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- [00:00]
A
This enterprise is coming apart. Donald Trump wants to be Donald Trump. And that becomes clearer and clearer, which means that the enterprise itself gets weaker and weaker. So we're dealing with these two things, the power that he has and the power that he is losing on a daily basis.
- [00:22]
B
Michael. Joanna, how are you?
- [00:25]
A
Good, good. But I, and I have an observation. I think, and it's, it is, this has been more and more, I've more and more understood this and appreciated this, and I think it's an important moment. It's a moment of demarcation and it's a. Two things can be true at the same time moment. Trump is going to continue to be mendacious and dangerous and damaging to all kinds of things. But at the same time, very clearly, as clearly as can possibly be, this enterprise, this Trump enterprise is coming apart. And I think we're right at the center, we're right at the beginning of this, in which we will see this progress on an almost day by day basis. And I guess this is good news, but it is more to the point for us an important moment in this story.
- [01:32]
B
Okay, so what are the leading indicators? I mean, the last two weeks in particular have been rough for him. But what are you seeing as the,
- [01:38]
A
I mean, I think the fact that he cannot extricate himself from this war is a thing that will, that will finish him off in the end. But then I think also the reaction to that, the way that has weakened him and, and now for Congress to have basically said, hey, we're gonna take back our power here, I mean, the Republican Congress that has for almost now 10 years bent to his will, is saying, hey, hey, we're not doing this. And that was a devastating vote yesterday or the day before, in which Congress was based, I guess yesterday has basically, we're going to take the war powers back here. They belong to us. We are taking them back. And that together then with just the other day in which they dug in their heels on his $1.8 billion slush fund. And then I think this goes into a broader territory and it all sort of brings this together of his falling poll numbers, the fact that he is in trouble on all of the foundational policies of his administration, that he could fix the economy, that immigration was his issue, the issue that was fueling him instead of the issue that is causing him now so many problems with his base, the healthcare issues also causing him problems. It's one problem after another after another that he cannot surmount. Including central to this, of course, is the war.
- [03:37]
B
Yeah. So interesting. I was at an event on Wednesday night for Prof. G Markets. They were doing a tour and their surprise guest was Hillary Clinton. And of course, she got a huge standing ovation in the room. And she talked about Netanyahu trying to exert pressure to get them to attack Iran and to remove the leadership and the claims that he's obviously made to Donald Trump that the Iranian people would rise up. And she just described how they, what is it called? Red teamed it out. I don't know if it's red team. Well, they're war planning it out game. What is it? War gaming it out. And of course, the Strait of Hormuz comes up all the time and they just figured it wasn't worth it. They couldn't, they couldn't make it work.
- [04:28]
A
Who is they? I'm just confusing the Obama administration.
- [04:31]
B
So she's talking about how they're trying to figure out the Iranian deal and Netanyahu is saying, you should just invade. You should just invade. And they're looking at all kind of ways of dealing with Iran. And then yesterday I interviewed Ben Rhodes, who of course was very involved in the Iranian deal and actually led the negotiations for Cuba because he has a new book out called all we say We Drop it Tomorrow, the interview tomorrow, and he talks very specifically about the pressure Israel was trying to apply to the US and how they withstood it. And it's so fascinating to think of Donald Trump being played so easily by Netanyahu and then listening to what it was actually like creating those Iranian negotiations and all the other international players who were involved and the time it took and the idea that Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner can saunter in there as deal guys, the arrogance of it, the foolishness of it just seems to be sinking Donald Trump. And I'm just curious at this point, Michael, because you always make this point that Trump blames people. He knows that he's vulnerable. Who is he going to blame for Iran?
- [05:44]
A
Well, I think. But let's just step back before we get to that because I think it is important and fun to speculate who's going to get the blame. But there was a story, I think in the Times the other day about that they had, within the Pentagon, they had war gained this out in the Strait of Hormuz, which was always a problem there. It was. So this was a known, known the Strait of Hormuz. If we go to war, if there is a confrontation with Iran, the Strait moves could be a big problem. And Trump was told this apparently again and again. And again this came up and the Times said that this was unheeded by him in Times language, unheeded. And this again goes to one of those themes of, of the Trump administration and Trump leadership. He just doesn't, and we have come back to this many, many times, he just doesn't listen. So it's not that it is unheeded, when unheeded means he was told this and he decided that was not important, rightly or wrongly, that he made a strategic decision effectively even if it were wrong. But the problem is much larger than, and goes to a much deeper question of his confidence. He just doesn't listen. So he doesn't hear it. It's not that he ignored it, it's that he doesn't hear it because he doesn't listen to anything. So here is this man who has gone to war and he has listened to. Well, actually he listened to the one thing that he should not have listened to, which was Bibi Netanyahu convincing him that this was the right thing to do. Essentially Bibi said you can be a winner. And it's interesting because in the gaming out how the Strait of Hormuz might play, essentially he was being told you could be a loser. And that's the kind of thing he just doesn't listen to, just by blocks it out.
