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- [00:00]
Joanna Coles
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- [00:11]
Michael Wolff
Have a ball.
- [00:12]
Joanna Coles
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- [00:47]
Michael Wolff
That's it.
- [00:48]
Joanna Coles
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- [01:00]
Joanna Coles
He arrives there and it's what do I do to claim all of the attention? This personality quirk has translated into an effective foreign policy, which is to say our foreign policy is not to cooperate with our allies because our allies are irrelevant. We are the focus. We must be the focus. And by we, Trump means I. I must be the focus. That then becomes the profile of America's place in the world. No other interests matter. No other nations matter. No other leaders matter.
- [01:44]
Michael Wolff
Michael, Joanna, where to begin? Perhaps by introducing who we are?
- [01:52]
Joanna Coles
I am Joanna Coles and I am from Yorkshire and I have been in New York for many years and doing running women's magazine. So what I'm doing here on a Trump podcast, I have no idea.
- [02:08]
Michael Wolff
What is that, Michael? What is that? I came here as the bureau chief for the Guardian and I am Michael Wolff, who writes books about Donald Trump. I don't know what that was and I happily edited Cosmopolitan and Marie Claire to powerhouse female juggernaut media.
- [02:26]
Joanna Coles
But how did you get from It's a curious. So make the connection, which I'm interested in, between editing a women's magazine and being in the politics business. Now, I have an answer for this. If you don't.
- [02:42]
Michael Wolff
Well, give me the answer then.
- [02:44]
Joanna Coles
Well, because I actually think, and I think it's highly relevant to what we're doing here, that Donald Trump is not a political person, that he comes out of that he is much more of a cultural phenomenon than a political phenomenon, which would give you great cred to Talk about him.
- [03:02]
Michael Wolff
Good. Okay.
- [03:04]
Joanna Coles
So I don't really mean that. Well, I mean everything in a kind of. In a jabby way. But this particular thing, I think, is an important thing, and it's an important thing about what we do here that the. And, And I think the. The. The world is. Is handicapped by the fact that it is forced to look through a political media at Donald Trump. And when you do that, I think you see him incorrectly. So. And that's why we're here. And I, in fact, I don't. I. I mean, I think somebody could argue that I've written about politics, you know, for many, many years, but I really haven't. I've always written about the media and its relationship to politics. And obviously, Donald Trump reflects that part of a phenomenon more about the media than about politics.
- [04:01]
Michael Wolff
And I'm interested in people and I'm interested in characters, and Donald Trump is simply bar. Non. The most interesting character in the world. And I'm also interested in how one person who can manage to dominate the news cycle in the way that he does, and it's just been a remarkable week at NATO. The only person that really has competed for attention, and that's because he's nowhere to be seen, is Mitch McConnell. Is there any proof of life. If there's anybody listening or watching this podcast and you have proof of life of Mitch McConnell, please, please surface it. It is remarkable to me that all these people are claiming they've talked to. No one has a single picture of him. What has happened to Mitch McConicle, Mitch McConagle or someone as someone mechanical?
- [04:56]
Joanna Coles
McConicle.
- [04:56]
Michael Wolff
McConnicle. McConicle. McNavicle. McConicle as someone referred to him. I can't claim that I originated this phrase, but it's very good. Rigor tortoise. Has he got rigor tortoise? What a good line about Mitch McConnell.
- [05:13]
Joanna Coles
Let's do the postmortem on Mitch, because I think he's actually a kind of fascinating figure in. A fascinating figure as a Trump satellite, which is what the poor man has become.
- [05:26]
Michael Wolff
Well, and why hasn't Donald Trump said anything about him either? That's interesting, because as we know, he can't resist saying anything about anybody. I did think also, and one time I would really like to do an episode on Donald Trump's cultural influences, because I think the time he grew up is really interesting. Far fewer channels, no social media, and I think there were certain movies along the way that probably influenced him disproportionately. So, you know, like Wall street or pretty women or I actually think, or
- [06:03]
Joanna Coles
more as much to the point, the Godfather, which influenced an entire generation, two generations of men.
