Writing Tips: Craft, Structure, and Voice With Kristen Tate

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers

Episode Title: Writing Tips: Craft, Structure, and Voice With Kristin Tate
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Kristin Tate
Release Date: January 6, 2025
Duration: 65 minutes

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1. Introduction

In episode number 789 of The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers, host Joanna Penn welcomes her longtime editor and fiction expert, Kristin Tate. The episode centers around Kristin's latest book, "Novel: Decoding the Secrets and Structures of Contemporary Fiction," exploring the intricacies of writing craft, structure, and voice in storytelling.

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2. Interview with Kristin Tate

a. Kristin’s Background and Motivation for Writing the Book [23:15 - 23:59]

Kristin Tate, the founder of The Blue Garrett, holds a PhD in English from Columbia University with a focus on novels and publishing history. She shares her inspiration for writing Novel: Decoding the Secrets and Structures of Contemporary Fiction, emphasizing her desire to uncover the "one true formula" for crafting successful novels.

Kristin Tate [25:22]: "This book started as a blog and then eventually turned into a book so I could formalize it and share it with a wider audience."

b. Choosing Books for Her Analysis [25:46 - 26:47]

Kristin discusses her selective approach to analyzing novels, choosing a diverse range of contemporary works across various genres rather than relying on classic literature. This strategy ensures relevance and appeal to modern writers across different fiction genres.

Kristin Tate [25:46]: "I chose a big range of genres to help mystery writers, romance writers, and others find something applicable to their own writing."

c. Common Mistakes in Openings and How to Improve [27:15 - 29:49]

Kristin identifies two prevalent errors in novel openings:

1. Overloading with Physical Details: New writers often provide excessive information about a protagonist’s physical attributes instead of delving into their internal world.

   Kristin Tate [27:41]: "We want to know what the character is thinking and feeling, not just their hair color and eye color."

2. Frontloading Backstory: Introducing a character’s backstory too early can disengage readers from the immediate narrative.

   Kristin Tate [29:49]: "We need what's happening right now to pull readers in, not old news about the character."

d. Understanding Scenes and Chapters [29:49 - 33:32]

Kristin differentiates between scenes and chapters, likening them to containers of varying sizes that shape the reader’s experience.

• Scenes: Smaller units focusing on immediate action or shifts, maintaining narrative flow.

  Kristin Tate [30:24]: "A scene break signals a shift, like a time jump or a change in point of view."

• Chapters: Larger breaks that emphasize thematic moments or significant narrative changes, often ending with a cliffhanger to encourage page-turning.

  Kristin Tate [32:38]: "Ending a chapter on a cliffhanger can increase the pace and keep readers engaged."

e. Plotting a Page-Turner [33:20 - 38:21]

Kristin explores the elements that make a novel a "page-turner," drawing parallels to a roller coaster ride:

1. Managing Tension and Expectation: Gradual builds leading to climactic moments interspersed with unexpected twists.

   Kristin Tate [33:58]: "A good roller coaster has a steady climb, thrilling drops, and unexpected loops—much like a compelling narrative."

2. High Stakes and Deep Character Investment: Ensuring that readers care deeply about the characters and the outcomes of their journeys.

   Kristin Tate [36:35]: "High stakes, whether life or death or profound personal desires, are crucial for a page-turner's impact."

Kristin also emphasizes the importance of revision, especially for discovery writers, to refine complex plots and enhance suspense.

Kristin Tate [38:04]: "Revision can be the key. It's hard to plot a complex page-turner without extensive rewriting and engineering."

f. Balancing Discovery Writing and Plotting [38:48 - 40:23]

Kristin discusses the evolution of writers as they gain experience, transitioning from instinct-driven writing to more structured, strategic storytelling. She highlights the importance of learning new skills while retaining one’s unique voice.

Kristin Tate [40:27]: "Authors learn to see their novels from the top down, integrating structural elements while maintaining their personal style."

g. Reading Fiction for Craft Without Plagiarism [40:27 - 51:05]

Kristin addresses concerns about reading fiction for inspiration versus the fear of inadvertent plagiarism. She advocates for reading widely, including outside one’s genre, to absorb diverse techniques and foster originality.

Kristin Tate [43:30]: "Reading is a way to intuitively let story structures sink in. It's one of the most pleasurable ways to learn how to write."

She reassures authors that reading various styles enhances their own voice rather than stifling it.

Kristin Tate [44:58]: "Reading different genres helps writers incorporate unique techniques without losing their own voice."

h. Using Quotes in Nonfiction [45:44 - 50:17]

Kristin explores the ethical and legal considerations of using quotes in nonfiction works, emphasizing the importance of fair use. She advises:

1. Limiting Quotations: Generally, use no more than 10% of a work to stay within fair use.

   Kristin Tate [49:29]: "Don't use more than 10% of a work, especially for book-length materials."

2. Respecting Context: Ensure quotes are used ethically and accurately to respect the original authors and avoid misrepresentation.

   Kristin Tate [50:17]: "Treat other authors with respect and avoid mischaracterizing their work."

Kristin also mentions the challenges of using song lyrics and poems unless they are in the public domain.

Kristin Tate [49:29]: "Avoid using song lyrics and poems unless they're out of copyright."

i. Transforming Written Material into Other Formats [51:05 - 53:31]

Kristin shares her strategies for bringing book material off the page, such as creating visual aids to understand complex structures and initiating a novel study book club to foster community learning and discussion.

Kristin Tate [53:31]: "A community book club can help authors unpack structures collaboratively and support each other through the writing process."

j. AI in Editing and Writing: Benefits and Limitations [53:56 - 64:11]

Kristin delves into the evolving role of AI in the writing and editing process, highlighting both its advantages and inherent limitations:

• Benefits:

  • Editing Assistance: Tools like ProWritingAid can handle grammar, punctuation, and basic structural edits, allowing human editors to focus on nuanced elements like voice and creativity.

    Kristin Tate [62:33]: "AI tools handle the basics, freeing up human editors to work on line editing and creative enhancements."

  • Productivity Enhancements: AI can assist with tasks such as generating book descriptions and summarizing content efficiently.

    Kristin Tate [55:17]: "AI can help with productivity tasks, but the human element is irreplaceable for creative and emotional coaching."

• Limitations:

  • Lack of Human Touch: AI struggles with capturing the unique voice and emotional depth that human editors provide.

    Kristin Tate [55:17]: "Ultimately, you're looking for human readers. AI lacks the ability to truly understand and enhance the human element in writing."

  • Flat and Generic Output: AI-generated content often lacks the depth and uniqueness that personal storytelling brings.

    Kristin Tate [60:23]: "AI-generated synopses are often flat and lack the vibrancy that human-written content possesses."

