Refried Beans | Navarro, Scavino, and Meadows, Oh My (feat. Glenn Kirschner) | Jun 6, 2022

Sun Jun 08 2025

Monday, June 6th, 2022 In the Hot Notes: Trump advisor Pete Navarro has been indicted and arrested for criminal contempt of congress; simultaneously, the DoJ told the committee they would NOT be indicting Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino for criminal contempt; a Pence aide told his secret service lead that Pence could be at risk the day before the attack on the capitol; and strategy memos prepared for Republican candidates advised them to “ignore guns and talk inflation” after the Uvalde shooting. Follow our guest: Glenn Kirschner

Summary

The Daily Beans Podcast Summary
Episode: Refried Beans | Navarro, Scavino, and Meadows, Oh My (feat. Glenn Kirschner)
Release Date: June 8, 2025
Recording Date: June 6, 2022
Host: Alison Gill
Guest: Glenn Kirschner, Host of Justice Matters and Former Federal Prosecutor

1. Introduction and Overview

Alison Gill opens the episode by outlining the major news topics discussed during the week. The primary focus centers around the indictment of Pete Navarro, the decision by the Department of Justice (DOJ) not to indict Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino, a Pence aide’s warning about Vice President Mike Pence’s safety, and Republican strategy memos following the Uvalde shooting.

“There was a lot of news that dropped. We're going to get to most of it as much as we can.”
— Alison Gill [00:46]

2. Indictment of Pete Navarro

Pete Navarro, a former Trump White House official and trade advisor, has been indicted on two counts of criminal contempt of Congress for refusing to comply with subpoenas from the House committee investigating the Capitol attack. The indictment, a seven-page document, charges Navarro with refusing to appear for a deposition and failing to produce requested documents.

“Navarro is the second former Trump adviser to face criminal charges in connection with rebuffing the committee.”
— Alison Gill [01:30]

Navarro has filed a lawsuit against House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the bipartisan committee, challenging the legality of the subpoenas. He plans to seek a postponement of his arraignment, potentially delaying proceedings until his civil suit is resolved.

“Navarro did not enter a plea and said he would seek to postpone his June 17th arraignment.”
— Alison Gill [04:15]

3. DOJ’s Decision on Meadows and Scavino

Contrasting Navarro’s situation, the DOJ announced it would not pursue contempt charges against Mark Meadows (Chief of Staff) and Dan Scavino (Deputy Chief of Staff). This decision is attributed to their partial cooperation with the committee.

“The Department of Justice used prosecutorial discretion to decline to bring those charges because both Scavino and Meadows did partially cooperate with the committee.”
— Alison Gill [09:00]

The decision also considers the potential complications of charging Meadows and Scavino with misdemeanors, which could activate the Sixth Amendment rights, making broader conspiracy investigations more challenging.

“Once you charge Meadows and Scavino, the Sixth Amendment kicks in, which would complicate any bigger conspiracy investigation.”
— Alison Gill [12:45]

4. Pence Aide’s Warning Before Capitol Attack

A day before the January 6th Capitol attack, Mark Short, Vice President Pence’s chief of staff, warned Pence’s Secret Service that Mike Pence could be at risk. This warning highlighted the intense pressure Pence faced from Trump and his allies to overturn the 2020 election results.

“Mark Short seemed to have a good reason for concerning the vice president's refusal to go along was exploding into an open and bitter breach between the two men.”
— Alison Gill [14:30]

Short's warning underscored the tension within the White House as Trump sought ways to maintain power, culminating in the violent storming of the Capitol by Trump supporters.

“Mark Meadows, White House chief of staff, is reported to have told colleagues that Trump said that perhaps Mr. Pence should have been hanged.”
— Alison Gill [18:00]

5. Republican Strategy Memos Post-Uvalde Shooting

In the wake of the tragic Uvalde school shooting, Republican strategists distributed memos advising candidates to divert attention from gun violence and focus on other topics like inflation and gas prices.

“Change the topic to literally anything else and let this news cycle run its course.”
— Alison Gill [26:40]

These memos suggested that discussing gun control would backfire, promoting narratives that framed Democrats as proponents of gun confiscation and redirecting the conversation to perceived liberal failures.

