The Creative Penn Podcast for Writers

Episode 825: Writing Short Stories, Publishing Collaboration, And Podcasting, With Clay Vermulm
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Clay Vermulm
Date: August 25, 2025
Theme: Writing Craft and Creative Business for Short Stories, Collaborations, and Podcasting

Episode Overview

In this episode, Joanna Penn interviews horror author and podcaster Clay Vermulm about collaborating on short story collections, the podcasting-editing-writing process, marketing localized fiction, and practical tips for effective critique partnerships. Clay and his co-author Tamara K. Selman’s unique journey culminated in their anthology, Rain Shadows: Dark Tales from Washington State, developed collaboratively and documented in real-time on their podcast Beneath the Rain Shadow. The discussion covers everything from breaking into creative careers and the reality of patchwork incomes, to the intricacies of indie-publishing, selling at local events, and building community via podcasting.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Clay Vermulm’s Creative Journey

• Early Inspiration & Education

  • Clay began writing as a child, driven by passion despite the “real job” narrative surrounding creative pursuits.
  • College was pivotal: An English professor “taught a class on actual publishing... our final for the class was to actually show him that you had submitted a short story to a professional market” ([23:06]).
  • The experience at a rural Montana upbringing limited access to creative communities until college, where theater and a switch from athletics to the arts were transformative.

• Portfolio Career Reality

  • Only recently has writing and editing become Clay’s full-time focus; prior years mosaicked together side gigs—teaching, kitchen jobs, film industry roles—emphasizing that “patching all that together... is really the reality” for most creatives ([26:08]).
  • “I don't know anyone who just writes one book and then that's it—they're done.” — Joanna ([26:38])

Love for Short Stories and Anthology Building

• Short Fiction as a Medium
  • Clay prefers short stories for their creative flexibility and enjoys curating and editing anthologies: “I love to showcase things that are really beautiful and strong works of fiction, especially in the short market” ([27:10]).
  • Recognizes that while “a lot of writers read short stories... they are harder to get out to an actual larger reader base,” horror has robust short fiction communities ([28:19]).

Collaborative Creation: Rain Shadows and the Beneath the Rain Shadow Podcast

• Origin & Collaborative Spark

  • Clay met Tamara K. Selman in a local critique group; their shared taste for slow-burn, psychological horror led to collaboration ([29:14]).
  • “As soon as I read her stuff, I was like, this person is the person out of this group that I want to, like, really work with.” — Clay ([29:14])

• Podcast as Collaborative Writing Tool

  • Beneath the Rain Shadow podcast documents the writing-to-finished-anthology process. Each episode: one co-author creates a prompt (Pacific Northwest location + quirk + horror trope), the other writes a story in a month, and critiques are done on-air ([32:19]).
  • Playful and challenging: They assigned each other subgenres they didn’t like (slasher, zombies), adding fun and creative friction.

• Benefits of Podcasting the Process

  • The podcast demystifies editing and collaboration for listeners and holds the authors publicly accountable to finish drafts and edits.

Tips for Collaboration & Being a Strong Critique Partner

• Building Collaborative Relationships

  • Start small: co-editing or anthology projects allow each author control, mitigating creative tension.
  • Essential: “Come into it with an open mind ... you're gonna have passages... you have to cut... and you have to get to that stage where you're able to take the feedback” ([34:56]).
  • “Not to look at how they're gonna change the story, but what they're going to bring to the story” ([36:08]).

• Finding and Sustaining Effective Critique Groups

  • Persevere through mismatched groups: “That is normal. But there are good groups out there” ([39:19]).
  • Adopt empathy: Remember what it's like to be vulnerable sharing work.
  • Practical Critiquing Tips:
    • Read every story twice; use an e-reader or printout to approach it as a reader, not an editor ([41:08]).
    • Focus feedback on amplifying the story’s essence and author’s intention: “Try to really look for what is the intentionality of the story... help... bring that essence... to the surface” ([41:33]).
    • Avoid imposing your preferences; frame critiques as subjective experiences.

Publishing, Production, and Marketing the Collection

• Starting an Imprint & Division of Labor

  • Clay and Tamara split all production and marketing costs 50/50.
  • Tamara leveraged her 40 years’ experience for business logistics; Clay contributed his indie-publishing contacts for formatting and editing.
  • Used IngramSpark to publish wide, especially to reach libraries and indie bookstores ([43:56]).

• The Power of Localized Stories for Self-Marketing

  • The collection is rooted in Pacific Northwest settings - appealing directly to local readers at street fairs and markets.
  • “People love to read about where they're from. ... This book is perfect for that because people love to read that localized horror.” — Clay ([45:25])
  • In-person sales surpassed online; they've already sold nearly 200 print copies directly.

