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Writing As A Tool For Grief And Dealing With Change With Karen Wyatt

The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers

Mon Mar 17 2025

How can writing help you through difficult times, whether that's a change you didn't anticipate or an experience of grief? How can you differentiate between writing for yourself vs. writing for publication? Karen Wyatt gives her tips. In the intro,

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers Episode Title: Writing As A Tool For Grief And Dealing With Change with Karen Wyatt
Release Date: March 17, 2025
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Dr. Karen Wyatt
Description: In this heartfelt episode, Joanna Penn interviews Dr. Karen Wyatt, a retired hospice physician and bestselling author, about using writing as a means to navigate grief and significant life changes. They delve into the multifaceted nature of grief, the therapeutic benefits of writing, the challenges of publishing personal narratives, and the role of spirituality in the grieving process.

1. Introduction to the Episode

Joanna Penn opens the episode by highlighting the focus on writing as a tool for coping with grief and dealing with life's inevitable changes. She references her own recent appearance on Karen Wyatt's podcast, End of Life University, setting the stage for an in-depth conversation about their shared experiences with grief and writing.

2. Understanding Grief Beyond Loss

Timestamp [33:18] Karen Wyatt:
"Grief can be felt in times of happiness, when good things are happening. Life is a series of losses and changes, and grief is an emotion that's always present for us."

Karen emphasizes that grief extends beyond the loss of a loved one. It encompasses any significant change or loss, even those occurring in moments of joy. Examples include a child no longer using baby language or personal milestones like menopause, highlighting that grief is intertwined with the concept of control over life's events.

3. The Therapeutic Power of Writing

Timestamp [35:50] Karen Wyatt:
"Writing gives us a place to express and ventilate our emotions, to put down what’s otherwise hidden or repressed inside of us."

Karen shares her personal journey of using writing to process grief after her father's suicide. She began with morning pages—a practice inspired by Julia Cameron's The Artist's Way—which allowed her to release pent-up emotions through stream-of-consciousness writing. Over time, her writing evolved from raw emotional outpouring to more structured forms like poems, stories, and essays, enabling her to process her grief constructively.

4. From Personal to Published Writing

Timestamp [52:16] Karen Wyatt:
"I chose to share my writing only after I had clarity and no longer wrote out of anger or blame. I focused on writing from a place of love and healing to inspire others."

Transitioning from personal journaling to publishing was a significant step for Karen. She decided to share her writings only after achieving emotional clarity, ensuring that her work was not fueled by residual anger or blame. This deliberate approach allowed her to create content that was not only therapeutic for herself but also beneficial to others experiencing similar grief.

5. Navigating Family Reactions to Published Grief Writing

Timestamp [59:20] Karen Wyatt:
"When I shared my stories with my mother, it became a healing moment for both of us, allowing us to communicate our grief in a way we hadn't before."

Karen discusses the delicate dynamics of sharing grief-related writing with family members. Initially hesitant, her mother eventually found solace in reading Karen's stories, which facilitated deeper conversations and mutual healing. Karen advises authors to ensure their writing is intended for healing and to approach the topic with sensitivity to loved ones' feelings.

6. Spirituality and Grief

Timestamp [48:08] Karen Wyatt:
"Focusing on universal spiritual concepts like love and forgiveness helped me move beyond resentment and find peace in my grief."

Spirituality plays a crucial role in Karen's approach to grief. She highlights the importance of universal spiritual principles—such as love, forgiveness, and finding meaning—in navigating the grieving process. Embracing these concepts allowed her to shift from anger to curiosity, fostering resilience and creative thinking.

7. Karen Wyatt's End of Life University Podcast

Timestamp [63:45] Karen Wyatt:
"My podcast serves as a resource for people in need, helping them understand death, dying, and grief through meaningful conversations."

Karen shares insights about her own podcast, End of Life University, which aims to demystify and destigmatize conversations around death and grief. Through interviews and discussions, she provides valuable resources and support for individuals navigating loss, emphasizing the impact of shared experiences and knowledge.

8. Listener Feedback and Community Impact

Karen recounts touching stories from listeners who have found her podcast instrumental in their own experiences with grief. For example, one listener used her podcast while supporting a dying friend, enabling him to provide meaningful comfort.

