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The Daily Beans
Refried Beans | Bootleg Grover (feat. Barb McQuade) | Feb 15, 2024
00:54:05
Thursday, February 15th, 2024 Last year, at least one person is dead after a shooting at the Kansas City Chiefs parade; two hearings take place today in the Trump crime saga - a Fulton County hearing on recusal of DA Fani Willis in Fulton County, and a hearing on motions to dismiss the hush money charges in Manhattan; Jack Smith has filed his response to Trump’s application for a stay with SCOTUS; Democrat Tom Suozzi wins George Santos’ old seat; the House has voted to impeach DHS Secretary Mayorkas; a cooperating witness testified at a preliminary hearing in the Michigan fraudulent electors case; House intel chair Mike Turner announced a briefing on a national security threat; the House Ethics Committee has obtained texts from Matt Gaetz. Plus Allison and Dana deliver your good news.
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- [00:00]
Alison Gill
MSW Media. Hey everybody, it's Ag. And welcome to Refried Beans, where we play an episode of the Daily Beans podcast from the same week either one, two or three years ago so we can see how far we've come. So please enjoy this episode from days gone by and note the date in the intro.
- [00:22]
Dana Goldberg
Refried beans.
- [00:23]
Alison Gill
I like refried beans.
- [00:24]
Dana Goldberg
That's why I want to try fried.
- [00:25]
Alison Gill
Beans, because maybe they're just as good.
- [00:26]
Dana Goldberg
And we're wasting time. Larry Daily Beans. Daily Beans. Daily Beans. Daily Beans.
- [00:45]
Alison Gill
Hello and welcome to the Daily beans for Thursday, February 15, 2024. Today, at least one person is dead after a shooting at the Kansas City Chiefs parade. Two hearings are taking place today in the Trump crime saga. A Fulton county hearing on recusal of DA Fani Willis and a hearing on motions to dismiss the hut money charges. In Manhattan, Jack Smith has filed his response to Trump's application for a stay with the Supreme Court. Democrat Tom Suozzi won George Santos old seat in New York's third District. The House has voted to impeach DHS Secretary Mayorkas. A cooperating witness has testified at a preliminary hearing in the Michigan fraudulent electors case. House Intelligence chair Mike Turner announced a briefing on a national security threat. And the House Ethics Committee has obtained text messages from Matt Gaetz. I'm Alison Gill.
- [01:34]
Dana Goldberg
And I'm Dana Goldberg.
- [01:40]
Alison Gill
Hey, Dana. Happy Wednesday. If you can call it that.
- [01:43]
Dana Goldberg
Yeah, no, I know you're, you're about to touch on this, but it's been a, it's been a hard afternoon, harrowing.
- [01:49]
Alison Gill
Afternoon on the six year anniversary of the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland no less. One person is dead and 10 to 15 others are injured, including eight children now being treated for gunshot wounds after a person opened fire at the end of the parade celebrating the Chiefs super bowl win in Kansas City, Missouri. Missouri has some of the most lax gun laws in the nation. Charlotte Clymer, good friend and activist, tweeted this list out. No background checks for private sales, no permit required for concealed carry, no permit required for open carry, no license required for gun owners, no firearm registration requirements and no assault weapons law. And no magazine capacity restrictions.
- [02:33]
Dana Goldberg
Jesus.
- [02:34]
Alison Gill
One man reported he saw the pro gun governor of Missouri, Mike Parson, running for his life in the crowd. And so I hope that that makes a difference here. So often we see that change doesn't happen until it happens. Something happens to you. And I think I saw Jamel Hill on Ari Melbourne talking about maybe that this since this was at a sporting event celebration that maybe, maybe now they'll consider this hitting bottom and want to do something. I don't know. I really don't know.
- [03:08]
Dana Goldberg
I don't know what it's going to take. I don't.
- [03:10]
Alison Gill
I don't either. And then, you know, if it does, then what does that say about all the children and everyone who has died up to this point? You know, Jeez. All right. In Trump crime news, two hearings today. We talked about one in Manhattan where a judge will consider Trump's motions to dismiss the 34 felony counts against him in the hush money case, which is being pitched by Alvin Bragg, the DA as an election interference case, as it should be. And then also a hearing about recusing DA Fani Willis and her office in Fulton county with those alleged, you know, accusations.
- [03:47]
Dana Goldberg
Yep. The conflicts of interest and a conflict.
- [03:49]
Alison Gill
Of interest, which I don't think that they have to, to recuse her. But we'll see how that hearing goes. You can watch it on television. And we will cover those hearings on next week's episode of Clean up on all 45. And Dana. Jack Smith has filed his response to Trump's stay application. He wants to stay the D.C. circuit Court's mandate, the ruling on immunity. Trump does. And Jack Smith filed six days early. He was given a week and he did it in 24 hours. And it's exactly what I thought it would be based on that awesome newsletter that I reported on here on the beans from Steve Vladek. He's a professor at University of Texas School of Law. Jack Smith says Trump fails to meet the standards to grant a stay, especially the rule that says you should only grant a stay if you think Trump is likely to win. He is not. Jack Smith says there's no way he's likely to win. So Jack Smith asks SCOTUS to just deny the stay. That would, of course, put the D.C. trial back on track, would lift the stay off the proceedings in the the Judge Chutkan trial. But Jack Smith says if you really want to rule on this for, you know, because you think it's important or you want to have your say and you want to deny this immunity yourself, please treat this application for stay as a petition for cert and set an expedited briefing schedule giving, I think, 10 days for Trump and his amici, his friends of the court to file their stuff, another seven days for the DOJ to respond. And then if you want to have Trump respond to that, give him five days. That would put arguments in March, which means a decision could be rendered before the end of the term in June. So we'll go over all that on the Jack podcast this weekend. It's an incredible filing from Jack Smith and I think it's worth tuning in to Andy and I breaking it down as well as Trump's filing. That'll all be this Sunday. So that's what's happening in the Trump crime news, at least.
