Refried Beans | Every Crime In The Book (Feat. Randall Eliason) | 6.29.2022

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Daily Beans – “Refried Beans | Every Crime In The Book” (Feat. Randall Eliason) | 6.29.2022

Main Theme & Overview

This episode of The Daily Beans explores the historic, explosive testimony of Cassidy Hutchinson at the January 6th Committee hearing, its implications for Trump and his circle, and dives into the legal realities around charging Supreme Court justices with perjury for their statements during confirmation hearings. With former federal prosecutor Randall Eliason as a featured guest, hosts Allison Gill and Dana Goldberg dissect major headlines, bring their signature mix of snark and seriousness, and emphasize both the gravity and the absurdity of the current political moment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Headlines: Big Legal, Political, and International Developments

Timestamps: 01:30–06:20

• Ghislaine Maxwell Sentencing:
  Maxwell was sentenced to 20 years for sex trafficking, higher than guidelines (17.5 years) but less than prosecutors wanted (30 years).
  Dana Goldberg: “I hope she serves 19 of them…she doesn’t deserve to be a free woman ever.” (04:24)

• Fulton County, GA DA Subpoenas Alex Holder:
  Documentary filmmaker Alex Holder is cooperating with a subpoena for Trump-related footage.
  Alison Gill: “[This is] a friendly subpoena…probably just formalities to ensure legal compliance.” (05:05)

• Finland & Sweden Join NATO:
  Turkey lifts its veto, allowing the expansion, brokered partly by President Biden. (05:26)

• Brittney Griner’s Detention:
  Russian court extends detention of WNBA star; conviction rate is <1% acquittal in Russia.
  Dana Goldberg: “She’s a hostage, basically.” (06:20)

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2. Bombshell: Cassidy Hutchinson’s Testimony on Jan 6th

Timestamps: 06:20–22:12

• The Importance and Credibility of Hutchinson’s Testimony
  Alison Gill: “Single handedly she connected Donald, Rudy and Meadows to the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers and seditious conspiracy…” (07:28)
  The testimony marked a turning point, shifting narratives from mere obstruction to potential seditious conspiracy. Prosecutors, historians, and even some Trump allies are stunned by the credibility and detail.

• Key Facts Revealed:

  • Rudy Giuliani and Mark Meadows requested pardons after discussions with Oath Keepers and Proud Boys (08:01).
  • Trump was explicitly told the mob on Jan 6th was armed, dangerous, and carrying weapons like guns, spears, and body armor (13:11, 17:34).
  • Trump instructed removal of metal detectors (“the mags”) because “they’re not here to hurt me,” indicating his knowledge and intent regarding the threat (13:11–13:59).
  • Testimony that Trump physically attempted to commandeer the Secret Service vehicle to go to the Capitol, and may have lunged at agents (14:55–15:59).
  • Evidence of witness intimidation and obstruction, with messages to witnesses such as “Trump does read transcripts. Just to keep that in mind as I proceed through my interviews with the committee.” (18:12)
  • Dana Goldberg’s Reaction: “She should have 24/7 protection at this point. She needs it.” (19:57)

• On the Courage of Women Testifying:
  Alison Gill: “[Cassidy Hutchinson] has more chutzpah than any of the grown ass men that are unwilling to come forward and testify.” (20:13)

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3. Interview with Randall Eliason: Perjury and Confirmation Hearings

Timestamps: 23:47–29:44

• Why SCOTUS Justices Can’t Be Charged with Perjury for Confirmation Statements

  • Eliason explains that perjury requires a direct, provably false statement, made knowingly.
    “You can't prosecute somebody for perjury for being misleading or evasive... witnesses evade and dodge all the time…and unless you actually lie about a provably false fact, it's not going to be basis for a criminal charge.” (Randall Eliason, 24:34)
  • SCOTUS nominees use language like “Roe is settled law,” which was true at the time. “That doesn't mean it can never be overturned.” (24:58)
  • Congressional testimony is rarely the subject of successful perjury prosecutions—cross-examination is typically weak, and answers are intentionally evasive or noncommittal.

• Is Impeachment or Any Sanction Possible?

  • Eliason: “I wouldn't even think it's impeachable, honestly, because again, this has become the norm…” (28:51)
  • Gill: If a more liberal justice said “law of the land,” then declined to uphold precedent, would Republicans push for impeachment? It's a double standard. (29:12)
  • Final advice: “There's certainly a lot of understandable anger and frustration, but…spend time and effort elsewhere. Criminal prosecution of the justices is a waste of time.” (29:28)

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4. Listener Good News & Pod Tax

Timestamps: 31:27–38:46

• Submissions from listeners include stories of cancer survivorship, activism, adorable pets chewing Trump dolls, participation in Ride for Roswell, positivity after vaccine rollouts for kids, happy places at the beach, and even original frog orgy art (37:52–38:06).
• Alison Gill: “If you have any good news…song lyrics…photos, you can do it at dailybeanspod.com and click on contact.” (31:43)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Alison Gill on Trump: “He wanted to lead the insurrection… He was told these guys were armed, that they were dangerous.” (12:27)
• Dana on Trump’s “mags” comment: “No president in the history of our country…would allow that stuff to happen or even encourage it to happen.” (13:43)
• On Witness Intimidation:
  “It can’t get more straightforward than that. Unless you say, I will murder you…People have prosecuted mobsters on this kind of language forever, successfully.” (Alison Gill, 19:03)
• Randall Eliason on perjury:
  “If anybody was really misled about what was going on, they were pretty naive. People that were paying attention knew exactly what was going on.” (26:19)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Hot headlines (Ghislaine Maxwell, Alex Holder, Griner): 01:30–06:20
• Deep dive into Hutchinson’s testimony: 06:20–22:12
• Interview with Randall Eliason: 23:47–29:44
• Listener Good News & pod tax: 31:27–39:06

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Tone & Style

Irreverent, incisive, and often snarky, the hosts balance deep outrage at corruption and injustice with humor, pop culture references, and an emphasis on community resilience. There’s a clear progressive perspective, but the legal analysis (especially with Randall Eliason) is rigorous and fact-based.

