Amanda Sturgel (14:36)

It's no surprise that newsmakers try to manipulate the audience. They want you to believe that they are the one holding the line, and they'll use any trick they can to get you there. But don't let them fool you. Get unspun. I'm Amanda Sturgel. I've been a reporter, and today I teach future reporters to cut the spin and think critically about what newsmakers say. My podcast, unspun, shows you how to know when you're being manipulated by the news, learn to spot the tricks, and how to make up your own mind about what's true. So if you're tired of being fooled by the news, subscribe to UNSPUN today. Unspun because you deserve the truth.

Alison Gill (15:22)

Everybody, welcome back. Today we are joined by Hugo Lowell from the Guardian, who was at the correspondence dinner last night. I missed it, but you went. How was it, Hugo?

Hugo Lowell (15:31)

It was. It was crazy. The pre parties and the post parties, it was like. It was like a zoo, to be honest. But it was very funny. And I think Trevor Noah did a great job and the President did a great job. So I'M glad I was able to go.

Alison Gill (15:43)

Yeah. I think one of my favorite lines was when he said, if you have any questions about your Covid vaccination, the FOX News team is here, all faxed and boosted. I thought that was thought that was really good.

Hugo Lowell (15:53)

Well, even better. Even better. When he was like, when, if I say something nasty about Kellyanne Conway, George Conway might come and thank me. George Conway was in the audience. Right. And I sort of lead up the weekend. So it was fine.

Alison Gill (16:06)

Nice. Nice. And oddly enough, there were some committee members there who you didn't think you were able to chase them down. But I want to talk about the committee with you because, you know, you've been putting out some really great pieces in the Guardian about this, and particularly, I think you were one of the first people on top of the news that the hearings were going to start on June 9th. But they still have some people left that they probably want to talk to, including some GOP members that, you know, they had already asked him once, but apparently they've gotten more evidence about some of the goings on with these GOP members. And how do you think they'll be able to even get some of these GOP members to come in and speak to them?

Hugo Lowell (16:43)

So they're sending letters, right? And yes, we've been here before. So they're going to send letters to McCarthy, they're going to send letters to Jim Jordan and send a letter to Scott Perry. You know, these people were targets of the investigation back in January, and they're still targets now. And so the committee is going to send new letters in light of the recent kind of public reporting about how McCarthy was telling his Republican leadership that, well, Trump should resign and he had been told that, or Trump admitted that he bore some responsibility for the capital tax. So the committee is very focused on this. But the other new revelations are that people like Marjorie Taylor Greene were in constant communication with the White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows. And now that that is out in the public, and it's not clear to me if it was a strategic leak or they're kind of now playing the game that now it's out there, okay, now it's the time to move on this. But there is a sense, I think, on the committee that the time is right to go after these Republican members of Congress because there is public pressure on them, there's public outrage surrounding their activities. And if they move now, maybe they have the best chance of securing their cooperation. So a lot of these potential letters also going to people like Marjorie Taylor Green, Mo Brooks. It hasn't been confirmed yet. They haven't been signed yet. But that was the understanding as of Friday.

Alison Gill (18:02)

Yeah. And possibly the best chance. I still think a very slim chance. I mean, you know, since all these tapes came out about McCarthy, he still went into a caucus meeting and got a standing ovation. I think he still has resounding support from his caucus. I wish the Democrats were like that. I wish. I wish when one of us, you know, I wish we all had just supported each other no matter how what happened. But, you know, I still don't see Marjorie Taylor Greene. She just seems so. Seems so defiant. I don't think any of these folks care what's coming out about them. But, you know, who knows? We'll see. But I also don't want people to get too discouraged if these members don't agree to testify, because if, if they aren't going to be a good witness, you don't want them screwing up your presentation anyway or trying to learn details

Hugo Lowell (18:48)

about the investigation through the questioning from the council and then putting it out there, being like, oh, the committee's doing this, the committee's doing that, you know, trying to derail the investigation that way. So.

