Andy Kroll (4:06)

Yeah, and hangovers aren't sick. Like, if you're hungover, you can't be like, I don't, I'm sick. I don't feel good. I can't, I can't go to Georgia.

Alison Gill (4:14)

But he did have a stent put in. And so, you know, they're saying that he can't fly because of that. So funny. Will is said that she'd be happy to buy him a bus ticket. She's like. Because he's like, she wants me to be there in person and I can't fly yet. I'm not cleared for flying. And so she's like, I'll buy you a train ticket or a bus ticket, bro.

Andy Kroll (4:36)

I'll. I'll chip in for it. Let's start a GoFundMe.

Alison Gill (4:38)

Yeah, so anyway, that's all the stuff. That's that those are like, huge giant stories that also happened today that aren't, that, you know, aren't going to make it into the hot notes. That's how big big the news day is today. And later in the show, I'm going to be talking with Andy Kroll, author of Death on W Street, the Murder of Seth Rich and the Age of Conspiracy. Absolutely incredible book. It's available for pre order now. Pick it up. It's Called Death on W Street by Andy Kroll. So I'll be talking with him later in the show and then of course, we'll have the good news, but. Oh, my God, can we please hit the hot notes? Hot notes. I feel like this is some shit we've been waiting for for, like, six years.

Andy Kroll (5:17)

I mean, it's just I. And I. I think I told you this. And I tweeted. I haven't been. Stop laughing. Laughing since you tweeted and you text me and said Mar A Lago was just raided by the FBI. I started giggling and it hasn't stopped since.

Alison Gill (5:30)

Yeah. As we are recording this show, this is breaking news. It's just dropped. It's a developing story. Trump's residence at Mar A Lago in Florida has been raided by the FBI. First reported by a local Florida journalist, who I retweeted, then confirmed by CNN, New York Times, MSNBC, Kaitlan Collins, etc.

Andy Kroll (5:47)

And Trump himself.

Alison Gill (5:48)

Yeah, and. Well, that's who's. Who's. Who's confirming it to these networks. All the major news networks are corroborating this story. Here's Trump's statement. These are dark times for our nation. Is my beautiful home. It's not beautiful. Mar A Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, is currently under siege. He says it's under siege, raided and occupied by a large group of FBI agents. I wish we had video of this.

Andy Kroll (6:13)

Oh, me too.

Alison Gill (6:14)

Nothing like this has ever happened to a President of the United States before. And it hasn't now. Because you're not the President of the United States. After working and cooperating with the relevant government agencies, it's an outrage on my home. That's not necessary or appropriate. And that's what made me think that this had to. I was like, this has to do with those 15 boxes. Right. Because he talks about how he's cooperated with the relevant government agencies. And he said that multiple times when all the news started breaking that he stole 15 boxes of top secret documents from the White House. He calls this prosecutorial misconduct, weaponization of the justice system. Although the White House had no idea that this was happening. They were surprised today. So it's not political. Sorry. As much as you want it to be, it's an attack by radical left Democrats. No. Who desperately don't want me to run for president. That is also not true. We really want you to run for president.

Andy Kroll (7:09)

Yeah. I think this was more of the Republicans who desperately don't run. You run in 2024.

Alison Gill (7:15)

And then he says such an assault could Only take place in a broken third world country. Sadly, America has now become one of those countries corrupt at every level, never seen before. They even broke into my safe. He said, what is the difference between this and Watergate, where operatives broke into the Democratic National Committee. He compares this to Watergate here in reverse. Democrats broken into the home of the 45th President of the United States. The political prosecution of President Donald J. Trump. He's always referring to himself in the third person. Has been going on for years with the fully debunked Russia, Russia, Russia. Scam. Impeachment hoax number one. Impeachment hoax number two. He just lists all the things that he fucked up. This is not the flex you think it is, my man. Oh, my God. And so much more. It just never ends. It's political targeting at the highest level. Hillary Clinton was allowed to delete an acid wash. 33,000 emails. Acid wash, like jeans, after they were subpoenaed by Congress. Absolutely nothing happened to her. Okay? She even took antique furniture and other items from the White House.

Andy Kroll (8:20)

Oh, my God. This is an amazing statement. I didn't read the whole thing.

Alison Gill (8:24)

Yeah, that was. They thought they. They had been given gifts, but they were actually gifts given to the White House. So the White House National Archives called them and like, hey, those were gifts. And they're like, oh, sorry. And they gave them back. It wasn't like. It wasn't like a $5,800 bottle of Japanese whiskey or anything or, you know, top secret documents. I stood up to America's bureaucratic corruption. I restored power to the people, people I and truly delivered for our country like we've never seen before. The establishment hated it. Now they watch my endorsed candidates win big victories and see my dominance in all polls. They're trying to stop me. And the Republican Party wants more. The lawlessness, political persecution, witch hunt. Witch hunt must be exposed and stopped. I will continue to fight for the great American people. So I. Wow. I personally think that this has to do with the 15 boxes of top secret documents Donald took from the White House when he lost really badly in the election to Joe Biden, who won by a lot. And, you know, so you wonder, like, why don't you just subpoena him? And Ellie Honig tells cnn, that's probably because no one thinks Donald would respond in good faith to a subpoena.

Andy Kroll (9:27)

You think?

Alison Gill (9:28)

And that could be because maybe they're investigating him for telling people to ignore subpoenas as well. Who knows? But we will bring you more, as we know. But that's where My beans are. It's about the 15 boxes. Give me the beans. And Dana, this just in, right this second. The New York Times has confirmed the search is about the 15 boxes of documents.

Andy Kroll (9:48)

There you have it.

Alison Gill (9:48)

Per three sources familiar. And the search was around his personal office and personal quarters in his safe. And the raid lasted several hours, most of today. It started early this morning. We didn't hear about it until much, much later.