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For Listeners

This episode provides a thorough, passionate explainer of the shifting legal and political landscape post-Cassidy Hutchinson’s testimony, with candid discussion about accountability, legal realities, and the limits of the justice system—even when the public craves consequences. Perfect for anyone wanting both deep dives and a dose of cathartic, sarcastic banter.

Transcript

[Dana Goldberg]

History is messy.

[Alison Gill]

It's weird, wild, and anything but boring. Rainy Day Rabbit Holes is a history podcast about unhinged stories that make you

[Dana Goldberg]

stop and ask, wait, is this real life? From crazy disasters and tasty scandals to enlightening and surprising heartwarming tales, we explore the moments where people behave badly and sometimes beautifully. We've got naughty politicians, cultural chaos, and a deep love for the Pacific Northwest, including Bigfoot. It's thoughtful, irreverent, occasionally serious, and always entertaining. Let's fall down the rabbit hole.

[Alison Gill]

MSW Media. MSW Media. Hey, everybody, it's Ag. And welcome to Refried Beans, where we play an episode of the Daily Beans podcast from the same week either one, two or three years ago, so we can see how far we've come. So please enjoy this episode from days gone by and note the date in the intro. Refried beans.

[Martin Sheen]

I like refried beans. That's why I want to try fried beans, because maybe they're just as good

[Randall Eliason]

and we're wasting time.

[Alison Gill]

Hello and welcome to the Daily beans for Wednesday, June 29, 2022. Today, explosive testimony from Cassidy Hutchinson during the last minute hearing on the 16 attack on the Capitol. Ghislaine Maxwell is sentenced to 20 years in prison. There's no chance that Supreme Court justices could be charged with perjury during their confirmation hearings. Turkey has dropped its opposition of Finland and Sweden joining NATO, and filmmaker Alex Holder has been contacted by the Fulton county da Fani Willis. I'm Alison Gill.

[Dana Goldberg]

And I'm Dana Goldber.

[Alison Gill]

Hello, everyone. You're gonna have to forgive me today. I am so sick. And so I apologize for my raspy voice.

[Dana Goldberg]

And I did not get her sick. Everyone, we have not seen each other in person. I cannot take responsibility. But we should all send healing thoughts to you, Alison. And I'm sorry you're not feeling well, honey.

[Alison Gill]

Well, thank you. I should be feeling better soon. Hopefully. I am resting. I am drinking lots of fluids. I am taking care of myself. Yes, I am still watching and reporting on the news, but I would be doing that whether this was my job or not. I just wanted to put that out there. I can't stay away from it, especially today. Holy shit. That testimony.

[Dana Goldberg]

Amazing.

[Alison Gill]

It was. I mean, we've already used up all the words, right?

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah, this was, I mean, very damning testimony. And I mean, obviously there were some incredibly laughable moments. We'll get into them in a little bit. But, you know, we have to remember this is a Republican. This is a Trump Republican. This is a, you know, a Meadows Republican. And has been for a very long time, and she will probably continue to be a Republican. But she came forward when she needed to, to protect the democracy of this country. And as she said, she was disgusted by what she heard and saw.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, it was a very powerful testimony. Very credible witness, I imagine will be a very credible witness for the Department of Justice, if she hasn't been already. We don't know, but we'll talk about that in a little bit. Also, later in the show, we're going to be talking with Randall Eliasson, he's a former federal prosecutor, about potential perjury charges for justices who told us Roe was settled law in the confirmation hearings and how it's not really at all actually possible that they could be brought up on criminal charges for lying to Congress. And he'll tell us why. I just wanted to sort of put that baby to bed before, you know, people keep, you know, demanding it.

[Dana Goldberg]

I think that's a good idea. Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

Because, yes, they're assholes. Yes, they deceived us, but criminal perjury charges are a little bit different. Have a. Have a different standard. So we'll talk about that, and then we'll do the good news. Sound good?

[Dana Goldberg]

Sounds great. Sounds good to me.

[Alison Gill]

All right, let's hit the hot notes. Hot notes. Okay, a couple of quick headlines before we dive into the hearing. First up, Ghislaine Maxwell was sentenced to 20 years in prison. The guidelines said she should get about 17.5. Prosecutors were asking for 30. She got 20. So it was an upward departure from the guidelines, which means more than she was supposed to get, but not as much as the DOJ wanted. And that's pretty normal.

[Dana Goldberg]

And I hope that. Yeah, I Hope she serves 19 of them, and then I'm not wishing death upon anyone, but I hope she doesn't get out of prison during this lifetime. She doesn't deserve to be a free woman ever.

[Alison Gill]

Agreed.

