Why Structure Matters More Than You Think. Writing Memoir With Wendy Dale

Summary

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The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers

Episode: Why Structure Matters More Than You Think. Writing Memoir With Wendy Dale
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Wendy Dale – memoir author, screenwriter & teacher
Date: November 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Joanna Penn interviews memoirist and teacher Wendy Dale about the critical importance of structure in memoir writing. Contrary to the common belief that memoirs simply recount one’s life events, Wendy argues for a more artistic, intentionally structured approach that elevates memoir to an art form. Together, they deconstruct common misconceptions, dive into the mechanics of memoir structure, explore ethical questions around truth and memory, and offer practical advice for aspiring writers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Wendy’s Journey to Writing and Memoir

• (14:26) Wendy dreamed of being a writer from an early age, despite her mother's discouragement, moved to LA for acting, but pivoted to writing at UCLA:

  “Was studying acting at UCLA and decided I was really going to be a writer. So that was when I changed and really felt like I'd found my calling.”

• (16:03) Tried writing a novel at 19, found it difficult, and switched to memoir as it felt easier to “write about my life.” Discovered this too was a misconception.

What Makes a Memoir Different?

Memoir is NOT Autobiography

• (18:02) Many assume memoir is just a timeline (“this happened, then this happened,” etc.), but true memoir is about selecting and connecting moments/events to serve an artistic narrative.
• Quote (20:21), Wendy:

  "You are not writing a chronicle of what you've lived through. You are taking true stories from your life and turning them into art."

Why Structure Is Essential

Learning the Hard Way

• (19:14) Wendy ignored structure until an agent bluntly told her:

  "You're a really good prose writer...but you know nothing about structure.”

• Structure is not just the broad “three acts or dual timeline” consideration, but operates at every level—even between sentences and scenes.

The “Memoir Engineering System”

• (21:37) Wendy explains there are two central components:

  • Scenes: Where something must happen (the building blocks of plot).
  • Transitions: Where you show how one scene connects to the next, often through a central idea, theme, or reflection.

• (24:55) Quote, Wendy:

  “Plot can be summed up in two words, and it's connected events.”

• Without connections, memoir becomes a dull list of happenings; with it, you transform experience into narrative.

Practical Example

• (25:53) Even if real events—like visiting different locations in Paris—have no intrinsic connection, plot emerges when you link them (e.g., all moments tied to a search for identity).

The Personal and Artistic Depth of Memoir

• (28:34) Memoir resembles literary fiction more than commercial fiction:

  “It's so dependent on the prose, so dependent on the insight...affecting your reader emotionally with your words.”

• (30:24) Outlining scenes with the underlying idea/theme before writing helps you write deeper, more creative prose and relieves writer’s block.

Character Arc and Theme

• (32:57) Wendy suggests:
  • Internal journey/theme (character arc) often reveals itself through writing, rooted in fundamental life questions (belonging, identity, etc.).
  • The big challenge is filtering and connecting actual life events (plot); the emotional arc comes naturally.

Memoir: Truth, Memory & Ethics

The Line Between Fact and Art

• (35:30) Most reputable memoirists take minor liberties, such as rearranging chronology or reconstructing dialogue from memory—disclosed with a disclaimer.

• Fabricating major events is unacceptable; this is what leads to public scandals (referencing James Frey and others).

• (38:48, Wendy):

  “You do the best you can. People who are getting in trouble...are making up big things. Making up illnesses or criminal records they didn’t have.”

Writing About Others: Family and Perspective

• (40:19–43:35)
  • Strong subjective POV is essential; readers crave your unique voice.
  • Consider real-world consequences for loved ones—Wendy offers a candid account of balancing honesty with care for her parents’ feelings.
  • Sometimes, relationships determine what details stay or are omitted.

Memoir as Therapy vs. Memoir as Art

• (44:23–47:10) Therapy vs. Publication:
  • It’s valid—and often necessary—to write through trauma and anger, but if your goal is publication, the tone must grant readers insight and distance.
  • Referencing Tobias Wolff, Wendy says:

    “You should write about what has hurt you the most, but only after it's quit hurting you.”

Defining Success in Memoir

• (48:37–50:24)
  • Financial success requires writing a great book, marketing/publicity, and often, luck.
  • Memoir is “evergreen”—it holds up over time and can be revisited, unlike rapidly changing non-fiction genres.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On what makes a memoir:

  “You are taking true stories from your life and turning them into art...” — Wendy Dale (20:21)

• On structure as the heart of memoir:

  “Plot can be summed up in two words: connected events.” — Wendy Dale (24:55)

• On the dangers of writing memoir as therapy:

  “...write about what has hurt you the most, but only after it's quit hurting you.” — Wendy Dale, paraphrasing Tobias Wolff (46:55)

• On family & truth:

  "I always write my truth. Now, once I've finished writing my truth...I go through my memoir and I say, well, whose opinion do I really care about?" — Wendy Dale (41:30)

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Useful Timestamps

• 14:26 – Wendy’s background and path to writing
• 18:02 – The misconception about memoir as simple chronology
• 19:45 – The agent’s critique and why structure matters
• 21:37 – Global vs. granular structure; the Memoir Engineering System
• 24:55–27:44 – “Connected events” and concrete examples
• 30:24–32:15 – On outlining and making the creative process easier
• 35:30–38:48 – Truth, fabrication, and ethical lines for memoirists
• 40:19–43:35 – Writing about family, handling different perspectives
• 44:23–47:10 – Therapy, trauma, and readiness for public memoir
• 48:37–50:24 – Memoir’s commercial potential and “evergreen” nature

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Resources and Where to Find Wendy

• Wendy’s site & teachings: geniusmemoirwriting.com
• YouTube: Search for “Wendy Dale”
• Memoir: Avoiding Prison and Other Noble Vacation Goals

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Final Thought

Through candid stories and practical frameworks, Wendy Dale and Joanna Penn make clear that memoir writing isn’t about chronicling life—it’s about transforming lived experience into cohesive, meaningful art for others to enjoy and relate to.

