Alison Gill (4:56)

You know, the reason I am always interested in these cases. I watch a lot of true crime, and I often see prosecutors saying, well, all of a sudden this evidence came in that made it so our main suspect was, you know, eliminated as a suspect. And it was a real bummer for everyone in the office. And I'm like, is it a bummer? Shouldn't you be out here trying your best to exonerate every single suspect and eliminate people, instead of, like you said, having this tunnel vision, which is what happened with a Central Park 5 2. It's gotta be these kids. And making all of the information sort of fit your theory about it, which is probably rooted heavily in bias. So talk a little bit about. Because that's why I would go after this. But talk about, like, what. What was your focus here? I mean, other than other than obviously just to bring light to this miscarriage of justice?

Shannon Lynch (5:49)

Yeah, well, I was living in the neighborhood where it happened when I found out about this case. And I was completely shocked that I had never heard of it and then became further concerned when I started talking to other Folks in dc, especially young people that also had no idea that this had happened. And so I, you know, I decided to start reporting on it. And it is evident that racism was a huge part of, of this story. You know, I. With such a flimsy case that was based solely on false confessions, mind you, there was no physical evidence whatsoever that tied any of the accused men to the crime scene. If this had been a group of young white men, I highly doubt it would have even gone to trial. And so, you know, it being such a clear injustice, and I was already working in podcasts, I decided that I would try and make a limited series on it to investigate it a little bit further.

Alison Gill (6:53)

Oh, I'm really glad you did. And let's talk a little bit about the pardon process, because as soon as you and I are done talking, I'm actually gonna drop part of one of the episodes into this so that people can hear it. It's one of the ones that came out over the summer because we're kind of like, if I can explain to the listeners, we're sort of in the middle of this series right now because the eight part series on the case came out, I think, in 2023. And then this summer, because of the pardon thing that, you know, that you're pursuing and you're wanting people to help, you know, raise voices about with the current administration. There were two episodes that came out over the summer, and then there will be more episodes coming out, but we should have people listen to the episodes that are relevant to the pardon process because that's where we can make a difference right now with, you know, writing letters and, and raising our voices and bringing this out on social media. So talk a little bit about the pardon situation because a lot of people will say, well, they're already out of jail, or why does it matter? Like people like help, help explain why it' to people, why it's actually important that we still do this and encourage the President to pardon these guys.

Shannon Lynch (8:09)

Yeah. So as you mentioned, they've all been released. They all served their minimum sentences, which was between 26 and 37 and a half years. So altogether, these men spent more than 200 years in prison. And without admitting any guilt, they were released on parole, which is pretty rare for a murder case. You know, usually you have to express some level of remorse or responsibility, and none of them would, because none of them would lie to get themselves out of a difficult situation. But it continues to affect every aspect of their lives. I mean, the one that people most often talk about is Jobs, which is very important. You know, there are certain jobs they can't apply to even if they can apply to it. There's often a level of discrimination because of the record they have. And, you know, these men are incredibly talented in multiple different areas, and their careers they just can't pursue because of that.

Alison Gill (9:10)

But a president. They could run for president. Felons are apparently allowed to do that now.

Shannon Lynch (9:17)

They could. They could.

Alison Gill (9:18)

I don't mean to joke, but like the discrepancy of justice, the massive chasm of justice that lies between the fact that there is a felon that has been elected to the White House and. And here we have innocent people whose lives are negatively impacted for the rest of their lives by these convictions that deserve the clemency. The mercy of a pardon is, you know, the hypocrisy is kind of mind blowing. So I didn't mean to laugh at that, but it is. I mean, if we don't laugh, we'll cry sometimes. But talk about why, you know, having this removed helps. I mean, this exoneration is extremely important, like you said.