• In-Person Sales Tactics

  • Practical tip: “Get the book in people’s hands!” Open to the map in the book, show the story set near their hometown ([51:23]).
  • Use visual tools (story prompts, location maps, bookmarks with tropes) to engage potential readers.

Business Mechanics of Collaboration

• Royalties and Contracts
  • For two-authors, 50/50 splits on sales and costs (including author copies).
  • For future anthologies: pay guest authors a pro-rate fee per story instead of ongoing royalties—simplifies accounting ([54:01]).
  • “If you have like 15 stories and 15 different writers, I mean, these kind of payments are an absolute nightmare.” — Joanna ([57:54])

Podcasting as Creative Fuel and Community Building

• Personal Podcasting Experience

  • Clay also hosts Fermented Fiction: a panel show where guests debate the merits of movies/books/shows, sometimes taking positions contrary to their true opinions—an exercise in analytical empathy ([58:49]).
  • Benefits: “It's a fantastic exercise... you have to be prepared to debate it either way... it's a good way to learn how to look for things you love in maybe movies that you didn't ... or things you love ... nitpicking for the sake of finding, like, the nuts and bolts that hold all stories together. ... Even the best ones are just better at hiding it.” — Clay ([60:21])
  • Weekly regular content keeps creative muscles flexible, builds author brand, and continually engages the writing community.

• Advice for Aspiring Author-Podcasters

  • The bar to entry is lower than ever—basic equipment and commitment can launch a show.
  • Find a format you’ll enjoy sustaining; don’t expect financial ROI soon.
  • Podcasting is “great fuel” for creativity, community, platform building, and critical thinking ([62:44]).
  • “You will be shocked who will say yes if you ask them to come on a podcast. ... Writers are very generous people.” ([65:10])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Creative Career Reality:
  “Up until then I've worked lots of side jobs, kitchen jobs and a teaching job and all kinds of stuff like that... I don't know anyone who just writes one book and that's it, they're done.” — Clay & Joanna ([25:25]-[26:38])

• On Short Story Collaboration:
  “I love to showcase things that are really beautiful and strong works of fiction, especially in the short market.” — Clay ([27:10])

• On Critique Groups:
  “Writing is such a lonely game, and the critique group can be a beautiful place to... share the process, too. And that's the part that's so lonely. ... Your critique group is a chance to... share that whole experience with people who truly understand it.” — Clay ([39:34])

• On the Benefits of Local Writing:
  “People love to read about where they're from... This book is perfect for that because people love to read that localized horror.” — Clay ([45:25])

• On In-Person Sales:
  “If you can get stuff in to get people holding the book, they're a lot more likely to buy the book.” — Clay ([51:25])

• On Podcasting as a Creative Tool:
  “Podcasting for me is like my way of engaging with the writing community.” — Clay ([43:56])

• On Launching a Podcast:
  “Do it. You know, it doesn't hurt to do it. ... If you think that's your ticket to making money ... that's not a great way to make money on the short and quick for sure. However, I do think podcasting is really good at fueling a creative career.” — Clay ([62:44])

• On Inviting Guests:
  “You will be shocked who will say yes if you ask them to come on a podcast. ... Writers are very generous people a lot of the time.” — Clay ([65:10])

Important Timestamps

• Clay Vermulm’s Background: [23:06]
• On Creative Portfolio Careers: [25:25]
• Short Stories & Editing: [27:10]
• Collaboration with Tamara & Podcast Origin: [29:14]
• How the Podcast Process Works: [32:19]
• Collaboration & Critique Best Practices: [34:56][39:19]
• Tips for Effective Critique: [41:08]
• Publishing and Marketing the Anthology: [43:56]
• In-Person Sales Tips: [51:23]
• Business Logistics of Royalties & Contracts: [54:01]
• Podcasting and Building Author Brand: [58:49][62:44]
• Advice for Aspiring Podcasters: [62:44]

Where to Find Clay Vermulm

• Rain Shadows stories/book & podcast: rainshadowstories.com
• Fermented Fiction Podcast: YouTube | Substack: Claver Mullen Fiction Horror
• Newsletter & Updates: Join newsletter via Substack for regular writing and podcast news

Joanna wraps up by reflecting on the value of writing about one’s local area—as inspiration for a future project about Somerset—and how Clay’s example demonstrates the power of collaboration, local marketing, and community through critique groups and podcasting.

Next Episode Teaser: Joanna and Orna Ross discuss the craft and business of poetry and short fiction.

Listener Engagement:
Joanna invites feedback, pictures of listeners' locations, cemeteries, or comments on the episode via her website, YouTube, or email: joannathecreativepenn.com

Summary prepared for listeners seeking tactical and creative insights into short fiction writing, collaboration, indie publishing, and author podcasting—all with actionable tips and authentic experience from thriving indie authors.