Writing Free: Romance Author Jennifer Probst On A Long-Term Author Career

Summary

The Creative Penn Podcast for Writers

Episode 839: Writing Free – Romance Author Jennifer Probst on a Long-Term Author Career
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Jennifer Probst
Date: December 1, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Joanna Penn interviews bestselling romance author Jennifer Probst about building a sustainable, decades-long writing career. The discussion covers Jennifer’s persistent journey through rejection, her experiences in traditional and indie publishing, lessons learned from her viral breakout novel, business pivots, the value of diversification, utilizing Kickstarter, and the personal philosophy behind her new book Write Free. Both authors reflect on adaptability, creative freedom, and growing a body of work for the long term.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Journey and Perseverance

• Jennifer’s Start in Writing:

  • Knew she wanted to write since age 7.
  • Wrote her first YA romance at age 12, inspired by a box of romance novels from her dad ([22:51]).
  • Early writing years pre-internet meant little information or community; learned from Writer’s Digest and the local library.
  • Wrote “nonstop since I was 12 years old” ([22:51]).

• Persistence Through Rejection:

  • Papered the wall with rejection slips, framed it as a rite of passage rather than failure.
  • Quote: “When I got my first rejection, I looked at it as a rite of passage... Rather than taking the perspective of, does this mean I failed? ...Perspective is a really big thing in this career.” – Jennifer ([25:16])

Breakout Success & Realities

• Breakout with The Marriage Bargain:
  • Sent it to indie publisher Entangled; it went viral in 2012 and led to a traditional publishing deal with Simon & Schuster ([25:16]).
  • Book spent 26 weeks on the New York Times list, but this did not last.
  • Quote: “I was inundated with agents and the traditional publishers came knocking… And everybody was like, wow, you're this overnight sensation. And I'm like, not really.” – Jennifer ([25:16])
  • Sudden price increase by Simon & Schuster ended the book's bestseller run ([28:08]).
  • Importance of understanding the temporary nature of success and the need for continual adaptation.

Indie vs Traditional, and the Need to Pivot

• Diversification:

  • Always sought to work across traditional, indie, and small publishers for more control and security.
  • Quote: “If one bucket goes bad, I have two other buckets.” – Jennifer ([25:16])

• Shifting Industry and Resilience:

  • Discusses industry “gold rushes,” rapid shifts in genre trends, changes in marketing channels (e.g., Facebook ads, TikTok), and the imperative to pivot.
  • Quote: “The longer you're around, I feel like you learn how to pivot if you want this career, you learn how to write differently or whatever you need to do to keep going.” – Jennifer ([30:14])
  • Both Joanna and Jennifer emphasize multiple streams of income for career stability ([27:49]).

Pen Names, Speed, and Legacy

• Pen Names & Brand-Building Choices:

  • Observes the boom in rapid release and “throwaway” pen names, especially for hitting trends.
  • Prefers organic, legacy-driven growth over short-term churn: “Every single book is like my history… I want a legacy of quality, and… a long-term backlist supporting me.” – Jennifer ([32:56])

• Balance and Real Life:

  • Life circumstances (e.g., family, illness) affect writing pace.
  • Important to have a backlist that generates income passively during slow periods ([32:56]).

Adding Nonfiction to the Mix

• Origin of Her Nonfiction Writing:

  • Nonfiction began organically when she was compelled to “pour out” advice and reflections from her writing career ([36:19]).
  • First nonfiction, Write Naked, sold to Writer’s Digest (a full-circle moment).
  • Nonfiction income and marketing are very different—lower advance, but builds relationships over time.

• Personal Impact:

  • Vulnerable truth-telling in nonfiction generated strong reader connections: “Thank you for being vulnerable.”
  • Shifted to self-publishing later nonfiction books for better rights control after Writers Digest’s bankruptcy and acquisition ([40:30]).

Crowdfunding and Creative Business Models

• Kickstarter Experiences:

  • Used Kickstarter to:
    • Relaunch an older book after rights reversion.
    • Bundle a Kindle Vella serial into a deluxe hardcover.
    • Launch a writing course for authors ([42:03]).

• Lessons Learned:

  • Don’t expect your newsletter audience to automatically support new formats or higher-priced, bundled offers ([49:47]).
  • The importance of building a Kickstarter audience, cross-promotion, and networking.
  • Budget carefully; swag can be an unexpected expense.
  • Quote: “I could not understand… why my newsletter subscribers wouldn't do the Kickstarter… My newsletter audience wants nothing to do with my Kickstarter… You need to find your streams, your Kickstarter audience, which is ads.” – Jennifer ([49:47])

• Defining Success:

  • The value lies as much in project fulfillment and creative freedom as in financial goals: “Definition of success for us… is just being able to continue doing this, right?” – Joanna ([48:35])

Embracing Creative Freedom – The Philosophy Behind Write Free

• Write Free – What It Means:

  • Book is a deeply personal collection of essays on the evolution of a writing life.
  • Quote: “‘Write Free’ is being able to write your truth in whatever day that is… Your perspective changes, your life changes and things.” – Jennifer ([56:23])
  • Encourages showing up for your writing, whatever your stage in life.

• Finding Personal Freedom:

  • Addressing mental and emotional blocks is an ongoing process involving self-awareness, meditation, therapy, and knowing yourself.
  • Quote: “You just have to go slowly and find [the answers] and then the writing more free will come.” – Jennifer ([58:07])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “When I got my first rejection, I looked at it as a rite of passage that created me as a writer. Rather than taking the perspective of, does this mean I failed?” – Jennifer Probst ([25:16])
• “If one bucket goes bad, I have two other buckets.” – Jennifer Probst ([25:16])
• “The longer you're around, you learn how to pivot if you want this career… To me, that makes the industry exciting again.” – Jennifer Probst ([30:14])
• “Every single book is like my history... So I want a legacy of, of, of quality.” – Jennifer Probst ([32:56])
• “Write Free is an extremely personal book for me... It’s just me showing up for my writing life. And that’s what I wish for everybody.” – Jennifer Probst ([56:23])
• “Bravery. Just show up for yourself… Any kind of writing I think is therapeutic too.” – Jennifer Probst ([60:12])
• “The definition of success for us… is just being able to continue doing this, right?” – Joanna Penn ([48:35])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Jennifer’s Writing Origin Story: [22:51]
• Breakout Success and Nuances of ‘Overnight’ Fame: [25:16]
• Traditional vs Indie – Rights, Control, and Income Streams: [25:16] – [32:05]
• Pen Names & Career Longevity Philosophy: [32:56]
• On Writing Nonfiction and Full Circle with Writer’s Digest: [36:19] – [41:30]
• Kickstarter Experiences, Lessons, and Tips: [42:03] – [53:35]
• Newsletter Audience vs. Kickstarter Realities: [53:35]
• Defining and Achieving Creative Freedom – Write Free: [56:23]
• Advice for Overcoming Mental Blocks, Writing Free: [58:07]
• Jennifer’s Online Presence and Resources: [60:30]

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Where to Find Jennifer Probst

• Website: www.jenniferprobst.com – Comprehensive resource for both readers and writers; includes books, stories, videos, and resources.
• Social Media: Author Jennifer Probst on all major platforms.
• Open to Messages: Jennifer answers all emails and social media messages personally ([60:30]).

