Script Flip (feat. Heather Cox Richardson)

Summary

The Daily Beans — “Script Flip” (feat. Heather Cox Richardson)

Date: February 16, 2026
Podcast: The Daily Beans
Hosts: Alison Gill, Dana Goldberg
Featured Guest: Heather Cox Richardson, historian and author of "Letters from an American"

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Overview

In this episode, Alison Gill and Dana Goldberg break down the latest in progressive political news, focusing intensely on the theme of the “script flip”—how the current and recent Republican administrations have turned core American democratic and legal principles upside down. The heart of the episode features a deep-dive interview with historian Heather Cox Richardson about the weaponization of government, the transformation of institutions like the Department of Justice (DOJ) and Homeland Security, and how authoritarian playbooks twist laws and narratives—making the government the supposed "victim" and casting rights advocates and protesters as "agitators" or even "domestic terrorists." The hosts and guest also reflect on resistance, hope, and the critical power of citizen action, especially via juries and organized public pressure.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

Hot Notes: This Week’s Political News

[01:07–20:00]

• Feds caught lying about an assault on ICE officers; charges dismissed. Body cam evidence contradicted testimony.
• Homeland Security demanding social media data on anti-ICE users; tech companies like Google, Meta, Reddit partly complied.
• Ring Cameras & Political Backlash: Ring walked back integration with ICE after exposure and outrage.
• Russ Vought’s Security Detail: Former OMB chief using USAID funds for personal protection—$15 million meant for aid reallocated.
• Corey Lewandowski’s Gun Request: Trump advisor sought government-issued firearm via ICE; legal counsel opposed and was punished.
• ICE Detainee Rights & Legal Wins: Federal judge rebukes ICE for constitutional violations in Minnesota, mandates reforms.
• Virginia Redistricting Victory: VA Supreme Court allows Democratic redistricting referendum to proceed despite GOP legal tactics.

Notable Quotes:

• "Is everybody allergic to the word lie, Dana? Like, you know, ‘misstate.’”
  — Alison Gill [06:41]
• “Political backlash works. I still don’t trust Amazon or Flock or ICE, but at least there was enough backlash.”
  — Alison Gill [05:05]

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Heather Cox Richardson Interview: Authoritarian Script Flipping

[25:05–70:10]

The Main Theme: The “Script Flip”

• Modern authoritarians are flipping the founding ideals of the US government—using the DOJ and federal power to prosecute peaceful dissenters, while repositioning white grievance as the victim narrative.
• Laws originally meant to protect civil rights now wielded to suppress them (e.g., Section 241, FACE Act).
• Propaganda and prosecution target lawmakers, journalists, peaceful protesters.

Granular Insights:

• The DOJ was founded (1870) to protect the rights of Black Americans post-Civil War; the current power structure inverts that mission.

  “What they’re trying to do is say only white people… should be protected by the government. It is as if the Confederates took over the United States and created their own Department of Justice.”
  — Heather Cox Richardson [28:09–32:04]

• The consolidation and abuse of power is driven by the same playbook used after Reconstruction and in other periods of U.S. history.

• Core democratic rights are being “weaponized against us”—lawfare, surveillance, grand jury manipulations, juridical harassment of opposition.

• Laws meant to protect (e.g., the Ku Klux Klan Act or FACE Act) are twisted to target Black leaders or abortion providers.

Historical Parallels & Malleability of Coalitions

• Comparing the current era to the 1850s (birth of the GOP as a coalition to fight the slaveholder oligarchy): “People know they hate the other side more than they dislike each other. Alliances break and reform as the core issue shifts from policy to fundamental rights.”
  — HCR [40:13–41:54]
• Americans are standing on Constitutionalist, not radical, ground in their resistance—this makes the opposition both broad and powerful.

Weaponization & Hypocrisy

• Surveillance: Coordinated government efforts to obtain information from tech companies to target activists.

• Guns & Civil Liberties: Those once claiming “freedom” or opposing an “overreaching government” are now wielding state power repressively.

  “That overweening government is fine so long as it’s my government… [The right] never stood on principle, just power.”
  — Heather Cox Richardson [42:31]

Accountability & Hope

• Power of Juries: Zero-vote grand jury shutouts show Americans rejecting the regime’s prosecutions.
• Proper, persistent public pressure flips the narrative, influences policy, and protects rights (e.g., pushback against ICE, its funding, and lawfare efforts).
• “We just have to go back to the legislation that we had… and reiterate the principles that have always made this nation great in this moment at the local, state, and national level.”
  — HCR [56:35]

Memorable Exchange:

• On stopping authoritarianism:

  “If we had preserved our system, [these people] wouldn’t be in power to begin with”… “Now we need to see if we can claw it back, which is much harder than preserving it.”
  — Heather Cox Richardson & Alison Gill [52:26–53:54]

On the Role of Jury and Public:

“We cannot throw our jury summons in the trash right now. The people part of the justice system is extremely powerful. …Getting zero votes on your one-sided presentation with no defense in front of a grand jury is unprecedented.”
— Alison Gill [54:39]

The People's Lever:

• Engaged citizenship (voting, civic pressure, nonviolent protest), and especially jury participation, are more critical than ever.
• Every day, local-level community organizing and speaking up is working—public pressure is having tangible effects.

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Key Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Timecode | Summary | |---------|----------|---------| | Headlines & Hot Notes | [01:07–20:00] | Major news: ICE prosecutions, social surveillance, funding abuse, legal activism | | HCR Intro & Interview Start | [25:05] | Interview with Heather Cox Richardson begins | | DOJ Origins & Script Flip | [28:09–32:04] | Discussion of DOJ's real purpose vs. its subversion | | Lawfare and Propaganda | [32:19–41:54] | The use of civil rights era laws to suppress rights | | Coalition Politics | [40:13–41:54] | Historic analogies and coalition building | | Surveillance State | [41:55–45:00] | Hypocrisy around government power and “freedom” | | Jury Power & Public Activism | [54:39–56:35] | Role of juries, grand juries, and community action | | Rebuilding Guardrails | [52:26–63:31] | Restoring systems and principles post-authoritarianism | | Closing Reflections | [65:58–70:10] | Community, resistance, and cautious hope |

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Notable Quotes

• Heather Cox Richardson:
  "It is as if the Confederates took over the United States of America and created their own Department of Justice in 1870 rather than the one we actually got." [32:04]

• Alison Gill:
  “For the things that happen today, like I think we should be getting rid of DHS, I think we should be abolishing ICE. We can't do that this moment. … All we need is one chamber and then we can claw back that slush fund that funds ICE and CBP during a shutdown.” [63:31]

• Heather Cox Richardson:
  “We need to get those guardrails back… because, by definition, humans have bad impulses. And you need to construct a system that channels those impulses and erases the ability of those exhibiting them from exercising control over other people.” [50:07]

• Alison Gill:
  “We cannot throw our jury summons in the trash right now… The power of the jury, the federal grand jury and the Petit jury… is extremely powerful.” [54:39]

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

The episode is urgent yet hopeful, rife with historical context, pointed snark, and a call for resistance and vigilance. The hosts and guest urge listeners to understand how power is being abused in ways that upend the values and legal frameworks meant to protect democracy—and insist that organized, persistent engagement does have a real effect, especially through the formal levers still available: community organizing, pressuring representatives, and, critically, serving on juries.

“We have flipped that script. And people are now speaking out and saying, ‘Wait a minute, here.’ ... And that pressure, that everyday pressure, is having an effect.”
— Heather Cox Richardson [56:35]

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For Further Information

• Letters from an American (Heather Cox Richardson’s Substack): Highly recommended in the episode.
• The Breakdown (Midas Touch Network) and Beans Talk: Recent interviews and video podcasts mentioned for further context.

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[For Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In]

This episode offers a compelling, accessible breakdown of how the logic and instruments of American justice are being twisted for authoritarian ends—AND, importantly, how regular people are pushing back, often successfully. Laced with sharp critique, historical context, and a dash of irreverence, it’s both a warning and a pep talk for anyone concerned about democracy in 2026.

Transcript

[Narrator]

History is messy. It's weird, wild and anything but boring. Rainy Day Rabbit Holes is a history podcast about unhinged stories that make you stop and ask, wait, is this real life? From crazy disasters and tasty scandals to enlightening and surprising heartwarming tales, we explore the moments where people behave badly and sometimes beautifully. We've got naughty politicians, cultural chaos and a deep love for the Pacific Northwest, including Bigfoot. It's thoughtful, irreverent, occasionally serious, and always entertaining. Let's fall down the rabbit hole.

