I Know the Truth About Trump's Demented Greed

Summary

Podcast Summary: "I Know the Truth About Trump's Demented Greed"

The Daily Beast Podcast with Joanna Coles
Date: July 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode brings together host Joanna Coles, journalist Michael Wolff, and co-host Ryan for a lively, incisive discussion around Donald Trump’s psychology of greed and revenge, his family’s alleged grifting, the aftermath of international crises, the Supreme Court’s latest decisions, and the evolving 2028 Democratic field. Through the lens of current scandals and political dynamics, the hosts offer sharp analysis with trademark humor and directness.

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Major Discussion Points

1. The Psychology Behind Trump’s Greed

• Wolff’s Insight: Michael Wolff posits that Trump’s greed transcends simple grift, moving into a realm of self-justified revenge and entitlement, which he describes as “demented” rather than merely cynical.

  • Quote:
    “It’s a whole much more elaborate psychology here in which he deserves it. It’s not cynical as much as it is demented. I mean, he literally sees this world in which he deserves to get this money. He deserves to be rewarded.”
    — Michael Wolff [00:00 & 10:25]

• Joanna pushes Wolff to clarify whether Trump’s self-perception is rooted in prior feelings of persecution, particularly from his first term, which Wolff affirms:

  • It’s about revenge for perceived wrongs and a desire to rebalance the scales in his favor.

  • Quote:
    “So it’s not just grift for him. It’s truly revenge, a revenge that he deserves.”
    — Michael Wolff [09:06]

2. Trump Family Grift: Kazakhstan Mining Deal

• The panel examines reports that Trump’s sons have profited from a U.S.-backed mining deal in Kazakhstan, facilitated by a bank with offices in Trump Tower—showing blatant self-dealing.

  • Quote:
    “So the sons of the President of the United States have gotten a piece of a deal that is...possible because the United States is putting up the money for it. So therefore, the sons...are directly benefiting from the taxpayer.”
    — Michael Wolff [06:00]

• The group discusses the lack of public outcry and the normalization of conflicts of interest within the Trump administration.

  • Quote:
    “Donald Trump says nobody cares, and he may not be wrong.”
    — Joanna Coles [07:05]

3. The Strait of Hormuz Crisis

• Joanna and Wolff dissect the fallout of U.S.-Iran relations, the imposition of new tolls on shipping through the Strait of Hormuz, and Trump’s failed objectives.

  • Key Points:

    • Iran now controls the Strait and is imposing a $2 million toll per tanker ([16:12]).
    • Result: Instead of regime change, Trump’s policy has enriched and empowered the Iranian regime ([17:15]).

  • Quote:
    “There was the Strait of Hormuz before this war began, was free passage. Now it is not. Now it is controlled by Iran. That is what Donald Trump has achieved.”
    — Michael Wolff [15:29]

  • Comment on U.S. politics’ short memory:
    “Is this forgotten by then?...It’s not that complicated.”
    — Michael Wolff & Joanna Coles [17:19, 17:32]

4. Election Strategy & Republican Party Dynamics

• Trump Fixated on Election Rules:
  Facing catastrophic poll numbers, Trump is singularly obsessed with manipulating election rules and voting restrictions in hopes of eking out a win ([25:24-26:06]).

  • Quote:
    “You know, in again, that demented kind of way... Obsessed, obsessed.”
    — Michael Wolff [26:06]

• Republican Party Loyalty:
  Despite Trump’s losses, the base remains loyal, compelling Republican leaders to fall in line, especially after post–January 6th polling ([28:41-29:17]).

  • Quote:
    “The Republican Party itself has no control over the Republican Party...It’s Donald Trump who has that control.”
    — Michael Wolff [29:13]

5. Supreme Court Decisions

• Losses and "Threading the Needle":

  • Trump faces setbacks (e.g., mail-in voting in Mississippi, Lisa Cook’s position on the Fed, E. Jean Carroll verdict), but a bigger win: expanded powers to fire executive branch officials is seen as a “war on the administrative state” victory ([30:13-32:06]).
  • Discussion of the Supreme Court’s careful, arguably corrupt, balancing act to both enable and restrain Trump.
    • “It is not for them, not an issue of constitutional law anymore. It’s an issue of what we, what we have to give Donald Trump, what we can withhold from Donald Trump, what fealty we owe to Donald Trump.”
      — Michael Wolff [31:20]

• Birthright Citizenship Ruling:
  The hosts react with relief that SCOTUS struck down Trump’s attempt to end birthright citizenship, despite a 6:3 margin.

  • Quote:
    "I'm still staggered that three justices dissented...Alito and Thomas are 100% Trump. 100%. Not nothing."
    — Joanna Coles & Michael Wolff [38:05]

6. Trump’s Foreign Policy Failures: Russia and Ukraine

• Trump’s “big-little map” logic is mocked as the panel discusses his affinity for Putin and detachment from U.S. allies.

  • “He looks at a map and he sees Russia, that’s big, all that land frozen, all that land. Ukraine, much smaller. I’m going to go with the big guy and I swear to God that’s what he did.”
    — Michael Wolff [33:44]

• Analysis of Trump’s gross misreading of the Russia-Ukraine war and missed opportunity for a diplomatic win ([34:53-37:11]).

7. Lighter Segments—Groceries, the Newsoms, and Hair in Politics

• Debate about milk prices and who actually grocery shops or cooks in the hosts' households—injecting humor and relatable banter.
• Gavin & Jennifer Newsom:
  Their political potential and charisma discussed, along with recent allegations of Newsom’s “behested” fundraising for nonprofits tied to his wife. The group analyzes whether this could derail his 2028 prospects, drawing parallels with how Trump handles scandals ([41:10-46:10]).
• Hair, Image & Electability:
  A playful interlude about political hair and campaign optics, featuring Michael Wolff’s high school yearbook photo, with implications for presidential image ([46:26-49:06]).