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Final Reflections

This episode offers valuable perspective for authors at any stage:

• The necessity of persistence through rejection.
• The reality of career highs and lows, and the impermanence of any single success.
• Embracing both traditional and indie options as viable and complementary.
• The importance of diversification—for income, creativity, and resilience.
• Consider crowdfunding as a flexible, creative option for launching books and courses.
• Building a body of work and a legacy—defining success as the ability to keep creating on your own terms.
• Approaching writing with authenticity, personal growth, and the courage to write “free.”

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For more episodes and show notes:
thecreativepenn.com/podcast

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives, I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 839 of the podcast and it is Saturday 29th November 2025 as I record this and of course it goes out on the 1st of December. Can you believe it? The countdown to 2026. In today's show I talked to romance author Jennifer Probst about how she fell in love with romance and persisted through decades of rejection and her breakout success and why it didn't last as well as traditional versus indie publishing diversification and building a long term writing career, pivoting into different business models and what writing free really means. So that's coming up in the interview section. In Writing and Publishing Things. Bookfunnel have announced their digital ebook signing functionality with a full article about it on their blog and I saw this demo at Author Nation and it's fantastic as we can now personalize ebooks signing them as we would print books and this is definitely something we could add to Kickstarter campaigns or selling direct for gifting and more. The article says authors who succeed build real human connections with their readers with digital ebook signing. Readers get a personalized digitally signed copy delivered to their inbox and book funnel library complete with your signature and custom message or tip in page and tippins in publishing are sort of. Well for example if you're a really big author you would just sign one page over and over again and then those pages would be tippins. They would be added to the book at the last minute and that's basically what this is. So yes, you could do this for so many things. You essentially choose the book to sign, add the optional tip in images like special art or launch material, then readers put in their name and email into the form. You sign it on a touchscreen or a tablet. You can adjust the color color that's added to the reader's specific ebook, which they then read in the Book Funnel app or send to Kindle or download for other devices. Now I think this is awesome. And of course the first thing I asked when I saw this demo was can we do this for audiobooks too? So I know that that's gone on the list. I would love to be able to record a special message to personalize an audiobook, but all very cool functionality that can help make readers feel more special and are definitely something I would use in my next Kickstart starter, although that is not planned as yet. Also, a question from Chris who emailed and this is quite timely. Of course I've been talking about discernment when it comes to evaluating vendors and there's lots of scams around at the moment. But Chris said you often say to check the terms and conditions when signing up for publishing services or anything like that, but I'm not really sure what I'm looking out for. Are there any particular red flags I should be aware of or is it dependent on each author's business aims? I wanted to mention this question from Chris because I wanted to apologise for taking for granted that you might know. So of course it is depending on your business goals, dependent on what stage you are at, as I talked about in that vendor choices on the solo episode of Author Nation. But if you find a company that you think is a good fit or that you intend to use and it might not be a publishing company, it might be, oh, let's even take Book Funnel. Book Funnel I think is a great company, but as I've mentioned before, if you're only writing your first book, it's not the time when you would start with Book Funnel because they're for people who have books. But if you find a company or a service and you check the terms and conditions, some of the things you're looking for are red flags around rights. For example, are you licensing your work? What are you licensing it for? Are you assigning or transferring copyright? Which of course can be a big red flag. You're looking at scope like what does the contract cover, what formats, what territories, what kind of work, what is the duration, how long is the term for? So for example some software companies you might just buy access for a month. What are you getting for a month? Some contracts for you know, if you're working with a publishing company it might be a lot longer. So term of copyright is definitely something to avoid unless it's a really good deal. Also, whether you're licensing non exclusively or exclusively. So for example if you are in KU you would have clicked the button for KDP select, which is your ebook exclusive with Amazon for 90 days. Or another example is the ACX exclusive term is 7 years. Now that is forever in this AI powered publishing environment. So when you're clicking and that's just a like a checkbox, so you definitely need to be aware of what you're agreeing to. And of course, it's not just a physical signature in this online environment, it's if you start using a service, you are usually subject to their terms and conditions. So definitely have a look at that. Now the other thing is, what is the. How do you get out of it? So what's the termination process? Is it something like I, this is why I like monthly services. I like to be able to go up and down. So one example for me would be 11 labs. So I am on the smallest level right now. And then when I have an audiobook to do, I take the monthly payment up to the level I need it to be for that month. So you don't need to do things, just forever. Look at the money. I've mentioned this before. Who pays who and when and how long is the contract for? So again, are you locked in for years for whatever you're buying? And I realize once this goes out, we're past the Black Friday thing, but I see so many people offering sort of lifetime membership of things. I just think lifetime access or whatever lifetime is, it's just not reality. So really have a look at things. And what I generally recommend is much of this terminology is written to, to be deathly boring and hard to work out. And so the human brain skips over it and it just frankly misses stuff. Which is why many of us, you know, like in Europe here we have the cookie banner. Nobody even thinks about that thing now. Everyone just clicks it like it's just not. It didn't achieve what it was meant to achieve, basically. But what I would recommend with any of these things is you would normally find a terms and conditions page which you can link to, or you can download it and ask ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, whatever your favorite model is, to explain it to you in simple terminology. And also to find any issues with it, just say, tell me what the issues are with these terms and conditions. Can you explain it as if I'm 13 or whatever? Because like I said, frankly, these pages are legalese that in many, many times are to confuse you deliberately. But a robot brain is much better for sifting through this kind of language. So I hope that helps. I hope that helps, Chris. But obviously it depends. But yeah, please remember, in era of subscription models and things, if you're using a service, you are subject to terms and conditions that you may or may not agree with. And certainly if you're signing any kind of publishing contract, you should definitely know what you're signing. And even if you have an agent. Please don't rely on them to explain a contract for you. You can do this yourself now, as well as working with them, of course, but ask your favourite model to explain it to you clause by clause. Also, on business things in general, you know, I've been getting a little bit annoyed lately as there is so much noise out there, so many offerings, so many companies, so many business models that I feel like it's become very confusing and the business basics have been lost in the noise. So rather than continue to be annoyed about it and expecting somebody else to teach you about business, I'm going to do a webinar on Business for Authors. Now. My book Business for Authors came out like in 2014 so it's quite old now. I mean it still does stand completely, but it's time I taught this as a coherent class. I haven't done that for a long time. So yeah, and just for context, I've been running my own businesses for 25 years. I set up my first business in the year 2000 and my failures before starting the Creative Pen Limited helped me shape this business to be a success. I have had some epic failures for sure. I left my job in 2011. Well that that was one of my businesses. I was an IT IT contractor and I've now been a multi six figure author with multiple streams of income every year since 2015. So a decade. So I will intend with this webinar to cut through the noise and help you level up your Author business in 2026. So you can join me live or you can get the replay if you have a ticket and you'll also get the slides and other material. I will not be selling that separately, it is only for ticket holders. I'll be giving the same webinar twice in January so it's the same one twice. So you don't need both tickets, you just need one. It will be Saturday the 10th of January or Saturday 24th of January. You can read more and find the links at thecreativepen.com live thecreativepenn.com live and patrons get 25% discount so check the Patreon site if you are a patron and if you're not a patron, joining will actually get you that discount. So yeah for like 2 bucks you can get a much bigger discount. So just keep that in mind if you would like to come to that webinar. More [e-mail] live on AI things I wanted to just mention the BBC and others report this week that Warner Music Group has signed a deal with AI music company Suno a year after it sued the company. As part of the settlement agreement struck between them, Warner will let users create AI generated music on Suno using the