- [08:19]
B
Oh, that's a brilliant observation. Of course that he might lose that. And that just doesn't compute. He doesn't even want it. He doesn't want the words floating around the room.
- [08:30]
A
So again, we're at this incompetence. I mean, yes, Trump is, is the, the most mendacious president we have ever had. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, all of that. But the other thing and, and it may be more important and it may be, and it may be the thing that causes him much more grief is that he's incompetent. I mean just, just the most basic level of, of the details. You have to be able to absorb the connections you have to, have to make the executive function. You have to apply. He can't. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com
- [09:27]
B
Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate, first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms@mintmobile.com but also, it requires him taking the job seriously, and he doesn't do that either. I mean, it's as if he just is on the surface of it, as if he enjoys playing, as if he loves all the riding around in the Beast and all the attention. And we've talked before about how his addiction is to attention.
- [10:01]
A
What you're saying there, and that's very much on point, is Trump's presidency is about him. It's about who he is, it's about his brand, it's about his message, it's about whatever comes from him. And it's, again, it's a broadcast issue. He can't take any information in. It's just all. It's just information coming out, blah, blah, blah, blah, endlessly.
- [10:30]
B
Okay, so what's inside his head now, given that things aren't going as planned? Everything he planned is falling apart.
- [10:41]
A
You're right. It's. Who's going to be blamed? No, I just think it's. I think we got a note that poor Marco Rubio, poor little Marco was before Congress saying that the war is over, the war is over. It's done. Just as the Iranians are bombing Kuwait.
- [11:06]
B
Right. And as the strait remains closed, and we're now beginning to see remarkable pictures of all these tankers stuck in the Gulf. They're just stuck there, and it's going to take months to get them out, even when they unlock the Strait of Hormuz. And I think, I mean, the fascinating thing is that nobody around Trump is able to penetrate, as you say, his inability to listen.
- [11:34]
A
This has always been true. And just to go back to, you know, in those, in the early days of the first Trump White House, when I was on the scene, pretty ubiquitously on the scene, and when everybody in the White House was trying to figure out who this guy was, they didn't know him. I mean, he didn't really have any presence in the, in, in, in Washington or in the political culture. I think, as a matter of fact, at some point, Trump told me that before he got to the White House, he had only ever spent, like, 12 nights in Washington. Anyway. He knew nobody and nobody knew him. And they're trying to figure this out. And so in these, as the weeks roll on and everybody becomes more and more kind of puzzled by, by who he is and how he operates, you know, they would say, you know, it's a big. It's a big problem because he doesn't read anything. You know, in this information intensive job, he really reads nothing. And so, you know, how do you get information to him? And then they would pause and they said, and that's compounded by the fact that he doesn't listen. So literally there was no way to get him any information. And that has, not only has that not changed, but that has gotten worse.
- [13:05]
B
It's like he's surrounded by almost by tinfoil. He's covered in a sort of metaphorical tinfoil that everything is beamed off him. Nothing is coming in. Well, let's talk about Rubio's congressional testimony. I mean, there was a fantastic moment when Ted, New from California, asked him if he'd ever seen Donald Trump asleep in cabinet meetings. And Marco Rubio, of course, says, no, I haven't. Of course not. The President doesn't do that. And then Ted Lieu said, sir, you have just lied to Congress. And then they played two pieces of video where Donald Trump of a cabinet meeting where Donald Trump appears to be fast asleep as Marco Rubio is talking. I mean, it was just a magical piece of congressional testimony. Ted Lieu as, what was it? What was it the guy, Tony decouple said about Marco Rubio on his second CBS broadcast? Sir, we salute you as Florida man. Sir. Mr. Liu, we. Or Congressman Liu, we salute you as California man.
- [14:12]
A
Ah, California. We should get to that.
- [14:15]
B
Well, we will definitely get to California, but do you have any more thoughts on does Marco get the blame for the war?
- [14:21]
A
No. Well, this is, again, you have to understand this in the Global Trump sense, everybody gets the blame. It's just the question of who's up. And even within the Trump circle, the aides acknowledge this. It's just my turn. And that will happen here. I mean, Marco Rubio, I'd say, is in his, in his maximal position now. And then he will be certainly brought down by this. And given everybody who is in a position, a public position regarding the war will be blamed, except the person who is in the highest public position regarding the war, who is Donald Trump who will not accept any of the blame.
- [15:15]
B
And yet it was his decision to do it, despite the fact that everybody laid out the very clear reasons why this could be complicated for the states and lead it into the forever war that he claimed he didn't want. Just the foolishness of it. And, and also the sort of strength that they've unwittingly handed to Iran.
- [15:36]
A
No, and, and who, who now on a day by day basis is basically trolling Donald Trump. You know, what was that those that Kuwait attack about, it's kind of saying, na, na, na, na, na to Donald Trump, which they do again and again and again. They keep moving the goalposts, moving it, moving it. Here's an agreement. Yes, we might take that. No, but add this. You have to give us whatever.