Andy Kroll (10:03)

Well, I would skip the safe and go right to the toilet in his office. It's going to be.

Alison Gill (10:08)

I've bought some Matthew Whitaker big dick toilets. I can flush many more documents with the giant dick toilets in my home.

Andy Kroll (10:15)

I mean, the toilets, they don't flush anymore. You have to flush them two, three times to get well. That's because you're flushing. Okay. Oh, man.

Alison Gill (10:22)

More water. We need water.

Andy Kroll (10:24)

I cannot wait to see what happens with this.

Alison Gill (10:27)

Oh, my God.

Andy Kroll (10:29)

Oh. Now I'm moving on to an incredible woman also named Dana. Michigan's Attorney General is requesting a special prosecutor to be named to investigate her Trump endorsed opponent, citing evidence tying him to a potentially criminal scheme to seize and tamper with voting machines. That's according to documents obtained by Politico.

Alison Gill (10:48)

So it wasn't Italy with satellites.

Andy Kroll (10:51)

I know. Isn't that shocking?

Alison Gill (10:52)

It was Republicans.

Andy Kroll (10:54)

Oh, yeah. And we're going to investigate the shit out of them. The decision comes after a months long investigation by Michigan State Police and the Attorney General Dana Nestle, into voting machine breaches that took place in several Michigan counties. Now, that investigation unexpectedly led to Kalamazoo lawyer Matthew DiPerno, who former President Donald Trump has taken an outsized interest in promoting to be Michigan's next Attorney General.

Alison Gill (11:20)

My candidates are winning with huge endorsements. This is political persecution.

Andy Kroll (11:27)

So AG, according, this is according to an August 5th petition from Nestle's office requesting a special prosecutor. Diperno, in concert with two other people, quote, orchestrated a coordinated plan to gain access to voting tabulators that were illegally seized from county clerks.

Alison Gill (11:44)

Oh.

Andy Kroll (11:45)

Yep. The petition was formally made to the Michigan Prosecuting Attorney's Coordinating Counsel, an autonomous state body. Now in it, Nestle's Office states that DiPerno, who has been a pivotal figure promoting Trump's false allegations that the 2020 election was stolen. Was present.

Alison Gill (12:02)

Was stealing.

Andy Kroll (12:03)

I know was stealing. And the present at an Oakland county hotel room sometime early 2021. So during that meeting, tabulators were being tampered with. So according to people involved in the investigation, this is among multiple pieces of evidence. This isn't the only piece they have multiple pieces of evidence linking him, Diperno, to the breach of several voting machines. This is shit. Is. It's. They have evidence now. As it became evident that DiPerno was the subject of the investigation, Nestle's office decided to request a special prosecutor so as to try to avoid the appearance of obviously political motivation. And that's according to the request.

Alison Gill (12:41)

I just have it in my head, like the, you know, the Zoolander, where the. The files are in the computer and they're like, oh, the 2001 Space Oddity is happening. And he throws the computer to get the files out from inside the computer. That's what I imagine Diperno doing in that hotel room.

Andy Kroll (13:01)

Let's get the votes out.

Alison Gill (13:04)

Just ham with the hammer.

Andy Kroll (13:08)

You guys.

Alison Gill (13:09)

I think AG has lost her mind.

Andy Kroll (13:10)

And I'm enjoying every second of it. This is what elation feels like. This is what elation feels like when there's a good news day and we're not in the good news block. All right, this is a quote. When this investigation began, there was not a conflict of interest. However, during the course of the investigation, facts were developed that Diperno was one of the prime instigators of this conspiracy. And that's what the petition says. And it went on to say, conflict arises when the prosecuting attorney has a personal interest, financial or emotional, in the litigation. And that's again from the petition. So DiPerno is set to formally receive the GOP nomination for attorney General later this month after winning the endorsement of the party delegates last April. Now, Michigan's law, it makes it a five year felony. A five year felony for a person to, quote, obtain undue possession, a voting machine used in an election.

Alison Gill (14:01)

This guy is.

Andy Kroll (14:02)

He's looking at a five year felony. And that's according to that letter.

Alison Gill (14:06)

He just obtained it. And he wants to be the Attorney General. Of course he does.

Andy Kroll (14:11)

That's the only way they're gonna win these states.

Alison Gill (14:13)

Oh, okay. Let's see if I can pull it together.

Andy Kroll (14:16)

No, don't. I mean, who needs to at this point?

Alison Gill (14:19)

In an extremely underreported story today that I was just hammering out as this whole fucking Mar a Lago raid was breaking. The Department of Justice, namely Matt Graves, who is the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, and Thomas Windham, who was the guy they brought in to lead, you know, the. The suits part of the boots and suits investigations, they submitted a filing to the court rejecting John Eastman's motion to have his phone returned to him. I want my phone back. You Guys, I want you to have all the stuff. I want all the stuff on my phone back, and if you made copies, I want you to destroy all that. Now, I have read a lot of Department of Justice filings, as you know, a lot. And this one stands out because it alludes to potential future criminal indictments, and it hints at the scope and type of investigation and possible crimes that the Department of Justice is investigating without really saying it. It's almost like Graves and Windom are like, you know, a lot of times, Dana, they'll put out a speaking indictment. Like when they indicted Gates or a Manafort during the Mueller investigation, and they gave all these details about the crimes they committed so we learn what happened. It's called a speaking indictment. This was like a speaking court filing, because it didn't go on to say those things directly, but it sure did hint at it. Most important thing I read in the 24 page filing is Graves and Windham's response to Eastman's argument that the Department of Justice Office of Inspector General executed the search warrant. Remember when we talked about that, that there was OIG that seized his phone and also Clark's? I was like, that's weird. Why is the OIG doing this? And Eastman said, the Department of Justice Office of Inspector General doesn't have jurisdiction over me. Eastman says, hey, the OIG can only investigate current and former DOJ officials. I've never worked at the doj, so give me my phone back. But the response to that argument is fucking epic. Here's what Graves and Windom say. Assuming that an agent from the U.S. department of Justice's Office of Inspector General obtained the warrant, Eastman says that the Office of Inspector General, quote, has outstripped its mandate by targeting a person outside of the Department of Justice and has no jurisdiction over me. Eastman. As support the DOJ continues, Eastman cites that the DOJ OIG has authority to, quote, only investigate allegations of criminal wrongdoing or administrative misconduct by a person who is the head of an agency or component of the Department of Justice, unquote. He goes on to say, and this is what makes Graves and Windham badasses, they say. Citing no relevant case law, Eastman suggests that such investigations cannot involve evidence obtained from a person outside of the doj. As a matter of common sense, he is incorrect. An investigation of wrongdoing by one individual routinely involves obtaining evidence from others, particularly in cases involving conspiracies. Whoopsie. And nobody asked them, are you looking into conspiracy here? Nobody. They didn't. This isn't a citation of case Law like, oh, well, you know, in Butthole v. Margo, back in 1962, they say, you know, you can look at the doji, can look at you if you're, you know, if you not work for the doj, because you could be involved in a conspiracy with somebody in the Department of Justice.

