The Creative Penn Podcast for Writers

Episode 838: Writing The Future, And Being More Human In An Age of AI With Jamie Metzl
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Jamie Metzl, author and futurist
Date: November 24, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Joanna Penn interviews Jamie Metzl, a technology futurist, speaker, entrepreneur, and author of both sci-fi thrillers and futurist nonfiction, including Super Convergence. Their conversation explores the intersection of writing, technology, and humanity, especially as artificial intelligence (AI) rapidly transforms our world. They discuss writing science-driven fiction without overwhelming readers, the real and complex impacts of AI far beyond creative industries, and strategies for thriving creatively in the fast-evolving AI era.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Jamie Metzl’s Writing Journey and Human-Centered Storytelling

[23:18 – 26:13]

• Jamie started writing early—he found his autobiography written at age nine. His academic work evolved into storytelling, especially as he saw the need to bring out the human element in historical topics like the Cambodian genocide.
• His fiction and nonfiction focus on central human stories, even when grappling with vast scientific or technological themes.
• Quote:

  "I felt like the dissertation had missed the human element of the story... And that, that kind of set a pattern for the rest of my life as a writer at least, where in my non fiction books I really am thinking about whatever the issues are that are most important to me..."
  — Jamie Metzl [24:55]

From Historian to Futurist: Lifelong Learning and Disciplined Curiosity

[26:35 – 32:20]

• Jamie’s academic background is in Southeast Asian history, but his curiosity led him toward technology and futurism.

• Emphasizes the importance of a disciplined self-learning process to keep up with rapid change:

• Quote:

  "The world is changing so fast that if anyone says, 'oh, I have a PhD in whatever, physics, chemistry, biology from 30 years ago', what you learned 30 years ago is not as significant as the process for continuous learning."
  — Jamie Metzl [28:06]

• Jamie drew on his policy experience at the National Security Council, integrating his broad perspective to anticipate shifts in technology, biotech, and AI.

Writing Science-Based Fiction Without “Info Dumping”

[33:17 – 36:39]

• Fiction should always be led by character and story rather than research; avoid turning fiction into policy memos or textbooks.

• "Haiku writing": distill research to its emotional and narrative essentials while ensuring enough grounding to make the speculative elements believable.

• Quote:

  "Everything needs to be subservient to the story and the characters...What is the essential piece of information that can convey something that is both important to your story and to your character development and is an accurate representation of the world as you want it to be?"
  — Jamie Metzl [33:39]

• Jamie feels writing both fiction and nonfiction helps him balance immersive storytelling with factual foundations.

The Big Picture: AI’s Transformative Promise (and Risks)

[37:10 – 41:59]

• AI’s impact is far broader than most authors realize—it is woven into “everything,” analogous to electricity.

• AI enables breakthroughs in healthcare, personalized and predictive medicine, and could help address global challenges in agriculture and resource management.

• Balance between optimism and caution is essential; governance and broad societal involvement are key.

• Quote:

  "When people think of AI right now, people are thinking very, very narrowly about these AI tools and ChatGPT, but we don't think of electricity that way... That's what AI is."
  — Jamie Metzl [38:44]

• The rate and complexity of change make it crucial for all citizens to get educated and become involved in the conversation—passive disengagement is dangerous.

Fiction as a Tool for Wrestling with Complexity

[43:28 – 45:41]

• There are rarely clear answers with new technologies—fiction provides a space to explore ambiguity and moral dilemmas.
• Example: Autonomous drone weapons. In the abstract, most are against them, but real-world circumstances (e.g., Ukraine’s defense needs) complicate the picture.
• Quote:

  "If every novel was, 'Oh, there's some situation and every character says, I know exactly the right answer.' It wouldn't make for great fiction...We're dealing with really complex humans and we have these, these conflicting impulses and we're not perfect, and maybe there are no perfect answers, but how do we stumble towards or strive maybe towards better rather than worse outcomes?"
  — Jamie Metzl [45:14]

How Jamie Uses AI & a Firsthand Account of AI-Collaborative Writing

[46:07 – 53:38]