- [16:04]
B
Well, and then there was the story that leaked, and there were various Republicans saying, oh, it's shocking. This story's leaked. We must find the leaker. But one couldn't help thinking it was probably Donald Trump who'd leaked the story himself about the expletive laden conversation he had with Netanyahu, where he was shouting at Netanyahu, apparently using the F word. Just saying, this is ridiculous. You've got to stop bombing Lebanon. You're making it really difficult for me. So it felt like he was trying to leak a story showing he was trying to be strong with Netanyahu, who's also clearly got the upper hand here. I mean, Trump looks ridiculous squeezed between Iran and Netanyahu. He's disappearing.
- [16:45]
A
Right. Well, just let me again say, in charting this story, the point of demarcation, this enterprise is coming apart.
- [16:55]
B
The enterprise is coming apart. So should people be jumping ship at this point? If you're JD Vance, should you be thinking, oh, I need to resign, I need to get away from this.
- [17:04]
A
No, no, no. I mean, vice presidents never resign. That's ridiculous. And he is. I mean, J.D. vance has no alternative but to make the best of it and to hope being the vice President of the United States, just that fact will propel him into a moment when reposition, remake, restate who he is. I mean, I don't think that that's going to happen. I think he's going to go down with this ship, but he can't get off it.
- [17:38]
B
He can't get off it like so many of those poor merchant seamen in the middle of the Persian Gulf right now, and there are thousands of them dying to see their families again, trying to get fresh food. All of it. What a calamity and a totally unnecessary.
- [17:52]
A
You know, there is a greater sense of. I was going to say transparency, but there's always been transparency with Donald Trump. But through the window, everything that's going on is so chaotic and confusing. You don't know what it means. But I think more and more now, what we get is a sense of clarity. We do know what it means. We do know the Donald Trump playbook. We do know what he's going to do. We do know why he's. He's going to do it. And, and it's not. And it's, It's. It stands out. Its meaning is glaring and obvious. You know, so this, this selection of Bill Pulte, of all people, to run as Director of National Intelligence is, you know, and I think at some point you might have. You might have said, okay, well, he has something in mind there. Maybe it's bad stuff in mind, but at least it's. Clearly, he has something in mind, wants a tough guy in the job, or he's there because he values loyalty. There's this thing that people say in politics as though it's actually often as though it's a virtue. He values loyalty above. Above everything else. But I think we now see that's not what's going on here.
- [19:24]
B
What do you mean, what is going on? He's just desperate. He's putting someone in as acting because it's unlikely he'll get through Senate confirmation.
- [19:32]
A
I was talking to a Trump guy, someone I regard as basically a decent sort about this, and I was asking, how can he hire these people? And this person replied, to show that he can. So that is, again, we're back to that thing. It's all about him. It's all about the message that he's sending. So when he appoints these totally unfit people, it's a message of control and contempt for rules and standards. That's the message that he wants to send. You know, again, everything in Trump world is about who he is. That's the message. There's this other guy he appointed, too, to a significant Defense Department post. This Elias Irizarry, I think is his name. And his singular qualifications seems to have been that he was convicted. He was a January 6th conviction.
- [20:42]
B
Right. There's a picture of him on the top of Congress, I think, with a huge poll. Clearly, it couldn't be more inappropriate to put him in charge of. I think he's in charge of trying to extricate people if they get stuck in difficult situations. Right. I mean, it's actually a very responsible job. I mean, he appeared to be remorseful after January 6, said it was a terrible mistake, and he went back and forth, finished at the Citadel Military College. And the judge who sentenced him seemed to believe him because I think she wrote a reference for him to go back to college and graduate, which he did.
- [21:27]
A
But why would you, if you're Donald
- [21:29]
B
Trump, of all the people in the world. Right.
- [21:31]
A
Yes. And again, the. The message is, I don't care. The message is fuck you. And I think that, that, that is elemental to how he sees his administration. And how he staffs his administration. I can appoint this person because I can.
- [21:53]
B
But, Michael, how do we then get through if it's this bad, 18 months in, how do we survive the next two and a half years? I mean, how is this possible with these uttering crisis?
- [22:07]
A
I don't know the answer, but I do know. I mean, I think you have to look at this, that two things are happening at the same time. Donald Trump is not changing. And partly the two things are happening at the same time. They're very related here. Donald Trump is not changing. Donald Trump can't change. Donald Trump can't fix the situation that he's in. Donald Trump doesn't want to. Donald Trump wants to be Donald Trump. And that becomes clearer and clearer, which means that the enterprise itself gets weaker and weaker and is in fact falling apart. So we're dealing with these two things. Donald Trump. Donald Trump and the power that he has and Donald Trump and the power that he is losing on a daily
- [22:52]
B
basis and America's losing with it. Can we just talk for a second about not what's in his head, but what's on his head? In the medical information that came out after his third visit to Walter Reed Hospital, his third visit, we should point out, in 13 months, he stopped apparently taking the hair loss drug Propecia. I feel like this could be significant.
- [23:21]
A
Well, it could be significant if suddenly, I mean, I can't even imagine this. I mean, let's be clear. I mean, it's not as if he has taken the hair loss drug and that has given him hair. He has no hair. He is a bald man.