[Alison Gill]

MSW Media. Msw media.

[Unidentified Speaker]

Daily beans daily beans. Daily beans.

[Alison Gill]

Hello and welcome to the Daily beans for Monday, February 16, 2026. Today the feds got caught lying again about an assault on ICE officers and were forced to dismiss the charges. Homeland Security is demanding social media sites hand over data on anti ICE users. Ring Camera has cut their ties to Flock surveillance after political backlash. Russ Vogt using US Aid funds to pay for his security detail. The puppy killer side piece, Corey Lewandowski is demanding a government issued firearm. A judge ends the deportation case for the father of three Marines. Another judge rebukes the feds for denying counsel for detainees. And in a victory for Democrats, the Virginia Supreme Court rules the 10 to 1 redistricting map can move forward. I'm Alison Gill.

[Dana Goldberg]

And I'm Dana Goldberg.

[Alison Gill]

Hey. And I should add that it's not the map that they're approving. They're approving putting it on the ballot for the people to vote on in Virginia.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yes, that makes sense.

[Alison Gill]

Little bit of a correction there on the headlines. But also today on the beans, I'm going to drop my full interview with Heather Cox Richardson in the Bean.

[Dana Goldberg]

Nice. Nice.

[Alison Gill]

And yeah, that was a really important discussion on weaponization, authoritarianism and you know from amazing history professor. And you can see my latest episode of the breakdown on the Midas Touch Network with Katie Fang in your Daily Beans feed as well. We'll have the audio there and you can catch it all. Both of those interviews in [e-mail] so lots going on today.

[Unidentified Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dana Goldberg]

There's also a win for the good guys. A federal judge ruled Thursday that the Trump administration had been violating the rights of people detained by ICE in Minnesota, saying the agency had stashed them in an ill equipped, overcrowded facility without access to attorneys. U.S. district Judge Nancy Brassell said it appeared the Trump administration had surged law enforcement into the Twin Cities without accounting for, and I quote, the constitutional rights of its civil detainees held by ice. The judge ordered the administration to dramatically revamp conditions in the Bishop Henry Whipple Federal Building and provide routine and unmonitored phone access to detainees, including the chance to alert attorneys and family members at least one hour before being transferred out of state.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. And by the way, that unmonitored phone access is super important for attorney client.

[Dana Goldberg]

Absolutely.

[Alison Gill]

And you know, the fact that they have to, you know, specify that is kind of frightening. Also in court, an immigration judge terminated the deportation case against an undocumented father of three U.S. marines. His name is Narciso Barranco. He was detained by federal agents last year while landscaping in Southern California. And that paves the way for him to seek legal permanent residency in the US and these were some of the Marines that the Democratic lawmakers had stand up when Kristi Noem was testifying on the Hill. Yep. Kristi Noem actually turned around and said, sorry, we'll figure it out. Which was a little bit different from what Pam Bondi did when the Epstein survivors stood up. But I mean, when you have a, a puppy killer that's got a little more heart, even if she's faking it, you know, at least she turned around and acknowledged this. You know, the Marine sons of this immigrant picked up while doing, while working. Just so cruel and heartless and evil.

[Dana Goldberg]

It is, it is one more in this part, following mounting pressure. This is a big deal actually, too, in a questionable super bowl, the Amazon owned company, ring cameras, they have walked back its plan to integrate with ICE and Customs and Border Protection. They've been basically giving information to ICE and allowing them to search the footage of ring cameras. And when this ad came out about these puppies, how. Oh, they, they catch, you know, stray dogs. And one a day. They won a day. The stray dogs. Everyone was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And then all kinds of the backlash happened and they were like, okay, now we know what's going on with this company.

[Alison Gill]

Yes, political backlash works. Yeah, I still don't trust this, you know, Amazon or oh no Flock or ice. But like I said, at least they're publicly saying, yeah, there was enough backlash to make them go oops. And I love that they spent millions and millions of dollars on a cute puppy centric super bowl ad and got called out because of it. Yeah, just like showing your cards. And we're going to talk all about the Republican surveillance state on Beans Talk today, which you can watch at the MSW Media YouTube channel. All right, we have a lot to get to. Let's hit the hot notes. Hot notes. All right, first up, from cbs Federal Charges have been dropped against two men who were charged with assaulting ICE officers in Minneapolis last month, including one Venezuelan defendant who was shot in the legal by an officer. The Justice Department's motion cited newly discovered evidence that was materially inconsistent with the allegations against them. So, in other words, they lied. The filing entered Thursday by U.S. attorney in Minnesota Daniel Rosen moved to dismiss the charges against the men with prejudice, meaning the charges can't be reintroduced. On Friday, a judge granted that request. ICE Acting Director Todd Lyons said Friday that the two officers have been placed on administrative leave after a review of video evidence indicating they provide, quote, untruthful statements in their sworn testimony. Is everybody allergic to the word lie, Dana? Like the, you know, misstate.

[Dana Goldberg]

Just say they lied?

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, yeah, just untruthful statements like. Okay, anyway, quote, upon conclusion of the investigation, the officers may face termination of employment as well as potential criminal prosecution. These are the fall guys for everything that happened in Minnesota, by the way. Yeah, they'll throw these two agents under the bus. And they should. But they should also throw everyone else who broke the law under the bus. In January, the two men, Alfredo Alejandro Alhorna and Julio Cesar Sosacelles, were charged in a federal criminal complaint with forcibly assaulting, resisting, or impeding federal officers in performance of their duties. The charges came after Sosacelles was shot by an ICE officer, which drew nationwide attention amid the federal immigration surge in Minnesota. From early on, the government's account of the alleged assault was not consistent. Also lies. A day after the shooting, the Department of Homeland Security said Sosa Sellis fled the scene of a targeted traffic stop in Minneapolis in his vehicle, crashed into a parked car, and kept fleeing on foot when an ICE agent caught up to him. They say two men allegedly attacked the agent with a broom handle and a snow shovel, and Sosa Sellis allegedly broke free and started striking the officer. DHS said the officer then fired a defensive shot to defend his life. Sosa Sellis and the two other men ran into an apartment, but were later taken into custody. So that's all the DHS said there. But in a highly unusual motion to dismiss filed Thursday, the U.S. attorney for the District of Minnesota, Dan Rosen, said newly discovered evidence was materially inconsistent with the allegations made against.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, shocking.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. Al Horna and Sosa Selles. In a criminal complaint at a hearing last month, US District Judge Paul A. Magnuson dismissed the case with prejudice, meaning the charges cannot be resubmitted. So yet another failed prosecution based on DHS lies. And again, that wasn't a Federal grand jury indictment. That was a return on criminal charging information. Does that, does that make sense where. Where DHS brings charges and then they've got a certain amount of time to obtain a federal criminal indictment? And I guess when they were reviewing the body cam footage to take to.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

The grand jury, they're like, oh, well, that's not at all what they said happened. Jesus.

[Dana Goldberg]

All right, this one is from the Times. Allison. The Department of Homeland Security is expand its efforts to identify Americans who oppose Immigration and Customs Enforcement by sending tech companies legal requests for the names, email addresses, telephone numbers, and other identifying data behind social media accounts that track or criticize the agency. Oh, boy. That means I'm probably on a list.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah.

[Dana Goldberg]

In recent months, Google, Reddit, Discord, and Meta, which owns Facebook and Instagram, have received hundreds of administrative subpoenas from the Department of Homeland Security, According to four government officials and tech employees privy to the requests, they spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. Google, Meta, and Reddit complied with some of the requests, the government officials said. In the subpoenas, the department asked the companies for identifying details of accounts that do not have a real person's name attached and that have criticized ICE or pointed to the locations of ICE agents. Okay, maybe I'm not on a list. The New York Times saw. I probably am. The New York Times saw two subpoenas that were sent to Meta over the the last six months. The Department of Homeland Security also sought more information on the Facebook and Instagram accounts dedicated to tracking ICE activity in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, outside Philadelphia. The accounts, called Montco Community Watch, began posting in Spanish and English about ice sightings in June, and over the next six months solicited tips from their roughly 10,000 followers to alert people to the locations of agents on specific streets or in front of local landmarks.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, this is all part of their we're domestic terrorists, right? Situation.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Right.