- [05:48]
Dana Goldberg
Thank you, AG. And we have some good news today coming out of New York. Democrat Tom Suozzi won a special election for a U.S. house seat in New York on Tuesday, coming out on top in a politically mixed suburban district in a victory that could lift his party's hopes heading into a fiercely contested presidential election later this year. He beat his mag opponent by eight points. Polls said he was only up by one. Don't listen to the polls. Just get out and vote. Eight points to capture George Santos's old seat. Yep. A seat he won, by the way, by eight points. There was a 16 point flip on this race. That is huge.
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Alison Gill
It was pretty incredible to watch those results come in and to watch everybody in the media go, oh shit, we were wrong again. And, but you know, they, they did pretty well this morning. I thought this morning they would bring out some other poll that shows that, you know, Biden is, whatever, not good or how this hurts Biden. You know how they do? Oh, we had a huge Democratic victory and so how this, how, how, how will Biden suffer? So they, they did, they did pretty good this morning talking about how he won by a larger margin than expected. Although I think Politico's headline was that swazi edged out.
- [07:06]
Dana Goldberg
Oh, come on.
- [07:08]
Alison Gill
Yeah, edged out by over eight points. But okay, so yeah, that's excellent. There was also, I think in Assembly District 140 or something over in Pennsylvania. Now all of both houses, state houses in Pennsylvania and the governorship are all Democrats. So they have the, they have what we've, what I call the Michigan trifecta where everybody's blue. Love it with that particular election. So every single election we've had is just completely outperforming the polls. And so I just want everybody to kind of keep that in mind. And you know, also something interesting. Suozzi ran on the border. The, the failure to enact border legislation. And I'll talk about that in a little bit. So it kind of gives Democrats, puts them on the offense, on the border, which is good. The voters aren't stupid. You know, they.
- [08:01]
Dana Goldberg
Wonderful.
- [08:02]
Alison Gill
They know that. Well, you know what the Republicans did about the border. All right. Later in the show. I'll also be talking with Barb McQuaid about her new book. Yeah. On combating disinformation in America. Her book is called Attack from Within. It comes out February 27, but it's available for pre sale now, wherever you get your book. So we're going to talk to our friend Barb in a little bit. But first we have a lot of news. Let's hit the hot notes. Hot notes. First up from Scott Wong at NBC. House Republicans Tuesday night muscled through a vote to impeach Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas over his handling of the border exactly one week after their first attempt to impeach him totally collapsed in spectacular fashion on the floor. The vote, Dana, 214 to 213.
- [08:48]
Dana Goldberg
I know.
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Alison Gill
With three Republicans again opposing impeachment, Mayorkas is just the second cabinet secretary in U.S. history to be impeached and the first in nearly 150 years. President Joe Biden blasted House Republicans immediately after the vote. History will not look kindly on House Republicans for their blatant act of unconstitutional partisanship that has targeted an honorable public servant in order to play petty political games. That's what he said in a statement. Now the matter now heads to the Senate, which will almost certainly vote to acquit Mayorkas given that two thirds would be needed to convict and remove him and the Dems are in the majority in that chamber. Once the House impeachment managers, and by the way, I've heard Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to be one of them, which is hilarious. This is going to be entertaining as even if they lose and it's unconstitutional and stupid and sad, we get to see that. But once she transmits the articles to the Senate, the Senate would be required. Required to hold an impeachment trial. It's expected the articles would be quickly dismissed or that the trial would be sent to a special committee that would hear the evidence from the impeachment managers and report it to the full Senate. That's of note. Like I said, Republicans rushed this bullshit vote hours before Suozzi won George Santos seat. Had they waited another minute, they'd have lost this vote a second time.
- [10:11]
Dana Goldberg
Oh, wow.
- [10:12]
Alison Gill
And like I said, Suozzi won on the fact that Republicans tanked the border bill, among other things. So again, voters seem to understand that Republicans can't govern. I think that the Republicans have lost the border now as an issue because of their, because of their idiotic antics. Right. And I think, you know, it's worth noting that they subpoenaed Mayorkas and said you have to get here in a week. And he was like, I'm gonna be in Mexico discussing border stuff. How about two, three weeks from now? No, it has to be now. And so since they couldn't get him in in time before this special election in New York, they tried to impeach him because they thought Al Green was going to be in the hospital under the knife. And that failed because he came in last minute like a badass motherfucker and said no. And so they had to get this done without testimony from Mayorkas and before Swazi could be sworn in.
- [11:15]
Dana Goldberg
It's such a ridiculous stunt. It's gonna be embarrassing, too. Marjorie Taylor Greene's gonna embarrass herself in front of the entire Senate.
- [11:21]
Alison Gill
It has to be. And the only way that the Republicans can redeem themselves is to either pass that border bill language or, you know, or just go fuck off forever. I mean, those are the only two things. They're two choices. I've decided.
- [11:37]
Dana Goldberg
Oh, my God. Thank you, ag. This one's from ABC News. The White House national security advisor and leading lawmakers on Capitol Hill sought to allay public concerns on Wednesday after the House Intelligence Committee chairman warned of, quote, a national security threat related to a destabilizing foreign military capability so serious that President Joe Biden should declassify all information about it. I know, right? Two sources familiar with deliberations on Capitol Hill said the intelligence has to do with Russia wanting to put a nuclear weapon into space. This would not be to drop a nuclear weapon onto earth, but rather to possibly use against satellites. Still, quote, it is very concerning and very sensitive. This is from one source calling it a big deal. While not addressing the subject directly. Multiple members of Congress quickly described the issue as serious without stoking public alarm. Quote, we are going to work together to address this matter as we do all sensitive matters that are classified. That was from House Speaker Mike Johnson. That's what he told reporters on Capitol Hill. He went on, we just want to assure everyone steady hands are at the wheel. That's not fucking. Does not make me feel any better.
