The Happy Writer With Marissa Meyer

Summary

Summary of "The Happy Writer With Marissa Meyer"
The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Marissa Meyer
Release Date: February 17, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers, host Joanna Penn engages in an insightful conversation with Marissa Meyer, a New York Times bestselling author known for her Lunar Chronicles series. Their discussion revolves around maintaining joy and fulfillment in the writing process, navigating the challenges of the publishing industry, and effective strategies for book marketing.

---

Marissa Meyer's Journey to Writing

Marissa Meyer shares her lifelong passion for storytelling, which began in childhood through creating and narrating stories. Her academic journey includes a bachelor's degree in creative writing and a master's degree in publishing, equipping her with both creative and business acumen essential for a successful writing career.

“I started making up stories and telling them to my parents, asking them to write them down into little books for me. And then as I got older, I of course started writing them myself.”
— Marissa Meyer [00:22:08]

Meyer recounts her early career as an editor at a small publishing house in Seattle, focusing on fine art books. This role provided her with invaluable insights into the behind-the-scenes aspects of book production and marketing. After five years, she transitioned to freelance typesetting and proofreading, which eventually led to her first novel's success and her full-time writing career.

“Working as an editor taught me a lot about what goes into creating a book—the actual production, the marketing—so it really solidified my passion for writing.”
— Marissa Meyer [00:24:12]

---

Redefining the Creative Process: The Happy Writer Mindset

Marissa introduces her book, "The Happy Writer," aiming to challenge the conventional stereotype that writing equates to suffering and pain. She emphasizes focusing on the positive aspects of writing to foster a more joyful and sustainable creative process.

“I am one of those who feel like many writers think suffering and pain is more of a hallmark of the creative process. So if writers are not feeling the joy, then what?”
— Marissa Meyer [00:25:12]

She encourages writers to reconnect with what they love about their craft—be it crafting intricate plots, drawing inspiration from everyday life, the research process, or the satisfaction of holding a finished book.

---

Overcoming Writer's Block and Finishing Projects

Meyer addresses the common struggle of completing writing projects, especially during challenging phases like the "murky middle." She advises writers to recall their initial excitement by writing down what they love about their project. This technique serves as a motivational tool to persevere through difficult writing periods.

“If I'm a third of the way through and suddenly hating it, I'll go back and remind myself why I chose this project.”
— Marissa Meyer [00:30:12]

Regarding her writing process, Marissa shares that her approach varies depending on the project. Sometimes she writes out of order, drafting exciting scenes to maintain momentum, while other times, especially with complex plots, she writes linearly to ensure narrative cohesion.

“It really depends on the project. Some books are more difficult than others, and in those cases, writing linearly can reduce mental gymnastics.”
— Marissa Meyer [00:33:03]

---

Filling the Creative Well

To maintain creativity, Meyer suggests various strategies such as experiential research, engaging with nature, spending time with family, or tackling non-writing projects to clear mental clutter. She highlights the importance of intentional breaks to rejuvenate the creative spark.

“Sometimes the best thing you can do is take a step back and do it intentionally.”
— Marissa Meyer [00:34:16]

She emphasizes that taking time off doesn't mean abandoning writing but rather allowing oneself the space to refill the creative well, which can lead to renewed inspiration and ideas.

---

Developing and Maintaining a Series

When discussing writing series, Meyer emphasizes the importance of planning character arcs and maintaining consistency across books. She likens the progression of a series to leveling up in a video game, with each installment presenting new challenges and growth opportunities for characters.

“Think of it like old video games where every level ends with a boss, but each one is a step up from the last.”
— Marissa Meyer [00:38:33]

This approach ensures that characters evolve and the narrative remains engaging across multiple books, preventing stagnation and keeping readers invested.

---

Managing the Author's To-Do List: Learning to Say No

Meyer acknowledges the never-ending to-do list that authors often face, combining writing, publishing, and marketing responsibilities. She shares personal struggles with being a "yes person" and the importance of recognizing one's limitations. By understanding that saying yes to one task means saying no to others, she advocates for prioritizing activities that align with one's goals and well-being.

“When you say yes to something, you are also saying no to something else.”
— Marissa Meyer [00:43:45]

She advises authors to identify their priorities, set boundaries, and make deliberate choices about how to allocate their time, thereby reducing overwhelm and avoiding burnout.

---

Navigating Traditional Publishing and Querying

Marissa discusses her experiences with traditional publishing, emphasizing the importance of preparing the best possible manuscript and query materials. She underscores the value of celebrating the milestone of sending out queries, regardless of the outcome, and suggests moving forward by starting new projects to maintain momentum.

“Celebrate, because it's such a huge accomplishment to get to the point where you're querying.”
— Marissa Meyer [00:48:29]

Meyer also addresses the reality of changing agents or publishers, reassuring that such transitions are common and manageable. She highlights the importance of being one's own advocate and ensuring that publishing relationships remain beneficial and aligned with the author's evolving goals.

“We really have to speak up for ourselves first and foremost.”
— Marissa Meyer [00:54:32]

---

Making Book Marketing Enjoyable

To make marketing more enjoyable, Meyer recommends focusing on platforms that authors genuinely enjoy, such as Instagram over Facebook or Twitter, and establishing a consistent posting schedule that fits one's capacity. She also suggests batching marketing tasks like brainstorming and content creation to increase efficiency and reduce daily pressures.

“Pick and choose the things that you do get some enjoyment out of and set boundaries around it.”
— Marissa Meyer [00:54:50]

By tailoring marketing efforts to personal preferences and lifestyles, authors can enhance their marketing effectiveness while maintaining their well-being.

---

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with key takeaways on maintaining joy in writing, balancing professional and personal life, effective strategies for overcoming writing challenges, and practical tips for managing the business side of being an author. Marissa Meyer's insights provide a roadmap for writers to cultivate happiness and sustainability in their creative endeavors.