“Ignore guns, talk inflation... We've heard Republican senators talk about Chicago and Congresspeople accuse the Dems of gun confiscation and gun grabbing and talk about inflation, gas prices.”
— Alison Gill [27:15]

6. Interview with Glenn Kirschner

Alison Gill engages in an in-depth discussion with Glenn Kirschner, a former federal prosecutor, about the complexities surrounding Navarro’s indictment and the DOJ’s decision regarding Meadows and Scavino.

a. Reasons Behind DOJ’s Mixed Messaging

Kirschner outlines several potential reasons for the DOJ’s inconsistent approach:

Coordinated Takedowns: The DOJ may have aimed for a simultaneous indictment of multiple individuals to prevent the obstruction of investigations.

“We do coordinated takedowns. Well, AG we also often do coordinated interviews.”
— Glenn Kirschner [22:30]
Cooperation Offers: Meadows and Scavino might have expressed willingness to cooperate, influencing the DOJ's decision not to press charges.

“Mark Meadows gave over literally thousands of documents that turned out to be deeply incriminating of Donald Trump.”
— Glenn Kirschner [25:00]
Prosecutorial Discretion: Pursuing minor misdemeanor charges could hinder broader, more significant investigations.

“If they did indicted Meadows, they would have to start with a minor charge which could complicate larger conspiracy investigations.”
— Glenn Kirschner [28:50]

b. Institutional Norms and Future Implications

Kirschner emphasizes that DOJ’s decision aligns with institutional norms to avoid setting precedents that might hinder future prosecutions of high-ranking officials.

“Merrick Garland is an institutionalist. He does think long term.”
— Glenn Kirschner [30:10]

He speculates that Meadows and Scavino might be facing more serious charges in the future, similar to Navarro and Bannon.

“Liz Cheney said this was an extraordinarily dangerous, well coordinated, far reaching criminal conspiracy by Trump and his allies.”
— Glenn Kirschner [31:30]

c. Potential Legal Strategies and Future Outcomes

Kirschner discusses the possibility that the DOJ is reserving their actions against Meadows and Scavino for more severe charges, avoiding the pitfalls of initiating with misdemeanors.

“This declination is in large part because more significant charges are coming.”
— Glenn Kirschner [30:50]

He also touches on the implications for the January 6th committee, noting that inherent contempt power remains an avenue for Congress to pursue charges independently of the DOJ’s actions.

“Congress can still get it done with its inherent power of contempt.”
— Glenn Kirschner [33:00]

7. Conclusion

Alison Gill wraps up the conversation by highlighting the escalating tension and the anticipation surrounding the upcoming hearings. She emphasizes the importance of staying informed and encourages listeners to engage with the ongoing developments.

“It is going to be a hell of a week. So buckle up.”
— Alison Gill [34:00]

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

“Navarro is the second former Trump adviser to face criminal charges in connection with rebuffing the committee.”
— Alison Gill [01:30]
“The Department of Justice used prosecutorial discretion to decline to bring those charges because both Scavino and Meadows did partially cooperate with the committee.”
— Alison Gill [09:00]
“Change the topic to literally anything else and let this news cycle run its course.”
— Alison Gill [26:40]
“We do coordinated takedowns. Well, AG we also often do coordinated interviews.”
— Glenn Kirschner [22:30]
“Congress can still get it done with its inherent power of contempt.”
— Glenn Kirschner [33:00]

Key Takeaways:

Pete Navarro’s Indictment: Represents a significant escalation in the DOJ’s efforts to hold former Trump aides accountable for their roles related to the Capitol attack.
DOJ’s Selective Prosecution: The decision not to indict Meadows and Scavino suggests strategic prosecutorial discretion, potentially to preserve broader investigatory efforts.
Pre-Capitol Attack Tensions: The warnings from Pence’s aide highlight the internal conflicts and security concerns within the White House leading up to January 6th.
Republican Communication Strategies: Post-Uvalde memos reveal an intentional attempt to shift focus away from gun control issues, emphasizing alternative political narratives.
Future Legal Battles: The upcoming hearings and continued investigations are poised to shed more light on the extent of the conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election and the roles various Trump allies played.