[Alison Gill]

Like, because we meet in groups and educate each other on our rights and.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

How not to impede ICE so that.

[Alison Gill]

We can observe legally, because we do that and meet and. And organize. We are now a terrorist group, and they want to use that just like they wanted to go after the George Floyd peaceful protesters. So, but now they've got all these levers of power and they control most of these social media companies and the corporate news media as well. So that's kind of the point of why they are scooping up all of these companies. Next up from Ms. Now, Corey Lewandowski, a longtime controversial advisor to Trump, raised alarm inside the Department of Homeland Security last year when he sought approval to carry a federally issued firearm while working for the agency. Four current and government officials familiar with the matter told Ms. Now. Lewandowski's pursuit of a weapon authorization became so contentious that a veteran attorney for ICE was escorted from the building after refusing to sign off on his request and clashing with leadership. These people who are telling all this to Ms. Now were granted anonymity out of fear of retribution. Kenneth Padilla, who was then working for ICE's Office of the Principal Legal Advisor, was asked whether Lewandowski could be issued a gun. Padilla said there's no legal basis for doing so and that it was not legally feasible for Lewandowski to be issued a gun as he is not law enforcement. According to two of the people. Jesus Padilla was. Yeah. And that guy was then put on administrative leave. Padilla. And subsequently reassigned to FEMA last year. And that's according to people familiar. Padilla's LinkedIn profile shows that he moved to FEMA in November. So you don't give Corey Lewandowski a gun, you know, I guess for the safety of his side pieces. Puppies.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

You can get fired, reassigned, or put in a position where you don't have the authority to refuse issuing people guns. Got it.

[Dana Goldberg]

They're a mess, both of them. I hope this. Whatever. I can't. I can't. They're such hypocrites. In a related story from Reuters, the White House budget office is using millions of dollars from the former U.S. foreign Aid Agency to pay for the security detail of Russell Vaught. That's the, you know, the Heritage foundation fella. Project 2025. Yeah. President Donald Trump's budget chief is what they're calling him. Okay. And an architect of the government overhaul that has cut thousands of federal jobs, according to three people seen by Reuters. Otherwise known as Project 2025. The White House Office of Management and Budget, which Vought Leads, is allocating $15 million of what remains of USAID operating expenses to cover the cost of his protection by the U.S. marshals Service through the end of 2026. This is such bullshit. A person familiar with the matter said that Vought security detail comprises more than one dozen U.S. marshals, which Reuters could not independently confirm. OMB did not make Vought available for interview. One of the documents reviewed by Reuters said OMB signed an agreement with USA last September 11th to cover the costs associated with then acting USAID Administrator Vought security detail through November. That amount, $1.6 million, came from what is left of USAID's operating expenses. This is what the government showed. Omb budgeted another 13.5 million in USAID funds to underwrite the costs of Vought Security Detail through the end of the year as they relate to his current role as senior advisor to usaid. The Marshal Service typically protects federal courthouses, judges and court personnel. Asked about Vought, the Marshal Service said it, and I quote, could offer protection to members of the executive branch who face threats or at the direction of the Attorney General.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, she's in charge of the U.S. marshal Service. So while it's just the judiciary who generally gets Marshal Service protection, vote is spending 15 million of our dollars that was meant to feed hungry children and get vaccines to Africa and protect children and women in South Sudan to fund his 15 member security entourage. Just disgusting. Next, from CBS, Trump's longtime confidant Tom Barrick. We've talked about this guy so much, he's now serving as a U Ambassador to Turkey and special envoy to Syria. Was in regular close contact with Jeffrey Epstein for Years after Epstein's 2008 conviction for soliciting a minor. That's according to a CBS News analysis of over 100 text messages and email exchanges from the newly released Justice Department documents. The correspondence places Barrick, a globe trotting billionaire, among a circle of wealthy and influential figures who maintained social contact with Epstein even as his criminal history became widely known. Their relationship continued even after Barrick became a prolific fundraiser for Trump's 2016 campaign. And when they say prolific fundraiser. He was the finance chair for the RNC and later led his inaugural committee and became a frequent presence in the White House. At times, Epstein appeared to regard Barrick as a potential conduit for passing information to Trump, though available records show the communication going only in one direction. There's no indication Epstein's communications were passed to Trump or that Trump communicated with Epstein through Barrick, but he's all over these documents. Barrick, who's 78, is the founder and former chairman of a publicly traded real estate investment trust that has vast holdings in the hotel and casino sectors and in 2008 bought Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch. He rose to prominence in the political world as a leading fundraiser for Donald Trump's 2016 campaign. After the election, Barrack became a close advisor to Trump, especially on matters of the Middle East. He got indicted for that, by the way. He was one of several in Trump's inner circle to face scrutiny from Robert Mueller for his foreign entanglements, eventually facing charges on allegations he served as a backchannel for the UAE while working inside the White House. A jury acquitted him, though, in 2022, and Barrick returned to Trump's orbit for his second term, accepting that pivotal diplomatic post in Turkey. So this Tom Barrack stuff, it just every thing connects back to Putin, mbs, the uae, Jared Kushner, all of Elon Musk, all of these dudes, right? Leon Black. You know, I can't help but think, and I thought this six years ago and people thought I was nuts, that Epstein was a like a factory for creating kompromat on rich people for the Kremlin. But you know, what the hell do I know?

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah, I think you know a lot. This one's from Democracy Docket. We do have some good news. This is a big win for Virginia Democrats. The efforts there to counter President Trump's GOP gerrymandering in other states. This Virginia Supreme Court said the state can hold its special election as this is the part its special election on Democrats own redistrict. So it's not approving the maps, it's approving the special election. The referendum vote is scheduled to take place on April 21st. Democrats will still have to defend that plan in court, but the order means that the ongoing legal case will not prevent a redistricting referendum from going forward. In practice, that means voters will get to decide on a proposed 10 to 1 map that could deliver four more Democratic seats in Congress. Though the Supreme Court's order is a victory for Democrats, some uncertainty remains about the future of redistricting. Because a decision in the redistricting case will come after the referendum takes place, the Supreme Court could theoretically void the results of that vote if it rules against Democrats. So in practice, a decision overruling voters would be unlikely. In January, Virginia lawmakers passed a constitutional amendment that, if approved by voters, would allow them to redraw the state's congressional map. Republicans sued and a state judge blocked the redistricting measure, concluding that lawmakers had not properly followed procedural rules when they took an initial vote on their plan. Democrats quickly appealed to the state Court of Appeals, arguing the decision was legally flawed, unprecedented, and the product of court shopping designed to block Virginians from voting on their own constitution. The Court of Appeals then hurried the case to the Virginia Supreme Court, which was an unusual move intended to ensure a quicker decision on a case presenting questions of such imperative public importance. So Democrats are actually doing a really good job with this of getting it moved forward. I'm impressed.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, I mean, this is what we. This is what we do. If the Republicans and the oligarchs on the Supreme Court want to allow political gerrymandering, then we're going to do it at every turn. And for all the Republicans who are like half of Virginians vote Republican, well, let's see how that referendum comes out then. Let's see how it comes out. Because they tried to do the same thing in California when we passed Prop 50. Right. They were like, oh, but there's so many Republicans in California. Are there? Because that passed 65 to 35. So there's more of us. Welcome to political gerrymandering land because we're going to be here for a minute. Get comfy, you dickheads.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

All right, we've got some good news coming up.

[Alison Gill]

But first, I have this 45 minute interview with Heather Cox Richardson. It goes by in the blink of an eye because she's just so. She's so easy to listen to.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, yeah, she's fabulous.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Yeah. So if you've already caught this interview.

[Alison Gill]

Feel free to fast forward to the good news. If not, stick around and check it out. Unless you want to hear it again. I want to hear it again. So here it is, everybody.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Stick around.

[Alison Gill]

We'll be right back after these messages.

[Dana Goldberg]

We'll be right back.

[Alison Gill]

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[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

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[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

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[Alison Gill]

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[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

All right, it looks like we're live. Hi everybody.

