Writing The Other And Self-Publishing in South Africa With Ashling McCarthy

Summary

Summary of "Writing The Other And Self-Publishing in South Africa With Aisling McCarthy"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers
• Host/Author: Joanna Penn
• Description: Writing Craft and Creative Business
• Episode: Writing The Other And Self-Publishing in South Africa With Aisling McCarthy
• Release Date: December 2, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 783 of The Creative Penn Podcast, Joanna Penn delves into the intricacies of writing diverse perspectives and the self-publishing landscape in South Africa through an engaging conversation with South African author and anthropologist, Aisling McCarthy. The episode, released on Friday, November 29, 2024, promises a rich exploration of cross-cultural storytelling and the unique challenges faced by authors outside the traditional Western publishing hubs.

Joanna Penn’s Updates and Insights

Before transitioning to the interview, Joanna shares several updates pertinent to authors and the broader creative community:

• Spotify’s New Author Portal: Joanna discusses Spotify's recently launched portal and landing page, authors.Spotify.com, highlighting features such as audience growth tools, personalized author profiles, and promotional opportunities through redemption codes. She mentions the ongoing rollout and its potential benefits for Findaway Voices authors.

  “You can grow your audience, personalize your presence with a bio and social links and an author profile.” [04:50]

• Interview with Katie Cross: Joanna reflects on an article featuring Katie Cross, who overcame her fears to narrate her own fiction. She emphasizes the importance of mindset in audiobook production, sharing her own experiences with voice training and the benefits it has brought to her work.

  “Consistency is the name of the game.” [03:20]

• Basics of Self-Publishing: Emphasizing foundational strategies, Joanna reiterates the importance of producing quality ebooks and maintaining an active email list as the backbone of an author’s business.

  “The same thing is what still does work.” [05:15]

• AI Tools for Writers: Joanna explores Claude AI’s new feature allowing authors to customize AI responses to match their unique writing styles, enhancing productivity and maintaining personal voice in their work.

  “You can now tailor it to your style.” [09:45]

• Personal Announcements: Joanna shares updates on her own projects, including the forthcoming second edition of How to Write Non-Fiction, plans for a new workshop in Bath, and adjustments to her publishing schedule to accommodate personal well-being.

Main Interview: Aisling McCarthy

Background and Journey into Writing

Aisling McCarthy recounts her unconventional path to authorship, transitioning from a graphic designer to an anthropologist and non-profit founder before penning her debut crime series, Poacher’s Moon.

“Writing a book kind of came out of running the nonprofit.” [18:30]

She highlights her motivation to create literature that reflects the lives of young women in rural South African communities, addressing the lack of representation in donated books.

Crafting Diverse Perspectives

A central theme of the discussion is "Writing the Other"—authentic portrayal of characters from different cultural and social backgrounds. Aisling attributes her success in this area to her anthropological training, which instills empathy and deep research practices.

“Empathy is probably the biggest thing that I learned from Anthro.” [26:20]

She explains how her background in anthropology aids in understanding complex motivations behind actions such as rhino poaching, enabling her to create nuanced characters rather than one-dimensional villains.

The South African Publishing Ecosystem

Aisling provides an overview of the publishing landscape in South Africa, noting the popularity of both ebooks and physical books. Kindle and Audible are prominent platforms, with Amazon being a significant distributor.

“Kindle is definitely big here. Both are used widely.” [33:30]

She discusses the challenges of print-on-demand due to high costs and limited local options, emphasizing the reliance on distributors like IngramSpark to access major bookstores across sub-Saharan Africa.

Self-Publishing Challenges and Strategies

Navigating self-publishing in South Africa comes with specific hurdles:

• Distribution: Securing placement in big bookstores requires working through local distributors, who handle distribution but also take substantial cuts, affecting profit margins.

  “Big chains want to work through the distributor.” [35:07]

• Payment Systems: Previously, authors had to route payments through American bank accounts, but recent changes now allow direct payments from platforms like Amazon, simplifying financial transactions.

  “You can be paid directly from Amazon, which is fantastic.” [37:46]

• Bulk Sales to Schools and Organizations: Aisling emphasizes her strategy of selling books in bulk to schools and conservation organizations, which not only provides steady income but also serves her mission of fostering empathy and awareness among students.

  “Books in schools and then the services that can kind of benefit kids in terms of writing.” [43:50]

  She shares success stories of securing bulk orders from educational and conservation institutions, highlighting how this approach offers better cash flow and avoids the pitfalls of relying solely on individual sales.

Marketing Approaches

Given her discomfort with traditional marketing, Aisling focuses on:

• Direct Outreach to Schools: Building relationships with educational institutions to integrate her books into curricula.

• Leveraging Art Exhibitions: Utilizing her background as an artist to promote her books at art shows and exhibitions, though she notes the necessity to streamline her focus to prevent burnout.

  “I have very much had an approach of trying to run three or four things at one time. And now in my 40s, realize it creates extreme burnout.” [49:10]

• Social Media Presence: Primarily using Instagram and Facebook to reach audiences, while acknowledging the potential of expanding into platforms like TikTok.

  “I use mainly Instagram, Facebook, I have an author page.” [48:17]

Future Projects and Audiobook Plans

Aisling discusses her plans to expand into audiobooks, contemplating recording herself to maintain authenticity, especially since her protagonist is a Black female character.

“I think I might just do that [record herself].” [51:32]

She also mentions upcoming workshops aimed at high school students, focusing on creative writing and narrative development, further integrating her books into educational settings.