[Dana Goldberg]

Agreed. And I still want names. I want all the names. I want Democrats, Republicans, Independents. I want all the fucking names. I want everyone to go down for this still. And I consider this good news. Down in Fulton county, the DA Fani Willis has subpoenaed documentary filmmaker Alex Holder for his Trump footage, and he is complying. Lawyer said, quote, my client will comply with any lawful subpoena from the Department of Justice or any other law enforcement agency. So not coming forward by free will, understandably, but not fighting any subpoenas. So that's good news.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, I think it's a friendly subpoena. It was probably like he's got a lawyer and they subpoenaed him. And he asked his lawyer and, or, you know, they asked him for the stuff probably. And he said, well, my lawyer says subpoena me and I'll hand it over.

[Dana Goldberg]

Sure.

[Alison Gill]

And that makes me wonder too, Dana, if the DOJ subpoenaed him because they mentioned the doj, that they would comply with a lawful subpoena.

[Dana Goldberg]

True.

[Alison Gill]

From DOJ or any other law enforcement agency. Of course, no one asked that follow up question, but, you know, whatever. And NATO leaders will formally invite Finland and Sweden to join the alliance on Wednesday after Turkey lifted its veto on their membership thanks to a deal reached that was brokered in part by Biden at the G7. So well done there.

[Dana Goldberg]

Indeed. And this story, it hurts my heart. Russian court. Russian court Monday scheduled Brittney Griner's trial to start Friday. That's according to her lawyer and rule the WNBA star's detention be extended six more months, penning its outcome now. Fewer than 1%. This statistic is terrifying. Fewer than 1% of people are acquitted in this kangaroo court in Russia. She's been charged with an exaggerated charge of massive drug distribution, which we know is when she had an empty vape cartridge on her. It was hashish oil. It was empty vape cartridge. And they are really going after this. And I do not know why the government has not gotten her back.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, she's a hostage basically. And now onto the hearings. And by the way, I really do hope that this government does everything they can, whatever trade is necessary to get Brittney Griner back. Indeed, multiple historians and multiple political experts, including Bernstein, Woodward, John Dean, are saying today that the testimony of Cassidy Hutchinson was by far the most explosive and credible witness testimony they've ever heard. A lot of prosecutors are saying that, too. They've never heard anything like it. Even some current Trump allies who are left speechless. According to Jamie Gangal at cnn, she's in touch with a lot of Republicans on the Hill. Last night we were all speculating about who the mystery witness was going to be. And we were thinking it was someone big because of amped up security concerns and the fact that she brought an entourage of lawyers with her that was going to. Well, we had heard that there was going to be an entourage of lawyers accompanying the mystery witness. We found out today that was the truth, but we didn't know who it was last night. And it was kind of, dare I say, fun on Twitter, speculating who this was going to be. But we thought it was going to be like a huge Like Cipollone or Meadows or even Pence himself. And then when we got the news, it was Cassidy Hutchinson. Everyone seemed a bit confused a little bit about the hype. We've seen her video testimony. She's spoken to them three previous times. But no one is confused about it today. No one. Single handedly she connected Donald, Rudy and Meadows to the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers and seditious conspiracy, not just obstructing an official proceeding, which is what I've been saying forever. She added, you know me, I'm always like, just go for, you know, obstructing an official proceeding. It's going to be too hard to prove seditious conspiracy. But after today's testimony, I'm on Team Seditious Conspiracy.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

She added that Rudy asked for a pardon just days after discussing Oath Keepers and Proud Boys at the White House. Meadows asked for a pardon just days after speaking with stone and Flynn.

[Dana Goldberg]

Mr. Fifth. Mr. I'll take the fifth. And I have shitty Internet service. What the fuck? You're a general get better. Wi fi.

[Alison Gill]

Hate that guy. He needs to be recalled and court martialed and stripped.

[Dana Goldberg]

Absolutely.

[Alison Gill]

Retiree benefits. We learned the President assaulted his Secret Service. And we learned that people in Trump world are involved in witness intimidation, which is extremely serious and very straightforward here. So, Dana, you watched. Let's discuss some of the major reports from today. First of all, obstructing a proceeding to seditious conspiracy. As I said yesterday, if you'd asked me what, what I think Department of Justice should charge Trump with, I would have said obstructing an official proceeding and that, you know, because there might have been an explicit, you know, an implicit agreement between the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys. No, now I'm on, you know, seditious conspiracy.

[Dana Goldberg]

Ye.

[Alison Gill]

And we'll get into that in a second. But the connections between several mentions of the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys with Rudy. Didn't she say, didn't Cassidy say, well, whenever Rudy was around the Oval Office, he was always talking about the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers.

[Dana Goldberg]

Absolutely. And I think some of us thought it might be Alexander that was coming in today too, and was not. Cause he made some mention of having an appearance in D.C. on his social media platform. But yeah, that doesn't necessarily mean he won't be eventually, you know, one of the witnesses. We still have more hearings coming.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, true. Although he's garbage.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, for sure.

[Alison Gill]

But I wouldn't put him anywhere within a mile of that hearing room, honestly. But he has testified to the Department of Justice, grand jury, he has testified to the committee. We may see video of that testimony. If we don't, then that sort of solidifies that he was garbage and we don't need him. Something else we learned today that sort of just got glossed over amidst all the, like, huge drama, violent physical drama. Was that the call to the Willard? Right. Donald instructed Meadows to contact Stone and Flynn on the night of January 5th. And we know they were part, along with Bannon and Eastman and Rudy and others of that war room at the Willard. And we know that our friend Hugo Low had reported back in November, he got the scoop that there were phone calls placed from the White House to the war room at the Willard. And we saw that evidence today. And Hutchinson testified about it. She asked to set up a Secret Service trip to the Willard for Meadows. He was like, do this. Get me over there. And so, you know, she's like, don't do this. Yeah. She's like, no. So he called in by phone, I guess, you know.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. She was definitely looking after him. I mean, up until those. Up until the end. I mean, she was trying to do her job, and he was so far down that rabbit hole, he was. He was gone. Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

It struck me all the time she testified when she was trying to tell him that violence was gonna happen or that violence was happening or we have to do something or important things are going on. How he was just scrolling on his phone, ignoring.