[Alison Gill]

Welcome.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

On this Saturday morning, it's Coffee Talk with Allison Gill and my good friend Heather Cox Richardson, who writes Letters from an American here on Substack. If you don't subscribe, I highly recommend that you do because the perspectives are just so. I have to say you have this really incredible way of doing a 50,000 foot view, but also helping us understand the granular details while also giving us something that we can do. And we'll talk about that a little bit when it comes to the Department of Justice because I think some of us feel a little less hands on, a little, you know, more like hopeless when it comes to what we can do about fixing the Department of Justice here and what they're doing to the American people and the other branches of government. But also there's, there's a, a sense of hope that comes out through, through.

[Alison Gill]

Letters from an American.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

So I recommend everybody, if you're not already subscribed to subscribe. I wanted to talk to you today about this talking about the 50,000 foot view. And we'll get into the granular details in a minute. But it seems to me as though the Department of Justice, the Trump administration, whether it's Department of Homeland Security or Kash Patel at the FBI refusing to help investigate or hand over investigation materials to Minnesota and the murders of Alex Preddy and Renee Good, whatever is happening in this administration, and especially with Hermeet Dhillon over at the Civil Rights Division, which I have into calling the Civil Rights Division, because what they have done is they have flipped pretty much everything to make the government the victim in what's going on and to say that us, the peaceful protesters, the people who are worried about our neighbors, the people who are worried about journalists being arrested, the people who are worried about members of Congress being trying to be criminally indicted are the agitators, the paid agitators. So this script flipped is script. Script flip is what I wanted to talk to you about today. This sort of Darvo, this sort of the government is the victim here. And when we were talking offline, you said, yeah, no more, especially in this case that was tried, that they tried to bring against Mark Kelly. And we don't know if, if they tried all six, but at least Mark Kelly to indict for doing nothing more than making a video expressing their First Amendment rights to tell active duty service members not to follow illegal orders. So I wanted to know your thoughts on this giant script flip we're seeing.

[Unidentified Speaker]

Well, first of all, it's lovely to be here. Happy Saturday, which always seems to me like should be a day off and it never is. Right.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

It's a kind of a catch all day, isn't it?

[Unidentified Speaker]

Exactly. So I think there's a lot of different things going on. And what you just highlighted is something I think is really important, is the administration and the Department of Justice trying to criminalize the behavior of lawmakers, people who sit in Congress. And there were six of them, Alyssa Slotkin and Mark Kelly in the Senate. And I'm not going to get them all off the top of my head in the House. Jason Crow from Colorado, I know, is one. They are all people who have defended the US in the military or in the intelligence community. And what they did in a video was simply to reiterate the law, what the law is. And there was an attempt to criminalize that. And that was a really important moment for the rise of authoritarianism in that you had the executive branch trying to criminalize the behavior of members of the legislative branch, which is the branch that represents the People, that was a huge deal. And of course, the grand jury saw through that. And I believe they didn't get a single vote in trying to indict those people. But it's really important because one of the things that I think it feeds into that script flip that you just talked about, but what is really, I think, at stake in all these different things, dhs, attacking not just undocumented immigrants and legal immigrants, but also U.S. citizens and so on, is who is the U.S. government? There's a larger picture here is who is the US Government? So the Department of Justice, when it's created in 1870, is created by Congress to make sure that black Americans in the American south are protected from discriminatory legislation and from attacks by their white neighbors. And this is going to be 1870, 1871, right there. And I can go into that history, but right there, when black Americans, black American men start to vote and be part of the body politic, there is, of course, there are gangs all over the south, usually represented by the Ku Klux Klan, who try and kill them, basically, or stop them from voting, them and their white allies. And the Department of Justice is set up to say that the US Government stands for the Constitution, and it stands for the rule of law, in which everybody is treated equally before the law. And what you're seeing, I think, in this moment, is a redefinition of the United States government based on the great replacement theory that people like Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon have championed. So the idea that the United States and what they would call Western countries, primarily places like France, have a white culture that is under siege by people of color and that is characterized by migrants. But in the United States, of course, they're also discriminating against black Americans, brown Americans who are already here, you know, indigenous Americans, everybody whom they don't define as white, because white is a really malleable category, and women, of course, as well. And what they're trying to do is say that only white people, basically, you know, as I'm saying this, basically what they're saying is, the Confederacy won. We want to have a government that defends the ideology of the Confederate States of America. So anybody who is challenging that, including those people who are using the Constitution of the United States, are the people that should be prosecuted by the government itself and by the Department of Justice. It is entirely a flipped script. But actually, until I was sort of outlining this and seeing it in my head, it is as if the Confederates took over the United States of America and created their own Department of justice in 1870 rather than the one we actually got.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

And we're seeing, you know, you talk about the basis for all of this. The creation of the Department of Justice was to protect black. The black people, black Americans. And, you know, that all came out from. We can start.

[Alison Gill]

You know, I remember Jelani Cobb and.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

I talk about this all the time, going to the Fugitive Slave act, leading up to people who weren't even abolitionists getting really angry at the government coming in and taking their neighbors away, which is. We're seeing echoes of that now. But what this, you know, using going like the opposite of what it was created for, to protect white people at the Civil Rights Division. Or when we see, for example, the Department of Justice charging Don Lemonade under the Ku Klux KLAN act and 241 and how Harmeet Dhillon, who's in charge of the Civil Rights Division right now at the Department of Justice, wants to flip the script on that. Anna Bauer writes for Lawfare. While unconventional, the use of Section 241 in the Don Lemon case may reflect both prosecutorial strategy, but also Harmony Dillon's personal interest in this law. Even before the indictment was filed, Dhillon publicly highlighted Section 241's potential as a sentencing enhancement in the city's church case, observing that the Biden justice department had used 241 alongside the FACE act to secure longer sentences in abortion related cases. So the FACE act, the other statute that's charged here in the city's church, is originally to keep people from obstructing me from going into an abortion clinic. But then there's also a religious facilities, places of worship tag on there. So she wants to take something from the Ku Klux Klan act, created to protect black people and protect their rights, because 241 is conspiracy against rights, and it was to protect black people from having their rights trampled upon after, you know, Reconstruction Amendments, I believe. But then she wants to take 241 and add it to the Face act and say, okay, you're not, you know where Biden would use this to prevent people from blocking people from going into abortion clinics. I'm going to use it to say that Don Lemon somehow impeded people from worshiping in a church. And that just blows my mind how many, you know, things used to protect black people are now used to go after black people. We saw, we saw this with the George Floyd protests. I remember when we wanted to get the Trump investigation underway for the insurrection, the insurrectionist Republicans in the Senate blocked the appointment of U.S. attorneys to the D.C. u.S. Attorney's office, saying, we're not going to approve your D.C. u.S attorneys or U.S. attorney until you start treating George Floyd protesters the way you're treating January 6th protesters. So, again, flipping that script and saying it's the people who were at the Capitol on January 6th that are the good guys and the people who peacefully protested George Floyd are the agitators. It's that whole propaganda switch. How have we seen that play out.

[Alison Gill]

In history as well?

[Unidentified Speaker]

Well, so this is really interesting, though, because I do think that's exactly what you're seeing. You're seeing the attempt to use laws that were designed to protect everybody's equal rights. You know, the. The right to be treated equally before the law, which is important. Whether, you know, this is, you know, why we protect the right of the KKK to speak, for example, in Illinois, the idea that we have rights that apply to everybody, the idea of using those as weapons to put into place a certain kind of ideology. And it's an ideology that excludes the vast majority of Americans from participation in the body politic. It works to get rid of democracy and replace it with authoritarianism, with this very small group of people, often not just white nationalists, but Christian nationalists, being able to impose their will on the rest of us. But what I think is really interesting about this is that the people aren't buying it. You talk about George Floyd, for sure, and the networks that were put in place during the 2020 protests to protect George Floyd are very much the base of what you're seeing in Minneapolis now, to protect the people that ICE and Border Patrol are coming after. But the fact that the Department of Justice has not been able to get indictments in so many of these cases says that people get it and they get the misuse of these things to try and cement in power a version of American society that we don't like. And when you think about how they are trying to use the Department of Justice or how they are trying to use the laws in order to cement their own power, I think it's important that the American people are rejecting that. And crucially, they're rejecting it not on what I would call radical terms at all, but rather on extraordinarily conservative terms. That is what the people who are trying to push back against ICE and Border Patrol and against the overreach of the government and so on are standing on is the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Now, it's a little hard to think of anybody who is literally carrying A Constitution through the streets and saying, this is us. We want the rights that are in this as being wild radicals. And what's interesting to me about that going forward is that when you have a movement that is based on basically the rule of law, the Constitution, that sweeps in a whole lot of people who might have been partisan over issues like finance or infrastructure or immigration or education, things that are policy issues, but we're beyond policy issues now, and we're into the fundamental nature of the United States of America and the government under which we live. And when that happens, you start to see a lot of people who say, okay, I don't agree with you about X, but I do agree with you about this. And when you get that kind of an organization, the moments that jump to mind, primarily for me, ironically, are the 1850s, when that's exactly how the Republican Party organized and became a driving force through the rest of the 19th century, or the 1930s, when that's what the Democratic Party organized around. Or let me be really radical here about the American Revolution, which was described often as a conservative revolution, because what the revolutionaries in the United States wanted was the rights and guarantees that Englishmen had from the time of the Magna Carta in 1215. So standing on that turf in this moment, when you have a bunch of, I'm sorry, but extraordinarily incompetent people trying to destroy the rights of the vast majority of us, strikes me as being not only a winning thing in this moment, but also a really important rededication to our foundational principles that can carry us into the 21st century as we have to deal with things like AI and climate change and all the crises that we have not adequately incorporated into the way we approach the future.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Yeah, it's kind of odd to find yourself, you know, say, using talking points of something maybe 10 years ago you never thought that you would be using before Bill Kristol.