Notable Quotes

1. Joanna Penn on Email Marketing:

   “It's my bread and butter, she says, in terms of what makes me money.” [03:20]

2. Aisling McCarthy on Empathy in Writing:

   “Empathy is just sitting with somebody else's life experience.” [26:20]

3. Aisling McCarthy on Book Sales vs. Personal Value:

   “You are not your book sales and repeat.” [12:50]

4. Joanna Penn on Revisiting Basics:

   “But to be fair, the same thing is what still does work.” [06:00]

Conclusion

Joanna wraps up the episode by underscoring the invaluable insights shared by Aisling McCarthy on writing diverse perspectives and navigating the self-publishing terrain in South Africa. She highlights the importance of empathy, thorough research, and strategic bulk sales as key takeaways for authors aiming to broaden their reach and impact.

Looking ahead, Joanna teases the next episode featuring Michael Bungay Stanier discussing building business ecosystems around non-fiction books. She encourages listeners to engage via comments, emails, and social media, emphasizing the community-driven nature of the podcast.

“As ever, I love to hear your thoughts about the interview or anything I talk about in the introduction.” [53:00]

Listeners are invited to access backlist episodes, show notes, and complimentary resources like the free author blueprint at thecreativepenn.com.

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Key Takeaways:

• Writing "the Other" requires deep empathy and extensive research, especially in culturally diverse settings.
• Self-publishing in non-Western countries involves unique challenges, including distribution and payment systems.
• Bulk sales to schools and organizations can provide reliable income streams and enhance an author's impact.
• Balancing multiple creative pursuits can lead to burnout; focusing on core strengths is essential.
• Utilizing AI tools and embracing foundational marketing strategies remain crucial for sustained success.

For authors worldwide, Aisling’s experience underscores the importance of adapting strategies to local contexts while maintaining universal principles of authenticity and connection.

Transcript

[Joanna Penn]