- [23:37]
B
Is he totally bald? Does he have actually bits round?
- [23:40]
A
But does he have like male pattern baldness?
- [23:43]
B
And didn't he have a scalp reduction? Jeffrey Epstein told you he'd had a scalp reduction.
- [23:47]
A
He did, he did. And there's a point in, I think in one of my books, I think in Fire and Fury, where Ivanka is describing his hair routine and how he pulls it up and how he does. He wouldn't let anyone do it. And it's this careful construction of one of the most complicated comb overs in the long history of comb overs. Actually, Donald Trump's comb over is pretty much the only one left from the long history of comb overs.
- [24:26]
B
But I'm just asking, does he have like a fringe of actual hair that you can tie the stuff onto?
- [24:32]
A
Male pattern baldness is the top is bald and you continue to have hair growing on the sides of your. Yes.
- [24:44]
B
Right. So. Well, anyway, he stopped taking Propecia I wonder if it's got unpleasant side effects. It must have. Maybe that's what he stopped. And it's also his hair seems to have changed a lot more recently. It definitely looks thinner and we've had some gray and even purple rinse days. And then it goes back to its golden color or as one of our commenters said, mouldy hay, the sort of appearance of moldy hay, which I still think is the best description for Donald Trump's hair.
- [25:16]
A
And let's not discount the importance of hair in, well, it's the United States presidency in general, but this particular hair to this administration. Donald Trump exists arguably because of his hair. And there's a great. One of my favorite passages in Stormy Daniels book where she asks him, they're lying together, I believe, in the bungalow at the Beverly Hills Hotel. But I could be wrong on this.
- [25:50]
B
Was this when they met at the celebrity golf weekend? Was this.
- [25:54]
A
Well, that was in Reno. And then I think that there was a subsequent. I'm. Don't hold me to the.
- [26:07]
B
Don't quote your.
- [26:08]
A
Yes to the. To the precise interactions. Except this conversation is. I am very clear on. Because how could one forget it? In which she asks him about his hair and he tells her and he admits that it looks slightly ridiculous, but he said he always had a lot of hair and he was always proud of his hair. And then he started to lose his hair. So he started to do it like this and started to color it like this. And then it became the thing that he was known for, which he liked. And then it became, you know, and he describes it became a branding device for him. And when I read this, I thought, my God, you know, the guide has some level of self awareness. Who knew, right?
- [26:58]
B
Who knew? Well, anyway, for whatever reason he stopped taking it. And I will by next, by Saturday's episode will look up the side effects and see what they are because there must be a reason why he stopped taking it. And Ness, the reason he hasn't been in public for the last four days, five days is that he's having a hair transplant, which I suppose is possible.
- [27:19]
A
Yeah, no, I don't think that that's possible. I mean, I think that that's. I think you're either a hair transplant guy or a comb over guy.
- [27:28]
B
Interesting. And you're neither. You're proudly neither.
- [27:32]
A
Or you're. Yes. Or you're the modern version, which is you get rid of all your hair.
- [27:37]
B
Yep.
- [27:38]
A
Yes.
- [27:38]
B
Okay. So should we move on? And I think we should to CBS. I think you have strong feelings about 60 Minutes?
- [27:47]
A
Yeah, well, I think everybody seems to have strong feelings about 60 Minutes. I mean, the, the, the new management of, of cbs. What's the. The CBS has been bought by the Ellison family. It's actually Paramount. Paramount, which owns cbs, has been bought by the Ellison family. And that includes Paramount Studios and the multitude of cable stations that they own. And they are now in the process of adding to that HBO and Warner Brothers and CNN and all those cable stations. And this is because the Ellison family has supported Donald Trump and they've now been able to buy much of American media because Donald Trump, big surprise, is supporting them. And this also includes, of course, 60 minutes. 60 minutes is the most prestigious news show on, on network television, probably on cable television too. It's been on the air for Jesus, it seems to me, for generations and generations.
- [29:07]
B
It's an American institution, I think it's fair to say.
- [29:10]
A
So. They have. So the Ellison. So David Ellison. So this is one of the great Nepo baby adventures. So David Ellison is the guy, the son of Larry Ellison, who is now running all of these media companies. And David Ellison has no experience in television. And then in turn, he hired a woman by the name of Bari Weiss, who has no experience in television. And she then hired the other day a guy by the name of Nick Bilton, who has also no experience in television. And together all of these people have fired all of the people at 60 Minutes who have experience in television. And that has caused, well, a kerfluffle to say the least. And one of the leading correspondents, Scott Pelley, who has been there for it would seem like generations, spoke up and said, you have no experience in television. And so he got fired for that. So, and there are a couple of interesting questions here. So 60 minutes, which I regard as possibly the most boring show you could ever watch. I know there are many, many people who swear by 60 Minutes and that is their kind of pillar of earnestness and reliability in this world. As a matter of fact, there are so many people who continue to believe, believe this. So 60 Minutes is profitable for the company and continues to be prestigious for the company. So why would this new group of people go after 60 minutes? What could they possibly hope to gain by doing this?