Recommendation:
For listeners seeking a comprehensive understanding of the DOJ’s actions against Trump administration officials and the internal dynamics leading up to the Capitol attack, this episode provides insightful analysis and expert commentary from Glenn Kirschner.

Transcript

Alison Gill (0:00)

MSW Media. Hey everybody, it's Ag. And welcome to Refried Beans, where we play an episode of the Daily Beans podcast from the same week either one, two or three years ago so we can see how far we've come. So please enjoy this episode from days gone by and note the date in the intro.

Unknown Speaker (0:23)

Refried beans. I like refried beans. That's why I want to try fried beans, because maybe they're just as good and we're wasting time.

Alison Gill (0:46)

Hello and welcome to the Daily beans for Monday, June 6, 2022. Today, Trump adviser Pete Navarro has been indicted and arrested for criminal contempt of Congress. Simultaneously, the Department of justice told the 16 committee they would not be indicting Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino for criminal contempt. A Pence aide told his Secret Service lead that Mike Pence could be at risk the day before the attack on the Capitol. And strategy memos prepared for Republican candidates advised them to ignore guns and talk inflation. Three days after the Uvalde shooting. I'm your host, Alison Gill. Hi everybody. Happy Monday. I hope you had a great weekend. There was a lot of news that dropped. We're going to get to most of it as much as we can. We're going might have to put some stuff off till tomorrow, but this week is also going to be a crazy news week with the, with the hearings beginning on June 9, 8pm Eastern Time. You're going to want to be around for that. Dana's going to be back tomorrow with us and she's going to also be back with the good news. We're going to forego the good news today so that she can be here when we read it. And instead I'm going to be talking with Glenn Kirschner, host of Justice Matters and former federal prosecutor. We're going to be talking about the Scavino, Navarro and Meadows thing that happened over the weekend. Also out today, an episode of Muller, She Wrote and a new episode of the MSW Book Club where I cover Ellie Mostahl's instant New York Times bestseller, Allow Me to Retort, you can check those out. And thanks to our patrons, thanks to you, we are able to make these shows happen. And right now we have this program where if, you know, if you want to donate a one year premium feed ad, free feed to someone who can't swing it right now, you can do that. And then you can also sign up to receive a donated one year premium feedback. You get this show, MSW Book Club and Mellor, She Wrote, all ad free plus access to the weekly Zoom meetings and our private online groups and discord and all that cool stuff for discussions. So you can do that by going to patreon.com muller she wrote. All right, we have a lot to get to. Let's hit the hot notes. Hot notes. All right, first up, former Trump White House official Peter Navarro has been indicted on two counts of criminal contempt of Congress after refusing to comply with a subpoena from the House committee investigating the attack on the Capitol. And that's according to the Justice Department and their announcement on Friday ahead of the first televised public hearings of the panel this Thursday. The development was a boon to the committee threatening criminal consequences for a former Trump aide who defied them. But at the same time, the Justice Department revealed it would not prosecute two other higher ranking aides, Chief of Staff and Deputy Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino. Navarro, who was a trade advisor for Trump, revealed he also received a grand jury subpoena from the Department of Justice as part of a probe. And he filed a lawsuit on Tuesday against House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the bipartisan House committee. Navarro, who's 72, was charged with one contempt count involving his refusal to appear for a deposition and the other contempt count because he refused to produce documents to the committee. That's according to the seven page indictment returned Thursday and unsealed Friday. Now, Navarro is the second former Trump adviser to face criminal charges in connection with rebuffing the committee, and his charges mirror those sought by the House, filed by federal prosecutors in November against Bannon after he refused the committee's requests at an initial appearance on Friday afternoon in federal court, he would not shut up. He accused prosecutors and the FBI of misconduct, suggesting that the timing of his lawsuit and the charges against him were part of a race to the courthouse. Navarro did not enter a plea and said he would seek to postpone his June 17th arraignment and criminal proceedings until his civil suit is resolved, potentially running out the clock on efforts by the committee this year, Magistrate Judge Zia Faruqi released Navarro on personal recognizance on standard conditions that he notify the court before he travels, and added if the government has acted improperly, they will hold their feet to the fire and make sure there's