“If you can see where burnout is looming, take a step back and reorganize your priorities.”
— Marissa Meyer [00:unknown] [Summary]

Joanna Penn encourages listeners to reflect on their own writing practices and consider implementing strategies discussed in the episode to enhance their enjoyment and productivity as writers. She also previews the next episode focused on Kickstarter for authors, emphasizing the ongoing support and resources offered through The Creative Penn community.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode serves as an invaluable resource for writers seeking to foster a more joyful and sustainable creative process. Marissa Meyer's experiences and advice offer practical solutions to common challenges faced by authors, making it a must-listen for anyone looking to thrive in their writing career.

Transcript

[Joanna Penn]

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show hello creatives, I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 795 of the podcast and it is Thursday the 13th of February 2025. As I record this in today's show, I'm talking about the Happy Writer with Marissa Meyer. How to keep the joy and flow in your writing and business processes, the ups and downs of the publishing journey, tips for happy publishing and book marketing as well as writing and much more. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Self Publishing Things. The Self Publishing with Ally podcast has a session with Joe Solari on how authors can price their books for profit. It's quite a short listen and I really recommend it. It's a lot about reframing, he says. If you're asking what should I price my book? You're starting with the wrong question. The question you should be asking is who isn't reading my books yet and why? Pricing isn't about numbers. It's a tool for creating opportunities to connect with readers who haven't discovered your books yet. And it's a way for building a sustainable, profitable strategy and identifying with who sees the value in your product and what they're willing to pay. Different readers value different things and pricing is your lever to attract the right audience. So he gives lots of examples. But a subscription reader is someone who pays a flat monthly fee and they value endless books at no additional cost. They are loyal to the platform, not you. A collector, on the other hand, or a super fan also may pay a premium for a signed special edition because they value exclusivity or ownership. So this is why as a business it's great to have more than one book and more than one format because then you can just do different things. So you can have some ebooks in KU or Kobo plus, which is a non exclusive program, an unlimited subscription or audiobooks on Spotify for their subscription or Audible as well as selling direct as well as limited edition signed hardbacks with foil and sprayed edges and custom end papers, plus of course the usual paperbacks. So you just have to think about pricing as about different types of people who want different types of things. Jo goes into value optimization. Are you building a sustainable relationship with your Reader and are you able to collect data to better understand and serve them? Which of course is easier with selling direct and email marketing. Then how can you create opportunities to reach different tiers of customers over time to extract all the value that's possible out of this intellectual property? He gives some actionable steps. Analyze your current position. And I've had, I call it my Asset Master List, but it's list, literally a list of all my books, all the different formats, all the different languages, who I've licensed various rights to. And that Asset Master List has all of those types of things on. Although it actually reminds me I should probably update it. I don't think I've updated it this year. So yes, analyze your current position. Are you primarily reaching readers through discount promotions or subscription services like ku? Are you looking to transition into something like direct sales? Or if you go through your your whole position and you're like, okay, I'm really missing this SEG segment, then have a think about how you can reach them. Experiment with things like offering bundles direct, creating premium editions, and testing free first in series promotions. There are a lot of options and those options expand when you have lots of books because you can do all kinds of things. So that is on the Self Publishing with Ally podcast. So I wanted to mention this. It's really great. Definitely have a listen. There's lots and lots of good value in that episode with Jo Sali. And it also ties into the fact that I am now experimenting with my Brooke and Daniel crime series, which is now in ku. So if you use Kindle Unlimited as a reader, the first book is desecration by J.F. penn. That's my fiction name if you want to give it a try. The main reason I'm doing that is because here in the UK the crime categories are totally dominated in terms of ebooks. They are totally dominated by books in ku. And I struggle to sell that series here in the uk, even with reductions on price on book one because the readership in that category is so heavily ku. So I've decided to give it a try. These books have never been exclusive before and it has actually taken nearly two months in fact. Yeah, definitely two months because I started in mid December to pull them back from wide. Some of the stores you can just unpublish and it's fine or delist, but when you've been wide for a long time, things end up on sites you're like, how on earth did it get there? Of course you can't help piracy, but the stores where I could, I'VE had to raise tickets to remove them and it's been quite a big deal. But now I'm going to give it a try. I'll see what I can do with free promotions every 90 days. I do want to write more books in that series, which is why I'm doing this. I want to see if I can get it moving again within ku. And another reason is that it is a crossover character. So the main character, well, one of the main characters, there's two, but the detective character and then the museum researcher character Blake from Desecration is actually in Day of the Vikings, which is the one I'm writing the screenplay for the adaptation. And in that it's a crossover novella that I wrote to try and sort of get people to cross over between the series. But it's very interesting because action adventure thriller readers and crime readers, they sometimes cross over, but not hugely. So what's funny with this book is that if that, let's say everything works out and it kind of takes off, then I want to be able to have more books in that series. But yes, in Day of the Vikings, Blake works alongside Morgan Sierra from my arcane series as they try and stop the Valkyrie and her group of Neo Vikings summoning Ragnarok. The end of days. So what is also interesting in terms of pricing is that the producer who I had originally pitched Blood Vintage to, he read Blood Vintage, said it was good but wasn't interested in it film wise. But then at the end of Blood Vintage and all my books there is a sign up get a free [e-mail] free if you would also like it. And that free ebook is Day of the Vikings. So basically he read this free novella, Day of the Vikings, and that is the one. He then said, I'm really interested in this as an adaptation and that's the one I'm now writing the screenplay for and going to Berlin to pitch and all this stuff. So who knows where these things sit go, right? They all serve different purposes in our ecosystem. And the more books you write, the more flexibility you have to change things up and do different things with your books. Of course you need to have control over your intellectual property. So this is obviously much easier for independent authors to do. If you are traditionally published, then maybe just write something different. And as long as you haven't signed a contract that says you can't publish anything else under your name, then why not just publish a short story or a novella or a short nonfiction or something under your name that you can use to do things like price promotions, to have the freedom to change things and to do different promotions or offer ebook for free on your email list. If you've signed a contract with a publisher, you can't do that. So you do have to own and control your IP in order to do some of this stuff. But I guess my point is who knows where this will all go. But it's an example of having different options available so people can find and read your work easily across these different segments. And then of course if people do, let's say somebody borrows a book or gets that free book right, hopefully they'll go on at some point to spend some money on premium editions or leave reviews or all the other things that help us as authors. Also, I would add both in thinking about how to reach different market segments with different products and pricing levels, think about how you want your business to be long term. So for example, what is sustainable for you? So if you are only doing ebooks into ku, that is, I think it's a hard business model because you do have to produce a lot regularly. Whereas for example, you could have some of your ebooks in KU and then do a Kickstarter for signed special editions or something that brings you in more money occasionally. So a sustainable business for both what customers and readers want, but also for you. Which brings me onto an article on author burnout on the self publishing advice blog. It says author burnout leaves writers unable to write, overwhelmed by deadlines and questioning whether they can keep going. The demands of writing, publishing and marketing, often managed alone, push creative professionals beyond their limits rather than a gradual build up. Burnout often comes after a major stressor that drains the last reserves of energy. Many authors don't see it coming until they're already struggling to function. The key is prevention and balance, treating publishing like a long term career rather than an all consuming pursuit. For those already experiencing burnout, recovery requires rest, support and a shift in mindset. Becca Syme, an author coach specialising in sustainability and burnout