been on our cruises before COVID And so I really weeded it out. And so now Facebook really is my friends. It's people that I have from college, people that I grew up with, people I worked with, kids I taught. I mean, I can go on Facebook and just be me. I don't interact on Facebook a lot. I definitely do not do any political commentary with friends who I may or may not agree with. I just ignore those. And I just like, oh, what's she doing? Oh, she went to a concert. That's nice. I'm using Facebook like it was originally intended. And I'm not talking about intermittent fasting at all. Instagram is a different kind of beast. The problem with Instagram is being a public figure on Instagram makes people sometimes think that anything you post they can then, like, feel free to comment on in different ways. And I don't care for that. I posted a picture of me and my husband just on Instagram, just Jen Stevens, the person wasn't a fasting post. And then some of the comments. One person wanted to critique intermittent fasting stories, and one person wants fasting coaching. I'm like, no, no. This is me and my husband on the porch. If you want fasting coaching, you will not get it through the comments on Instagram. Sorry. And don't critique my podcast here. Leave it a review. If you really need to say something, give it a review. Don't want to see that. I don't go read my one star reviews. I just don't. No matter where it is, I don't want to see that. And I know they're out there, but I don't want to see it. It made me feel very reluctant to even post anything on Instagram. So sometimes I will. But I don't go back in and monitor the comments or even read them anymore. And here's a little secret for everybody who's listening. Most people who are commenting back to you on Instagram, that's someone on their staff doing it. It not really them. Anyone who is like, quote, an influencer. Right. You know, and I don't have any staff. I don't have people going in commenting as me. So I just don't read it. And I don't have to comment or have hurt feelings. I guess that's the way I deal with it. I'm here to help you if you would like my help. If you don't, that's fine too. There's other people out there that might resonate with you more. Go. Go explore their content. If you don't like what I have to say, if you think the clean fast sounds really dumb and you want to have what, whatever, do it. I'm here to guide the people who are interested in what I have to say, and it's taken me a long time to get to this point. You can't please everybody, and if you try, you'll just make yourself really unhappy. So please the people who you please. They are your people.

[Joanna Penn]

Yep.

[Jin Stevens]

You have to have the boundaries. I know we're almost out of time, but I did just want to, because I know people are now going, whoa, how does she get traffic to her books and her community? So it's your business model. So you've got the Intermittent Fasting Stories podcast, and you've got a second podcast, which are your main, I guess, the way people find you. And then you've got the books and you've got the community, and that's it.

[Joanna Penn]

Right?

[Jin Stevens]

You know, but here's what's funny. My business plan was zero business plan. I started my first Facebook group in 2015 with no plan. I was a school teacher. I had no plan for intermittent fasting to be my business. I just started a Facebook group to support me and my friends who had seen me lose £75. And I wanted a place where it was me and my friends who we could talk about it. I'd been in some other Facebook groups as I was losing the weight. And again, I don't want to argue with people on Facebook. So that's why I started my own group, because I was like, I'm not going to argue with people. But then, of course, you can't stop doing that on Facebook when people join and want to argue with you. Which is why I love Facebook. But it grew because I had a very welcoming community and people. You saw the positive interactions. We kept the arguing behind the scenes. It was just a very, very friendly community. And it was heavily moderated. I had a group of volunteer moderators, and they were wonderful. I'm so grateful to them. But it was still hard to keep that on Facebook. So I also started podcasting. I released my first book at the end of 20, 2016. Put it out There wasn't podcasting yet. People just found the Facebook groups, they found the books. And then when people would find the books that would lead them to the Facebook group. When people would find the Facebook group, that would lead them to the book. But again, I was just selling books one at a time. Then I started podcasting, and my first podcasting experience was in 2017, and I no longer do that particular podcast, but I did it for five years. So then people would find the podcast first, and that would lead them to the book and lead them to the community. And then I started my own podcast that was Intermittent Fasting Stories. And that's really been the baseline for me ever since. Here's a suggestion I have for people. If you're naming a podcast, name it something that people will find, like Intermittent Fasting Stories. If someone's looking for Intermittent fasting, they're going to find that because it's the key word and the title. And so if your podcast is out there and people are finding it, it will direct them to the rest of your work. So all of my things, and I didn't know anything about the word funnel, right? I didn't know that word. And then when I talked earlier about joining this community of people that are health and wellness practitioners and influencers, who are writers and podcasters and getting the word out there, and, like, one of the first sessions was all about, like, your funnel. And they're like, what's your funnel? What's your email? And I'm like, I don't have any of this. But then I realized I really did. My podcast leads people to my book. My podcast leads people to my community. My books lead people to my podcast. My books lead people to my community. You can't consume one thing without finding the other things. If you like my podcasts, you will like my books. If you like my podcast, you will like my community. And so just really letting people find you and then leading them to the other things that you have. And my whole reason for being is not, what else can I sell you? You know, podcasts are free. You can read my books for free. You can get them from the library. You can get them from Audible. I mean, literally, you can find the content out there. You can get the ebook from your library app, right? If your library doesn't have the ebook, ask them to get it. And so you can join my community for a very small price. So it's not like I'm going to sell you more and more things, but the funnel kind of leads people to what they want. And I'm thinking about. I'm saying the word funnel, but it's like my own Little definition of funnel.