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Alison Gill
For Mike Johnson, the steady hands of Lauren Boebert in a theater.
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Dana Goldberg
Now, Rep. Jim Himes, a Connecticut Democrat and the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, echoed that in his own statement, calling the warning significant but not a cause for panic. Another quote, as to whether more can be declassified about this issue. That is a worthwhile discussion, but it's not a discussion to be had in public.
- [13:16]
Alison Gill
Again.
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Dana Goldberg
That was from Himes. Earlier. On Wednesday, Ohio Rep. Mike Turner, the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, said in a statement that his panel had, quote, made available to all members of Congress information concerning a serious national security threat. Quote, I am requesting that President Joe Biden declassify all information relating to this threat so that Congress, the administration and our allies can openly discuss. And Putin. Yep. Can openly discuss the actions necessary to respond to this threat. I mean, this is ridiculous.
- [13:48]
Alison Gill
That's why he wants this declassified. He wants, he wants, you know, Russia, Ron Johnson and everybody who, who, you know, Rand Paul and of course, all the, what, 60 plus House Republicans who work for, for Vladimir Putin to be able to tell. Tell Putin what we have on. On him. I mean, of course, seems like to.
- [14:08]
Dana Goldberg
Me, I don't know why they'd think that people can't see through this shit. Turner actually said he was making information on the matter available in a secure location to all members of the House in accordance with chamber rules. A letter sent to members of Congress from Turner and Himes obtained by ABC News, indicated the threat is linked to a, quote, destabilizing foreign military capability that should be known by all congressional policymakers. The White House's National Security Advisor, Jake Sullivan, said at Wednesday's press briefing that it had already scheduled a classified meeting with congressional leadership before Turner's request. They're like, we've got this and this is not how this is going to go down.
- [14:47]
Alison Gill
Yeah. Sullivan seemed really confused as to why Mike Turner would announce this when they had a meeting scheduled the next day in his press conference. And it seems to me that just announcing it could. Could threaten sources and methods because of a recent visit to Kiev.
- [15:07]
Dana Goldberg
Yeah.
- [15:08]
Alison Gill
Regarding this kind of thing. So just a weird, really weird public announcement about Russia capabilities. All right, next up from the Associated Press, a fake certificate of votes was submitted to the U.S. senate after Michigan's 2020 presidential election. And that's according to an official who testified Tuesday during a preliminary hearing for six people facing forgery and other charges for allegedly serving as false electors. The purported certificate of votes did not match an official document signed by Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer and featuring the Michigan state seal. That's what Dan Schwager, who served in 2020 and 2021 as general counsel to the Secretary of the Senate, said. We could tell it was not authorized. It was fake. That's what he said in Lansing District Court. Michigan Attorney General Dana Nestle has charged 15 Republicans in this case. Investigators have said the group signed a document during a meeting at a Michigan Republican headquarters in December 2020, falsely stating they were the state's duly elected and qualified electors. The defendants have insisted that their actions were not illegal even though Joe Biden won Michigan by 155,000 votes over Trump, which was a result confirmed by GOP led state investigations. In 2021, fake electors in Michigan and six other battleground states sent certificates to Congress falsely declaring Trump the winner of the 2020 presidential election in their states, despite confirmed results showing he lost. Michigan, Georgia and Nevada have charged the fake electors. Republicans who served as false electors in Wisconsin agreed to a legal settlement in which they conceded that Biden won the election and that their efforts were part of an attempt to improperly overturn the results. Schwager said Tuesday the false Michigan document arrived January 5, 2021 to the U.S. senate's Mail Services and that he reviewed it a few days later. The Michigan one came in a little bit late, so it was added to the collection of the other fake certificates, he said. Preliminary hearings don't involve a jury. They're just for the judge to determine if there's sufficient evidence to substantiate the charges. The hearing for the six defendants who are having their cases heard together was scheduled to resume Wednesday. A seventh defendant named Kenneth Thompson had his case postponed because his attorney didn't show up.
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Dana Goldberg
Whoops.
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Alison Gill
The other eight defendants will have preliminary examinations at later dates. Ken Chesbrough is slated to testify. He I think he's cooperating there and probably in every other state. I know he helped Wisconsin with their settlement. You know, it was interesting, Dana. This guy said, you know how the Republicans were like we were tricked. We were asked to sign in for a meeting and then we didn't know we were signing this certificate. The guy testifying today was like, yeah, no, that's wrong. They were told that they were signing an alternate slate of electors that wasn't certified by the governor. So they knew. They knew.
- [18:10]
Dana Goldberg
All right. This last story brings me some joy. I'm not going to lie. Even though you can file it under Gross. He's a pig. This is from ABC News. Congressional House ethics investigators have obtained text messages allegedly showing that a few months after first joining Congress, Florida Rep. Matt Gaetz asked a young woman who at the time had received payments for sex from Gates then close friend Joel Greenberg to join him and others on a three day trip to the Florida Keys. This is in May of 2017. Okay. This is from multiple sources at ABC News. In the alleged text messages described exclusively to ABC News, the then freshman congressman appeared to message a woman who ABC News is not identifying, asking if she would fly on a private plane to the Florida Keys for a trip with Gates, three other women. Three other women and one other man. And I quote, this is the text message. Hey. Any interest in flying on a private plane to the keys? May 19th to the 21st, Gates allegedly wrote to this woman, who was older than 21 at the time. That's according to multiple sources familiar with the messages. Gates then allegedly said that the trip would feature two guys, four girls, a very high quality, adventurous group, according to the messages, which had not previously been reported, by the way.
- [19:28]
Alison Gill
Adventures like ziplining. Yeah.
- [19:30]
Dana Goldberg
You know.
- [19:31]
Barb McQuaid
Yeah.