Shannon Lynch (9:58)

Yeah. So other than with jobs, most felons will lose their right to vote, at least for a period of time after being released from prison. That doesn't apply to these men, just because DC is really unique in that you never lose your right to vote, even when you're imprisoned. But that is not the case for the vast majority of formerly imprisoned people. So there's that. But also, just on a personal level, you know, these men got out after having decades of their lives stolen from them, and they. They want to form relationships, they want to try and get married and, you know, enjoy the amount of life that they do have left. And as you can imagine, it's incredibly hard to meet someone that, you know, completely new, and you say to them, oh, by the way, this is on my record, but I didn't do it. Most people are going to look at that and say, hmm, maybe I shouldn't keep talking to this person. And they've. Several of them have told me these stories of women that they've tried to date that just kind of ghosted after finding this out. And then the level of trauma, you know, the level of PTSD that they still hold. You know, several of them won't go into the 8th and H area. They. They do not rightfully so, do not trust the D.C. police and are scared to go in certain parts of D.C. and several of them, you know, still wake up at 4am, 5am because of all the years that they were in prison with this kind of automatic defense mode that they're in survival mode, really, because that was so ingrained into their being.

Alison Gill (11:50)

Yeah, I can't imagine, you know, the trauma that, that kind of, you know, I mean, it has to gut you. It has to just completely upend your life. But you actually have a call to action, something that people can actually do here to help make a difference and to, to right this wrong. What is, what is the call to action? Let everybody know.

Shannon Lynch (12:10)

Yeah, there are several things that people can do. The first being, you know, talking about this case with your friends and family. Public pressure is an extremely important aspect of getting a presidential pardon nowadays. So talking about it, posting about it on social media. We do ask, if you post about it, to use the hashtag 8th and H Justice. And, you know, just raising public awareness at this time is so critical and so urgent. The other piece of this is there is a website that you can go to called 8th and hjustice.org and there you can sign a letter of support, and there you can also read the entire pardon applications for each of the six men and just learn more about the case. And, you know, we've just seen pardons have, for better or worse, become a very political process, and we need the support and the help of the public for a pardon to go through.

Alison Gill (13:14)

Great. Well, I, I really appreciate you doing this, a show, doing the call to action, putting it together, the website where people can sign the letter. And, you know, you said one way to, to help is to get the word out. So I, you know, after this break, we're actually going to play a part of episode 10, which is called Pardon Pursuit. And I really encourage everyone listening to, to, you know, to listen to it, but also to share it. Share the series with your friends and your family, people, you know, get the word out with your networks on social media. Share the series, Listen to the series from the beginning. You can subscribe for free wherever you get your podcasts. And it's called the Alley. It's a really, really informative and incredible podcast. And we're gonna have parts of episode 10 for you after this quick break. Do you have any final thoughts before we get out of here today? Shannon?

Shannon Lynch (14:05)

You know, just the thought that in the off chance someone is listening to this. Well, not off chance, because you have a huge reach that may maybe works in the White House or works in the Justice Department, I would just encourage you to just look at the facts. Take the time to look at the facts in this case and for any reasonable person that looks at what happened to these young men. They know there was a real injustice here. And we have one last chance to fix this injustice. And I hope that people will really take the time to consider it.

Alison Gill (14:38)

Well, thank you so much for the work and thanks for coming on everybody. Again, the podcast, you can get it wherever you get your podcast. It's called the ally DC's 8th and age case, hosted by our guest today, Shannon Lynch. Shannon, thank you so much for joining us.

Shannon Lynch (14:51)

Thank you for having me.

Alison Gill (14:52)

All right, everybody, stick around. We'll be right back with part of episode 10 of the Alley. It's called Pardon Pursuit. So stay with us. Hey, everybody. So for years, sleep was an uphill battle. I'd spend hours tossing and turning. I would be sweating. I would wake up feeling groggy and unmotivated. It wasn't just my nights that were affected. Poor sleep left me irritable, unfocused and running on empty all day. My work and my relationship suffered because I simply wasn't at my best. And that's why I'm so excited to talk about Beam's Dream Powder, a science backed, healthy nighttime blend for sleep that is actually clinically shown to improve sleep and have you waking up refreshed. Other sleep aids can cause next day grogginess, but Dream contains an all powerful, all natural blend of Reishi, magnesium, L theanine, apigenin and melatonin to help you fall asleep, stay asleep and wake up refreshed. Dream is clinically shown to improve sleep by helping you fall asleep faster and stay asleep longer and it helps you wake up refreshed. Right now I really like like the salted caramel. It's delicious. It's become my go to. It's like ending my day with a warm, comforting hug from the inside and only 15 calories and no sugar. So it's completely guilt free. Since adding dream to my routine, my nights have really transformed. I wake up feeling recharged with the energy and clarity to tackle the busiest days. My mood has improved, my focus is better and sharper. I finally feel like I'm thriving instead of just, you know, surviving, keeping my head above water. And as I look ahead to 2025, I'm going to need all the energy I can get. And I know you do too. And Beam Dream will continue to be a cornerstone of my nightly routine. So if you've struggled with sleep like I have, now is the time to try Dream. Better nights lead to brighter days and Beam Dream makes it all possible. The ultimate sleep refresh for the new year, try Beam's best selling dream powder. You'll get up to 40% off when you go to ShopBeam.com DailyBeans and use the code DailyBeans at checkout. That's Shop B E A M.com DailyBeans with code Daily Beans for up to 40% off.