8. Andy Beshear Mention

• Briefly, Andy Beshear is discussed as a possible national figure but quickly dismissed as lacking the charisma for the presidential stage ([49:30-50:37]).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Trump’s Revenge and Greed:
  “It's not cynical as much as it is demented.” — Michael Wolff [00:00, 10:25]
• Kazakhstan Mining Grift:
  "Does no one care? Does no one see? But let's go back." — Michael Wolff [06:59]
• Strait of Hormuz Outcome:
  “Now it is controlled by Iran. That is what Donald Trump has achieved.” — Michael Wolff [15:29]
• Supreme Court Tactics:
  “...it is not for them, not, not an issue of constitutional law anymore. It's an issue of what we have to give Donald Trump, what we can withhold from Donald Trump, what fealty we owe to Donald Trump.” — Michael Wolff [31:20]
• On Trump’s Foreign Policy Reasoning:
  “He looks at a map and he sees Russia, that’s big... Ukraine, much smaller. I’m going to go with the big guy...we don’t have the capacity to appreciate how phenomenally stupid Donald Trump is.” — Michael Wolff [33:44]
• On Political Optics:
  “If being the President...is at least one factor, is about what kind of hair you have, then he [Newsom] might have a very good shot at this.” — Michael Wolff [41:10]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Trump’s Greed as Psychology vs. Cynicism: [00:00] [10:20]
• Kazakhstan Grift Details: [05:02] – [07:00]
• Strait of Hormuz & Iran: [14:10] – [17:15]
• Election Strategy & GOP Control: [24:16] – [29:17]
• Supreme Court Decisions: [30:13] – [32:06]
  • Birthright Citizenship Ruling: [37:23] – [39:06]
• Russia & Ukraine: [32:32] – [37:11]
• Gavin Newsom, Hair, & “Behested” Payments: [41:10] – [46:10]
• Andy Beshear Digression: [49:30]

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Informal, quick-witted, and irreverent but rooted in deep political insight.
• Panelists alternate between serious critique and light, personal banter (e.g., the grocery shopping challenge, hair jokes).
• Strong use of sarcasm and insider political references.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode unpacks new levels of Trump family grift, the dangerous psychological underpinnings of Trump’s governance, and the normalization of self-dealing and transactional politics in the U.S. The hosts provide an urgent and, at times, biting commentary on legal, political, and cultural shifts, ending with a wry look at political image-making. Listeners come away with a sharper understanding of the “demented” logic that drives Trump and how it continues reshaping American institutional and public life.

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Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

It's a fair exchange. I'm Donald Trump. I'm the President of the United States. I should get something out of this. It's not just grif for him, it's truly revenge. A revenge that he deserves and a step beyond. Certainly any kind of grift that I'm familiar with, even historical grift. It's a whole much more elaborate psychology here in which he deserves it. It's not cynical as much as it is demented. I mean, he literally sees this world in which he deserves to get this money. He deserves to be rewarded.

[Ryan]

Michael.

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna.

[Joanna]

We are back together in person.

[Michael Wolff]

I never thought it would happen, for God's sake.

[Joanna]

I realize we should be at the State Fair. We should have gone down to D.C. because we keep saying we're going to go on the road and explore America. We should have gone down to.

[Michael Wolff]

Other than the fact that it's 100 degrees in Washington, so we would truly be the only ones there. Which is no reflection on the State Fair. It is a reflection on the fact that no human being can be involved. Washington, D.C. this week, but it's also

[Joanna]

a reflection on the State Fair.

[Michael Wolff]

Maybe, but, you know, I want to defend Trump on this.

[Ryan]

Really?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Joanna]

There's nobody there. There's nobody there. Apart from a man who.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, totally. Absolutely true. Politicians can't put on these kind of events. They're just too square.

[Joanna]

They, they, they are too square.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, politicians cannot do entertainment. Even Donald Trump.

[Joanna]

Oh, come on. Ufc. He did ufc. You might not be a UFC fan, but that was an event.

[Michael Wolff]

Good, good point. That was actually. Donald Trump is great at this. So what is he. Let me reverse it completely.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Joanna]

Yeah. Okay. Well, I wish we'd gone to the state fair. 100 degrees or not. I'm now used to 100 degree temperatures and we could have darted in a natural hotel for ac.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm grateful for not. The Trump Hotel is not the Trump Hotel anymore.

[Joanna]

Oh, is it gone?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, gone, gone. Okay. I'm grateful for not being there.

[Joanna]

We could have gone to the club, though. The club that costs, in theory, half a million dollars to join, which has Don Jr. On the board.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, listen, I am available to go places. You can't go places because you are always somewhere else.

[Joanna]

I was. You've given me such a hard time over this. It's so unfair. I was, as you know, in the UK for a long time. Then I had to go to France. But now I'm back. Now I'm back and we have to. You know what?

[Ryan]

We should Ask people, where should Michael and I go?

[Michael Wolff]

No one has to go to France.

[Joanna]

They kind of do. They kind of do. Anyway, I realized my son is investment number one. And I actually, for the first time ever, got a dividend because I got to stay with him free of charge. The first time ever. So the. The long investment is beginning to pay off. Well, we should ask people, where should we go? We could go to, you know, where I've never been and I'd like to go Mount Rushmore. We could go to Mount Rushmore.

[Michael Wolff]

The only place I wanted to go was Greenland. And what happened with that?

[Joanna]

Yeah, well, what did happen? It fell off the news.