Andy Kroll (17:52)

I really need to know what case. Butthole v. Margo.

Alison Gill (17:55)

I just made it up.

Andy Kroll (17:56)

I know you did. And now I want everyone who's listening to write in as what you think the plaintiffs and the defendants were in Butthole v. Margo.

Alison Gill (18:06)

It's where Margo was wondering what was inside your butthole.

Andy Kroll (18:09)

There you go.

Alison Gill (18:09)

And she sang a song about it. So, yeah, absolutely nobody. Dot, dot, dot, doj. This could be a conspiracy, you know, so we need to look, we need to look at people who are outside the Department of Justice who might have conspired, you know, for crimes with somebody who's in the doj. So they just offered this information. They never asked for this. No one asked, was like, well, is this a conspiracy? Why am I, you know. So the DOJ actually mentions indictments a few times, seven times to be exact, in this filing, quote, Eastman clearly seeks to prevent the government from using any of the materials to seek an indictment against him. Okay, all right. And they say the government is not precluded from using such property in seeking an indictment against Eastman. That's pretty that. I've never heard them talk like this in a filing before. It's kind of turning me on. Another mention, quote, the mere threat of imminent indictment doesn't establish irreparable injury. Because, you know, he's saying, if you don't give me my phone back, I'll be irreparably harmed. Right, like just because you are facing imminent indictment. And again, nobody asked them, nobody asked them if he was going to be indicted. Also, once a movement has been indicted, an adequate legal remedy is available in the district court with jurisdiction over the indictment, and equitable jurisdiction is no longer necessary or proper. You can come and complain about it when we indict you, is what they're saying. I paraphrased that last bit. And then also at this pre indictment stage is what they call it not, not this investigation, you're sheer basket indicted they call the pre indictment stage. There's no legal basis to order return of evidence, let alone countenance the suppression of the fruits of authorized search warrants. To do so would essentially negate two search warrants issued by duly authorized courts of competent jurisdiction without allowing the government use of the evidence. Or any arguments regarding exceptions to any purported errors within the warrant. And then they continue to say such an unprecedented purge. Giving your phone back would cause substantial detriment to the investigation, as well as seriously impede any grand jury's use of the seized material in future charging decisions. It's, like, really interesting, you know, especially the part where you don't have to be a DOJ employee to be investigated by the Inspector General of the DoJ. If you're part of. As long as you're part of a conspiracy with someone in the doj, we can do that.

Andy Kroll (20:35)

Amazing.

Alison Gill (20:35)

We know you didn't ask us about that, but.

Andy Kroll (20:37)

But we're going to let you know. We're just going to let you know. And I decided Butthole vs Margot has to do with megaplastics.

Alison Gill (20:45)

Okay, I can see that.

Andy Kroll (20:46)

Yep. There's something in there. The butthole was like. That was a little too much.

Alison Gill (20:51)

Charismatic megaplastics, I believe that was our January 5, 2021.

Andy Kroll (20:55)

Oh, yeah. When you had your Simpsons episode where we figured out everything that was about to happen in the country.

Alison Gill (21:02)

Yeah. And you're like, nobody knows what this fucking crazy guy's capable of.

Andy Kroll (21:05)

And then we're about to find out. And this last story, as intense as it is, and I don't want to say it's just to serve, because you can't bring someone back that should not have been murdered. But the father and son convicted of murdering Ahmaud Arbery, they were both given an additional sentence of life in prison Monday on federal hate crimes charges, while their neighbor was sentenced to 35 years in prison. That neighbor is the one, I believe, that filmed it. Thank God.

Alison Gill (21:30)

Motherfucker.

Andy Kroll (21:31)

A judge also required that Travis McMichael, 36, Greg McMichael, 66, and William Roddy Bryan, 52, serve their sentences in state prison, not federal prison, as had been requested by their attorneys. This is a quote. A young man is dead. Ahmaud Arbery will be forever 25. And what happened, a jury found happened because he's black. That's you as. Yeah, that's U.S. district Judge Lisa Godby Wood. She said that during Greg McMichael's sentencing. What a statement. Ahmaud Arbery will forever be 25.

Alison Gill (22:03)

And a jury found happened because he's black. And that's what the doj, that's what Merrick Garland and his civil rights division absolutely. Were pushing.