[Unidentified Speaker]

Like, how did. How did I end up on the same team as Bill Kristol? And yet, you know, this is one of the things. And I know we gotta get. But I know we gotta get back to the issue at hand. But. But this fascinates me because this is exactly what happened after the passage of the Kansas Nebraska act in 1854, when all of a sudden you've got all these people in the same room who hate each other. They hate each other, but they know they hate those other people more. And they basically say, okay, we can sort all this out later, so long as we get rid of those people. But in the process of getting rid of those people. And in that case, that's the elite Southern slavers. The issues changed, the things that mattered changed. And so all of those alliances that going into the room seemed like they were going to, you know, you were going to work together for a little bit and you were going to go back to where you were on the other side completely broke down. And when you think about how we are going to have to approach, for example, privacy, surveillance, AI cryptocurrency, the climate, migration, disease, all the things where we really don't have lines yet, I don't know what our alliances are going to look like on the other side of things, because I don't know how to think about them yet. And so this moment is so extraordinarily malleable in terms of policies. It seems like a really important moment to go back to the foundational principles of a government that relies on the consent of the government and guarantees that everybody has equal access to resources and has the right to be treated equally before the law.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dana Goldberg]

And that's it.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

That's exactly it. You know, for me to be like, hey, this surveillance state, this nanny state, those are words that I wouldn't have used 10 years ago because we didn't have a, you know, as far as I was concerned, a nanny state. But it seems, again, the scripts have flipped on something like that. Also, I don't see them using the word freedom that much anymore. They used to have freedom fests and freedom breakfasts and freedom fries and freedom this. Now it's. It's more America this, America first. It's more nationalist. I think. I think they understand that they might need to start backing away from the word freedom because it doesn't really apply to them anymore.

[Unidentified Speaker]

But that's a really interesting point because they were very much against what they called a nanny state or an overreaching government or so on when they thought it was working for a multicultural democracy that they did not like. Like, now that they are in power and they're able to use the power of that government to achieve what they initially thought they wanted, all of a sudden they're for it. The number of people who are saying it's okay now that the US Government is using as a reason for having killed Alex Preddy, that he was carrying a gun with a permit, that has infuriated gun owners. But there's a lot of magas who are saying, yeah, right, you shouldn't have done that. You shouldn't have shown up with a gun. Can you imagine 10 years ago. And that is an important thing to recognize right now, that those people who claim to be standing on principle were in fact just saying we want to have power. And a lot of us who really do care about the principles, regardless of where your background is, need to be standing up for that. I mean, again, the fact that the gun owners of Minnesota stepped up and said, hey, hey, hey, come on here, just a second. We believe that he had the right to carry that gun with a permit in that situation, so stop talking about how that's a good reason to shoot somebody. That's a recognition, I think in this sense, that an overweening government is fine so long as it's. My government is not a principled stand and that it never was. That those people insisting that masks were bad, for example, who are perfectly fine with masks now, now we're simply saying we want to be the ones in power. And that's an important thing to recognize, that in a democracy, we don't want those people in power.

[Dana Goldberg]

Right.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

And it's the consistency of the principled stand that you take that makes all the difference. For forever, we've been saying, yes, Second Amendment, but also common sense gun legislation, let's have a registry, let's do insurance, let's do this, let's do that. And now we've gone from the Republicans saying, Obama's coming from your guns to if you bring a gun into the D.C. district, I don't care who you are, I'm going to arrest you. She had to walk that back because I think the NRA gave her a call, even though they're kind of in.

[Alison Gill]

The toilet right now.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

The whole thing is just sort of turned on its head. And now we have them with the levers of power where they can try to do things more legitimately because they have those levers of power specifically with the Department of Justice.

[Alison Gill]

And they.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

But that still hasn't stopped them from doing sneaky, clandestine things, like we learned this week after Pam Bondi's horrific performance in front of the House Judiciary Committee. I mean, she just had a mentee.

[Alison Gill]

Be there for a minute.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Totally unsuited to be an attorney general with her behavior. But that's a feature, not a bug for this administration. But they were clandestinely spying on lawmakers who were trying to provide oversight for the Epstein files, first of all, not only tracking their search terms, but then printing them up and calling it Pramila Jayapal's search terms for the Epstein files. Like just they should. Might as well have a folder that says Here's a Crimes we committed. They just don't seem to have much fear about what gets seen or what they're doing or what people know that they're doing. But that sort of clandestine. And this is something that they have been harping against. The Republican Party has been harping against. You spied on Trump's campaign when you did a FISA for Carter Page. You spied on us when Jack Smith got toll records for January 6th prosecution. We want to be able to sue for a million dollars each because Jack Smith lawfully got our phone records in violation of our speech or debate clause. And then they're clandestinely spying, violating this speech or debate clause of people who are just trying to protect Epstein victims. It blows my mind.

[Unidentified Speaker]

Yeah, just a correction there. It's a half a million that they want to sue for. So let me ask you this. I agree. And I actually want to. I'm thinking a lot about that today, which I may actually write about tonight. First of all, when I heard Bondi, what I heard was somebody was trying not to perjure herself. That is, if you ask me about apples and I say watermelons are the worst things ever, you don't. I'm always one step ahead of you. That is she. Because there was nothing she could say about the Epstein files that wouldn't make her commit perjury. And she got furious when Ted Lieu, the representative from California, said, I believe you just committed perjury. It's on videotape. That's when she really exploded. So what do you think?

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

That's what.

[Unidentified Speaker]

You know, that I thought was at least part of why. I mean, she's obviously playing to Trump and all that, but I thought she was just trying to make sure she didn't get into more trouble than she's already in. It's kind of a trope in US History that the attorney general who commits the crimes is the first one under bust. Yeah. Is that what she was up to?

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Maybe. I also think. I think I'm with you in that she was doing everything she could to avoid perjury because she has to either get a pardon or this regime has to somehow stay in power illegally in order for her not to get into a lot of legal trouble in the next administration. Do you know what I mean?

[Unidentified Speaker]

Yeah, that's what I thought. And it's a fine line. But the thing that has interested me about everything that we're talking about and everything that we're seeing and not just with the Department of Justice and not just with dhs. But the Epstein files and the. I'm sorry, it's sticking in my head, too, that Robert Kennedy Jr. Apparently said that he was not concerned about germs because he had snorted coke off a toilet seat, which is not one. A comment that one is accustomed to hearing from a cabinet officer. And one of the things about our system of government, that is the way it was constructed by the framers, was that they never denied that human beings had really dark impulses, but what they tried to do was construct a system that enabled those impulses to be controlled and to make sure that those impulses were not the ones that were foremost in the operation of the government. And as I'm watching these stories around me, and the reason that I am is because today is February 14th, which happens to be the day that William Tecumseh Sherman died. I know everybody knows that, that. And I wanted to write something about that. And that got me thinking about the fact that in the late 19th century, when people were trying to take down the robber barons, there is this really salacious book written that suggests that Sherman and his brother John Sherman, who's a senator, have a secret sex dungeon and do all kinds of, you know, again, which. Which is a fantasy. They were actually not doing that in the late 19th century, but today we actually sort of have that.