[Dana Goldberg]

Didn't look up.

[Alison Gill]

Shutting the limo door twice on her while he was on the phone. Like, just very, like, nope, nope, he's not gonna do anything. He doesn't want to do anything. Just extremely damning evidence on his part. And then we have Pat Cipollone, who was invoked quite a few times today. And I think this hearing may have been another effort by the committee to convince Pat Cipollone to testify.

[Dana Goldberg]

I would say that in Thompson's closing argument, I would definitely say this was a little nod to him of being like, hey, gee, if you get the courage, you might want to come in.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. And we found out that Cipollone told the White House that if Donald goes to the Capitol, because apparently he was. I really want to go. I want to go to the Capitol. Take me to the Capitol after the Ellipse speech. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, and no. And we found out Cipollone actually said, if you go there, you'll be charged with every crime in the book. And Hutchinson testified specifically to a couple of crimes that were mentioned. Which were 371 and 1512. Right. Defrauding the United States and obstructing a proceeding with regards to violence. Capitol, but he's directly tied to it now.

[Dana Goldberg]

Also warned explicitly, explicitly about defrauding the U.S. this was Cipollone obstructing and proceeding with regards to the violence of the Capitol. Like, he's. He's in the middle of all of this.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, yeah. And what I know today, that I didn't know yesterday is that he wanted to lead the insurrection. He. It seemed to me, like right before, before today, he seemed like a. Oh,

[Dana Goldberg]

you mean Donald Trump.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yes.

[Alison Gill]

He seemed to be like, oh, I didn't incite anything. I just gave a speech with some powerful words and then went back. And maybe I didn't do much to stop the violence, but he seemed like more of a hands off, but he actually knew and was told that these guys were armed, that they were dangerous. And let's talk about that before we talk about the Secret Service.

[Dana Goldberg]

I mean, for him to say, I want the mags down. And for those of you listening that don't know what they are, those are the metal detectors. And he said that, you know, Hutchinson testified that he was upset that the crowd size wasn't larger. Well, because people weren't being allowed in that had weapons, including AR15s. And Trump was like, take down the mags. I don't give a shit. They're not here to hurt me. Let them through. I know they're not going to hurt me. How the fuck would you. No president in the history of our country. And he's also got enemies would allow that stuff to happen or even encourage it to happen.

[Randall Eliason]

Right.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. He said, let my people in. Get rid of the fucking mags. They're my people. And then they can march to the Capitol after. And you brought up the smoking gun. They're not going to hurt me. That implies they could hurt other people and I don't care.

[Dana Goldberg]

Well, he knew that they wanted to because of the conversation she was having about that she heard in the Oval Office about the hang Mike Pence chants when Trump was like, he deserves it.

[Alison Gill]

Mm. But yeah. And then this shows ahead of time that he knew they were dangerous and didn't care. And that is what makes this seditious conspiracy. He wanted to lead them over there to overthrow the government by force. That's the element.

[Dana Goldberg]

And speaking. This is where the funny part, and I know you and I found this amusing. It is. Cuz he's fucking batshit. Sorry, but he's Just nuts. He is absolutely a lunatic. Like, certifiably at this point.

[Randall Eliason]

He is.

[Dana Goldberg]

Hutchinson testified that she. Her. Was she in the car or did she just hear from the Secret Service agent?

[Alison Gill]

No, she actually went. When they got back to the White House, she was in a different car. She went up and saw these two guys, Engel and what's his name?

[Dana Goldberg]

I know it was Engel.

[Alison Gill]

Ornato.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, yeah.

[Alison Gill]

And Engel in Ornato's office or Engel's office, one of the two. And they asked her, like, did you hear about what happened in the Beast? She's like, no, what happened in the Beast? The Beast is the presidential limo, the lead car. And so she testified today that they told her this.

[Dana Goldberg]

Thank you. Okay. Because everyone, you know, the only thing, it's interesting, everyone's like, of course, the gop, it's hearsay. It's hearsay. First hand witness testimony is not hearsay. It's just if you're a firsthand witness and you were there for the conversation. She wasn't there for this one, but she was told directly by the Secret Service who was in the car. So if we need to get. I'm sure, I'm sure it'd be easy to get his testimony, but this rumor has it is that Donald thought he was going. He wanted to go to the Capitol. And they said, sir, you're not going to the Capitol. He said, I want to go to the Capitol. And he said, sir, we need to get back to the White House. And then Donald lunges for the steering wheel with his tiny little hands and apparently the driver was like, sir, you need to release the steering wheel. And then with the free hand, apparently lunged at his neck and tried to choke him out.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. And speaking of hearsay, by the way, Renato Marioti is talking about this. All, you know, legal people are talking about this on Twitter. Statements of Trump or others, as recounted by Cassidy, are not hearsay. If offered by the DOJ against Trump in a criminal case, it's not.

[Dana Goldberg]

There you go.