Andy Kroll (22:12)

That's right. The men, Michaels and Bryan, who are all white. We know this. They were found guilty in February on federal hate Crimes charges in the killing of Arbery, a black man who was running in their neighborhood. When the defendants confronted him in February 2020, they ran him down in a truck. The three men were convicted of all of the federal charges against them, including hate crimes, attempted to kidnapping, and the use of a firearm to commit a crime. Prosecutors sought life sentences for all three men. However, Godby woods said she thought it was necessary to distinguish Bryan from the McMichaels, in part because, unlike his neighbors, he did not bring a gun with him when the men chased Arbery. This is a quote. It's not lost on the court that two men brought guns to that situation had their worst effect and you weren't one of them, she said. She added, however, that Brian was still deserving of an awfully long sentence. And yes, he was. Went on to say, by the time you serve your federal sentence, you'll be close to 90 years old. But again, Mr. Arbery never got the chance to be 26.

Alison Gill (23:14)

Oh, God.

Andy Kroll (23:15)

I know. Fuck. I determined that. The sentence imposed is a very lengthy summary, and it is one that has been earned. Very articulate, Judge. My goodness. Prosecutor. Prosecutor Tara Lyons called the sentencing hearings, quote, the end of that. At least one chapter in an excruciatingly painful journey for Ahmaud Arbery's family, for his community, and for an entire nation that has wept for Ahmaud. The men were sentenced separately in back to back trials on Monday. Amy Lee Copeland, Travis McMichael's attorney, asked during his sentencing that the judge allow her client to serve his sentence in federal prison because she said he had received, quote, hundreds of threats that would probably be killed in state custody. A.J. balbo, an attorney for Greg McMichael, told the judge he was medically, quote, not fit to serve his sentence in a state prison prosecution. And members of Arbery's family asked that the McMichael serve their sentences in state prison. And that is exactly what they got. State prison.

Alison Gill (24:14)

Yeah, that is what they got. And, man, what a. What a powerful period on the end of that. But it's never over. Nope. And it's certainly not over for the Arbery family, who, as the judge said, he will never get to be 26. It's just super. So powerful. All right, thank you. Thank you for that story. We will have more right after the break. I'm going to be talking with the author Andy Kroll to discuss his book, Death on W, the Murder of Seth Rich and the Age of Conspiracy. You don't want to miss that. We'll Be back with the good news after that.

Andy Kroll (24:44)

Stay with us after these messages.

Alison Gill (24:47)

We'll be right back. Hey everybody, welcome back. I am happy today to be joined by an investigative reporter for ProPublica, author of a Death on W Street, the Murder of Seth Rich and the Age of Conspiracy. Please welcome Andy Kroll. Hi Andy.

Dana Goldberg (25:08)

Hey, it's great to be here.

Alison Gill (25:10)

It is so great to speak to you because this is a book that has been a long time coming and is the definitive story of Seth Rich and not just about his murder and the fallout from that, but the conspiracy theories and the way that the right used this information as propaganda to promote their absolutely false theories on the deep state and things like that. I wanted to start off, first of all, tell us a little bit about your time at ProPublica because absolutely an incredible organization, but then also how that sort of was subsumed into you wanting to write this book.

Dana Goldberg (25:54)

I've been writing about the intersection of politics and power and technology, big money for my entire decade plus career in journalism. As you mentioned, I write for ProPublica now. I've been here couple of months, fairly new to the place. Before that I was the Washington bureau chief for Rolling Stone magazine. That was a great gig. But ProPublica has always been this sort of shining tower of all that is good and wholesome about investigative journalism in this country. I've read their stuff for as long as I, I think as long as ProPublica has existed, to be honest. And so when the chance came to go to ProPublica and to take a job there, not just to be able to be there in the first place, but to be writing about democracy, the threats to it, the sort of funders and enablers and whole ecosystem of conspiracy theorists laying siege to American democracy right now. That was an offer that I could not, I could not turn down. Now all of those themes and subjects that I just mentioned, democracy, power, conspiracy theories, our whole information ecosystem in America are part of this new book of mine. But interestingly, that's not where the idea for the book came from. We're talking nearly five years ago is when I started down this path, when I had the idea to do A Death on W Street. But the origins of the book are actually quite personal. Seth rich was a 27 year old staffer for the Democratic Party here in Washington D.C. where I live. When he was killed in the summer of 2016, I knew people who were friends with him. We ran in similar social circles here in Washington. I played on a crappy weekend rec soccer team that he also played on. It was a team with a bunch of people from a polling firm he used to work on. And they would have me fill in when they needed extra bodies on the weekends when everyone else was too hungover to show up. And so in the summer of 2016, when Seth is murdered here in DC, there is really a sort of personal reaction I have at first. It is a reaction really of, that's horrible. Gosh, like, I knew that guy. My friends were messaging me about it. Can you believe this? And a little bit of a there but for the grace of God go I. Because, you know, who, who hasn't walked home late at night from a bar, maybe a little too late, like. Like Seth had. So it was really a personal start for me for this book. But what I found from there is that the story of Seth and what happened after his death, you know, really is sort of a through line for the last five, six crazy years in this country. And it gets to all these bigger questions and crises and dilemmas. But I didn't know that at first. At first it was just a sort of a personal instinct of like, what is going on here? How did this happen? You know, I need to understand this because something bigger is going on and I need to figure it out.

Alison Gill (29:17)

Yeah, and start a little bit with what some of these. What were some of the bigger conspiracy theories that your research clearly debunked? And I mean, any, you know, any reasonable investigative reporter or even sort of kind of investigative reporter's research would debunk these conspiracy theories and talk a little bit about the amount of research that went into this book. It's at. It's mind boggling.