[Alison Gill]

Right.

[Unidentified Speaker]

It's kind of we're doing that. And that struck me that one of the things that we have done over the last 40 years is we have taken away the guardrails that the framers put up to make sure that those impulses did not become the ones that ruled our country. And so when I think about this moment and the Department of Justice and DHS and the extraordinary, just not just cruelty, but the extraordinary use of American tax dollars for things like the multimillion dollar planes and the ordering people around and treating people badly and the sexual assault and all the different things that now appear to be associated with our government. I think about in this moment that the larger picture is if we are going to survive as a democratic republic, we need to find a way as people to reinstate those guardrails, really from the bottom up. Because if you think of the corruption in a state like Florida, where Mar A Lago and Pam Bondi and Matt Gaetz and Jeffrey Epstein all come from, or Ohio or Mississippi, or, you know, you look at the pipeline for this kind of ultimate corruption, we need to get those guardrails back. Not because. Although, in this moment, I would say they are. Republicans are particularly bad or Democrats are particularly bad. But because by definition, humans have bad impulses. And you need to construct a system that, that channels those impulses and erases the ability of those exhibiting them from exercising control over other people. And that's, if you will, the 50,000 foot view of Carmeet Dhillon and Kristi Noem and Corey Lewandowski and Stephen Miller and Stephen Bannon and Donald Trump and Russell vote and so on, that they should never have been in power to begin with. And if we had preserved our system, they wouldn't be.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Yeah. And now we need to see if we can claw it back, which is much harder than preserving it. I mean, every time I think we were just a couple million votes away from, from preserving the system instead of having to take now probably a generation, maybe two, to rebuild it, I just, I fall apart inside a little bit. But I wanted to end on a, a higher note, a better note, because before we hit record, you and I were talking about what is the accountability, what is the people's lever here with the, specifically with the Department of Justice. And before I give you my answer and ask you for your answer, I just wanted to give you a reason why I say a million dollars instead of $500,000 on that toll records thing. There's, it's a $500,000 from the DOJ for if subpoenas their phone bills, but there's an additional $500,000 provision if they seek a lawful node disclosure order from a federal judge. Did not know that, as Jamie Raskin said in a statement. Which is why I say a million. He said, that's a cool 1 million per senator. And so it's always just sort of stuck in my head there. It's a second additional provision, but you're right, the main provision is $500,000.

[Unidentified Speaker]

But don't you love that they wrote that for themselves? I mean, talk about like, I mean, aside from screwing over the American people, they quite literally said to the representatives, hey, you're out of luck, you know.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

And Lindsey Graham was willing to shut down the government if he couldn't get a funding bill amendment to put that $500,000 provision back after the House voted to get rid of it. Just mind boggling.

[Unidentified Speaker]

And do you know there's another conversation we should have about what it means to have bought into this system and why people might have bought into this system. Because I think looking back from what we are increasingly learning about the Epstein files and the nature of a system in which everybody has compromising material on each other, you know, you can sort of tell the representatives who feel as if they are able to speak out and those who feel that they are not.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Yeah, and billionaires have a lot of money to buy opinions, as we know. But my little hopeful nugget here, and I think I talked to Katie Fang about this recently, is particularly with the Department of Justice, these indictments that we keep seeing, the Don Lemon stuff, the, you know, the Jim Comey, Letitia James, Lisa Cook, Adam Schiff, I mean, you name it, the list goes on and on. And for the lies, you know, the DOJ using doctored images of black journalists arrested along, you know, at the city's church to make it look worse than it is, just beyond the pale. But the power of the jury, the federal grand jury and the Pettit jury. So what can we do? We cannot throw our jury summons in the trash right now. I think that the power, I think we're really starting to understand the people part of the justice system, the citizen part of the justice system is extremely powerful. And to get zero votes on those six members of Congress, Steve Vladeck was like, I've never seen that before. Now we don't keep track of all grand jury, federal grand jury votes, but sometimes we get news on them. He's like, I've never seen a shutout to, to not get a majority. Okay, that's rare enough six times out of 70,000 cases in the District of Columbia over the past 10 years. But to get zero votes on your one sided presentation with no defense in a grand jury room is completely unprecedented. So I'm curious as to what, in addition to the grand jury, what you think about the juries, the federal juries, Pettit juries, what you think about the people's lever here for accountability for Pam Bondi as well?

[Unidentified Speaker]

Well, you know, I think I share other people's frustrations that our leaders are openly lying to us, they are openly hurting us. And people are incredibly frustrated because it feels like you should see them in handcuffs. And this is not sort of a vague. Well, I don't really like what this person is doing. This is literally taking things like the fourth Amendment and writing a secret memo that says, nevermind, we're just going to throw that out the window. And so part of you just was like, let's fix it now. But the whole point of the way the system was set up is that it's supposed to take time to change things. And Americans elected this administration. Now, it didn't do it by the landslide at all that they keep insisting gave them a mandate. More People voted for somebody other than Donald Trump than voted for him. And they also, I think, voted for something different than he has delivered. That is, from the beginning, beginning of the second campaign, he promised opposite things to opposite groups of people. So by definition, people were going to be unhappy. You can't both have high tariffs and no inflation. You can't both remove all brown people from the United States and only remove the criminals. So from the beginning, he's been doing things that people did not expect him to do. And you can see this in his absolutely cratering approval ratings for issues, as well as for his personal handling, handling of the White House. That being said, it feels frustrating not to be able to just flip a switch and say, make this stop. But what we are seeing, not only with the juries, but with the American people speaking up, not only in the streets, although that's incredibly important, but also by making it clear to their elected officers, not only at the national level, but also at the state and local levels, saying, this is not what we want. And people see people in the streets for sure, but I don't think they understand fully how effective this has been. So, for example, it was the American people speaking up against ICE that made the senators, who have the power of the filibuster, the Democratic senators, made them able to say, no, we're not going to agree to fund DHS again until you have some ICE reforms. That was us that we did that. But similarly, the budget that Trump put forward in 2026, basically the appropriations committees threw out, and the Democrats were not able to restore funding to the levels of 2025, but they were able essentially to get rid of Trump's budget and fund a lot of things that he and the Department of Government Efficiency had tried to cut. And you see these sorts of legislative pushbacks all over the place. And the reason for that is not simply that people in Congress want to keep their jobs, but there is also the very real feature of our system that if you want to get elected in the first place, you need to have a constituency whom you represent. And one of the things that the radical right always did well, especially once it was able to use people like Rush Limbaugh to rally people and get them to complain, is they managed to convince their elected officials that they were the true American voice. If you have 1,000 people calling from the radical right and three people calling from those who are standing on the Constitution, I can tell you which one wins out. We have flipped that script. And people are now speaking out and saying, wait a minute, Here. Why has there not been an investigation of the Good and Preddy killings in Minneapolis? Well, now. Now we're getting those. I have my doubts about how legitimate they're going to be, but at least they're stepping up to the plate. Similarly, you're seeing Tom Homan claiming that the surge into Minneapolis is going to recede. Mind you, that will still leave ICE and Border Patrol agents in Minneapolis. But that pressure, that everyday pressure, is having an effect. But I would go a step further and say that the more people get involved in their communities and not necessarily doing something, something dramatic like being in the streets, but simply practicing the sort of neighborliness and the sort of community that we are seeing across the country, but is exhibited so fully in Minneapolis, they are reinforcing the idea of a country based on the idea that we're equal, that we help each other out, that our government should reflect that, because the government simply is all of us together. And doing that and including more and more people in that is how you ultimately change the larger shape of state. So not simply in the next election saying we want an Independent or a Democrat in what was a radical right seat, but simply saying we want to change it all. And one of the pieces that I think that Zoran Mamdani has brought to the political conversation, for me anyway, is his emphasis on the fact that a lot of what we want as American citizens is already on the books. It's just that we are not enforcing it. So some of the laws that the people like Dylan are using against the American polity now were designed to be used for us, and we can reclaim that. It's not a question of saying we gotta start from the ground and build it up. We simply have to go back to the legislation that we had in the 1970s, for example, before you got the rise of Reagan and the gutting of all that. And certainly we will need to act and subtract and rebuild going forward, but simply reiterating the principles that have always made this nation great in this moment at the local level and state and national level, and putting increasing pressure on, that certainly has the potential and has in the past worked to create a more just, fair and equal society for everybody. And I feel like that's happening everywhere. Somebody carried a constitution through the streets of Minneapolis yesterday, but people don't always feel that it's working because it's not fixing things today, which is what we would all like to see. Instead, it is turning around this extraordinary large ship of state. And that is happening. We just have to make sure. That that state doesn't get torpedoed before we are able once again to take the wheel of it.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Yeah, agreed. And for the things that happen today, like I think we should be getting rid of dhs, I think we should be abolishing ice. We can't do that this moment. I saw somebody make a comment that the Dems have failed because ICE and Customs and Border Protection are still fully funded during this DHS shutdown. And that is true, but it's not because of a Democrat failure. That is because of the big beautiful bill which supplements to the tune of $63 billion Customs and Border Protection and ICE $70 billion in the event of a shutdown. Now they're spending most of that on concentration camp warehouses, but we can have a more detailed discussion about that at another time. But not a single Democrat voted for the big beautiful bill. And Senator Sanders put in an amendment to defund the, that supplemental stuff last week when we were trying to sever DHS from the rest of the funding bill. And every single Democrat plus two Republicans voted for the Sanders amendment, but it still failed because we don't have 60 votes in the Senate. So while I would love to abolish ICE right now, while I would love to have Pam Bondi put in handcuffs right now, the best that we can do because we are not in the majority, because that's how we voted in this country country in the House and in the Senate is to put restrictions on ICE until we can get all we need is one chamber and then we can claw back that slush fund that funds ICE and CBP during a shutdown. Just like the Republicans did the same thing to claw back our $80 billion funding for the IRS to go after wealthy tax cheats. Do you remember that when they successfully pulled that money back for the billionaire class. But anyway, yes, I, I, I totally understand where you're coming from and I think that we do have a lot of power. We've, we, we've seen Tom Homan like you said, I mean it was a lie the first time he said he was going to draw down and be a kinder and gentler ICE and all that stuff. But to, to even have to lie to the public and legalize to the, to the press to make it look like you're listening to the people means that the people are speaking very, very loudly. I just wish Pam Bondi had heard it. I don't understand why she didn't just turn around to those survivors and say, I see you, I'm going to get your information, and I'll make sure somebody at the Justice Department contacts you. And I'm sorry for what you've gone through. Like, she didn't even fake it.