prevention, compares burnout to an overdrawn energy bank account. Writers, she explains, spend energy pennies on everything they do and when stress, mental health struggles or external pressures increase, increase the cost. Even simple tasks feel overwhelming. We're writing checks our energy bank can't cash, syme said. There are lots of other tips from writers in the article. I particularly liked Tracy Cooper Posey, who says when life derails your writing, whether due to illness, loss or other crises, the first step to recovery is removing pressure, she wrote. Instead of forcing herself back to a strict schedule. Tracy had a cancer diagnosis. She had surgery and chemo. She advised writers to. To let go of deadlines and adjust expectations. Do whatever you can to get rid of deadlines, she wrote, even if that means restructuring commitments and explaining delays to readers. So I wanted to highlight this today as I have just felt the edge of burnout looming. I can see it looming in my future unless I do something now. And in fact, Marissa covers this in today's interview as well. I know this feeling well enough to take a step back and sort things out so as not to go there. Basically, I'm not in burnout, but I can see it over the horizon unless I do something now. The reason is. And this is. These are wonderful reasons, right? So I have. In the last few weeks, I have worked harder than I have in a very long time. My brain is just. I'm on fire. I'm loving it. It's so much fun and I'm learning so much. And I'm just trying to take advantage of this interest in the potential adapt of Day of the Vikings. So basically, this all kind of really kicked off in like, the first week of January, I guess. And I did this outline of the extended book because it is a novella, so it couldn't be a movie just as it is. It needs. It needed expanding, so I expanded it. And then I've been doing meetings and taking feedback, and I'm halfway, more than halfway through adapting it to the screenplay. Had great feedback on the pages so far. I'm off to Berlin tomorrow and also going to Cannes in May, which I did not have in my plans. I didn't have any of this in my plans. If you go Back to my January 1st goals for the year, there was nothing about this. But as I said, I'm loving it. And what I am doing is leaning into it because I have had the intention for several years now to do more as JF Pen. I've also had the intention and the big goal. I've always had a goal to have my books in film. So, yes. But of course, all of this means that all the things I had planned are a little bit squeezed. Death Valley Edits coming back next week, the Kickstarter coming up, relaunch of my books and travel podcast, plus my birthday trip to Iceland, Dublin for speaking at a writer's retreat, London Screenwriters Festival, and yeah, basically all of that before mid May. And I was like, yes, I think I need to do something now. I do know Burnout. I thought I would just tell you my worst Occasion back in the year 2000, I was working a consulting job in the 90s. And those of you who who are old enough will remember the Y2K bug, the millennium bug. And I used to do software implementations and so I worked on millennium bug projects in Europe. And I was also in my 20s. I was partying like it was 1999. And in fact it was 1999. During that time, I was drinking way, way too much. Definitely binge drinking. I was using caffeine tablets to keep myself awake in the day. I was burned out and. But I had an extreme reaction, which was I quit my job, I went to Australia, and I essentially went to the Western Australian desert for months. I learned to scuba dive and essentially chucked it all in and started another life on the other side of the world, which is an extreme reaction to burnout. And it worked. I mean, it really did reset me. But I don't want that to happen again. I'm very happy with my life. I love my life. Very happy. So. Oh, and if you want to hear about my experiences in Australia, then on the books and travel podcast, I have a solo episode called Outback Days and City Nights in the Lucky country. And that is at booksandtravel page Australia. I'll put a link in the notes. Okay, so back to what I've realized. I cannot keep my original planned schedule, which is only driven by me anyway. Like, I don't have. I'm not under contract with anyone, so why do I need to do this all at the same time? So I am replanning the things I have control over. I'm moving the Kickstarter for Death Valley to the end of April, finishing before Cannes in mid May with fulfillment in June. I'll also launch books and travel at that same time. So end of April rather than mid March. And that just gives me a lot more time for everything. And yeah, I feel I can take a deep breath and I can. Because who knows what's going to happen after Berlin. Well, I, I know what's going to happen because I need to finish this screenplay because there are people who are. Who now want to read it, which is a great place to be. So, yes, I wanted to just say to you, if you feel the edges of burnout, if you can see it coming, if you've taken on too much personally or work wise, or both, it might be your writer life, it might be your job, family things, just, just take a break. Just stop. So what I did, like a couple of days ago, I stopped, I looked at the Timing of everything. So I, I print out these one page years from, well, actually 2, 2A, 4 pages for the whole year and, and I have to keep reprinting them out to reschedule everything. I use Calendarpedia. It's really good. It's got all kinds of sizes. So I printed it out and I just went, okay, how can I move this around? And yeah, so it really just took the pressure off. So can you rearrange things? Can you reschedule to give yourself some breathing room? Why do the things that you think need to be done need to be done? Like do they need to be done right now? Are they urgent and important? What really matters? So that is my question for you today in personal news. I guess I've covered a lot of this already but I am recording this early as I'm off to the Berlin film market and I will actually be on my way home as this goes out and I will obviously give you a few comments next week. I'm going with an open mind really to learn about the business of the film industry. I do have some meetings but I will be going to some of the AI sessions. There's a lot of innovation stuff going on to make it cheaper to make blockbustery films and many of my books are pretty blockbustery. So I'm going to see what's going on and I think importantly, I'm holding two things in my mind at the same time. I am holding an intention that this project goes forward, that I can see my, my, my book on screen and it will all go incredibly well. We'll get funding, it will just be amazing and everything will work. And simultaneously, on the other hand, I have no expectations at all and the knowledge that most things never get made and even those that do take years and often those that do don't necessarily match your original intention. But all of those things, it doesn't matter. I'm just going to go with an open mind and learn new things and I will share some thoughts next week. So thanks for your emails and comments and photos. This week Anthony sent some pictures from his family's, his family's world travels. He's listened to the show all over the world and sent some wonderful photos. I particularly like the one of the family in Fez Medina in Morocco. Claire said, just listen to the Aristotle episode. Very good. I've also been having a good think about Priestley's 7114 rule. Good stuff. Yes. And I talked about that last week. Daniel Priestley, a fantastic interview there on the Diary of a CEO. So yes, thank you Claire. Please leave a comment on the podcast show notes@the creativepenn.com or on the YouTube channel. Message me on x hecreative Pen or email me. Send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation so this episode is sponsored by Draft2Digital. Are you an indie author in need of an easy and efficient print on demand service backed by a world class customer support team? Look no further than D2D print from draft to digital. It's ideal for authors who've already published ebooks but haven't yet experimented with print. With D2D print, you can convert an ebook to a Print on Demand file with just a few clicks and turn an ebook cover into a full wrap around print cover in seconds. Choose from dozens of beautiful interior layouts for a professional look and choose from a variety of industry standard trim sizes and formatting options. Distribute your Print on Demand files worldwide. You can even use Draft2Digital's free ISBNs. You can order author copies within 32 countries, order print Proofs with a variety of shipping options and without proof stamped on your book. Like some services, you can also use free change tokens every 90 days to make updates to your published print books. All of this and more with no setup or recurring fees. Print on Demand is a game changer for indie authors because while brick and mortar bookstores can't physically stock every book, they can check for the pod print on demand availability of a book when a customer requests it. If you only publish digital books, you could be missing a huge opportunity to reach readers. Let's Fix that with D2D print. Just go to Draft2Digital.com to learn more. That's Draft22Digital.com to learn more. So this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] thecreativepenn thanks to the 10 new patrons who've joined this week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community, you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering topics on writing, craft and author business as well as tutorials and demos on AI tools. And my Patron only Q and A solo episodes and live office hours. This week I shared a post on how to make an AI narrated audiobook with 11 labs. And yes, I have now cloned my JF Pen narrator voice. It's very cool. I will share more about that soon as I want to license it as well. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. You get access to everything, all the backlist content and Q&As and office hours. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com TheCreativePen Right, let's get into the interview.

