Natalie Maclean (14:35)

Natalie Maclean is a multi award winning wine writer, named World's Best Drinks Writer at the World Food Media Awards as well as a sommelier, TV wine expert and host of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. She's also the best selling author of multiple non fiction books on wine including Unquenchable, named as one of Amazon's Best books of the year and her latest book is Wine Witch on Fire, Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation and Drinking Too Much. So welcome to the show. Natalie it is so good to be.

Natalie Maclean (15:14)

Back here with you. We had an initial chat on my podcast but I am so looking forward to this.

Natalie Maclean (15:18)

Jo oh yes. So first up just tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Natalie Maclean (15:26)

Sure. So my career path was probably like a lot of folks, I didn't plan to be a writer. I didn't have the confidence to be a writer. I was brought up by a single mom, single parent mom and she was a school teacher. So she really pounded it into me make sure you get an education that will get you a job. So it was like I wanted to Study English, but no, no. So it was PR and an MBA and right into the workforce in high tech marketing. But along the way, I was working for a supercomputer company that was based in Mountain View, Californ. Canadian. And I still live here, but the head office was down where the campus of Google now is. So I started arranging all of my meetings there when I had to go on Fridays so I could stay over the weekend and drive up to Napa and Sonoma. Because while I didn't have time to learn golf or pottery or anything else, I was dining out a lot with clients or whatever. And so I really grew to love wine. So that sparked my interest in wine. But then while I was off a maternity leave, I thought, well, I have to keep my brain active somehow. And I had taken a sommelier course just for fun, because that's what type A's do. It was a good thing I wasn't taking golf lessons because, you know, long iron clubs and type A, that's just not a good combination. But wine worked. So while I was off a mat leave, I pitched the editor of a local food magazine because I noticed they had all these gorgeous recipes but no wine content. And I knew just enough about wine to be a little dangerous. And she said yes. Okay, do you have you published before? And I said yes, praying that she would not ask me to send samples because all I had was my high school newspaper.

Natalie Maclean (17:16)

Nice.

Natalie Maclean (17:17)

Yeah. So she gave me a chance. The first article or column was how to find wine food pairings on the Internet. That's that. That was the headline back then. It's gotten much more specific since. But that led to a regular column which gave me the confidence just to cold call other editors. And I started landing columns in some of our national newspapers here in Canada and magazines. I didn't know anybody. I was a nobody from nowhere who made a career out of nothing. But I loved it so much that by the time my maternity leave was over, which is generous here in Canada, it was almost a year. I decided not to go back. I had found something that really sparked a passion. Wine gave me the confidence to write. I had a hook. Because otherwise I would have never thought someone's going to pay me to write and I could be home with my son. So it just all worked. And that's kind of how it came together.

Natalie Maclean (18:13)

Well, just on that, should we just be clear that you were not swigging bottles of wine during your maternity?

Natalie Maclean (18:19)

Yes. No need to call child services. Mommy doesn't drink while she's pregnant. I had finished the sommelier course while I was pregnant. In all seriousness, I never took a Dr. That remains the health guidance. There are a lot of tips in my book about cutting back on drinking. I didn't mean to write a self help book, but it kind of turned into that for some people. But definitely, yeah, I was not swigging, I was not giving my little guy Pinot Noir early on, but it just, you know, wine touched all my senses. I often say you could do a liberal arts degree with wine as the, the hub because it ties to all facets of human endeavor. History, art, religion, commerce, science, war, politics. So it just fascinated me beyond the buzz of it.

Natalie Maclean (19:06)

Oh, and let's add dating and sex.

Natalie Maclean (19:09)

Oh, yes, absolutely. It's, it's. Well, there's a reason why it's a better social lubricant than say, orange juice. So yeah, absolutely.

Natalie Maclean (19:16)

No, that's fantastic. And then again, just so people know. When was that? Like, it wasn't like last year. How long have you now been doing this?

Natalie Maclean (19:26)

So my son was born at the end of 98, so it's been 25 years. Yeah, it's been a time. Yeah, I think.

Natalie Maclean (19:35)

And that's really important because what you just described there, starting out having nothing and now multi award winning. I mean, you are so super successful. And I think some people look at the journey, well, they forget the journey and they just kind of see you now. And I mean, I'm not as lauded as you are at all, but people look at how many books I've written, for example, and they're like, how did you do that? And I'm like, well, 16 years of doing this. So that's the thing, isn't it? It's. It's year after year and you've just added to it year after year, and.

Natalie Maclean (20:07)

You just keep plugging away at it. And the adage is compare and despair. But what the mistake that I used to make is, I'm comparing my sort of back end, I know what's going on in my life to somebody else's front end, which looks amazing. Like, if you ever look at Instagram, everybody's life's perfect, but you don't see what goes on behind the scenes or how long it took them to get there. And you also don't see that for every win, whether it's a book published or an award or whatever, there's like, there's 76 losses or no's from editors or whatever. Like, it's just you. It's just going up to bat Whatever, over and over and over and keeping going.