• Jamie found Joanna’s podcast via ChatGPT (“make me a list of really interesting people to talk to”).
• Early tools (ChatGPT-3/4) created fake citations when asked to convert URLs—"hallucinations" are still a problem.
• Jamie used ChatGPT both as a sophisticated thesaurus and as a creative partner. In his forthcoming novel about a robot pianist, he used GPT to role-play the robot’s inner experience, enriching character development.
• For an upcoming nonfiction book (The AI Ten Commandments), Jamie co-authored with GPT-5: outlined his argument, trained GPT-5 on his style, and let the AI produce focused research summaries which he then edited, massively reducing drafting time.
• Quote:

  "This book that I could have written on my own in a year, I wrote a first draft with GPT5 as my named co author in two days."
  — Jamie Metzl [52:05]

• Stresses that a human–AI partnership requires massive human editing and full transparency about AI’s contribution.

Publishing Experiment: Traditional vs. Indie with AI Collaboration

[54:04 – 56:09]

• Jamie’s AI co-authored book won’t be traditionally published—transparency about AI as “co-author” made it necessary to go indie.
• He’s “disaggregated” the publishing process, hiring professional teams for different components.
• Quote:

  "It was essential to me to have GPT5 listed as my co author because I felt like if it was just my name on it, I feel like it would be dishonest...for this book which is called the AI Ten Commandments, that's what I've decided."
  — Jamie Metzl [55:54]

Surviving—and Thriving—in the Coming “Flood” of AI-Generated Content

[57:12 – 60:33]

• The short-term worry is a “flood of crap” (low-quality AI-generated books), but soon tools will produce high-quality “better-than-human” prose in certain domains.
• The answer: be “a first-rate human, not a second-rate machine.”
• Jamie is a “true humanist”—while machines will surpass us in some tasks, human value remains in irreplaceable, creative, and meaning-driven work.
• Quote:

  "Whatever you're doing, don't be a second rate machine, be a first rate human...we really have to invest, believe in and invest in the magic of our core humanity."
  — Jamie Metzl [59:29]

Memorable Quotes

• On lifelong learning in a fast-changing world:

  "The world is changing so fast that if anyone says, 'oh, I have a PhD in whatever, physics, chemistry, biology from 30 years ago', what you learned 30 years ago is not as significant as the process for continuous learning."
  — Jamie Metzl [28:06]

• On research in fiction:

  "Everything needs to be subservient to the story and the characters...What is the essential piece of information that can convey something that is both important to your story and to your character development and is an accurate representation of the world as you want it to be?"
  — Jamie Metzl [33:39]

• On AI and electricity:

  "We don't think of electricity that way... We've just internalized this idea that electricity is woven into not just our communication systems or our houses, but it's into our clothes, it's in our glasses...That's what AI is."
  — Jamie Metzl [38:44]

• On facing technological complexity in fiction:

  "If every novel was, 'Oh, there's some situation and every character says, I know exactly the right answer.' It wouldn't make for great fiction."
  — Jamie Metzl [45:14]

• On human value in the AI era:

  "Whatever you're doing, don't be a second rate machine, be a first rate human."
  — Jamie Metzl [59:29]

Notable Moments & Timestamps

• Jamie’s childhood autobiography & path to writing: [23:18]
• Transition from historian to futurist: [26:57]
• On policy memos masquerading as novels: [33:17-34:31]
• How fiction can inform nonfiction (and vice versa): [36:39]
• Electricity as an analogy for AI: [38:44]
• Medicine and agriculture as AI frontiers: [39:24-41:13]
• Fiction as a safe space for moral ambiguity in technology: [45:03]
• How Jamie found Joanna’s show through ChatGPT: [46:07]
• Writing a book with GPT-5 as co-author: [52:05]
• Why he chose indie publication for an AI-collaborative book: [54:15]
• Being a "first-rate human": [59:29]
• Jamie’s website and book links: [60:37]

Where to Find Jamie Metzl

• Website: jamiemetzl.com
• Books: Available everywhere; upcoming AI Ten Commandments releasing April 2026

Closing Thoughts

Jamie Metzl’s approach to technology, storytelling, and humanity offers both caution and inspiration for writers and creators. His insights remind us that while tools and the world will evolve rapidly, the human spark—curiosity, meaning, and empathy—remains at the heart of great writing and enduring creativity.

For additional resources, backlist episodes, and Joanna’s writing tutorials, visit thecreativepenn.com.