[Unidentified Speaker]

But, you know, isn't that part of the brittleness of this kind of rising authoritarianism? She couldn't, because, of course, she was playing to Trump. I mean, she was clearly playing to an audience of one. You know, he has. The Wall Street Journal has reported. He's talked about how he thinks she's ineffective and weak. She was playing to an audience of one. And he. If there is one thing that man will not touch, it's anything in those Epstein files. So she couldn't acknowledge them. And that image of her looking away from them when they all had their hands up looking at her, boy, that's one that's going to make the history books in a really big way. And that, you know, that's the brittle of this. Once it starts to crack and you can already start to see cracks, then everybody's going to turn on each other. And that's. You know, you mentioned Homan. I mean, remember, Homan is allegedly the recipient of a $50,000 bribe that in a real Department of Justice, would not only make sure he wasn't in power, would also make sure he was answering to that. That there would be accountability for that.

[Dana Goldberg]

That.

[Unidentified Speaker]

And once those cracks start to happen and the American people stop being tribal and saying, I don't care. That's my team in there. And we reassert the principle, we become truly Team America, Team Constitution, Those sorts of things cannot survive. And again, you even think back to 1974 and the Republicans saying to Richard Nixon, dude, you're out of here.

[Alison Gill]

Here.

[Unidentified Speaker]

That was within my lifetime. You know, we could have that again, but in the future, we're going to have to figure out better ways. You know what I think would have done it, to be honest, in the 80s, because we start to get voter suppression in 86. And I think if we had been suspicious, I think coming out of World War II, we had too much faith that this system was going to endure. And so when you got things like the 2000 election and the Brooks Brothers riot and the attempt to steal that election for George W. Bush, too many people, including at that point, Al Gore, were like, well, we care about the system, so we're not going to be in the streets and fighting. And what was interesting about that election, I'm sorry, I went down a rabbit hole here. But was, you know, who understood what was at stake? Black Americans. I did a Deep dive on this. Fairly recently, black Americans were like, they're still in election here, folks. This is exactly what we saw during reconstruction. And I think maybe going forward, we've got to be much more suspicious of those in power when they start to overreach and we let things go too far for too long.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Yeah, I agree. And, man, it's like in 2016, when we were like, what? Russia interferes in our elections? And the Ukrainians were like, are you new? Are you new here?

[Unidentified Speaker]

It's the same guy. It's Paul Manafort and both of them. It's literally the same guy. And people are like, what do you mean? We couldn't possibly be victims of this.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Yeah, Well, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today. I know we covered a lot of ground, and I. I just want to encourage everybody to sign up if you haven't subscribed to Letters from an American. And then there's also the amazing other Cox Richardson YouTube channel where she comes most days and. And gives us a breakdown of. Of what she sees and how she sees it. I really appreciate you spending some time with me today.

[Unidentified Speaker]

It's always a pleasure, and it's, you know, it's. We don't do it enough. That's on me. But it's always a pleasure, and we should do it more often.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Okay, I agree.

[Dana Goldberg]

Deal.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

And everybody, thank you so much for being here on a Saturday morning where we should all be read. Let's all go rest. Let's all go have some brekkie and take some time and. And for ourselves. Sound good?

[Unidentified Speaker]

Sounds great. Although I'm gonna add chocolate into that.

[Alison Gill]

All right.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Chocolate too.

[Alison Gill]

I'm. I'm.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

I'm in. Thank you all so much for joining. If you have a moment to subscribe to the breakdown, I would appreciate it. And it's free to subscribe everything, and I don't put anything behind a paywall, so I just appreciate.

[Dana Goldberg]

Here.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

And we'll see you all next time. Thanks so much. Bye, Heather.

[Unidentified Speaker]

Take care.

[Narrator]

History is messy. It's weird, wild, and anything but boring. Rainy Day Rabbit Holes is a history podcast about unhinged stories that make you stop and ask, wait, is this real life? From crazy disasters and tasty scandals to enlightening and surprising, heartwarming tales, we explore the moments where people behave badly and sometimes beautifully. We've got naughty politics, competitions, cultural chaos, and a deep love for the Pacific Northwest, including Bigfoot. It's thoughtful, irreverent, occasionally serious, and always entertaining. Let's fall down the rabbit hole.

[Alison Gill]

MSW Media. Hey everybody, welcome back. It's time for the good news.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Who likes good news?

[Dana Goldberg]

Everyone?

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Then good news everyone.

[Alison Gill]

And if you have any good news suggestions for us, any small little thing that's happened to you or something big that's happened and it could be recent or in the distant past, send it to us. You can also send us your good trouble recommendations from stuff you would like us to do as people to help preserve democracy. You can send those in. You can also send in like shout outs that'll put a smile on our face like a shout. Shout out your spouse or a loved one or yourself. We love self shout outs. Tell us why you're awesome. Because you are. You can send that to us and shout outs to government programs that have helped you or a loved one. You can shout out a small business or a nonprofit. And all you gotta do to get your submission read on the air is pay your POD pet tariff, which means really just attach any photo, any photo at all works. It can be your pet. It can be an adoptable pet in your area. It can be a random animal on the Internet. We love baby animals especially. You can send us your family photos, baby pictures, photos of rallies, protest signs that you love. You know those highway overpass protests?

[Dana Goldberg]

Love that was. Love those.

[Alison Gill]

Send us pictures of those. Send us pictures of what you're making or creating. If you're knitting or even you got like egg laying hens that you're raising or you're milking some goats, whatever it is that you love that will bring a smile to our face. We need to share in your little hopes and even your big giant ones too. Send them all to us. Dailybeanspod.com click on contact. I have a reminder. Beans Talk, our video podcast, has its own audio feed. So if YouTube isn't your thing, you can listen to the Beans Talk. Wherever you get your podcast. Just search Beans Talk two words in your favorite podcast app or check out the link in the episode notes. We'll have a link for you. So I know a lot of people are like, I just don't have time to watch YouTube or I like to listen when I'm out for a jog or a walk or on the treadmill or driving. Because you know, don't watch YouTube while you're driving, but you can listen to the audio and we'll have a link in the show notes. So first up is your good trouble. And this comes from Tarquin Fin, Tim Lin Bin Win, Bim Limb, Bus Stop, Fatang Fatang Olay Biscuit barrel pronouns he and him.