9. Balancing Writing and Professional Help

Timestamp [44:04] Karen Wyatt:
"Writing served as my therapist, allowing me to process emotions internally. However, I recommend seeking professional help if writing alone isn’t sufficient."

While Karen found writing to be a powerful tool for self-healing, she acknowledges that it may not be enough for everyone. She encourages individuals experiencing severe grief or destructive emotions to seek professional counseling and support alongside their personal writing practices.

10. Notable Quotes

Karen Wyatt [33:18]:
"Grief can be felt in times of happiness, when good things are happening. Life is a series of losses and changes, and grief is an emotion that's always present for us."
Karen Wyatt [35:50]:
"Writing gives us a place to express and ventilate our emotions, to put down what’s otherwise hidden or repressed inside of us."
Karen Wyatt [48:08]:
"Focusing on universal spiritual concepts like love and forgiveness helped me move beyond resentment and find peace in my grief."
Karen Wyatt [59:20]:
"When I shared my stories with my mother, it became a healing moment for both of us, allowing us to communicate our grief in a way we hadn't before."
Karen Wyatt [44:04]:
"Writing served as my therapist, allowing me to process emotions internally. However, I recommend seeking professional help if writing alone isn’t sufficient."

11. Conclusion and Takeaways

Joanna Penn and Karen Wyatt conclude by reinforcing the therapeutic benefits of writing in coping with grief and change. They encourage listeners to embrace writing as a means of self-expression and healing while also acknowledging the importance of community support and professional help when needed. The episode underscores the transformative power of storytelling in navigating life's most challenging emotions.

12. Additional Resources

Karen Wyatt’s Podcast: End of Life University (eoluniversity.com)
Karen Wyatt’s Books: "Stories from the Dark Night" and others focused on death, loss, and grief.
Joanna Penn’s Resources: The Creative Penn website, free author blueprint (thecreativepenn.com/blueprint)

This episode offers a compassionate exploration of how writing can serve as a vital tool for managing grief and adapting to life’s inevitable changes. Through Karen Wyatt’s personal experiences and professional insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the intricate emotions tied to grief and the empowering role of creative expression in healing.

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Transcript

Joanna Penn (0:00)