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For more writing advice and back episodes, visit thecreativepenn.com/podcast

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Creative Penn Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show Hello Creatives, I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 836 of the podcast and it is Sunday the 9th of November 2025 as I record this and I am just back from Las Vegas Author Nation and playing catch up. In today's show I'm talking to Wendy Dale about writing memoir and Wendy has a very different approach to me. So it's always good to talk to someone doing things another way. We discuss why memoir is about connected events and not chronological storytelling, why structure matters, character arcs, truth and memory, and lots more. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing and AI Things. Well, I'm just going to do a short intro this week since I need time to process all my notes and thoughts from Author Nation and all the news from the last week or so. So next week I'm going to do solo show with a lot more of my thoughts. But for now, I had to share the big news this week, which is Amazon introduces Kindle Translate, an AI powered translation service for authors to reach global readers. And this is from a press Release on about Amazon.com, links in the show notes. The service translates between English and Spanish and from German to English. Expanding opportunities for KDP Authors Amazon is introducing Kindle Translate in Beta, an AI powered translation service that makes it easier for KDP authors to share their ebooks with readers worldwide in multiple languages. So when they say in beta, what it means is it's not available to everyone as yet and they're kind of just still doing the testing with a select number of authors. It continues. With less than 5% of titles on Amazon available in more than one language, Kindle Translate creates opportunities for authors to reach new audiences and earn more. Authors can manage and access their translations on the KDP portal, including selecting languages, setting list prices, and publishing within a few days. Authors can publish fully formatted translations of their books. So just sort of pulling out of this, what I can imagine in my head is a sort of a button on an ebook. A bit like if you you're already publishing on KDP and you see the Amazon virtual voice where you can create an AI audiobook, I assume there will be some kind of button that's going to say create translation of this book. And it says a few days. So I imagine it will go into their translation processing machine and then it will come out the other end as a new book. It will have a new asin, which is the Amazon alphanumeric code that all books have, all ebooks have. And I bet you that they will also at some point enable that for the virtual voice as well, because why not just have the audiobook too? So also they go on with all translations are automatically evaluated for accuracy before publication, and authors can choose whether to preview or automatically publish completed translations. I imagine as part of the process it will go into whatever their process is and it will come out the other end after being evaluated. Obviously, Amazon want to get loads of good reviews on these books. They want to see how this works. This is pretty incredible. In my mind, this is incredible because if you think of how many individual stores already exist for for Amazon and how many languages they cover, this could be absolutely huge. I also think this is going to impact those services that are currently doing paid for translation, because this is free. So this says this launch builds on Amazon KDP's ongoing commitment to supporting independent authors in reaching global audiences and increasing their earning potential. Kindle Translate provides free translation services for independent authors. Ebooks translated using Kindle Translate will be available for purchase and download on the Amazon Store. Readers will see clear labels for Kindle Translate titles along with samples to preview the translation. Additionally, translations are eligible to be enrolled in KDP select and included in Kindle Unlimited. Readers can look forward to newly translated titles as more languages are introduced. Yes, more languages are coming, giving them the opportunity to discover an expanding catalog of books. So yeah, this is seriously big. I would predict that 2026 is the year of AI translation going mainstream. We've seen the beginnings of it this year, but 2025 was really the year that AI audiobook narration really hit its stride. And that has just become much more normal. Now. 2026 it will be AI translation. So these features normally launch with a few bigger sellers in KU in the usa, often romance. So I figure that is where we're going to see this first. There are a couple of authors quoted in the press release, so have a look at that if you have access to Kindle Translate, like go log on to your KDP dashboard in America, because I doubt if the rest of us will get it for a while. But I am very interested in how fast they roll this out and how fast indies will get into this and also what the reaction of readers will be now I certainly, if I get access to this, I will certainly do it. I'll probably start with my mum's books as Penny Appleton, which are sweet romance, sweet and clean, contemporary romance, and some with older protagonists. And we'll probably start there. And certainly I just think that this is going to be huge. So yeah, let me know what you think. I mean this will get listeners and readers used to AI content Much, much f interesting times in personal news. As I mentioned, I'm back from Author Nation. It was intense in so many ways. In career ways, in Vegas ways, in jet lag ways. I really hate the jet lag with the eight hours. It just means that by the time I've been there a week, I almost am over the jet lag that way. And now I'm back and I'm in the jet lag the other way. So I have lots to think about and talk about. So I thought I would do that. Next week I'm going to do a solo show. I just haven't had time to process things since I got back. I also visited Antelope Canyon before the conference. If you check my Instagram and Facebook fpenauthor, you