Writing As A Tool For Grief And Dealing With Change With Karen Wyatt

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers Episode Title: Writing As A Tool For Grief And Dealing With Change with Karen Wyatt
Release Date: March 17, 2025
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Dr. Karen Wyatt
Description: In this heartfelt episode, Joanna Penn interviews Dr. Karen Wyatt, a retired hospice physician and bestselling author, about using writing as a means to navigate grief and significant life changes. They delve into the multifaceted nature of grief, the therapeutic benefits of writing, the challenges of publishing personal narratives, and the role of spirituality in the grieving process.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

Joanna Penn opens the episode by highlighting the focus on writing as a tool for coping with grief and dealing with life's inevitable changes. She references her own recent appearance on Karen Wyatt's podcast, End of Life University, setting the stage for an in-depth conversation about their shared experiences with grief and writing.

2. Understanding Grief Beyond Loss

Timestamp [33:18] Karen Wyatt:
"Grief can be felt in times of happiness, when good things are happening. Life is a series of losses and changes, and grief is an emotion that's always present for us."

Karen emphasizes that grief extends beyond the loss of a loved one. It encompasses any significant change or loss, even those occurring in moments of joy. Examples include a child no longer using baby language or personal milestones like menopause, highlighting that grief is intertwined with the concept of control over life's events.

3. The Therapeutic Power of Writing

Timestamp [35:50] Karen Wyatt:
"Writing gives us a place to express and ventilate our emotions, to put down what’s otherwise hidden or repressed inside of us."

Karen shares her personal journey of using writing to process grief after her father's suicide. She began with morning pages—a practice inspired by Julia Cameron's The Artist's Way—which allowed her to release pent-up emotions through stream-of-consciousness writing. Over time, her writing evolved from raw emotional outpouring to more structured forms like poems, stories, and essays, enabling her to process her grief constructively.

4. From Personal to Published Writing

Timestamp [52:16] Karen Wyatt:
"I chose to share my writing only after I had clarity and no longer wrote out of anger or blame. I focused on writing from a place of love and healing to inspire others."

Transitioning from personal journaling to publishing was a significant step for Karen. She decided to share her writings only after achieving emotional clarity, ensuring that her work was not fueled by residual anger or blame. This deliberate approach allowed her to create content that was not only therapeutic for herself but also beneficial to others experiencing similar grief.

5. Navigating Family Reactions to Published Grief Writing

Timestamp [59:20] Karen Wyatt:
"When I shared my stories with my mother, it became a healing moment for both of us, allowing us to communicate our grief in a way we hadn't before."

Karen discusses the delicate dynamics of sharing grief-related writing with family members. Initially hesitant, her mother eventually found solace in reading Karen's stories, which facilitated deeper conversations and mutual healing. Karen advises authors to ensure their writing is intended for healing and to approach the topic with sensitivity to loved ones' feelings.

6. Spirituality and Grief

Timestamp [48:08] Karen Wyatt:
"Focusing on universal spiritual concepts like love and forgiveness helped me move beyond resentment and find peace in my grief."

Spirituality plays a crucial role in Karen's approach to grief. She highlights the importance of universal spiritual principles—such as love, forgiveness, and finding meaning—in navigating the grieving process. Embracing these concepts allowed her to shift from anger to curiosity, fostering resilience and creative thinking.

7. Karen Wyatt's End of Life University Podcast

Timestamp [63:45] Karen Wyatt:
"My podcast serves as a resource for people in need, helping them understand death, dying, and grief through meaningful conversations."

Karen shares insights about her own podcast, End of Life University, which aims to demystify and destigmatize conversations around death and grief. Through interviews and discussions, she provides valuable resources and support for individuals navigating loss, emphasizing the impact of shared experiences and knowledge.

8. Listener Feedback and Community Impact

Karen recounts touching stories from listeners who have found her podcast instrumental in their own experiences with grief. For example, one listener used her podcast while supporting a dying friend, enabling him to provide meaningful comfort.

9. Balancing Writing and Professional Help

Timestamp [44:04] Karen Wyatt:
"Writing served as my therapist, allowing me to process emotions internally. However, I recommend seeking professional help if writing alone isn’t sufficient."

While Karen found writing to be a powerful tool for self-healing, she acknowledges that it may not be enough for everyone. She encourages individuals experiencing severe grief or destructive emotions to seek professional counseling and support alongside their personal writing practices.

10. Notable Quotes

• Karen Wyatt [33:18]:
  "Grief can be felt in times of happiness, when good things are happening. Life is a series of losses and changes, and grief is an emotion that's always present for us."

• Karen Wyatt [35:50]:
  "Writing gives us a place to express and ventilate our emotions, to put down what’s otherwise hidden or repressed inside of us."

• Karen Wyatt [48:08]:
  "Focusing on universal spiritual concepts like love and forgiveness helped me move beyond resentment and find peace in my grief."

• Karen Wyatt [59:20]:
  "When I shared my stories with my mother, it became a healing moment for both of us, allowing us to communicate our grief in a way we hadn't before."

• Karen Wyatt [44:04]:
  "Writing served as my therapist, allowing me to process emotions internally. However, I recommend seeking professional help if writing alone isn’t sufficient."

11. Conclusion and Takeaways

Joanna Penn and Karen Wyatt conclude by reinforcing the therapeutic benefits of writing in coping with grief and change. They encourage listeners to embrace writing as a means of self-expression and healing while also acknowledging the importance of community support and professional help when needed. The episode underscores the transformative power of storytelling in navigating life's most challenging emotions.

12. Additional Resources

• Karen Wyatt’s Podcast: End of Life University (eoluniversity.com)
• Karen Wyatt’s Books: "Stories from the Dark Night" and others focused on death, loss, and grief.
• Joanna Penn’s Resources: The Creative Penn website, free author blueprint (thecreativepenn.com/blueprint)

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This episode offers a compassionate exploration of how writing can serve as a vital tool for managing grief and adapting to life’s inevitable changes. Through Karen Wyatt’s personal experiences and professional insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the intricate emotions tied to grief and the empowering role of creative expression in healing.