[Marissa Meyer]

Marissa Meyer is the New York Times best selling author of fantasy, romance and graphic novels, including the Lunar Chronicles.

[Joanna Penn]

The Happy Writer.

[Marissa Meyer]

Get more ideas, write more words, and find more joy. From first draft to publication and beyond is her latest book for authors. So welcome to the show. Marissa.

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

It's great to have you on.

[Joanna Penn]

So first up, tell us a bit.

[Marissa Meyer]

More about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Oh, goodness. I always wanted to be a writer. I am one of those. I was a huge reader growing up, loved stories, had a big imagination. And so really from the time that I was a little kid, I started making up stories and telling them to my parents, asking them to write them down into little books for me. And then as I got older, I of course started writing them myself. But at some point I realized that this is a job, this is something that people actually can get paid for. Knew that you could actually get paid to come up with stories and get your name printed on a book. And I think I realized really early on that that was for me and that's what I wanted to do with my life. So I kept writing. As a teenager, I got really into fanfiction and credit that a lot with learning how to tell a complete story, beginning, middle, end. I got my bachelor's degree in creative writing and a master's degree in publishing because I thought writing might be a difficult career to break into. I have a backup plan and thought, well, if this writing thing doesn't pan out, maybe I can be an editor. Maybe I can be a publicist or an agent or something. But the deeper I got into learning about publishing, the more it really just cemented how passionate I was about writing and how much I just really wanted to be the writer in this publishing equation. So eventually wrote him, wrote many multiple manuscripts that went nowhere, but eventually got the idea for a Cinderella retelling about a cyborg, a futuristic retelling, and that became my debut novel, Cinder.

[Joanna Penn]

Wow.

[Marissa Meyer]

Okay.

[Joanna Penn]

Really Interesting.

[Marissa Meyer]

You did publishing as a degree as well as writing. But so did you have a job before you became a full time author? Like did you work in the publishing industry or did you just go straight from uni into full time writer?