Dana Goldberg (29:41)

The real main conspiracy theory thread as it relates to Seth Rich is that Seth was this whistleblower insider who was working at the DNC and was supposedly exposing some kind of corruption there of the Clinton family. Obviously Hillary Clinton was the Democratic nominee in 2016 and that Seth Rich was somehow trying to exposed this nefarious information and was killed by the Clinton cabal for trying to surface whatever it was he was going to. To surface. And there are, as you might imagine, riffs and variations, different flavors of this theory. There are some that say it was a Russian hit team that had taken, taken out scare quotes. Seth Rich. There are some flavors that it was the deep state, the FBI, the CIA that, you know, saw him as some kind of insider threat and were orders to take him out. There is also a vein that it was the gang. Ms. 13. This is Marjorie Taylor Greene's preferred flavor of the Seth Rich conspiracy theory, a strain of this theory that she actively promoted in the years before she became a member of Congress. One of several members of Congress who have spouted a version of the Seth Rich conspiracy theory. So there are multiple versions of it. I have spent the last five years up to my eyeballs in this world, sifting through old Twitter threads, digging up old videos, interviewing anyone who ever knew Seth Rich, people that he worked with, people in Democratic politics, people in Republican politics. You know, I came to think of myself as a social media archaeologist almost, where every day I'd get up there and have my little brush and I'd be sort of sweeping, brushing away, trying to piece back together how this unbelievable chain of events happened, this unbelievable sequence in which a young guy is killed here in D.C. really, this is a tragic case of wrong place, wrong time, as happens in big cities all over the country all the time. And yet somehow, through this sequence of events, it becomes this international conspiracy theory. And for some people on the political right, a kind of article of faith. Right up there with Pizzagate and Stop the steel and QAnon. And I just had to go back and figure out how that happened. And it took years to do it, and a lot of work and whole hard drives full of data trying to keep it all in one place and piece this thing back together.

Alison Gill (32:34)

Yeah, I can't even, like, I can't begin to imagine the amount of information, data, research, you know, old Internet archives and Twitter threads and Facebook posts and Instagram posts. I mean, it's so wide ranging. I think what's most interesting to me is, is how when one of these conspiracy theories pop up, how much of a person's life, not ours as journalists, but like a conspiracy theorist spreader or youtuber gets poured into spending time down these rabbit holes and like, how much more productive as a society we would be if these folks just had like regular jobs and were contributing to the tax revenue, you know, because it's a lot of work to be a conspiracy theorist. And what was sort of your sense of which of these folks knew they were bullshitting and which of these folks literally believed this? I mean, it seems like there's a couple of core leaders and this sort of works for most conspiracy theories that know it's bullshit and spread it. And we talked about. I know we had seen some information about Manafort coming out where he had admitted in text messages that this was a conspiracy theory. And that still didn't deter people because they get so ingrained in their beliefs that when you tell them you're falling for propaganda, much like a cult member. They dig their heels in harder. Did you sort of get a sense of how many of these folks were just, I mean, suckers?

Dana Goldberg (34:06)

Yeah. The interesting thing about doing the book and what I realized partway through that just pushed me forward more was that the Seth Rich saga brought up all the different sort of typologies here, the different categories of conspiracy theorists or political operatives, opportunists, grifters, you know, maga, true believers that glom onto, you know, a conspiracy theory that's, that is big in the culture. You know, what I saw in the Seth Rich story, you could apply again to QAnon, stop the steel Pizzagate, the COVID denial vax or anti vax movement. So you saw true believers, for sure. People who, I could not find any reason why they would be spouting this nonsense about Seth Rich other than that they believe that it was true through some swirling mix of distrust and paranoia and fear and sort of, you know, partisan antagonism. You had a group of opportunists, I would say, and I'll rattle off some names here that, you know, your listeners will know extremely well. Roger Stone, he stoked this conspiracy theory repeatedly over a span of multiple years. Roger Stone knows better. Roger Stone is not a true believer, I think, in anything other than Roger Stone.

Alison Gill (35:39)

Yeah, true.

Dana Goldberg (35:40)

Roger Stone is doing this because he knows it serves the cause, his cause. And he did it at very specific moments in 2016 and 2017 where you knew he was doing it for partisan reasons. Steve Bannon, another one. Steve Bannon promoted this theory. Steve Bannon does not believe this. Steve Bannon is doing this again to support Trump, to support the cause, to advance his own interests. And then there's a whole nother really interesting group. There's a guy in the book I write about, his name is Matt Couch. These are people who came to see the sethbridge conspiracy theory as, you know, almost a business social media opportunity.

Alison Gill (36:23)

Sort of like how Alex Jones viewed the, the Sandy Hook shooting as a money making opportunity.

Dana Goldberg (36:29)

Yeah, that's right. You look at people in this situation where, you know, they are on Twitter, they're on Facebook or nowadays true social getter, whatever platforms they've, they've sort of been pushed off to. They are not only promoting these conspiracy theories and pushing what they're saying to the extreme as much as possible, but they are raising money on these crowdfunding platforms. They are selling T shirts, they're selling hats, they're asking for subscriptions. There is A whole industrial complex that's built up around these big conspiracy theories. And this story, this book, was a sort of case study of that, a way to sort of look at one conspiracy theory and see all of these different people and how they're sort of glomming onto it, kind of grabbing on for the ride and holding on, and in some cases, lining their pockets as well. So now I think that the true believers definitely outnumber the operatives and the money makers, but you've got them all across the spectrum, and you'll see this at any conspiracy theory you look at.

Alison Gill (37:35)

Yeah. And I mean, the amount of money made off of these lies is just. It's mind blowing. And it's also sad when you think about these folks who are primed and prepped to want to believe things that support their internal beliefs without any basis in fact, who fall for these things and then send their money in. I mean, we see it in all kinds of cults and conspiracy theories, and that's just how these things grab hold. Is that confirmation bias that people are like, well, I hate the Democrats, so this makes sense that they would do this. And then they incorporate into there. You put it in their pocket of conspiracy theories and. And move forward and spread those lies further. And you did a lot of research with Seth Rich's family as well. What is their sense of kind of how this took root and wouldn't let go and still to this day hasn't let go?