- [31:14]
B
Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Because behind every headline is a bottom line, whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings. There's a money side to every story. And when you see the money side, you understand what others miss. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now@bloomberg.com do they go after it? Because as someone just said about Donald Trump. Because they can. Because they're giddy with power. I mean, there is.
- [31:48]
A
Well, yeah, yes, they might. Yes, obviously. I mean, there's a kind of thing. So the world, you can kind of construct the world. The previous world was a world run by arrogant people with experience. And now the new world with Donald Trump as the poster child for this is a world of arrogant people run. Is a world run by arrogant people without experience. And that's certainly what's going on at CBS or something more thought out and strategic, which is that we gotta offer something to Donald Trump.
- [32:30]
B
Right. Well, let's talk about that. Because of course, 60 Minutes ran interviews with Donald Trump. It also ran an interview with Kamala Harris, which Trump then he sued CBS because he said that they had altered the interview and had been edited between the trailer advertising the show and the actual interview that they did. And he sued.
- [32:56]
A
Yeah, no, he hates 60 Minutes, among those kinds of things that he hates CNN, you know, the whole media list. I am occasionally on that media list and we are occasionally on that media list of things that he hates. But in terms of, of. So to make the Ellisons, the deals that the Ellisons have done, which are kind of extraordinary, that they now monopolize so much of the media business, they did with the support and because of the support of Donald Trump. Now Donald Trump, as we know, is a very transactional guy. It's like, what can you give me? I'll give you this. What can you give me? And if I were these people and the cost was 60 minutes, well, you know, I mean, it's the news division. They don't really care about news. They're not really doing this for the news to support the integrity of news. They buying these media companies to be in the entertainment business.
- [34:07]
B
We just have to remind people. David Ellison's father, Larry Ellison, was the founder of Oracle. Oracle now has a huge part of TikTok, which is arguably the most successful social media company in America. Obviously it was China. Chinese. There was a bipartisan vote to actually ban it. And the compromise was that it would have American ownership. And guess who gets to have shares in it? Larry Ellison.
- [34:34]
A
Right. And he's worth a couple of hundred billion dollars. So it's the only people, I think at this point actually who would buy media companies are people who can do it on a semi non economic basis.
- [34:45]
B
But there must be, I mean, it's so fascinating how much internal chaos there must be at CBS News following Bari Weiss's arrival. And I think George Cheeks, the CEO, had said, said, don't go after 60 minutes. Nothing to be gained by going after 60 minutes. And of course they went after it. And I think she does have that sort of swaggering founder mentality that works for something like the Free Press, the newsletter that she launched largely on the back of it being pro Israel at a time where people were being increasingly anti Semitic. And there, you know, with a startup, you can fire people, you can hire people, you can do what you want. You don't have a big pesky HR department hanging over you. You're the boss, Everybody's terrified of you. It's not like that at somewhere like cbs, which is a big tank, which is full of people bubbling with the sanctimony of what it means to be at CBS News. So I think it's a culture clash as well as a big suck up to Donald Trump and David Ellison, an inheritocrat. I mean, sitting there, the guy just clearly wants to make movies. And now he's lumbered with this thing which is taking him down too reputationally. I mean, if he's looking for his father's pleasure, he can't feel good about this. I mean, it makes him look to be a fool.
- [36:11]
A
No. And these, remember, so Barry Weiss is this news disruptor. Nick Bilton, whatever his name is. Actually, I don't have no idea what.
- [36:25]
B
Well, Nick Bilton is a writer. He wrote for Vanity Fair, he's made a couple of documentaries.
- [36:31]
A
He's just a writer. He's never been in the television business. But anybody who watches television always believes they can make better television. And I think they look at 60 Minutes and they probably feel like. I feel. I mean, it is dull beyond all dull. It is earnest beyond all earnest. Has anyone. I mean, it is for an audience. I mean it's for actually of quite an old audience. So in the future there will be problems. Cause the audience is not being replaced. It's being. It's for an audience of people who are snoozing. So I think they feel, hey, we can.
- [37:13]
B
I think we're gonna hear from Scott Pelly now.
- [37:15]
A
We can make this great. We can bring this back to life. But it's very difficult to do that. Plus you have a situation in which, in which the show makes a lot of money. So what they're going to do, and this is inevitable, it's written, it's a done deal, that they will now go to work on 60 minutes and it will not make as Much money as it has, it will lose a considerable part of the money that it has been making. This is all so obvious, it's all so apparent that we can go home.