Transcript

[Joanna Penn]

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives, I'm Joanna Penn and this is episode number 799 of the podcast and it is Saturday 15th March 2025. As I record this in today's show, I'm talking about Writing as a Tool for Grief with Karen Wyatt. We talk about the different types of grief that we deal with throughout life, using writing to deal with complex emotion, when something is personal writing and when you might consider publishing it, how to deal with family members or friends who might have issues with your writing, aspects of spirituality in grief and more. I was also recently on Karen's show End of Life University talking about how to write non fiction about difficult topics like grief. So you can also have a listen to that if you enjoy our conversation. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing Things. Well, it's all about audio again this week. So a few weeks ago Spotify announced the integration with Elevenlabs AI Narration so you can publish those files through Findaway Voices owned by Spotify and they will be on Spotify as well as some other platforms. And I said at the time when I announced that, what will the response of Amazon be since this will no doubt bring AI Narration into the mainstream and we already have the response. So it looks like Amazon is now rolling out Audible Virtual Voice avv, their AI Narration service, into other territories. So it has been available in the US and on limited beta invite only for over a year. And I think there's well the last report on it there were over 40,000 books, but that was maybe about six months ago, so there's probably a lot more. Now this, as I said, it's been US only invite only and I got an invite this week and I've heard from other authors in the uk, Canada and also more authors in the US that they also now have access. I don't think this timing is coincidental. So while it's not available to everyone right now, but my invitation actually went into spam and I didn't know I got it. And then I went to my KDP dashboard and the button had appeared. So basically what happens is once you get invited, you get access to this button. So on books which have no audio version on your KDP dashboard you'll see a little button that says Add Audiobook with Virtual Voice. Now, to be eligible, your ebook must be enabled for all territories, worldwide rights or United States, but that probably is most indie authors. It's only English or Spanish and I'm sure that will change over time. And they have a whole list of eligibility things. But it looks like you can only see the eligibility list if you have access to this AI Virtual voice, Audible Virtual Voice. So if you get the email or if you get the button and then you might find that email in your spam, as I did, then it's at least worth having a look. There are more than 50 voices so far, various accents, and it is free to create them at this time. This is a big deal. It is free to create the audiobook. Now you can set a list price, but of course on Audible many books are included in the plus and also many are on credit, so you're unlikely to get that entire list price per for many lessons. KDP currently offers 40 royalty rate for audiobooks with virtual voice sold on Amazon and in audible stores where KDP supports audiobook distribution. So that's audible app, audible.com and.co.uk I presume Amazon Music Unlimited, Alexa and Amazon.com now the big thing of course is this is exclusive audio. They own the files so you can't download and sell them elsewhere. I check the terms and conditions and it says you retain all ownership rights in and the copyrights and all other rights and interest in your books. We retain ownership in the AVV Audible Virtual Voice Edition file. So yes, remember to always check the terms and conditions. So how does this compare to elevenlabs? Well, first of all, it is free to create. Now, I get emails almost every day saying I can't afford the 11 labs. $100. Really? So what is free? And this is free. So it's a pretty good offer to be fair. And it is Amazon and Audible, so you get good distribution but you can't sell the files anywhere else. So this is what I thought was going to happen. Basically, if you want to be wide with audio, either you use human narration or you have two sets of AI files. AVV for Amazon, Audible and ElevenLabs, or Google AutoNation for Spotify and other platforms including Kickstarter, including Shopify, including any other way of selling direct. So I can't see this changing either. I think obviously Amazon and Audible have always had a very exclusive mindset around content, so I can't see them suddenly enabling it. Although of course if ElevenLabs could get their files into Audible would be fantastic. So there's a virtual voice studio, which is where you can preview and edit the audio and hear what the audiobook will sound like. You can add pauses, change voice speed and edit pronunciation. Now I did have a go at this just before I did these notes. I wanted to have a go one Catacomb, which is a male narrator. So I haven't done it myself. I selected the voice. It generates an audiobook cover for the ebook. If your ebook is in KDP select the audiobook will be enrolled in Audible Plus. I found the studio thing very easy to use, but it is not as directable as 11 labs. So if you really love your audio and you want a lot more control, you will want to use 11 labs. If you want to sell direct, you want to use 11 labs. But I did like the feature where you can just select a word. So in Catacomb, the it's like a monster horror set in the catacombs under Edinburgh. And the beast is called the Grensloach, which is a sort of Grendel from Beowulf meets the Sluach, which are these Celtic spirits of the dead. And so I was like, okay, Grensloach. But of course pronouncing that is hard enough. So you can just highlight the word, overtype it with phonetics and it will then change the whole book. So I thought that was good. I think this will very swiftly accelerate the amount of audio available. And also people are going to get used to AI audio very quickly. Now if you're like me and you Already listen at 1.3 or 1.5 or 2x already, you will know that it matters very little. And the quality is already amazing. Now obviously this is not going to stop human narration. I'm still going to human narrate my non fiction any more memoirs I write, probably my short stories because then I can get it on multiple platforms and I absolutely support human narrators continuing to do their thing. I think as I've said for many years now, there is going to be a stratification of rights where some books are done with AI and some books are done with humans. But certainly I have just signed a contract for my first set of AI narrated audiobooks. It's a French language contract and for my Map Walker series and the contract specifically is for AI audio. And I'm fine with that. I think it's a way to get audiobooks out there. The qual. As I said, the quality is excellent and that is what this company are doing a lot of now, so there you go. But this has also shifted my thoughts on Death Valley. So just last week I said that Human me would narrate the audiobook of Death Valley, but this announcement with avv, Amazon AVV has changed my mind because I think the acceptance of AI audio will come faster than expected. And so I have a JF Pen voice clone on Elevenlabs and my voice clone is going to narrate Death Valley and I'm going to be working with someone on that and I will talk more on that to come. I am also planning to license that voice, so I'm going to have two voices. One is J.F. penn narration voice, which is a little darker, a little less upbeat. And then I'm going to have a Virtual Joanna Pen voice as well, which I'm going to train and that is going to be available for other people to use. So if you would like me to narrate your book as Virtual Joanna Pen or Virtual JF Pen, that will soon be an option. I'm thinking of having like a landing page on my site for books like that and I'm just considering how that might work, but I'm definitely interested in doing that. Obviously I wouldn't be involved, but I still think it's cool. I am also going to link to an episode of the show and you can go back in the backlist to have a listen. December 4, 2020 I did an episode on the podcast called Voice Streaming and Subscription Audio in a Time of AI and a quote from that episode, AI Voices will narrate mass market audio content with human narrators producing artisan audio experiences now. So that is just over four years I guess, and I'm usually four or five years early. So we're right on time with this one. That's a chapter from my AI book that I did.

[Karen Wyatt]

Well, my book on AI, I should say.