[Alison Gill]

There's a million exceptions for hearsay, and that's one of them. So while, you know, we're used to the law and order, that's hearsay. This would not be. But yeah, physically assaulted his Secret Service guys.

[Dana Goldberg]

I mean, that's.

[Alison Gill]

And they never said anything to the public.

[Dana Goldberg]

I'm not surprised, to be honest with you. And, you know, it was interesting. Who was it? Oh, man, I can think of it during the conversation. But there's been a lot of people tweeting and we have to remember this. All of these people had opportunity to speak up. They all had this information. You know, it goes back to like the impeachment hearings where these people all were writing books and they were holding onto it and they wouldn't come forward. I'm like, I have a lot of respect for Hutchinson. I don't necessarily trust her. Sort of like Chaney at this point. I have a lot of respect for what she's doing right now with this hearing. But we still disagree on 99% of the other things in my life, right?

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, 100%. She doesn't think that you have the right to exist right now or not. According to Hutchinson told Meadows that the rioters headed to the Capitol were armed. And Meadows asked Ornado if he had told potus and Ornado said yes. He informed potus. He told Donald that the mob had spears, guns, knives, bear spray, body armor

[Dana Goldberg]

and flagpoles that they were sharpening into spears.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, spears that they would stick on the end of flagpoles too. So amazing. They had all these weapons and guns too.

[Randall Eliason]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

And Ornato informed Donald of this. So Donald knew, he knew that they were an armed, potentially violent mob. And that's the force part of seditious conspiracy. And I think we need a full on investigation into obstruction of justice now, if there isn't already one. Because right there at the end, remember Dana at the end when they put up the threats.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, it was beautiful. I love that Chaney teased this. She was like, listen, we're gonna cover this in some future hearings. And just so you know, if this is you, pay attention.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. And what happened was she put two up on the screen. And the first one is what they said to me is, as long as I continue to be a team player, they know I'm on the team. I'm doing the right thing. I'm protecting who I need to protect. You know, I'll continue to stay in good graces in Trump world. And they have reminded me a couple of times that Trump does read transcripts. And just to keep that in mind as I proceed through my interviews with the committee, another one said, redacted, let me know you have your deposition tomorrow. He wants me to let you know he's thinking about you, he knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition. And you know, it can't get more straightforward than that. Unless you say, I will murder you if you absolutely.

[Dana Goldberg]

Bad things are going to happen to you and your family. If you don't say what you need

[Alison Gill]

to say, and that never happens. And people have prosecuted mobsters on this kind of language forever, successfully, mind you. So I think we should have a full obstruction of justice investigation. That is definitely obstruction of justice. That is witness tampering. That is witness intimidation. Clear as day. There's no question. It can't even be argued otherwise. The only question I'm left with, Dana, is what? Why today? Why did this testimony have to happen? Why did they have to break in through their schedule that wasn't going to resume until mid July to have this testimony today? I thought maybe there was some sort of law enforcement thing that had to take place or there was some sort of coordination with the doj. It appears as of this moment that the reason is because of the security threats and intimidation and that they wanted to secure her testimony before and in case somebody got to her.

[Dana Goldberg]

Good Lord, that is terrifying. And people have said it all over Twitter. She should have 24 hour, seven days a week protection at this point. She needs it and she should have it.

[Alison Gill]

I assume she does. The committee wouldn't comment on that, but I assume that she does.

[Dana Goldberg]

I would assume so, too.

[Alison Gill]

All right, well, I think Sheamos and Ruby should have it too. And like everyone should. It's kind of astounding. This young woman has more chutzpah than any of the grown ass men that are unwilling to come Forward and testify 100%.

[Dana Goldberg]

There's rumor. You know, it's funny because I'm like, oh, you know, I hope that she, you know, this maybe changes her trajectory in the political world, but there's already rumors that she's gonna go work for DeSantis, so who the fuck knows with that? I mean, to be honest with you, there's just rumors, but it's just amazing to me that these people will come out and say, this is disgusting, this is disgusting, this is disgusting. And they'll still vote for him the next time. So it's really hard for me to settle into, you know, calling them heroes, but in this moment, she's necessary. She did the right thing. And it was brave. Very.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. I don't necessarily think she's a hero, but I'm just. I was just sort of making the point that we have that Ashley girl. We have Olivia Troi, we have Cassidy Hutchinson, we have Stephanie Winston Wolkoff. We have just. It's all. It seems like it's all women. It is that are willing to drop in and do this kind of public. We've got some folks that had really harrowing and incredible testimony. Shay Moss and her mom, Ruby Freeman. I mean, it's just these women. It's women when, you know, when the shit settles in a couple of decades and there we find out what political sides they end up on. We can have that discussion. But John Dean was also a criminal and a Republican, but he is now revered as a cool dude, right?

[Dana Goldberg]

That's true.

[Alison Gill]

You know, Jaime Lannister, we all ended up liking him by the end of Game of Thrones. It's possible. Anything's possible.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, man.

[Alison Gill]

Is what I'm saying. But no, it is. You know, I am with you. When we see their voting records, it's like, cringe, O Rama. And just, you know, But I just thought it was interesting that these very young women that are willing to do this in the face of death threats, real death threats. All right, we will be back with Randall Eliason, who will tell us whether we like it or not, that the justices can't be charged with lying to Congress during their confirmation hearings. And he'll tell us why. Stay with us after these messages. We'll be right back.