No, I did. I went from university. I got a job as an editor at a very small publishing house in Seattle. That publisher focused mostly on fine art books. So those beautiful coffee table books that you get at museum exhibits and art galleries, you know, those books, books. So it had virtually nothing to do with my ultimate career of being a fiction writer, but it taught me a lot about just the behind the scenes, what goes into creating a book, the actual production of it, the marketing of it, all of these various aspects. So I did that for five years and then I spent about a year as a freelance typesetter and proofreader at which point my first, first novel sold and I got to become a full time writer.

That's very cool. I love that you did typesetting and stuff like that. And we'll come back to the business side, but let's get into the book. So you use the words happy and.

[Joanna Penn]

Joy in the book title, but I.

[Marissa Meyer]

Feel like many writers think suffering and pain is more of a hallmark of the creative process. So if writers are not feeling the joy and the happy right now, what are some tips for getting back to.

Yeah, no, I thank you so much for asking this question. It is so funny to me that we do have this, this, this stereotype of the writer and you must be struggling in order to create art and you must be suffering some way. And if it's not painful, then, then how can you possibly call it quality? And I, this, this stereotype really bugs me and I'm really trying to dismantle it with this book. But that said, we're also not shying away from the fact that writing, it's not just fun and play all the time. There are struggles, there are challenges. No matter where you are on your journey, whether you're suffering from writer's block or burnout, whether you're in the query trenches and you're facing rejection or criticism. I mean, there's a million things, of course, that can be roadblocks in our path to being happier writers, but that is largely what this book is about and trying to refocus our attention. Not on all the things that can go wrong, not on all of the struggles that we face, but looking at the things that we really do love and enjoy about the craft of writing, the hobby, the career, because we get into it because we do have a passion. It's not the sort of job or hobby that most of us take on just for the heck of it. I mean, you start writing because you love to write. And so I really encourage writers to find what it is that appeals to them about this. Why do you love the process of taking a messy, complicated plot and fitting it together like a big jigsaw puzzle and that satisfying you feeling when everything comes together? Or do you love that you have the freedom to go to a cafe with your laptop and sip lattes all day and stare out at the people and let the world inspire you? Or maybe you love the research process and learning about things that you are so curious and interested in and just want to do deep dives into it. There's a lot of things that we can find joy and satisfaction in. So that's going to be different for every writer. And that's going to be different based on where you are both in the process of writing a particular book, but also where you are in your overall career. But I always encourage writers to go back to that. What can I find joy in today?

Yeah, I love the research and I also love saying, with a finished book, I made this. I always enjoy holding that book in my hand. And you coming from this fine art books thing you did early on, I guess you must love the really beautiful special editions and all that.

Well, oh, I love it. And the smell. I love the smell of a new book. And you don't always get it when, you know, a lot of books these days just come in like a cardboard box. But some of these special editions will come wrapped in plastic and so they still maintain that. The smell of the ink and the binding glue and, oh, I just nerd out over it.

Well, and that is important too, isn't it?

[Joanna Penn]

Because we are making.

[Marissa Meyer]

I feel like we've come round to that. Like, there was a lot of focus on digital for a while, especially for independent authors, but now it's really come round to beautiful physical products. And that, to me is a very exciting part of the process is. Is kind of finishing the whole thing with something beautiful. And that satisfaction is really part of it.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I am really big on celebrations. I think it's so important to take a moment and say, I made this thing, I accomplished this. I had a goal, I had a dream, and I kept moving. And it took months or years or decades, but I did it. And that is such a huge part of the process. And it's really easy, especially, like for me I'm about 20 books now into my career, and it can be easy to be like, oh, just another one. Set it on the shelf and keep on working on the next deadline. But I really have tried to be very conscientious about, no, let's pause, let's pop some champagne, let's take a night off. Let's get a massage. Like, what is it that's going to make me feel like, yep, I've done it again. And I'm really proud of this moment.

That's great. Well, you do have a section on the writing process in the book, and of course, every author is different. But if people haven't got to that 20 books place, tell us how you get that first draft done and I guess, any tips for actually finishing, which I know some people have an issue with.

Yeah, no, Finishing is hard, and I think it's important for people to know that everyone struggles with finishing. We talk a lot about the siren song of the next project because no matter, at some point in every book, you're going to reach that point and you're in the murky middle. It feels endless. You're confused about the plot, you're frustrated that things aren't going well, and suddenly you get a sparkly new idea for the next thing. And it's so easy to think that one's gonna be really easy and really fun, and it's not gonna have any of these other problems that I'm dealing with right now. And it's very tempting to switch over and to follow that path of least resistance. But I think it's important to know that that fantasy of the next one being so easy, probably not reality, probably you will get to relatively the same point in the process and once again be hit with, ugh, this is hard. It's work. What else can I do? For me, one of the tips that I started using fairly early in my career is when I am at the start of a project and I'm really excited and I've got lots of ideas and you can feel all the potential for it. And there's a reason that you're choosing to write this thing out of all your other ideas. Why am I focusing my time on this one? And I will write down either a list or I will write a little letter to myself detailing all of the things about this project that I cannot wait for. Maybe it's the romance that I'm really excited to write, or there's I just love the protagonist, or there's a really big twist in the plot that I Can't wait to see how readers are going to react to whatever it is. I will write down everything that I really love about this idea. And then when I'm a third of the way or halfway through the book and suddenly hating it and feeling like this is the worst thing I've ever written, and I can't believe that I chose this. What was I thinking? I'll go back and I'll read that list, and I will remind myself why I chose this one in the beginning and what do I love about it? What do I still love about it? And then I will take those ideas and I will try to incorporate them into the next scene or chapter or couple of chapters that I'm going to write. All right. I love the romance. Well, let's have a romantic scene. I think the villain is so cool. Well, let's have a scene where we really get to see how cool the villain is. You know, whatever it is, focus on that. And that will help, hopefully help you get over that. That bad period.