Alison Gill (18:57)

Right. Yeah. And of course, they also are putting through an expedited hearing schedule for summary judgment in the Mark Meadows case that the January 6 committee is to try to speed that along as well, because, you know, this thing has been sort of pushed back, which is fine with me. For me, the closer to the midterms, the better. I don't care. Because the committee's only job here is to get this out to the public and, you know, whether they don't really need to make criminal referrals at this point because the. The Department of Justice is already investigating all levels of the coup. But I think that the Meadows thing is really, really important. He seems to be the linchpin to this whole entire thing. Either that or that little bit of Pence testimony about that phone call, that final phone call that we only have testimony of for one side of.

Hugo Lowell (19:41)

Right. And it doesn't look like at this point, at least, that Pence is going to come in and talk about it. That seems to be off the table now. But I don't know how much insight you get. Even if Pence did come in and give you a kind of a readout of that call, I don't know how useful that may or may not may be. Right. So that I can understand if you're not going to pursue all the way. But Meadows if you look at the exhibits in the Meadows case with Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony about how Meadows was warned about all of these things happening at the Capitol on January 6, he was kind of warned by the Secret Service, Trump's former lead Secret Service agent, Tony Ornaido, who then went and accepted the position as Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations. And my reporting suggests that Stephanie Grisham actually pointed the committee towards Ornato and the operations side of. And how that all kind of dovetails with what Meadows was doing, coordinating with rally organizers who were in touch with the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys. So it does certainly seem like Meadows is one of these people who has a tremendous amount of information on the operational side, beyond the kind of political stuff with, like, Giuliani, Eastman and Bannon. He does seem to have a tremendous amount of information about kind of how the militia groups came together and, you know, who was on that side of things. Because there's, you know, there are two distinct or even more columns of scheming going on. And he does seem to have the knowledge of. The kind of. The overarching knowledge of all these schemes.

Alison Gill (21:14)

Yeah. And, you know, there are a lot of cooperating witnesses, like folks like Stephanie Grisham, and there's a lot of infighting in the party and there's, you know, a lot of quote, unquote, betrayal. And so, yeah, I think that probably the most important thing here is the Meadows documents. I mean, if he flips and turns into a John Dean, then great, we don't have to worry about it. I don't see that happening. But, you know, he could be the fall guy if. If he doesn't. But we, you know, again, we'll see what happens. We'll see what happens with the Department of Justice as far as that goes. But there are so many, like, 900 witnesses, not all 900, you know, in proximity to Meadows, but so many people who can put those pieces of the story together without Meadows testimony, you know.

Hugo Lowell (21:56)

Yeah, and look, I told her, I said back in October, that even if you don't get Meadows to testify and to cooperate fully, if you can get people like Ben Williamson, his.

Alison Gill (22:07)

His.

Hugo Lowell (22:07)

His top aide, people like, as you found out, Cassidy Hutchinson, these people who know what. Who might know what Meadows knows and then tells the committee, the committee might just get that information anyway. We don't know. Most of the people that have testified to the committee, like the subpoenas are just like a sliver of the 800, 900 witnesses that the committee has talked to. And most of These depositions, you know, and the people coming in, we have no idea who they're talking like, especially these virtual ones. Like, we had no idea Cassidy Hutchinson was talking to the committee. People. People, I think, like, the, you know, knock the committee a little bit, saying, you know, they're not getting cooperation from all these big witnesses. But sometimes it's not the big witnesses you want, you know, it's the little people. The little people who, you know, Meadows might come out of a meeting and go, oh, my God, you know, Trump said this. Trump is going to plan that. And then they retain that information and then tell the committee. So it may well be that, you know, they don't need Meadows, or, you know, Meadows is full cooperation himself, as long as they get the people around him. And, you know, this. This is always being discussed at the. At the member level, at least on the committee, since the start of the investigation.

Alison Gill (23:10)

Yeah. And his documents, which they could get in a summary judgment end of May.

Hugo Lowell (23:15)

And this is the whole point. Right. Like, it's like with Eastman's emails, like, all these documents, these emails, like, once you lose that court battle, you know, Eastman's already lost, it looks like Meadows may well lose. You know, you get those documents, you don't need Meadows to come in and give it. Give it to you. And once you have the documents, you know, in many ways, they're stronger pieces of evidence than the testimony itself.

Alison Gill (23:36)

Yeah.

Hugo Lowell (23:37)

Because they show you in black and white. Right.