Welcome to the Creative Penn Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double n. And here's the show. Hello creatives, I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 783 of the podcast and it is Friday 29th November 2024. As I record this in today's show, I'm talking about Writing the Other and Self Publishing in South Africa with Aisling McCarthy who has a gorgeous accent and I really love the South African accent and it's always interesting to learn how things are for authors in other countries and also consider other perspectives in our so that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing Things. Spotify has launched a new portal and landing page, authors.Spotify.com now it's not currently available to everyone. The portal side of it, the web page is there. I don't have access yet, but hopefully they'll be rolling it out to Findaway Voices authors soon enough. And of course Spotify own Findaway Voices. It says you can grow your audience, personalize your presence with a bio and social links and an author profile. You can use redemption codes to promote your work and you'll be able to see aggregated demographic data, which is probably what we already see in the Findaway Voices report, which you can download every week on your Findaway Voices side of things. They're also starting to put out more content on the associated blog on that page, authors.Spotify.com and there's an interview with the lovely Katie Cross, who has been on the show talking about direct sales before. And I actually met Katie in Las Vegas at Author Nation a couple of weeks ago. So that was lovely. She has narrated her own fiction, her own full length fiction, and the article goes into how she got over her fear of doing it herself. She listened to her audience, but by her own admission, Katie had to work through a lot of mindset issues about listening to her own voice. Still, she marched on. She invested in a voice acting course and hired a professional voice actor as a mentor. I did the same thing when I decided to start narrating my audiobooks. I did some classes, voice classes with a private coach and I also went to some at a sound studio. More group classes. And there are lots more tips in my book Audio for authors. And back to the article, it says what started as a solution to inconsistent releases, has become one of her favourite parts of the creation process. While Katie admits she was super nervous and insecure at the beginning, she's glad she took that step because she's able to bring stories to readers who wouldn't otherwise experience them. Katie's marketing efforts extend across multiple platforms, but her email list remains the backbone of her business. It's my bread and butter, she says, in terms of what makes me money. It's my email list for sure. And consistency is the name of the game. So it's a really interesting article. There's a lot more marketing tips as well as good reasons to self narrate. Check that out authors.Spotify.com and I guess just a little point on the basics again. I know we talk about sexy things like sprayed edges on special edition print and Kickstarter and direct sales and all that, but at the end of the day, if you put out good books and just use even if you just use ebooks, I mean ebooks, good ebooks in a series with an ebook email list, that's still the basics. And Katie uses email there. I still base my business on email marketing as well. So yeah, I know we don't talk about the basics so often because they're not so exciting and it might feel like we keep saying the same thing, but to be fair, the same thing is what still does work. So yes, revisiting the basics as we go into 2025 is probably a good idea. Also, someone sent me the substack of Katie Loftus this week, whose profile says once an editor at a major publishing house, now writing all the stuff I didn't say then. And so it's kind of one of those substacks which is it feels a little bit behind the scenes information which is just fascinating. Now obviously I'm not with a traditional publisher, but many of you are and she has lots of articles. This one that someone sent me is how do I know when to leave my publisher? And I know many people are just trying to get a publisher, but I think it's really good to have a good idea of what you're going into. And of course I have a book out on submission at the moment, Blood Vintage. So I found this interesting, she says, and it's quite a long article so I'll just read a little bit of it. Says in a society where we sell art for money, the artist becomes part of an equation and there is a price at which they are no longer worth the effort. And I was like, ouch. That is painful, but it's really good to read this stuff in order to think about our own business. It says it's baked into the system because the industry is structured around profitability and value for shareholders. Obviously, publishing companies have to get value for shareholders. While there is no science to making a first novel a success, we do know that if the first one doesn't work, it's most likely the second won't, which again, is super, super tough. And I think this is where the indie world is quite different, because if your first book doesn't work, that's actually quite normal, and it's more likely the second might do better because you've learned a few things. So again, this is all from the traditional publishing point of view. It says a successful book career must therefore have one of the biggest sales ever at the or the career must be long one forged out of gritted teeth on an author and publisher's part. And I was thinking about this, I actually love this phrase. An author's career, if you want it to be long, must be forged out of gritted teeth. And it's definitely not about the writing. I think we don't need gritted teeth to do the writing, but you have to have some serious determination around the publishing aspects, whether you go in the old traditional and the marketing, because many of us, that's the bit that we resist doing or that's the bit that we have to grit our teeth to do. But yes, for some people, obviously financial difficulties or overcoming challenges around health and all of those kind of things. So very interesting. Back to the article. A general guiding principle. You need to act like your novel writing is a business and you are a partner in it. So let's just say that in general book writing, you need to act like your book writing is a business and you are a partner in it. The article is mainly focused on how to know when you should leave your publisher, as opposed to waiting to be let go. And this kind of also comes back to the thing I'm a little bit obsessed about right now, which is how do you know when something is ending? And so this really resonated with that one tip she says, is follow your gut. Are you feeling like something's changed in your relationship with your publisher? It may sound unscientific, but our bodies pick up much more subtle cues than our minds. It's the subtle cues you want, because no one is going to tell you that you are no longer a focus author. I haven't heard that term before, focus author, but obviously in any business, in any publishing house. There are some authors who earn a lot more money than others. Like individually, a lot more. You know, some of my books earn more than others. That's just normal. The 8020 rule. Finally, Katie closes with hold this knowledge close. You are not your book sales. Don't equate your personal value with your businesses. You are not your book sales and repeat. So I like that to end because that is also true. And like coming back to the writing. The writing is why we're doing this. I mean, if you didn't want to write, if you didn't love writing, you wouldn't be a writer. But the business side is is another question entirely. But yes, your personal value definitely does not equal your businesses. I know it feels like that sometimes. And if you're not selling tons of books, you might feel like, oh well, maybe I shouldn't be doing this. But realistically, we all have to decide on our own definition of success. So lots more on Katie's substack links in the show notes or it's at from the Margins Katie Loftus on substack in AI Things this week for everyone who enjoys Claude AI and it's certainly the preferred model for many creatives. You can now tailor it to your style. And this is really interesting. I did try this this week. With styles, you can customize Claude's responses to match your communication preferences, tone and structure. Whether you're a developer writing technical documentation, a marketer crafting specific brand guidelines, or a product team planning ext project requirements, Claude can adapt to your preferred way of writing. Claude can also generate custom styles, upload sample content that reflects your preferred way of communicating, specify instructions to match, and edit your preferences. So I did this. I put in a sample of writing the shadow and then I also did a separate sample for JF pen, like a chapter from a short story and then it came up with a sort of name for that. And then at the bottom of the prompt box you can choose the sty you want. So for example, if you're saying write me a draft pitch email on this topic to go on this podcast using my Joanna Pen style, or if you do story outlines, write a story outline in the voice of JF Pen for this idea or whatever. So you can now change the style from a drop down at the bottom of the box. Definitely try that if you use Claude AI. Yeah, I really love that. So in personal news, I had my edits back from Kristen on How to Write Non Fiction the second edition and I'm just wa waiting for the final round of proofreads and then I'll be into formatting the file for ebook and print recording the audiobook, which I'm actually really looking forward to. I feel like it's a useful book. And then of course organizing the marketing and the launch. Now I know I said I was planning to get it out on my store before New Year, but I have taken a deep breath. You'll be glad to know. I feel like because Americans have Thanksgiving, which we don't have obviously in the rest of the world, I believe we don't have Thanksgiving. So there's no holiday at the end of November. So it feels like everyone in the UK certainly sort of carries on until the end of the second week of December. And then after the end of the second week everyone just literally drops everything. Everything just stops. But I was feeling that energy as I was doing the edits and everything and I was like yeah, yeah I can get this done. And then my calendar literally says stop doing stuff in December. So this time last year I actually put into my calendar, don't schedule anything, you will be tired. And when I was looking two weeks ahead that's what I saw in my calendar. Completely blocked out. And so I have just put that in for 2025 as well so that it will be there in the future. I've also taken that deep breath and said yes, old me is right, I need a break. So I've changed the plans. I will now launch on my store in early January so it'll probably be just after New year, maybe the second or something and then it will be the end of January like the 31st or something on the other stores. But the pre orders will be up sometime this week. Also I've been reflecting on the doubling down on being human. I might have a solo episode coming on that and how much I enjoyed are Vegas patron meetup. I'm enjoying our office hours and I enjoyed being at Author Nation and seeing people in person and I'm not doing so many conferences next year but I have decided I'm going to do a full day workshop here in bath on Sunday 16th February 2025. It There will probably only be 30 people. I will put the sales page up soon and I'll tell patrons first and then I'll email my list and announce it here as well. So if write non fiction and or memoir that day will cover writing, craft and business of non fiction. So it will cover some writing, some publishing, some marketing, some business, some all of that and it will include a copy of the book and the workbook. So more on that once I'm organized for the launch. I do have some interviews coming up. Thank you for all those people who asked me. So yeah, I feel really ready to do that and I definitely needed to.

[Aisling McCarthy]

Do that second edition.