Dana Goldberg (38:35)

I think I spent probably a few dozen hours at least, talking to Seth Rich's parents, talking to his brother Aaron, who, as I write in the book, was, in his own way, sort of sucked into the conspiratorial vortex. He had to file his own lawsuit trying to clear his name, talk to friends, talk to colleagues. I think a big part of this whole debacle for them, tragedy for them, a double one, really. Your child is killed, and then his life and his death becomes this completely unrecognizable, insane thing afterward. You know, I think a big part of it for them is the uncertainty over who actually killed Seth. And the police have said repeatedly that his neighborhood had been plagued by robberies that matched the details of what we know happened with Seth. What the police have said happened when Seth. So there's not a lot of mystery there from what the police say, but the fact that there is not a face and a name put on that, I think the parents believe that that is still a sort of way that a little bit of oxygen continues to go in and feed the conspiracy Theory now more than six years later. And I think they believe that the sort of polarization and the way that people get information, whether it's from Facebook, whether it's from true social, whether it's just from their, you know, friends, family, people who believe the same stuff, they do this sort of filter bubble issue that they think that, you know, these factors are all kind of combining, and it was tragic bad luck that it was their son who became the focus of all this. I mean, what really drew me to their story was their decision to try to fight back. That is Act 3 of the book is Joel and Mary Rich, Seth's parents, and then Aaron Rich, his brother, trying to use the justice system to fight viral conspiracy theories, to try to clear Seth's name in Aaron's case, clear his own name, and to try to maybe create some kind of deterrence for not only the conspiracy theories in their La Z Boy couch promoting these things, but in this case, Fox News, which was a huge promoter of the Seth Rich story back in 2017 and trying to hold Fox accountable for what it said about Seth.

Alison Gill (41:04)

Yeah. And I'm hoping things like the Dominion lawsuits and the Alex Jones lawsuits and now the lawsuits against Donald Trump for inciting the January 6 insurrection with the big lie on his conspiracy theories that are now allowed to go forward hopefully will have an impact a little bit on some of that. And, I mean, it's a testament to the amount of conspiracy theories that are out there about Seth Rich that when you reached out to the podcast to say, hey, I'm pro public, got this new book, Seth Rich, blah, blah, blah, my first thought was, okay, I need to look into this. Is the family cool with this? Did the. And I had a lot of questions, as Jesse the Body Ventura would say, because I wanted to make sure that this wasn't somebody coming forward with a book about Seth Rich that was just going to feed conspiracy theories. Then, of course, after, you know, doing some research, having the team do some research, looking at the book, looking at the reviews, I was like, okay, no, this is the correct side of, of how to present the. The facts in these cases. And, and that's why I, I was so excited to, to speak to you today and, and talk about this, because this story needs to be told. It needs to be told definitively. And that's what this book does. And it's scary, confusing, heartfelt. There's so many. There's facts and information, but it's also very emotional. And so I want to thank you for coming forward, being persistent, and Talking to me about this book, which I believe comes out September 9, but is right now currently available for pre order. And you're going to want to pre order it so that you, you know, because it's going to sell out, it's going to be a bestseller. And that this kind of information, this truth, that is the antiseptic to conspiracy theories, isn't it?

Dana Goldberg (42:48)

That, that's been my line all along. That's been my. I mean, when you talk about skepticism, hearing someone has a book about the Seth Rich story, wondering, is this legit? Did the family cooperate? I mean, that is a question that I have encountered and answered for the last five years. And what I've really found that has resonated with whether it's members of Seth's family, friends of his, or people completely unrelated but hear about this book, is the need to have truth counter this disinformation, to have facts, real reporting, real interviews, real research, doing that hard work to correct this really egregious wrong that has been done not just against a guy, Seth Rich, who can't even answer his critics, but also his parents, his family, his memory, his legacy. So I always felt that facts and truth were the antidote, the antiseptic, as you put it, so well to all the nonsense out there. And I don't think you'll find a more complete, convincing, comprehensive version of that than this book.

Alison Gill (43:58)

Yeah, and it's just truly an incredible piece of investigative journalism. I mean, five years worth of work to bring facts to light and to tamp down conspiracy theories. It's called A Death on W. The Murder of Seth Rich in the Age of Conspiracy. And the best thing that you can do to fight conspiracy theories and propaganda is to go and pre order a copy of this book. Because when we show the people, and we show the United States that people, the people are interested in the actual truth. Not the truth, but, you know, the actual truth, the facts about what happened. I think it sends a broader message to all conspiracy theorists who would seek to profit on these kinds of awful, terrible conspiracy theories at the expense of human people and their families and their lives. And so I really encourage everybody to pick up a copy again, Death on W Street. I thank you so much, Andy Kroll, for talking to me today about this. It's such an important piece of work.

Dana Goldberg (44:56)

It was a real pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for having me on.

Alison Gill (45:00)

No worries, everybody. Stick around. We'll be right back with the good news after these messages. We'll be right back, everybody. Welcome back. It's Time for the good news. Who likes good news? Everyone. Then good news everyone. Good news, good news. And if you have any good news or confessions, corrections, anything you want to send in, Halloween photos, what the mutt misheard song lyrics, your favorite swears, whatever you want to send into us will be stories. You can do it@dailybeanspod.com and click on Contact. And of course, if you want to come see myself and Steve Pearson from How We Win, the How We Win podcast and Frangela and the Midas Touch Boys and of course, Amen. Excuse me, Midas Touch Men and Kathy Griffin the inimitable Kathy Griffin at Largo in Los Angeles, August 22nd. You can do that by going to howwewewinlive.com every single dollar you spend on your ticket goes straight to to candidates who need it in the midterms. And we're going to raise some money.

Andy Kroll (46:12)

I love it.

Alison Gill (46:12)

It's going to be good. All right, first up from Paul. Pronouns he and him Dear Allison and Dana, I'd like to share a bit of good news from over the past week. My wife and I flew out to Utah to be with my daughter and her partner for my daughter's white coat ceremony to mark the start of her medical education. Excellent. I had written you earlier in the year when my daughter was first accepted to medical school to share the good news, but also the trepidation about moving to less than friendly LGBTQ Utah member.