[Joanna Penn]

There are also more developments from Spotify this week. They've just launched a new publishing program for indie authors. They've said Spotify Audiobooks is thrilled to be opening submissions for short form content written by independent authors who are as passionate about audiobooks as we are. We know Spotify users love exploring these intense bite size listens, and expanding our Audiobooks catalog in this way gives fans even more choice in the content they love to consume on our platform. This is a global program and any author with an English language short form story who controls their own audio rights for that story can submit. If Spotify chooses to move forward with an authored submission, Spotify will publish the audiobook, which includes paying in advance and royalties, managing all aspects of production and and distribution to major audiobook retailers. Make sure your story is a novelette of approximately 10,000 to 20,000 words. So this is interesting because I was like, yay, short stories. Gonna do some, gonna submit them. And then I'm like 10 to 20,000 words. Wow. I've actually never written fiction in that bracket. So the longest short story I have is 8,000 words, which is. I think that's De Extinction of the Nephilim. So 10,000 to 20,000 words, you know, and then my. I guess my shortest novellas are sort of 27,000. So I was like, okay, this is interesting. They want quite a specific length. So that is. That's around 9,000 words per hour. Listening on 1X. So I was thinking that is probably people like me who listen on 1.2 or 1.3 usually, or up to 1.5 depending on the speed of the narration. So if I listen on 1.5, I can definitely get maybe 12,000, 15,000 in an hour. So I think that's what they're aiming for. And I've said before on the show that I talked to someone at Spotify and they said people who commute, their average commute is like an hour and people want something to be able to listen in an hour. So that would be, I think more the 10 to 15,000 range. Personally, they also say focus on three genres. Romance, mystery, thriller or sci fi fantasy. Personally, I think that is more than three genres. Do you sci fi fantasy. People get annoyed with being lumped together. I certainly read a lot of fantasy and I rarely read sci fi, but I think they're two different genres. I also think mystery and thriller are different genres, but there you go. So they've said three, but it could be five genres. They also say cross genre is fine. Romantasy, dark romance, thriller, mystery, sci fi or psychological thriller. No erotica or children's content. The story must sound great, read out loud. Featuring sharp characters, atmospheric settings and engaging dialogue that leaves the listener feeling something and wanting more. So I'll link to that in the show notes. In my book Audio for Authors, there is a chapter on writing for audio as you need to write differently. And in fact as I even as I say this, I had mentioned last year around updating old editions, it may be time to update audio for authors given how much AI audio has moved on. But there is a chapter in there about writing for audio as you need to write differently. And keep in mind the ear of a human rather than the rest of the brain. I guess the eye, if you read with the I, you skip over things. So, for example, one of the most common recommendations for authors is to use the word said and said disappears on a page. On a written page, the human eye will just skip over said. But when you're listening, the repeated use of said and other repeated sounds can put listeners off. So try using action instead of dialogue tags. So we're not saying change it to whispered or all of that. You just need to make it obvious to the listener who is speaking. For example, Morgan crept down the stairs, gun outstretched before her. There's something down here, so you know that Morgan is the speaker. You don't have to say Morgan said. So that's just one of the tips. And there's also an interview from 2019 in the backlist on Writing for Audio first with Jules Horn, who also has a book on the topic. Link in the show notes or just search the backlist. I think this is really important, especially with this audible virtual voice, because with ElevenLabs you can actually edit the text and as the author, that's completely fine. So you can kind of edit things as you go through, but with the audible virtual voice, you can't edit it. It needs to match the ebook. They just do it from the ebook. So you need to be much clearer. So that is lots on audio. It's certainly, certainly been a big week. I would say this is the tipping point, week or month, maybe with the Spotify 11 Labs announcement and this announcement. This is the tipping point, but also good news for printing and selling direct. Book Vault is now printing in Canada as well as Australia and the US and uk. So if you use Book Vault, you can sel select printing locations per book. That is great news because the shipping can be prohibitive in Canada and Australia. So in personal news, well, I am back from Iceland, which was a combination of book research and also celebrating my 50th birthday. I am now on the other side of the hill, as several people have emailed me. And I actually quite like that symbolism. And the view is even better from over here. So it was a great trip. We made it out to the Snaefellsnest national park in the West Fjords to see the Black Church at Budia. And we also saw the Northern Lights out near Thingvellir national park, which was a highlight. We were so lucky with the weather. The sky was clear, it was very cold, so we had some blue skies during the day. And then we had the Northern lights at night and there are some pictures on my Instagram and my Facebook and I've also done a blog post about it with photos and tips and book recommendations. It's at booksandtravel page, blog or link in the show notes. Also really liked the street art and the sculptures around Reykjavik. And yeah, we went in the sky lagoon in the hot pools and it was all generally a lovely trip. So yes, have a look at that if you're interested in Iceland. And yes, I will be writing some kind of story, either a short story or something else about Iceland. On other landmark moments, I have put another blog post on the Creative Pen Measure your life by what you create. 50 at 50 so I've been writing seriously since 2006. That's 19 years. It's crazy. And I've had a card on my wall for many of those years. Create a body of work I'm proud of. 50 books by 50 and so I had to do a post this week assessing whether I'd made it. Now the problem of course is what is a book? You might think that's simple, but what if you do multiple editions of multiple books? So for example, how to make a living with your writing has had three editions. How to market a book I think is three editions. Obviously some of my fiction I've had several editions. So when you do multiple editions it's the same book but you've still done all the work to rewrite that. Also, what about short stories? What about co writing? All those things, short fiction versus long fiction, all of that? I mean short non fiction things as well. So I made a point system and by my point system I did make it to 50 by 50. But in terms of the actual totals excluding multiple editions, I've written 12 full length non fiction books, 8 short non fiction books, 18 full length novels, 6 novellas, 12 short stories, and a memoir. So I'm pretty happy with that. Many authors have written much more than me. Many authors have written a lot less than me. So we don't need to measure ourselves against anyone else. We can just be happy with what we have. And since I measure my life by what I create, I'm pretty happy with that. Link to the post in the show notes or it's just on the creative pen.com on the blog I posted the link on X with the question did I make it to 50 at 50? And MCA Hogarth commented on X Amusingly, this didn't go the way I expected the so I'm going to create a complex measuring system to tackle the question was a plot twist, only logical from someone who writes thrillers, which made me laugh. So I had to win. Somehow I couldn't say oh no, I failed. So in other podcast appearances, I'm on the Biz Book broadcast with Liz Scully talking about writing the Shadow why embracing the shadow side can help us write more deeply and lead to greater creativity. And especially important in these in this age of AI that we as ever double down on being human. And the shadow side is definitely very human Also coming this week, my books and travel podcast returns and in the first episode launching this Thursday 20th of March, I'm doing a solo episode. Well, I've already recorded it, reflecting on why I'm bringing it back. And of course there are 92 other episodes in the feed and they are all evergreen. So there's no news segment. It's about different places and topics and attitudes. Just search books and travel wherever you're listening to this or go to booksandtravel page, listen to find links and the backlist so thanks for your emails and comments and photos this week. Nina says. I was very touched by your episode with Jacob and how you both allowed yourself to wander into places you hadn't expected. Jacob's point about having used the day job as a funding source really resonated with me. It has started to make me regard my own day job less as an obstacle and more as an enabler. Loved this slow, reflective episode that got at the heart of what we do. Thank you Nina. I'm so glad you enjoyed it. Andrew sent an email. I mentioned the 11 Labs speech to text new tool and Andrew emailed to say I've been using dictation since the first version of Dragon. Naturally speaking when I went full time as an author a decade back, dictation was critical, but I was never satisfied with Dragon's accuracy and eventually went back to typing. Which is okay, but dictation is my flow state and how I do my best writing. I've tried multiple AI solutions and they didn't work for various reasons, but 11Labs is amazing. It's exactly what I've been looking for and I'm back to walking and dictation with word counts like the old days. Thank you so much. You have no idea how helpful this has been after years of trying Dragon alternatives that never quite quite worked. This is great to hear Andrew, because I haven't tried it yet, but I think this is very good to know. I also have problems sometimes when I interview people, particularly on that books and travel podcast. If people have different accents, often like Dragon, and many of these tools are very good for American voices, very good for male voices. But if you have like a woman with a Indian accent for example, then it doesn't work so well. Or a woman with an Irish accent, it doesn't work so well. So this is great to hear. I'm looking forward to playing with this myself. So that is the 11 labs. They have a speech to text tool and Lee sent some gorgeous pictures of graves by the mountains and said love, love love the podcast and the books and everything you do. In late February I was in Big Bend national park for some hiking in far West Texas, one of my favorite places on the planet. There are some small towns near the park entrance, one of which is Terlingua, Texas. I've been coming to this cemetery for years. It looks really cool, so thank you for that. Leigh okay, so please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on the YouTube channel. Send me a message on X at the Creative Pen or email me. Send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation so today's episode is sponsored by Draft2Digital and I use Draft2Digital to publish my ebooks wide onto various platforms including Apple these days. Are you an indie author in need of an easy and efficient Print on demand service backed by a world class customer support team? Look no further than D2D print from Draft 2 Digital. D2D print is ideal for authors who've already published ebooks but haven't yet experimented with printing. With D2D print, you can convert an ebook to a Print on demand file with just a few clicks. Turn an ebook cover image into a full wrap around print cover in seconds. Choose from dozens of beautiful interior layouts for that professional look. Choose from a variety of industry standard trim sizes and formatting options. Distribute your Print on demand files worldwide. You can even use Drafts2Digital's free ISBNs. You can order author copies within 32 countries and order print proofs from a variety of shipping options without proof stamped on your book. You can also use free change tokens every 90 days to make updates to your published print books. All this and more with no setup or recurring fees. Print on Demand is a game changer for indie authors because while brick and mortar bookstores can't physically stock every book, they can check for the print on demand availability of a book book when a customer requests it. If you only publish digital books, you could be missing a huge opportunity to reach more readers. Let's fix that with D2D print. Learn more for everything you can do at draft2digital.com that's draft and then the number2digital.com so this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] TheCreativePen thanks to the 21 new patrons who've joined in the last 10 days. Bit of a bumper lot, and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community, you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering topics on writing, craft and author business, as well as tutorials and demos on AI tools and my Patron Only Q and A solo episodes and my live office hours. The next one is coming in a few weeks at the end of March. In the last week I've shared a video Tutorial on using ElevenLabs for audiobooks with Simon Patrick, one of our community and an expert in AI audio. And I also went through the new Amazon Audiobook virtual voice process on another post. It's been a busy week. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. You get access to everything, all the backlist content, Q&As, office hours. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A T-R-E-O-N.com TheCreativePen Right, let's get into the interview.