Shannon Lynch (17:01)

On November 20, 2024, my colleague Ben Sands and I walked to the White House, which is just a block from the New America office. The sounds of drilling and pounding wood filled Lafayette Square. Construction had begun on the viewing stands for the presidential inauguration parade set to occur in exactly two months. We went to the White House to ask a simple question to Americans visiting the home of the President. What does a presidential pardon do?

Alison Gill (17:32)

It frees somebody from prison.

Shannon Lynch (17:35)

During my conversations about the 8th in each case, the vast majority of people I talked to believe a presidential pardon is only good for one thing.

Carly Anderson (17:45)

From what I'm understanding, is it frees.

Shannon Lynch (17:47)

People that are wrongfully incarcerated. When I tell people that the falsely accused men applied for a presidential pardon, they almost always respond with the same question.

Carly Anderson (17:57)

Well, why do they need a pardon if they've already been released from prison?

Shannon Lynch (18:01)

Even though Levi Rouse, Chris Turner, Charles Turner, Cliff Yarborough, Timothy Catlett, and Russell Overton were released on parole after completing their minimum sentences, nearly every aspect of their lives are affected by the murder conviction that continues to hang over their heads. For starters, when they first got out, the prospect of just beginning their adult lives in their 50s and 60s was daunting. Here's Timothy Catlett.

Carly Anderson (18:28)

I tell a lot of people, I say, man, I'm like a 21, 22 year old kid getting out here, trying to find a way in life. You know, when I look at other people my age, you know, they got houses and cars and, you know, and here I am, I got out at 55, and I'm saying, man, where I'm gonna start at, how I'm gonna start.

Shannon Lynch (18:50)

After facing the massive challenge of reorienting themselves in a society that bears little resemblance to the world they left in 1984, the men from the 8th and H case were subjected to many other obstacles. For example, their ability to form relationships and friendships after prison have been strongly affected by their continued status as convicted murderers. Charles Turner says he's hesitant to share the conviction with people he meets.

Carly Anderson (19:17)

You know, we go out in the world, we meet people. Some people we become all right, with, some people we don't. But for me, it's just always a part of me that I just, I know I'M not going to share with people.

Shannon Lynch (19:29)

Due to their understandable mistrust of others, several of them live pretty isolated lives. Here's Russell Overton.

Carly Anderson (19:37)

I basically just be home with my family. I don't go out nowhere. You know, I just stay home and live off of one check at a time.

Shannon Lynch (19:44)

Levi Rouse also avoids being around strangers.

Carly Anderson (19:48)

By me being incarcerated for so long, I don't trust people. I don't like being around people.

Shannon Lynch (19:53)

Chris Turner relayed a story about a woman he was dating at one point.

Carly Anderson (19:57)

One young lady I was dating, she had heard her brother told her that that's one of them guys off that killed that lady in the alley. And she didn't want to hear no more. She didn't want to hear my side of stories.

Shannon Lynch (20:10)

These men's relationships with family members have also been strained. In some instances, the conviction severed familial relationships that couldn't be fixed even after their release. Levi Rouse told me, my family, you.

Carly Anderson (20:24)

Know, some of them I don't even speak to no more because I feel that nobody was there for me when I went in prison. I feel like if you weren't there for me when I went in, you're not there for me now.

Shannon Lynch (20:36)

Chris Turner fathered two sons prior to being sent to prison. Despite his best intentions, decades of separation have made it difficult for him to rekindle these relationships.