- [37:52]
B
Well, I'm sure Bari Weiss, too, was just perhaps overexcited at the idea of being able to meddle at cbs. And we should just remind people that CBS has gone through, what is it, six heads of news in the last six years. CBS has a way of rejecting any kind of organ transplant. It just doesn't fit within the body of it. And she can't, I imagine, be having a good time. And Nick Bilton had sat down with the staff on Monday to talk to them. Bari Weiss, interestingly, wasn't in the room. And Nick Bilton, unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your point of view, on 60 Minutes, got eaten alive by Scott Pelley and the staff. They then fired Scott Pelley the next day. But it's a mess. It looks like nobody's in charge. And the really interesting thing, if you don't have experience in television is, you know, if you work on. If you work on something like a newsletter, you can change everything right at the last minute. It really doesn't matter. But with television, you need pictures, you need story. It goes through a process. It has to be legaled. So they've now fired, I think, 60% of their correspondents. They've got three left, and they fired four of them. And Anderson Cooper took himself out a couple of months ago. And yet they've still got an enormous amount of television to make by September. And you can't do that at the speed that you can do. Digital television takes time. You have to book interviews, you have to persuade people to do interviews. And even if it's straightforward television and it's just Leslie Stahl interviewing someone, you still have to set it up. You have to send Cruise there. It's expensive to do. It's not. You can't just do this like you're doing it for TikTok. That's not going to work. So they have an enormous amount of television to actually make between now and September when the new series starts again, can.
- [39:47]
A
So what happens to Bari Weiss is that 60 Minutes and CBS News in general don't make as much money as they did before she took over. And she gets in trouble for that, and she gets ultimately fired for that because, A, because everybody gets fired, and B, because rich Nepo baby kids still like money.
- [40:17]
B
Well, and you know that everybody who sees David Ellison is saying to him, good Lord, what's happening at cbs? News, what's happening there? What's happening there, because it's become a story, and it's so easy to think you can do these things from the outside and so much harder when you get in there.
- [40:33]
A
And let's bring this back to where we should be, which is the Trump of it all, is that as we have, as I've now argued, we're seeing, we're at the beginning of the end of Trump. So if you're doing these things basically because Trump is your patron, what happens if he becomes a weaker and weaker patron? Well, then everybody, including, I mean, everybody in Congress and everybody and the Ellisons along with those people, begin to move away from him. And so it will be who is stuck to the guy. And if you're stuck to him, if that's where you've made your bed, you're going to get screwed.
- [41:25]
B
Okay, well, he's also been screwed on his ballroom in terms of Republican senators voting against giving it a billion dollars to build this sort of complicated security bunker that he wants to do. So the ballroom is now sort of floating in limbo.
- [41:48]
A
Well, at the same time, that is, there is this frantic effort and systematic effort, really more than that, than frantic to just put his name and likeness on everything he possibly can. And it's a very Trump, Trump thing. And he believes this has meaning. This isn't just vanity, as I think most of us see this, but a programmatic way to achieve dominance, control, importance, significance.
- [42:27]
B
So what are you saying about what's going to happen to the bull? We know that there've been lots of private donations for it. He said it was going to cost 250 million. Then he upped it to 400 million because he could clearly see that people wanted to write him a check.
- [42:40]
A
He is not going to say, yeah, okay, this, this, this didn't work out. And this actually brings us. So you know this, the $1.8 billion slush fund, which then his lawyer sent his, his lawyer, Todd Blanche out to say, okay, we're not gonna do this, and then immediately undercut he him and said, no, I love the thing. I love. I love this slush punk.
- [43:04]
B
Right? When he was asked by Caitlyn Collins, is it. Is it closed now? Is it off the table? He was like, I don't know. I love it. Yes.
- [43:10]
A
Nothing ever comes off the table. It's just. It's just a feint for how you get it back on the table.
- [43:17]
B
But who do we think is going to pay for the ballroom if. If Congress has decided they're not going to pay for the ballroom. Does it have to be done by private donations, which.
- [43:28]
A
Well, this is the United States government. There is a lot of money that comes from a lot of places. I don't think finding the money is the problem for this. I think there is the series of impediments along the way. At least that's the way he's looking at this. And remember, in the real estate business in New York, there are always impediments along the way. Everybody is always trying to stop you from building things. So how do you build them? Well, you build them in the dead of night and you build them because you say that they're something other than they are. You lie, cheat and steal and then you get your building built.
- [44:09]
B
Yeah, that's a perfect up sum of how you get New York real estate done. Well, we said we were going to talk about California. We also said we were going to talk about sex in politics. Politics.
- [44:23]
A
Well, geez, take your pick, Take your pick.
- [44:26]
B
We could do a drive by of California because I think let's.
- [44:29]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean California, I mean the California thing is interesting to me as a reflection of, of where the Democrats are at this, at this point in time. So the Democrats are going to be, they are now, now being offered an incredible opportunity. Donald Trump is by the day weaker and weaker and weaker. And that weakness depends upon, shortly depends upon whether or not the Democrats can take advantage of it. Judging by California. That's not clear. Clear. They certainly have not gotten their act together in California. As a matter of fact, the top vote getter at this point in the California primary, and the California primary involves both Democrats and Republicans, and then the top two go to a face off in November. So. But the top vote getter is a Republican, a rather unlikely Republican by the name of Steve Hilton, who, as it happens, is a friend of yours and a friend of mine.
- [45:53]
B
And he's British. He's British.
- [45:55]
A
Yes. And he is. And he is. His background is not only is he British, but his background and his career has been in British politics. So of all of the crazy stuff that is happening in British politics, I would submit that this is the craziest that a former Tory spin doctor might become the governor of California.