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots more@thecreativepenn.com and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives, I'm Joanna Penn and this is episode number 799 of the podcast and it is Saturday 15th March 2025. As I record this in today's show, I'm talking about Writing as a Tool for Grief with Karen Wyatt. We talk about the different types of grief that we deal with throughout life, using writing to deal with complex emotion, when something is personal writing and when you might consider publishing it, how to deal with family members or friends who might have issues with your writing, aspects of spirituality in grief and more. I was also recently on Karen's show End of Life University talking about how to write non fiction about difficult topics like grief. So you can also have a listen to that if you enjoy our conversation. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing Things. Well, it's all about audio again this week. So a few weeks ago Spotify announced the integration with Elevenlabs AI Narration so you can publish those files through Findaway Voices owned by Spotify and they will be on Spotify as well as some other platforms. And I said at the time when I announced that, what will the response of Amazon be since this will no doubt bring AI Narration into the mainstream and we already have the response. So it looks like Amazon is now rolling out Audible Virtual Voice avv, their AI Narration service, into other territories. So it has been available in the US and on limited beta invite only for over a year. And I think there's well the last report on it there were over 40,000 books, but that was maybe about six months ago, so there's probably a lot more. Now this, as I said, it's been US only invite only and I got an invite this week and I've heard from other authors in the uk, Canada and also more authors in the US that they also now have access. I don't think this timing is coincidental. So while it's not available to everyone right now, but my invitation actually went into spam and I didn't know I got it. And then I went to my KDP dashboard and the button had appeared. So basically what happens is once you get invited, you get access to this button. So on books which have no audio version on your KDP dashboard you'll see a little button that says Add Audiobook with Virtual Voice. Now, to be eligible, your ebook must be enabled for all territories, worldwide rights or United States, but that probably is most indie authors. It's only English or Spanish and I'm sure that will change over time. And they have a whole list of eligibility things. But it looks like you can only see the eligibility list if you have access to this AI Virtual voice, Audible Virtual Voice. So if you get the email or if you get the button and then you might find that email in your spam, as I did, then it's at least worth having a look. There are more than 50 voices so far, various accents, and it is free to create them at this time. This is a big deal. It is free to create the audiobook. Now you can set a list price, but of course on Audible many books are included in the plus and also many are on credit, so you're unlikely to get that entire list price per for many lessons. KDP currently offers 40 royalty rate for audiobooks with virtual voice sold on Amazon and in audible stores where KDP supports audiobook distribution. So that's audible app, audible.com and.co.uk I presume Amazon Music Unlimited, Alexa and Amazon.com now the big thing of course is this is exclusive audio. They own the files so you can't download and sell them elsewhere. I check the terms and conditions and it says you retain all ownership rights in and the copyrights and all other rights and interest in your books. We retain ownership in the AVV Audible Virtual Voice Edition file. So yes, remember to always check the terms and conditions. So how does this compare to elevenlabs? Well, first of all, it is free to create. Now, I get emails almost every day saying I can't afford the 11 labs. $100. Really? So what is free? And this is free. So it's a pretty good offer to be fair. And it is Amazon and Audible, so you get good distribution but you can't sell the files anywhere else. So this is what I thought was going to happen. Basically, if you want to be wide with audio, either you use human narration or you have two sets of AI files. AVV for Amazon, Audible and ElevenLabs, or Google AutoNation for Spotify and other platforms including Kickstarter, including Shopify, including any other way of selling direct. So I can't see this changing either. I think obviously Amazon and Audible have always had a very exclusive mindset around content, so I can't see them suddenly enabling it. Although of course if ElevenLabs could get their files into Audible would be fantastic. So there's a virtual voice studio, which is where you can preview and edit the audio and hear what the audiobook will sound like. You can add pauses, change voice speed and edit pronunciation. Now I did have a go at this just before I did these notes. I wanted to have a go one Catacomb, which is a male narrator. So I haven't done it myself. I selected the voice. It generates an audiobook cover for the ebook. If your ebook is in KDP select the audiobook will be enrolled in Audible Plus. I found the studio thing very easy to use, but it is not as directable as 11 labs. So if you really love your audio and you want a lot more control, you will want to use 11 labs. If you want to sell direct, you want to use 11 labs. But I did like the feature where you can just select a word. So in Catacomb, the it's like a monster horror set in the catacombs under Edinburgh. And the beast is called the Grensloach, which is a sort of Grendel from Beowulf meets the Sluach, which are these Celtic spirits of the dead. And so I was like, okay, Grensloach. But of course pronouncing that is hard enough. So you can just highlight the word, overtype it with phonetics and it will then change the whole book. So I thought that was good. I think this will very swiftly accelerate the amount of audio available. And also people are going to get used to AI audio very quickly. Now if you're like me and you Already listen at 1.3 or 1.5 or 2x already, you will know that it matters very little. And the quality is already amazing. Now obviously this is not going to stop human narration. I'm still going to human narrate my non fiction any more memoirs I write, probably my short stories because then I can get it on multiple platforms and I absolutely support human narrators continuing to do their thing. I think as I've said for many years now, there is going to be a stratification of rights where some books are done with AI and some books are done with humans. But certainly I have just signed a contract for my first set of AI narrated audiobooks. It's a French language contract and for my Map Walker series and the contract specifically is for AI audio. And I'm fine with that. I think it's a way to get audiobooks out there. The qual. As I said, the quality is excellent and that is what this company are doing a lot of now, so there you go. But this has also shifted my thoughts on Death Valley. So just last week I said that Human me would narrate the audiobook of Death Valley, but this announcement with avv, Amazon AVV has changed my mind because I think the acceptance of AI audio will come faster than expected. And so I have a JF Pen voice clone on Elevenlabs and my voice clone is going to narrate Death Valley and I'm going to be working with someone on that and I will talk more on that to come. I am also planning to license that voice, so I'm going to have two voices. One is J.F. penn narration voice, which is a little darker, a little less upbeat. And then I'm going to have a Virtual Joanna Pen voice as well, which I'm going to train and that is going to be available for other people to use. So if you would like me to narrate your book as Virtual Joanna Pen or Virtual JF Pen, that will soon be an option. I'm thinking of having like a landing page on my site for books like that and I'm just considering how that might work, but I'm definitely interested in doing that. Obviously I wouldn't be involved, but I still think it's cool. I am also going to link to an episode of the show and you can go back in the backlist to have a listen. December 4, 2020 I did an episode on the podcast called Voice Streaming and Subscription Audio in a Time of AI and a quote from that episode, AI Voices will narrate mass market audio content with human narrators producing artisan audio experiences now. So that is just over four years I guess, and I'm usually four or five years early. So we're right on time with this one. That's a chapter from my AI book that I did.