Natalie Maclean (20:48)

So I think what's interesting about your writing is obviously you still write about wine and food pairings on your website, but also for loads of other places. You do reviews, you do articles on wine, but. But Wine Witch on Fire and some of your other books are much more personal. So what are the challenges of writing memoir compared to your more journalistic writing?

Natalie Maclean (21:10)

Sure, so I've always written from a first person perspective. I like to be conversational. But memoir is a whole, as you know, Jo, a whole other animal from non fiction and even from fiction. But memoir shares so many techniques. Weeks of fiction. I had to learn a new genre of writing. Really, that's how it felt. I had to learn about plot and setting and character and conflict and themes and all the rest of it and dual timelines and all of this that I did not have to do when writing a straightforward non fiction book about wine or travel, as I write about wine travel. It was so complex and yet that's what also made it exhilarating. You know, a memoir is a true account, or at least the way you understand the truth of what happened in your life. But you have all these other techniques that it's a mountain to climb, but it's, it's definitely doable. But again, you have to keep at it. And I took all kinds of like online courses. I started listening to your podcast, which has been immensely helpful. So that's one set of challenges. And then with memoir, if you're writing about anything juicy, it's probably something bad that happened to you because no one wants to write about here's My Perfect Life for Reid. And it all turned out nicely. So of course I, I write about my no good, terrible, very bad vintage personally and professionally in Wine Witch. And to do that, you really have to dig into your own dirt and be honest, be vulnerable. But also, in a sense, you have to relive what you went through. You know, they've done MRI scans on the brains of people who've been through a traumatic, say, car crash, survived, but then they read them the script of what happened during that car crash, and the same areas of the brain are lighting up. So you're not remembering it, you're reliving it. So that is another challenge of memoir, that you're going to have to go back into that, those scenes of your own life and really relive them if you want to tell it in full detail.

Natalie Maclean (23:10)

Yeah, and you mentioned there how you understand the truth. And I get quite obsessed around the word Truth as in truth with a capital T versus the small T. Because there are some things that obviously happened or didn't happen, but how we write about it in memoir is how we see it. And other people can see it in quite a different way. So the example being you and I have both had relationship breakups. I'm sure everyone has. But divorce particularly, and divorce, I always think of it as a good example. My parents are divorced. My husband's parents were divorced. Divorced from two different perspectives. It's such a different thing. And if I. If both partners wrote a memoir, it would be completely different from their perspective. So what are your recommendations to people listening when you're trying to tell the truth, but also to realize it's not the only truth.

Natalie Maclean (24:00)

Exactly. So you can always put that caveat up front. The author's note that says, this is how I understand what happened. It's my story. My story alone. It's not someone else's story. Even though other people may come into your story, in order for you to tell your story, you have to stick to your story. So if there are parts about somebody else's life that really don't play a role in you telling your story, leave it out. Let them tell their story if they want to in their own memoir, stick to your own story. The other thing that I had to do was, you know, I've always. Competitiveness and perfectionism are kind of the. The two snakes in my life. As I say, one is a cobra that you know will bite you. The other is a boa constrictor that will squeeze the life out of you. So I'm dealing with that all the time, trying to, during this memoir, kind of get past that. So showing my flossome all my flaws because I think it's only in being very honest with yourself and on the page that that anyone's going to relate to you. Because for me, a memoir is. Is not exactly what you did, what happened to you because your story is going to be so different from anybody else's, but what you did with it, how you recovered from it and so on, what people can take away from that story. So just to wrap this up, I was all, I always tried to be harder on myself than anyone else, questioning myself, my own motives and so on. As opposed to a memoir never works if it's a revenge book or if you're tilting the some way, readers are too smart and it serves no one, including the author.

Natalie Maclean (25:44)

Yeah, absolutely. And it can be like legally difficult and it's not. It's not your therapy. You have to be past therapy. But I want to come back to something else. So you're a sommelier and you're a super taster, which I discovered when I read your memoir. And this fascinates me because I. I'm very visual in my writing and I. In my mind's eye, I see. I see the thing play out and then I write what I see. So I'll often use the language I see that, you know, other people. Obviously here taste is like literally something I always forgot in books. And smell I forgot in books. And then with COVID I kind of lost a lot of what I even had left and it never really came back. So I wanted to ask you for some tips on sensory writing and how you. I mean, you write about wine over and over and over again. Like you must have such a range of sensory details because otherwise it would get quite repetitive. So what are your tips? Tips for doing this and what is the world like when you are a supertaster?

Natalie Maclean (26:42)

Wow. I. I must say though, I read Blood Vintage, as you know, Joe, and I think your sensory detail was amazing. Not just the visual, but the smell and the taste. I thought you did a great job.