can see how awesome it was. And many people are like, oh, I don't know Antelope Canyon. And I'm like, if you see the photos, I think you will recognize them because it's very famous, the Lower Canyon. But you might not know its name. Gorgeous. Gorgeous place. And yes, I have lots to share, but I will do that next week. You're going to have to wait a week for all my thoughts. I'm sure if you're following other blogs and Facebook groups and social media, you'll see lots of thoughts from other authors. I will talk about it more next week. Okay, so almost last call for the Writing Story Bundle. If you'd like to level up your writing skills, check out the Writing story bundle at storybundle.com writing it includes books on creating character arcs, world building, tropes, collaboration, co writing, pacing, business essentials, professionalism, long term success, podcast productivity, and my second edition of how to Write Nonfiction. It is a wonderful ebook bundle with super useful books. Get it for a special price for a limited [e-mail] writing so thanks for your emails and comments and photos this week. There are so many. So again, I'm going to split it into next week as well. Lots of comments on Don's episode and also Becca's. And lots of photos. Diana sent me several photos this morning. My writing room shortly after 6am on a gray day with a big window and a desk. Also Wellington where I live, I look down Cuba street in the CBD and that I presume is Wellington in New Zealand. And also a photo from the carpety coast from the Northerner train. So thank you for that Diana listening to me all over the shop. And also Lynn says I've attached a video of Kabul from my balcony. I'm currently reading the Finest Hotel in Kabul by Lisa Doucet, which is apt as I've spent a few nights in the Intercontinental, the hotel of the title recently. Basically all your podcasts this month have been listened to in Pakistan, Afghanistan and London. Very cool Lyn. Sounds like you're about the place. Also, Katie said on Don's interview about Creating while caring Katie says, I just want to say a huge thank you for your interview with Don. Don is incredible and as a fellow parent of a disabled child who will need lifelong care, this episode was hugely cathartic, especially hearing about him planning for Han future. It feels as if parents of disabled children we are often on the sidelines and our difficulties skimmed over by others, no doubt because they are difficult for people to talk about or imagine. But you recognize the humanity of Don and his family and it was beautiful. One of the most powerful episodes I've ever heard. Thank you so much Katie. And I've been sharing a lot of the comments with Don and I know it means a lot to him to hear from many of you about how his interview touched you and his book is Creating While Caring. Also on Becca's interview about Loki is in Charge on YouTube YelenaFigueroa says, Two of my favourite people in the same podcast. I loved it. Thank you both. You always bring hope back into a writer's life. We definitely do aim to do that. Both Becca and I want to be hopeful, positive voices. Okay so please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes atthecreative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. You can email me, send me pictures of where you're listening or your favorite cemetery or churchyard. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation. So this episode is sponsored by Draft2Digital and it was great to connect with the team at Author Nation. And this is a tip actually if you go to any author conference make sure to visit the vendor store. Obviously Draft 2 digital but any other vendors too. The drafter digital guys are so friendly and they will help you with any questions you have. It is a great way to connect and get more personal help and I use drafted Digital for ebook distribution to multiple stores and libraries. And remember, even if you're in KU for ebooks, you can now distribute to libraries for borrowing. Even if you can't sell ebooks on other stores. And they can help you with that too. But back to the ad. Are you an indie author in need of an easy and efficient print on demand service backed by a world class customer support team? Look no further than D2D print from Draft 2 Digital. It's ideal for authors who have ebooks but haven't yet done print. You can convert your ebook to print on demand with just a few clicks. Turn your ebook cover into a full wraparound print cover in seconds. That is super useful. Choose from dozens of interior layouts, choose from industry standard trim sizes, distribute worldwide. Use Draft Edition Digital's free ISBNs if you want, order author copies within 32 countries and use free change tokens every 90 days for updates. All this and more with no setup or recurring fees. And I'll also add people often ask me why would I go with drafted digital print? And one of my big answers also is the help. So they have a great customer service team so you can always talk to them about your own needs. If you only publish digital books, you could be missing a huge opportunity to reach more readers. Let's fix that with D2D print. So this kind of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] TheCreativePen thanks to the 25 new patrons who've joined in the last two weeks. A bumper batch from Author Nation after my AI talk went down well. So thanks to everyone, everyone who's also been supporting for months and years. If you join the community you get access to all my backlist videos and audio on writing, craft, author business tutorials on AI and more. And of course remember you don't have to subscribe forever. You can pop in, check out the stuff and then pop out again. So over the last weeks we had our live Patron meetup in Vegas. I've also shared a long post on audio and narration and some of the tools that I now use that are different from my book. Audio for authors and how that has changed for me and also updates on AI translation. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com TheCreativePen Right, let's get into the interview. Wendy Dale is a memoir author and teacher as well as a screenwriter. And today we're talking about the memoir engineering system. Make your first draft your final draft. So welcome to the show, Wendy.