[Michael Wolff]

No one's going to want to pay for Mount Rushmore. No one's going to want to pay

[Joanna]

for Washington, D.C. the Dakotas. Right, Mount Rushmore. Okay. So I wonder if the Dakota tourist office would like to pay for us to go. I think we could give it some good publicity. We could also Photoshop it. You could do it on your Instagram with your face at the edge of it. So it's all those presidents and then.

[Michael Wolff]

Michael Wolff, you're truly cheesy.

[Joanna]

I'm high on two coffees this morning. That's the issue. Just before we go, I just want to remind people what we're going to be talking about today. So we've got SCOTUS decision, and we're waiting for the birthright citizenship to drop any moment. We've got the straight of Hormuz, who's paying for it. We've got the staggering levels, new levels of grift. Just as you thought the grift couldn't get bigger. It does. And then we've got a surprise for Michael, a surprise from the past for Michael.

[Michael Wolff]

And you remember those quiz shows when I was growing up, when they used to bring out someone from your past?

[Ryan]

Yes.

[Joanna]

It's a bit like that. We've got a surprise for you. A bit like that. And of course, no surprise asking you to support our independent conversations, because we're independent media with a subscription to the Daily Beast. So press your subscription button. Wherever you get your podcast, you can become a friend of the Beast, which has all sorts of incredible benefits. Friend of the Beast with benefits, indeed. Kazakhstan, critical minerals. Big deal.

[Michael Wolff]

Tungsten.

[Joanna]

Tungsten. Who knew that it was necessary to make everything more lethal?

[Michael Wolff]

I did.

[Joanna]

Oh, you did?

[Michael Wolff]

I did. And obviously the Trumps. The Trump boys knew. Everybody does.

[Joanna]

I think Howard knew, too.

[Michael Wolff]

Who is out to make a buck.

[Joanna]

Yeah, right.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, it's an extraordinary story.

[Joanna]

Go on.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I Can't even. I mean, the grift is the grift, and the grift is there. But this is like. Like just completely out in the open where the Trump boys. So, I mean, get this. So the. The United States is financing a mining deal in Kazakhstan, a deal promising to, you know, make billions and billions. And it's a. I mean, I'm sure the US probably should. Should do this. Makes a lot of sense.

[Joanna]

But.

[Michael Wolff]

But the Trump boys. So the sons of the President of the United States have gotten a piece of a deal that is. That is possible. The deal is possible because the United States is putting up the money for it. So therefore, the sons of the President of the United States are directly benefiting from the taxpayer.

[Joanna]

Right, right. And so the United States is putting up the money to build the critical facilities to start the mining. Right.

[Michael Wolff]

For Kung Stone. Exactly. And then there's this other interesting thing that there's this investment bank. Air quotes. Investment bank. In the middle of this. Domane, it's called. And Domane. Where are the offices of Domane?

[Joanna]

Well, they sound like they should be in Tehran. Where are they?

[Michael Wolff]

Oh, they're in Trump Tower.

[Joanna]

All that. In Trump Tower. Yes, of course. Of course.

[Michael Wolff]

This is like.

[Joanna]

This is.

[Michael Wolff]

Does. Does no one care? Does no one see. But let's go back.

[Joanna]

They don't. Donald Trump says nobody cares, and he may not be wrong.

[Ryan]

You're eating French fries at the beach and you want to take a quick dip in the ocean, so you put a seagull on watch.

[Joanna]

That's not security.

[Ryan]

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[Joanna]

Not all law firms are the same.

[Ryan]

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[Michael Wolff]

Let's go back to the really interesting thing is what Donald Trump thinks about this. And we tend to think of, see him as, he's completely cynical. Just give me the money. I don't think that that's exactly the case. I think it is that he is profoundly in his mind, in his head, believes he deserves this, that he has. It's a fair exchange. I'm Donald Trump. I'm the President of the United States. I should get something out of this.

[Joanna]

And is this because he feels that he was persecuted during the four years?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yes, and that's also the thing. So it's not just, it's not just Griff for him, it's truly revenge, a revenge that he deserves.

[Joanna]

So it's revenge he is due. Right, that he. Right, right.

[Michael Wolff]

So, but this is, this is, I mean this is an important thing and a step beyond, I think, any, certainly any kind of grift that I'm familiar with, even historical grift in which the grifter is not like I'm going to, you know, I'm doing it, I'm getting, I'm feathering my nest. It's a whole much more elaborate psychology here in which he deserves it. He is, they've the system, this is all Donald Trump always against the establishment and the system and they've done me wrong, so I should be paid.

[Joanna]

So he's sort of self adjudicating. He's readdressing the balance. He feels that first time out he got a rum deal.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. So it's not how much money did

[Joanna]

he make from his first administration.

[Michael Wolff]

It's not cynical as much as it is demented.

[Joanna]

Demented.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, he literally sees this world in which he deserves to get this money. He deserves to be rewarded.

[Joanna]

Okay, well, his sons are getting rewarded and nobody seems to care.

[Michael Wolff]

The sons are just the agents of this, obviously. I mean, that's the other thing. The sons are just the Trump lackeys and money is delivered to.

[Joanna]

The irony here is. Right. The irony here is that Donald Trump was broke when Mark Burnett picked him up to be on the Apprentice. He played a successful businessman when he wasn't. But he got paid a lot for the show because the show was so successful. And now he's in office for the second time as president. He turns out to be a successful grifting businessman. I mean, he's gonna lose a lot more money.

[Michael Wolff]

It's pretty easy to be a successful grifter when you're the President of the United States. That's the point.

[Joanna]

And yet, and yet the last.

[Michael Wolff]

That's why we make a thing, you know. You know, you shouldn't, if you're the President of the United States, you shouldn't be self dealing. Duh.