- [19:31]
Dana Goldberg
Or other things.
- [19:32]
Alison Gill
Jet skis.
- [19:33]
Dana Goldberg
Uh huh. And according to the text, the woman replied, yeah, I'm in. Well, Gates allegedly replied, fantastic. As is true, with all time you spend with me, it'll be fun and chill. You have a passport. Sources familiar with the events told ABC News the woman ultimately declined the 2017 trip. The messages, if accurate, mark the first known example of alleged direct private communication between Florida congressman and a woman who his one time close associate, Joel Greenberg told investigators he had been paying to have sex with other men, according to documents and interviews with multiple sources. A photo of Gates and the woman had also been turned over to the committee, according to sources who were briefed on this matter. And according to other sources, the photo, which is dated May 19 of 2017, shows the woman smiling in a selfie next to Gates, who is wearing a shirt that reads, quote, if you think research is expensive, try disease. What the fuck? A quote from health activist Mary W. Lasker. According to bank and Venmo. Venmo Venmo records. Hilarious. Reviewed by ABC News, the woman had previously received multiple payments from Greenberg, which multiple sources tell ABC News were for the woman to have sex at parties with Greenberg's friends. Since the start of 2024, the Ethics Committee has contacted numerous witnesses, including Greenberg and the congressman's ex girlfriend. Federal investigators previously sought answers about a separate trip in 2018 that Gates allegedly took to the Bahamas with women who Greenberg said he had been paying for sex. And we're looking to determine if Gates himself was provided travel and entertainment in exchange for political favors. That's according to people familiar with the investigation. House investigators have conducted at least one interview with the witness who was allegedly part of that trip. That's what sources told ABC News. It's unclear if the text messages regarding the planned 2017 Florida Keys trip reported to that news station were also scrutinized by federal investigators. Yeah, we just, I just love that they did not let this lie. And I hope the son of a goes down for something.
- [21:51]
Alison Gill
Well, he's not playing ball. Right. So this is what he gets, I guess. I still have no idea why they didn't charge him federally. The bribery statutes were gutted by the Supreme Court in 2016. Makes it really hard to prove bribery.
- [22:11]
Dana Goldberg
Sure.
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Alison Gill
But soliciting sex with minors for money, fake IDs, like, I don't. I don't get it. And we won't ever know because there wasn't a special prosecutor appointed, so.
- [22:26]
Dana Goldberg
Right.
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Alison Gill
They don't get to write big old long reports. They just. They just come out with a statement saying, we're not charging him. Thanks. And we have no idea.
- [22:34]
Dana Goldberg
Yeah.
- [22:35]
Alison Gill
All right, everybody, we're going to take a quick break. I'll be back to talk to Barb McQuaid, who is amazing and has a new book out called Attack from Within. You must pre order. It now comes out February 27th. And then after that, we'll have the good news. Everybody stick around. We'll be right back after these messages. We'll be right back. Hey, everybody. Welcome back. I'm happy to be joined today by someone who's been a guest on many of the podcasts that I host and co host, including this one. She's a former U.S. attorney, she's a Michigan law professor, a Detroit Tigers fan, and she has a new book coming out February 27th. It's available for pre order now. It's called Attack from How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America. Please welcome Barb McQuaid. Hey, Barb.
- [23:25]
Barb McQuaid
Hi, A.G. thanks so much for having me on.
- [23:27]
Alison Gill
No problem. It's my pleasure. I haven't seen you in a while, I feel like. And so I'm glad I get to talk to you today, especially about this incredible book that you've written. I am also, like, working currently on a proposal, and the title eludes me, but your title is dead on. And I wanted to ask you about, I guess, the process of coming up with the title Attack from Within and what it means to this particular book because it's so powerful.
- [23:54]
Barb McQuaid
Yeah, thanks. Well, I didn't do it alone, and I came up with it along with an editor who helped me, and we went through a lot of different possibilities. But what, you know, his guidance to me was, you know, really try to strip away all the extra. And what is it that you're really trying to focus on? So, you know, it really is about disinformation, but it's more than that. I want to help people understand what it is, its history, how it's used. But mostly, I want people to realize that this is an attack on America, and it's coming from our fellow Americans. I got interested in this topic. I teach national security law. I worked as a national security prosecutor when Robert Mueller revealed the depths of Russian disinformation in the 2016 presidential election. But since that time, it has really evolved from an attack from outside our borders to an attack from within. And so that's how we came up with that title. And, you know, how disinformation is sabotaging America. I talk about how it's harming democracy in the form of voter suppression laws, how it is harming public safety in the forms of threats against public officials at every level, and how it is harming the rule of law by driving vigilante justice. When people feel like there is corruption in their courts and in their law enforcement, they feel like they have to take the law into their own hands, which is very dangerous for all of us.
- [25:21]
Alison Gill
I think that the. That the thread you draw through all of these things leading up to where we are now is so important. You just mentioned, you know, starting with the Mueller investigation. You know, we found out later, and it was kind of a suppressed story, that a lot of the redactions in the Mueller report were inappropriately made. And therefore, we get to this point where we don't exactly know at the outset the breadth and scope of Russian interference in our elections. And that, of course, is something that came from within. And you draw that out and through this timeline that I think is so important. And now we end up where we are now. How are we? Because we're facing it now, aren't we? And we still are.