[Martin Sheen]

Hello, Martin Sheen here. And it seems to me that no day of the week is without its endless barrage of bad news. Even on Sunday. For God's sake, let's change that. What do you say? Together, let's make Sunday immune to bad news. Available now every Sunday, season three of the Martin Sheen podcast with yours truly, Martin Sheen has begun. Yeah. 10 brand new episodes are already underway. So join me, Martin sheen, for a 20 minute journey as I share my personal stories, a bit of poetry, and insightful reflections that will encourage you to take a deep breath and enjoy a relaxing moment. Of course, it's important to know and understand what's happening in the world, but I also believe there's nothing wrong with taking a step back to find strength and clarity. And Lord knows we need that now more than ever. A moment of thoughtfulness and calm may be rare these days, but it doesn't have to be. So what do you say? You want to take back your Sundays? So do I. And guess what? I've already done it with the Martin Sheen Podcast, season three, available now. Don't mess with my Sunday and thank you for listening.

[Alison Gill]

Hey, everybody. Welcome back. I am happy to be joined today by former federal prosecutor, white collar crime professor at GW Law, and contributing columnist to the Washington Post, Randall Eliason. Welcome, Randall.

[Randall Eliason]

Thank you. Glad to be here.

[Alison Gill]

I am really glad you're here because I sort of want to put to rest a Question, or should I say a demand that people have been making on social media that we somehow charge the justices on the Supreme Court with perjury or Title 18, U.S. code 1001, you know, lying charges. Because they told us that they felt that Roe was settled law at the time during their confirmation hearings. And you put out a great thread on Twitter. I encourage everyone to follow you for straightforward information. Can you talk a little bit about why this isn't really a thing?

[Randall Eliason]

Sure. Thanks. So the main thing to remember about perjury or false statements prosecutions is that you can't prosecute somebody for perjury for being misleading or evasive. I mean, the law on that is very clear. They've got to directly make a provably false statement, knowing that it's false at the time. And witnesses evade and dodge all the time. And the Supreme Court's been very clear that that's not perjury. It's the job of the person asking the questions to try to pin them down, because witnesses are sometimes expected to be evasive. And unless you actually lie about a provably false fact, it's not going to be basis for a criminal charge. There might be. There are other possible remedies, but it's not going to be a crime. So statements like Roe's settled law. Roe was an important precedent. Sorry, decisive is important. Those are all true statements. I mean, it was settled law. That doesn't mean it can never be overturned because it was settled law in the form of a Supreme Court case, and those are always subject to being overturned. Stare decisis is important, but that doesn't mean cases never get overturned. Even if you believe in stare decisis, occasionally prior rulings do get overturned. Roe is a precedent that's been affirmed many times. That was a true statement as well. So the point is, all these things they said at the hearing were technically and literally true. And as a result, they're never going to form the basis for a criminal prosecution. Right.

[Alison Gill]

And even when they were asked if they would overturn Roe v. Wade, their answers usually were something along the lines of, I'm not going to speculate on hypotheticals at this time. I don't know what that case is. And so I can't say, you know, and something along those lines also occurred.

[Dana Goldberg]

Right? Yeah.

[Randall Eliason]

And that's the norm. That's been the norm at these hearings for decades. They're really pretty meaningless at this point because the nominees just spend the whole time trying to avoid getting pinned down on pretty much anything. And they've gotten pretty good at it. But the whole point of a criminal prosecution with perjury is false statements, is that you have to pin the person down and just being evasive or dodging the question or saying, well, I can't answer that. Hypothetical, things like that. Again, people might feel misled by the overall tone of the answers. Although I think if anybody was really misled about what was going on, they were pretty naive. People that were paying attention knew exactly what was going on. But even if you end up feeling misled, that doesn't make the answer a criminal offense. It just means that the questioning wasn't precise enough or that the witness was successful in avoiding actually answering the question.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, I remember we saw this with Jeff Sessions during his confirmation hearing or during a, I think, a Senate Judiciary hearing where he said, yeah, I did not have communications with the Russians, which is clearly untrue, but in context of his full statement, couldn't be prosecuted because it wasn't, you know, they couldn't nail it down, like you said.

[Randall Eliason]

That's exactly right. And this is particularly true. I mean, perjury prosecutions are relatively rare, and they're considered pretty difficult to prove. And it's just for this reason, because given the kind of malleability of language and the possibility of sort of miscommunication, misunderstanding, things like that, it's really hard to pin somebody down precisely enough that you can prove that what they said was perjury. The ability to do that is the mark of a really good cross examiner. And there aren't that many really good cross examiners out there, and there certainly aren't very many in Congress. So perjury based on congressional testimony is almost unheard of because they're so bad at asking questions. And frequently they're more interested in making speeches and getting on cable news than they really are in drilling down and trying to pin the witness down, which is what it takes to make a criminal case.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, and we just saw Sussman acquitted on one count of Title 18, U.S. code 1001. And that was, you know, based on materiality. It was based on, I guess, inconsistent testimony to different, you know, Inspector General, Congress, and the special counsel by Jim Baker, who was the only witness to the alleged lie. And so it's. Yeah, it's very tricky. There's a lot of different things at play. And so I just wanted sort of to be clear that everybody understands that this is not really a prosecutable crime at all. Impeachable, maybe, but prosecutable, criminal. No.

[Randall Eliason]

Yeah, I wouldn't even think it's impeachable, honestly, because again, this has become the norm in these nomination hearings. If all of these candidates, liberal and conservative, do exactly the same thing, which is go to these hearings and try to kind of be very vague and evasive and not get pinned down on anything, I don't know how you call that impeachable offense. I mean, they're doing the same thing that nominees from both parties have done for 30 years.