[Joanna]

Right, right. But that's what's extraordinary because if you look back over the last few presidents, none of them were accused of doing that to any great extent.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Joanna]

Maybe there was, there was sort of fishy stuff with Dick Cheney.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Joanna]

At one point he had shares in Blackrock and Halliburton and they were being used in the Iraq war. But there was nothing like the scale of what's going on now.

[Michael Wolff]

There's nothing like the transparency of what's going on now. There's no effort to hide this. Although Domane, the Soviet Bank. Well, I think the Trump boys have a.

[Joanna]

Have an advisory role. Have an advisory role.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly.

[Joanna]

So demented, not cynical.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean that's the other thing. It's the other, I think profound misunderstanding about once again and we've talked about this before about how to understand what's going on in Trump's head. There was a piece, can't remember in the Times recently about the election stuff about Trump trying to subvert elections, about how his.

[Joanna]

Well, your point? I think that his campaign strategy is to try and sow confusion around.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, no, it's actually more, more about, you know, he believes the election was stolen from him and then the Times position, which is common, you know, flat footed position was, was that, you know, that he's cynical, that he's trying to. You. This is, he's just using, using this as the excuse to do what he wants. Again, I think a profound misunderstanding and that the truer way to look at it is that he believes or has come to believe or it has been so convenient that he has convinced himself that this is absolutely true. So this is a more serious condition and I'm a cynical guy and doing this, it is again demented. He has come to believe, he comes to believe in his own realities and that's a more serious situation than someone who is just exercising some meretricious strategy or greed.

[Joanna]

Or greed. Just exercising extreme deep levels of greed.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. There's a logic to that. This has departed logic.

[Joanna]

All right, so is he going to eventually put up a toll gate on the Strait of Hormuz? I mean, what's happening? I don't know if we're at war or not. We have a memo of understanding, but both sides are hurling things at each other. It's all a mess. And also it Feels like it's going to be one of those things that now just carries on going, that there are going to be.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, I think, I think you have it. I mean, I think that, that, that Iran has won. I mean, they made it about the Strait of Hormuz. So that's it. And we've been saying it's the, you know, the, the Hormuz War and they seems to have actually won. They control it. It's, I mean, there was a, there's an announcement today or, or, or a story about the possibility that, that Oman and Iran have gotten together and that they will together control it, impose this, this toll on the Strait, so, and split it, God knows how. But, but nevertheless, there was the Strait of Hormuz before this war began, was free passage.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Now it is not. Now it is controlled by Iran. That is what Donald Trump has achieved.

[Joanna]

Also. Terrifying to be on one of those tankers and not know whether or not you're going to get through.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that's the point. That's how you control the Strait of Hormuz.

[Joanna]

I understand that. But for the poor men, and I'm sure there are very, very few women, you know, actually running those tankers through, you're sort of taking your life in your hands.

[Michael Wolff]

That's why you don't go through. That is precisely the calculation that gives you control over the Strait of Hormuz. You don't know. It's existential unless you pay.

[Joanna]

And then if you pay, you get free. And it now looks like it's going to be $2 million a tanker for the toll. Donald Trump is not going to want to not be in on that $2 million.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, I don't know how he gets in. I mean, I mean, this is, this is, this is, you have to cast this larger. This is such a phenomenal fuck up, right? I mean, in every single way. And there's another aspect of this that basically, you know, this deal is going to free up an enormous amount of cash for the Iranians. I mean, all of the $300 billion, all of the sanctioned money is going to funnel back from them. So let's get this, the original goal here, and this really was the, originally, the paramount goal was to get rid of the regime, right? The result, the end product now of this effort is to finance the regime.

[Joanna]

It's crazy.

[Michael Wolff]

So the regime is crazy.

[Joanna]

There is more outcry about it.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, there's a fair amount of outcry, but it's also a complicated subject. And that's one of the interesting things that will be in terms of the midterm elections four months away. Is this forgotten by then?

[Joanna]

But it's not that complicated. Donald Trump ripped up the previous deal under the Obamas, the JCPOA. The minute he ripped it up in 2018, the Iranians started enriching uranium again. And then he created a much worse deal where we are, as you said, financing the new Iranian regime. The people didn't rise up as he'd called on them to do, and we're stuck now with tolls in the Strait of Hormuz, all of which had been played out by previous American presidencies. And they'd all resisted the siren call of Benjamin Netanyahu to go to war for Israel's bidding.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, absolutely. I mean, the tragedy is actually the low threshold of what is complicated in American politics. So that should not be complicated.

[Ryan]

One thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is how easy it is to go through life just assuming everything is fine until something isn't. I feel like so many doctor's visits end the same way. Everything looks fine.

[Joanna]

Drink more water.

[Ryan]

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[Ryan]

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[Joanna]

Can't you just slim it down to worst deal? Worst deal ever? Not best deal ever. Worst deal ever.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, we're just slimmed it down to that. Yes. Okay.

[Joanna]

Worst deal ever.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. But it actually has to be attached to the prices at the pump. At the pump?

[Joanna]

Well, the prices at the pump, the prices for fertilizer, the prices for food, everything is more expensive. When gas is more Expensive because you

[Michael Wolff]

have to move things around it just in four months. He now has four months for those prices to come down. Will they come down? I don't know.

[Joanna]

Well, the, the price at the pump has come down a little bit, but the other prices are going to be baked in for the next at least, I would think 18 months because everything's gone up. Plus there's inflation at four and a half percent. Even though he says he doesn't care about inflation price at the pump.

[Michael Wolff]

Everything else is built in and. Yes, and it creates an effect and creates a mood. But the pump is what everybody experiences.