consequences. But they did not. I want to reiterate that the Department of Justice contempt charges do not exist to compel Navarro to testify. That sort of happened on a Jim Acosta interview with Officer Fanon. He's like, why do you, you know, why do you, what do you think about the doj, you know, failing to compel him to testify. When they talked about Meadows and Scavino not being indicted. These charges don't compel anyone to testify. They just punish them for not they punish them for failing to comply with those subpoenas from the committee to address the Meadows and Scavino declination. It's my personal opinion after talking to many former federal prosecutors, and I'm going to talk to one soon here in a minute when we talk to Glenn Kirschner after the break. That's my personal opinion. The Department of Justice used prosecutorial discretion to decline to bring those charges because both Scavino and Meadows did partially cooperate with the committee. And those charges aren't as cut and dried as Navarro's and Bannon's are. Also, once you charge Meadows and Scavino, the Sixth Amendment kicks in, which would complicate any bigger conspiracy investigation. As Barb McQuaid put it, if they charged them for contempt misdemeanors, they couldn't use informance against them and they'd have the right to know the evidence that is being used against them as well. I have to assume the Department of Justice also subpoenaed Meadows and Scavino for their info, the way they subpoenaed Navarro. You'll notice that they subpoenaed Navarro to hand over all communications with Trump by June 2nd. That's the Department of Justice subpoena, not the 16 committee subpoena. And then they indicted him the next day. Now, that says to me that they realized they'd get nothing from Navarro, so they charged him with contempt because he's a completely useless witness. All right, next up, the day before the mob of Trump supporters stormed the Capitol on January 6. On January 5, the day before Vice President Mike Pence's chief of staff called Mr. Pence's lead secret Service agent to his West Wing office, that chief of staff, Mark Short, had a message for the agent, Tim Gables. They said the president was going to turn publicly against the vice president and there could be a security risk for Pence because of it. The day before the stark warning, the only time Short flagged a security concern during his tenure as Mr. Pence's top aide, was uncovered recently during research by this reporter for an upcoming book, Confidence the Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America, which is going to be published in October. Mr. Short did not know what form such a security risk might take, according to people familiar with the events. But after days of intensifying pressure from Donald on Pence, to take the extraordinary step of intervening in the certification of the electoral count to forestall Trump's defeat. Mr. Short, Mark Short seemed to have a good reason for concerning the vice president's refusal to go along was exploding into an open and bitter breach between the two men at a time when Trump was stoking the fury of his supporters who were streaming into Washington. Short's previously unreported warning reflected the remarkable tension in the West Wing as Donald and a band of allies, with the clock running out, searched desperately for a means of overturning the election. Trump grew agitated as his options closed and it became clear he was failing in his last ditch effort to muscle his previously compliant vice president into unilaterally rejecting the vote outcomes in key states. This warning about, you know, security threats to Pence also shows the concern at the highest levels of the government about the danger that Trump's anticipated actions and words might lead to violence on January 6th. It's unclear what, if anything, Mr. Gibels, who was the, you know, Tim, the Secret Service agent for Pence. It's unclear what he did with the message, but as Mr. Trump attacked his second in command and democratic norms in an effort to cling to power, it would prove prophetic. As we know, a day after Short's warning, as you know, 2,000 people, some chanting Hang Mike Pence, stormed the Capitol. Outside, angry Trump supporters erected a mock gallows after Pence was hustled to safety. Mark Meadows, White House chief of staff, is reported to have told colleagues that Trump said that perhaps Mr. Pence should have been hanged. Mr. Short was asked about the conversation with Mr. Gables during an interview with the House committee investigating the Capitol riot. That's according to a source familiar with his appearance. New details from the weeks leading up to January 6th will help flesh out how Trump and his allies sought to intimidate Pence into accepting their baseless theory that the vice president has the authority to overturn elections. Now. A spokeswoman for Secret Service didn't respond to an email seeking comment, nor did a spokesman for Pence. Now, Pence said, about five months after the Capitol attack, there's almost no idea more un American than the notion that any one person could choose the American president. A few weeks after election day on November 3rd, it was election Day. A few