voices, names and likeness of artists who opt in to the program. Warner said the first of its kind partnership will open new frontiers in music creation while ensuring the creative community is compensated. So why am I telling you this? Because the music industry is usually a few years ahead of publishing in terms of adoption of business models. They were in streaming and subscription models before ebooks and audiobooks really got into subscriptions. And I would say it is likely that more publishers will come out with creative deals with AI companies even if they are suing them in the coming years. So the New Publishing Standard does a deeper dive into this, saying the music industry has collectively decided that negotiated partnerships beat courtroom gambles and argues that book publishing is actually in a weaker position than the music industry. The music industry is settling from a position of strength. Platforms need their irreplaceable content, they have billions in user engagement to monetize, and labels can credibly threaten litigation that might destroy business models. Book publishers are settling from a position of weakness. Courts have ruled training on legally obtained books constitutes fair use. And yes, remember that anthropic settlement is only for the pirated database, not the legally obtained books. Also, AI platforms can potentially generate commercially viable content without publisher participation, and fragmented industry structures limits coordinated negotiating power. There's also the difference in attitude and I think this is such a big deal. The New Publishing Standard says the music settlements aren't just about money, they're about ongoing partnership. Warner Music described the deal as a landmark pact that expands revenue and delivers new fan experiences, with Suno CEO promising new, more robust features for creation opportunities to collaborate and interact with some of the most talented musicians in the world. These are forward looking business relationships, not merely compensation for past wrongs. And as ever, this is how I think we need to think in publishing. New ways to create new revenue opportunities, new collaboration possibilities, looking forward rather than back. And anyone who is being tied to the way things used to be I feel is being held back from the positive future. So it's a really in depth article. As ever, I absolutely recommend thenewpublishing standard.com, link in the show notes and in this positive vein about what AI partnerships and collaboration and possibility might look like. I enjoyed an article this week by Melissa Storm on RussellNulty's theauthorstack.com called the Golden Age of Weird is here. So I definitely want you to read it in full and I will just quote some of it. Melissa says. I've been waiting my whole life for this moment. I just didn't know it would look like this. When people talk about the AI revolution, they tend to focus on what might disappear. Jobs, skills, stability, maybe even the idea of what it means to be a creator. The headlines make the world feel like it's cracking open, and not always in a good way. But if you sit where I sit, if you watch what I watch every single day across thousands of ad sets, publishing tools, reader behaviors, algorithm shifts, and creative breakthroughs, you start to see a different story. A better one, a hopeful one. Something extraordinary is happening and I want you to feel it too. And she goes on. It is an excellent article, but I'll pick out this bit as well. This is the first time in human history where deeply quirky, niche, highly individual work has an easier path to the right audience than the broad, generic please like me work that used to dominate publishing. It feels like a gift. It feels like justice. It feels like the world finally figured out that being different isn't a glitch. In fact, it's the whole effin point. People say algorithms are cold, but they haven't met these new ones. This new generation is something else, something almost intuitive, something that knows where your creative fingerprint belongs to things. I've always believed that niche is power, but now we have proof. The old systems are crumbling. The old rules are fading. The new era belongs to the weird, the tender, the curious, the neurodivergent, the joyful misfits, the artists who don't fit inside neat little boxes, and the creators who once thought they were too much or too little. This is your moment. As I said, I really like this article. I love the energy of it. I love the weirdness. And I've talked about this for a while. About how excited I am about the prospect of AI generated search and how this long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long tale is finally here. And it certainly sums up how I feel too. It's going to be a much better time for those of us who write what we love have never fitted into anyone else's boxes or categories or keywords. I' are too so that is Melissa Storm on the author stack, which is Russell Nolte's substack link in the show notes. Melissa also has two Kickstarters right now, one for Facebook ads and one for a weird, cosy fantasy novel with a neurodivergent gnome, a sentient wheel of cheese and the divine chaos that explodes when a quiet wish finally gets heard. So I think that shows Melissa is definitely in the long tail for her weird cosy fantasy and she uses the word weird weird. I'm not the one using that word, but I like that word. I feel like it might have had a bit of negative connotations back in the day, but now I think we can certainly claim that. So thanks Melissa and Russell, and thanks to you for your emails and comments and photos. This week RS Hampton sent a photo a picture of a harbor in the sun with high rise apartments saying floating between Istanbul and Miami. I listen to your podcast on my morning walks. So good morning from Miami and I was wondering if that is Istanbul as in Turkey Istanbul all the way to Miami, usa. That's quite a. That's quite a float. I imagine sailing that took a while, but very cool. And then on my Author Nation solo episode, Julia left a comment saying, this is one of the best things I've read in a long time in this author business. My personal life has had a profound impact on my Author business since 2020 and many of the themes in resonate deeply. A lot of conventional wisdom got thrown out the window for me. Thanks for the kind words, Julia. And also a reminder that many people read the transcript of the podcast, which is very cool. I like being able to have stuff available for people in different accessible ways. But yes, for sure. I think Julia and I met. I think it must have been a decade ago now at a particular conference. And things change. I mean, as I discussed today with Jennifer Probes, the longer you are in a business, the longer you're in any business. The longer you're in a relationship, the longer you're in a job, the longer you live, things happen and we all have to pivot and change along the way. Also thanks to Debray who said, I usually listen to you from Haarlem, the Netherlands, but I've also spent many hours walking the French countryside listening to your podcast and books. On one such walk, I was drawn into a graveyard at Saint Symphorien de La. That's a lovely name. And a series of events unfolded that has led to me publishing an old family family memoir. Wonderful. And also thanks to Andre who sent me pictures from the crypt of the Capuchin Convent in Rome where they went for a concert. Awesome bone art. I love skeletons dressed as monks. I think they're very cool. Just my kind of thing. I also love that you thought of me there. I feel like I have some mind share amongst you all for these kind of slightly creepy macabre places. So thank you so much. And obviously if that's your kind of thing too, check out my thrift store Gorilla Crypt of Bone inspired by places like that and also Tomb of Relics. They are not Christmas stories, let's be clear. Ah so please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes atthecreative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. You can also email me, send me pictures of where you're listening or your favorite cemetery, crypt or death culture place. Joannathecreativepenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation this episode is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, Kobo's free, fast and easy self publishing platform favoured by independent authors all over the world. KWL was built by authors for authors and their mission is to help you reach digital readers wherever they are, however they want to read. Looking for a way to get your books into the hands of more readers? Kobo plus is the answer. As a subscription service, Kobo plus allows readers to discover and enjoy unlimited books for a monthly fee, and as an author, there's no exclusivity or time limitation. It is a win win. So just dropping out of the ad there. This is what we mean by the terms and conditions with something like Kobo plus. You can tick it knowing that there's no exclusivity. So you can also sell direct for example. And there's no time limitation. So if you want to change your mind later, you can just untick the box. By enrolling your titles in Kobo plus through Kobo Writing Life, you can increase your earnings by reaching a whole new audience. Avid readers who are eagerly looking to discover their next favourite book. Sign up [e-mail] kwl and see your readership grow. And yes, you can get all my books on Kobo plus. Wherever you are in the world, I love a subscription program that does not require exclusivity. So that is thecreativepenn.com KWL this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] thecreative pen thanks to the five new patrons who've joined this week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering writing, craft, author business, AI tutorials and more. This week I did the audio Q and A for patrons which was like an hour long extra solo show where I answer questions and also I gave patrons the 25% off coupon for the Business for Authors website webinar. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-T-R-E-O-N.com forward/the creative pen. And in fact, we're having our last live office hours next week as this goes out. So if you're a patron, you can come and join me for that. Right? Let's get into the main section of the show Show. Jennifer Probst is a New York Times, USA Today and Wall Street Journal best selling author of over 60 books across different kinds of romance as well as non fiction for writers. Her latest book is right Free. So welcome Jennifer.