[Dana Goldberg]

Thank you.

[Alison Gill]

That is I'm assuming icky icky zwing. I think that's the Knights who say knee in Monty Python. And we welcome Monty Python quotes. So thank you listener. Since the kitchen table days, AG and dg keep up the good fight. I've got some good trouble for you to share that is time sensitive. ICE has bought a giant 800,000 square foot warehouse in Hagerstown, Maryland. Wes Moore, governor of Maryland, opposes this obviously, but has not announced any actions yet to stop it. At a morning meeting on February 10, the MAGA led Washington County Board of Commissioners issued a resolution fully supporting this action and all that ICE and DHS are doing. Their next meeting, which as usual has time for public comment is Wednesday, February 24th, 6:00pm local time in Funkstown, Maryland. By the way, Funkstown is a great name for a town. Yeah, State of Maryland and Washington county residents have an opportunity to voice our outrage at ice's expansion in our great community. Man, if y' all showed up in the hundreds and maybe a thousand, that would be amazing. Meetings like this will let public officials, local contractors and supporting vendors know that their actions will have both electoral and financial consequences. Thanks to Instagram account for Kate for the people for raising this issue. We'll have a link in the show notes to her account for Bipod Pet Tax. I'm uploading a painting of a steampunk version of Chewbacca because that's how I roll. Chewbacca would do unpleasant things if he met an ICE agent. Take care.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Look at this.

[Alison Gill]

Steampunk Chewy.

[Dana Goldberg]

It's so cool.

[Alison Gill]

That is fantastic. Thank you so much. By the way, that's how Roger Stone dresses when he goes to the club. But I really appreciate this. Thank you so much.

[Dana Goldberg]

Love this. All right, this is from Lael Pronoun. She and her hello freaky frolic. I wrote how my son's scholarship was taken away when the Department of Education was defunded. He did get some back this semester. While I do love goats, I just found mini donkeys. Check them out. Here's a link to mini donkeys on TikTok. Also, this is my dog, Rico. Oh my God. I love when people do this. Village rescue out of rural Alaska. We were told he was supposed to be a sled dog. He stopped growing at £13. Breed is unknown. We do draw eyebrows on him for effect.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

Okay.

[Alison Gill]

I was like, are those his actual eyebrows?

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh my God. So good.

[Alison Gill]

He looks like a tiny German shepherd. Do they make mini German shepherds?

[Dana Goldberg]

I know. He might Literally be an Alaskan sled dog. Like a little wolf.

[Alison Gill]

Oh, my God, they're so cute. Tiny sled dog. Oh, thank you for that. The dog is amazing. And thanks for that information. I'm so glad he got some of his funds back this semester from the Department of Education. And I love mini donkeys, too. All right, next up, Tony pronouns he And Him. Him. Dear Alice and Dana and the ships at sea. Ships at sea. Saturday was a wonderful day. We had our regular Saturday demonstration at Memorial park on State street in alliance. It was 48 degrees, blue sky, and a moderate breeze. What a contrast from last week where it was 13 degrees with a wind chill well below zero. I went from a spacesuit to shirt sleeves in one week. A few things have happened since my last post. A month or so ago, a police officer came by with a don't hate me, I'm just following orders look on his face and, and told us that we weren't allowed to attach flag poles to the city's fence posts, so we had to strike all our flags on the way home. I designed plywood brackets to go under a car's wheels with a socket to hold the pole. This week I completed 14, so we were able to fly a bunch of flags. We've added a few recently, and we now have Greenland, Haiti, Venezuela, and Puerto Rico. I also got giant Progress Pride in American flags bags. They're 8 by 12 foot, and they really make a show. My amazing wife is not a demonstrator, but she's a prodigious knitter. She found a pattern for the red tassel hat the Norwegians wore to defy the Nazis during the occupation, and she made me one, and it looks really sharp. She then made two more for me to give away. Knitters across the country are making them by the thousands, and in some areas, red yarn can't be found. When we were done, I went to find lunch, and when I came out of the restaurant, I found a note on my truck. I fly a pride flag on the back of the cap and many pride stickers on it. And the note said, we love your truck. We see it everywhere. Thanks for giving us good vibes. That's amazing. Attached, please find pictures of some flags and hats. And this is Tony with his incredible flags. And this is just amazing. So are the red hats. That's incredible. I love that about the Norwegians.

[Dana Goldberg]

And me too.

[Alison Gill]

They're red tasseled hats. I, I, I want, I want one.

[Dana Goldberg]

So awesome. So, so awesome. All right. This is from Jim Pronouncy. And him. This is a thank you to all who have paid and are paying into the Medicare system. Last summer my cataracts finally got to the point where I needed to have them taken care of. I also decided my left knee was done and it had to be replaced. Both surgeries and the PT for the knee were covered by medicine care. I was riding my bike again less than three months after my knee replacement surgery. Then in mid October, I had my first bike wreck that in 70 years of riding that band aids and ice wouldn't cure. I ended up in a trauma center with multiple broken ribs. Jesus, my friend. A broken collar bone and a partially collapsed lung. I won't go into details but no auto was involved and it was entirely my fault. My 2025 cycling sea season was over. Medicare came to the rescue again. I'm still in PT but beginning to ride very cautiously again when the crappy Indiana winter weather permits. Thanks to UNAG and all the production team for the sanity of Trump Hellscape, we are living through, here are a couple friends we met in 2016 on the trail to the viewpoint at the Logan Logan Pass Visitor center in Glacial national park, which is another wonderful thing we taxpayers have given to ourselves.

[Alison Gill]

Goats in the park. Look at the goats.

[Dana Goldberg]

Jim, I'm glad you're relatively okay, man. I tell you what, I know that you're a cyclist through and through because any other person that wreck would have benched them for a very long time or indefinitely. But cyclists, I'm telling you what, they're just like. No, literally, I'm getting back on the bike.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, I'm glad you're doing all right, my friend. Yeah. And yeah, thanks. Thanks to Medicare for taking care of you. All right, next up for Mary Pronoun. She and her hello cussing cuties. With all the going on in the world, I'd like to share share what's been saving my sanity. Apart from your wonderful sweary selves, of course. During Mango Mussolini's first term, with no experience, I started teaching myself art. I love combining abstract with Celtic elements. Somehow it soothes both the puzzle solving and creative sides of my brain. And I get a little mood lift seeing my skills improve. Eventually I started making pieces for loved ones. They've been so appreciative and it feels good to spread a little joy if I can. It's kind of scary to put my work out there, but I've attached one I did for my cat lover. For friends, I hope it makes you smile. For my POD pet tariff, here's Ace Red and Gambit Black on the day they got tutored. I'm pretty sure you can guess their breed or at least get close. That art is beautiful. And these corgis, wow, wow.

[Interviewer (possibly Allison Gill)]

With their donuts.

[Alison Gill]

And I know, by the way, Mary, when you say, here's the day they got tutored, I know what that's from. It's from a Gary Larson cartoon where two dogs are wagging their tails, getting ready to go in the car and one says to the other, I don't know where we're going, but he says.

[Unidentified Speaker]

We'Re going to go get tutored.

[Alison Gill]

Awesome.

[Dana Goldberg]

So I I, oh my God, that's funny.

[Alison Gill]

I know that reference. It's one of my favorite Gary Larson cartoons. So thank you, Mary, and thanks to everyone for sending in your incredible good news. Dana, do you have any final thoughts before we get out of here today? Not today. All right, well, we will be back tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that and the day after that. So until then, please take care of yourselves, take care of each other, take care of the planet, take care of your mental health and take care of your framily. I've been ag. I've been dg and them's the Beans. The Daily Beans is written and executive produced by Alison Gill with additional research and reporting by Dana Goldberg. Sound design and editing is by Desiree McFarlane with art and web design by Joelle Reader with Moxie Design Studios. Music for the Daily Beans is written and performed by they Might Be Giants and the show is a proud member of the MSW Media Network, a collection of creator owned podcasts dedicated to news, politics and justice. For more information please Visit mswmedia.com.msw media.