[Joanna Penn]

I'll put the article up on the blog around the reasons to do that. So more on that soon. So thanks for your emails and comments and photos this week. Robin says, I listened to today's episode while brushing my two Bernese mountain dogs, Otto and Toblerone. Don't mention Toblerone. Dear Christmas. Oh, love a Toblerone. They've started to associate podcasts with with Brushing Time. Tiffany's points on being kind to ourselves really resonated as it's easy to see where possible failures are. But we can grow from the critiques. Absolutely. And yeah, Tiffany's episode was fantastic. So please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel, or email me, send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more a conversation so today's show is sponsored by Findaway Voices by Spotify, the platform for independent authors who want to unlock the world's largest audiobook platforms. Appropriate given the news about their new site authors.Spotify.com which really shows how they are focusing on growing this area of the business. With no upfront costs, you can distribute your audiobooks globally to nearly 40 retailers and library services including Spotify, Audible, Apple Books, Google Play and more. Findaway Voices also gives you total control over your retail and library pricing and you keep 100% of your royalties on Spotify and 80% everywhere else. I've been using Findaway Voices by Spotify to publish my audiobooks wide for years now and every single one of my audiobooks goes through Findaway Voices, both full length fiction and non fiction as well as novellas and short stories. I love how easy it is to upload my audiobook files, choose distribution platforms and set my pricing as well as take advantage of promotional pricing opportunities on Spotify, Apple and Chirp Books, which is where I've seen some of my biggest months with Audiobook Income. I also find the reporting dashboard useful where I can see sales and library borrows royalty reports and payments as well as aggregated demographic data about Spotify premium listeners who've listened to my audiobook. So take your audiobook everywhere. To earn Everywhere with Findaway Voices by Spotify, go to findawayvoices.com Pen P E N N to publish your next audiobook project. That's findawayvoices.com pen so this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] thecreativepenny thanks to the six new patrons who've joined this week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. You are amazing. If you join the community, you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering topics on creativity and writing, publishing, marketing, mindset, business and more. And my patron only Q and A solo episodes which this week I put out and I just answer questions. It's like an extra solo show for sort of 40, 45 minutes. And coming up this week is my live office hours where I will demo Claude's styles as well as other things. So the Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous and you get access to all the backlist content. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A T-R-E-O-N.com TheCreativePenn Write let's get into the interview.

[Aisling McCarthy]

Aisling McCarthy is a South African author and artist as well as an anthropologist, graphic designer and non profit founder. Her latest book is down at the Jika Jika Tavern in the Poacher's Moon Crime series. So welcome to the show, Aisling.

Hi Joanna, thanks so much. Really looking forward to it.

Yeah, great. So first up, tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Well, writing and publishing has come quite late to me. It wasn't something that I'd ever actually intended on doing. I started off as a graphic designer in South Africa and did a bit of work in the uk. Came home when I was completely homesick and got into a really interesting craft development program for people who had a three year qualification in design. And we would be working with women who lived in rural communities in an area called KwaZulu Natal where I live. And as long as you had a three year design qualification that matched you up with women in rural areas who were very skilled at craft and the idea was that then we would work together to match those skills to create high end product. So it was really that experience that allowed me to see South Africa in a very different light. And I went on to become an anthropologist and a Non profit founder. So that took a good probably 15 years of my life. And writing a book kind of came out of running the nonprofit. We're an education nonprofit and we work with rural schools. So children who go to really poorly resourced schools in rural communities in, in South Africa. And I wanted to write a book for the young woman in our communities who didn't have any examples of themselves in books. We would get lots of donations from overseas companies for books, but there was nothing that reflected their lives, their experiences. And I thought, oh, maybe I'll start to write a book that kind of reflects that. So down at Jigajika Tavern is actually the first book in the Poacher's Moon crime series. And I last year published the second book, the Leopard and the Lala. And how that came about in terms of writing a crime series versus an educational kids book was that my family was very involved in a game farm with wildlife. And, and just one day I was thinking about the fact that so many people who live on the outskirts of these game farms have no access to them. So the only chance of them seeing a rhino or an elephant or any other kind of game is from the outside of on the other side of the fence. And I kind of wondered what that would feel like. So I started to write a story that would bring that to light. And it was during our time on the game farm. It was the height of rhino poaching and we had six rhinos poached over a period of time. And I really started to get a feel for what the book would be about because there were so many interesting kind of incidences that took place. So for example, a traditional healer was arrested on the neighboring game farm for being involved in rhino poaching. And I wanted to kind of understand better, why would somebody who is effectively has a calling to do good, why would they be involved in such a heinous crime? And we just had so many little interesting things happen that I was able to then weave these real life stories into fiction to better kind of understand why people become involved in rhino poaching and wildlife crime.

Yeah, because being an anthropologist, I mean, obviously that means you're interested in people and what different people do. Talk about what that job is and how much you use from your career in the books and some of the interesting anthropological things you weave in. I mean, you mentioned the traditional healer. Like what are the other things?

Yeah, yeah. So I must say anthropology plays a really big part in my writing. I studied anthro, got a master's degree in HIV AIDS and orphan care. And really it was looking at what kind of cultural practices lead to people becoming infected and affected by hiv. And it was really those experiences of understanding how culture can have such a huge impact on the way people respond to certain things. And so now in my books, I mean obviously as a South African, we have 11, in fact now 12 official languages. We are multi faith multicultural. So it's very hard to try and tell a story from one perspective. So for me, as a white female Christian, how do I write a story that involves many different cultures, different faiths, different belief systems without it coming across as judgmental or bias? So I really do use the kind of methodologies that we learned in anthropology of curiosity, listening, observing and trying to understand somebody's perspective from their, the world that they've come from without kind of bringing in my own thoughts and feelings about that. So it's really interesting and fascinating and I think it helps to better understand why people do things. And then we can look at, I mean obviously we want to end rhino poaching and wildlife crime, but just telling people not to do it isn't good enough. We have to try and help them work with the systems that they have in place that could lead to a reduction in those actions.