- [26:09]
Barb McQuaid
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you talk about the timeline and the Mueller information. I know you were a rapt and careful reader of the Mueller report, as was I. And some of the things that I learned there was, you know, the ways in which social media in particular, can be used to spread disinformation. I'm sure you'll recall some of the things that Robert Mueller found was that Russian operators were calling themselves names like Blacktivist and United Muslims of America and Tennessee GOP and Heart of Texas. And they built followers of people within those groups by posing as members of those groups, when, in fact, it's, you know, some Russian kid in a hoodie in Moscow. But people didn't know that. And so they read these things, and, you know, Blacktivist was urging voters to stay home instead of voting for Hillary Clinton because she doesn't care about you. And 10 GOP actually hired a real American woman to put on a Hillary Clinton mask and an orange jumpsuit and ride in a cage in a parade. And so we were being manipulated by Russians and we didn't even know it because of the anonymity on the Internet that is permitted. And then the bots that pop up to support it with likes and shares. And so what started as a Russian disinformation campaign is now being used by American operatives to spread disinformation. And they use some of the same techniques by false Personas and, you know, pretending to be people that they're not. But there are also other things that we are seeing now with, you know, lies and persuading people that things that are just not true. You know, Donald Trump, of course, is the master of all of these things. And one of the things I think he does is he tries to set a stage for, without making an overt lie, making a statement based on a false premise. So I'll give you an example. Just recently, after the D.C. circuit Court of Appeals ruled against him in the presidential immunity issue that he's not immune from criminal prosecution. He posts on social media things that say, preserve presidential immunity. What the court has done today is to take away an important power of the President. That's not what they did at all. They decided that, you know, he was just wrong. There is no presidential immunity when it comes to criminal prosecution. And so by reframing it in such a way as to suggest that the court has changed the status quo in some new way that is dangerous. He is trying to create a fear out of something that didn't already exist. And he's trying to make it look like this court is doing something radical and new and different, when in fact they are just rejecting your made up defense. And so it's really interesting. I think it really requires critical thinking. And I hope that by exposing some of these tactics in my book, the public will more easily recognize them and be able to defeat them instead of being manipulated by them.
- [29:14]
Alison Gill
Yeah, and let's talk, let's talk about the public because, you know, the government pushed back in their responses and their briefs in that immunity case, saying, look, you've always been not under the threat of, but there's been potential for prosecution and impeachment there this whole time. It's always been there. Ford wouldn't have pardoned Nixon if he weren't vulnerable to criminal prosecution. You yourself bring up the fact of impeachment when you're trying to argue your weird double jeopardy through the impeachment judgment clause. But you yourself understand, particularly you who've been impeached twice, that presidents are vulnerable to impeachment. And so, yeah, to, to, to say that this immunity has always been there and that we're taking it away, but the public is the thing. Right. And I'm so glad that you addressed this in the book. I have long asked why we as Americans are so vulnerable to this disinformation. You know, I think you and I had a discussion way back in the, in the Mueller, she wrote days about this kind of disinformation specifically and how Ukraine must be looking at us saying, what, are you new?
- [30:31]
Barb McQuaid
Like, you're new around here, aren't you?
- [30:33]
Alison Gill
Yeah. Boy, you really don't quite understand how this goes down. But you break this down in the book, why we are specifically vulnerable to this kind of disinformation.
- [30:42]
Barb McQuaid
Yeah, well, one of the reasons I think the United States in particular is vulnerable to disinformation is because we so cherish free speech and we don't want to erect any rules that would silence people from their free speech. And I agree with that. We don't want to do that. But we might need to regulate some of the social media platform processes. We might need to rein in campaign finance spending, and we might need to educate the public about some of these tactics that are used. But one of the things I think that I raise in the book is many of these tactics have been used for decades, if not centuries. You know, using fear. Oh, you're going to lose everything that you have demonizing other people. You know, there's us and there's them, and they want to take what's yours. And so you better side with us. Something that's known to debaters as the either or fallacy, which is there's only two sides to everything. You're either with us or against us. Red team or blue team. Republican or Democrat. Conservative or radical maga. Radical Democrat. And in fact, the world's far more complicated than that.
- [31:51]
Alison Gill
Right.
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Barb McQuaid
There's room for nuance. And by pushing this message of there are only two camps and then demonizing the other camp to make that camp appear to be a completely untenable choice. The goal is to bring people over to your side. But of course, what happens is we lose all appreciation for nuance and, and all willingness to compromise. You have to have ideological purity or else you are cast off as, as a traitor. And that's just not a healthy way to advance society. It's, it's the reason we've gotten nothing done in Congress. It's because that unless you give me everything I want, I refuse to play ball with you. And that just isn't a way to get things done.
- [32:33]
Alison Gill
Yeah, we just saw it with the, the border slash non border foreign aid slash non foreign aid debacles.
- [32:39]
Barb McQuaid
Yeah, great, great example.
- [32:40]
Alison Gill
Been going around for the last three months. It was, you know, well, you know the story. We started out with a, with a foreign aid bill. Republicans said no, it has to have border stuff. So we said, okay, and put border stuff. And now they say, oh, we're not going to pass this clean foreign, we're not going to pass this border stuff. We want different border stuff or something. But then they freely admitted, and here's where I find it's very different from the Mueller days. They're freely admitting that they don't want to solve these problems because the problems are better for them to have in an election year. They're just kind of saying that out loud now. And so I think we're kind of maybe entering into this whole new space where, you know, the authoritarian tactics used to be subsumed in hidden language and you know, but now it's just straight up, no, we want to hold on to power. So even though we are trying to convince you that the others at the border are an emergency, we aren't going to do anything to fix it because we need the problem.
- [33:41]
Barb McQuaid
And that really is part of this disinformation game which is by othering the other side and creating the false idea that there are only two sides. Your tribal affiliation matters more than the logic of any policy. And so our team wants this thing and therefore and their team wants that other thing and therefore we will fight to the death for our team. And our identity is so important to us. We want to be part of our identity. We don't want to be accused of being part of that other side that we now have been convinced is so awful and we will do anything we can to signal our allegiance to our team. And so it pushes this idea of purity that I better want this thing. The other thing ag that I learned that's important is internal consistency doesn't matter. All that matters is winning. And we as humans are wired to win arguments. It's how we have survived in society. It doesn't matter so much whether we are right. What matters is that we win arguments. That's what put it puts us at the top of the pack. That's what means we get to eat, we get the food, we get the shelter, that we win and so we're wired that way. We want to win. We are stubborn, we refuse to change our minds, and we refuse to show weakness. And even if we believe maybe we're wrong, we refuse to admit it because we are wired to win. And I think Donald Trump and the maga right, understand that, and they push that on people, that it matters more about being strong and winning than it matters about what is the right solution for America.