[Karen Wyatt]

Dr. Karen Wyatt is a retired hospice physician and best selling author of books about death, loss and grief. She's also the host of the End of Life University Podcast and an inspirational speaker. And today we're talking about her book, Stories from the Dark Writing as a Tool for Grief. So welcome back to the show, Karen.

Thank you Joanna. I'm so excited to be talking to you once again.

Yes. Now it's been a while. So first up, tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

All right, well like so many of the your guests that you interview here, I was, I've always been interested in stories and I started writing stories when I was seven years old and I wrote a three act play when I was 10, but which my school ended up producing. So I'm actually, I guess I could say I'm a published playwright, my one one and only play, but always loved Writing down my thoughts and ideas and telling stories and writing them down and of got waylaid in terms of writing by becoming a doctor. So I had a number of years there of intense schooling, and then I was a doctor and a wife and mother at the same time and had very, very little time for writing. It was precious time if I ever could just sit down and jot down a little story that was in my head. But the creative juices kept flowing, as I know you've talked about, like just ideas, ideas, ideas every day for stories or things I wanted to write, but I always had to put that aside. I was too busy. So I finally retired from medicine early and I. I was a hospice physician for a number of years. I retired early so that I could write because I'd been gathering all these stories while I worked in hospice. Amazing, beautiful stories from patients I worked with. And I just knew it's time for me now to shift into writing mode. So, so I retired early 15 years ago and started writing then. And I. I hadn't really thought about what it takes to publish a book. I didn't know that. But I finally started delving into that. And through you and your podcast, I learned about independent publishing. And I've been able to publish my books myself most of the time, though. I've. I worked once with a hybrid publisher and then most recently with Watkins Publishing from the uk. And so it's been a really fun journey for me of finally having a chance later in life to get into the writing that, that I started when I was seven years old.

That's wonderful. We're just on. Just on being drawn to the darker side. I mean, obviously as a doctor, you could have gone into many different areas and ended up in hospital being a hospice physician, and now you're writing about end of life. So has that always been an interest? I mean, I guess I'm saying this from the perspective of someone as you know, I have always thought about death like the very young age. I remember thinking about death and dying. So it's always been on my mind. I wondered if that was true for you.