Kristin emphasizes the importance of transparent communication between authors and editors regarding AI usage and advocates for maintaining the human element to preserve the authenticity and creativity of the work.

Kristin Tate [57:48]: "AI cannot replace the human element needed for emotional and psychological support in the writing process."

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3. Conclusions and Key Takeaways

Throughout the episode, Kristin Tate provides invaluable insights into the nuanced aspects of writing fiction, emphasizing the balance between structure and creativity. Key takeaways include:

• Prioritize Character Depth Over Physical Details: Focus on what drives your characters emotionally and psychologically.
• Strategic Use of Scenes and Chapters: Utilize these containers to manage narrative flow and maintain reader engagement.
• Embrace Revision as a Tool for Refinement: Especially crucial for discovery writers to shape and enhance complex plots.
• Ethical Use of Quotes in Nonfiction: Adhere to fair use principles and respect original authors to maintain integrity.
• Leverage AI Tools Wisely: Use AI for basic editing and productivity, but rely on human editors for preserving voice and creativity.

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4. Future Episodes and Events

Joanna Penn hints at upcoming content, including an interview with Joe Solari on building a profitable author business and discussions about the Author Nation conference slated for 2025. She also promotes Kristin's novel study book club and her new nonfiction release, further emphasizing the collaborative and evolving nature of the writing community.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kristin Tate [27:41]: "We want to know what the character is thinking and feeling, not just their hair color and eye color."
• Kristin Tate [33:58]: "A good roller coaster has a steady climb, thrilling drops, and unexpected loops—much like a compelling narrative."
• Kristin Tate [44:58]: "Reading different genres helps writers incorporate unique techniques without losing their own voice."
• Kristin Tate [55:17]: "Ultimately, you're looking for human readers. AI lacks the ability to truly understand and enhance the human element in writing."

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Resources Mentioned:

• "Novel: Decoding the Secrets and Structures of Contemporary Fiction" by Kristin Tate
• The Blue Garrett: thebluegarrett.com
• ProWritingAid: prowritingaid.com
• Patreon: patreon.com/TheBlueGarrett

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Connect with Joanna Penn:

• Website: thecreativepenn.com
• Email: joannathecreativepen.com
• Social Media: Facebook, Twitter (X), Instagram @fpenauthor

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This episode offers a deep dive into the craft of writing fiction, blending academic insights with practical advice, and underscores the symbiotic relationship between authors and editors in the age of AI.

Transcript

[Joanna Penn]