Natalie Maclean (26:52)

Thank you.

Natalie Maclean (26:53)

So you've mastered that. So with living in a. Answer the last question first. As a supertaster, it just means you're very hyper aware of your sensory environment. Even I got tested in California by master of wine. He actually measured my taste buds. You're a super taster. 25% of the population are. Most of them tend to be women. We don't know if that's evolution because we were the ones cooking or tasting the berries before giving them to the children. Or we're just, we're more practiced in it today, sensing and sniffing and perfume and all the rest of it. But it was Dr. Linda Bereshtuk at Yale University of Medicine who discovered the phenomenon. And she said super tasters live in a hyper sensory world. It's like having 500 fingers rather than 10 or a hyper neon world. Yeah, it's a lot of fun, Joe.

Natalie Maclean (27:47)

It sounds overwhelming.

Natalie Maclean (27:49)

It is. It is. Why do I drink? I don't know why did I used to over drink? But it's noticing everything. And without my telling him, the master of wine who tested me, he said, I'll bet you you, you remove your tags from your clothing. You don't like zippers, you have thermostat wars with your family. I'm saying that's just creepy. He's so right on. So it's just a matter of noticing over noticing. So that leads me to my answer to my question. To your question. How do you get better at sensory detail? Start noticing everything, slow down and pay attention. You do not have to be a super taster. You can be a super noticer, though. So I teach online food and wine pairing classes, and one of the first things we talk about is pay attention to everything in your life. So when you cut open a vegetable or a fruit, that's when it's most pungent. Smell it, taste it, Put that into your mind. Give it a name, say it out loud. You'll remember it better doing it that way because we live in a very visual culture, but we've forgotten our sense of smell. It's kind of downgraded to. There was a study of graduate students, and they said, which sense would you give up for your smartphone? It was smell. But we know that loss of smell, like, really it can lead to depression, all sorts of things. So notice everything in your life. I even tell them, sniff the leather furniture in your living room. Just don't let anyone catch you doing it. But notice everything. And then start naming it. And you will develop a vocabulary that you can call on in your writing or when you're tasting wine or whatever. Notice differences. The other thing we do is we don't taste one wine alone. We'll put them side by side or have a flight of wines and notice the differences. Hey, that one smells different.

Natalie Maclean (29:34)

Why?

Natalie Maclean (29:34)

And again, it's just about paying attention. It's like when a movie critic goes to a movie, they don't just sit back. They've got their notes. They're making notes on plot and they're narrative. Just pay attention. You'll open up your world, your vocabulary. And I think you're writing.

Natalie Maclean (29:48)

Yeah. And I. I think also it's being more specific. So, for example, and a lot of writers get this wrong, they might say it smelled of apples, let's say. Whereas if you were tasting a wine, I presume you would say, like a Granny Smith apple or Golden Delicious or whatever you have in Canada.

Natalie Maclean (30:07)

Exactly. After a spring rain and the. The orchard managers had an argument with his daughter. No, I wouldn't go on that way. But. But you' Specificity. Isn't that what writing's about? Like, getting more and more specific so people can paint that picture in their mind of where you are, what you're talking about?

Natalie Maclean (30:25)

Yeah, absolutely. So another thing that I love from the book is terroir, which we talked about a lot when I came on your show and in blood vintage. It's very important, but I feel like it's a word that's thrown around a lot, but that perhaps some people don't know what it means. So why is that important for wine? But also in your book, I love that you compared that to the author's voice. So why make that comparison? Tell us about terroir.

Natalie Maclean (30:46)

Yeah. Thank you. There's a wine label at the beginning of the book that kind of sets up for the contents of the book. The memoir, Domaine Maclean. And then I talk about terroir. But for me, terroir in the wine world means it's a magical combination of, like, soil, geography, climate, weather, the decisions the winemaker makes, all of these different influences that come together to create the final taste of the wine. And I think we do it as writers. The parallel would be our word choice, like our point of view, our humor, our dialogue. All those different techniques come together to form your voice. And we often hear in courses or rejection letters, you know, I want to hear your voice. What is your writer's voice? I think it's all of those things that are working together and that are uniquely you. And if you picked up a book and it didn't have your name on it or an essay, someone would know it's you. Just like someone would know. This wine is definitely a Pinot Noir from California. It isn't from Burgundy. And we could get even more specific than that. But that's basically how I think about it. Yeah.

Natalie Maclean (31:57)

I think one of the issues with a lot of teaching of writing is that often. And we have to self edit, obviously we believe in editing, and we believe in working with editors as well, but often when you're editing, I feel like there's something in your brain that says, oh, that's to me, like, I should be more professional in my writing, or I shouldn't say that because it's too colloquial or. But often those are the things that actually emerge as your voice that make you not like everyone else.