I did have some interest in death and dying. I had a classmate of mine died when we were 16 years old, and that kind of really woke me up to the idea that, oh my goodness, everyone dies and you could die at any age. And I started really contemplating my own mortality at 16. Like, you know what? Nothing's guaranteed. I could die at any time. So I, I will say death has been on my thoughts since a young age. And then early in my medical career, my father died by suicide. And I was really plunged into the. This whole world. I. And I call it my dark night of the soul in a way of grief after his death, which is what led me into working for hospice because I. I realized even though I had thought about death, I didn't really know anything about it, and I didn't know anything about grief, even even though I was a doctor, I hadn't had any training in that area. So I started volunteering for hospice to help me understand what I was going through. What. What am I going through here as I'm grieving my father's death? And. And ultimately I shifted my whole career to hospice because I found it was. It was just a rich, very spiritual, sacred place to be, a sacred way to be a doctor with working with patients and families and for me, so it was really grief itself that shifted me my path as a doctor initially. And then again, as I said, I started gathering so many stories and learning so many things about this process of loss and how we navigated and cope with it in life that I really felt inspired to start writing and talking and teaching about it, because at that time it seemed like. It seemed like a very taboo subject. I think it still is in many ways.

It's so weird you said there that the. As doctors, you didn't really get into the death side of things, which just seems so crazy to me because it happens to 100 of people and it's like a physical process, obviously, much more than that.

[Joanna Penn]

But.

[Karen Wyatt]

But why aren't doctors trained on this kind of thing?

It's so bizarre. I still. I still can't wrap my head around why is that. But partly because modern medicine focus so much on curing illness and saving lives that death has become the enemy. So we don't want to think about that or talk about that because we don't want it to happen for our patients. And it's ridiculous because. Because it does happen. And I think back when a patient was approaching death in the hospital, when we were in training, suddenly that patient was taken off our service. We didn't follow them anymore because, well, they weren't a good teaching tool. Now, because they're going to die, we' move on to the patients that we can cure because that's what we're here to learn about. And it really doesn't make any sense, but it's part of why we have a problem with how we take care of people at the end of life. And I think why I just felt inspired, like I want to help do this differently, and that's why hospice was so appealing to me and why books.

And writing and talking about these things are so important, because there's, as you say, a lot of taboo and perhaps even more taboo around the way your father died. You know, just lots of things that come up. But before we get into that, I just wanted us to talk about the word grief, because it feels like there are many forms of grief. It is not just if we are dying or if our partner is dying or our family is dying or if someone is dying. So what are some of the other ways that grief might come up for people and might help them if they're feeling certain ways?

I think. I think it is important for us to recognize that we feel grief whenever major changes take place in our life. I had a mom tell me she grieved when her child no longer used baby language, like, started talking and saying words normally, and they lost all the cute little expressions that their toddler used to say. When that was over with, she felt grief because it was a big change, and something shifted and she lost something. So. So we can feel grief even in times of happiness, when good things are. If you think about it, life is one series of losses, loss, and change after another. And so it makes sense in a way. Grief is kind of an emotion that's always present for us. If we really look at it, is.

It a change that is out of our control rather than something that we can control? So I'm thinking. Personally, I feel like when I went through menopause, I felt a lot of grief over losing a sense of who I was as a younger woman, I guess. And then I feel, like, a lot of anger. That is, as we record this in 2025, there's a lot of political anger in different sides, and also anger around AI kind of maybe taking people's jobs. And all of these things are not choices that are made deliberately. They're things that are almost out of our control. So how much does grief and control all sort of go together?

Oh. Oh, I think definitely. I mean, I think the way we cope with grief or navigate grief has a lot to do with control. If we have any sense that I can control my surroundings, I can change what I need to change. That gives us a little bit more resilience and more. More ability to deal with the losses that we experience. But when it feels outside of our control and there's nothing we can do, I think that is the. The. The deeper form of grief that's very hard to Manage and as you said, because it's associated with a lot of anger as from. From the ego level, especially like anger. How, how is it that all of this can happen to me and I can't do anything about it?

Yes. So, well, let's come into writing then, when these feelings overtake us and we really just don't know what we're doing. Why is writing so useful when it comes to grief? And how has it helped you in particular?

Well, I think grief, as we already said it can contain such a mixture of emotions and we, we typically think of grief as just being sadness over a loss. But as you pointed out, there's a lot of anger within grief and guilt and regret, sometimes resentment, sometimes even relief. There's sometimes a joy that's present within grief. So it's a very. It's a very comple. Complex situation with lots of emotions bubbling up all at once. And yet we don't know what to do with, with all of that emotion. And writing gives us a place to express it, to ventilate the emotion and put it down on paper. And we sometimes hesitate to express verbally to other people all of these things that are going on with us, this mixture of emotion during grief, because other people don't necessarily understand it and may not want to listen to it. And it' Writing is our place to communicate all of these crazy thoughts we have and confusing feelings that we have. And it's a safe, non judgmental place. We can just put it down on paper and validate ourselves that we're going through this difficult time and it doesn't always make sense, but we can express it at least and give voice to what is otherwise can be hidden or repressed inside of us.

And so with your father, how did writing help you? Like, was it just, oh, things are bad, I'm going to write this essay or this poem and then suddenly I feel better. Is that how it worked?

No, no, not at all.

Obviously not. I didn't.

I mean, I. I didn't even think of the idea of. Of writing itself. I didn't even recognize that that could be therapeutic in some way. But at the time of my father's death, I happened to be reading Ju book the Artist's Way and where she talks about doing morning pages every day. I was really, had been intrigued by that idea before of doing morning pages. And I found I was waking up early every morning, I couldn't sleep and I had. Dealing with this insomnia and I was actually really busy. I was a mom and a wife And a doctor and so busy I. I felt like I don't even have time to deal with grief or to deal with my emotions during the day. I'm just busy having to do all these things. So I would wa up at four in the morning and couldn't sleep and I remembered morning pages and I would. I started just getting up early every single morning and writing and morning pages. It's stream of consciousness writing where you just write out, write down anything that's in your head. And much of what I wrote down dealt with. I'm angry, I feel guilty, I feel it dealt with all these confusing, conflicting emotions I felt inside around my father's death. And I, I didn't even know for sure that was all happening inside until I started writing, writing the morning pages and it was all coming out of me and it gave me a place to, just as I said, to ventilate and release those emotions. And it actually became a place where I was processing grief without even realizing it every morning writing those three pages of stream of consciousness. So that's how, how I began with that type of writing. And I highly recommend it. I don't know if you've ever, if you've ever done it. I'm sure you've read the book.

Oh yeah, yeah. I've always kind of been a journaler, but I don't do morning pages like every day. But when I did, I feel like when I got divorced my first husband left me. So it was out of my control. It was not my choice. And the sort of three journals that I have from that time are full of. And it's so repetitive, you know, there's no point in me reading it. But back and maybe it's the same with, with you. It's like that is just raw emotion that every single day sounds exactly the same. And there is this period where that, I mean that just happens, right For a period of time. You can't really get past those initial emotions in your outpouring.