[Alison Gill]

Right. So if you have a quote, unquote, more liberal justice up there saying, you know, it's a law of the land, I'll uphold it, et cetera. And then for not overturning it, you would have Republicans trying to impeach liberal minded justices for not really answering questions. Yep.

[Randall Eliason]

I mean, I think there's a lot of ways to respond to Dobbs and there's certainly a lot of understandable anger and frustration, but the idea that we should spend time and effort thinking about a criminal prosecution of the justices is just, in my opinion, a waste of time and time better spent elsewhere.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, no, agreed.

[Dana Goldberg]

We have.

[Alison Gill]

There's lots of other things we can and should be doing. I appreciate your time today, everybody. Follow Randall Eliason on Twitter. Very, very good information coming from that account. Former federal prosecutor and also white collar crime professor at gw. I'm gonna have to come and audit one of your courses one of these days.

[Randall Eliason]

That'd be great. Thanks for having me.

[Alison Gill]

No problem, everybody. Stick around. We'll be right back with the good

[Randall Eliason]

news after these messages.

[Alison Gill]

We'll be right back.

[Martin Sheen]

Hello, Martin Sheen here. And it seems to me that no day of the week is without its endless barrage of bad news. Even on Sunday. For God's sake, let's change that. What do you say? Together, let's make Sunday immune to bad news. Available now every Sunday. Season three of the Martin Sheen Podcast with yours truly, Martin Sheen has begun. Yeah, 10 brand new episodes are already underway. So join me, Martin sheen, for a 20 minute journey as I share my personal stories, a bit of poetry, and insightful reflections that will encourage you to take a deep breath and enjoy a relaxing moment. Of course, it's important to know and understand what's happening in the world. But I also believe there's nothing wrong with taking a step back to find strength and clarity. And Lord knows we need that now more than ever. A moment of thoughtfulness and calm may be rare these days, but it doesn't have to be. So what do you say? You want to take back your Sundays? So do I. And guess What? I've already done it with the Martin Sheen Podcast Season three available now. Don't mess with my Sunday and thank you for listening.

[Alison Gill]

Everybody. Welcome back. It's time for the good news.

[Dana Goldberg]

Who likes good news?

[Randall Eliason]

Everyone?

[Dana Goldberg]

Then good news everyone. Good news, good news.

[Alison Gill]

And if you have any good news or confessions corrections, if you have, you know, misheard song lyrics, find the cat, what the happy places. Any photos you want to send in, you can do [e-mail] and click on contact and I'm going to go ahead and kick us off. Dana with a submission from Ann Pronouns she and her hello ladies of the beans. This past weekend was the Ride for Roswell, a bicycle fundraiser ride for cancer research and treatment facility located in Buffalo, New York. As a two time cancer survivor who just completed radiation treatment for breast cancer on May 10, I was delighted that I was able to participate in the 10 mile ride on a very hot summer day. The evening before the ride, I also participated in the Celebration of Hope and torch lighting ceremony. The woman who lit the torch was diagnosed with stage four ovarian cancer in 2004 and given six months to live. She credits the care providers at Roswell as well as her wife for helping her bear cancer. Before the torch was lit, a video about her story of survival and love was shown. It was great seeing a story about love and commitment between two people, which made the ruling and the concurrence by Thomas more galling since it's apparent he wants to destroy that relationship. Although I think their love will prevail regardless of what Thomas wants. Attached are the photos of my crazy little chihuahua, Schnauzer Mix Joey. He came into my life nine days after surgery for my first cancer diagnosis in October of 2020.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, Joey is cute dude.

[Alison Gill]

Anne is a warrior.

[Dana Goldberg]

Look at those ears and the floof.

[Alison Gill]

Oh my gosh,

[Dana Goldberg]

I love it. Anne, thank you so much and seriously, a warrior indeed. Keep thriving. Keep thriving. Not just surviving, you are clearly thriving and I could not be happier about that.

[Alison Gill]

Yes.

[Dana Goldberg]

All right, this next one's from Anonymous Pronoun she and her I was turned on to your podcast by a co worker. We bonded over our dislike of Trump. I listen to you while I walk my dog and make sure to turn my phone on speaker, especially when we walk past the Trumpy neighbors if they're outside. Below is a few shots of Bruce, 10 years old, adopted from Parma Shelter when he was 3 months old. I'm the person, quote, who didn't want a dog. And now all this time later, I Can't imagine life without him. Thanks for keeping me motivated in these times that seem so oppressive. That is a gorgeous dog chewing on Trump's head.

[Alison Gill]

This is a handsome boy. Looks like part Rottweiler, part Burmese, maybe.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah. Oh, he's beautiful. That might be full rotty on that second picture. No, there's a mix there for sure.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, that white patch on the chest.

[Dana Goldberg]

Maybe a cattle. A cattle dog. And oh, so sweet.

[Alison Gill]

I love with the Trump doll in his mouth. Okay, thank you so much for that. Next up from Amy. Pronouns she and her hi ladies. Love your show. And the swearing, which is so needed right now in light of the tear down America actions of scotus. I'm trying to keep moving forward. I just turned in my application to be a poll worker. I'm also writing postcards for postcards to swing states to remind Democrats to vote, which is awesome. Thank you, Amy, for doing that. She says wow. She's written 300 and she's waiting for her next 500 postcards. And she's also texting with pa. Lastly, I followed the lead of someone on Twitter and took down my US flag. Will not fly again until I'm once again a full citizen.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, wow. Yeah, that was powerful. I didn't even thought about that. Oh my goodness.