I love that. And I think that's so good in terms of whatever we're writing, whatever genre, taking the perspective of someone else. I mean just your examples there say poaching and hiv. There are some people who might write a story that's like, well, they are evil. Evil. They're the criminal, they're the bad person because yeah, they did this. Whereas there are some very logical and logical cultural reasons, like good reasons why these things happen and I mean, but re education and changing people's. I mean even the economics, right. Sometimes this is done because absolutely, you know, people need it for money to feed their children or something. So this is all. It's so caught up in things that we often just don't know about. So I mean this is really hard though. You've spent all these years working with these communities, so you're trying really hard. But for people listening who want to write other perspectives, how can normal people who aren't anthropologists with your background write the other and really try and get into the mindset of someone who just lives a completely different life to ourselves?

Yeah, I think that's research. I mean, obviously as I'm writing about poachers, it's very hard to meet a poacher. They're either sitting in prison or they're just totally inaccessible to you. So a lot of research, a lot of interviews. I've read a lot of academic papers here. There's a huge amount of academics that are doing research into wildlife crime, have worked with communities. So I think wherever you can't physically meet somebody, or even if it's online, is to really try and read as much and find people who are representative. I mean, what I know about a traditional healer, which we call an isangomehia, I know very little about that. So I found somebody who I could interview and who explained to me what the perspective of that faith and that calling is, and then why somebody might turn from the calling to do good to do bad. So I think it really is a lot of research goes into it and trying to find, and not just asking one person because. Just because I'm writing about a particular character and then I interview one person, that's certainly not the. Maybe the perception of a number of people from that culture or that faith. So in anthropology, we call it triangulation. So finding out at least three different sources to verify that information, oh, that's really good.

I think that's excellent because, I mean, as we're recording this, this will go out a bit later, but it. We're in the last week of the American election and it's. It's just so fascinating to read different perspectives from the polar opposites of a political side of things and realize that, I mean, the triangulation in that sense, I know that's not South Africa, but we all have these same things, right? The triangulation is really hard when, if you have two extremes and what a moderate somewhere in the middle. I mean, some of these, it's very, very hard to get into someone else's perspective. So, yeah, I mean, is empathy just a big part of it? Like putting aside who you are to try and really listen?

Yes, definitely. And I think that's probably the biggest thing that I learned from Anthro was empathy and really just sitting with somebody else's life experience. I mean, you talked about wildlife, crime and the economics of it, and the fact that when I've worked and been in communities where really the poverty is just. It's horrendous and people have aspirations just like you or I do, and they want their children to have a better life. So if somebody's being offered their entire year's wages, if not more, for one night to poach a rhino, I mean, very few people would turn that down in order to help their family or to better their family. Yes, obviously there is greed and higher syndicates and all of that, but for the average person or the average poacher who gets involved, I think a better understanding of the other aspects of their life is important.

So, I mean, obviously talking about things like poaching rhinos, I mean this, this is a normal thing to talk about in South Africa. But most people listening won't have been to South Africa. They might not know much about it. And I think some people might even think it's an area of Africa as opposed to a separate country. So what are the stereotypes about South Africa that annoy you the most or the most dated things you hear about it?

Well, I think South Africa gets a very bad rap in terms of obviously crime and corruption. And there is truth in that. I'm very much not looking at the country that I live in with rose tinted spectacles. So yes, there is crime, yes there is corruption, but I absolutely love this country. I believe have no intention of ever leaving. I think what's so wonderful about South Africa is the people and how welcoming and kind and empathetic in many ways. And just that we have kind of a culture of helping one another, of community, of looking out for one another. And I mean, there's often when you see videos on TikTok of people mocking South Africa, the first thing that you would notice in the comments is how South Africans, despite race, faith, political agenda, will band together and protect our country to the death. It just really is a country of huge opportunity. And for me, I think it's really changed the way I view the rest of the world. I have lived in the uk. In fact, my older sister lives in the uk, I've got a twin who lives in Hong Kong and I've visited obviously on numerous occasions. But I always feel such a great sense of relief and happiness on getting back into that airport at or Tambo and setting foot on South African soil.

That's really great because I worked in Australia in the mining industry with a lot of South Africans who left. I guess they must have left in the 90s, which was a different time, obviously. And I feel like when people say South Africa, they have Nelson Mandela in their head. Like, which is what, 20 plus 30? Yeah, 30.

30 years ago this year.

30 years ago, yeah. It's a very, very different time. And as you said, I guess the other thing we hear is, is the crime for travelers. So if people want to travel, do you have any tips for people who might want to visit?