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives. I'm Joanna Penn and this is episode number 789 of the podcast and it is Saturday the 4th of January 2025. As I record this in today's show, we are getting into writing craft with my editor and fiction expert Kristin Tait. We discuss her new book novel Decoding the Secrets and Structures of Contemporary Fiction. Now we do kind of split the episode into two. We talk about aspects of fiction and what writers get wrong and how to improve. And then we also talk about writing a nonfiction book because of course this is a nonfiction book about fiction and how we can take our knowledge off the page into more of a community. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing Things. Jane Friedman has just updated her key book publishing paths and it is a big update. It is now a two page overview of all the different ways to get your book into the world. And I've been monitoring this and Jane has been updating this for over a decade and I've mentioned before the great splintering of business models and social media and there are so many ways forward now. It is not just trad versus indie. And I remember back when Jane's diagram just literally only had a couple of options on now there are many things. She includes big five and mid sized publishers, university and scholarly publishing, professional and educational small presses, what she calls no advance publishers. And that's there's quite a lot of those now. No advance but a bigger share of royalty and rights, share rights, sales, publishers who will partner with authors. Then she gets into hybrid publishing, paid publishing services, self publishing, social publishing and then a list of grey areas and controversies. As I said, this is only two pages with loads of info on it is well worth a look. The only thing I don't like about it is the order it's presented in, as if there is a hierarchy of value that starts with the big five and goes down from there. But then I am British so I am acutely sensitive to hierarchy. And Jonathan, my husband, is a New Zealander and he finds it quite funny that I'm so sensitive to hierarchy he just will be oblivious to this kind of thing. But I'm like, ooh, but sometimes people don't even mean it in that way, but I feel it. But I think it's more of a Choose your own adventure in publishing these days. So do your research, find the best option for you for this book and for each book over time. Most established long term authors use multiple paths for publishing these days, so that [e-mail] Keybook Publishing Path and I'll link in the show notes now. However you publish, you need to understand copyright and how rights licensing works, because that's essentially how we make money. My US agent Renee Fountain has an article on her site about sub rights and why it's important to understand how many ways your book can make money. She goes into foreign rights, film and TV audiobooks, merchandising, dramatic rights, first and second serial rights, and why these sub rights matter. As advances shrink in traditional publishing so that you can get paid multiple times, you need to consider who controls what and how that impacts your career, how royalty splits work and include reversion clauses, she says. Understanding subwrights isn't just about protecting your intellectual property, it's about maximizing your book's potential. While you don't need to become an expert, knowing enough to ask the right questions is essential and that [e-mail] links in the show notes on the Kobo Writing Life podcast A wonderful interview with CEO Michael Tamblyn, who is consistently one of the most inspirational people in publishing and also one of the nicest who I've met anyway. I first met him over a decade ago at the launch of the alliance of Independent Authors in London. I've heard him speak multiple times at publishing events and he is always so positive about indie authors and self publishing, far more so than a lot of people in the publishing industry. I've also, even back in the days when there were parties, cobo parties at London Book Fair. I've even had a boogie alongside him and I definitely think a lot of him as you can tell, and so this interview is really worth listening to. He talks about the importance of indie authors to Kobo and how innovative the indie author community is about finding and reaching readers as well as craft aspects. He says indie authors will be the first through the door if we want to try something new or they will be the ones who see that there is a need for or desire for a certain kind of story or a certain kind of subject and just jump into that and write the books that are needed to satisfy that demand. In terms of the biggest changes he's seen in the industry, he says the disintermediation of publishers and authors being able to go directly to platforms, authors being able to reach an audience that just never existed before, and the idea that you can have hundreds of thousands of authors all going onto platforms, finding their own audiences, building careers without a publisher in the middle, I think we're only seeing the beginning of what that looks like. He also says another big change is subscription models versus selling books one at a time, and not so much from the point of view of the business model, but in terms of what it means to readers discovering new works, because readers in subscriptions are more likely to try different books from new authors they don't know. So there's lots more in the interview at the Kobo Writing Life podcast, available wherever you're listening to this and there is a transcript on the website. So looking forward into the year ahead, Written Word media share the top 10 publishing trends for 2025. Unsurprisingly, it includes authors focusing on building loyal audiences as well as investing in email marketing and experimenting with pricing. Nothing new there, I think. Direct sales continue to grow and AI tools become more mainstream along with licensing and intellectual proper innovation due to opportunities with generative AI. The article goes in depth on each of these topics and from the AI section they say Once viewed with skepticism and controversy, AI has evolved into a powerful ally in the writing process, especially as a marketing and productivity tool for countless authors. Now, I don't think that the skepticism and controversy has gone away quite yet, but certainly it's definitely a lot more mainstream than it has been, the article says. By 2025 it's expected that AI's role in publishing will be widely accepted, if not celebrated. Cameron Sutter of Plottr shares this forward looking insight. The war against AI used by writers will all but be over again. I don't think that's happening quite yet, and actually I think there'll probably be just a stratification of how people use AI, really. But the article says this shift reflects a growing recognition of AI's potential to enhance, not diminish, the creative process. Authors are increasingly turning to AI for assistance with productivity. A quote from Ricardo Fayette, the co founder of In a time where authors are expected to take on more responsibilities than ever before, finding ways to automate your non creative tasks is crucial. From social media posting to advertising, email sales, fulfillment or tax management, you can expect 2025 to bring even more tools to help authors regain precious time and sanity. And obviously I totally agree with that. In terms of AI and audiobooks, I'm quoted surprisingly as saying expect AI narration of audiobooks to go mainstream. The Indie Author magazine's unveiling 2025 indie authors gear up for AI innovations and craft Renaissance also has an article and I'm quoted in there rights licensing will 2025 as authors have the opportunity to license their books for AI training? Keep an eye on createdbyhumans AI who have already partnered with the Authors Guild in the usa and there will be other companies emerging as well. The expansion of AI agents described as text to action or text to Employee will also give authors more options to outsource non core tasks around business and marketing. In the same article, Anna Featherstone, Ally's Non Fiction Advisor, points to an increased emphasis on quality. The 2025 tea leaves point to the continued off the Richter scale quality of indie books. Readers will be even less tolerant of mediocre writing or editing, bland voice, repetitive content and poor production. Authors who work on their craft, focus on niche subjects, solve pressing problems for readers, and share punchy fresh personal non AI insights will benefit by capitalizing on reader recommendations and direct sales models. More traditional publishers will actively seek out backlists and new works from indie authors. After all, why not pursue indie authors who already have devoted followings rather than picking up manuscripts from the slush pile and starting from scratch? Indie authors will then need to decide what particular works and what business models will make sense for their evolving business on top of these things. And obviously I've been talking about a lot of those things and I guess what's always surprising to me or not surprising, but you know, I talk about things years in advance and it was 2020 when I wrote that book on AI and someone asked me the other day what needs to be updated in that book and I said actually pretty much nothing because everything I wrote in that 2020 book is now coming true. So what I might have to do at some point is write another one for the next five years. Like what it will be like in 2020 30, like AI audio for example, and rights licensing and all these things I guess have taken longer than I expected. Even Blockchain, which obviously had a bit of a down couple of years, is coming back under the Trump administration. So interesting times. So here are some other specific things to watch out for in 2025 that will impact indie authors. So first question and something that should be answered Pretty soon will TikTok be banned in the USA? Many authors use TikTok and it sells a lot of books for some authors. The Biden administration passed a law to ban it since it's owned by a Chinese company, and there are national security concerns around data collection of American people. And also the way the algorithm pushes divisive content. If it is sold to the to a US company, then it won't be banned. But does banning the app violate free speech? That's the discussion. President Trump or incoming President Trump has asked for the decision to be left until after he's been inaugurated. But apparently the Chinese have also said the TikTok algorithm cannot be sold to a US company. Now personally, I don't think TikTok will be banned completely because I think President Trump will do some kind of deal, but I do expect it to change. For example, maybe the TikTok brand is retained, but the algorithm will completely change because China won't let that be seen. I think there's a very good reason they won't let it be seen by an American company. One, because it works really well, but two because there probably are some very divisive things in there. But the algorithm of course is what has made it so successful. So if you rely on TikTok for your sales in the USA, then as ever make sure you're getting people onto your email list and onto other social media just in case. Even if TikTok sticks around, it will probably behave differently, at least in the usa. Will Tariffs on China Increase the Price of Books? So President Trump is also talking about tariffs on Chinese products and many traditional publishers and also indie authors print a lot of books in China. So if this happens, this will impact the price of books. Of course there are printers in the usa, but it would have to scale up production and would be more expensive. But basically expect the profit margins on print book sales to decrease if tariffs go up. Important to remember if you're selling direct through Shopify or Kickstarter. And it also may increase lead times on print on demand services if more publishers move into that in 2025. I would also expect some small publishers who rely on that margin for print products for their business model to go under. I think that is probably likely to happen for small businesses. Will the various AI court cases get settled and AI licensing become the new normal for publishing? So yes, I think this will also happen. There are far more licensing deals being done with publishers than there are lawsuits at this point. So I would expect the open cases to be settled probably out of court and for publishers and authors to start doing more licensing deals. I would love to sign some AI licensing deals in 2025. And the most important thing, as I've said before, watch out for your contracts. Everyone retain AI licensing if you can or make sure you can get some money for it even if it's small at the moment. And I recomm recommend making sure any AI licensing clauses are non exclusive so you can license it through a publisher but also do licensing deals yourself in the future. Now if you think this is making too big a deal of it, you might not remember depending on how long you've been around in publishing. But back in the days before ebooks or in the very early days of ebooks, the publishers sent around these addendums like oh just sign this giving us digital rights because it won't be a big deal. Obviously so many authors just agreed addendums around ebooks and digital rights, which of course what the hell is digital rights? I mean that could include audio, it could include subscription, obviously ebooks, it could include anything non physical so it could include VR, AR, all these things AI licensing. So the definition of digital rights in itself is problematic. But one of the examples I love to give J.K. rowling did not sign that addendum and built her, I don't know, multi million company Pottermore off the back of retaining digital rights. And if you buy ebooks or audiobooks of Harry Potter, they are published by Pottermore. So will AI licensing rights be similar? Who knows. But it's certainly worth protecting the upside of the potential years ahead. And remember how different the world is now from when ebooks really started to go mainstream. The Kindle launched in 2007 and the iPhone launched in 2007, so we are a long way from that now. In personal news, how to write nonfiction. The second edition is out now in all formats on creativepennbooks.com if you pre ordered it. The files were delivered on New Year's Day. Please check your spam folder for an email from Book Funnel if you didn't get it. Or email me if you have an issue. Joannathecreativepen.com the book will be everywhere from 31st of January 2025. All the links are at thecreativepen.com writenonfiction2 number and actually the audiobook narrated by me is already on a lot of different platforms, so depending on where you're listening. For example, it is already on Apple Books and it's already on Spotify and a whole load of other audio platforms. It's difficult to control the date it goes out so that is there. And of course lots of bundles on my store as well. I'm also doing a free live webinar next week as this goes out hosted by Reedy. It will be on seven steps to write your non fiction book in 2025 and I'll be doing a presentation and doing Q and A. So if you'd like to join me, come along on 15th of January, 3pm US Eastern, 8pm UK. You can register for that at thecreativepen.com readsy25 thecreativepen.com readSy25 I have also started my desert book. As I have mentioned before, this is a book I've had ideas about for a long long time. I've been fascinated by the desert since I was 8 years old and we flew down to Malawi where my mum was living at the time and we flew over. This is in Malawi's in Central Africa but we flew over the Sahara Desert and I still have the memory of going up to the cockpit back in the days when kids were allowed in the cockpit and looking out over the Sahara desert in the sunrise. It was such a big deal for me and I just been fascinated with the desert ever since. So I've already written the Author's note to the book and I have actually started writing that thriller. I'm so ready to write some fiction. It's so interesting how after doing a non fiction project I just get desperate to write a story. So that is happening. Also, thanks for your emails and comments and photos over the last few weeks. There have been many, many of them and many responses to my year end roundup and my 2025 go. We've been discussing it all in my Patreon community so I have lost track of a lot of them but a few pictures. Ellen Bard, who was in the episode on Self Care, sent a picture from Bangkok saying listening to the Charles Duhigg episode in our condo watching the sunset over Bangkok and that was fantastic. Ashley sent a photo of a cemetery in Springfield, Illinois saying this is where I listen to your podcast and the part about the cemetery. Very soothing. I'm a writer but more a musician, but I can apply a of your artist tips to both mediums which I really appreciate. I also had a comment from someone this week saying they have a small business and a lot of what I talk about is applicable to just a general small business, which is also true. And finally on YouTube, William2Norman said on the Self Care episode I didn't realize how much I needed to hear this until I started listening. Thank you. Thanks so much everyone and please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on the YouTube channel channel or message me on X at the Creative Pen or email me, send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation so today's show is sponsored by prowritingaid because however you choose to publish, whether you go indie or you want a traditional deal, you need to make your book the best it can be. ProWritingAid is one of my absolute must use tools in my writing process. Firstly to go through my first draft before printing and hand editing and then again after I put the edits into Scrivener since I always make more mistakes and I do all of that before sending to Kristen, my editor and we actually talk a bit about this in the episode today. I use prowritingaid for every book and every short story and I use it with Scrivener, but you can use it with other software or online. I work through each chapter which is more manageable than doing a whole document. ProWritingAid knows all the rules of editing and helps you apply them. And of course you can choose not to make the changes as you like. Like it helps with making your writing more active. Finding repeated words, finding words and sentences you could improve, adding sensory detail, sentence structure, grammar and punctuation issues, as well as typos, spacing problems, and more. They also now have a set of useful reports including story strengths and weaknesses, areas for improvement, and other analysis. Using AI tools to help improve your writing and this is AI assistance, It's definitely viewed as assistance. It's not AI writing. Why use software to help? Why don't you just learn all the grammar and rules and apply them yourself? Well, we all use tools to improve our process and we're often blind to our own writing issues. It helps to have another pair of eyes, even if the eyes are software. Won't an editor do all this? Well, yes they can, but I'd rather pay my editor Kristen coming up today to fix the things that the software can't. And at the end of the day we are writing for humans. So having a human read the book is a really good idea. But I use ProWritingAid as my essential editing tool before sending to my human editor. Check out the free edition or get 15% off the premium edition by using my link. Prowritingaid.com Joanna J-O-A-N-N-A that's prowritingaid.com Joanna this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my my [e-mail] TheCreativePen thanks to the 17 new patrons who've joined over the last few weeks and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community, you get access to everything all my backlist videos and audio covering topics on creativity and writing, craft, AI, business, mindset, and my Patron Only Q and A solo episodes in the last few weeks we've been discussing last year's achievements and next year's goals. I've also shared my prompts for Google Gemini Deep Research, which I really love. And I did a December Q and A solo show, which is nearly an hour of me answering questions from patrons. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. And we have live office hours at the end of January with a recording as well if you can't make it live. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join [e-mail] the Creative Pen right, let's get into the interview.