[B]

Thanks so much, Joanna. I am kind of fangirling. I'm really excited to be on the Creative Pen podcast. It's kind of a bucket list.

[A]

Oh, that's exciting. I reached out to you after your recent Kickstarter and we're going to come back to that in a minute. But first up, take us back in time. Tell us a bit more about how you got into writing and publishing.

[B]

Oh, this one is easy for me. I am one of those rarities, I think, that I knew when I was seven that I was going to write. Seven years old, I just didn't know what I was going to write. And at 12 years old and now this will kind of date me in dinosaur era here. But there was no Internet, no information on how to be a writer, no connections out there. So the only game in town was Writer's Digest, where I would go to my library and kind of pour over the Writer's Digest of how to be a writer. And at 12 years old, all I knew was, oh, if I want to be a famous writer, I have to write a book. So I literally sat down at 12 and wrote my first young adult romance. Of course, I was the star, as we all are when we're young. And I have not stopped since. I always knew since my dad came home from a library with a box of romance novels and got in trouble with my mom and said, basically she's reading everything anyway, just let her read these. I was gone. From that moment on, I knew that my entire life was going to be about that. So for me, it wasn't the writing. I have written nonstop since I was 12 years old. For me, it was more about making this a career where I can make money. Because I think there was a good 30 years where I wrote with not a penny to myself name. So it was more of a different journey for me. It was more of trying to find my way in. In the writing world where everybody said it should be just a hobby and I believed that it should be something more.

[A]

I was literally just going back in my head there to the library I used to go to on my way home from school. Sim. Probably early teens, you know, maybe age 14. And it going to that section and like, I think it was Shirley Conron. Was that the Lady? Lace. Lace books. That's literally how we all learned about sex back in the day.

[B]

Gone for books. You didn't need parents, you didn't need friends. Amazing.

[A]

Oh, those were the days that. That was. Must have been the 80s, right?

[B]

It was the 80s. Yeah, yeah, the 70s. 80s. But mostly like. Yes, right. Right around in the 80s. Oh, yeah.

[A]

I. I got lost about then because I was. I was reminiscing because I was also the same one kind of the library and people didn't really see what you were reading in the corner of the Libra. I think that's quite funny. But. So tell us how you got into being an indie.

[B]

So what had happened is I had this manuscript and it had been shopped around New York for agents and for a bunch of publishers. And it kept saying, you know, I kept getting the same exact thing. I love your voice. And this was like. I mean, Joanna, when you talk about, like, papering your wall with rejections, I lived that. The only thing I can say is that when I got my first rejection, I looked at it as a rite of passage that created me as a writer. Rather than taking the perspective of this mean I failed. To me, I think perspective is a really big thing in this career and how you can look at things. So that really helped me. But after you get like 75 of them, you're like, I don't know how much long I could take of this. What had happened is it was an interesting story because I had gone to an RWA conference and I had shopped this everywhere. Everywhere. This book that I just kept coming back to and I kept saying, I feel like this book, it could be big. And there was an indie publisher there. They had just started out. It was an indie publisher called Entangled. And a lot of my friends were like, what about Entangled? You know, why don't you try, like, more digital things? Or more indie publishers coming up rather than like the big traditional ones. So lo and behold, I sent it out. They loved the book. They decided February of 2012 to submit it out. It was their big debut. They were kind of competing with Harlequin, but it was going to be a new digital line. It was like this new cutting thing. And the book went crazy and it went viral. The book was called the Marriage Bargain and it put me on the map. All of a sudden I was inundated with agents and the traditional publishers came knocking and they wanted to buy the series. Series. And it was everywhere. And then it hit USA Today and then it spent 26 weeks on the New York Times and everybody was like, wow, you're this overnight sensation. And I'm like, not really. So that was kind of like my leeway into now. We ended up selling that series to Simon and Schuster because that was the smart move for now because it kind of blew up in an indie publisher at that time. New, New. It was a lot to take on. But from then on my goal was always to do both, to have a traditional contract. I love working with indie publishers and I love doing my own self pub because I felt even back then the more diversified I am, the more control I have. If one bucket goes bad, I have two other buckets.