And so do you write out of order? If you get to that point, you're like, I'm just gonna write the climax scene, because I know that will be fun. Or do you write linearly?

It really depends on the project. I have done both, and I think both processes work. Some books are more difficult than others. The books that I'm struggling with more than I will tend to jump around and go ahead to write a scene that I'm really excited about, but not always. Some books have very complicated plots that are very interwoven. And in those cases, it can be less of a mental gymnastics challenge if you do write it linearly. So it really depends, I think, for me, momentum and forward progress and consistency. Whatever you need to do to keep moving forward and keep. Keep on top of your goals, whether it's a word count goal or a chapter goal or whatever it is, anything you can do any day to keep moving forward is going to be helpful.

And sometimes that moving forward might not be getting new words down. Right. Because you also have a section about filling the creative well. And sometimes, especially when you've written as many books as we both have, it can be like, okay, do you know what? I need some more input. So what are some ways that you fill your creative well?

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's such an important thing to note, because like you say, sometimes getting words down is not the answer, especially if you're facing some amount of creative burnout or if you're just, like, really stuck in a plot and feel like things just aren't working or maybe you've taken a wrong turn somewhere and you're not really sure how to fix it. Sometimes the best thing you can do is take a step back and do it intentionally. I think there's a distinction between saying I have writer's block and I can't possibly write anything today versus I am choosing not to write today because I recognize that I need a moment, I need some space to refill the well and kind of tap into that creative spark again. So for me, when I decide I'm going to take a day off, I mean there's a myriad of things that I might might choose to do with that time. I think getting outside, going for walks or if you can go to a park or go on a hike somewhere, if you can go swimming, like anything like that tends to for me really generate some new ideas. Spending time with my family is always good. A lot of times I will use those days off to tackle other projects. Things that have kind of been looming in the background. Maybe there's taking up more mental space than they should be. That could be things like getting your car washed or that could be like reorganizing your pantry. Just things that have been really bugging you lately. Maybe it's time to take a day and clear some of those things out because that will help clear your mental clutter as well. Or you might take a day and be like I'm gonna do some really fun research about this project or I'm gonna take a day and spend some time brainstorming or re outlining my plot. So you can also take a more hands on approach to writing. There's really no right or wrong here, but whatever you feel like you need, give it a shot and see if it helps break something loose.

Well, so you mentioned fun research there. What does that look like for you?

I. All of it. I really enjoy research. I love reading. I love doing deep dives. You know, going on Wikipedia and clicking the little further reading links at the bottom and seeing what sort of rabbit holes you go down. But I also, if I can find a way to do a hands on or more of an experiential research, that's the best. Of course we all fantasize about being able to travel. If you can go to the place where your setting is inspired by that is worth gold. Not always an option of course, for different reasons, but if you can get out and see the world and these really great sensory details is so helpful. But it could be talking to an expert on something about your story, something about your protagonist or your plot. Because they're gonna have just the best insights and they're gonna clue you into things that you never would have even known to look up to. Research. Yeah, I mean, I. I've crawled under cars to see how they work. Cause I don't know anything about cars. But I had a mechanic character, so. Okay, I better learn something about cars. I love cooking. If there's a dish that my character has to cook or bake or is served, I'll find a recipe and give it a try myself. Just little things like that to just kind of give you that hands on experience. I think it adds a lot to the authenticity as you're writing and also.

Makes it more of a fun process. And it's more fun.

Why not? We're all about trying to make it more fun.

Yeah, exactly. Well then coming to writing series because it feels like obviously we need tropes in the books. If we're writing different books in a series, we need to make sure the characters are consistent and all that. So how do you keep coming up with new ideas for series? I feel like a lot of people now are sort of okay, is it the same thing? The same thing. Like what stays the same in a series book and what changes and how do you get ideas for that?

Yeah, that's a good question. And it's gonna depend on if you're series follows one main protagonist versus if it's more like a loosely connected series with maybe different protagonists or different love interests in each book. Generally, I think it's more common that you've got this, the solo protagonist who has a complete character arc. And so when I'm thinking of the entire series as a whole and trying to step back and see kind of a big picture, I will give a lot of thought to the protagonist's arc. Where do they start? Page one, book one. And where am I hoping they're gonna end up? And within that, depending on how many books you have in your series, there's probably gonna be some reversals. There might be book one, your protagonist might end on a really high note. Book two, it might be the opposite. They may be way down at the bottom now something terrible has happened that they have to claw their way out and. Or they learn something about themselves in book one. But then book two, you flip it on that. Flip it on its head and say they thought this thing, but surprise. Actually it's a negative in some way. You know, playing around with these different moments as the character is changing, developing, learning about secrets exploring their world. Generally speaking, we tend to think of character arcs as being upward, but I think it's helpful to think of it more as a roller coaster. There should be dips, there should be lots of places where things are going wrong. So that's, that's one thing that I'm thinking about as I'm putting together a series. And then I'm also thinking about my antagonist and my conflicts. And I have often likened it to, like old video games where every level ends with a boss, but then the very end of the game has the big boss that you're really trying to defeat. So the first boss, you have barely enough skills to defeat that first boss. And maybe it takes a few tries to beat that first level, but you do it. Oh, but now you have to do the second level. And that next boss is going to be even harder. But as you go, you're getting better. You're characters are picking up new skills, new weapons, new allies. And so at the end of every book, we have a conflict, a climax, something that we have to face. And everyone is going to be a step up a little more difficult than the last one. So that we know by the time our character is finally ready to face that big conflict, the big struggle, the antagonist, villain, whatever it is you have at the end of the series that you have given them the skills that they need to actually defeat them.

There's some great advice there. So let's come into more of the business side because you do have this section on the to do list and I love this because the to do list is never ending. And for indie authors, that with publishing and as well as marketing and writing and everything. So how do authors say no and reduce that to do list in order to stop being so overwhelmed?