Natalie Maclean (32:29)

Exactly. And I like puns, even though they're supposedly the lowest form of humor. Lowest intellectual form of humor. Humor. So you learn to not overdo it so that it's not one big groaner, but let a little through if that's what. If that's who you are in the wine world. I stopped capitalizing words like Pinot Noir and cabernet and was like, oh, shock. Or using contractions. And, you know, wine writing can be very stiff and jargony, but I wanted to make it Conversational. So it's all those little tiny touches along the way. Again, it's a sense of vulnerability, of being okay to show yourself to the world. As I say, these days everyone knows everything about everyone anyway, everything. So why not show them the parts you want without harshly editing yourself? Because they're going to find out some bits and bobs anyway, so why not welcome them in?

Natalie Maclean (33:24)

Yeah, and again, that's a longer term thing. I think some people, in fact, I was talking to an early stage writer the other day and she said, oh, I, I just won't put stuff about me online. And I was like that. If you want a career this way, it's actually impossible, a long term career because you just can't keep yourself away from everybody entirely. I mean, you have to have your boundaries, clearly, but there's. You just can't stay completely separate. So if you're open from the beginning, then that's all good, right? Yeah.

Natalie Maclean (33:55)

We, for better or worse, we are all brands as authors, as business owners, if you self publish or even tradition. And people want to know the person behind the book. And I keep dragging this back to wine just because it's.

Natalie Maclean (34:08)

That's what you do.

Natalie Maclean (34:09)

That's what I do. But when people present a bottle of wine, whether it's at a dinner party or they're asking for recommendation in a restaurant, we're fascinated by the. If there's a story with that bottle. Every bottle has a story, every book has a story, but it's the person behind the bottle. Like did they struggle and live in a van for seven years and then they finally got a break and then they got a high score from a famous critic or whatever. We want to know who made this, where did it come from? We don't want generic wines any more than we want completely AI written books. It's just there's no human touch. We want to see what's behind who's behind the books and the bottles.

Natalie Maclean (34:49)

Which is why I think memoir is like even more important than ever. Because I think when I think about the writers whose memoir I've read, I feel like I know them as a person far more. Whereas to be honest, I read fiction every day. Well, every night I read fiction before I go to bed. And yes, there are some writers who I follow in other ways, but most of them I just want to read the story, I just want the book. And with a lot of non fiction it's. I just want the information. So I think there is a difference. And memoir is the most personal or of genres really, which is why it's so challenging. But I also think the most almost important for standing out, I guess.

Natalie Maclean (35:28)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You've got to be all in. So it's the most challenging, the most scary and the most rewarding I think can be for the reader and the writer. But you have to be all in. You can't just hedge it a little bit. And I'll tell this little bit, but I don't want to. I want to edit out that.

Natalie Maclean (35:45)

Yeah, that's true now, of course. So talking of putting ourselves out there in. One of the things that authors are most scared of is being attacked online, being cancelled. The negative side of being out there, of putting your head up above the parapet and getting shot at. And this happened to you in this terrible way. And the book goes into it in more detail. So just briefly explain what happened, but also, more importantly, how did you deal with it in that moment of. Not moment. Months of crisis management and practically. And also with your mental health.

Natalie Maclean (36:22)

I didn't deal with it that well at first. So what happened, just to summarize without going down a rabbit hole, is that this, this happened 10 years ago, but I do think the issues are even more relevant today. This was in the heyday of aggregators, Huffington post, rotten tomatoes, etc. And I was looking at different sites and there were a few wine sites quoting my wine reviews, even though I'd. They had invited me to be part of their website, but I declined because I had my own website. So I noticed, okay, they're quoting my wine reviews. Why are they doing that? And then I realized they were quoting my reviews from our provincial liquor store, which is government owned. And so I thought, well, that must be okay. Wrong. And so I started quoting all the reviews from the liquor board because I thought, oh, that will give my readers more context. So I'll have my review and then I will have it clearly separated. This is an. A different review from another writer. Just like Rotten Tomatoes will gather movie critic reviews, but that lit a little bonfire, and allegations of copyright infringement or misattribution, all the rest of it. So I, I did get legal help. I sorted it all out. In the end, I was within the bounds of what we call fair dealing in Canada. It's fair use in the United States in terms of what you can quote and how much you can quote. But in terms of dealing it with it, at the time, it just kind of hit me like a Mack truck out of the blue. And at that time, it was just before Christmas. It's a Lovely Nightmare before Christmas holiday feel bad story. You know, it has a happy ending. But at the time I thought strength meant dealing with it myself, independently and not dragging friends and family into this mess that was happening online. And I thought, I can handle it. And I went for a week without telling anyone what was happening. I was just watching these nasty streams of social media and all the rest of it happening online in the wine world, admittedly, but still in my world, it was a tsunami. And in that time it was about 11. So 11, 11 days I lost £9 and subsequently I developed a heart murmur. So people say sticks and stones will break my bones. You know, whatever, it's just the Internet, turn it off. But if you live online or make your earning online as we do, if we have online businesses, you can no more turn it off than a surgeon can operate outside the hospital. Hospital. So day after day I drank the venom and that was a mistake. So the first thing was leaning on friends and family and bringing them in, admitting this awful thing has happened. Yes, I'm involved and partially responsible for not communicating better and what happened. And I thought it would just be an exercise in shame, but what it turned out to be was an exercise in strength, that my friends and family were there to help me, to support me. My hot buttons, what triggered me online weren't their hot buttons. So they didn't care if so and so was saying whatever. They were there for me. And it was such a relief. It was just a psychic relief. And then, then dealing with the crisis, you have to, to do the things you need to do. I got legal advice originally I was enrolled in the combined business program law degree. I dropped law, just finished the mba, but I sure got my law degree in the end, by the end of it, in terms of copyright, invasion of privacy, suing for defamation, all the rest of it, all those issues that writers worry about. I took a crash course. So I, I got really solid legal advice and then took steps after that to address what the people were saying online. But at a certain point, you also have to stop responding. You have to block and walk, block them, then walk and ignore them. And tempting as it is, even though what they're saying is stop reading it, you've done what you've done, you can do, then you need to remove yourself or it's just going to take, take all of your creative energy out of you and it will have a physical impact in, in many cases.