No, no. It's just there's so much of it inside of us that needs to come out. And that's what, that's what I find. It's. I'm writing the same thing every day. But Julia Cameron mentions about, about writing these morning pages. It helps us event of our logic brain, which in grief, the logic brain she calls it, is always trying to figure out why this happened. It's always trying to figure out an explanation. It needs an answer for all the questions. But once you can move past the logic brain, you actually awaken the creative side of your brain, which can start to express things in more. In symbols and stories start coming alive. And the creative brain is actually figuring out, oh, this grief, this is interesting. How can I use that in a creative way to make something else? And that's, I think, for me, when I felt that shift happen, that's when I started to move into a more productive aspect of working through my grief, when I was really able to start processing it better and get past all these ruminating thoughts that just came over and over again.

And I think that's. That's what's interesting. In your stories from the Dark Night. It isn't just that stream of consciousness grief. In fact, it's not that at all. There's all kinds of different sorts of writing. So tell us what happened when you moved into that productive side of it and what are the types of writing that came out?

Well, I started. Yeah, I started writing whatever came to me. And I guess the morning pages opened that up a little bit because after doing that for months and months, one day a poem came into my head. Head and. And I just wrote it down. And it happened to be about my dad's death. Another day a story came to mind that I wrote about. And every. It seemed that everything I started writing, even though I didn't think it was related to my dad's death, ended up being about my dad's death in some way or another, symbolically or in some way or another. But. But gradually I just started having these creative impulses to write some little thing. I would write down whatever came to me. And I was still doing the morning pages every day. But at other times of day, something else would. Would pop up for me. And I would write a story, or sometimes it was an essay. Sometimes I. I read a guided writing prompt that actually really helped me dive deeper into a subject. And some of the prompts were as simple as. Someone said, write something about the word leftovers and what that means to you, and something of the word leftovers. Like, how is that inspirational? And yet I ended up writing a whole piece on. On leftovers. It was just being able to get into that creative part of my brain and writing whatever came to me. But I also then went on to more intentional writing. So I started writing, writing letters to my dad and expressing some things that I didn't get a chance to say before he died, expressing some of the deeper emotions that I felt around his death. And that was very therapeutic as well.

Yeah. On therapy, I think this is really interesting because I. When My husband left that, that first. I'm very happily married people, if you're listening now, I'm second marriage. But at that time I. I didn't see a therapist.

[Joanna Penn]

I'm not.

[Karen Wyatt]

Not even though we're doing a podcast. I'm not a talker. I didn't want to talk about my issues. But writing, writing it down, I feel like writing all of that over the years, it was really. And sort of recovering helped me heal and so I didn't need a therapist in some way. So where's the balance, do you think, for people between writing, helping with healing, and maybe needing to see a professional?

I, I'm much like you. I'm not. Not much of a talker and not always wanting to share my. To. To talk with another person or looking for that kind of external help. I'm much more internally oriented. So I want to dive into my own psyche. I want to look at that. I want to explore it and for myself. But I think for certain, whenever someone feels like they are just stuck and not getting anywhere and beginning to have very hurtful thoughts going through their minds or thoughts of feeling hopeless and that they may never be able to move forward, never be able to. To find a way through the grief, then they might need an outside person who can come and help them reflect. For me, it's like my journal felt like a therapist to me. I guess I was in some ways dialoguing with myself, my higher self, maybe in the journal, and serving as my own. My. My own therapist. Because I could read back through what I wrote and see, oh, h. Here's something I hadn't thought about before, but it's right there in what I just wrote. And this insight is, Is there for me, but for some people may not be able to do that. I may not be able to access that, you know, a higher wisdom or a different perspective through writing alone. And they may really benefit from talking to someone else. So I always encourage people, seek out counseling, find a therapist, especially if talking is beneficial for them.

I think the other thing there is a sort of. I mean, you mentioned insomnia earlier and I do feel like there is a period of grief of many kinds that is closer to mental illness, which insomnia doesn't help, obviously. At one point, I think in the dsm, grief was actually a mental illness considered to be, you know, very bad. But then it was recognized as. As a part of the human condition. So I, I guess to. Just to encourage people, if you're feeling like it is completely, completely bad, then Sometimes that is normal. It's just a case of how long that goes on for. I guess a bit like insomnia, you have to get that sorted out at some point because.

Because at some point it becomes destructive to your physical health. And if you find that you're not thriving and that you feel, in fact, that you're falling apart in many ways, I think it's really good to get input from an outside person and get help for that. The. It's funny. Grief re entered the DSM this past year as the. They created a new category, pathological grief, that they defined so that they could include severe grief. Because I think they realized, first of all, it was a mistake to say any kind of grief is a. Is a mental illness because it is actually a normal part. Part of all of our lives. But then when they took it out, they realized, oh, but wait, some people actually do get into a severe state of grief for which they need help. They may need medications, they may need therapy and counseling. So they made up a new diagnosis and put that. I put that back in.

[Joanna Penn]

Oh, I'm glad you brought that up.

[Karen Wyatt]

Then, because I. I thought it had gone and now it's back. So. Yeah, but no, of course there is a difference. And I think also some religious traditions, there are periods of time that. And ways of addressing mourning and death where it's like, for a certain amount of time you are expected to grieve, and then at a certain point of time, you are expected to not forget it all, but to move on with your life. And it's almost like those rituals of death and dying can help. And in fact, you're a spiritual person and you do put a Matthew, chapter five, Blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted into your book. So how does the spiritual perspective help you in your life and also in your writing and for people who are grieving?

Well, it's. It has been important to me, and it's one of the things I gained through my work, or I guess deepened through my work in hospice, observing people and families who were dealing with death in general and how they all grappled with these universal concepts that I would say are not limited to any one religion, but actually present in all religions of love and forgiveness and finding meaning, meaning and purpose in things. And so. So I gravitated toward that. That's these spiritual concepts that again, I. I'm not attached to any one religion, but I like the spiritual teachings and the concepts that are universal and apply to all of of them. So those ended up being the things that, where I found the most comfort is being able to focus on love and just bringing, bringing more love into my life and acting with love through love and finding ways to love myself even though I was feeling broken and in pain. And then forgiveness became especially powerful as well because I realized one thing that held me back in grieving my dad was not being able to recognize how angry I was at him and that I needed to forgive him for the choice he made to end his life. And when I was in denial of that for many years and when I finally saw it, like, oh, I'm hanging on to this really deep seated resentment toward him for the choice he made and I have to be able to forgive him because for whatever reason, reason that's what, that's what he chose and that's what his life came to. And I'm hurting myself by not forgiving him. So that spiritual concept of forgiveness really changed everything for me. And I've been, I work with that all the time now remembering, like, oh, don't hold on to grudges, don't be resentful. Just get over it. Just find a way to forgive. Because holding on to that kind of anger can be really toxic. Toxic.