[Kristin Tait]

Kristin Tate is an editor and founder of the Blue Garret, offering editing services and advice for authors. She has a PhD in English from Columbia University focusing on novels and publishing history, and her latest book is Novel Decoding the Secrets and Structures of Contemporary Fiction. So welcome back to the show, Chris.

Oh, thanks. It's great to be back with you.

Yes. And you are primarily an editor and you're actually my editor, and we've talked about that before. So it is very interesting having you on the show to talk about this book. But why write a book on the craft of writing fiction when you focus so much on editing?

Yeah. So I think for me, and this is, I think, true and to some extent for you and other people who write nonfiction, but I really write to learn. It's just one of the ways I understand the world. And this book was one that when I started editing fiction, I wanted to be able to find this book and never did find it. We were talking a little bit before the interview started about my first book. It's a collection of book reviews of writing craft books. And at the end of writing that book, I realized that all along I had secretly been hoping to kind of find like the one true formula for writing an amazing novel. And I did find formulas. They are out there and they can be really useful for especially beginning writers who are just starting to feel out what it takes to shape a plot or something like that. But from an editing standpoint, they don't really fit a lot of books. Each book is kind of its own, you know, it's kind of like children. They're all pretty unique. And so I decided that I really wanted to start from the other end and start from novels that I thought were successful in different ways and just take them apart and figure out how they worked. And I just kind of did that through writing. It started as a blog and then eventually turned into a book so I could formalize it and share it with a wider audience.

Actually, you mentioned there, but you focused on books that were successful in different ways. What I actually appreciated is you didn't go to the common classics. I think so many writing books use older books that I feel in many ways aren't so relevant to modern fiction writers. So how did you choose the books that you focused on in. In this book?

So this is one of the beauties actually, of being an indie author, is that I. It really was. It was partly my taste. I didn't have to do this strategically. I didn't have an editor or a publishing house saying, we want you to cover these books or it would be more saleable if you covered X, Y and Z. I really started from books that I knew I wanted to learn from and I thought were doing something interesting. And I also really deliberately chose a big range of genres, in part because I wanted mystery writers to find something there for them and romance writers to find something there for them. But also I feel really strongly that if you're writing genre fiction, it can be really helpful to learn from other genres. And so I wanted to get readers away, even if they don't read a lot of mystery novels or fantasy novels or whatever I wanted them to, to get a sense of just what the different opportunities are in that genre.