Natalie Maclean (40:46)

Yeah, I mean, for people listening, unfortunately, this is something that, this happened to you and you did make a Mistake. But as you said, it was not legally a mistake. And the reaction happened, and all that happened to you. And now I, I think people are like, whoa, why would I ever do this? This. Why didn't you at that point, give up? You could have done your highly educated, intelligent woman. You could have got a job again doing something else. So why didn't you walk away from the whole thing?

Natalie Maclean (41:20)

Well, first of all, I'm very stubborn. Second of all, I'm a, I'm a collapsed Catholic, so I believe in suffering. Makes you stronger. So. But beyond that, I did ask friends and family, I had some conversations saying, should I just go back to do high tech marketing? But I left high tech marketing because there was so much sexism. And then I land here. It's like, oh, dear, I just lost. Left brave new world. This high tech world. Move fast, break things. Stumbled into Downton Abbey, but there's a different brand, a different blend of sexism here. But one friend asked me, well, you know, you love what you do. You've worked at it now for, at that time, 13, 14 years. Are you sure you want to walk away from that and go back to a corporate job? And I, I thought, God, no, that's not me. I'm too feral for an office. And I just, I love what I do, so why wouldn't I continue? But it was very scary because at the time, when you're in the middle of a maelstrom, you don't know what's going to happen. You can't see the future. You don't know if you're going to get sued or something's going to happen, what's going to happen. But you have to take a breath, come back, lean on friends and family. Advice, advice. I was in counseling at the time. I remain in counseling. I'm a big proponent of therapy. And you have to get back to, why did I do this in the first place? Why did I start writing about wine? I love writing and I love the sensory engagement that wine brings me. So has that changed? No. So why should I leave? Even though it feels like it might be safer at the time, but it's not.

Natalie Maclean (42:55)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not at all what you went through. But several times over the last few years, I've attracted the hate for my stance on AI and I have at several times said to Jonathan, my husband, I think I'm just quitting the whole thing. I mean, screw this. And then, as you say, the part of the community that are like, no, this is valuable and we Want this. It. It becomes part of why you stay. And also, as you said, I, I love what I do as well, and I love writing books, but I also like technology and learning things. And so why should you give up? And also, people forget. Right. So this is the more relevant question for people listening. How are things for you now? And how do you protect yourself and potentially try and stop these things from happening?

Natalie Maclean (43:45)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm so glad you do what you do, Joe. I mean, I just love following you. All about AI, and unfortunately, those of us who are on this planet today evolved from probably the most paranoid, whatever ancestors who were always searching the environment for what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong. And so that's our negative bent, because that's what helped us stay alive and procreate. So we are the progeny of the most worried people on the planet. So we're going to notice, notice the naysayers and the negativity, but you have to kind of, again, step back after you block and walk and realize there's just so much more positivity that's, you know, so many more supporters. So in terms of now, I've had the benefit of this has been a decade since this happened. And as memoirist Glennon Doyle said, right from a scar, not an open wound. And my family at the time said, well, okay, you've done the healing. Why would you. You bother to write about this? Aren't you just opening the scar? And I said, well, I always, I love Thomas Dougherty, Irish poet, who said, why bother to write about it? Because there is someone somewhere right now who has a wound in the exact shape of your words, which I love. And so that's why I shared the story. But that's why I'm also able to share the story. I've had. I've had the telescoping of time, the lens to pull back, back and to make the reflections on what happened 10 years ago from a place of being healed. So it feels safe. And it's those reflections that are useful to readers. So no one wants a misery dump for a memoir. They want to know not just what you did, but what you did with it, so that they can apply that to their lives if they're in a professional crisis or a personal meltdown with a relationship. So that's why I'm able to do it now and then in terms of safeguarding my health. Well, I work out with a fabulous trainer you recommended to me.