Alison Gill (23:39)

Yeah. And this is court of public opinion and not court of law. You don't have to, you know, hearsay is okay. Circumstantial evidence is okay. Well, I mean, that's okay in a court of law, too, but you catch my drift. But. Yeah, and. But the only thing that worries me a little bit is the potential explosive nature of the shit Meadows hid from the committee. Given what he handed over, there's stuff he didn't hand over and he hid from the committee along with those Eastman emails. And the committee's going to be like, you know, we got to get going here in five weeks. And if they get a dump on them in the first week of June, of all the Meadows information that was hidden from the committee initially, that could be. They could be scrambling, trying to put together what they're going to do with that information. But, you know, hey, we will see what happens.

Hugo Lowell (24:25)

Yeah. Look, my source on the committee kind of tell me that they've already got a very, very good picture of the planning that went on into January 6th. I think that is going to be the main focus of this.

Alison Gill (24:36)

Right.

Hugo Lowell (24:36)

Everyone knows that the mob and the military groups attack the Capitol. And everyone knows about the Eastman plan. Everyone knows that Giuliani was trying to, well, Powell was trying to advocate for martial law. Giuliani was trying to pull power away. And there's all these power games inside the kind of the Trump legal team. But a lot of the focus has not been on the other elements with the rally organizers because it's difficult and it's difficult to untangle and their connections to the militia groups and doj. We've actually learned more about that through the DOJ criminal investigation with people like Enrique Tarrio and Stuart Rhodes, the Oath Keepers and the proud boys leader Joshua James, who pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy and Brian Ulrich. Was it yesterday? Yeah, I think it was yesterday.

Alison Gill (25:20)

Yeah.

Hugo Lowell (25:21)

So I think all of these pieces are coming together now. But if they do get, as you say, right. If they get all that, if they get a dump of Meadows text, emails, records at the start of next month, I mean, I don't know what they do with that. Did they push the hearings back a little bit? I don't know. I would much rather them get the material and push the hearings back rather than being like, no, we've committed to a June9, you know, date and, you know, we're going to go ahead and we're going to. We're not going to talk about the Meadows stuff that we got until the report because that would be kind of, I think, counterproductive.

Alison Gill (25:52)

Yeah. Or maybe just add a hearing or scrap one of them and plug in the other one when it comes later.

Hugo Lowell (25:57)

That's a good point, I will say. So the committee. So Bennie Thompson, when he came out of votes the other day, told reporters that there would be at least eight, so there could be more. And they have left themselves a big gap between June and September when they plan to issue their final report. They're telling witnesses at least that they want to issue their final report in September with a big blockbuster hearing. So already we're actually technically at, I think, nine. I don't know what the composition of that final hearing would be. If it's just going to be like a presentation of the report kind of thing. But they have built in a fail safe here. If they need more time.

Alison Gill (26:33)

Right.

Hugo Lowell (26:33)

If they need more time, they have it. If they want to schedule more hearings, they are able to do that. And so I think that gives us an indication that they think there might be more evidence coming down the pipeline. Yeah.

Alison Gill (26:42)

And that's kind of what I would do is if I got those texts a couple of days, and it might be even after the first hearing because it takes a minute for, you know, and there's appeals and, you know, problems and people are dickheads. But, you know, if you finally get that stuff mid June and then, you know, you say, hey, this is so explosive. We have to add a special hearing in July and then like, maybe leak a little bit of it to keep people on the hook for it, you know, and be like, oh, my God, that's gonna be big. And then, you know, then just throw that all out there in a very special 16 committee episode, you know. But, yeah, we'll see what happens. We're not far off. We've also got the Fani Willis, just absolute circus in Atlanta and Fulton County, Georgia. Her grand jury is being seated. Things are. Well, they never really cooled down, but feels like things are heating up.

Hugo Lowell (27:34)

Yeah. And I think especially on the DOJ side as well. Right. I mean, Allison, you've been a big champion of Garland, and I think that it certainly sounds like that confidence was well placed because the grand jury investigations and the subpoenas to people like Ali Alexander, Alex Jones, really interesting. No one really saw that coming, I think, and then it came out of nowhere. And if you look at Elia Alexander's subpoena, it is expansive. You know, they want communications with all or any members of the legislative branch and the executive branch. That's almost more expansive than a select committee subpoena.