Joanna Penn (10:21)

There are also more developments from Spotify this week. They've just launched a new publishing program for indie authors. They've said Spotify Audiobooks is thrilled to be opening submissions for short form content written by independent authors who are as passionate about audiobooks as we are. We know Spotify users love exploring these intense bite size listens, and expanding our Audiobooks catalog in this way gives fans even more choice in the content they love to consume on our platform. This is a global program and any author with an English language short form story who controls their own audio rights for that story can submit. If Spotify chooses to move forward with an authored submission, Spotify will publish the audiobook, which includes paying in advance and royalties, managing all aspects of production and and distribution to major audiobook retailers. Make sure your story is a novelette of approximately 10,000 to 20,000 words. So this is interesting because I was like, yay, short stories. Gonna do some, gonna submit them. And then I'm like 10 to 20,000 words. Wow. I've actually never written fiction in that bracket. So the longest short story I have is 8,000 words, which is. I think that's De Extinction of the Nephilim. So 10,000 to 20,000 words, you know, and then my. I guess my shortest novellas are sort of 27,000. So I was like, okay, this is interesting. They want quite a specific length. So that is. That's around 9,000 words per hour. Listening on 1X. So I was thinking that is probably people like me who listen on 1.2 or 1.3 usually, or up to 1.5 depending on the speed of the narration. So if I listen on 1.5, I can definitely get maybe 12,000, 15,000 in an hour. So I think that's what they're aiming for. And I've said before on the show that I talked to someone at Spotify and they said people who commute, their average commute is like an hour and people want something to be able to listen in an hour. So that would be, I think more the 10 to 15,000 range. Personally, they also say focus on three genres. Romance, mystery, thriller or sci fi fantasy. Personally, I think that is more than three genres. Do you sci fi fantasy. People get annoyed with being lumped together. I certainly read a lot of fantasy and I rarely read sci fi, but I think they're two different genres. I also think mystery and thriller are different genres, but there you go. So they've said three, but it could be five genres. They also say cross genre is fine. Romantasy, dark romance, thriller, mystery, sci fi or psychological thriller. No erotica or children's content. The story must sound great, read out loud. Featuring sharp characters, atmospheric settings and engaging dialogue that leaves the listener feeling something and wanting more. So I'll link to that in the show notes. In my book Audio for Authors, there is a chapter on writing for audio as you need to write differently. And in fact as I even as I say this, I had mentioned last year around updating old editions, it may be time to update audio for authors given how much AI audio has moved on. But there is a chapter in there about writing for audio as you need to write differently. And keep in mind the ear of a human rather than the rest of the brain. I guess the eye, if you read with the I, you skip over things. So, for example, one of the most common recommendations for authors is to use the word said and said disappears on a page. On a written page, the human eye will just skip over said. But when you're listening, the repeated use of said and other repeated sounds can put listeners off. So try using action instead of dialogue tags. So we're not saying change it to whispered or all of that. You just need to make it obvious to the listener who is speaking. For example, Morgan crept down the stairs, gun outstretched before her. There's something down here, so you know that Morgan is the speaker. You don't have to say Morgan said. So that's just one of the tips. And there's also an interview from 2019 in the backlist on Writing for Audio first with Jules Horn, who also has a book on the topic. Link in the show notes or just search the backlist. I think this is really important, especially with this audible virtual voice, because with ElevenLabs you can actually edit the text and as the author, that's completely fine. So you can kind of edit things as you go through, but with the audible virtual voice, you can't edit it. It needs to match the ebook. They just do it from the ebook. So you need to be much clearer. So that is lots on audio. It's certainly, certainly been a big week. I would say this is the tipping point, week or month, maybe with the Spotify 11 Labs announcement and this announcement. This is the tipping point, but also good news for printing and selling direct. Book Vault is now printing in Canada as well as Australia and the US and uk. So if you use Book Vault, you can sel select printing locations per book. That is great news because the shipping can be prohibitive in Canada and Australia. So in personal news, well, I am back from Iceland, which was a combination of book research and also celebrating my 50th birthday. I am now on the other side of the hill, as several people have emailed me. And I actually quite like that symbolism. And the view is even better from over here. So it was a great trip. We made it out to the Snaefellsnest national park in the West Fjords to see the Black Church at Budia. And we also saw the Northern Lights out near Thingvellir national park, which was a highlight. We were so lucky with the weather. The sky was clear, it was very cold, so we had some blue skies during the day. And then we had the Northern lights at night and there are some pictures on my Instagram and my Facebook and I've also done a blog post about it with photos and tips and book recommendations. It's at booksandtravel page, blog or link in the show notes. Also really liked the street art and the sculptures around Reykjavik. And yeah, we went in the sky lagoon in the hot pools and it was all generally a lovely trip. So yes, have a look at that if you're interested in Iceland. And yes, I will be writing some kind of story, either a short story or something else about Iceland. On other landmark moments, I have put another blog post on the Creative Pen Measure your life by what you create. 