Natalie Maclean (45:50)

I love that, even though I'm in the uk and you're in Canada. We have the same personal trainer.

Natalie Maclean (45:56)

We do. I do it remotely. Obviously, I'm not flying over to. To bath once a week. I learned to say bath correctly too, on the last podcast. But so physical health, exercise, sleep, sleep, diet, but also mental health. I continue in therapy. I love it. Like, it's just we're never finished with who we are, and just the. The safeguards I put for myself online. A lot of blocking, a lot of deleting comments, whatever. Because that's your daily mental stream that's in there, and you have to protect it.

Natalie Maclean (46:30)

Yeah. Well, another tip for people. For a while, I outsourced my inbox because I just couldn't, you know, I get a lot of email, and at the time, I was getting a lot of email that I didn't want to see, and it was hurting my brain. So for about a year, I did outsource my inbox, and then that person triaged and then sent me the emails that were nice or that I could respond to.

Natalie Maclean (46:53)

That's great.

Joanna Penn (46:54)

Yeah.

Natalie Maclean (46:54)

So that actually helped. And I think perhaps that's a crisis management tip, because I don't use that anymore. That after a while that kind of died down, and so I was able to take it back. But, I mean, you're on TV and you're visible and you're on social media. So do you have. I mean, you've set your boundaries, so you only share certain things, like give some advice around that.

Natalie Maclean (47:17)

Sure. So when I go on tv, it's all about wine and fast food or wine and turkey for holiday dinners. It's pretty happy topics. Other than when I was talking about my book, which does, again, have a lot of humor. I'm painting it as this really dark story. But. But in terms of boundaries, I guess I am public. I am out there. The memoir is very personal, but it's what I've chosen, where my boundaries are. And in the memoir, I did change the names of my family because I wanted to protect their privacy. And sure, someone who's really diligent can Google and try to figure out who everybody is, but, you know, so I have set up those boundaries. But just a side note that writers might. Might like to hear on this bit about changing names. At first, I didn't want to use the real names for all of the trolls online, and so I changed all their names because I thought, don't give trolls oxygen in your book. But then once one of the lawyers read the book, he said, well, you know that if you quote what they're saying from statements online and you use a pseudonym, you're violating their copyright.

Natalie Maclean (48:23)

Oh, no.

Natalie Maclean (48:24)

Oh, my. Like, this is just too high. But then in the end, by the end of writing the book, I came to the full, deeply peaceful conclusion that they deserved full credit for what they did and said. So I use their real names.

Natalie Maclean (48:38)

Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. That's great.

Natalie Maclean (48:42)

Anyway, yeah, so that's basically what I do is try to have some boundaries in terms of, like, I. I don't expose where I live or real names of my family. There are just some things that just are good safety protocols.

Natalie Maclean (48:55)

So another thing I wanted to ask you about was you sent me this extraordinary book club guide and it's got wine pairings for the book and it's 54 pages. And when you sent it to me, I thought, oh, I'll just open this. I'm sure it's just a list of questions, which is what I do for book clubs, which is, oh, here's 20 questions that you might like to explore. And you do that. But you've basically written a whole book for a book club and, and this fascinates me. So what are your tips for engaging with book clubs and how do you reach them? Because you clearly didn't make this for no reason.

Natalie Maclean (49:29)