I actually ended up buying one of the books.

I keep hearing that. I think that's lovely.

Yeah. And just to be clear, you. There are no spoilers in the book. You managed to avoid that, so that was quite a feat as well.

Well, well, for most of the books, there's a big chapter on, like, the overall structure, but there's a spoiler alert. So you know that if you want to read the book first before getting the spoilers, you have to hurry up and do that before you read that chapter.

Yeah. So the book is full of common questions that writers ask or perhaps don't even know how to ask. So we're just going to go through a couple of them. You say, having edited hundreds of novels by this point, in my career, I can tell you that the opening is the challenging section for most writers. So what are some of the most common mistakes you see with openings and how can we improve them?

Yeah, so I think there are two big ones that I see over and over, and it's. It's mostly just a misunderstanding of what readers want to know first. So I often see newer writers try to give us all the information, all the kind of surface information about their protagonist. Things like, like their full name, like their last name and their hair color and their eye color, and all of this detail about physical appearance. And while we want to know about that, eventually, the thing that readers really want to know is what is this character thinking and feeling like, what's their story? Like, what are they up against? What do they want? What do they need? What's standing in the way of them getting that? And all of this other stuff that I think writers are very anxious about, like, how do I get my character in front of a mirror so I can have them looking at themselves and describing themselves? You know, that's not a problem you have to solve. Just wait for a moment where it's going to come up organically, and maybe it doesn't even ever come up, and it's just. It's less important. And then the other common problem I see is that, especially for a character driven work, I'll see writers try to frontload the character's backstory. Right. So they want us to know all of this really important information about how this character came to have the problems or the weaknesses that they have that they're going to have to get over. Like, that's a really important part of the character arc. We need to know what's holding them back and how all of that happened. But rather than starting with it, you really want it to come really more like kind of in the first third of the novel or maybe in the halfway point. We just don't need it up front because again, what we need up front is what's happening right now. Because that's the thing that's going to pull us into the novel and give us a reason to keep reading. Because everything else is kind of. It's old news. Right. The character still needs to wrestle with it, but it's already happened, so it's just not as interesting to us as a reader.

And on that, on the sort of what's happening right now, it did take me. I remember taking ages to understand what a scene was. And I think it was Larry Brooks story engineering that book, that kind Of I finally learned what it was like about four, four or five years into writing fiction and I confused it with a chapter. And of course there are writers like James Patterson who has one scene per chapter. And that might work with a lot of thrillers, but maybe you could explain what is a scene and what is a chapter and why are these things so important? Important?

Yeah, that's a great question. I like to think of scenes and chapters as being just kind of different sized containers. It's really important to remember that readers experience your book across time. Right. I think when we are deep inside a book, like we've been in it so long and this we know the whole story, like this happens to me as an editor too. Right. We forget that the readers are understanding the story sequentially. Right. So part of what's important about scenes and chapters are those the white space breaks, right. Like getting to the end of that container because those, the size of the container conveys different messages, right. So a scene break is a smaller break and signals to the reader that there's some kind of shift happening. We might be doing a time jump, maybe we're switching to a different point of view, any those kinds of things. Whereas a chapter break is much more emphatic. Right. And gives you a chance as a writer to use that extra white space to underscore something like a theme moment. Right. Like I really like writers to pay a lot of extra attention to the few sentences right before a chapter break because they get to resonate over that white space. Right. So it's this extra tool that you get unless and then within the container. Those are all kind of little mini stories in there. So they have a beginning and a middle and an end. It's not just like you're taking this big giant stretch of material that is your story and arbitrarily breaking it up into pieces that go in these different containers. The scene is where you really get to be thoughtful about how those pieces work. And it's a way too of communicating to the reader in a subtle way what the structure of your book is. Right. So you can see this too, where many authors will include part breaks. And that's just a way of kind of just waving a flag to the reader and saying, okay, we're having an even bigger shift here. We're going to move to like a whole different act two of the novel.

I think also when I first was writing, I liked teaching end the chapter with something that wraps it up. Whereas what I think I learned from James Paterson is that you can for A cliffhanger to make readers turn the page. Because I know you said there's some nice white space there, but if you want to increase the pace, you can split a scene across a chapter so it carries on as if they've. As if there's no. No time difference, no person difference, but it gets them into a new chapter. And as you say, some people might read two chapters before bed or something like that, and it just keeps reading. So you can play with these kind of containers as well.

Yes. And I mean, and that's a good thing. You don't want every chapter to be a cliffhanger. Right. You know, you want to mix it up. Thinking about those containers as ending in different ways is a really useful way to do it.

So another thing I think is really interesting in the book is you go through how to a plot a page turner. And you know, I'm a discovery writer, and this is something that I have really thought about. And in fact, it might be something that I could achieve working with, you know, a chatgpt or Claude or something to help corral my chaos into some kind of order. But tell us a bit more about that, about plotting a page turner.

Yeah, I mean, this was one of the big questions I kind of came into the writing of the book with, right. Is how does a writer go about constructing these complex plots and just how do they work? And here I think a lot in metaphors and visual metaphors, they really help me. And I think for a page turner book, I really think about roller coasters, right. And so a lot of it is about managing the kind of tension and expectation for readers, right. So if you think about a roller coaster, like one of the key experiences is that very slow, steady climb up to this big height and you're building the anticipation and you know you're going to go over that. That cliff. But a good roller coaster, like, that's not the only thing that happens, right. Like, you might have one of those at the beginning and another really cool one at the end, but in the middle, you have to provide other fun experiences. So there have to be some, like, loop the loops and like an unexpected curve. And so I think that's really what's happening in a page turner, where you're trying to kind of maximize the reader's investment and get them to leap over the white spaces at the end of the chapter. So that's one part of it. I think the other part is really characters, Right. For a page turner to really work, we have to care so deeply about your Characters that we have to know what's going to happen to them, you know, and often, too, I think you need very high stakes. So it really needs to be life or death or just, you know, I think romance authors can tap into this. Sometimes the happiness of the whole rest of your life is at stake. So I think those are the two qualities. And then in terms of writing one, I think this, this part is hard. I didn't do a lot of research into kind of the writing process for the books I studied, but I did look at some interviews and tried to find some detail about what these authors said about revision. And I think one of the takeaways is it can take a lot of revision, especially if you're a discovery writer. You really have to go back and spend some time engineering your story once you know what it is, and maybe building in some extra turns or adding some extra suspense through different techniques. So I think you can, as a discovery writer, get it all down on the page, right? And then go back and retool.