[A]

Yeah. I mean I always say multiple streams of income. It's so surprising to me that people, people think that whatever it is that hits big is going to continue. So you obviously experience there a massive high point, but it doesn't continue like you had all those weeks. Amazing. But then that's. It drops off, right?

[B]

Oh my goodness. Yeah. So great story after what happened. So 26 weeks on the New York Times. Right. And it was selling like hotcakes. And then Simon and Schuster took it over and they bumped the price to their usual like ebook, which was like what, 12.99 or something going from 299. That is the day that they did it. I slid off. All the bestseller lists were gone. And I lost a lot of control too because with indies you have a little bit more of a thing. But again, that kind of funnels me into a completely different kind of of set. Traditional is very different from indie or whatever. But what you touched on, I think is the biggest thing in the industry right now is when things are hot and things feel like forever. I learned a valuable lesson. Doesn't continue you. It just doesn't. I mean maybe some. I don't know if Danielle Steele or some of the other big ones ever had had to do a pivot. But I feel like in romance, you know, it's very fluid. You have genres hitting big, you have niches hitting big, authors hitting big. And yes, I see some of them stay. Like, I see Emily Henry still staying. Maybe she's. Maybe that will never pause. But I think more of the majority find themselves. Okay, that's done now. And what's next? And it can either hit or not hit. Does that make sense to you? Do you feel the same?

[A]

Yeah. And I guess it's not just, I mean, about the book or it's more that the. The tactic. I mean, you mentioned they're the genres and they do switch a lot in romance, like, a lot faster than other genres. But in terms of just how we, for example, how we do marketing or, I mean, now, obviously, as we record this, TikTok still a thing, and we can see maybe generative AI search coming on the horizon and agentic buying. But a decade ago, it might have been different, like more Facebook ads or whatever. And then before that, it might have been something else. So there's always things changing along the way.

[B]

Yeah, there. There definitely is. I mean, and it is a very oversaturated market. They talk about. I don't know if it's like 2010-20, 2016, maybe about. Of like the gold rush, because that was where you can make a lot of money as an indie. And then we saw the total fallout of so many different things. And I feel like I've gone through so many ups and downs in the industry, but I do love it because the longer you're around, I feel like you learn how to pivot if you want this career, you learn how to write differently or whatever. Whatever. Whatever you need to do to keep going. You know what I mean? In different aspects with the changes. To me, that makes the industry exciting again. I feel perspective is a big thing, but I have had to take a year to kind of rebuild when I was out of contract with a lot of things. And I've had to say, okay, what do you see on the horizon now? Where is the new foundation? Where do you want to restart? And maybe, maybe, like sometimes it takes a year or two to be like, maybe I won't be making big income and I cut back. But then you're back in it because again, it takes a while maybe to write a few new books or whatever, or write a pen name or however you want to pivot your way back into the industry or like you were saying, diversifying. And I did a lot of Nonfiction stuff, because that's a big thing for my calling. And so I put that into the primary for a while. So I, I think, I think it's important for authors to maybe not just have one thing and when that one thing goes away, you're scrambling. It's good to have a couple of different things that you. Well, okay, this genre is dead or this thing is dead, or this isn't making money. Let me go to this for a little while until I see new things on the horizon.

[A]

Yeah, a couple of things I want to come back to. But just on the, you mentioned a pen name there. And one of the things I'm seeing a lot right now, I mean it's always gone on, but it seems to be on overdrive is people doing rapid release throwaway pen names. So they're almost, you know, there's a new sub genre, say people write the books really fast, they put them up under it, whatever pen name, and then when that goes away, they ditch that pen name altogether. And versus growing a name brand more slowly, like I think you and I, I have, have done and we put out different books under like under my JF pen fiction brand. I put lots of different genres under that. So what are your thoughts on this sort of throwaway pen name versus growing a name brand more slowly?

[B]

Well, okay, the first thing I'm going to say is if that lights people up, if you love the idea of rapid release and like just kind of shedding your skin and going on to the next one, I say go for it. You know what I mean? If that is your thing, as long as you're not pumping it out with AI, so it's a complete AI, like that's a different topic. Do you know what I mean? I'm so like. But if you can. I'm not saying with. I am seeing a completely AI book. So that's the difference. Like not, you know, plenty of people use maybe AI to help write the book or whatever. But if, if we're talking about just an author like going in and like, okay, every four weeks writing a book and stuff like, like that. I do eventually think that anything in life that disturbs you, you're going to burn out eventually. That is a limited time kind of thing, I believe. I don't know how long you can keep doing that and creating decent enough books or make a living on it. But again, I really try not to judge because I am very open to if that gives you joy and that's working and it brings your family money, like go for for it. But I have always been wanting to be a writer for long term. I want my work to be my legacy. I don't just pump out books. Every single book is like my history. It's a marking of what I thought, what I put out in the world, what my beliefs are, what my story is. So it marks different things and I'm very proud of that. So I want a legacy of, of, of quality. And I also, as I got older now in my 20s and 30s, I was able to books a lot faster. Then I had a family with two kids and then I had to slow down a little bit. I also think life kind of sometimes can drive your career and that's okay if you're taking care of a sick parent or there's illness or whatever, maybe you need to slow down. But I like the idea of a long term backlist supporting me when I need to take a backseat and not do front list things. So that's how I feel. I will always say choose a long organic growth type of career that will be there for you and your backlist and can support you. But I also don't want to trash people who like, if that is like how you can do it, if you can write a book in a month and keep doing it and being quality, go for it.

[A]

Yeah, I, I do have the word legacy on my board next to me. But I also have create a body of work I'm proud, proud of. And so I have that next to me and I have. Have you made art today? And so I think about these things too. And, and again, as you say, I think people, people feel differently about work in a different way. And I will do other work to make faster cash, I guess. Yes. Rather than do that with books. But, but as we said, that's all good. I mean, interestingly, you mentioned nonfiction there, right? Free is your latest one, but you've got some other writing books. So maybe talk about how the difference between non fiction book income and marketing is compared to fiction and why you added that in.