- [35:19]
Alison Gill
And that's the hook, isn't it? That's what draws us in. Because we talk about this a lot and this is, you know, in your book, in the solutions section. And I don't want to give away too much, I don't want to give away the farm here. But like, especially on social media, if you read something and it elicits an emotional response out of you, you want to argue that point and then you are drawn into that probably completely useless argument, but you still, like you said, were wired to want to win it. But, you know, I've long talked about, folks on social media, if something makes you mad, stop and think about why for a second and where it's coming from. Talk a little bit more about that and some of the other solutions to combating disinformation and getting drawn in.
- [36:08]
Barb McQuaid
Yeah, that's a really good point. So there is something called reflexive control, which is sometimes people bait us just to get us to react in a certain way. If I say something really outrageous online about a particular group, you know, about women, about certain minority groups, I know that there are people who are going to jump all over that and it's deliberate. They know you're going to react in that way. They want you to react in that way. And so I think that sometimes, you know, it's a no win situation because you can't leave certain statements unrebutted and leave them out there. On the other hand, you know, getting you outraged is part of the game. To show that, look at how hysterical you are when I engage in conversation. And so I think pausing, all of us pausing and reflecting before we respond is really useful. I, since I've written the book, I have found myself many times, you know, tapping out a tweet or something in response and then say, you know, am I really contributing to the dialog here or am I just adding a little more heat to the fire?
- [37:08]
Alison Gill
Right.
- [37:08]
Barb McQuaid
Is it more, is it more heat or is it more light? And if it's just more heat, maybe I should refrain from doing that. But I think one of the policy solutions here is we saw a Big uptick in the vitriol online when, as we learned from whistleblower Francis Huygens, that Facebook was deliberately pushing, using an algorithm to push outrage. They, you know, they had the dislike or hate button. And so those are the feeds that came to the top. Those are the messages that came to the top of your feed. And the reason they did it is that they believe that the. The more outraged you were, the longer you would stay on the platform, which was good for their advertising dollars that is manipulating their users. And so perhaps we could have rules that did not regulate content, but did regulate the algorithms to say, either you can't do that, you know, just push outrage, be in the business of peddling outrage, or if you do so, you must disclose your algorithms so at least your customers know that you're trying to manipulate them, and people can choose to take their business elsewhere.
- [38:08]
Alison Gill
Like a warning. Yeah. And now we. We see it on Twitter where they've stripped away our blue check marks for just regular verification purposes and given them to those who like to cause outrage. And now they're getting paid to do that, the more interactions they get. And so when you see something, particularly on Twitter or Facebook, that angers you. Understand. Yeah. To know that somebody is getting paid for you to be mad at what that person said, it makes you think twice about it. And that kind of baiting has happened to me personally on social media. Someone will ask me a very specific question about what era I served under when I was in the military. And my reply would be, first Gulf War. Then they would take that reply and put it out all over the place and say, look, she's claiming to be a war combat veteran, and she's stealing valor and all this other stuff, so they know what they're doing. And then when you just try to defend yourself, then it just goes. It just devolves from there. And we see it happen constantly. How do we combat the lack of nuance before I let you go? Because that is something that is so very frustrating. I remember when we were doing the Mueller. The Mueller report came out, and I said, it's too bad we can't fit this thing on a bumper sticker, because there's just no way to without long form kind of media like this, like you and I are doing right now, to convey everything and all the complexities.
- [39:38]
Barb McQuaid
Yeah, no, it is challenging. And, you know, didn't you imagine that when the Internet was first invented, we'd be so much smarter because we have access to all this information? And instead, I think we're dumber because there's so much that we just give up and we rely on proxies to tell us what to think. So I think number one, we need leaders who are committed to uniting us instead of dividing us. We have seen leaders use this formula, the Donald Trump formula, and others who are copycats to try to stoke division. And we as voters need to reject that. That's just not an okay place to be. That's number one. But then all of us ourselves can do things. I think to combat all of this, I think we need to think twice before we, you know, put the snarky response online. And it's very tempting when someone says something to insult their intelligence or, you know, to try to own them with something snarky. And you know, even this won't be popular probably with your listeners. But you know, Joe Biden did this thing where it's just, just the way I drew it up, where he's got like the red eyes, which is hilarious. And it was, I'm sure it was really funny when they sat around the table and talked about it. But I think we have to refrain, we have to like self check on those kinds of things because it just feeds it, right? I mean it's, it's kind of owning the opponents. I mean it's pointing out how ridiculous it is, I guess. But I think every time we participate in that, we are giving license to other people to try to one up us. And I think that be the change you want to see in the world. Don't just pile on. And so funny as it was, I think it was contributing to this online community where everybody just sort of trolls each other.
- [41:16]
Alison Gill
Yeah, no, I, I, I love that tweet. I do.
- [41:20]
Barb McQuaid
It's funny. I can't say it's not funny. It's funny.
- [41:23]
Alison Gill
It was, it was funny. Sometimes you gotta weigh the funniness against, you know, any kind of repercussions. But this book is available now. It's called Attack from Within. It's available wherever you can pre order books. I highly recommend everybody get this. It's got so many important lessons, well, history and then again so many important lessons on what we can do to help combat this disinformation, misinformation and how that fits into the bigger picture of combating, you know, authoritarianism when it is afoot. Because the media and books are usually the first thing to go in a dictatorship. And I think we all have a little can, you know, if you're always wondering, like what can I do to help these Little things are things that we can do to help. Do you have any, anything else, like, particularly alarming that you learned in the research for this book before, before we get out of here today?