Carly Anderson (20:46)

The way my relationship is affected with my sons is we don't really know each other. My ideas of them being my sons was different than their ideas of me being their dad. I had ideas that I wanted to do and wanted to share that I never got a chance to do with them. How do you begin being a dad to someone that's in their 40s and you haven't been a dad to them over the course of their life?

Shannon Lynch (21:15)

Additionally, the conviction makes finding stable housing a challenge. Cliff Yarborough, for example, has been facing a reality of uncertain housing for much of this year. Widespread discrimination from landlords and public housing authorities based on an individual's criminal record, coupled with the scarcity of affordable housing options make it difficult to secure stable housing upon reentry into society.

Carly Anderson (21:40)

I was in a process of applying for housing, and the caseworker that I had said that they didn't put me in because of my charge and they said they will put me in again. And I feel with them because of what I was charged with that they are just dragging me right along, probably not putting me in when they say they are putting me in because of what I was accused of.

Shannon Lynch (22:02)

According to the Institute for Justice Research and Development at Florida State University, about 60% of formerly incarcerated people depend on family and friends for housing immediately upon release. However, for someone who's been incarcerated for decades, family members pass and friends move on. So this source of housing isn't as reliable as it is for people with shorter sentences. People with felony convictions from the District of Columbia are unique in that they never lose their voting rights. However, in this discussion about the effects of a felony conviction after release from prison, it's important to note that this is not the case for the vast majority of incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people in all states. But two People who are convicted of a felony lose their right to vote when they enter prison. In 23 states, voting rights are automatically restored after Release, but in 25 states, formerly imprisoned people can be banned from voting for several years after being released. In some states, people with felony convictions can lose their right to vote for the rest of their lives. Here's Blair Bowie, the director of Restore youe Vote at the Campaign Legal Center. Across the U.S. over 4 million Americans with past felony convictions are legally denied.

Alison Gill (23:20)

Their right to vote because of felony.

Shannon Lynch (23:22)

Disenfranchisement laws in their state.

Alison Gill (23:25)

There are an estimated over 24 million Americans who have passed felony convictions, and over 80% of those people actually do.

Shannon Lynch (23:33)

Have the right to vote. But a lot of them don't exercise it and actually believe that they don't.

Alison Gill (23:38)

Have the right to vote because these.

Shannon Lynch (23:40)

Laws can be really confusing and they.

Alison Gill (23:43)

Vary widely from state to state.

Shannon Lynch (23:47)

Furthermore, formerly incarcerated people face an uphill battle in their pursuit to become gainfully employed. According to data published by the justice department, roughly 60% of federal prisoners are jobless a year after being released. While Timothy, Charles, Clif, Levi, Russell, and Chris are all currently employed, their options for sustainable compensation are extremely limited. They're also unable to pursue careers in fields they're passionate about. Timothy Catlett, for example, spent 30 years working in prison kitchens and found a real calling in culinary arts. He hoped to pursue this field further after his release.

Carly Anderson (24:27)

I went on quite a few interviews with restaurants, and when I go into interviews, it was mostly, have you worked in a restaurant for a year? Have you worked in a restaurant for two years? And if not, then you know they wasn't hiring you.

Shannon Lynch (24:43)

None of the employers Mr. Catlett approached considered his decades of work in prison kitchens legitimate enough to fulfill their one to two year experience requirement while in prison. Mr. Catlett went out of his way to pursue training to prepare him to work in restaurants upon release. But these Efforts also didn't seem to make a difference for prospective employers.

Carly Anderson (25:05)

I got my manager's license, I got my overall food service cost license. I mean, what more could you want? What made it so frustrating is that they hire a lot of people that I know that don't have the experience that I have.

Shannon Lynch (25:21)

Like Mr. Catlett, Charles Turner developed skills and found a passion in his work.

Carly Anderson (25:26)

One job I liked when I was in, I was in the procurement field and I used to decipher contract government contracts. I've seen some really big government contracts for the federal bill. Prisons big ones, 20 million, 50 million. And I had to read the contract and make sure that the wording was correct and all the specs was correct. I had to read pages and pages.