Absolutely. I think like any country that you visit which has there are areas to avoid. And there's just the simple rules that not going into the cbd, the central business district, late at night. I mean, there are very clear areas that you shouldn't visit during the evening. But I know everybody loves to flock to Cape Town and Cape Town is amazing. It's beautiful. It's got wine farms, it's got the mountain. Absolutely stunning. But it's quite interesting. A lot of non Capetonians feel it's a very different experience. Like when I visit there, I always feel like I'm in a slightly international kind of zone. But areas like where I'm from, Durban, a lot of people bypass Durban because Durban does have a bad rap. But it's worth visiting. I mean, we are two hours away from the mountains, we're two hours away from game reserves. We've got the beach on our doorstep. My suggestion is to look around at the other places and other locations to visit. There's the Karoo, there's the Kruger national park, which obviously a lot of international visitors flock to as well. So I think just do your research and try and get onto maybe some groups, South African groups that can share with you some of the best things to do and maybe some of the places to avoid. And there's quite a lot of those websites. But just thinking about what you were saying about Australians and South Africans in Australia, I think probably the worst ambassadors for South Africa are those that have left. And many have left for. For good reason. Better job opportunities or maybe have had a traumatic experience in this country and often don't represent us well overseas. But I think to look past that, that's the same for virtually every country in the world. There's the good and the bad and we have to look for the good and to explore that.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I mean, obviously there are dangerous places in any country in the world, so I think that's important to state. Also, I totally agree with you with going home. And it's interesting how you talk there about going back. I mean, I lived in New Zealand and Australia between 2000 and 2011 and you know, there were reasons that I was away. But now Jonathan and my Jonathan, my husband's a New Zealander and both of us are so pro the uk. You know, I'm so English now and I feel like I am English, not just uk, but I'm English. And this is, I think going away. Like you also lived away. Going away and then making the decision to return, it means you, you make it like an active choice to live in Country. Yes. That's huge, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. It's a very intentional, for me, an intentional commitment to the country that also, I mean I, I was born in the very late 70s, so I had 10 years of apartheid South Africa and, and I understand how privileged our position was at that time and still is and wanting to contribute back to the country that allowed me to become the person I am. And that was part of running the nonprofit was saying there are so many kids out here who deserve better and if I can contribute to that and make something happen there, then I actually owe it to this country. So it's been a very intentional decision to return here and to make the best life possible, not just for myself, but for those around me.

So let's, let's come on to the books and publishing site. So tell us about the book ecosystem in South Africa. Like people do people use like Kindle and the Kobo? How do they listen or read? And what are print sales like as well?

So yes, Kindle is definitely big here. I still get into arguments with people about Kindle versus physical books. And there's still a lot of people who want to have the book in their hand and smell the paper and all of that. So I would say both are used widely. I don't know too many. Well, I personally haven't heard too much about Kobo, but that could just be because I have a Kindle. I don't listen out for that. And ebooks, as far as I know really it's through Kindle. So I've started looking into. After listening to the talk with yourself and Adam Beswick about selling direct, I didn't realize I could sell ebooks directly from my website. So that's something I'm exploring now as well. But audiobooks, Audibles is very popular here as well. So yeah, I would say there's still kind of a big physical store presence. Like to go into a store and buy a physical book. Books on Amazon, yes. Downloading ebooks. But to order a physical book on Amazon, the courier fee is very prohibitive to get a physical book from international to South Africa. So that probably isn't too big. But I mean all the bookstores here sell whatever it is that you are looking for.

But on that. So if somebody wanted to sell their books in a South African bookstore, is it a, a chain? Is it mostly independence? Like is that something you've looked into or is it like dominated by publishers?

So in terms of self publishing, in order to get your book into big bookstores, like exclusive books or bargain books or whatever it is, you have to work through a distributor. So there is a probably about three or four distributors. And the big chains won't deal with you as an independent author. They want to work through the distributor. And so the distributor, they read your book and then they either accept it or reject it. But if they accept it onto their list, then you would send your books to them and then they approach all the big chains. They also work with schools and other entities, but it has to be done through that distributor. So what that does mean though, as an independent, still not coming out with a huge amount per book because the bookstore gets quite a big discount so that they can sell it at your retail price, then the distributor takes a big chunk of that and then whatever you're left with, then you obviously minus your expenses off of and you left with that little amount as a profit.

Yeah, print books, very challenging situation. Are those same chains, do they work across sub Saharan Africa in general or is it like a South African thing specifically?

Specifically, some of them do. So I think the very. I'm thinking of two very big ones that would probably work, yes, in Namibia, Botswana, those countries that are quite close to us, but I don't think through all of Africa.

And I mean you mentioned earlier that there are 11 or 12 languages just in South Africa. And obviously every other African nation has a whole load more languages. I mean, there's a lot of them. So you're publishing in English. Is that that what usually people do or are there sort of publications in other languages?

English and Afrikaans would probably be the two main languages to publish in. There is a push towards indigenous languages like Isizulu, Isikosa, some of those other languages that some authors might want to publish in. But English is taught through in most schools, so. So generally everybody can read English or Afrikaans. Those are the two main, the biggest languages spoken in the country.

And then what about self publishing in South Africa? If people listening are in South Africa or they're interested, what are the specific challenges? Are you using exactly the same stuff as like I would or an American would? How does that work?

So self publishing has. It hasn't been too difficult in terms of just setting it up. I mean, you get your ISBN from the, the National Library System and then I went straight to Amazon in terms of wanting to reach an international audience. So I have the physical book and an ebook, so that's not difficult to do. And now that the payment systems have changed, prior to about a year and a half ago, your payment would have to go through An American bank account and then they'd pay you over to your. You would withdraw that to a South African bank account. But now you can be paid directly from Amazon, which is fantastic. And then the actual physical books here I work with a local printer and I do runs depending on how many books I need. That can be quite costly, obviously, because we're not printing thousands of books. But I'm sure that's the same for print on demand anyway. But you, I haven't really found anybody yet here who does print on demand to say I just want 10 books and for it to be cost effective. So what I do is some of my books I will work through my distributor and then other books I will have for myself. I do a lot of art shows. If I do a book launch or a talk, I will take books with me and sell directly to the public.