Right. The evolution of that was at the end of each chapter in the memoir, I was recommending wines that kind of tied into the themes. But for two reasons. My editor and I decided to eliminate that and put it into this book club guide. One was, are you down and depressed getting divorced? Here's a wine for that. It's like, okay, that's not the message that I want to send. The other thing is it became too long. So 54 pages, 13,000 words in this little book club guide that we removed that because the length of the book was too long. So it's comes in at 75,000, which is a typical soft paperback at 300 pages, I think it is, or just under. So that made it the right length. So that's where this first developed. I didn't sit down to write a 54 page book club guide, but it worked as a standalone, I think, because it does go chapter by chapter. It gives you a wine, it asks you chapter specific questions, but it tries to go. Or I tried to go beyond that because again, a memoir should be relevant to the reader and get them talking about their own lives and what they can draw from the book. So it's. It asks questions like, do you feel that wine is marketed to women differently from Men, how do you feel about your own relationship with alcohol? Did it change during the pandemic? And so these are all questions that can spark discussion for book clubs, especially when members don't read the books, which I've heard happen sometimes. But also it was interesting because it came back to me through people emailing and direct messaging that like a husband and wife, or husband, husband, wife, wife, would read it together, together and use it, use the book club guide as a way to talk about, issue those issues between them or daughters and mothers and so on of drinking age. We're using it in that way. So I thought that's great. So the way that the marketing to the book clubs has been mainly through the front and back pages or front and back matter, as we call it. So at the beginning of the book there is a QR code and a URL that if you scan it, it will take you right to the book club guide. So that's wine witchonfire.com forward/guide. And then it's there again at the back of the book. So that's the greatest marketing that I did for this book club guide. And of course you're collecting email addresses. They can unsubscribe anytime they want, but that's how I heard from a lot of people. And then I also put at the back of the book, you know, email me me if you've spotted a typo or just want to ask a question. I had so many people like there weren't a lot of typos, but I know people love to email about typos. So I got a lot of emails that way. But I'm just trying to seek out engagement with my readers because I want to take them on the journey with me. I'm not as prolific as you are, Joe, but I do believe that one of the key success factors for marketing any book is an email list. I'm on social media, but the majority of my effort is through my email newsletter because you've got that one to one conversation. Not on rented land, as we all say. But that's been the major thing. Now I will try to seek out like when I hear there's a book club reading my book, I'll offer to go on zoom, join their meeting. But I get a lot of people like a lot of book club members who read the book on their own and then recommend it for their book club just because it has such a big discussion potential. And then they discover there's a book club guide that will help them not only organize the discussion but also the wine tasting, which is again, the reason why a lot of clubs meet in the first place.

Natalie Maclean (53:03)

Yeah, I think that's genius and I think we should all try a bit harder. I think I certainly felt like, oh, I should try harder with that because I, I, because I don't go to, I've tried to go to a book club, but I'm, I just couldn't get involved with that. I'm not a very groupy type person. So I think because I haven't been part of them, I, I haven't paid enough attention. But reading your guide, I was like, okay, this is great. Thank you.

Natalie Maclean (53:30)

Yeah. Book clubs aren't for everyone. But if anybody's listening that does interact with a lot of book clubs, I would love to hear their suggestions because for my next book, I do want to write a book that's specifically for book clubs. But I'm still trying to get my head around it, you know, with wines to taste and, but most book clubs are very proprietary as to which books they choose to read. So I'm trying to think, well, where would a book for book clubs that's recommending wines and maybe some books on the side, where would that fit in? But anyway, so that's just an open invitation. If anyone wants to contact me@natalieataliemclaine.com I'd love to hear your suggestions.

Natalie Maclean (54:05)

No, I think that's great. And I wanted to just move into the business side for a minute because you mentioned there you're not as prolific as me. I don't think that's true. Because you write freelance articles, you write for your website every day. In terms of number of words written, I think you outstrip me like a lot.

Natalie Maclean (54:21)

I definitely out drink you.

Natalie Maclean (54:22)

But, but you have a business around writing and wine, so it's not just the book. So could you talk us through your multiple streams of income? Because I think that's really interesting.

Natalie Maclean (54:33)

Sure. So the first one would be online wine and food pairing classes. So@natalie mclean.com you can find the wine and food pairing classes I offer. I have an in depth course because that, that food seems to be less intimidating for people to get to know wine. You know, a chicken is a chicken. It doesn't have a vintage chart, whatever. So I bring people in that way. But also those who know a lot about wine, sommeliers and so on, also take the course because a lot of sommelier courses and so on surprisingly don't have a heavy food and wine pairing element to it. And it's just a Lot of fun and people get to know each other from around the world. So that's stream number one. One. Stream number two is subscriptions to my wine reviews. So every two weeks there's a new batch of a hundred wines that come out in our liquor stores. Here we have, our provincial liquor store is the single, the second largest purchaser of wine in the world. So it's a huge chain. So a lot of the reviews are relevant to other regions, countries and so on. I review wines from all over, over the planet. That'd be number two. Number three is advertising on the website. The books, what else? I get paid, some honorariums for TV appearances, some not. And then I also do speaking. So lately it's been a run of teachers, teachers, organizations wanting me to speak to them. My mom was a teacher for 32 years. My grandmother was an English teacher. I taught highland dancing. So I'm loving these groups. It's a variety of topics from marketing wine to women to make, make your. Your dumpster fire. Your superpower. Getting stronger through resilience after you've struggled through something. All those kind of topics.

Natalie Maclean (56:19)

No, I think, and this is so important because non fiction books in particular, having an ecosystem around the book is where you can make more money. And then just finally you've got your unreserved Wine Talk podcast. And I've been on that, talking about Blood Vintage, which was great, but I know how much work podcasting is. So why did you start the show and how does podcasting fit into your book marketing and your business?