- [42:17]
Barb McQuaid
Yeah. One last thing, and that is something that is exists now in Putin's Russia. And of course he's the master because he learned the tradecraft in the kgb. But one of the things in Putin's Russia is trying to pitch people on this idea and they worry that it's starting to seep into American culture. Truth doesn't matter. There's no consistency in anything that comes out of the Putin administration. Instead, there's constant message that, look, everybody's corrupt, everybody does it, and truth is for suckers. If all you want is truth, that sounds noble and good, but if you really want to get what's coming, get what's yours, then you should follow me, the one who will make you the richest. That's the leader that you should choose. Don't worry about truth. Everybody's a crook. Just get what you can, when you can. And I think that is so damaging because it causes people to think, well, politics doesn't matter. My vote doesn't matter. You become angry and then cynical and then numb. And that is right where an authoritarian wants you to be disengaged from politics. And so how do we fight back? By staying engaged in politics and remembering that truth matters.
- [43:22]
Alison Gill
Yes. And self care. Plenty of. Plenty of self care so that she can stay in the game. Barbara, thank you so much, everybody. Again, available for pre sale everywhere. It's called Attack from Within. How disinformation is sabotaging America comes out on February 27th. I appreciate your time today. Barb McQuaid.
- [43:38]
Barb McQuaid
Thanks so much, everybody.
- [43:39]
Alison Gill
Stick around. We'll be right back with the good news. Welcome back. It's time for the good news.
- [43:51]
Dana Goldberg
Who likes good news?
- [43:53]
Alison Gill
Everyone. Then good news, everyone. Good news. And if you have any good news confessions, corrections, Murfreesboro Corrections. Any. I'm never gonna.
- [44:09]
Dana Goldberg
No more Murphysboro.
- [44:11]
Alison Gill
I'm never gonna live it down. If you, if you have a shout out to a loved one or a small business in your area or your small business, send that to us. A self shout out. We love those. If you have a shout out for some great care you've received at the VA Health system, I want to hear about that. Definitely want to hear student debt relief stories. Those are incredible. It's just they blow my mind every time you guys send those in.
- [44:34]
Dana Goldberg
Same.
- [44:35]
Alison Gill
It's just, it's so beautiful to like, I can Feel the the weight being lifted off people's shoulders when you send those stories. Whoopi stories, blankie stories, stuffed animal stories, frog orgies, baby pictures, what the fark is in your ark. Anything you want to send to us at all, send it to DailyBeansPod.com and click on Contact. First up, Kevin Pronouns he and they color me confused every time you mention Judge Amit Mehta. And what I hear is the friendly atheist Hemat Mehta. Maybe I should stop listening at 1.7 times speed 1.75 times speed before I start mixing up my holy doctrines and my legal ones.
- [45:12]
Dana Goldberg
Wow, Kevin, I wonder what that sounds like. I wonder what we sound like at 1.75 speed Ag. I mean, I know I speak very quickly as to you, sometimes I can't even imagine him someone's listening to it twice.
- [45:22]
Alison Gill
Yeah, dang. 1.75. I'm gonna have to check that out. I've listen to us at half speed because it sounds like we're drunk and that's funny, but I'll have to check out 1.75.
- [45:33]
Dana Goldberg
All right, this one's from Lori. Pronouns she and her hi ag and dg. Long time listener, second time caller. I wanted to send two of these photos to Dana for a few months and finally got around to it. Since I have a fountain and bird feeders in my yard, I get all sorts of other critters. One night last summer my dogs noticed something in one of my fountains. It was a Colorado river toad. Very toxic to dogs. I think the toad thought it was a spa. In a bucket and over the wall he went. Next night he was back. Even though my yard is walled and blocked off in the bucket and down the street it went. Then a few weeks later I was filling one of the bird feeders and caught movement out of the corner of my eye in a mouse hotel trap a non kill. It was a little spadefoot toad. Cute, but needed to be released gently. On a different note, I believe a belated happy birthday to Allison. Did you know that you turned 4010 last year you were 49 and next year you'll be 40 11. My daughter, the one on the right in the last photo with Easter bunny were non believers, but it was a big cute bunny. Will turn 3010 in March and she's a great person that I'm so very proud of. Cheers to all front and back staff at the MSM podcast and thanks for the good news. The great news plus swearing. I have a bumper sticker on my car that says maybe swearing will Help. And it actually does.
- [46:54]
Alison Gill
I think so too. Frogs.
- [46:57]
Dana Goldberg
Those are toads. Look at the toad.
- [46:59]
Alison Gill
A little toad and then the Easter bunny. I like that. We're not. We're non believers in the Easter bunny. But.
- [47:07]
Dana Goldberg
But it was a big cute bunny.
- [47:10]
Alison Gill
It's great. The, the look on their. On everybody's face is like, yay, bunny.
- [47:16]
Dana Goldberg
I know. Oh, God. How long do we have to do this?
- [47:18]
Alison Gill
Yeah, that's great.
- [47:21]
Dana Goldberg
The older one is definitely like, okay. And the young one's like, all right, this is a cute bunny.
- [47:26]
Alison Gill
Yeah, it is a very cute bunny. All right, next up from Atomic era girl. Awesome pronoun. She and her. I'm listening. This is my mid mod stuff. Here's a photo of my childhood woobies. I still have them 50 years later. There's Beaky Buzzard, who peered down at me in my crib with his bright orange head and feet in neon yellow, blue and blue wings. My mom re sewed him and embroidered new eyes countless times. There's Churchy the turtle is named for a character in the comic strip Pogo who reminds us that quote, we have met the enemy and he is us, unquote. I loved him so much. My mom helped me make a needlepoint purse with his likeness and homemade Grover. I asked for a Grover doll before Sesame street sold merch. And once again, mom tenderly helped me make a Grover with navy knee socks and brass buttons. My mother taught me to be unique, creative, smart, brave and kind. A kind woman who expresses her opinion sometimes with swearing. Thanks, Bean Pod, for being the creative, brave, brilliant and kind people you are and providing the news we need in these times. Also with swearing. Keep doing the doing.