Oh my gosh, it is hard. And I will admit this is something that I personally have really struggled with. I'm a yes person. I like to say yes. I like to please people. I like to feel like I am doing everything within my power to make a book a success, to further my career. So I get it. I absolutely get how difficult it is to recognize when we need a little space or we need some downtime or when we need to take a step back. For me and I, I didn't come up with this. I read it and I don't know, some productivity guide, self help guide a long time ago, but it really resonated with me the idea that every time you say yes to something, you are also saying no to something. For example, if you say Yes, I will do this. This be on this panel at this book festival. Okay. Let's say you have to travel there. Let's say it's a full day. Being on the panel, probably going to be a signing, maybe there's an author dinner, another full day of travel, going back home. So we've got essentially two to three days that. Yes. And there's lots of times when. Great, I can't wait. I'm looking forward to this. I'm going to meet some readers, I'm going to network with authors. But maybe you recognize that by saying yes to that. I'm saying no to three days with my family, or I'm saying no to three days of working on my novel, or I'm saying no to a day where I could relax and spend a day reading a book and refilling my well. So none of these are the right option. None of them are the wrong option. But just recognizing that there are pros and cons and give and take, take and be really picky about what you're spending your time on and what you are making your priority at any given.

Point, it is interesting you mentioned a panel there, and I feel like conferences and conventions are one of these things that is quite difficult. Now, you and I, again, have been doing this a while, so we have a community. Like we have author friends, but there are people listening who might be introvert. They might. Might feel very uncomfortable about going to writing conferences. And they're like, should I just say no to that? Or I guess that the question is, when should you go to something? Even if you feel you want to say no, when do you have to push yourself as an author and when should you give in to those feelings? I know it's tough, but when have you done this as an early writer and then later stage.

Yeah. No, I mean, absolutely. This is one of those things where I really think people have to tap into their own, own psyche and recognize what are my limitations, what are my goals. For me, early in my career, I did it all. If I was invited to something, it was an automatic yes. But I also did not have children at the start of my career. So for me, when it really started to change as far as recognizing my time is limited, my energy is limited, I have to step back and say no to more things was when I had kids. And then it really became that balancing act of when do you focus on the writing and the career, when do you focus on family? That said, I mean, there, the publishing process, the writing process, there's ups and Downs. There are times when you are really focused on selling a book, on marketing a book promoting, and that's both. With in person events, doing book signings, doing the festivals, but also social media, sending out newsletters. There's going to be periods where you're trying to get your book noticed by readers, but that doesn't have to be all day, all the time for years and years and years. You can really focus on it for whatever, one, two, three months, kind of whatever your capacity is, and then step back, maybe take a hiatus on social media. Maybe say for these next five months I need to write a new book and I need to focus on being with my family and do some self care. So for these five months I'm saying no to all other requests or I mean, whatever it is, I'm just throwing out numbers. Of course this is going to be different for everybody. But really think about what are my limitations and, and know that you really can't do it all. And I hate saying that because I am one of those people where I feel like I can do it all, just let me try. But you really can't. You have to make choices sometimes and recognize that if you're trying to do it all for too long, then that's a recipe for burnout. And that's the last thing we want. The last thing we want is to get to a point in our career where we dread the writing or we dread the travel or we dread the book event. So whenever you start to feel like it's too much, listen to that, give yourself some space, realize that the world is not gonna fall apart if you take a little bit of time off.

Yeah, I love that. And actually I prefer this sort of campaign focus, which is what you were really saying there. It's like go hard for say three months and then take a couple of months off. And I do that. I kind of step back from social media. Some people feel like they have to do. I know the TikTok authors in particular are doing a lot of videos every single day and feel like if they stop, it's all gonna end. That does.

[Joanna Penn]

See, and.

[Marissa Meyer]

But the race never stops, does it? It never stops unless you stop.

No, it's true. And there's always gonna be the next goal post. There's always gonna be that next thing that you're thinking, oh, if I just get this many followers then I can slow down. But then you get that many followers and you think, oh, but I've got a book coming out in two months, so I'll have that I'll keep going until then and then I'll slow down. Oh, but now I've got this other thing. I mean, there's always, it's always going to push back. It's always going to be something else. So, yeah, it's hard, it's hard to recognize when you do need some personal space, but it's also really important, not just for our mental health and well being, but for our creativity too.

Yeah. Okay. So another thing that some people are not that happy or joyful about is pitching. Publishers and agents, like mostly people, are quite stressed about that. Now you work with traditional publishers. I'm primarily an independent author. There are pros and cons. But tell us a bit more about your experience with traditional publishing and any tips for people who want to, I guess, position themselves in a world of publishing flux as ever.

Yeah. Oh, gosh, no, it's a. It is definitely one of the most stressful periods in a career is the pitching to the agents, the querying trenches, the submission trenches. It can do some damage on your confidence, on your everything. So it's a really difficult period. But if your goal is to be traditionally published as opposed to independently published, and as you say, great options, there's so many great directions that we have available to us today. But if you really think you want to be traditionally published, of course, number one, just make sure you've written the best book that you can and get some feedback, have some critique partners go over it, edit and polish it to within an inch of its life. And then when you feel like, okay, I've done the best I can do, write your query letter again, get feedback there. Because query letters are particularly tricky and there is a science and an art to them. Do your research, but then send it off. And number one, celebrate, because that's so huge, it's such a huge accomplishment to get to the point where you're querying. So regardless of whether you get 10 agents interested and you know, it goes to auction at publishers or if no one bites, like, regardless, you have written a complete book and submitted it and that's so awesome. So like take a moment to congratulate yourselves and go out for pizza or whatever, whatever you do to celebrate and then start writing the next thing. And the worst thing that we can do is be, you know, have this book sent out and then just spend all day, every day worried about it and stressing about it and having that anxiety building up and checking our email 100 times a day, which you're probably gonna do anyway. But, but if you can try to refocus your energy on something new. What is the next project you can be excited about, and dive into it, body and soul and spirit, and try to immerse yourself in a new story. And this is for a number of reasons. One, because it's gonna be a great distraction. But two, when and if your book on submission gets picked up, your agent is gonna ask you what else you got. So it's great to have something else that you can talk about.