- [46:20]
B
Yep. And we interviewed him earlier. I think we interviewed him last year because he has a book out called Caliphalia where he claims that, you know, the Democrats have been in charge of California for 20 years and it's a mess. There are homeless people everywhere. There's too much bureaucracy for Businesses, the schools aren't good enough. And yet it is this golden land. It's got the sixth biggest economy in the world. And he says his basic policy seems to be just don't do stupid stuff, and that he thinks that the Democrats have just been too worried.
- [46:57]
A
Yeah, no, I don't know. I didn't read Steve's book, and I really don't know Steve's politics, although at various times, because he's worked at Fox, he's been a good, good source of mine. But I like Steve enormously. I think he's a. He's a, you know, he's a person I. I enjoy spending time with.
- [47:18]
B
Yeah, he's enormous fun. He's very provocative. He lives in a lovely house with chickens. He's got lots of chickens. In fact, he was behind the reason why I got some chickens during COVID which sadly didn't last as long as we'd hoped they would due to an untimely possum invasion, although we managed to save several of them. But he's enormously entertaining and very thoughtful about politics. They got given to a farm that was better able to take care of them than we were.
- [47:49]
A
And it's interesting to look at this not on a political basis, because I don't. I don't really. The politics of California are occasionally cross my screen in mind, but not too much. And Steve is a Republican. As a matter of fact, he's supported by Donald Trump, but that would be a character that I don't quite recognize. But then there's this other guy, this billionaire who's running, who I don't think he will get into the runoff, but I think he'll end up as the number three. But a close number three.
- [48:26]
B
Tom Stier.
- [48:27]
A
Yes. And I mean, he's a progressive liberal and he's a big jerk. I mean, I've had a bunch of dealings with him, and God knows it would be painful to have to vote for him, even if he were the progressive in the race. And Steve Hilton were the Trump support to Republican in the race.
- [48:53]
B
Well. And neither of them are really representative of their actual parties. Tom Steyer also, it has to be said, has the least charisma of any politician or political hopeful I think I've ever seen. The idea that California will be represented by him is a little shocking.
- [49:12]
A
He's also just an unpleasant guy. I mean, everything is triangulated. Everything is about what he can get with his money.
- [49:22]
B
Oh.
- [49:23]
A
Oh, just terrible. But I don't think he's going to be in. And I Don't know anything about the
- [49:31]
B
other guy, the Democrat, Javier Becerra, the
- [49:34]
A
Democrats have managed to come up with, you know, in all of the major Democrats in the party stayed out of this race, including Kamala Harris.
- [49:44]
B
Well, let's remind ourselves, Kamala Harris was expected to be the front runner. Then she decided to take herself out because she wants to run for 2028. And then Congressman Eric Swalwell immediately leapt into front position, pole position, until he was felled by numerous accusations of sexual assault.
- [50:03]
A
Back to our sex and politics.
- [50:05]
B
Back to sex in politics. And Graham Platner, who was having meetings behind closed doors with Democratic senators this week trying to figure out if he should still run. He is, of course, the oysterman and Marine who put his hat in the ring because the opposition that they were going to give to Susan Collins, who's the Republican senator up there. And frequently, in theory, on the fence, though she always ends up voting for Trump. Their challenger was going to be Janet Mills, the popular governor of Maine who's term limited out and was going to run for Senate and got the establishment endorsement, except that she will be 80 by the time she would get into the city Senate. So Graham Platner has taken her on.
- [50:51]
A
You believe that Platner is now reconsidering whether or not he should be running?
- [50:57]
B
No, no, that's not what I said. I said he's been having to go and talk to Democratic senators and sort of explain the sexting scandal, scandal in inverted commas, because he was apparently sending explicit sexts to women at the time, in the early years of his marriage. And we know this because his wife apparently confided in a campaign aid that these texts had happened. She knew about them, they'd worked through it. The couple had gone through counseling, yada, yada. Their marriage is stronger than ever. Yada, yada, yada. And the campaign aide then apparently leaked the text, which is how we know about them.
- [51:39]
A
A campaign aide who resigned some time ago or was forced out of the campaign as a. I, as I recall.
- [51:45]
B
Correct.
- [51:46]
A
And, and, and so, and just, just to know, Platner is not being accused by any women of illegal or abusive actions also.
- [51:59]
B
Correct.
- [52:01]
A
So he's just a, a dirty texter outside of his marriage.
- [52:07]
B
I haven't read the text, so I don't know how dirty they are or how you define dirty, but it was enough to send him and his wife to counseling.
- [52:15]
A
But now, and just to add that, we did get a glimpse of RFK Jr. S dirty texting. RFK Jr. Who is married to A woman to whom he was not married.
- [52:30]
B
You mean to Olivia Nuzi, the journalist?
- [52:32]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [52:33]
B
It's no longer disqualifying to be involved
- [52:36]
A
in a. I guess it isn't. Sometimes it's disqualifying, sometimes it's not disqualifying. Obviously, Anthony Weiner found it highly disqualifying, but that was quite some time ago now.