Shannon Lynch (25:49)

After his release, Charles has been unable to secure a job as a procurement specialist. He's currently employed at a library as a custodial worker. Like Charles, several of these men have career aspirations they cannot pursue due to their status. For example, Cliff Yarborough currently works for a program called Safe Passage which ensures DC students safe entry and exit from schools. He has a real passion for working with kids and would be an excellent teacher or school aide. But he can't legally work for D.C. public schools until his name is cleared. The widespread trauma these men suffered while locked inside prison walls has stuck with them long after reentering society. Timothy Catlett told me, I have a.

Carly Anderson (26:36)

Dream every now and then about being inside. Yes, I just had one the other night. Your mind play games with you. If you just let it, you know it will play games with you.

Shannon Lynch (26:47)

After being in a state of constant survival mode for decades while incarcerated, these men are constantly concerned for their safety. For Levi Rouse, he notices this particularly when he goes out to eat.

Carly Anderson (27:00)

When I go in a restaurant, always get up and check all the doors, which way to get out, which way to get in.

Shannon Lynch (27:06)

Russell Overton feels a similar sense of hyper vigilance. Even while at home.

Carly Anderson (27:11)

Slightest little noise I hear, I'll go through the house. You know, it's not that I'm afraid, it's just I don't want no harm to come to me or my family.

Shannon Lynch (27:19)

After facing such poor treatment by police officers, these men live in a constant state of vigilance around law enforcement. Here's Chris Turner again.

Carly Anderson (27:28)

You find yourself always looking in your mirror, rear view mirror once you go past the police. Now, are they looking for a reason to stop me? And so you don't get to live a normal life. There isn't a normal day of driving to work driving home from work anymore because that psychologically always plays a part in your mind.

Shannon Lynch (27:52)

There's also a level of agony some of them hold in their hearts for their inability to see loved ones before they passed. Here's Charles Turner again.

Carly Anderson (28:01)

I was treated like crap when I was in. I couldn't see my father. I wanted to see my own father before he passed. I couldn't see my grandmother, couldn't see my mother. And so it became a source of bitterness for me.

Shannon Lynch (28:14)

Despite attending therapy and being part of support groups, there are certain aspects of the trauma these men have experienced that will probably never leave them. Emotional scars that will never heal. Here's Russell Overton again.

Carly Anderson (28:28)

Anybody that been locked up so long, 30, I mean, three decades, you know, and you come back to society, you're trying to fit in, you know, be happy. But how can you be happy whenever you got something so terrible over your head? I mean, it's a mental thing why this happened to me. I mean, that was cruel. I ain't holding no ill feelings against no one know anything. I just wish this be over with and the truth be out.

Shannon Lynch (28:54)

Levi, Charles, Cliff, Chris, Timothy and Russell will of course never be able to give back the decades of their lives that were taken from them. However, a presidential pardon would be an effective step in aiding their journey to healing. As we await a potential pardon, we will continue to publish updates in real time on the App Rally feed, so stay tuned if you're called to act. You can sign a letter of support@eightnhjustice.org you can also help by talking about this case on social media using the hashtag 8th and hjustice. That's the number 8th a n d H J U S T I C E I'll put all of this information in the show Notes the the way.

Carly Anderson (29:40)

To right wrongs is to turn the.

Shannon Lynch (29:42)

Light of truth upon them.

Carly Anderson (29:44)

Ida B. Wells.

Shannon Lynch (29:51)

Thank you for listening to the Owley. This has been a new America Studios production. Our host and executive producer is Shannon Lynch. Our co producers are David Lanham, Joe Wilkes and me, Carly Anderson. Social media by Maika Malik Visuals by Alex Brynyes Media outreach by Heidi Lewis Additional assistance from Ben Sands and Morel Mackey. Please rate, review and subscribe to the Ally wherever you like to listen to podcasts. Stay tuned for our next six episodes which will allow listeners to get a deeper understanding of who the men from the 8th and H case are as individuals.

Alison Gill (30:25)

The Daily Beans is written and executive produced by Alison Gill with additional research and reporting by Dana Goldberg. Sound design and editing is by Desiree McFarlane with art and web design by Joelle Reader with Moxie Design Studios. Music for the Daily Beans is written and performed by they Might Be Giants and the show is a proud member of the MSW Media Network, a collection of creator owned podcasts dedicated to news, politics and justice. For more information please visit mswmedia.com msw media.