[B]

Thank you so much for inviting me. Joanna.

[A]

Oh, no, it's exciting to talk about this topic. But first up, tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

[B]

I think I grew up loving books and I always wanted to be a writer when I was a little girl and I really dreamed of being a writer, and my mother said, no, it's just way too hard. So few people have success. Why don't you become an actress? Right. So I moved to Los Angeles when I was 17 to become an actress and really did not like the film industry at all from an acting perspective. Was studying acting at UCLA and decided I was really going to be a writer. So that was when I changed and really felt like I'd found my calling. That was always what I'd wanted to do. So I tried writing a novel at 19. That didn't go so well. But when I was 23, I started working on a memoir and from there have worked in writing in all different aspects. But really my first love will always be books. Now, having made that decision, I haven't always done the kind of writing that I would always want to do. Right. So sometimes I've done ad copywriting, which actually I did rather love. I've done screenwriting. I've done all kinds of writing. Not always my first choice, the type of writing I was doing for the most part. I have made it work, though. So being flexible, you know, you can't always get exactly what you want. I didn't say I'm going to only earn my living publishing books. I don't know if that would have been possible. But I have for the most part, managed to earn my living as a writer.

[A]

So then how did you get into memoir specifically?

[B]

So I started trying to write this novel at 19, and it was very difficult and I didn't know what I was doing. And I thought, well, it would be so much easier to write about my life. Are you laughing, Joanna? Right. So another misguided idea. I thought, oh, memoir would be easy because you don't even have to come up with the plot. You just write down what you lived through. Lots of misconceptions and everything I just said but that was how I started writing a memoir. Around this time, my parents also made this decision that they were going to retire in their 40s and take their life savings and move to a developing country. And they sold everything. I mean, they really just, like, fled the United States and moved to Honduras with the idea of retiring early. And so I went to visit them, and I was like, well, well, this could be something to write about. So that's actually wound up being the first chapter of my memoir.

[A]

And you were telling me before, you live in Peru, right?

[B]

I do, yes. I've lived in Peru for almost six years now.

[A]

Oh, right. And so why do that? I mean, a lot of people want to travel, and what is it that brought you there?

[B]

So I lived in Peru when I was a child. And really, it sounds kind of strange, but I think deep down I've always had this identity of feeling Peruvian. Right. You look at me and I look. You know, Peruvians don't think I am Peruvian, but it really. My first memories as a child were growing up in Peru. And coming back here has been really incredible. So I feel very much at home. I'm split. I've actually lived, by this point, almost half my life in Latin America. Not just Peru, Bolivia, other Latin American countries. But, yes, I've half my life in the United States, the other half in Latin America. So I really do feel at home here, partly because my first memories were of growing up in Peru.

[A]

Well, I think this. This kind of might segue into why writing memoir is not just this is what happened. Because I. I feel like, as you mentioned, like one of the misconceptions is almost that it's just an autobiography. Like, this happened, this happened, this happened. But as you said there, for example, the fact that you spent half your life in Latin America, half usa is immediately like a potential hook into stories about your life that aren't necessarily in order. So talk a bit about that issue of it's not just this happened, this happened and how to think about memoir.

[B]

Oh, and I'm going to take a deep sigh here because I just think back to writing this memoir and all of the misconceptions I had. Now. I love prose. I just love prose. I love putting words on the page. I think words are so beautiful, sometimes I just, like, want to eat them. I'm a prose writer. I don't like structure. I don't like plot, and I didn't even realize the importance of plot until I had. I thought I had finished this memoir. So first chapter is. First chapter starts In Honduras. The last chapter ends in Bolivia, because by this point, my parents had moved to Bolivia. And all the chapters in between are all these different countries that I went to on my own. But I'd finished the book, or so I thought, and I started sending it out to agents and really wasn't getting the response I had hoped for. And finally got an agent who said. She called me up, and that was really good news. And she said, you're a really good prose writer. And I was like, yes, I love writing prose. And she says, but you know nothing about structure. And I honestly. Are you laughing?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, right. And I remember the words that went through my head. I was like, what is this structure thing she's talking about? I'd never heard the word. So obviously I knew nothing about structure. And that was kind of the beginning of what I guess would become my life's work is really comprehending memoir structure. So that was a long time ago. That was the beginning of the process. But I didn't even understand that plot plays such a huge role in memoir. I just thought you wrote about your life, and I think that is what a lot of people don't understand. Right. It's not just. It's really easy to confuse the memories of your life with thinking that it's plot, and it just isn't. So one thing I tell my clients is, you are not writing a chronicle of what you've lived through. You are taking true stories from your life and turning them into art. This is an art form for other people to enjoy. It's true. True. But you are creating art. It's very different than chronicling your life. Took me a long time to learn that.

[A]

Yeah, let's come back to this word art. But first of all, I want us to. I do want us to tackle structure because, yeah, I also learned this the hard way. When I wrote my travel memoir, Pilgrimage, I had, like, over a hundred thousand words of writing, and I just couldn't figure out how the structure of the book would work until I found. And another book that helped me figure out the structure.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like many. Like, there are lots of different types of memoir structures. And mine, I found a sort of model. And then I was like, okay, this is how it works. So try and talk us through how we can potentially structure, even if we're someone like me, who might be just a discovery writer first, or like you, by the sound of it.

[B]