Natalie Maclean (56:46)

Well, I am a listener first. In fact, I don't know if I've read a physical book for a long time. Even when you sent me the PDF, I put it up into Adobe and got it to read it to me.

Natalie Maclean (56:58)

Oh, great.

Natalie Maclean (56:58)

Yeah, that's how I consumed Blood Vintage. So. So I'm listening to podcasts all the time. I listen to audiobooks. I'm an audible learner, audio learner. And so. And even before podcasts, the rise of podcasts, I had a shortwave satellite radio and I would listen to the BBC at night because that's when the reception was best. And these voices, these lovely British voices would sweep in and out over the ocean, depending on how clear the night was. And I love listening to those. Perhaps it goes back to when my mom used to read me stories at night and just hearing her voice read the wizard of Oz and putting my hand on her forearm and feeling her strength and the words were in the air and then coming into me. I love all that I love audio. So I decided to start the podcast in. Well, I actually made a few attempts in 2008, but the technology just confounded me. Then I started officially near the end of 2018 and got it up and running. And it was an excuse for me to be nosy and ask impertinent questions to people in the wine world, people connected to the wine world. It's not just winemakers. I interview authors like you, but they tend to be wine authors, but sommeliers, cheese people, chefs, anybody. But it's all about the storytelling. So it's very much similar to what I do my books. It allows me entree into someone else's life to ask the questions that I have, hope that my listeners, readers would want to ask, but might be too afraid to or don't have access to this person. That's what I'm trying to do on unreserved wine Talk.

Natalie Maclean (58:35)

But do you think it, I mean, people who think about starting a podcast is like, does it help me sell books? Does it promote my brand? Does it make me money because it is a lot of work or you might pay other people to do that for you? So does it fit business wise as well?

Natalie Maclean (58:50)

I think it does. There's, there's a bit of irrationality. Like I love to do it, so I'm going to do do it. But I do think that it is like having a 100 hour conversation with someone. They get to know you pretty well because I don't just launch into the interview. There's always a preamble where I'm talking about something perhaps more personally like you do. I love those bits and pieces. What's happening in your life makes me feel connected, makes me feel like I really do know you, Joe. And I think people love that. Like it's very intimate, beside your ears, but so business case though. I know that I have purchased online courses after consuming hundreds of episodes of somebody's podcast. And while I don't have sophisticated enough tracking, I do believe in the power of podcasting. Not only is it intimate, but people, you know, the stats are amazing. People will listen to you for 30, 45 minutes, sometimes longer. Whereas it's considered a win on Facebook or YouTube to get a 5, 10 second watch of a video. I mean, it's just so engaged. It's an engaging medium. But those long term, deeply committed listeners are often also long term committed readers, whether they're reading a physical book or listening to it. So I do think there's quite an overlap and I, I hope that the tools get better for measuring it.

Natalie Maclean (60:15)

Yeah. I mean, I think there will never ever be tools for podcast listeners conversion because as you say, someone who maybe has listened for months doesn't buy anything and then one day they will when they're ready. Or I have people come back now, like people like, oh, you're still here, you're still podcasting. I listened to you like five years ago. Then I gave up on my book and now I'm writing it again and they've come back and. Exactly. Yeah. I think pod for both of us, I think podcasting is very valuable and in saying that we're out of time. So where can people find you and your books and your podcast online?

Natalie Maclean (60:51)

Awesome. So you can find me@natalie mclean.com or wine witch on fire.com will take you to natalie mclean.com and then I'm on all the social media channels with my name, but my primary Hub is Natalie McLean.com and you can get that book club, that reader guide, wine witch on fire.com Brilliant.

Natalie Maclean (61:12)

Thanks so much for your time, Natalie. That was great.

Natalie Maclean (61:15)

All right, cheers, Joe. Looking forward to that glass of wine or two in person next time.

Joanna Penn (61:23)

So I hope you found the discussion with Natalie interesting and that it encourages you to write with more sensory detail as well as consider multiple streams of income for your author business and protect yourself online, but also get out there and share your voice. It is a risk risk, but this is what we do. As ever, I love to hear your thoughts about the interview or anything I talk about in the introduction. Please leave a comment on the podcast show notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. Message me on X at the Creative Pen or email me joannathecreativepen.com Send me pictures of where you're listening next week. I'm talking about the Intuitive Author with Tiffany Yates Martin. And in the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time.

Natalie Maclean (62:08)

Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful.

Joanna Penn (62:13)

You can find the backlist episodes and show notes@thecreativepen.com podcast and you can get your free Author blueprint@thecreativepen.com Blueprint.

Natalie Maclean (62:25)

If you'd like to connect, you can.

Joanna Penn (62:27)

Find me on Facebook and X at the Creative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook FPEN Author happy writing and I'll see you next time.