Andy Kroll (46:38)

Mm, I do.

Alison Gill (46:39)

Dana did much to assuage our fears and provided excellent resources. Thanks so much for that. My daughter and her partner spend the month of July before school started, getting settled and getting used to their new home and its surroundings. They have a beautiful townhouse overlooking Utah Valley with the help of a very nice young man in the rental office and some of her classmates from the area. They found some nice restaurants, a couple bars where they could play darts and drink decent beer, as well as a nice drag brunch. Awesome. I love drag brunch. My wife and I spent a week around the white coat ceremony with my daughter and her partner, seeing the area and going on hikes in the surrounding mountains. Not too strenuous on us old folks. My daughter's partner had to fly back to Wisconsin to fulfill a military obligation. She's active duty Air Force, soon to be retiring. Dang. What a cool.

Andy Kroll (47:23)

I know. Awesome couple. My goodness.

Alison Gill (47:25)

So my wife is staying a couple more weeks so my daughter does not have to be alone her first couple weeks of school. I flew home to Chicago to take care of our Two kitties. And to give them some concentrated mother daughter time, I'm enclosing a picture of our student, Dr. Claire. We are so proud. Since no post is complete without a pet photo pet pic, I'm enclosing a picture of Eloise and Luigi. Luigi is the tuxedo. Of course he is. What is it with. We had a tuxedo named Guido.

Andy Kroll (47:52)

Why, that's amazing.

Alison Gill (47:54)

Named after father Guido Sarducci. Actually doing what they do best on a hot summer day in Chicago. Thanks for all. You do the hard work that goes into providing the podcast as well as the rest of the MSW media empire. I do miss Dana when she's gone now and then, but I'm happy to know that she's out there sharing her immense talents and making the world a better place.

Andy Kroll (48:10)

Thank you, Paul.

Alison Gill (48:12)

Also, day in, day out, Allison does such an amazing job with the news and lining up her super interesting guests that daily beans is an essential, essential part of the start of every day. Look at this beautiful doctor to be.

Andy Kroll (48:23)

I know. Your daughter's eyes are gorgeous. I'm sure she gets them from you guys. This is awesome. She's so happy too. I know.

Alison Gill (48:31)

I know that you could tell. Like, so happy.

Andy Kroll (48:34)

White coats are sexy.

Alison Gill (48:36)

Look at the kittens. Hello, Luigi.

Andy Kroll (48:39)

So, so sweet.

Alison Gill (48:41)

So cute. Thank you for that. You want to take the next couple?

Andy Kroll (48:44)

Sure, I'm happy to. Here we go. This is from Casey. No pronouns given. Hello, Ag and Dana. Glad Dana's back. Thank you. Here's a what the mutt. My granddaughter Simba. Hint, he is not what he seems. Well, that's not gonna help us at all.

Alison Gill (48:59)

Wow.

Andy Kroll (48:59)

He looks like a bit of a.

Alison Gill (49:01)

A giraffe mixed with a very long leg.

Andy Kroll (49:04)

That's a very long legged dog. Okay, I'm seeing different pictures. I see a little bit of lab. I see Ridgeback and maybe sh. Those look like back shepherd legs, but also sort of great dainey.

Alison Gill (49:20)

It's got a Dane feel, but terrier ears.

Andy Kroll (49:23)

I get a Dane feel in there for sure.

Alison Gill (49:25)

And then of course, a chow chow. Maybe a husky and a Chihuahua. Yeah, we gotta put something in there that makes no sense. Oh, wait, look at this next one. That looks like lab.

Andy Kroll (49:34)

Yep.

Alison Gill (49:35)

All right, let's see. Maybe it's one of those like Andalorian or Andalusian or whatever. Blood.

Andy Kroll (49:40)

Well, there's a lot of things in here that I've never heard of.

Alison Gill (49:44)

Great Pyrenees.

Andy Kroll (49:45)

That of course we know, but I did not. I mean, very skinny Pyrenees.

Alison Gill (49:51)

A treeing walker, Coonhound. Okay, so that's where I thought of the hound dogs and then catapula. Leopard dog. That's what I was thinking of. I'm an andalusian and that was on.

Andy Kroll (50:00)

The tip of my tongue. Callahoo leopard dogged right there. 8% super mutt.

Alison Gill (50:05)

Which I guarantee is everything else.

Andy Kroll (50:08)

Everything else we just said.

Alison Gill (50:09)

Yep, for sure. Concur.

Andy Kroll (50:11)

All right. And I'll take this one Heather and pronoun she and her Heather. Hello ladies. I'm a newish listener and I wanted to share some good news. The other night I worked my first campaign event that I helped plan for Derek Marshall who's running for California's 23 district. 23rd district. We had a meet and greet back to school supply drive. Nice for the school district in town. As a fellow teacher, I thought this would be great way to connect with the community while giving back. We had a successful turnout and brought in lots of donations for the teachers. By the way, Derek would be a great candidate to have on your flip it blue segment. We're doing our best to take down the democracy denying incumbent Jay Obernolz. I don't know if that's how you say Jay's last name, but it's gotta be close. Thank you for all you do. You are the first thing we listen to each morning and you give me hope in these dark days. By the way, I'm sending a pic of the donations and of Derek in front of our beautiful Yucaipa.

Alison Gill (51:05)

Yucaipa.

Andy Kroll (51:06)

Yucaipa. California sunset. And that is gorgeous sunset. And Derek is adorable.

Alison Gill (51:12)

That is a long legged dude.

Andy Kroll (51:13)

It is a long legged dude.

Alison Gill (51:15)

I bet he's part Pyrenees Coonhead High five, my friend.