It's an I use ecosystem. You've got like an ecosystem.

There you go. But it's a natural funnel. It's not like click funnels, where now I'm going to put you on my email list and try to sell you 42 things a week. No, it's not like that. I don't, by the way, I don't send out email newsletters. I just.

[Joanna Penn]

You.

[Jin Stevens]

If you are in my email list, you get a notification every time a new podcast episode drops and that's it. I'm not, like, always trying to sell you things.

I love it. I absolutely love this. People are like, what? She doesn't have a proper email list.

She doesn't have one, but it's social media for it. And what's really funny, also in the group that I was a part of this teaching you how to be a successful entrepreneur in the world, and they're like, getting an email list is the most valuable thing. And I was in the summit and they were like, you had so many people with the summit that you win the email list. I'm like, no, thank you. They're like, what? I'm like, yeah, I don't want that email list.

[Joanna Penn]

No, that's terrible.

[Jin Stevens]

That's really unethical of them as well.

But I mean, that's the name of the game is growing your email list so you can sell people things. And that is not what I want to do. And I could sell fasting supplements. But you don't need fasting supplements, everybody. I could sell fasting electrolytes, but you don't need me to. I mean, you just don't need it. Fasting coffee. I could sell you fasting coffee, but guess what? All coffee is fasting coffee. Get the kind you like anyway. You have to joke about it.

Oh, no, you do, you do. And I think, although I do remember you do have a partner with some wine. Right? I remember your wine recommendations.

I definitely will have affiliate links to things I love. I'm not against doing that, but. But I also turn down a whole lot of sponsors or affiliate relationships if I don't love it, we're not doing it. And there are so many things that were like, oh, we would like to advertise our whatever on your. I'm like, no, no, I'm the same.

I think our reputation is more important than a quick buck.

[Joanna Penn]

So I get that.

[Jin Stevens]

Absolutely.

Yeah. But tell people where they can find you and your books and the podcast.

[Joanna Penn]

And your community online.

[Jin Stevens]

Well, if you just go to JenStevens.com that will funnel you everywhere. And gin is g I n like gin and tonic and Stevens is with a ph jenstevens.com and there are links there to my books and to my community and to my podcasts. And if it all resonates with you and it sounds like what you would like to do, I would love to support you. If you would like to follow a more complicated kind of fasting, you could do that too. But I wouldn't. You don't need to fast according to the Moon, and you don't need to change 100% of what you're eating. You are empowered to find the intermittent fasting approach that works for you, and that's what I will help you do. We're not all the same, and I've said this before, someone could follow me around and do exactly what I do and have different results. So my job is to help you figure out what works best for you.

Fantastic. Thanks so much for your time, Jin. That was great.

Thank you.

[Joanna Penn]

So I hope you found this episode useful if you are considering a second edition of your book or you wanted to think about publishing options, or if you needed some encouragement to reduce your social media usage. Also, if you're interested in intermittent fasting, then check out Delay, Don't Deny and have a listen to the Intermittent Fasting Stories podcast. That is where I first encountered Gin and I'm also on that show. The episode is a couple of years years old now, but yes, I'm on there. As ever, I love to hear your thoughts about the interview or about anything I talk about in the introduction. Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel, or email me joannathecreativepenn.com Send me pictures of where you're listening. Next week I'm Talking to Leon McAnally about dark tourism and self publishing premium print books with lots of images and how the permissions process works, which is if you're a regular listener, you know, is something I'm very interested in. Around the Gothic Cathedral book, which I am still thinking about. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today.

[Jin Stevens]

I hope you found it helpful.

[Joanna Penn]

You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] if you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X at the Creative Pen or on Instagram and facebookenauthor. Happy Writing and I'll see you next time.