50 at 50 so I've been writing seriously since 2006. That's 19 years. It's crazy. And I've had a card on my wall for many of those years. Create a body of work I'm proud of. 50 books by 50 and so I had to do a post this week assessing whether I'd made it. Now the problem of course is what is a book? You might think that's simple, but what if you do multiple editions of multiple books? So for example, how to make a living with your writing has had three editions. How to market a book I think is three editions. Obviously some of my fiction I've had several editions. So when you do multiple editions it's the same book but you've still done all the work to rewrite that. Also, what about short stories? What about co writing? All those things, short fiction versus long fiction, all of that? I mean short non fiction things as well. So I made a point system and by my point system I did make it to 50 by 50. But in terms of the actual totals excluding multiple editions, I've written 12 full length non fiction books, 8 short non fiction books, 18 full length novels, 6 novellas, 12 short stories, and a memoir. So I'm pretty happy with that. Many authors have written much more than me. Many authors have written a lot less than me. So we don't need to measure ourselves against anyone else. We can just be happy with what we have. And since I measure my life by what I create, I'm pretty happy with that. Link to the post in the show notes or it's just on the creative pen.com on the blog I posted the link on X with the question did I make it to 50 at 50? And MCA Hogarth commented on X Amusingly, this didn't go the way I expected the so I'm going to create a complex measuring system to tackle the question was a plot twist, only logical from someone who writes thrillers, which made me laugh. So I had to win. Somehow I couldn't say oh no, I failed. So in other podcast appearances, I'm on the Biz Book broadcast with Liz Scully talking about writing the Shadow why embracing the shadow side can help us write more deeply and lead to greater creativity. And especially important in these in this age of AI that we as ever double down on being human. And the shadow side is definitely very human Also coming this week, my books and travel podcast returns and in the first episode launching this Thursday 20th of March, I'm doing a solo episode. Well, I've already recorded it, reflecting on why I'm bringing it back. And of course there are 92 other episodes in the feed and they are all evergreen. So there's no news segment. It's about different places and topics and attitudes. Just search books and travel wherever you're listening to this or go to booksandtravel page, listen to find links and the backlist so thanks for your emails and comments and photos this week. Nina says. I was very touched by your episode with Jacob and how you both allowed yourself to wander into places you hadn't expected. Jacob's point about having used the day job as a funding source really resonated with me. It has started to make me regard my own day job less as an obstacle and more as an enabler. Loved this slow, reflective episode that got at the heart of what we do. Thank you Nina. I'm so glad you enjoyed it. Andrew sent an email. I mentioned the 11 Labs speech to text new tool and Andrew emailed to say I've been using dictation since the first version of Dragon. Naturally speaking when I went full time as an author a decade back, dictation was critical, but I was never satisfied with Dragon's accuracy and eventually went back to typing. Which is okay, but dictation is my flow state and how I do my best writing. I've tried multiple AI solutions and they didn't work for various reasons, but 11Labs is amazing. It's exactly what I've been looking for and I'm back to walking and dictation with word counts like the old days. Thank you so much. You have no idea how helpful this has been after years of trying Dragon alternatives that never quite quite worked. This is great to hear Andrew, because I haven't tried it yet, but I think this is very good to know. I also have problems sometimes when I interview people, particularly on that books and travel podcast. If people have different accents, often like Dragon, and many of these tools are very good for American voices, very good for male voices. But if you have like a woman with a Indian accent for example, then it doesn't work so well. Or a woman with an Irish accent, it doesn't work so well. So this is great to hear. I'm looking forward to playing with this myself. So that is the 11 labs. They have a speech to text tool and Lee sent some gorgeous pictures of graves by the mountains and said love, love love the podcast and the books and everything you do. In late February I was in Big Bend national park for some hiking in far West Texas, one of my favorite places on the planet. There are some small towns near the park entrance, one of which is Terlingua, Texas. I've been coming to this cemetery for years. It looks really cool, so thank you for that. Leigh okay, so please leave a comment on the podcast show notes@wcreativepen.com or on the YouTube channel. Send me a message on X at the Creative Pen or email me. Send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation so today's episode is sponsored by Draft2Digital and I use Draft2Digital to publish my ebooks wide onto various platforms including Apple these days. Are you an indie author in need of an easy and efficient Print on demand service backed by a world class customer support team? Look no further than D2D print from Draft 2 Digital. D2D print is ideal for authors who've already published ebooks but haven't yet experimented with printing. With D2D print, you can convert an ebook to a Print on demand file with just a few clicks. Turn an ebook cover image into a full wrap around print cover in seconds. Choose from dozens of beautiful interior layouts for that professional look. Choose from a variety of industry standard trim sizes and formatting options. Distribute your Print on demand files worldwide. You can even use Drafts2Digital's free ISBNs. You can order author copies within 32 countries and order print proofs from a variety of shipping options without proof stamped on your book. You can also use free change tokens every 90 days to make updates to your published print books. All this and more with no setup or recurring fees. Print on Demand is a game changer for indie authors because while brick and mortar bookstores can't physically stock every book, they can check for the print on demand availability of a book book when a customer requests it. If you only publish digital books, you could be missing a huge opportunity to reach more readers. Let's fix that with D2D print. Learn more for everything you can do at draft2digital.com that's draft and then the number2digital.com so this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my community@patreon.com TheCreativePen thanks to the 21 new patrons who've joined in the last 10 days. Bit of a bumper lot, and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community, you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering topics on writing, craft and author business, as well as tutorials and demos on AI tools and my Patron Only Q and A solo episodes and my live office hours. The next one is coming in a few weeks at the end of March. In the last week I've shared a video Tutorial on using ElevenLabs for audiobooks with Simon Patrick, one of our community and an expert in AI audio. And I also went through the new Amazon Audiobook virtual voice process on another post. It's been a busy week. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. You get access to everything, all the backlist content, Q&As, office hours. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A T-R-E-O-N.com TheCreativePen Right, let's get into the interview.