Absolutely. So I hate structure. Right. And that's why I became an expert in it. So in order to make it a lot Easier for me to understand. So I am not a planner, right. In fact, there's a line in my memoir about there are two different kinds of travelers. There are planners and there are fun people. Right. And I've never been a planner in any aspect of my life. So the fact that I would become this expert in structure is kind of ironic. Let me go back to this idea of structure. So I think when people talk about structure, their first thought is three acts, or are you doing a dual timeline? How is. What is the big picture? How is your book going to play out? When I use the word structure, I am referring to structure. Structure plays itself out in every sentence of your book. I mean, it's such a critical part of your story. So there's global structure, which is really referring to how you're going to use chronology in your book, how you're going to tell this story, and then there is structure on every page of your book. So what happened is I actually started teaching after my memoir got published. Several years later, I started teaching memoir writing. And teaching is very different than doing right. I figured I wrote my memoir by a process of trial and error. Eventually this agent did sign me and kind of helped me understand what wasn't working in the the manuscript that I'd submitted, and I spent a year rewriting it. It eventually got published. But when I started teaching memoir writing, it was different because teaching someone how to do this is very different than this trial and error of doing it yourself. And so as time went on, I would see the same mistakes over and over again. And so I started to say, well, there are these categories of mistakes, and what if I reverse engineered this and kept people from making these mistakes? So in order to not make the mistake, there must be a principle that people need to follow. So that was the beginning of the memoir engineering system. It took me 15 years to understand is that plot can be summed up in two words, and it's connected events. Now, why do I say that? Well, the problem with memoir writing is that it's very tempting to feel like the things that you did, the things that you're including in your memoir, let's say it's a travel memoir. So going arriving in Paris and then going out to eat for the first time and then walking down the Champs Elysees and then going to the Louvre. And like, so just I mentioned several things that you might have done that a person might have theoretically done in this memoir on Paris. The problem with this from a reader's perspective is that this is not plot. And the reason it's not plot is that these things are not related to one another. So by relating them, it could be with an idea. What do all of these things have in common other than their things that you did in Paris? You need something a little deeper than that. You take these disconnected events. I went to the. I walked down the Champs Elysees, I went to the Louvre, and you turn them into plot. So that really is the basis of. Everything I teach, is that connected events equal plot. A memoir writer's biggest challenge is taking all these things that they live through, whether it's a travel narrative or a different kind of narrative. It's a bunch of stuff that happened to them, and that's not plot. And how do you take a bunch of stuff that happened to you and turn it into plot? You let your, your reader know how these events are connected. So that's really the basis of what I teach. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah. Well, maybe give us a concrete example with your own memoir. Avoiding prison and other noble vacation goals, Adventures in love and danger, which obviously they are connected events. They would be vignettes, I imagine, about these different adventures. So what, what, what is the connected event? Is that more about you as the character or is it the theme?

[B]

So this is called the memoir engineering system, right? So it gets very. I really believe that there was this hidden code underlying memoir. I promise I'm not avoiding the question, Joanna. I'm going to get to it in a second. But in order to explain how this works, what I. What took me 15 years of reading over a thousand manuscripts to understand about what memoir actually is doing, how it actually works, is that there are two different components in your book. You have scenes and you have transitions, and in your scene, there are the building blocks of plot and something must happen. And in your transition, you have an idea that shows what happens in one scene is related to what happens to the next. So in my own book, I didn't know this because I wrote this as a process of trial and error. But if I were to go back to my made up example of, you know, I go out to eat on the Champs d' Elysees and then I go to the Louvre, what do those things have to do with each, with one another? Absolutely nothing. They're not related in any way. But if you start to ask yourself one question, you can ask yourself is, what was I doing in Paris? What was I searching? You know, maybe I was searching for a sense of understanding myself. I don't know. There's no one right Answer. Right. It's a fictitious example. But so if in your transitions between your scenes, maybe this is a search for identity, maybe when you're outside of your own country, you understand yourself better. So the transitions in that chapter would all be about identity, and this idea of identity would infuse itself through your chapter, and it would take these disconnected things you did, and it would turn them into a story. Does that make more sense?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I. I know what you mean, because it's. I. But I think this is where people need to get more personal. I feel like you can write a travel guide. And when I started writing my pilgrimage books, I thought I was writing travel guides. And then I realized I actually had a deeper sense of the whole thing, and I was lost and I was trying to find myself and all that, like you do at midlife and, you know, seeking faith and all of that. And I think memoir only really happens when you get a lot more personal. So as you mentioned, there sort of the ideas, something happens, but it's your personal reflection and how your own personal transformation happens through the course of the book. And so you have to write at a much deeper level than you would if it was, say, just a travel guide about Paris. Oh.

[B]

I think all memoirs is more closely related to literary fiction than commercial fiction because you're never going to have the plot twists and turns of a detective novel, for instance. And so it's really dependent on the depth of the prose. Right. Your insights. Absolutely. That is why people read memoir. So you're never going to have plot. You need some plot, but you're never going to have those twists and turns and surprises and unbelievable suspense that you would have in commercial fiction. In that way, it's more like literary fiction. And so it's so dependent on the prose, so dependent on the insight, the quality of the prose affecting your reader emotionally with your words. Absolutely. So I tell my clients, structure is kind of black or white. It's either working or it's not. So don't stress over finding the best structure for your book. Structure is there to keep your reader from being confused, to keep them from going, Wait, I have no idea why you're telling me this after. After reading this scene, I have no idea why you're telling me about this other thing, because they're not at all related. Structure is there to keep your writer, you keep your reader from being confused. What makes them actually love your memoir is the quality of your prose affecting them emotionally, Your insights, your point of view, how subjective your writing is.

[A]

So what Are some tips for people who are finding it difficult to get down to that depth. Because it is very difficult. I found writing memoir much more difficult than fiction. And I've written lots of other kind of self help non fiction and because you really do kind of have to bear your soul. So what are some of your tips for people to write? Whatever your scene is, writing it at a much deeper level.