[Joanna]

They see it said like a man who I don't think goes to the grocery store very much. I bet you go to the fancy grocery store in Amagan, so you go to Citarella and pick out nice fresh fish. But I bet your wife does the actual grocery store.

[Michael Wolff]

Actually, that's completely not true.

[Joanna]

Really?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. I go to the IGA and I go. I all of.

[Joanna]

Okay, how much is a pint of milk? How much is a pint of organic milk? Or not a pint? What are those? What is that, half a quart?

[Michael Wolff]

3:39.

[Joanna]

339. That's unbelievably cheap. You're not buying organic.

[Michael Wolff]

No, of course I'm not buying organic milk.

[Joanna]

You're buying organic milk. No, you've got children. You should be buying organic milk. You don't want. You don't want antibiotics and hormones in the milk. Can't believe you don't have organic milk.

[Michael Wolff]

God, you're so privileged.

[Joanna]

Well, organic eggs and organic milk.

[Michael Wolff]

This is.

[Joanna]

I can't believe you pay so little for your milk. That's impressive. It's impressive. I can't believe you don't have organic milk.

[Michael Wolff]

You don't go to the grocery store.

[Joanna]

I do go to the grocery store. I go to Instacart. That's an online groceries.

[Michael Wolff]

This is totally not true. This is appalling. You don't. And I'm sure you have. When was the last meal you cooked?

[Joanna]

Oh, I cook all the time.

[Michael Wolff]

Oh, you don't cook all the time.

[Joanna]

I do. And I just cook.

[Michael Wolff]

I've been to your house. You bring it in.

[Joanna]

Sometimes I cook. Sometimes I cook. You know what? I just month of cooking.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, we're now down to. I cook all the time, too. Sometimes I cook.

[Ryan]

Okay, all right.

[Joanna]

I do occasionally cook. I do occasionally.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, well, I cook every day.

[Joanna]

Do you though?

[Michael Wolff]

Not a single day passes.

[Joanna]

All right, so Iran's winning the battle of Hormuz. Donald Trump is losing the popular imagination at the moment, I think it's fair to say. And he's digging in on.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it's a catastrophe. I mean, he's literally looking at a catastrophe in every race, certainly in every poll, but in also every swing race. This could go down the drain for him like that. Literally on November 3rd, which is four months from now, everything could change, essentially. Donald Trump could go out of business.

[Joanna]

Well. And he could have a historic loss. Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that's what I mean.

[Joanna]

Right. The biggest loss ever. Biggest loss ever. People love the loss.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I mean, it is the end of. As a matter of fact, I've started to write this substack little substack digression column or whatever, whatever we call them called downfall, which is because I think that is very clearly what we are seeing in almost every aspect of this, his mind, his body, his policies and his popularity. So it's an emergency for him. What do you do? What do you do if you're Donald Trump and you are looking at the end of everything you theoretically have achieved

[Joanna]

and the Supreme Court has refused to side with him on E. Jean Carroll, so he's now officially a sex abuser. So we have a sex abuser in the White House.

[Michael Wolff]

So the midterms, four months away, what he has now doubled down on, I mean, he's not doubled down on any change in direction of his policies. He's not suddenly becoming a kinder Donald Trump. One thing you can say for Donald Trump is that a focus group is not at all times running in his head, as it is for so many Democrats. But. So he's looking at this. I can still win this. I can still eke out a victory here if I screw around with the election rules. And that is now also what he's become singularly focused on, obsessed about. So obsessed that basically he stopped the work of the United States Congress because it won't pass the law that he wants this.

[Joanna]

Save, builder, save, build, save.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, whatever. Which in effect creates a whole new series of hurdles for people to vote, which would theoretically, not necessarily, by the way, but theoretically help the Republican vote. Right, but the Congress isn't going to pass this. And they keep telling them we can't pass this because we don't have the votes to pass this. Never mind. Stop everything you have to do this. Pass. Get rid of the filibuster, then. No, no, we're never going to get rid of the filibuster, Mr. President. It doesn't matter. Obsessed. Obsessed. You know, in again, that demented kind of way.

[Joanna]

Right. Very fixed on it. And of course, it worked for him before when he denied the results of 2020. I mean, it worked for him as a kind of rallying cry for all his people. And everybody fell into line when he got reelected. I mean, it's astonishing. The people especially, well, obviously the Republicans who at the time said, you didn't win, sir. You lost the election, sir, who then circled back and said, you won the election, sir. Of course, you were cheated out of it. I mean, it's astonishing how many people with Ivy League educations, proper, you know, people that should have known better, pretend that he actually won. 20.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, and that, you know, that was a curious thing because I actually, I was. I was. Had begun writing a book about the election then and was kind of on the scene, talking about. That was actually a rich moment because.

[Joanna]

Was this landslide. Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

Because all of, you know, a lot of the Trump people who were out of jobs, you know, suddenly were talking. But literally at that moment, January 6th happened. And it was. I mean, the election happened, and everybody, the whole Trump White House was like, okay, we don't want any part of this denial. And then the crazies, Rudy Giuliani people came in. And then January 6th happened. And then you just thought. There was just that absolute moment when you thought, this is over. How could it not be anything but over? Every Republican leader in the Senate, you know, shaking their heads.

[Joanna]

Well, and some of them have been truly frightened by what happened on January, but.

[Michael Wolff]

But almost immediately thereafter was three days after January 6th. White House people said, let's. Okay, seems bad. Let's put a poll in the field. Let's put a poll in the field. And they put a poll in the field. I think X number of days, eight, nine days later, the poll came back showing yet an overwhelming popular support among Republicans for Donald Trump. And that almost immediately brought everybody, the general Republican leadership, any Republican office holders, back into the fold.

[Joanna]

But why would people take notice of that when he just lost the election?