weeks later, aides to Mr. Pence learned that some in Trump's loose network of advisors were discussing the possibility of January 6, set under statute as the day of the Electoral College certification as a potentially critical date in Trump's efforts to stay in power. Soon, Pence asked his general counsel, Greg Jacob, to write a memo explaining what his powers were during the certification. The memo did not take a clear position, but Mr. Pence's advisors continued to research the issue, ultimately concluding that the Vice President has no authority to dictate the outcome. He can't just throw electoral votes out. But Mr. Pence and his team were faced with regular pressure from a cast of Trump supporters arguing that he did have such power. We've seen a lot of these memos. At the end of December, Pence traveled to Vail, Colorado, for a family vacation. And while he was there, his aides received a request for him to meet with Sidney Powell. Right now. The request to meet with Powell was relayed through Kelly Ward, chair of the Arizona Republican Party. That's according to a person familiar with the exchange. Ward had joined a suit filed by Gohmert, Republican of Texas, that asked a court to say that Mr. Pence could decide whether to accept or reject slates of electors from states during the Electoral College certification. And Jamie Raskin has called that lawsuit that a very important key in the plot to overthrow the government. The lawsuit was asserting precisely what Pence's aides argued he did not have the power to do. Some Pence advisors were suspicious that Sidney Powell wanted to serve the Vice President with legal papers related to that case. Interesting. She's under investigation by the Department of Justice, by the way, and has been since at least September. Mr. Short objected to Mrs. Ward's support of the suit. She relayed to him that they would not pursue it if Trump was uneasy with it. The proposed meeting with Powell never happened. Powell and a spokesman for Ms. Ward did not respond to emails asking for comment. There were other points of friction that left the Pence team on high alert about the pressure campaign. Meadows told Mr. Short that the President was withholding approval of a pot of transition funding for Pence to establish a post White House office. I'd like you to do us a favor, though. That's what the fuck that is. That's new reporting. He was trying to withhold post White House money for him to develop an office. That's extortion. Now, amid the rising tension, Mr. Short reached out between Christmas and New Year's Day to Jared Kushner. That's we know who he is. Trump's son in law and senior advisor. Asking how he could defuse what was becoming an untenable clash between Pence and Trump, Kushner deflected the outreach, saying he was busy. He was wrapped up in bringing peace to the Middle east at one point. And this guy, I think, has been overlooked quite a bit. At one point, John McEntee, head of the Presidential Personnel Office. Remember the guys who used to ice people by hiding Smirnoff Ices in the office? And if you found it, you had to chug it. This fucking guy. He wrote a handwritten note that circulated in the West Wing that seemed to acknowledge that Pence did not think he could influence the outcome of an election. As you guys know, I reported exclusively months ago, the fact that Pence's team's badges were deactivated and he was unable to get into any offices in the Capitol and hide, and that's why he was forced down into the loading dock. No one else has corroborated that reporting. My sources are pretty strong, but McEntee would be the guy to deactivate those badges and that we now know. He had a handwritten note that circulated in the West Wing that acknowledged Pence didn't think he would influence the outcome of the election. It's just very interesting, especially Marc Short telling Secret Service, Pence's Secret Service chief, this could be dangerous. And then of course, we all remember the part where Tim, who Marc Short told about this, pulled up in a car and said, get in a car. And Pence was like, dude, I trust you, but I'm not getting in that car. And we also know that the crime fraud exception email, the one to Rudy Giuliani that Eastman forwarded from Kenneth Cheesebrough, that memo that was supposed to be about having Vice President Pence recuse from counting the votes and not be there and have Grassley take over. And as we know, Grassley said he would be on the 5th. He said, I'll be taking over the thing. And then he quickly walked back his comments. This was all a very big plot. Everyone was involved. Trump also persisted, pushing on Pence, trying to, you know, more direct means of pressuring him. He continued. On January 4, he summoned the Vice President to meet with John Eastman, the lawyer who'd been especially influential in pressing the case that the Vice President could intervene. During that meeting, Eastman appeared to acknowledge that Pence did not have the power to. To arbitrarily settle the election. But he maintained that the Vice President could send the results back to states to reevaluate the results over a 10 day recess. Just delay it for a while. And you remember the email we saw that the