[B]

Well, so what I suggest, even though I hate planning, is that people start with an outline, but a very specific outline that really consists of figuring out what their scenes are. Now, this outline can change along the way, but starting with an outline so that they ask themselves, okay, what is each scene about? And when I've had people do that, the process of writing becomes so much easier. Because structuring your book is a very logical process. Writing your book really is this creative process. This is the part I love. I love the creative part. I don't love the structuring part. But when faced with the choice, okay, you can spend seven years writing and rewriting and figuring this out by trial and error, or you can spend a month of your life creating this outline and then finish your memoir in a year. Somehow that investment of time starts to seem worth it. So when it comes to actually writing, if you understand, I find that any kind of writer's block, I find the reason that prompts work, I think, is that you push against limitations and that actually makes me more creative. So I found that having the structure for my book before I start writing actually makes it so much easier to write and it makes me more creative. And if I have this outline for the book and I don't feel like writing that depressing scene about that time I got in this argument with my mother, I feel like writing this fun scene over here because I'm in a funny mood today. I can do that because I have a sense of what the book is like globally. So I really do believe in outlines, even though I hate actually creating them. I think it makes it easier to write. I think it makes it actually more fun to write once you've gotten through the drudgery of creating this outline outline.

[A]

Yeah, I must say, because like I said, I'm a discovery writer. I've never ever written a book with an outline. But what my process is, I guess, and with my book Pilgrimage, I hadn't finished the character arc until I had done three pilgrimages. And I feel like perhaps your method is more suitable for people who already have an idea of their story in mind. Like they've already finished their Transformation, whatever that may be, or that period of their life that they want to write about. Whereas I think when I started writing, I still hadn't found the meaning. I guess I hadn't found what you're calling the idea in each of the scenes.

[B]

So let me. So I do take a really different approach than most memoir coaches. So what you're talking about, your character arc, I actually find the easiest part of any memoir that is. And I'll explain why in a second. Plot is difficult. Plot requires thinking and figuring out your plot. But for me, your character arc is synonymous with the theme of your book. Is it about belonging? Is it about identity? Is it about coming to terms with your childhood? I find that that actually comes out in the writing itself because that is the theme of your life. And I think that is so much a part of. Of everything you do and everything you write that it comes out in the writing itself. That, to me, is the easiest part of writing a memoir is this character arc, this internal journey. And that is one of the few things that doesn't require structure because it's in the writing itself. Now, there's a little bit of thought that goes into it, but I honestly find one of the easiest parts of writing a memoir what is actually difficult is taking a bunch of things you did in a country and connecting this day I did this, and the next day I did this, the next day I saw this place, the next day I met this person. And all of that will bore your reader to tears if you don't connect these events in some way and if you don't make them related to one another to tell a story. Otherwise you're just telling them a bunch of stuff they did and you're a stranger to them and they don't care. But if you take all of these things you did and you connect them in some way, usually with an idea.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Usually with some thematic idea. You are creating plot in that chapter and that is how to take. And that's really a challenge for a memoirist because we don't have the. The advantage of making things up as a novelist does.

[A]

Yeah, we should tackle the making things up aspect because you've used language like character arc, you've used plot, you've said it's more similar to literary fiction. So you have used it lot of fiction language. So where is the line for truth? And people might know of the salt path controversy, which is if people don't know a travel memoir where. Which is a lot of truth. But some quite core things have been challenged in the press. So there's sort of been a feeling of betrayal by people who loved that memoir. So what are some of the lines around Truth with writing memoir?

[B]

I honestly think the bar is pretty low in the sense that the people who are getting in trouble, and this is not the first time a memoirist has been in trouble for fabricating facts of their life. It kind of is shocking to me. Right. So I would say that all memoirists take some license. And so there's. There's this ethical continuum, and you have to feel comfortable with it. So I tell people, you need to put a disclaimer in your book. Most memoirists will play a little bit with the order of events. Now, when I'm saying that, what I mean is that I might have had a really funny conversation with my mother in October, and in the book, it comes in March, because that's a perfect place to put this conversation in my book. I don't think that is being unethical. And I would also put a disclaimer in the beginning of my memoir that I've sometimes changed the chronology of the book now, making up huge things that never happened. So one thing I tell people I work with is I would never make up something happening. Right. So I had this conversation with my mother. I may not remember the dialogue exactly, but it's to the best of my memory. It's my representation of that moment in time, but I would never make up something happening. And the memoirs who are getting in trouble. So this is not the first time a memoirist has been in trouble. But all the ones who've really had these public scandals have made up huge things. So I'm actually scandalized as well. So I don't think there's this gray area of memoirs who are getting in trouble. I think they're really making huge chunks of their life up. And so I don't think it's a complicated issue, to be honest with you. I think all memoirs take some license. The ones who get in trouble kind of deserve to get in trouble because they're right. I mean, these are big things they're making up. I'm thinking of James Fry. Do you remember James Fry?

[A]

Yeah. Was it tiny little pieces? I think his ones.

[B]

I think that's what it was. Yes. I mean, I think Augustine Burroughs got in trouble, too. There have been many cases, but people were making up big chunks of their life. They weren't moving things around in time.

[A]

I agree, but it is hard because, for example, if people are writing something from a long time ago, so I guess I was shocked at the end of Cheryl Strayed's Wild because suddenly it's kind of revealed at the end that she's writing it decades later. And my first thought, I. I think it was one of the first memoirs I'd kind of read. And I was like, well, how can you remember those conversations? How can you write dialogue as if it was last week? And my own memoir I wrote, actually, like I wrote while I was doing my pilgrimages over three years, I was writing journals, and I wrote the book very soon after. So. But a lot of people do write memoir from decades ago, so how do we keep that line? And also, I wanted to ask you, you mentioned your mother as well. A lot of people are putting family members or people they met or whatever into books. So how do we make sure that our memory of something is right?