[Alison Gill]

Thank you, Amy.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yes, thanks for all the work you're doing. This next one's from Melissa. Pronouns she and her hello beans. Queens. It's been a rough few days. I had to take a little break from watching the news. The doom scrolling on Twitter to keep myself sane. Same girl? Same. I'm so thankful to have my happy place to go to, especially now. I moved to a co op in a small neighborhood in Queens, New York in November. There's a beach club a few streets away with an amazing view of the Long Island Sound Throg's Neck Bridge. It was a little expensive to join for the summer and I felt guilty about spending the money. Luckily, New York State just sent a homeowner's rebate check that covered the cost. It's been wonderful for myself my self. Care to be able to read on the beach and enjoy beautiful views? I recharged this weekend and I'm gonna look into helping through the abortion access front. Great. Good, good, good. Thanks for all that you do.

[Alison Gill]

Oh, look.

[Randall Eliason]

Wow.

[Dana Goldberg]

It's a great shot. It's a great place.

[Alison Gill]

Beautiful.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

That is a nice, happy place. Thank you for sending that. I appreciate it. Next up, Anonymous Pronouns she and her Good news. My 2 year old and 4 year old received their first Covid vaccines last week. Woohoo. We've been waiting so long for this. I cried happy tears knowing they'll have an extra level of protection when school starts this fall. Also, we were lucky enough to be able to watch the arrival of four robin hatchlings from the comfort of our patio. They've since left the nest and I already miss sneaking outside every morning to check on them. It was a great way to start the day. Look it.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, the babies. Look at them. Second picture is really clear.

[Randall Eliason]

Wow.

[Dana Goldberg]

So sweet. Awesome, awesome, awesome. All right, this is from Heather. Pronouns, they. Them. Darling ladies of the lagoons, thank you for keeping us all up to date with the slow collapse of society into the sea and for keeping us all at least vaguely sane. First, my good news, last weekend, I finally bit the bullet. I got my nose pierced. I've been wanting to do it for about four years. Just hadn't summoned up the courage. I decided it mattered more to me to get that thing than what anyone thought of me. Also, I feel really badass now. Also, in the good News, on Friday 24 June, pardons and subpoenas, there was an extended riff on the concept of frog orgies. Yes, there was. I literally had to pause the pod because I was laughing so hard. Then I did what I usually do and I went, I got a brain worm these days and I had to draw it. Oh my God, this is great. So please enjoy this cartoon of frog orgy. Don't worry, no froggy porn that I spent a good chunk of this weekend doing. And I hope this counts as my pod tax. The log says if this log's a rockin', don't come and knock. And there's clearly several frogs in there. There's also, it looks like a little doggy style frog action on a lily pad and a really cute buffet of bugs and a bunch of frog legs that only you can see the legs

[Alison Gill]

and the eyes coming up out of the water going, oh.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh my God. This is fantastic. I love that you have this gift.

[Alison Gill]

This is amazing.

[Dana Goldberg]

So, so good.

[Alison Gill]

I wish when I got a brain worm I could just draw it out.

[Dana Goldberg]

I know, right?

[Alison Gill]

That's so cool. Thank you.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

Remember you liked infants and I was the frog orgies.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah, yeah, we need to be more specific. Mine had nothing to do with orgies. I just like babies. And she was into frog orgies. The way that was set up, I was like, uh, if no one heard the episode, I'm going to clarify.

[Alison Gill]

I always, I always make that mistake that anyone I Ever speak to has. Must have heard everything I've ever said ever in my whole life. Right? I just walk forward in life assuming that, and it never works out.

[Dana Goldberg]

Well, you were like, I'm into frog orgies and you like babies. Nope, that is not how that's going down. Love you. But I am making a correction.

[Alison Gill]

Good, good. On the spot correction. And if you have a correction you need to send into us or anything else you want to send, particularly happy place photos, good news corrections, whatever it is, you can send it to [e-mail] and click on contact. I gotta get out of here before my voice completely.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yes, you do. Go rest, my friend. I have no final thoughts. Give us a sign off.

[Alison Gill]

Okay, everybody, until tomorrow, please take care of yourselves, take care of each other, take care of the planet, and take care of your mental health. And vote blue over Q. I've been

[Dana Goldberg]

AG and I've been dg.

[Alison Gill]

And them's the beans. Refried beans.

[Martin Sheen]

I like refried beans.

[Alison Gill]

Hi, I'm Frances Collier.

[Dana Goldberg]

And I'm Angela V. Shelton.

[Alison Gill]

And we're Frantela.

[Dana Goldberg]

You know what you need in your life? The Final Word podcast.

[Alison Gill]

Yes, you do.

[Dana Goldberg]

That's right. It is the final word on all things political and pop cultural, where we

[Alison Gill]

make real news, real funny, where we inspire you so you can resist. Subscribe and get a new episode of the Final Word podcast each week.

[Dana Goldberg]

It's the news we think you need to hear. That's right. We think you need to hear it.

[Alison Gill]

Okay.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

It's what we say.

[Dana Goldberg]

So. That's right.

[Alison Gill]

And because all we do is give. Every Thursday, you can listen to our hysterical podcast, idiot of the Week. We round up the stupid.

[Dana Goldberg]

Because you know what?

[Alison Gill]

Somebody has to.

[Dana Goldberg]

Okay.

[Alison Gill]

All we do is give.