committee handed over to Judge Carter? Judge Carter, who decided that Trump and Eastman committed crimes 18 U.S. code 371, conspiracy to defraud the United States, and 18 U.S. code 1512, obstructing an official proceeding. And in that email, he said, you know, hey, why don't you just violate the Electoral Count act just one little more time and delay the count for 10 days while we. What? Right? What were they going to do? Seize voting machines at gunpoint? There were memos for that. In one of the emails, they say, we're just trying to cast doubt on the results, which seem to be one of the MO's of Trump. Right. Calling up Rosen at the DOJ, saying, just announced that there's an investigation. We just need to cast doubt. Same with the Zelensky extortion. You don't have to investigate Biden and Burisma. Just say you're going to. That's all we need is to cast doubt. Trump tweeted on the morning of January 5th that Pence could reject electors. He had tried to persuade some of his informal advisors outside the White House to go to the Naval Observatory, that's the vice President's official residence, to seek an audience to pressure Pence. That day, Trump spoke with Pence again, pressing him to do what the Vice President said he could not. And it was that day that Mark Short called Mr. Gables Tim into his office. About 1pm Pence released a memo making clear he disagreed with the president about his power to intervene in the certification. The memo was not shared with the White House counsel in advance. The trust between the offices was shattered by then. Soon, Trump's supporters swarmed the Capitol, breaking through doors and windows, disrupting the count. Mr. Gibels rushed Mr. Pence from the Senate chamber and took him to an underground loading dock. The vice President refused to get in the waiting car despite Gibel's repeated urging, believing it would let the rioters and others score a victory against core democratic processes. Pence stayed there for hours until it was safe to return to the Senate chamber, where he insisted on finishing the certification process. And y' all, this is just one of the conspiracies to obstruct the electoral vote count that the committee will illustrate during public hearings, which again begin Thursday, June 9th at 8pm I want everyone to be aware, by the way, that the official Supreme Court decision on Roe could drop that day. And I just want everyone to know it's not a distraction, okay? The Supreme Court isn't trying to distract us from the hearings. The Supreme Court schedule has been set for a very long time, set well before the committee decided to schedule these hearings. This month. Up next and this one was obvious but made my blood boil nonetheless. Several strategy memos and private communications prepared for a variety of conservative candidates and organizations reviewed by Rolling Stone in the days following the Uvalde school massacre were clear. Change the topic to literally anything else and let this news cycle run its course. Quote, Ignore guns, talk inflation, one such memo, written for a top tier GOP Senate candidate, succinctly reads, citing polling data of voter concerns ahead of the critical 2022 midterm elections. Other documents predictably decried liberal desires for gun grabbing and gun confiscation and made it whataboutism type references to gun violence in Chicago. So these memos said talk about Chicago. We've heard Republican senators talk about Chicago and Congresspeople accuse the Dems of gun confiscation and gun grabbing and talk about inflation, gas prices. Change the subject. Let it run its course. It will go away. The people of America are stupid. They will forget. That's what these memos are saying now. On Friday, May 27, three days after the Uvalde shooting, the RNC Republican National Committee distributed a memo, talking points and messages advising to its surrogates and media allies what to say. The email began with some pro forma thoughts and prayers for the victims of their families, then went to thank the members of law enforcement who responded to the scene and killed the shooter. But the bulk of the memo, part of the series of RNC pundit prep that typically lists the party's weekly political priorities, had a conspicuous omission. It did not include any actual talking points about the latest school massacre in the United States, a mass shooting that dominated American media and political conversation, only to be bookended by news of other mass shootings carried out with firearms. The email did detail, however, what you need to know about this week's primary elections and listed the RNC's recommended reading from Fox News, Breitbart, Newsmax, and the Washington examiner on topics such as Joe Biden's failed immigration record. So that's the messaging. So every time you see a Republican talk about Dems wanting to confiscate guns or inflation or gas prices, they've been told to say that by the rnc, funded by the nra. All right, I'll be right back in a minute with Glenn Kirschner. We're going to discuss the Navarro indictment and Department of Justice declination to charge Meadows and Scavino for the same crimes. Stick around. We'll be right back after these messages. We'll be right back.