And then what I do like in your book, I mean, I like lots of things, but you do also talk about what might happen if you break up with an agent or lose an agent or an editor or a publicist or. And I. I like that you covered this, because so many people think, oh, if I get an agent or a publisher, that's it forever. And my whole life is amazing, and I'm rich and famous, and everything will workout. So why might some of these things happen over a career? And what's the kind of attitude you need to survive at all?

Yeah. No. And this was one of the big surprises for me as I started to expand my group, my network of writers, how common it is to break up with an agent or to switch publishers, publishing houses, to switch editors. It happens all the time. And this was shocking to me because I very much felt like, no, when you've got an agent and a publisher, you are set forever. That is your career. Those are your people. And so I was really surprised that that is not the case. And there's a lot of reasons. Oh, there's so many reasons why one of these relationships may not work out. I've had friends whose agents have retired, whose editors have moved to different publishers. So it might be something rather innocuous, that life just happens. Or it could be a matter of just not being the right fit for each other. Maybe your agent only represents kid lit and you want to move into adult or you really want to start writing romance, but they don't represent romance. It could be a matter of my agents not communicating with me, or I feel like. Like they're no longer focused on me and my career. I feel like I'm not getting the attention that I really need and want out of an agent. Again, there's so many, so many reasons. But it does happen, and it's not the end of the world. It's just a little blip, another blip in your journey. And by and large, the friends I have who have left an agent or whose agent has left their career, whatever, then when they Find someone new. More often than not, they end up feeling like, you know what? This was the right thing. I really took my time. I found someone new who is a great fit for me, who is excited about my career and my upcoming projects and who is really working it and making things happen and making book deals happen. So I know it's really hard in that moment because you can feel like, I worked so hard to get this agent. Why would I ever leave them and go back to querying, but really try to take a big picture look and think, well, I might be going through a bad spot now, but what is the potential payoff in the end? What do I stand to succeed and to gain in doing this? Yeah. So it's a tough decision. It's not a fun part of the career, but it is a reality for a lot of us.

Yeah. And if you want a long term career, you're the one who is in charge. So you just make some more choices and carry on.

Right.

We don't let that end our careers.

Absolutely. No. And you're always going to be your best advocate. And we think of our agents as our advocates. We think of our editors as our advocates, and they absolutely are. But ultimately, no one is paying as much attention to your career as you are. So we really have to speak up for ourselves first and foremost, and then.

We'Re almost out of time. But I have to ask you about book marketing, because it is a part of every author's life and again, something where happiness and joy might not be such a big part. So how can we, how can we bring, how can we make marketing, like, more fun? And what do you enjoy most about book marketing?

Oh, my gosh. If you figure it out, you let me know.

Well, I like podcasting, so there you go. Yes.

No, I. I also really enjoyed podcasting, although I did just retire my podcast because again, too many things, too many spinning plates, and you have to make some tough choices sometimes for me, you know, find the things that you do enjoy. I learned early on I don't like Facebook and I don't like Twitter. X. It was difficult pulling back from those because I had a fair amount of followers. But when I did, it was like, oh, that was clearly the right decision. I wish I'd done that a long time ago. And then it allows me to focus my energy and my attention on Instagram, which is the platform that I just naturally gravitate toward best. I just enjoy it the most. Most. So pick and choose the things that you do get some enjoyment out of. And Then set boundaries around it. You know, we were talking about the Tiktokers who feel like they have to make multiple videos every day, figure out what. Again, back to limitations. What is your capacity? And have a plan in place and say, okay, I'm gonna post three times a week or five times a week, or maybe I'm gonna do fan art Fridays and I'm gonna do new book Tuesdays or whatever it is. And then maybe I'll have like one fun family post or one fun, like, also, this is a quirky thing about me post every week. And so you can kind of have a plan and break it down so that you're not every morning looking at your phone thinking, oh, I have to post on Instagram again or I have to do a TikTok video. Now what am I going to talk about? I also think it's helpful to maybe once a month or maybe once at the start of like a big promo season, spend some time doing your big brainstorming and kind of like, batch. I like batching things, the things on my to do list. So I'll spend a day brainstorming. I want to do these posts, and then I'll spend a few hours taking the necessary photos and trying to put together the captions or trying to put together the graphics or whatever. And then that's done. And I don't have to worry about that for a couple of weeks, maybe a month if you're really productive. And so it's a really nice, efficient way to kind of tackle that and then be able to move back to writing, which is for most of us, the thing that we would rather be doing.

Absolutely. Now, the book is the Happy Writer. So where can people find you and all your books online?

Thank you so much. I can be found on Instagram, Arissa Meyer author or on my [e-mail] and books are available pretty much wherever you like to get your books.

Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Marissa. That was great.

My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

[Joanna Penn]

So I hope you found this episode interesting and that Marissa inspired you to find more joy in your writing process and your author business. And that if you're feeling overwhelmed, you consider reorganizing things. Things saying no more and focusing on what really matters. I'd love to know what you think. Please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on the YouTube channel, comment on X at the Creative Pen or email me joannathecreativepenn.com and send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Next week I'm talking about Kickstarter for authors with Orianna Leckert, who is the director of publishing and comics outreach at Kickstarter, so she knows what she's talking about. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] blueprint. If you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X at the Creative Pen, or on Instagram and Facebook @jfpenauthor. Happy writing and I'll see you next time.