[B]

Oh, that's a much harder question, Joanna. Okay, to answer your first question, how do you recount dialogue? Let's say you're writing 30 years later and you're trying to recognize, recount what someone said. You do the best you can. What I want to say is that people who are getting in trouble, famous memoirs getting in trouble, are not getting in trouble because their mother comes back and says, you know, I didn't say exactly that 20 years ago. They're getting in trouble for making up big things, making up illnesses that they didn't have, making up criminal records that they didn't have. Like, so these are big things that can be fact checked. That's what people get in trouble with. I have never heard of a memoirist getting in trouble because a family member said, well, I think the conversation was different ever. Have you? Right. So we're talking. That's a whole different level. And you do the best you can. So that is not an issue for me. I have an issue with people who make up facts. I'm doing the best I can to remember dialogue, and if I don't remember dialogue, I don't put it in my brain book. You don't need tons of dialogue in your book. What you need is great point of view, great prose in your scene to make it engaging to a reader. So when it comes to talking.

[A]

Yeah, did I. Yeah, that's true. But. But on the family thing, it's more like, well, you portrayed this situation this way, and I don't feel like it happened like that.

[B]

That is really difficult. Right. So, first of all, one of the things I teach memoir is, is that it's really important to give us a point of view. I Think. Some of my hardest clients are journalists. They've been taught to be objective. Objective. Just the facts, right? And that is not what a reader wants for memoir. We really want this point of view. We want to. It's really ironic that in being incredibly personal, you actually make your story universal. It's the only way I know to make your book universal is being so personal that I see myself in the story. So we need that point of view. And your point of view may be very different than your mother's point of view. And that's true, right? I mean, life is that way. So you do need to be faithful to your point of view. Now, having said that, you are writing about real life, people, and there are repercussions. You know, your mother may come back to you and say, I'm never speaking to you again. How dare you portray me that way? It depends on your relationship with the person. But it is something to consider. So that, to me, is a very different question. I always write my truth. Now, once I've finished writing my truth and my point of view, I go through my memoir and I say, well, whose opinion do I really care about? You know, is my mother going to be so devastated by this that I'm going to damage my relationship and is it worth it? Right? And so there were some people in my book, I'm like, oh, this person's gonna hate what I said about them. I don't care. I don't even like this person. So I left it with my mother, for instance. I said, well, Mom, I'm gonna tell you, this memoir is coming out. This was a long time ago, by the way. Like, Cheryl Strayed, right? So long time ago. And I said, well, I say a lot of things about you, but. So the way I handled this with my mother is that I said, well, mom, we really needed this conclusion at the end. And in the end, this really turns out to be this character arc about understanding my relationship with my mother even better. So in the beginning, we needed lots of conflict to get there. Totally true, but a little out of proportion so that my mother would let me get away with talking about some of the things she probably didn't want me talking about. She took this really well. And the way I handled it was I had her read the last chapter first, where she really does come across really great. Right. It turned out really well, to the point that my mother. I know my mother incredibly well, and I also knew what would work with her. So she loved the publicity. She would do book readings with me. She went on television with me. She hammed it up in book reading. She would read her lines in the book. So it actually brought us closer together. My father is very different. My father does not like publicity. I knew if I had said anything negative about my father, he wouldn't speak to me again. And so I didn't. So it wasn't that I lied, but I did take into consideration the relationship I had with my parents and the relationship. They're different people, and I knew they would take it in different ways. So that is a real life consideration that you do need to take into account.

[A]

Well, I think that's very respectful. Respectful of you for both of them. And the most healthy way to do things, for sure. But I think another thing that happens with memoir is people have very far more damaged relationships than. Than you clearly had. And I think some people want to use memoir as a form of therapy or revenge. That's another thing. Revenge, rage, anger. Yeah, And a very negative emotion. So. And absolutely, people need to write their truth in at least the first draft. But where do you think the line is between therapy and these? What could be conceived or could go very, very wrong for both the person writing and also anyone on another side?

[B]

I think a lot of people want to write their memoir for the sake of therapy. And in the end, so you can. That's really fine. I really have always wanted to be a published writer. I care about having an audience. I care about saying the truth. My truth, obviously not the truth. I care about saying my truth and creating art for an audience. And that really is a different consideration than journal writing, which is for yourself. So. So if you are writing a memoir for an audience, you are writing it in a different way. So what I would say to people full of trauma and anger. Yeah, plenty of trauma. Let me tell you. Right. Plenty of trauma in my memoir as well. Even though it's a humorous book, there's plenty of trauma in there. What I would say is that it depends on the tone you use. And let me give you an example of just talking to another human being is a stranger. And if you start to talk to that stranger and they're like, my life has been so unfair. Nobody has ever given me a chance. Do you really want to talk to that stranger? So it's a matter of tone. If that stranger says, I have gone through so much. You know, I was abused as a child. I suffered poverty and homelessness. Let me tell you what I've come away with. You kind of want to lean in, and you're like, well, Tell me about being homeless. Right. And you want to hear that story. So it's not what you've lived through. I think it's where you are in dealing with this. So if you're still processing trauma and you're at the stage where life is unfair and you know, I've given up, you probably are not ready to write a memoir for other people yet. Feel free to write, to process that trauma. But if you're writing for a public, we want to learn through what you've lived through. Living through someone else's difficulties can be really therapeutic for your reader as long as you're on the other side of them. There's a Tobias Wolf quote, and I'm going to get it wrong paraphrasing it, but I heard this on an NPR Radio interview many, many years ago. He was being interviewed. I think it might have even been for this boy's life. So that would be a long time ago. And he said, you should write about what has hurt you the most, but only after it's quit hurting you. So then you have that perspective, you have that wisdom.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, having having written journals through dark times in my life and then looking at it later. When you're going through these things, your writing is really repetitive and quite frankly, boring.