Another discovery writer friend said to me that perhaps the only way to do it as a discovery writer is to think that anyone could have done it. Let's say it's a murder. You have to kind of write as if each of these characters did it and then decide much later in the process who actually did it.

You might just find in that case that you have to go back in and drop in your red herrings or your extra clues or something like that. But I think revision can be the key. I think it's really hard to plot a book like that with that kind of complexity and with characters that we really care about. I think it's really hard to plot that without getting into the writing. I have not. I have not found an example. And maybe you'll get people writing into this saying that they. They know an example, but I haven't seen an example of someone saying, yes, I have been able to plot one of these very complex Paige Turner type novels from the outline stage. I think it's. I think it's hard because I think that doesn't give you time to develop the characters that we care about and know what they might do. And sometimes it is about the surprises. I think often the best moments in a novel are where a writer will say to me, yeah, like, this character actually surprised me. And I thought they were going to do X. And they did. Why? And I think that comes through in the writing, writing. So I think it's good to tap into those discovery elements when you can harness Them.

Yeah, it is interesting. I do remember seeing A picture of J.K. rowling's spreadsheet for, I think one of the Harry Potters, or it might have been one of the Cormoran Strike books, but it was like I was sort of looking at the picture going, yeah, okay. That's how you plot something complicated with.

[Joanna Penn]

All of these different things.

[Kristin Tait]

And I know some people use different software and all of that kind of thing, but it does feel. Feel like to do this kind of thing, sometimes you do need to plot a lot more in advance. And I don't know, I. I feel like I go back and forth on wanting to try and change the way I write and then just not doing that. I don't know. I mean, you've worked with so many authors. Do people change over time?

Yeah, I think they do. I think a lot of it is knowing what your strengths are. And if you're trying to make yourself do something you hate, hate. That's just never going to work. But I have definitely seen authors who have started out writing kind of their early books really from instinct, once they see the kind of revisions that I asked them to do. And I use a story spreadsheet as it's kind of a. Basically a reverse outline really as part of my developmental editing process. Once they start to get those back and be able to and kind of get the skill of seeing their novels from the top down, they start to learn how to build some of that stuff into the initial writing process. But they also learn that, okay, this is something I can do during revision. So I'll see what happens when they. They're basically kind of doing their own developmental edit at that point. Right. So they'll write a draft just as they have always done. They'll do this reverse outline and then they'll do their own revision round and then be able to. To me and go straight into copy editing, because they just built that in. So I definitely have seen that happen. And I think you learn new things with each book. I think there's something that happens after you get 10 books in or 20 books in, and you just. Some of that story sense just becomes really intuitive and you don't have to think so much about things that you had to think a lot about in the beginning. Like what is a scene that. That's just become second nature.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, why do we bother if we don't learn something with each.

Right. It makes it. It's no fun then.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kristin Tait]

But one of the things that I do hear from some People, I mean, I read a lot of fiction. I know you obviously do. But some authors say they can't read fiction in a niche or just in general because it affects their work or that they worried about plagiarism. And then the way you're writing about fiction here is a kind of much more deconstructive way. So how can authors write, read fiction, I guess in one way to learn and structure and all of that kind of thing, but also sometimes turn it off and just to try and enjoy a book. It's really kind of hard to balance both.

Yeah, I think I, you know, I have people ask me all the time, like, how do you still read for pleasure when you edit? And I, I am able to just turn off the editor brain. I think it helps that I read and like, I don't read books that I'm working on on my Kindle, and that's what I read. 90% of my for pleasure reading is on the Kindle now. But I understand this concern about the inadvertent plagiarism, and I think it's one of those anxieties that is not a real thing. Right. Especially if you are putting your heart and soul into a book and weaving your own experience into it. I think writers are going to be less influenced than they fear by what they read. And that's especially true if you read a lot. Right. I could see if you are doing a deep dive into James Patterson or something. I could see being influenced by his style. But if you're reading a different author every couple of weeks, I just don't think that that's going to happen. And I think when you are not reading especially like very recent fiction, and this is why I picked very recent books, you're not getting a sense of how style is changing of other, like, tips and techniques and tools you might be reading. And I just feel really strongly that novels, I mean, again, going back to that child metaphor, they're all so different. So the second you see a technique that another writer has used and pull it into your book, when you apply it to your own characters and your own plot and your own style, style, it's not going to be really recognizable as that same technique. It's going to feel really, really different. I just think reading is one of those ways where we get to like writing. We get to kind of intuitively let that story structure sink into us. And it's just. It's really the most pleasurable way to learn how to write. So I really advocate for writers reading more and like I said reading outside of their genre. And I guess if you really can't get over that kind of anxiety of influence, that would be. What I would recommend is if you're writing genre fiction, go write. Go read some literary fiction. Or if you're writing mysteries, start reading fantasy novels and you'll pick up some really cool techniques too, to bring back into your genre. That could be exciting.

Or it can actually just really help you. On Voice, Like, I do think about author voice. And if you read the Richard Osborne, the Thursday Murder Club. You've read that one.

Yes. Oh, they're so fun. I actually. I had Covid a couple years ago and I couldn't. I had such a terrible headache and I couldn't read and I listened to them all on audio and it was. I still, like. I have a positive memory of my Covid experience because I spent a week just listening to those books.

Oh, fantastic. And there's going to be a movie. So if people have. I haven't read books, but when I. I was really resistant to the book because he's very famous here in the uk and I kind of thought it was one of those cases of a celebrity who got a book deal and it was going to be. It was going to be bad. And it's so not bad, it's just fantastic. And I, like, I read all of them as you have, and he started his new series and everything, but when I was reading it, I was like, wow, this is so different to a book that I could ever write or would want to write. And just his voice, I don't know, is so specific. And the way he. The way his humour works and all of that. And I've read a few kind of cosies and they haven't come across in the same way. And I think I learned from that that you can enjoy books because I mostly read darker books. But I was like, wow, you can just love these different types of books and learn from them. Even if it's a kind of realization that this is not something you're ever going to write.

Yes, absolutely. And I think too, that's a lesson to put more of your own personality and humor and weirdness and all of that into your books, because that's the thing that's so unique to you and is going to distinguish yourself from all of the other books that might have very similar plot moves. Often they do, and readers just don't. They just don't care.

Care or they want that. Often.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what tropes are all About. Right. They want to see. They want to see that familiar roller coaster move coming around there. It's exciting, but they want to see your. Your spin on it. Right?

Yeah. So we talked a bit there about inadvertent plagiarism and I wanted to come back to the quotes in the book because of course you're quoting writers and the chapters are also themed around certain books and authors. And there'll be people listening who are writing non fiction books and who are collecting quotes. So how do we both use quotes? Within the bounds of fair use. And maybe we need to explain what that is and also make sure not to plagiarize accidentally.