Andy Kroll (51:28)

No, all these donations, school supplies. I mean the fact that they teachers even need donations infuriates me.

Alison Gill (51:35)

Yeah, I know, but what a cool idea to combine a campaign event with a fun drive for totally school supplies. So cool. And Yucaipa is beautiful and that's a gorgeous sunset. Derek Marshall. Yeah, if you can put me in touch with him, I totally have him on the flip it blue segment.

Andy Kroll (51:49)

Do it.

Alison Gill (51:50)

All right, next up from pronoun she and her anonymous hello ladies of the beans. Here's a picture of my new happy place. Riding around town makes me feel like one less car vibe. It has five electric assist settings, 500 watt lithium battery. Betty boop is a trike with fatty tires. Broke as hell but happy to get out of the house more. So here's the bad news. Thumb surgery. That looks like trapeze Trapezo. Me trapeze. Ectomy on my left hand means no riding or driving for a while. I'll be doing the right hand in six months, unless I chicken out. Oh, you got to do them both. Oh. Anyway, for now I can ride down to the park and enjoy the free concerts. I listen religiously every day. So keep up the great job. We're going to celebrate something huge when Orange Banana face goes to prison. Oh, hell, I don't know about that, but he was rated as fuck today. Oh, look at that. Beautiful bridge.

Andy Kroll (52:40)

I know. That is gorgeous. Well, much healing. Fast healing to you. I hope it goes well. All right, this next one's from Alan. No pronouns given. Hashtag team beans. Obligatory Long time, first time. I love that. Just wanted to send a thanks out for covering the news with the appropriate amount of disdain and disgust. Perhaps ratings on the networks would be higher if they admitted that they were out of fucks to give as well. While there has been a fair amount of good news about for me, nothing tops the PACT act passage.

Alison Gill (53:12)

Yes, yes.

Andy Kroll (53:13)

As a disabled vet, thank you for your service, Alan. As a disabled vet, with claims stalled at 80%, the passage may be enough to fill the gap in my coverage. I'm only able to work about six months straight before an injury or mental health issue happens and I'm back on the injured reserve for six more months. My pet tax is a recent addition to my home. A terrorist known as Lex who plays from 6.06 to 13 o'. Clock. And that is definitely a military time. And from 16 o' clock to midnight, any perceived requests for pets during that period is in fact a trap. Keep up the good work.

Alison Gill (53:50)

06 to 13 and 16 to midnight. Look at, look at his legs. It's like.

Andy Kroll (53:55)

Oh, look at the second picture.

Alison Gill (53:58)

Oh my goodness. Look at the murder mittens.

Andy Kroll (54:01)

I know a keyboard has seen some shit too.

Alison Gill (54:05)

It's a little creamsicle. So adorable. Thank you for that and thank you for your service, Alan. And yeah, I think you can get to 100. I think you can get to 100 with the PACT Act. That'd be impressive and amazing and well deserved. Last up from Lynn the pronoun. She and her dearest Lagunati. Love your show no pets. But I did use the AI Crayon.com to create some pets for me. Oh, cool. This prompt was portrait of a dog dressed in a trench coat with a hat with space above the head. Light background. Oil on canvas, that is.

Andy Kroll (54:41)

Oh my God. Oh my God, these are fantastic.

Alison Gill (54:45)

Have you played with these like the dolly or the. No, these are so fun. These little AI things you could put like. Like I put. I put in the Oval Office fight. Like that big meeting that took place on December 18, and it's just a bunch of fucking people beating the shit out of each other in the Oval Office.

Andy Kroll (55:04)

Oh, my God. That's hilarious.

Alison Gill (55:07)

Oh, look at this. How fun. Yeah, these are fun.

Andy Kroll (55:13)

These are fantastic. Someone should paint these, like, for real.

Alison Gill (55:17)

Thanks for sending these in, Lynn. These are great. And hey, you know what? Everybody do the dolly thing. Or it's either Dall E D, A L L e or crayon. C-R-A I D Y-O-N dot com. You tell it what to draw and it draws it for you. It's amazing.

Andy Kroll (55:33)

That's awesome.

Alison Gill (55:34)

Send in your versions to us. That'd be a new, fun game. Send us your Dall E and we will talk about it on the air. If you have anything to send into us, do so@dailybeanspod.com. don't forget to get your tickets to howwewinlive.com for Largo in Los Angeles, August 22nd. Me, Kathy Griffin, Midas Touch, Frangela. How we win. Steve Pearson. It's going to be so much fun. It's going to be so fun. We might even have some surprise guests.

Andy Kroll (56:03)

I am so sorry to miss it, but yes, get tickets. Go support.

Alison Gill (56:07)

Any final thoughts before we get out of here today on this raid to Mar a Lago day?

Andy Kroll (56:11)

Not today. Actually, I do have a final thought. If all the beans listeners can just put out a. A prayer, a thought, love, whatever you believe in. Just put a good one out there for health, for someone dear and near to me. Just a peacefulness. I would appreciate it.

Alison Gill (56:31)

Sending them your way, my friend. Everybody got that?

Andy Kroll (56:34)

Thank you.

Alison Gill (56:36)

All right, we'll be back tomorrow. I don't know what the fuck else can happen.

Andy Kroll (56:40)

Oh, my God. Hopefully something good. Maybe they're going to. Maybe they'll raid Kushner. Like, maybe we'll get them just like Ivanka and Jared. That would be amazing.

Alison Gill (56:49)

I would say Rudy, but we already rated him, like, twice.

Andy Kroll (56:52)

I know. Maybe Junior's cocaine palace.

Alison Gill (56:55)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Perhaps. All right, till tomorrow, everybody. Please take care of yourselves, take care of each other, take care of the planet, take care of your mental health, and vote blue over Q. I've been.

Andy Kroll (57:04)

AG and I've been dg and them's the beans.

Alison Gill (57:06)

Refried beans. I like refried beans.