[B]

Poor me. Life is so hard. And that's okay.

[A]

It's okay in the moment. Moment, yeah. But as you say, nobody wants to read a repetitive journal over and over again. That's not a memoir. So it is difficult, isn't it, to find that line between sharing enough and then not being repetitive. And I feel like this is where you have to keep the audience in mind. It's like, okay, that was good for me as a writer. But what's good for the reader?

[B]

It is. And it really depends on your goals as a writer. It really does. Both are valid. If you are writing to heal from trauma, that is a really valid reason to write. And it works. You know, it really does work to write to heal from trauma. If you're writing for an audience, it is a different level. You might have to leave some things out of your book that really mattered to you. You're trying to take true events from your life and turn them into plot. So it is a different goal.

[A]

Well, let's just talk about that then. Definition of success is so important. And I think with every genre are books that hit big. So everyone thinks they're going to be Cheryl Strayed with Wild. And everyone did want to be like the salt path quite. Until quite recently. And you Know these. These books that become mega, mega bestsellers and have movies. And so should authors expect to make money with memoir or. Or how could success be defined?

[B]

It really depends on how badly you want to be financially successful when it comes to writing, is one answer. Let me qualify that just a little bit. So if you really care about making money, what you do need to learn is marketing and publicity. So a huge portion of your time is going to be spent getting publicity for your book. So what makes for a successful book, I think, is three things. It's writing a book, book that readers love, not every reader. Some people are going to hate your book. In fact, that's actually a good sign. Not everyone needs to love your book. Some people need to love it, some should hate it. That means you've written a book that actually says something. So you need to have written a good book. You need publicity, because if no one hears about this really good book you've written, it's not going to be financially successful. And then you need luck. So I think the Cheryl Strayed's the Wilds of the World also had a little bit of. So you can control it to a certain extent if you are willing to put in the work to do marketing and publicity on your book. I think you could count on a modest success if you're willing to work hard on it. Because the reality is, if you care about making money off of your book, the money comes from publicity and marketing. If you don't and you're writing a book and you've put it out in the world and it's beautiful and you want to see what happens and who finds it, and that is your satisfaction. That's valid, too. It just depends on what your goals are. But if you want to make money off of a book, there really is this whole publicity and marketing side of it, and that's just the reality, because there are books out there, and if no one has heard of your book, no one's gonna buy it.

[A]

And that's true for all books.

[B]

Yeah, it is. Yeah, unfortunately. And we hate that. Right, Joe? Don't you hate marketing? Oh, it's horrible.

[A]

Nobody wants to do it, but it just. It has to be done. And I think. Think what's interesting about memoir, though, which is a very good thing, is that it. It's. It's kind of timeless. So I really think that, like my memoir, Pilgrimage, and like your memoir, we can talk about them for the rest of our lives, because they are part of life at a point. And there might be. Obviously there'll be other books that we write about different parts of our life. But to me, that it's. It's far more timely. Less than. I mean, you mentioned marketing. I have a book called how to Market a Book, and it's on its third edition. It needs updating all the time because marketing changes. But memoir, it's like evergreen. I would say it's evergreen.

[B]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Though I do have to say that I wrote my memoir in my 20s. It's been 30 years. I whisper that to you. Right. So I. I think I wrote my truth then. If I were to write about the exact same experiences, I would write about them in such a different way. And not in a better way, just a different way. Right. Hindsight is 20 20.

[A]

Yeah. But I feel like there are different times of our lives. So I feel like I will write another memoir at some point, but it will be about. It won't be about pilgrimage. It'll be about something else.

[B]

What is it going to be about?

[A]

I don't know yet.

[B]

You don't know? You haven't lived it yet?

[A]

Exactly. I think it will appear when you. When it appears. Although I've got this book around Gothic cathedrals that I started out as a photo book and now it's kind of turning into half a memoir. So I don't. Because I'm a discovery writer. I don't even know what happens until these. These things arrive.

[B]

Fair enough. If you ever want help with an outline, you call me and I will help you with your outline.

[A]

Fantastic. Well, tell us, where can people find you and your books and courses online?

[B]

I think the easiest way to find me is to go to Genius memoir writing.com and you can find information about the Memoir Engineering System, which is my book on memoir structure. My own memoir is called Avoiding Prison and Other Noble Vacation Goals. Or just Google Wendy Dale. I also have a YouTube channel, so Google Wendy Dale and you'll find lots of stuff.

[A]

Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Wendy. That was great. Great.

[B]

Thank you so much, Joanna.

[A]

So I hope you found the discussion with Wendy interesting, whether you're writing memoir or just trying to bring elements of memoir into your other writing. So please leave a comment on the podcast show notes about the interview or anything I mention in the [e-mail] on the show notes or on the YouTube channel. Or email me joannathecreativepenn.com and send me pictures of where you're listening or your favorite cemetery or churchyard. Next Monday, I'm going to do a solo show to catch you up on everything and go into more lessons from Author Nation as well as give updates in the news since I just have a massive list of things to share in the meantime. Happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] blueprint. If you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X hecreative pen or on Instagram and Facebook fpenauthor. Happy writing and I'll see you next time.