Alison Gill (28:12)

Yeah. And that includes Trump, by the way. That is an investigation into the former President of the United States. Anyone who could have impeded or attempted to impede the peaceful transfer of power or the official proceeding and the counting of the electoral votes. Anybody in the members of Congress, executive and legislative branch who did the same. Anyone who organized the rallies, attended the rallies, VIPs who attended and organized the rallies. It's fucking everybody. That is everyone that had anything to do with anything that happened on January 6th or leading up to January 6th or any of the other previous rallies, which were dry runs, of course, for January 6th. But it's big. It's a big investigation. They've brought in some help. We'll see where it goes. I think thinking that something might happen before midterms is a little starry eyed. I think we might be looking at end of year, next year, but who knows?

Hugo Lowell (29:00)

Yeah. And you know, if their whole plan, and it certainly seems like it at this moment, is to have the proud boys and the Oath Keepers flip and talk about the people that they were getting directions from then, that could take a while. But it sounds like a very strong strategy insofar as the Proud Boys, and if you look at previous court cases and kind of previous indictments have been the first to flip on both the other Proud Boy members and their leaders. Those court cases are being scheduled through kind of the spring 2023. So, you know, it may take time to extract from them the information that DOJ needs to construct a case. But if it's these militia groups squealing on the people that were at the Willard or political operatives connected to Trump, I can see how you would construct a seditious conspiracy case.

Alison Gill (29:58)

Yeah. Seditious conspiracy. And what A conspiracy to defraud the United States, Obstruction and official proceeding. There's so many things to choose.

Hugo Lowell (30:06)

So many.

Alison Gill (30:07)

There's so many to choose from. I think Windham is the guy's name now at the D.C. u.S. Attorney's office. And of course, our Matt Graves, who is there. So, anyway, thank you so much for your time today. We're going to start seeing a lot of this stuff. I'm going to try to come out there, see if I can sneak into one of these hearings sometime in June.

Hugo Lowell (30:23)

Yes, we will sneak you in. We will sneak you. We will make sure that.

Alison Gill (30:26)

Thank you so much. And I know that you will keep us posted if something like a more solid schedule comes into view, you let us know.

Hugo Lowell (30:34)

Yeah. So the House is on recess next week. I don't anticipate there being that much news next week, apart from maybe the letters to the members of Congress. They're still trying to finalize a list, but definitely McCarthy, Jordan Perry and a number of other House Republicans. And interestingly, Senate Republicans. I forgot to say this. The fact that the Committee is looking at Senate Republicans is a really big step because the House normally doesn't take any action with its Senate counterpart, and the Senate normally doesn't take any action with his House because House rules. Senate rules, they have their own jurisdiction. But the fact they're looking at the Senate is, A, unprecedented, and B, I think shows you how much the mood has shifted on the committee and the members, because I really do get the sense that they were really fed up with the response to McCarthy. So we shall see. But I think it's a big development.

Alison Gill (31:21)

Yeah, well, maybe just keep leaking dirt on him and maybe he'll get. He'll get pushed into testifying, but we'll see. Thank you so much, everybody. Check out the Guardian. Follow Hugo Lowell. You don't want to Miss it. And we'll, we'll keep in touch as these hearings approach. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. Stick around. We'll be right back with the good

Hugo Lowell (31:35)

news after these messages.

Alison Gill (31:38)

We'll be right back.

Martin Sheen (31:41)

Hello, Martin Sheen here. And it seems to me that no day of the week is without its endless barrage of bad news, even on Sunday. For God's sake, let's change that. What do you say? Together, let's make Sunday immune to bad news. Available now every Sunday, season three of the Martin Sheen Podcast with yours truly, Martin Sheen has begun. Yeah, 10 brand new episodes are already underway. So join me, Martin sheen, for a 20 minute journey as I share my personal stories, a bit of poetry, and insightful reflections that will encourage you to take a deep breath and enjoy a relaxing moment. Of course, it's important to know and understand what's happening in the world, but I also believe there's nothing wrong with taking a step back to find strength and clarity. And Lord knows we need that now more than ever. A moment of thoughtfulness and calm may be rare these days, but it doesn't have to be. So what do you say? You want to take back your Sundays? So do I. And guess what? I've already done it. With the Martin Sheen Podcast, season three, available now. Don't mess with my Sunday, and thank you for listening.