[B]

Yes, it's completely different. I mean it's two new dinosaurs. But I came to writing nonfiction in a very strange way. Literally I woke up on New Year's day day and I was on a romance book deadline and I could not, when I tell you my brain was filled with passages of teaching writing of things I wanted to share in my writing career because again, I've been writing Since I was 12, I've been a non stop writer for like over 30 years. And I got to my computer and I wrote, like, three chapters of Write Free, and it was just pouring out of me. And so I contacted my agent and I said, look, I don't know. This is what I want to do. I. I want to write this nonfiction book. And she's like, what are you talking about? You're on this road. You're a romance author. You're on a romance deadline. What do you want me to do with this? She was so confused. And I said, yeah, how do you write a nonfiction book proposal? And she was just like, this is not good, Jen. What are you doing? So anyway, the funny story was she says, just send me chapters. I mean, God bless her. She was wonderful agent, but I know she didn't get it. So anyway, I sent her, like, four chapters of what I was writing, and she called me. I'll never forget, she called me on the phone and she goes, this is some of this best stuff I have ever read in my life. And it's raw and it's truthful, and we've got to find a publisher for this. And I was like, yay. So what happened was, I believe this was one of my most beautiful full circles in life. Writer's Digest actually made me an offer, and it was not about the money. I found that nonfiction, for me, the writing was much lower advanced and a different type of sales. But for me, when I was. That is exactly. I was in the library looking up Writer's Digest. I would save my allowance to get the magazine. I would say to myself, one day, maybe I will be. I will have a book by Writer's Digest. So for me, it was one of the biggest full circle moments. I will never forget it. So being published by them was amazing. And then I thought I was one and done. And the book just completely touched so many writers. I have never gotten so many emails about thank you for. For saying the truth, or thank you for being vulnerable. Now, right before it would publish, I had a panic attack. I told my husband, now everybody's going to know that I am, like, a mess and I'm not fabulous, and the world is going to know my craziness. But by being vulnerable about the career and also that it was specifically for romance authors, you know what I mean? It caused a bond. I think it caused some trust. And I had been writing about writing for years. And then after that, I thought it was a one and done. And then a few years later, I think it was two, three years later, I was like, no, I have more to say. So I kind of leaned in to my nonfiction thing and it also gives my fiction brain a rest because when you're doing nonfiction, you're using a different part of your brain for it. So it's a way for me to cleanse my palette and also I gather more experiences about what I want to share and then that goes into, into the next book.

[A]

Yeah. I also use the phrase palette cleanser for non fiction versus fiction. I feel like they are. You write one and then you feel like, oh, I really need to write the other now.

[B]

Yes. Isn't it wonderful? I love that. I love brains and just giving one a break and like totally leaning into it. And again, like it's another way of income. It's another way. I also believe, believe that this industry has given me so much that it's just automatic that I want to give it back. I just want to give as much as possible back because I'm so passionate about writing and the industry field.

[A]

Well, interestingly though, Writers Digest publisher, the publisher who published that magazine and other things went bankrupt. Right. In 29 2019. So and this is, I mean you've been in publishing a long time. It is not uncommon common for publishers to go out of business or to get bought or things happen with publishers. Right. So what then happened with.

[B]

So Penguin Random House bought it. We. So all the Writers Digest authors did not know what they were going to do and then Penguin Random House bought it and kept Writer's Digest completely separate. Like so it's an umbrella. So Writer's Digest really hasn't changed. They still have the magazine. They still have books. They still have. Still have. So it ended up being okay. But what I did do is because I didn't because I sold right naked. And I have no regrets about that. It was the best thing for me to do is, is go that route. The second and the third book were self published. I decided I'm going to self publish it. That way I have the rights for audio, I have the rights for myself. I can do a whole bunch of different things. So. Right. True. The second one was self published writers inspiring writers. I paired up with some somebody. So we self publish that and write free. My newest one is self published. So I have, I've decided to go that route now with my non fiction.

[A]

Well so as I said, I noticed your Kickstarter and although I feel like I because I don't write romance, I'm not really in that community. I, I had kind of heard your name before but this was when I sort of, I, I bought the book and joined the Kickstarter and that was like. And then I discovered that you've been doing so much and I was like, oh, how, how, why haven't we connected before? But it's very cool. So tell us about the Kickstarters you've done and what you know, because you've done, I think a fiction one as well. Like what are your thoughts and tips around Kickstarter?

[B]

Yes. So when I was taking that year I found myself kind of like, let's just say fired from a lot of different publishers at the time. And that was okay because like I had had contracts that ran out and when I look to be like okay, do we want to go back? It just wasn't looking good. And I was like, well, I don't want to spend a year if I'm not going to be making the money anyway. So I looked at like the landscape and I said it's time to really pull in and do a lot of more things on my own. But I've got to build foundations. And so Kickstarter was one of them. I took a course with Russell Nolte and Monica Leonel. They did a Kickstarter, they had a big course for Kickstarter and they were really the ones that were going around to all of the conference that is and basically saying, hey guys, you're missing out on a lot of, of of publishing things here because publishing was getting good. So I took the course because I like to dive into things but I also, I want to know the foundation of it. I want to know what I'm doing. I'm not one to just kind of like when it comes to tech. So what happened is the first one I had rights coming back from a book. After 10 years my rights came back, it was an older book and I said, you know what, I am going to dip my foot in and see what kind of base can I grow there, what can I do. And so I used it. I was going to get a new cover, do new scenes, re release it anyway, right. And I said let's do a Kickstarter for it because then I can get paid for all of that money. So it wonder it worked out so fantastic because it made just enough for my goal. I knew I didn't want to make a killing. I knew I wanted to make a fund. I made my $5,000 which I thought was wonderful and I was able to re release it with like a new cover in a large print hardcover. I added some scenes, I was able to like, I did like a 10 year anniversary re release like for My fans. So I made it, like, very fan friendly, grew my audience, and I was like, this was great. And then the next year, what had happened is I did something completely different. I was doing the Kindle Vella back in the days that was I.

[A]

When where you.