So what you mentioned your online store as well. So what have the challenges been with selling direct and any tips for. I guess a lot of people listening, they're not in the us, they're not in the uk. I mean even people in Europe are struggling with some of stuff. So what are some of the difficulties.

With selling direct really around payment? So I mean, I'm quite new to, to this part of trying to reach an international audience outside of Amazon. I wanted to, to kind of move away from only people being to only buying via them. And so it was interesting, as I said, when I listened to Adam Beswick's talk of how he's doing sales directly from his website, my first challenge there was, well, who am I going to use to print these books and how do they get delivered to people and how do I get paid for that? So really trying to work out what is the best platform and it seems to be somebody like Ingram Sparks that can do all of that for you. The distribution, the printing. So I'm looking into that. And then, you know, if I use book funnel for ebooks is then just ensuring that my website is aligned to book funnels way than just trying to work out the technicalities of how these things work together. So I'm very much in the listening to a lot of your podcasts and trying to learn from what people have already done. And I think that's probably the best way to do it is find people who are doing it and then just email them and ask them and hope that they will email you back.

Yeah, I think that's a good, that.

[Joanna Penn]

Is a good call.

[Aisling McCarthy]

I mean, I'm using Shopify. I think Adam uses Shopify is so were you using like a Shopify or an ecosystem like that or are you trying to do it just straight from your website?

So it's straight from my website, which does have an e commerce platform. And I did speak to my web person about, well, can. Should I rather just start a different website? Because also on my website is I am an artist and so it's almost like a multidisciplinary website. Should I rather have just a website for my, my books? And she said, well, the issue with that is that you really have so much SEO and traction and articles linked back to your original website. You would lose that when starting a new website. So it's those kind of little things that I obviously wouldn't think about because I'm not a web person and my tech side is very poor. But I think it's even just finding out those little issues that could kind of create a hassle or an issue as you try and build a book business away from your original author page or whatever it might be and then trying to figure out what the solution is for that.

Yeah, it's definitely a challenge. I mean, my answer on that, because obviously I have separate websites is just to put links on the main site pointing at the other site, so a lot of redirection onto another site and then have have call to action. So there's ways around that. But the other thing is like you mentioned ingramspark for print books and I think there's no integration that I know of. That will be just one click where they just go straight through to Ingram. So that's like you'll have to get the orders manually and like then load them up separately.

Yeah, so it's quite challenging. I don't think I had any idea of what lay ahead. And also because it happened quite not suddenly, it took eight years to write the first book. But when you writing the book, you're not thinking about how am I going to get it out into the world. You're just impressed that you actually finished it. So trying to work that, just to work out how do I now take this seriously? Because I can't keep writing books if nobody's buying them. I do have to also make a living from what I'm doing. But so something that I am very focused on and it's might not work for everybody, but it certainly does work for me because of the content of my books is that they are perfect for high school English set works because the content is very relevant to the social, economic, political, conservation challenges faced in South Africa. So I have got the book into two schools. So my marketing focus is actually on books in schools and then the services that can kind of benefit kids in terms of writing. So I've been asked to. So one school's taken books and then we've written a teacher's guide and a student workbook which will be out next year. So then the teacher can really engage with the material. And then they've asked me to come and do a narrative writing workshop because apparently kids today don't know how to do creative writing because they're always on their phones and they're not actually reading. So is how can you create other services that complement your writing and the sale of your books, but are actually. It broadens your income generation strategy.

I think that's great. And in that way, I, as much as I love Adam Beswick, I don't think that model is for you. I think the bulk sales model is for you and exactly what you're doing in schools. A few years ago now, I had an interview with David Hendrickson, who has a book about how to get your book in schools. And I think it's called how to get your book in schools and double your income. So fantastic. Yeah, I'll link to that in the show notes or search the backlist for David Hendrickson. And he talked exactly about that. I mean, also Karen Inglis has been on the show talking about books in schools and doing that. And as you say, I mean, when you think about the fact that you do have to make a living, you don't want to grind it all out to get a couple of sales on IngramSpark when difficult to do. Whereas you can sell, you know, 50, 100 books into a school and then go and make some income from teaching as well. So I think that's definitely the way to go.

Yes. And even, even that photo that I sent you of all those books that were going out, I have been very lucky to because I've been in the nonprofit sector for so long. I also understand the landscape of charity and donation giving and how corporates in South Africa must give a percentage of their turnover or their profit. Sorry. To charities in order to. For their scorecard to be up to date. So I was able to approach a funder, an environmental funder or company and say to them, I have these books. Are you interested in encouraging reading in schools? But also working with conservation organizations? And there are two really big training organizations here for wildlife conservation. And they very happily purchased 250 copies which then were handed over to those colleges. So that Their conservation students could read the book and learn about community interaction and how important it is. And that was a great opportunity for me to get my books into those. So I got paid. They get, the company gets their. It's called an SED certificate and the organization has resource that they can use and that also I can then work with them further going forward in terms of training work, workbooks and workshops. And that's a really nice opportunity for both them and for me.

Yeah, I think that's great. And schools, like you say schools want to do this and charities want to do this and this bulk sales model, I realize, I mean I, I focus a lot more on the sale to the end customer, but this bulk way of doing things, particularly if you have a book for schools, is just brilliant. So more people should definitely think about that because as you said, you probably got that money. Did you get the money before you even printed?

Yes, I don't print until I get paid.

Yeah, exactly. So the cash flow situation is just a lot better.