Yeah. So I have an academic background and that really got pulled into this book. And when you're writing an English lit paper, you're taught to do close reading and use textual evidence. So it's second nature to me to kind of, if I'm making a point about the way something works in a book to let's pull in a passage and take a look at it. You know, let's step back a minute and talk a little bit about fair use. So the way I often see this pop up as an editor is authors wanting to use song lyrics in their books. Just can't even count the number of times this has come up. And I think you've had good legal advisors on your show and it's a tricky issue. And it's different. It's a little bit different for songs because they're so short. So part of what the fair use principle is, you're using a very tiny percentage of a work. Right. We're respecting other people's copyright and IP and all of that. But songs are very, very short. Something that's a book length work is a lot longer. There's kind of rules of thumb out there. This is one of those gray areas in a legal context, which is frustrating, I think, for those of us who want to follow the rules and have it be very black and white. But one figure I've seen floating around is not to use more than 10% of a work, and that's for an 80,000 word novel. That's actually a really high number. And I didn't even come close to that. But in terms of writing nonfiction and using things deliberately, I think some of it is ethical. Right. What I do see out there that I think crosses an ethical line are these things that are like kind of study guides of popular nonfiction books where it's kind of encouraging you to buy this kind of shortened summary version in place of buying the actual book. And that's. Oh, yes. I mean, that's one of those things. I see them out there, and I think how this doesn't. This doesn't seem right, and how is this allowed? And that's certainly not what I'm doing. It's not what you're doing. When you, you know, pull in, you often use epigraphs, I know, in your nonfiction books, and all of that's fine. Right. You know, what we're doing when we're quoting authors in that way is really encouraging readers to go take a look at these books. Right. You include a resource section at the end of all of your nonfiction chapters, actually pointing readers to those sources that you've quoted from. And that's really important. And then I think if you're writing nonfiction and you're doing the research for this, the rule is really to just take meticulous notes. I use the highlighting tool on Kindle or, like, transcribe notes. I don't paraphrase when I am taking notes because I want to know. I want to be able to go back and check exactly what the original quote is. Right. So I want to know when I'm quoting and when I'm not, so I can make sure I flag that in the book. So it's just about really keeping records, making sure it's all in one place. And you can go back and check that later, or your copy editor can check it later and make sure it's accurate. And you know that readers can find what you're quoting.

Yeah. So just basically don't use song lyrics and don't use poems as well, unless they're out of copyright, because they're often very short as well. I think some of the other things around fair use are parody. So you can use things for parody, which, you know. But parody is very difficult. Not something we're particularly doing, but also as part of education and commentary, which is what you're doing. Doing. It's with your book particularly, I feel like it is commentary. And when you've quoted things as. Even though they're within the Fair use boundaries, it's still commentary. So. And it's transformative as well, right?

Exactly. Exactly. It's really just a matter of, as an author, you want to treat other authors with respect. And if you're doing that, you're not gonna. You're not gonna go wrong.

Yeah. And also context. So. So you can. Somebody did this to me once, and I'm still sore about it. They took a line from. And it was from one of my novels. They took a line from one of my novels and to make a case that I was some kind of fascist. And I was like, that is a character saying something in a novel that you've taken completely out of context. And I feel like that is part of, like you said, about respecting other people. You can probably find quotes in people's books, books like people picking quotes out the Bible and things out of context, you know? But I feel like, as you said, it's about respecting the person whose book it is and doing that in a positive way. And you don't want anyone to happen upon your book or for you to share it and just be really upset that you've quoted them in some way.

Yeah. I really think of nonfiction books in particular as part of a conversation, but actually, I think you can think of fiction books the same way. Way. Right. And so you just. In a conversation with another human being, you don't want to mischaracterize what they're saying or that just doesn't lead to a productive conversation. Right. So what I'm trying to do in this book is show how these books work and encourage readers to read them. Right. And so that's part. I'm kind of extending the conversation that these authors have already started by publishing their novel.

And then nonfiction books, to me, have a lot of elements that might come off the page in some way. So how are you taking the book and the material off the page into people's minds in other ways?

Yeah. So I know this is something I feel like you do really well in your nonfiction, as well as you end your chapters with often questions and as I said, your resources list, I think for me, this happened in two ways. As I said, I'm a very visual learner. And so when I was wrestling with especially a lot of the kind of structural elements of these novels, or there's a chapter on N.K. jemisin's the City We Became, which is such a great book. And she has, I think, six or seven different point of view characters and narrators. And to wrap my head around how that worked, I ended up creating figures for a lot of these. These things. So they're kind of graphical so I could wrap my head around it. So that's something that I have used as a learning tool. And they're on my website. And so that's something that kind of comes off the page and can help readers. And then another thing I'm getting ready to do in the new year that I'm super excited about, is I'm going to start a novel study book club. So we're going to kind of keep this reading going. The theme for next year is going to be bestsellers, so there's going to be a Patreon community. We're going to vote on a recent bestseller to take apart and study this way each month. So I'm really excited to see how that's going to work and just use it as a way to encourage people to read more. And I think if people can do it in a community and hopefully get some kind of resources around how to unpack the structure and how to understand it, that it might be more profitable and just feel a little bit less lonely. Right?

Yeah, I think it is interesting to do that. And often when someone else points things out, I mean, even in your own book. Well, in my fiction, for example, sometimes you say things in the edit and I'm like, oh, I didn't even know I thought that, or I didn't even know that that was there. And so when you do it in a group like that, it may be that you find things within the text and it helps other people see things that will bring out new ideas.

I think this can really help authors be better editors of their own. Right. If a reader, if the way another reader is experiencing something surprises you, that's really kind of a learning experience right there. Because that's a way you might come back to your own work and think, oh, well, how could I apply this here? Like, as a reader, I might experience this this way. But now that I know that another reader experiences it in a very different way, I can play around with my choices here.

Yes, it's all about learning things and then putting it into practice. But I was thinking about this because, and obviously, as we've mentioned, you're my editor, but I also use prowritingaid and we are in this time in the writing and publishing history of generative AI. And it feels like an author could put all the craft books into practice, including yours, and then work with ChatGPT or Claude and ProWritingAid and say, do I even need a human editor? Like, why would someone hire Kristen or hire another human editor? So what are your thoughts on the benefits of still working with a human editor? When does it add more than. Than software, basically? I know it's a super leading question.