[B]

You dropped a chapter. Okay. So what I did is I said, I want to do this completely different kind of thing that was very. Not my brand at all. It was like very reality tv, young college students living in the city, very sexy, very angsty love triangles, messy. Everything I was not known for. And again, I was like, I'm not doing a pen name because this is just me. And I funnel my audience. And I said, what I'm going to do is I'm going to start with doing a chapter a week through Kindle Vella and make money there. And then I'm going, when it's done, I'm going to bundle it all up and I'm going to make, like a book out of it. So I did a year of Kindle Vella. It was the best decision I made because I just did two chapters a week, which I was able to do. And then by one year, I had like 180,000 words. I had had like two to three books in there. And I did it as a hardcover deluxe. The only place that you can get it in print. Because Vella closed, Vel went down. So I was like, great, I'm gonna do this Kickstarter for this entire new thing. I partnered with Influence. They do very well helping you partner with, like, special editions, because that was a whole other. Oh, Joanna. That was like a whole other thing that you have to, like, go into getting the books and getting the art and getting the swag and. And I felt like I needed some things for that. So again, I went in, I funded. I did not do a killing on that, but that was okay. I learned some things that I would have changed with my Kickstarter. And I also built in a new audience for that. I have a lot of extra books that I then sold in my store. And it was another, like, just another place to make money. And then the third Kickstarter I use specifically, I had always wanted to do do a writing course. I go all over the world. I do keynotes, I do workshops. I've done books. And I wanted to reach new readers. But, like, I don't travel a lot. I mean, new writers and I didn't travel a lot. So I came up with the concept that I was going to do my very first course, and it was Going to be a very personal kind of like me talking to them almost like in a keynote. Like you're in a room with a keynote. So I gathered a whole bunch of stuff and I used Kickstarter to help me A fund it and B, make myself do it because it was two years in the making and I always was like, oh, I've got this other thing to do. This. You know how we do that? Right. We have project. So I use Kickstarter kind of like as a deadline and I decided to launch it in the summer. And what I did in in addition to that is I took years of my posts from all over and I copied and paste it, did new post and I created Right Free which was a very personal essay like driven thing. So I took it all together. So I took a couple of months to do this and I filmed the course and the Kickstarter did better than I have ever imagined. I got quadruple what I wanted and it literally financed all the video editing, the books, everything that I needed, plus extra. So I feel like I'm growing in Kickstarter. I hope I'm not ranting like I'm trying to go over things that can.

[A]

Help people but like that is super useful.

[B]

Yeah. I mean you can use it like as you don't have to go all in and say if it doesn't fund, it's over or I need to make $20,000. There's are people making so much money and there's people that will do a project a year or two projects a year and just get enough to maybe fund a new thing that they wanted to do. So yeah, that's how I've done it.

[A]

Yeah. And I've done quite a few now and my non fiction ones have been a lot bigger and I have a big audience there and my fiction have been all over the place and. But what I like about Kickstarter is, is that you can do these different things. We can do these special editions. I've just done a sprayed edge short story collection. You know, really not. Short story collections are not like the biggest genre.

[B]

Yes, yes. I love short stories too. I feel like it's a. Oh my God. I have. I've always wanted to do like an anthology of all my short stories.

[A]

Well, there you go.

[B]

Many. Yes. I love that for your Kickstarter. Love it.

[A]

Yeah. Well, because when I turned 50 earlier this year I was like, I've. The thing that is not in print are my short stories. They are out there digitally and so that's why I Wanted to do it. And I feel like Kickstarter is a really good way to do these creative projects. Like as you say, you don't have to make a ton of money but at the end of day, the, the day like the definition of success for us, I think for both of us as well is just being able to continue doing this, right?

[B]

Absolutely. This is funding a creative full time career. And every single thing that you do with your content is like a funnel. So the more funnels that you have, I just think that you have a bigger and especially if you love it. Like it would be different if I was like, oh my goodness, like I'm struggling. Do I get an editor job? I would hate being an editor. But like if you look at something else like oh yeah, but I could do this and I'd really like that would light me up. Like do a course like that. Wow, that sounds amazing. So it's kind of like finding your alternates maybe that also light you up.

[A]

So were there any mistakes in your Kickstarters that you think are worth sharing in case people are thinking about.

[B]

Yes. I mean it's so many. One being that I felt like I was a failure if I didn't make a certain amount of money because my name is pretty well known. You know what I mean? I. It's not like I'm new and I'm looking. So I, one of the big things that I did is I could not understand. I felt like I was banging my head against the wall. While my newsletter subscribers wouldn't like do the Kickstarter, I'm like, why aren't you doing this? I'm supposed to have thousands of people that just back like your expectations. And then I started to learn whole oh my God. My, my newsletter audience wants nothing to do with my kick Kickstarter. Like maybe I had like a handful. So then I learned what I needed. Longer tales like putting it up for the pre order way ahead of time, you know what I mean? And also going don't just like announce it in your newsletter and feel like everybody's going to go there. You need to find your streams, your Kickstarter audience, which is ads. And I had never done ads either and I didn't know how to do that so I did that all wrong. So like being more. I joined the Facebook group about I didn't do that in the first one. Then I learned it doing the. You share the backer updates. So when you, every time you go into your audience with a backer update, you. There's this whole Community where you can share with like minded people with their projects and you post it under your updates and it does your cross networking and sharing with a lot of authors like in their newsletters. So for the right free one I think also, also honestly to such a great thing by using my networking I leaned into that a lot and the first and second I really didn't as much. I think I thought more people would come and then I didn't have to work as hard. So yes, all of that is and also the time, the time and I think a lot of authors can get super excited about the back end of SWAG and stuff like that. I love, love that. But I learned that I could have pulled back a little bit and been smarter with my financials. You know what I mean? I did things that I, I was passionate about, but I probably spent much more money on SWAG than I needed to. So kind of like looking at like different aspects of it to make it and I think each time you do one you learn like what works best. I leaned into my connections a lot using other authors, newsletter letters, people in the industry to share my Kickstarter and this was better for me than just relying on my own fan base that I feel like that made a big difference in my Kickstarters. So definitely more networking, more sharing, getting it out on different platforms rather than just doing your, your own narrow. Because a lot of the times you think that your audience will follow you into certain things that you they don't and that needs to be like, okay, so those are definitely some of the things that I learned. And as usual, I think every time I'm patient with myself, I don't get mad at myself for trying things and failing. I think failing is spectacular because I learned something I know. Did what? What? Do I want to do this again? Do I want to do it differently? And I think that if we weren't so afraid of like failing quote in public, I think we would do more things. And I mean I'm not saying that I don't like oh my God, that was so embarrassing. I hardly funded and this person is getting 100,000. You know that we're human, we are human. We compare. I mean I have my own reset that I do, but I really try to be like, but no, like for me, like maybe I'll, I'll do this and then if it doesn't work, that's okay.

[A]

I really like that you shared about the email list there because I feel, feel like too many people who have spent years driving people to Kindle or ku, you know that, and have built an email list of readers who like a particular format at a particular price. And then we're saying, oh, now come over here and buy a beautiful hardback that's like 10 times the price. And then we're surprised when nobody does it. So.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What happened?