Much better. Yes. As you're not same sitting with boxes and boxes of books and hoping that somebody's going to relieve you of them over time.

Yes, exactly. And I think this is the thing to think about, book sales as, I mean none of those sales that you, those 250 books, they're not going to appear on any bestseller list. They're not, you know, but that's not the point. As you said, this is a living for you. So that's what we have to think. It's a bank, not rank.

Yes, absolutely. And I'm really not too concerned about being famous or that might have been in the back of my mind at one point, but it's really. I just want people to be reading the books and I specifically want high school kids. I mean, it's written for adults, but it's great for high school and meeting people who've read the book and their minds have shifted, their mindset has shifted or their view has shifted on this topic and they can be a bit more empathetic and kinder. Yeah, that's really the point of it.

So then just on marketing, obviously we've talked about the schools there, but as you said before, you're also an artist, so you have physical art and you mentioned there a bit about SEO. But how are you marketing the books and also the rest of your business in South Africa and also globally?

Sure. I'm not very good, I must say, at marketing. I think I'm definitely fall into the, the Gen X of hating self promotion. I know I should probably be on TikTok and all of those kind of platforms, but I use mainly Instagram, Facebook, I have an author page. And I think that's how my focus on the schools came about, when I realized this is not a strength of mine of marketing and really posting every single day and kind of trying to get people to become interested in the book. So, you know, actively pursuing schools is one way to get around that. But art, Art, I. I will attend art exhibitions. So we have quite a number of them throughout the year, which are like three or four day events which you can attend and have a stall. I must say though, that art, as much as I enjoy it, it's not my focus anymore. If I have the time to paint, I'll definitely paint. But I've realized throughout my entire working career, I have very much had an approach of trying to run three or four things at one time. And now in my 40s, realize it's overwhelming, it creates extreme burnout. And actually maybe I could just focus on writing. It's what I love doing and the art. So, for example, with the student workbook, I can illustrate that workbook and use art in that way as kind of a complimentary service to the writing and not just always stand alone.

No, I think that's great. And there are lots of people. I only laughed when you said about the marketing because pretty much everyone feels that way. Like, I really don't know many people who are like, oh yeah, I love marketing and I'm so good at it. Like, not many authors do that. I was going to ask you though. What about the audiobooks?

Yes, I am desperately wanting to do an audiobook and kind of. I mean, it's very expensive here. I don't know if it's hugely expensive on your side, but it's definitely something. I get asked a lot about that. And I think again, it would complement high school, especially for kids who don't want to read the book or maybe they have a learning disability or challenge. And actually the audiobook would be perfect for them. So I'm in the position right now of going, do I actually just record one with me reading it?

Yes, I was gonna say exactly that.

I was like making excuses.

[Joanna Penn]

Yes.

[Aisling McCarthy]

Because I mean, I love the South African accent. I mean, and people listening, it'd be like, you've got a lovely voice. Is your protagonist female?

She is a female. And my only kind of reticence about doing this is that she. While there are lots of many characters of different races and cultures, she is a Black female. And I really wanted to have a young black female do the reading of the book. But I mean I have been, it's been suggested to me, why don't you just put the first book out in your voice and when you are able to pay for a proper recording with a professional narrator, then do that. So I think I might, I think I might do that just to, to get it out there.

I think that's a really good idea. And the as you say, the practicality is of finding the exact perfect person for that voice. That's going to be really hard. So I would look at it as. There is, there's some. It's known as just the narrator straight read. A straight read by the author. Quite a lot of people do it. I'm starting to do it more. I've mainly done my short stories but I'm, I have thought about, you know, just doing my novels as well. And you don't have to make up voices and things like that. You don't have to do accents. It's just a straight read as if you would reading in schools which.

Okay.

Do you do readings in schools already?

No, not a lot. Not yet. But I will be as of next year as I go into the schools so. Well that do readings at book launches and stuff. So.

Yeah, exactly. And I think that recording your own audio now the software to do the mastering and stuff is really, is really good. So for people listening Hindenburg narrator is the software that I recommend now which just gives you a one click output with for acx. So and find your way voices and so yeah, I would agree with people who say record it yourself and then if you, you make enough money and if you find someone, I mean maybe in one of these schools you find young black woman who wants to act or you know, wants to get into that that might also in itself be an interesting.

Yeah. Great opportunity. Yeah, yeah.

I'd encourage you with that and I love your voice so.

Oh, thank you.

I've always liked the South African accent. Okay, so we are pretty much out of time. So where can people find you and your books online?

Great. Well if you're South African you can just pop over to my website www.aislingmccarthy.co.za and then for now I am on Amazon, both Kindle and Kindle Unlimited. I am probably not going to be on Kindle Unlimited for too long because I want to try opening up the ebooks to other platforms as well. But for now my South African website or Amazon.

Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time.

[Joanna Penn]

Aisling.

[Aisling McCarthy]

That was great.

Thanks Joanna.

[Joanna Penn]

So I hope you found the discussion with Aisling interesting when it comes to writing the Other, as well as getting started with self publishing and your author business wherever you are in the world. As ever, I love to hear your thoughts about the interview or anything I talk about in the introduction. Please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or email me joannathecreative creativepenn.com and send me pictures of where you're listening or your favorite cemetery or churchyard. So next week I'm talking with Michael Bungay Stanier about building a business ecosystem around non fiction books and it is a fascinating conversation and I've known of Michael for a long time online, so it was great to finally talk to him. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] blueprint. If you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and x hecreative pen or on Instagram and Facebook at jfpen Author Happy writing and I'll see you next time.