Well, it's. I mean, it's complicated and I think the answer to this is going to change. I mean, and I think the part that's not going to change is that ultimately you're Looking for human readers. And as good as these tools are, and many of them are quite good, they just are not a stand in for a human reader. And that's what your editor is. I think the other thing that I see happening in particular right now with these tools is that they tend to move people towards the most common solution or answer. And that's a plus in many ways. But often if you're writing fiction, that's actually not what you want. And so especially if I'm working with an author who I know has used one of these tools either in kind of the planning process or maybe in part in the generating process, then I'm, as a human editor, my role is to help them be even more human. Right. If I can kind of then tease out an element that I can see. Oh, I really, I think this is your voice versus the AI voice. And like, let's figure out how to heighten that. Or here's a place where you took the most obvious next step in your plot. What are five or ten ways that you could just make a left turn here and how would that impact the reader's experience? The other piece is really the kind of human coaching element. I find this becomes a bigger and bigger part of my editing practice is that writers, it doesn't matter how experienced they are, there's going to be some kind of like emotional or psychological stumbling block. Often in a book where they run into imposter syndrome or they just get stuck or there's, you know, know they encounter writer's block or something and you really need a little bit of kind of really is like. I think of it as book therapy to get a writer out of that. It's a mix of encouragement and reminding them of the elements that are already working in their book and trying to give them a layout of a reasonable path in front of them for how to do the revision work that they need. And I just. An AI cannot do that very convincingly yet I think you really do need a human being on the other end of the screen or the phone or just in the Microsoft Word comments to help keep you going. Yeah.

Which is that real value added side of things. I still think perhaps early writers believe that editing is just fixing grammar and typos, whereas that's a tiny, tiny piece of it. I mean an important piece. But still, as you say, it's not necessarily the most important. You did say that sometimes when you're working with people who use AI tools, obviously you, you and I, or I'm very honest with you about My usage. And you've not had an issue with that. And obviously I use things in an ethical way, but can you tell then if someone hasn't told you, do you notice? And also, do you have a problem with AI use? And also you're part of an organization for editors. Should editors have a problem with AI use? Or where's the line around usage?

I mean, I think everyone's got to decide this for themselves, right? People have really strong feelings on this issue, and I understand them. I have the advantage of. I live in San Francisco and my partner works in tech. And he told me probably three years ago, these LLMs are going to be able to write a novel. And I was horrified and said, absolutely not. I don't believe you. And kind of had a mini tantrum. But it prepared me for the fact that actually now they can. Now, I definitely don't have people coming to me who have just spat out an entire novel using one of these tools. And the fact is that they would be, you know, that they are not good at that. Yes, it can be done. They're just, you know, they're going to be cliched and boring and generic because that again, again, is. These models are. They're geared not towards creativity and uniqueness and all of that. That's just not what they do. And I think also you can detect when that human element isn't there. So I don't have any problem with writers using them. I can often tell, especially if it's a writer I've worked with a lot, and then they'll send me a synopsis or something, and it's just in a really different voice. The AI voice tends to be quite flat. It's very correct, but it's very flat. And so that is something I've started to notice. I think the thing that we have to do on both sides of the editor author relationship is just be really upfront about how we're using these tools when we're using them and experiment with when they're helpful and when they're not. Like, I am absolutely 100% sold on using these tools to write book descriptions, for example, or for example, in my own book, what I did use it for was to help me with the takeaways that are at the end because they're really good at summarizing. I then had to rewrite them in my own voice because they didn't have my voice. But even that part might come. So I think it's just going to be a matter of communicating with one another. I Think being really upfront with what we're doing, one of the things I'm adding to my contracts for 2025 is having a clause in there that makes it really clear that I'm going to ask for consent before I use one of these tools on anyone's novel. And many of my clients are going to say no. In fact, I would say probably the majority of them really don't want me using any of these tools, and that's absolutely fine. And I think on the other side, just authors coming to me, they can tell me, okay, well, I've used this tool for outlining or I've used it to, you know, certainly some authors are not as good at dialogue or they're not. Not as good at setting or they don't think about smell or whatever. They have a weakness that they know that they're trying to compensate for. And they can use one of those tools to provide ideas. Just so I, you know, if I know how they're using it, then I can again, make sure that human element doesn't get lost. And we're finding all of the opportunities to get their own voice in there and get rid of that kind of AI flatness that can creep in.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah.

[Kristin Tait]

Interesting times indeed. But I mean, it's so funny because I feel. Well, we've been working together quite a few years now, and I use the tools more and more for different things. But as you know, I work with you on every book and every short story, and I don't feel like there's any detriment to the process. I feel like it's almost. It's improved my. A lot of areas of my business and my writing. And using ProWritingAid, I hope, takes a bit of the basics off your shoulders so you can focus on the more interesting side of editing and the more human element side of editing, I guess.

Yeah. And I. I think this is kind of where we're heading, where a lot of these tools are actually not very good at. You know, some of the things like commas and all of that. And there are a lot of false positives. So I actually don't. I don't use those as an editor myself because it. It slows me down. If an author uses prowritingaid before they come to me, that's fantastic because just like you said, then I can focus on the really important stuff like line editing. That's where the real magic of editing comes. And I think for a lot of editors, like, that's what they want to do as well, like commas, interest me, but they're not quite as thrilling as, like, taking a line that's, you know, like a little clunky or just flat or the author's missing an opportunity to introduce, like, a really beautiful parallelism or, or sharpen up a metaphor. Like, that's where the real magic comes. And that's the stuff I love. And I know most editors love that as well. It's much more exciting than, I don't know, fixing typos. Like, the typos are important to me and I'm a perfectionist. And I want you to have a perfect book. But let's focus in on the stuff that's really about the art and let some of these tools do the heavy lifting in terms of things like fact checking and making sure, you know, for your books, in particular, checking quotations. There are things now that these tools just make so much faster and easier and we can kind of use our human, our very limited, like, human time to focus on the stuff that will make a big difference.

Fantastic. So where can people find you and your books and editing services online?

So my business is the Blue Garrett and you can find [e-mail] and then if you're interested in joining that novelty study book club, you can find me on [e-mail] Bluegarrett Fantastic.

Thanks so much for your time, Kristen. That was great.

That was a lot of fun.

[Joanna Penn]

So I hope you found today's episode interesting and that Kristen has inspired you for your writing craft in the year ahead. Please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on the YouTube channel. Comment on X at the Creative Pen or email me joannathecreativepen. And send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Next week, I'm talking about building a profitable author business with Joe Solari. And we'll also be talking about Author Nation, what went well, and changes for the 2025 conference, which I already have my ticket for. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time.

[Kristin Tait]

Thanks for listening today.

[Joanna Penn]

I hope you found it helpful.

[Kristin Tait]

Helpful?

[Joanna Penn]

You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] blueprint. If you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X hecreative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook fpenauthor. Happy writing and I'll see you next time.