[Michael Wolff]

Because he maintained that base with the Republican Party. So it's not Democrats who are suddenly saying that. It's Republicans who understood at that point that elemental thing. Donald Trump still controlled the Republican Party. So that has been, you know, that's this theme that you have to keep looking at here, that the Republican Party itself has no control over the Republican Party.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

It's Donald Trump who has that control.

[Joanna]

Well, and he appears to have control over the Supreme Court, though at least there were two decisions this week that didn't go his Way one was the Mississippi mail in voting, which allowed people to still mail in votes on election Day and count votes that arrived after election Day. Something that he's pointed to in California and said, oh, this points to fraud, even though no Republicans in California are saying it points to fraud. Might point to a slightly sloppy election process, but not to fraud. And then, of course, the refusal to allow him to fire Lisa Cook on the board of the Fed, which he tried to do because largely she was in line with Jerome Powell, not wanting to reduce interest rates. So he tried to elbow her out of there. And then, of course, this decision that they were not going to look at, readdressing the E. Jean Carroll case for $5 million.

[Michael Wolff]

But the larger thing was a victory for him, which is basically, he got the power, a vast expansion of power to fire almost anyone in the. Who works in the executive branch. So any agency that's controlled by the executive branch, and guess, at least traditionally, those agencies have had a sort of

[Joanna]

a multicompicated

[Michael Wolff]

level of independence. In other words, it wasn't easy to fire them. Now it is easy to fire them. Essentially, he's been given direct control. Not they exempted this out, direct control of the Fed, but direct control of all of these other agencies, which is one of the things from the beginning, from 2017, what he has wanted. This is, remember Steve Bannon talking about the war on the administrative state? This is what this is. He can just now declare victory on the. In the war on the administrative state, not victory in the war in Iran, but on the administrative state. So which is, I, you know, which is my belief that that's what the Supreme Court is doing, is threading this needle, that it is not for them, not, not an issue of, of constitutional law anymore. It's an issue of what we, what we have to give Donald Trump, what we can withhold from Donald Trump, what we have, what fealty we owe to Donald Trump. And they're doing this in a very, very careful basis, which is in itself corrupt.

[Joanna]

Right, okay. Well, we woke up this morning to Moscow receiving more drones.

[Michael Wolff]

They're not receiving more drones. They're being attacked by more drones.

[Joanna]

Okay, they're being attacked by more.

[Michael Wolff]

What they have to do is get more drones, but they don't have them.

[Joanna]

Okay, so Moscow, everybody, everybody, it turns

[Michael Wolff]

out, needs more drones.

[Joanna]

Okay, well, except Ukraine.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, Ukraine, the supplier of drones to the world.

[Joanna]

Exactly. So. And I'm not calling it the Ukraine anymore, it's just Ukraine very pleased with that development. Ukraine's coming out on top at the moment?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, one of the interesting things, I think they certainly are, and one of the interesting things from the inside Trump's head view is that he picked wrong. He picked the wrong side. I mean, which is kind of another thing you would think that he would be held to account for. Well, and against all the advice, you're a loser. You pick the losing side.

[Joanna]

And against all the advice of his advisors, you know, Lindsey Graham.

[Michael Wolff]

Well,

[Joanna]

how could he even say, what is his obsession with Russia? Why does he want to be friendly with Putin? I understand the strongman thing, but none of this makes sense. Why would you, as Giorgia Maloney said, why would you treat your allies like this? Why are you sucking up to Putin and Xi and not being more friendly to your allies? Why aren't you supporting Europe?

[Michael Wolff]

He looks at a map and he sees Russia, that's big, all that land frozen, all that land, Ukraine, much smaller. I'm going to go with the big guy and I swear to God that's what he did. This is the level of analysis that occurs here. I mean, again, this kind of thing that no one, no, we don't have the capacity to appreciate how phenomenally stupid Donald Trump is. And it's not just stupid, it's how phenomenally incurious, how phenomenally uninterested in any information, unable really to take in any information.

[Joanna]

Well, and also especially historical information. Like there's no context for what he does.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, to say the very least.

[Joanna]

Right, okay.

[Michael Wolff]

And would be resentful about, about there having to be that context.

[Joanna]

So how does he, what happens to, to Russia and Ukraine at this point? I mean, I know that Europe is very anxious about Europe.

[Michael Wolff]

That I can't tell you.

[Joanna]

You can't? Oh, I thought you were going to. I thought.

[Michael Wolff]

But, you know, I think we can. I mean, the truth is that this is, this is complicated. And everything in this war, which is, you know, which is pretty interesting, I suppose it's like all wars, but this seems to happen in a much speeded, speeded up sense that there's an advantage and it's a technological advantage, basically. And then it exists until the other side compensates and, and comes to parity with that advantage.

[Joanna]

But they haven't got there yet. Russia's taking so long.

[Michael Wolff]

No, well, they haven't. I mean, they have at several points during the, this has been going on for four plus years. And at several points they actually, that they actually have. I mean, this is, I mean, the, the pattern of this war is, is, is Ukraine manages to come out to secure an advantage. And then Russia meets that advantage, and then it goes into a stalemate until the Ukrainians come up with an additional advantage. So how long this goes on, I mean, I think the Ukrainian hope that that there. That the Russians are going to have to say, you know, okay, let's figure out a way out of this. I mean, almost a million Russians have been casualties of this war. So it certainly does seem that at some point, Putin is in trouble. Now, remarkably, he has not been in that much trouble to date and still may not be in that much trouble in the Trump narrative. It would have been so easy for him to have, to have to have seen if he can see anything besides big, small on the map, that the Ukrainians were, that this would be a. It would have vastly redounded, to his credit, to have been on the side of the little guys.