Karen Wyatt (55:43)

For me, I had this. When I was really deep in grief, I had this image of being caught up in a tsunami, in a sense of just like these massive head waves, like, rushing over me and feeling like I was drowning at times. But somehow I would always come to the surface and there was always something I could hold on to. Just some little thing like. Like someone had thrown me a rope and it was keeping me afloat, and it was helping me find my way back to the shore. Instead of getting lost in thinking about, oh, I'm so overwhelmed with grief of thinking, oh, what was it yesterday that helped me get through? And then I would remember, oh, I heard that amazing song on the radio, and that reminded me of something dad and I did together. Or. Or I would find something. I found just a little note that my dad wrote to me when I was in college. I found it in a box somewhere and seeing his handwriting, and it was so touching to me, but it actually brought me joy. And that little moment was like one of those lifelines. And so I started just paying attention to all kinds of things that were happening. Oh, and another thing was a bird song. My dad loved the meadowlark. We grew up in Wyoming, and it's the state bird of Wyoming. And I would. From time to time, I would see a meadowlark or Hear a meadowlark sing. I started watching for those little things, those little tiny things a moment and like paying attention to the bird song and I'd hear the meadowlark. And that was one of my lifelines. Like, oh, there's dad. There's a. There's a connection with my dad. So when I started searching for the lifelines every day and just noticing and paying attention every day, there was something. Every day there was some kind of reminder that helped me feel connected to him and that those little things I felt like were just enough to keep me afloat. When it seemed like, oh, no, here comes the. Here comes the wave again. It's going to wash me under. But I would know there will be something. There'll be something I can hang on to that will, that will help me get afloat again.