- [52:52]
B
Well. And our leader in chief, commander in chief, hasn't found it remotely disqualifying. He's got umpteen accusations of sexual assault. Yeah, well, these are.
- [53:01]
A
This. Because he doesn't obviously text women. But why. I wonder why he doesn't.
- [53:07]
B
He doesn't put anything in email. I'm sure he called, calls them. Right. Because he, he calls everybody.
- [53:12]
A
I mean, I don't think we know where to go with this sex in politics thing because it is very. A very volatile, changing, unclear moment. You know, and I think that's the Graham Platner argument. You know, he did. He. He didn't.
- [53:32]
B
Well, they appear to have been consensual texts, which is the difference. Right. In fact, tomorrow I am with Farah Thomazin, our correspondent in D.C. talking about Republican sex scandals, because there are a surprising number of candidates standing who've got actual sex scandals against them, accusations by people of sexual assault and abuse. And in fact, there's one rapist, a guy who spent six years in jail for rape standing. So it's a different. I mean, these things are on a grade, these things are on a spectrum. And the Platner texts appear to be consensual texts between female friends and Graham Platner. And the issue is he was married at the time.
- [54:19]
A
Part of the picture is here is that politicians have always been dirty dogs, famously dirty dogs. And we didn't know it. Now we know it.
- [54:29]
B
Now we know it. And also I think the other thing is, what was so interesting in the Eric Swalwell case was that the minute the accusations came out, senior Democrats were like, yep, you have to step down. And then the ripple effect was everybody saying, oh, we always knew this about him. We knew this about him. Well, if you knew it about him, why on earth did you put the party in that position where now Steve Hilton, a Republican, is actually at the top of the ticket right now?
- [54:55]
A
I mean, there's knowing about it and then there's knowing about it about it. So people didn't know about it. They just know that everybody says the guy is a dirty dog, and everybody. All of his evident behavior indicates that. But you don't know. You Just know that here's another creep in politics. I mean, and to be a creep in politics. And really so many of these people,
- [55:24]
B
which goes back to likability and people wanting candidates who are fun to hang out with. The old George Bush. Let's have a beer.
- [55:31]
A
Yeah, but George Bush. There's another guy who had a sex problem, obviously.
- [55:35]
B
Wait a minute. Which George Bush are we talking about? George H. Bush?
- [55:39]
A
No, no. Well, he had a problem. He had problems, too. But George W. Obviously had a lot of problems before he became, you know, born again and got off the sauce.
- [55:53]
B
Right. And started going to bed regularly and getting up and running 10 miles in the morning. Yeah, well, happily, he got himself together.
- [56:01]
A
No, he was supposed to be a fun guy and then he became a boring guy. Watched 60 Minutes all the time.
- [56:08]
B
He's back to 60 Minutes. So, Michael, someone sent us. Someone called JRPR8J B sent us a poem written by Sarah Norcliffe Cleghorn in 1914 that she thought was still relevant. The golf links lie so near the mill that almost every day the labouring children can look out and see the men at play. Very good. And then we've got two new Limericarians. Limericarians. This is from mkfi1jk. There once was a bully who loved to spend time chasing a golf ball all you want, but looking rather gaunt. He will fall and fall in the Gulf. Slight problems with the scanning there, but nevertheless, good effort. Good effort. B plus for effort. And then from Richard Thompson. There once was a strait of Hormuz that everyone needed to use. Netanyahu and Trump started to thump, but Iran said, this time you lose.
- [57:15]
A
Great.
- [57:15]
B
Very good. Richard Thompson, top of the class. And someone actually sent us a video of a musical song they have done which had the very good line in it. He buys them new shoes for the straight of Hormuz. Which I thought it was a very good line. I'm trying to figure out if we can actually play a short burst of it because it imitates Gilbert and Sardin Sullivan. It's very funny. Anyway, I love how creative people are and there are lots of poems and limericks in the comments, but once again, leave us a comment. And in terms of the book club, we're trying to figure out how to do it. But what we.
- [57:54]
A
I don't want to call it a book club.
- [57:55]
B
We're not calling it a book club.
- [57:58]
A
They would call it a book club on 60 Minutes, for sure.
- [58:02]
B
Well, what we are going to do is talk about the books that you and I read to inform some of these conversations and the one we were going to focus on right now is King of Kings by Scott Anderson, which you like and it's about Iran.
- [58:15]
A
I do like really one of my memorable books of the year and a book that has really been incredibly helpful in thinking about Iran in this situation that we're now in. But more important than that, oh my God, it's a good story.
- [58:37]
B
Worry we will be back on Saturday. I forgot to ask people to subscribe. Please subscribe. We're independent media and we love your support and there aren't very many people having conversations like this, which is why our subscription base happily is growing and it's growing fast. But we're trying to get to a million. So we would love your support if you haven't subscribed.
- [58:59]
A
But thank you to our team, Ryan, Rachel, Neil and John and Heather.
- [59:06]
B
So the good news is we have so many bebeast tier members now there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.