[Joanna]

Well, and to have, and to have managed to bring about the peace deal he promised he would bring on his first day in office. Right, but by backing the wrong side.

[Michael Wolff]

No, you remember in the, and remember when Zelensky shows up in the Oval Office, he says, you know, he said, you know, you don't have any cards. You don't have the cards.

[Joanna]

And he said, I don't have the cards.

[Michael Wolff]

They had all the cards.

[Joanna]

Yeah. It's still my favorite joke when he says that about the Iranians. You don't have any cards. And they have the straight of Hormuz. Such a good line. Such. Not my line. I've found it somewhere, but it's a very good one. All right, so we're recording this on Tuesday morning, and we've just got a news flash that the Supreme Court have struck down Trump's executive order demanding end to birthright citizenship, something that's enshrined in the Constitution. And yet it's still a 6:3 decision.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, I don't think that there was anyone who thought this would go in any other direction.

[Joanna]

No, neither. No, I think that's right. But I'm still staggered that three justices dissented. You know, there's these Gorsuch, Alito, and I think Clarence Thomas. It must be Clarence Thomas.

[Michael Wolff]

Alito And Thomas are 100% Trump. 100%. Not nothing.

[Joanna]

Well, they're even further to the right of Trump, I think.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well.

[Joanna]

Well, they're just, they're conspiracy theorists almost at this point.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, yeah. And they're, I mean, they're old and they're racist and, and they're, it's just,

[Joanna]

they fly that flag.

[Michael Wolff]

It doesn't make Any difference? So two people, you can just put them aside. They don't, they don't really count in a, in a kind of, in a kind of logic that you're, you're asking for some logic here.

[Joanna]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

They don't count. So Gorsuch, I don't know what the. I have, I haven't read the.

[Joanna]

Well, it's literally just come out. So we're trying to Marshal.

[Michael Wolff]

So I would say six to three in this, in this context is. Is unanimous a recognition that, that this

[Joanna]

was an absolutely lunatic thing to bring.

[Michael Wolff]

Absolutely ridiculous. And I don't think the Trump people thought that this was anything else. But this is. This is performative.

[Joanna]

Yeah. Like having. Yeah, it's performative. Okay. Well, happily, it's been struck down. Cause how on earth would you enforce it? It's utterly unenforceable.

[Michael Wolff]

It's just. It was never gonna happen. Performative.

[Joanna]

Can we talk about the most attractive couple in politics? The Newsoms, who are made to go to the White House, aren't they? I mean, his hair, her hair. They are of deep Bravo type. Bravo. The channel fabulosity.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. I was at the fateful Biden debate in

[Joanna]

Atlanta.

[Michael Wolff]

I think it was in Atlanta. Yes, I certainly was there. Yes. One of them.

[Joanna]

You mean the one where Biden failed to answer and it caused the start of all our problems?

[Michael Wolff]

That was the thing that, I mean, that was kind of extraordinary. Biden did this debate, and then after all of the surrogates come out on the floor and you wait for them, and the Republicans came out and the Democrats didn't come out because they had no idea what to say. And then finally they came out in a scrum around Newsom. I mean, he was. They were kind of all. And what you saw and what you focused on was his hair. First thing, he's very tall and the hair is kind of extraordinary. And you really said, okay, this is. If being the President of the United States is at least one factor, is about what kind of hair you have, then he might have a very good shot at this.

[Joanna]

So what we heard last week from Gavin Newsom was that Trump has started investigations into him. This is politically motivated, obviously, according to Newsom.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, I think it turns out that this investigation began almost a year. Something was somewhat about a year ago in a U.S. attorney's office. Now, you know, Trump obviously controls the Justice Department and has enormous sway with US Attorneys, but apparently. So this may or may not be Trump directly. Trump related. Apparently there was a whistleblower involved and they started an investigation in the U.S. attorney's office, I assume, in California.

[Joanna]

And this is to do with how Gavin Newsom raises money and it's basically pay for play. That's the accusation that he receives. Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I mean, there's a good Wall Street Journal article. Well, let me. This is, this is an article by the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal, which is particularly tends to, not tends to almost always is a. Takes a Republican and conservative voice, but

[Joanna]

although not necessarily pro Trump voice, we should point out they've been a robust opposition, actually, at the Journal, both the news pages and it turns out the

[Michael Wolff]

Sometimes, sometimes, sometimes the, the, the editorial page, at any rate, it says, reads. For years, the governor has leveraged his power to get businesses to cough up cash for progressive causes. Two beneficiaries are nonprofits founded by his wife, Jennifer Siebel, never a good look. The representation project in the California Partners Project. She has collected more than $1.9 million in compensation from the former. So, so it's not only her organizations, but she's getting paid. The question is, on what basis do you raise this money?

[Joanna]

Well, they're called the tested payments.

[Michael Wolff]

And this may not be, you can probably argue, which they will certainly argue, that this is not illegal at all. It is, though, as the, this is politics. And so theoretically it is the appearance of conflict that we seek to avoid. That may be an old and discarded point of view. Donald Trump wiped it away. The appearances don't matter anymore. But it also could mean that Gavin Newsom, who is the front runner for the Democratic nomination in 2028, not that he will remain the front runner, but certainly at this point, this point could be knocked out by something like this.

[Joanna]

Well, it also says that he's raised, I mean, the total amount he's raised since 2011 is 350 million.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Joanna]

Which according to the Journal, has poured in since he became governor in 2019. That's a lot. 350 million.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Joanna]

No hested payments there. And they're legal, but they're not seemly.

[Michael Wolff]

And, and maybe they're not. I mean, obviously investigation has been, obviously there are some questions about the legality of this.