Alison Gill (32:57)

All right, everybody, welcome back. It's time for the good news. Who likes good news?

Hugo Lowell (33:01)

Everyone. Then good news, everyone.

Alison Gill (33:11)

Good news. Good news. And if you have any good news or corrections or confessions or you want to play what the mutt or find the cat or you have misheard song lyrics or you have baby pictures or pod pet pictures or photos of an animal from a local shelter that needs adoption or woobie stories, anything, you can send them in to me and Dana and amy@dailybeanspod.com and just click on contact. And you know what would really help us out? If everyone listening on Apple podcasts gave the beans a rating. Give us a little review. Somehow we lost all of our reviews on January 1st. I'm still trying to figure that out. They mysteriously all disappeared. So we would really appreciate it helped us grow bigger than the right wing shows that clog up the podcast charts help get the fascists off the charts, but leave just one review. We have some of you writing and saying that you're leaving a bunch. We appreciate your enthusiasm, but don't do that. One genuine review is good and they don't show up anyway. So first up from Meg, pronouns, she and her hey, y'. All it's the small victories, Meg. Yes, it is. First attempts at homemade quiche. We'll look at better crust recipes for next time. But so proud of this spinach, tomato and bacon quiche was delicious. Pick of the quiche, which transferred to a plate intact. And my doggos also love y' all and I'm so grateful for this community. Oh, my God, that looks so good. Those tomatoes look so yummy. And look at the dog. O oh, there's one dog walking another dog. It's a wiener dog. I'm all for that. Thank you so much, Meg, for that. Next up, from Clayton. Pronouns he and him. Correction. Oh, good. You have been pronouncing Tommy Tuberville's name incorrectly for a while. I've been debating whether or not to inform you because I am a Cincinnati Bearcats football fan, and he, in his short time as the head coach, nearly destroyed the entire program. Nevertheless, I thought you'd at least like to know how it's pronounced. The tub in Tuberville isn't pronounced tube. It's pronounced tub, like a bathtub. After a loss, he was heckled by a Cincinnati fan and yelled. He yelled at the fan, go to hell. Get a job. You should check it out. It's a moment that lives in Bearcat sports infamy. Oh, wow. Go to hell. Get a job. Tuberville. Nice. All right, Tubberville got it. Also, a year after he was fired after a loss, some friends of mine urinated all over a cardboard cutout of the now senator. He is the subject of many jokes among UC fans, but he truly disgusts me as a senator once more, Tommy Bath, Tuberville, not tummy, inflated inner Tuberville, you're the goat. Also, sorry for the rant, but he's not big on the whole civil servant thing. He complained about a possible stock ban because enriching himself is all he cares about. And he's one of the many congresspeople who trade on insider information he stole from the University of Cincinnati in that he didn't try to win football games. He was just collecting a paycheck. The fans yell at him, you're stealing from this university. He hasn't changed. I, because I was taught not to hate, strongly dislike the man. Oh, fuck it. I hate that. Thanks, Clayton, fellow Ohioan. Next up, David. Pronouns he and him. Hi, beans Queens. I'm writing to request some good vibes. I had shoulder surgery a few weeks ago and then fell getting out of bed. Night of surgery, which has led to weeks in the hospital, three knee operations with one more to come and weeks of rehab. Oh, David, I'm so sorry. I love the show and I listen daily. Keep up the good work, everybody. Send your healing vibes to David right now. Do it, David. Please take care and we wish you a speedy recovery. Next up from Sally Pronoun. She and her ag. I hopped on the happy hour zoom this evening. A little too late to share with you my best good news, so I thought I would share it with you. Here I finally, truly belong. After almost 30 years of various visas, work permits, and two green cards, I am finally a US citizen. Sally, that's wonderful. To belong. This is what I've searched for my whole life. When you are the black sheep or the only one who sees reality in an abusive, toxic family, you spend your life feeling out of place until you find your healing journey. I attached a couple pics. The first pic is of me in 1994 at the age of 20. That's about the same age there, Sally. The beginning of my journey. I was spending my first summer in the US teaching dance and drama to a bunch of awesome kids at summer camp in Connecticut. As a dance student in my second year of study, this job for the summer was my dream come true. Thousands of miles away from toxicity and doing what I loved, I felt free for the first time ever. And I felt like I belonged. This pic. I was with a dear friend and we ducked into a cabin to get out of a rainstorm. Good