Yeah. Well, that, that is the other side of anger, isn't it? And anger is such a huge part of death and dying, no matter which side of it you're on. And yeah, it's something I think about a lot. And there's so much anger at the moment in the world. And I feel like some kind of forgiveness is so important because it is just so toxic when everything is angry all the time. And I guess you would have seen, seen that a sort of the idea of a good death where the, there is acceptance of what's happening as opposed to anger as what's happening.

Yes. And I think the anger is normal and it has a place so we need to accept it and embrace it. That yes, of course we feel angry. Life didn't go the way we hoped it would. Like we have lost all these things, but it doesn't serve us to stay stuck there if we can hold our anger and then see a bigger picture beyond that. And I guess that's the other thing. The spiritual perspective for me has become what I call it the galaxy view of life where you step back and look at everything from, from a bigger perspective. Like looking down on planet Earth where we live. And how does my, this experience I'm having fit in to the cosmos in a way into everything that's happening here and and how do I accept it? As this is just part of life, of this vast mystery of life. And I. I choose to move into curiosity sometimes instead of anger. Like, instead of, of. Of doubling down and being angry about what's happening, being curious about how did this arise and what will come of it, what's going. What will happen next and what will come from it. And then that puts me back into creative braining again. Once you're curious, you become creative and you can find ways of making the best of the situation that you're in.

So we've talked a lot, I guess, about the writing we do for the self. And you can put whatever you like in your journal and it can be as repetitive as hell, and it frankly quite boring for anyone else to read. But then obviously you've published several books about. And this Stories from the Darkness Knight has, Has personal writing, but it is not that repetitive original work, I guess it's different. It's been transformed. So if people want to publish, obviously people listening are authors. How do you know when or how did you know when you were ready to share some of your writing about your dad and people and things that were difficult? Like how can people move from personal writing to writing for publication around the. These difficult topics?

For me, I understood that I couldn't share this writing until I had clarity around it. And I needed to be free of anger and blame because I understood like, a lot of the things I was writing early on were filled with those mixed emotions. But just ventilating anger and blaming other people, blaming everyone, blaming life. And I realized that is not productive. I'm ventilating it. It's helpful to me, ventilate it. It's not productive for other people to read that. And I want to get to that place of this higher view where I'm not looking at it with. Through the lens of anger or blame. I'm looking at it really through the. More through the lens of love. And how could talking about the pain that I experienced, is there a way that could be helpful to other people? And how can I express that in a way that. That could foster healing and growth for someone else? And that took me years to get to a place where I felt like I'm. I'm. I'm not writing out of anger. I'm not writing because I want to use my writing to hurt someone. And if that makes sense to you, that's what I needed to get past, is making sure I had healed enough and I had enough clarity that I had the right reasons for Putting. Putting my work out there. And then I chose very carefully what to share because there are lots of things I didn't share and trying to share things in. In that book, I was trying to share examples of what I wrote. Not that the writing itself is great, but I wanted to share examples of different ways that I wrote that ended up helping with my grief, different stories or essays or poems that I wrote that were helpful to me just to inspire other people to do their own writing.

And there are writing prompts within the book, aren't there?

Each chapter, yes.

And so you're really. I guess the. The main focus is when we write for ourself, it is all about us. And then if we're going to publish something, it has to be a focus on the other person.

Yes. That. That's primarily what I was feeling, is how will this impact others? And can it be a positive thing if I share it? That could inspire someone else and make them want to do their own writing and do their own work.

So also in the book, you talk about lifelines, and I thought it was a great term. So what do you mean by that? And how might people hold on to them when they're going through grief or other life changes?

For me, I had this. When I was really deep in grief, I had this image of being caught up in a tsunami, in a sense of just like these massive head waves, like, rushing over me and feeling like I was drowning at times. But somehow I would always come to the surface and there was always something I could hold on to. Just some little thing like. Like someone had thrown me a rope and it was keeping me afloat, and it was helping me find my way back to the shore. Instead of getting lost in thinking about, oh, I'm so overwhelmed with grief of thinking, oh, what was it yesterday that helped me get through? And then I would remember, oh, I heard that amazing song on the radio, and that reminded me of something dad and I did together. Or. Or I would find something. I found just a little note that my dad wrote to me when I was in college. I found it in a box somewhere and seeing his handwriting, and it was so touching to me, but it actually brought me joy. And that little moment was like one of those lifelines. And so I started just paying attention to all kinds of things that were happening. Oh, and another thing was a bird song. My dad loved the meadowlark. We grew up in Wyoming, and it's the state bird of Wyoming. And I would. From time to time, I would see a meadowlark or Hear a meadowlark sing. I started watching for those little things, those little tiny things a moment and like paying attention to the bird song and I'd hear the meadowlark. And that was one of my lifelines. Like, oh, there's dad. There's a. There's a connection with my dad. So when I started searching for the lifelines every day and just noticing and paying attention every day, there was something. Every day there was some kind of reminder that helped me feel connected to him and that those little things I felt like were just enough to keep me afloat. When it seemed like, oh, no, here comes the. Here comes the wave again. It's going to wash me under. But I would know there will be something. There'll be something I can hang on to that will, that will help me get afloat again.

And it's interesting because, of course, specifics like the sound of the meadow lock are what also bring our writing alive. So it's not just bird song, you know, I heard a bird sing. It's always, always the specifics and paying attention. And I guess again, that gives you an external. You're looking outside of yourself, not just being stuck in your head, which can again, just help you keep going.

Yes, yes, definitely. And yeah, looking for all the little symbols and little signs out outside of myself that remind me. Reminded me of dad sometimes even in a painful way. But oftentimes it was just poignant and sweet. The little reminders I would find like this. My dad sometimes smoked a pipe with this cherry tobacco, cherry scented tobacco in it. And the smoke always smelled like. Like cherries. And one day I smelled that someone was smoking a pipe with that scent. And I smelled it and it was like, wow, this amazing. Being transported in a way back into my childhood and being next to my dad. And. And so it's incredible when I started paying attention just how many little reminders there were. And for me, they were always very positive. Some people describe that they don't like having reminders because it makes them feel sadness over again. But for me, I always felt a mixture. I always felt the sweetness as well.