[B]

I think. Well, also, it was. So my list is also. That was like, a nonfiction one. So I had to kind of funnel where my writers were in my newsletter. And I have mostly readers. So I. I was like, okay, but I think you're exactly right. They. First of all, it was the platform. When you ask anybody to go off of a platform, whether it's by direct at your Shopify store, go to Kickstarter, you're going to lose the majority right there. People are like, no, I want to click a button from your newsletter and go to a site that I know. And so you've got that. That you've got to train them, and that can take some time. And then you've got this project where people are like, I don't understand. I mean, even my mom, she was like, I would love to support you, honey, but what the heck is this?

[A]

Yeah, where's the buy button? And where's my book?

[B]

Yes. And my women's fiction books, have they. They tend to have, like, some older. You know, I have, like, a whole pocket of, like, older readers who are like, hell, no, I don't know what this is. So I think you just have to know your audience, and if it's not translating, train them. I did a couple of videos where I said, look, I want to show you how easy this is. And I showed them directly how to go in, how to back. I did that with Kindle Vella, too. I did a video for my newsletter and on social. Hey, do you not know how to read this chapter? So sometimes there's a barrier with that. And like you said, Joanna, like, if I have a majority that just wants sexy, contemporary, and I'm dropping angsty, cheating, forbidden love, like, like, they're like, oh, no, that's not for me. So you have to know that there's a crossover. But I go into my business that's already baked into my expectations. I don't go in thinking I'm going to make a killing, and then I'm more surprised, and then I can build it.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And also, if you're, like, both of us writing across genres, then you're always going to split your audience. Like, people just do not necessarily buy everything because they have their Preferences. So, yeah, I think that's great. Now we're almost out of time, but this latest book is Right Free. So I wondered if you would maybe say, what. What does Right Free mean to you? And what might it help the listeners with?

[B]

Right Free is an extremely personal book for me. And the title was, like, really important because it goes with Right Naked, Right true, and Write Free. And these are the ways that I believe that a writer should always show up to the page. And freedom is being able to write your truth in whatever day that is. You're going to be a different writer when you're young and maybe hormonal and passionate and having love affairs. You're going to write differently. Maybe when you're a mom with kids in diapers, you're going to write differently when you're maybe in your 40s and you're killing your career and this is all your perspective changes, your life changes and things. So Right Free is literally a collection of essays all through my 30 years of life. It's very personal. It shows. There's essays, oh, I'm writing my 53rd book right now. There's essays. My kids are in front of spongebob, and I'm trying to write right now. There is, you know, I got another rejection letter, and I don't know how to survive. It is literally an imprint of essays that you can dip in and dip out of. It's easy, short, inspirational, and it's just me showing up for my writing life. And that's what I wish for everybody, that they can show up for their writing life in the best way that they can at the time, because that changes all the time.

[A]

But then if people. So we can say, Right Free. We've got a lot of experience at writing. And I feel like when I started writing, I was an IT consultant. I literally couldn't. I couldn't write anything creative. I didn't believe I could. And there'll be people listening who were just like, well, you know, Jennifer, I can't write free. I'm not free. My mind is shackled by all the. These expectations and everything. So how can they release it and. And aim for more freedom?

[B]

I love that question so much. And the thing is, is that I've spent so many years, like, working on that part. That doesn't come overnight. I think sometimes when you have more clarification of, okay, this is really limiting me, then when you can kind of, like, see if there's something limiting, then at least you can look for answers. My answers came in the form of Meditation. Meditation is a very big thing in my life. Perspective, changing my perspective. Learning kind of life mottos to kind of like help me deal with those kind of limitations. Learning that when I write a sex scene, it's. I can't care about my elderly aunt who tells my mother, dear God, she ruined the family name. Like it is. It is a responsibility for you to figure out like where these limitations are and then slowly see how you can remove them. I've been in therapy. I have read hundreds of self help books. I take meditation courses, I take workshop courses. I've done Clifton Strengths with Becca Sime therapy. I don't even know if that's therapy. It's not. It feels like therapy to me as a right knowing my personality traits. I've done enneagram work with Claire Taylor who has been like no. The more you know yourself and how your brain is showing up for yourself, the more you can grab tools to use them. So I wish I could say yes, if everybody meditates 30 minutes a day, you're going to have all blocks. But it's so personal that it's a trick question. But like if you, if everybody started today and said where is my biggest limitation? And be real with, with yourself. There's answers out there. You just have to like go slowly and find them and then the writing more free will come. So I, I hope that that wasn't one of those woo woo answers but I really do believe it.

[A]

Yeah, no, I agree. It just takes time and like our writing career, it just takes time. Keep working on it, keep writing. Yeah.

[B]

And bravery, right? Like a lot of bravery. Just show up for yourself. Like how, however, like you don't even have to go in and if it's right free, it's like journal for yourself and put it in a locked drawer. Any kind of writing I think is, is therapeutic too.

[A]

Brilliant. So where can people find you and your books and everything you do online?

[B]

The best place to go to is my website. It is, I treat it like my home. It's www.jenniferprops.com. there is so much on it. Not just books, not just free content and free stories. There's an entire section just for writers. There's videos on there. There's a lot of resources. I keep it up to date and it is the place where you can find me. And of course I'm everywhere on social media. Author Jennifer Probst. You can find me anywhere. And I always tell everybody, I answer my messages, I answer my emails. That is really important to me. So if you heard this podcast and you want to reach out on anything, please do. I will answer.

[A]

Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Jennifer. That was great.

[B]

Thanks for having me, Joanna.

[A]

So I hope you found the interview with Jennifer interesting, and I love that she just keeps writing and pivoting and trying new things, adding new income streams, retiring others. And that is exactly the attitude. If you want to do this for the long term, as ever, please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on their YouTube YouTube channel. Or email me joannathecreativepenn.com and remember, this is my email joannathecreativepenn dot com if you get one of those scam emails because they're still going around and it's not from that address. You know it's not me. Also, please send me pictures of where you're listening or your favorite cemetery or churchyard. And remember, check out my live webinars on business for [e-mail] livelihood thecreativepenn.com live Next Monday I'm talking about two different approaches to selling direct with Sasha Black, who also writes as Ruby Rowe, and we're good friends, so you'll be able to listen in on us having a good chat and no doubt laughing a lot and also being very clear about what kinds of direct sales are worth doing at what stage of your author business. And our tips for how we both do it vary differently. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] blueprint. If you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and x hecreative pen or on Instagram and Facebook at jfpenauthor. Happy writing and I'll see you next time.