- [48:32]
Dana Goldberg
Atomic era girl. Your mother sounds a lot like my mother.
- [48:36]
Alison Gill
Homemade Grover is fucking killing me right now.
- [48:39]
Dana Goldberg
Yeah, I know. Me too. It's really impressive. That's amazing.
- [48:45]
Alison Gill
I love the turtle and the hand stitched purse.
- [48:48]
Dana Goldberg
I know.
- [48:49]
Alison Gill
That's so great. All right, you want to take the next two?
- [48:52]
Dana Goldberg
I'm happy to. Anonymous. Thank you for yours. No pronouns given. We've got a link. What is that ag right at the beginning? The rescue link. Yeah. This is Balto. Balto. A lab saluki mix and around 2 years old. He's very good boy who really needs a home or a foster. He's in a shelter in Riverside County, California. Can anybody listening help? And Balto is adorbs.
- [49:21]
Alison Gill
So cute.
- [49:22]
Dana Goldberg
Yep. Riverside County, California. There's going to be a link in the show notes. And this next one's from Mark R. Pronouns. He and him love the Tennessee town name fiasco. I live in Southern Indiana north of Louisville, Kentucky, and there are at least four different pronunciations of Louisville, several of which start with you putting a handful of marbles in your mouth and then attempt to say Louisville. Louisville. Louisville, Louisville. North of there is a town in Indiana called New Albany which is regularly chopped down to Nalbany, Indiana. Also names of great European cultural centers like Milan, pronounced with a very long I sound. Mylon. Myelin Mylon.
- [50:06]
Alison Gill
You got me.
- [50:07]
Dana Goldberg
And Versailles pronounced Versailles, of course. No, my thesis wasn't written about this, but the title of mine is quote Coordinating the Uncoordinated Giant Applying the Four Flows Model of Communicative Constitution of Organizations to the United States Weather Enterprise. Do that all again so I can do it better. Coordinating the Uncoordinated Giant Applying the four Flows Model of Communicative Constitution of Organizations to the United States weather Enterprise of 2019. That's when that came from. Podpet Tax My too furry Joan Crawford esque shoulder pounds. Aiden Sofie oh my gosh, this guy. Mark, you look so much like my brother in law. It is uncanny. You're adorable.
- [51:01]
Alison Gill
I love these cats too. And I I really now the young I didn't know that the United States Weather Enterprise wasn't a giant. Uncoordinated giant. I didn't know that.
- [51:13]
Dana Goldberg
Well, now you know.
- [51:14]
Alison Gill
Now I know the more you know. Q. Shooting Star all right, finally from Heather Pronoun. She and her Greeting Lovely ladies, greetings. I wanted to extend my heartfelt gratitude to Mary, whose mention of she's fly during Wednesday's Good News segment felt like divine intervention. The loss of my husband in December 2023.
- [51:33]
Dana Goldberg
Oh Heather, I'm sorry.
- [51:35]
Alison Gill
Following his stage four bladder cancer diagnosis in October of the same year. Shatter my world. He adored fly fishing and imparted his passion to me, giving us another activity we enjoyed. Unsure of how to handle his belongings, I stowed them away in a closet. Listening to Dylan's story resonated deeply, prompting me to connect with these remarkable women and embark on my own path to healing. After chatting with them, I've resolved to join a retreat and begin nurturing my wounded spirit. Following Dylan's health healing path, I will use my husband's gear and continue doing what we loved. Thanks to AG&DG for being part of my morning. Love you ladies. I'm including a picture of me and my amazing husband in one of our many fly fishing trips.
- [52:23]
Dana Goldberg
Oh Heather, I'm so sorry. And my goodness, what a handsome, handsome fella. You guys look so happy and I'm So glad you have found a way to carry this forward and find a community. And it's incredibly touching. I mean, today is Valentine's Day as we are recording this and this is a beautiful love story.
- [52:47]
Alison Gill
The amazing women from She's Fly reached out to us because so many listeners of the Beans contacted them.
- [52:54]
Dana Goldberg
That's amazing.
- [52:57]
Alison Gill
I love this. I love this show. I love this community. I love everything about it. I mean, we get news, we get a little swearing, but this is the stuff. This is the shit, right? This is the good stuff.
- [53:06]
Dana Goldberg
That's right.
- [53:08]
Alison Gill
That's why we're here. Thank you so much, Heather, and thanks to everybody for submitting your good news stories. If you have any good news stories you want to submit to us, you can do it by going to daily dailybeanspot.com and clicking on Contact. I also want to thank the intrepid, wonderful, fantastic, brilliant Umich law professor and Detroit Tigers fan Barb McQuaid for joining us today. Please, please get her book, Attack from Within. You can get it wherever books are sold and it comes out on February 27th. It's available for pre order now. Do you have any final thoughts before we get out of here today, my friend?
- [53:39]
Dana Goldberg
Not for today. Just sending love to the community.
- [53:42]
Alison Gill
Me too. Love to everybody on this Valentine's Day. And I know it's, you know, time tomorrow, but still love you. Everybody will be back in your ears tomorrow. Until then, please take care of yourselves, take care of each other, take care of the planet, take care of your mental health, take care of your family.
- [53:56]
Dana Goldberg
Vote blue over Q and take your entire family with you. I've been AG and I've been dg.
- [54:01]
Alison Gill
And them's the beans.
- [54:03]
Dana Goldberg
Refried bean.
- [54:03]
Barb McQuaid
I like refried beans.