Yeah, that bittersweet, I think is. Is the word. And. But what about your family and other people who knew your dad? Because one thing that people worry about sometimes, if they do publish work about family members that might be a memoir or something that other people feel differently. So what are your thoughts on that? Did other people read it? Was that not a concern? And what are your recommendations for people?

When I started writing about it, the thing I was Most concerned was my mother and how she would feel about it. And initially I told my mom I had. I'd written some stories, and they have to do with my dad's death. And she said to me, I don't want to read them. Don't tell me anything about it. I don't. I don't want any of that. Don't talk about it or tell me anything. And then I was really worried, like, oh, no, if this is out in the world and other people comment to her or other. Other people read it, it will be upsetting to her. But the very next day, she called me and she said, read the story to me. And so she just had to. She had to get to a place of. Of comfort. And for me, it was a real dilemma. Do I put this out in the world if my mom can't bear it, Can't. Can't bear that this information is. Is out there. So I read her the story, and the story was just my story of my experience. And that's what I told her. I'm not. I'm not writing about what I think my dad experienced. I'm writing about my experience with grief when I found out my dad died and what. What that was like. So I really did keep it true and honest to my own experience without trying too much to conjecture on what my dad felt or what anyone else felt or anyone else's actions at that. That time. I. I kept to writing about what I experienced. Anyway, I read the story to her. We cried together. She loved it. And it was actually this incredibly positive healing moment for the two of us because we hadn't been able to speak so deeply about. About our grief together in all these many years since my dad had died. And that story is what unlocked it for us.

Oh, that's wonderful. And I hope people feel like it. You know, sometimes it can be a way to bring you together. I mean, again, we both said we're not really talkers. And I sometimes feel like I wish my family could read my books or would be interested in reading my books so they might understand how I feel, because I wouldn't be able to say it out loud, whereas I can say it in writing. And it's funny because I used to write a lot of letters, like, up until, I guess a decade ago or maybe two decades, decades ago. Now with email off, time flies. But I used to write so many letters in my teens and then when I was backpacking in the early 2000s. And I feel like maybe that's something we don't do so much anymore.

Yes, that's so true. And, and like you there, I think talking is difficult sometimes. When to talk together about a painful subject, it's sometimes really hard to find the words. And we're in our left brain all the time and we're censoring ourselves constantly when we're trying to talk. And it's. It's hard to have a really deep conversation with another person. But you can just write with honesty and integrity and be real and raw on. On the page and put it down. But again, for me, it's like I described before. I waited a long time before writing the story and then sharing that story until I knew, like, I am not. I did not write this to try to hurt someone, to try to blame my mom or hurt her or my brother or, or cause them any pain. I made sure what I was writing felt pure to me. And so I think that's why it had a positive impact for her.

Well, we say we would rather write, but we both have podcasts and I wanted to. As we come, we come towards the end, I wanted to just ask about your End of Life University podcast, which I've been on. But tell, tell people about that and what they can find on your podcast that might be interesting for them.

Well, I started the podcast back when I. After publishing my first book about. It was Seven Lessons for Living from the Dying and realizing nobody really wants to buy a book about. About dying. People don't talk about this. Nobody wants to hear about it. And realized it's not enough to write a book. I have to do something else to try to change this conversation around these topics. And I got the idea. Then I started listening to podcasts myself and thought there needs to be a podcast on this subject. So I started doing interviews and I discovered your podcast shortly after that. And I loved your style. I love the fact that you have a more eclectic podcast podcast that you go in lots of different directions and you're just interested in everything you know. And so you have lots of different guests, a variety of guests with a variety of topics. And I decided that's. That's what I'm interested in too. So I kind of modeled my podcast actually after yours and inviting lots of different guests and having different types of conversations, thinking, whatever, whatever we put out there should be helpful to someone. And the more people are able to hear conversations about difficult topics, the more comfortable they may get with having these conversations themselves. So. So I've been doing it for. Well, I actually started in 2013 with my first interviews back then. So it's. It's been a while. Like you. Not as long as you have been.

But that's amazing. And you do have so many different interesting topics and angles and different kinds of people. And. Sue, has the reception been what you wanted? I mean, you've obviously been doing it for so long. It's still of value to you and your community.

Yes. You know, it's been. I don't really even know what I expected in the beginning and in the. At first, I only attracted people who were already. Who worked for hospice, people who were already in the field and already had an interest. But now. But over the years, I've attracted more and more people who are, Are. Are just being themselves introduced to grief and death in their own lives. And I've received some amazing feedback and wonderful stories from people. One young man told me a friend of his was dying and he drove across the country to be with his friend and he listened to the podcast all the way, all the way there in the car so that he would understand death and dying and grief. And he said it, it made all the difference. And he said, I came to his bedside and I knew what to say and I knew how to be with him and how to be comfortable with my own pain and grief because of all the interviews I heard. And it was like, oh, wow, that's why I'm doing this. That's why I'm doing this. So it's a resource for people in a time of need who need to learn about something and, and want information. So I get, when I get feedback like that, it tells me, okay, this is what, this is why I'm doing it. And it keeps me going, really, because it's actually hard doing a podcast. It's such hard work.

Well, you really, you gave me goosebumps then. And I, I know people listening will be affected by that because every single person is going to be affected by grief at some point. And, you know, whether it's ourselves or other people, it's going to happen. So absolutely recommend your podcast and your books. So tell people where they can find you and everything you do online.

If they go to the website, it's eoluniversity.com and that stands for EOL is end of life. But E O luniversity.com a links to link to the podcast is there and to my books and pretty much everything they need to know about me.

Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Karen. That was great.

Thank you, Joanna. I've really enjoyed it.

[Joanna Penn]

So I hope you found the discussion with Karen interesting and it is good to consider grief as a response to change since there is so much of that happening and sometimes we don't choose it. And of course writing can help us through Let me know what you think of today's episode, including what you think about AI audio and whether you intend to use the new Audible Virtual virtual voice or 11 labs or anything else. Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. Comment on X at the Creative Pen or email me joannathecreativepen.com and also send me pictures of where you're listening or your favorite cemetery or churchyard. Next week it's a craft show and I'm talking about How Ordinary Drafts Become Extraordinary Books with Christopher Jansmar. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time.

[Karen Wyatt]

Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful.

[Joanna Penn]

You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] blueprint.

[Karen Wyatt]

If you'd like to connect, you can.

[Joanna Penn]

Via Find me on Facebook and X at the Creative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook at Jfpen. Author Happy writing and I'll see you next time.