times Friday. I swore my oath to a country that provided me with an escape at first and then a journey of building my own life on my own terms. Thousands of miles away from the dysfunction that propelled me to leave the uk. I've broken the cycle. I've made a life I'm proud of with a precious family and friends of my own. The second pic is of my family. You've seen us before in Christmas pics I sent. I know my kids have great hair. Anywho, you've inspired me to be a better human. I've already registered to vote and now I'm going to run for local office. Unfortunately, I'll never be president. Onward and upward to the next happy hour. I'll be there on time. Much love, Sally. Look at this. Oh, weren't we just all. Remember, 20 years old. Ah, yes, the great hair family. There you are. Wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. Congratulations. That's so great. It must have felt so good to register to vote. I probably would have bawled my eyes out. Thank you so much for that. And then I think this is our last one here? Nope. We got two more. This one's from Matt Pronouns, he and him Longtime listener, first time writer and I have great news. I just started my new job working as an immigration attorney. The pay and benefits are great. My commute is just 30 minutes, which is super short for New York City and this culture is heavy on work life balance. I never thought I wanted to do immigration law and I had applied without thinking much of it. I almost didn't go to my first interview because I was unsure if this was the type of law I wanted to practice. But as soon as I met my NOW supervisor, everything clicked. I realized how my passions and experiences aligned with this work and I immediately bonded with the team. This isn't typical cutthroat New York City law firm that they pride themselves on the work they do while also making sure we all take mental health days, are flexible with wfh, and that we have time to support our families. I can feel it in my bones this time is where I'm supposed to be and it's truly night and day going from having to train myself in a toxic environment to actually being trained and supported in a positive environment. I wanted to share this news with you all because over the past few months I've been hearing all the positive things happening to the Daily Beans community and it's truly been inspiring me to keep going and stay positive. I'm hoping that maybe if someone hears this, they may see it as a sign they need to take a stand and no longer deal with toxicity, even if they don't have a plan for the pet tax. I searched and found little Nova at the Animal center in New York City. She reminds me of a puppy I had while growing up. I hope this will help her find a loving home. It is NYCACC App. 314. We'll put a link in the show Notes unfortunately, my small apartment is pet free. It's a pet free building and it's not conducive. Otherwise I would adopt her in a heartbeat. Just look at those eyes. Oh what a sweet baby girl. Thank you for sharing that. All right, finally, Kevin in New Hampshire pronouns he and him Dear AG and fellow leguminates, I am pleased to submit for your amusement and or horror a jazzed up lounge act version of the Daily Beans podcast theme song. I hope your friends from they Might Be Giants like it and agree you should play this version once in a while, perhaps on special occasions that warrant a more sleazy cigar and scotch type atmosphere. Thank you so much Kevin and we are going to play a clip for that right now. Here. Everybody take a listen. With swearing.

Hugo Lowell (41:27)

Them big fat screwed up Daily Beans. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Alison Gill (41:38)

Absolutely amazing. Kevin, I appreciate you. That's wonderful. I will see what they might be giants have to say about it. I know they'll love it. Very Richard Cheese. Kevin, thank you again and everyone. Thank you for sending in your good news today. Please continue to do so@dailybeanspod.com and click on contact. I'll be back tomorrow. And until then, please take care of yourselves, take care of each other, take care of the planet, take care of your mental health and vote blue over Q. I've been ag and them's the beans. Refried beans. I like refried beans.

Brian Caram (42:09)

I'm Brian Caram, and I've spent decades covering politics. Now I'm taking you behind the scenes, one interview at a time.

Just Ask the Question Narrator (42:17)

Join us as each week Brian confronts the issues that matter, posing the questions you wish you could ask. No filter, no agenda, just the truth.

Brian Caram (42:26)

We're not here for sound bites. We're here for substance. Join me, Brian Caram, every week as we cut through the noise and get straight to it. This is Just Ask the Question where curiosity will lead us to the facts.

Just Ask the Question Narrator (42:41)

Subscribe now on your favorite podcast platform and remember, when you want answers, all you have to do is just ask the question.