[Joanna]

Right. Or there's a mischievous whistleblower and it's going to cause him damage.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. But these kinds of things, and we should start to log these kinds of. These kinds of things because it's highly relevant to 2028.

[Joanna]

And what Gavin Newsom has done has leaned in to the Trump way of handling it, which is to say, they're coming after me. It's a witch hunt and putting it center stage as opposed to putting it in the background and telling people not to worry about it. So he's actually campaigning on this now.

[Michael Wolff]

Fascinating.

[Joanna]

We will continue to.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, and I think that. I mean, this is the kind of. This kind of thing is actually a test of your mettle for getting the nomination.

[Joanna]

Right. This is why you.

[Michael Wolff]

In other words. Yes. In order to be the person who should get the nomination. Then you see if you can survive this kind of stuff.

[Joanna]

Yep. And do you think he's going to survive it? I think he's thriving on it.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. The questions are, should he survive it? And then will he survive it?

[Joanna]

Okay, fair, fair. Should he survive it? And will he survive it? All right. You mentioned hair as a candidate and we have a surprise for you. Who is this man with all the hair?

[Michael Wolff]

Long ago, this is.

[Joanna]

Come on. I would never in a million years have thought that this was your hair. I would never. I imagine that you would have very bushy hair. Look at this. This is magnificent hair. For those who aren't watching us, for those who are actually listening to this, what we have found is. I guess. Is this your high school yearbook?

[Michael Wolff]

It is.

[Joanna]

It's Michael. It's a picture of Michael. A photo from his high school yearbook in which his hair is magnificent. It's shiny, it's straight. It's curled in basically a bob just behind your ear. And then there is a description of you. Can we read the description? Arguing a point with Mr. Kerner in English. Mike Wolfe, student council president. You swapped Student council president. Concerned with the problems of the school. Concerned the cities. A serious student of history, philosophy. His dazzling rhetoric leading to victory in debates, discussions. Mike Wolf, introverted but serious and with fabulous hair. That is election worthy hair. You could win elections on that hair. On its own. I've seen that happen.

[Michael Wolff]

You see, but that's the problem with elections. You have to be able to continue the hair until you are of age. The elect, we could.

[Joanna]

Should I get a hairpiece for you? I would just like to see what it looks like. I mean, it's magnificent hair. It actually, for the first time made me think about what it's like losing your hair.

[Michael Wolff]

I was the best day of my life. It took a lot to keep that hair. And you know, you had to tend that hair.

[Joanna]

Yeah. This hair, no tending. Did you actually make a decision to just shave it or at some point?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Joanna]

I feel like ever since I've known you, you've not had any hair.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I haven't. Had hair for decades. Decades.

[Joanna]

Right. Now, I remember Scott Galloway saying it was a huge relief when he got rid of his hair. What have ever known you with hair? How old were you when you started getting Bald?

[Michael Wolff]

In my 30s.

[Joanna]

Huh. So your kids cannot remember you with hair?

[Michael Wolff]

No.

[Joanna]

Fascinating. Anyway, this is election worthy hair. No wonder you were.

[Michael Wolff]

You think I'm handsome?

[Joanna]

Of course you're handsome.

[Ryan]

No wonder you were.

[Joanna]

School. You won the school presidency because of your hair. It's a really underestimated thing in politics. Have we ever had a bald president?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, Eisenhower was not a guy with a lot of hair, but

[Joanna]

he had some hair

[Michael Wolff]

that was a real comb over.

[Joanna]

It was a comb over.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, and it was a.

[Joanna]

And television was less of a thing then. Yeah, television was less of a thing. Anyway, Gavin Newsom's got fabulous hair. His wife's got fabulous hair. His behested payments are legal, according to the Wall Street Journal, and he says he's being investigated because Donald Trump has launched a witch hunt against him because he knows that Gavin might win.

[Michael Wolff]

You know who is getting a surge of attention is Andy Beshear.

[Joanna]

Andy Beshear is never going to be president. The man speaks in policy paragraphs.

[Michael Wolff]

I had dinner with him last summer in the Hamptons, of course, where everybody shows up. All Democrats show up to raise money.

[Joanna]

I think some Republicans show up, but the Republicans stay in Southampton.

[Michael Wolff]

Southampton, yes.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

The Democrats. This is strictly East Hampton.

[Joanna]

Wayne Scott and East Hampton and very much Sagar.

[Michael Wolff]

And he was, you know, I thought it was, you know, extremely nice guy and extremely intelligent governor of a red state. All of this as dull as you could possibly be.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, it was the people at this. There were only a few people at this dinner, but everybody was propping their eyes up.

[Joanna]

Well, he's milquetoast, isn't he? I mean, he's governor of Kentucky, so red state. That's impressive that he's. He's done that. But he doesn't have the charisma, I think, to be president in the age of social media and everything else.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, a conversation that will continue.

[Joanna]

Bit of a stray there. Poor old Andy Bashir caught a stray from our conversation. However, we will be back, and we'll be back on Thursday. We're not going away unless Donald Trump launches a witch hunt into us.

[Michael Wolff]

I think he has launched one into me.

[Joanna]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

Oh, I have.

[Joanna]

Do you have an update on where you are with his wife?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, but let's save that until. For Thursday.

[Joanna]

Okay, so Thursday we'll be back we'll talk about the update in Michael's case, suing the First Lady. And if you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast and you get all sorts of special perks for membership, including and especially if you join the either BE Beast Tier level or the Beast Friend. Friend of the Beast.

[Michael Wolff]

Friend of the Beast.

[Joanna]

Friend of the Beast.

[Michael Wolff]

Thank you, Ryan, John, Heather, Rachel and Neil.

[Ryan]

So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.