- [06:13]
Michael Wolff
Of men.
- [06:13]
Joanna Coles
Less women, I think, but, but certainly men.
- [06:16]
Michael Wolff
Oh, my God. Not the Godfather talk. There's always a moment when you're dating someone wants to talk about the Godfather, and you just want to, you just want to yawn and put your head down and wake up after.
- [06:29]
Joanna Coles
Yeah, no, no. A whole, you know, a whole business world. Actually, I recently wrote about this. God, God knows, I, this kind of flash on what I've recently wr. Written about. And then I think, and I think, when did I write about that? Oh, yesterday. But yes, that came to influence the entire 80s culture of money, of business, with Donald Trump as one of its chief exponents.
- [06:58]
Michael Wolff
So. All right, so we'll come back to that and let's do a special episode on it. And I don't know whether or not he ever watched Entourage on hbo, which I thought was a. Well, it was.
- [07:10]
Joanna Coles
Oh, but, but no, but let's. I, I take that back. I, I doubt he did because he's, he was then at the point in which, in which he was not. You couldn't settle him in front of a television. He was. If he wasn't on the television, he was not.
- [07:27]
Michael Wolff
Right. Not interested in watching it.
- [07:28]
Joanna Coles
But Entourage was about his agent, right?
- [07:32]
Michael Wolff
Ari Emanuel. Yeah.
- [07:34]
Joanna Coles
Yes.
- [07:34]
Michael Wolff
And, but I was reminded of Entourage yesterday, seeing him at NATO. And I want to come back to Mitch McConnell. I want to talk about the Aegean Carroll judgment and the fact that he may finally be forced to pay Aegean something as she's been slowly wending her way through the courts like you have. I want to come back to Graham Platner, who suspended his campaign since we last talked on Tuesday. But let's talk about NATO.
- [08:00]
Joanna Coles
Yes, NATO. NATO. Because this really, really sums up. It's a Trump moment. It' sums up exactly who he is and what he does. And so I had a White House conversation just before he got on the plane to go to NATO. And I said, because, and this has always been in the history, the 10 year Trump history of the staff around him. It's always been a kind of moment of holding their breath when he goes to NATO because it's someplace that he dislikes, intensely dislikes being there, and we discussed this the other day, that he doesn't like to be among a group of equals. He just doesn't like it. Doesn't like the look, doesn't like what it says, the meaning of this. It just runs against everything in his. In his being, particularly the picture, the ritual picture that has to be taken there. So I said to this person, I said, so what's he going to do? And this person says, I don't know, but he's going to do something. And I think that that's exactly what we've seen here. He arrives there and it's. What do I do to claim all of the attention? And, I mean, this has been a series of kind of things, including going back to war in Iran, which I think is very plausibly just there. That is obviously going to upstage the NATO meeting, then coming back to Greenland, then coming back to dismissing everyone dissing Europe. So essentially, how could he not but become the center of attention here? But the thing is, and I think this is the fundamental point that to remember, that's what this is about. This is about attention. Donald Trump is about attention. He's not about policy. He's not about accomplishments. He's not about America first. He's certainly not about cooperation, which is the nature of NATO. It's just about attention. And to understand that, you have to, I think to fully understand it, you have to understand that there is no meaning beyond that. It's not about anything else. The only intention here is the attention paid to. To him. And I think you can probably extend that out, that this is. That we've seen. What is this 10 years of the Trump era been about? It has just been about what gets him attention.
- [11:05]
Michael Wolff
Interesting. Do you think, actually that he really bombed Iran again just because he could and for attention?
- [11:15]
Joanna Coles
Well, I'm sure that that was a factor in this, and it may have been the overriding factor. Yes. America has always built its way forward through disruption, through reinvention, through people overcoming the challenges before them. Today, the ideas shaping America's future are being built collaboratively by communities, innovators and entrepreneurs all looking in the same direction. In storefronts, community centers and towns most people drive through without stopping. People are using technology and creativity to solve real problems and problems, practical ways, building opportunity, optimism, and momentum from the ground up. We're already writing America's next chapter. We're building what's next now.
- [12:03]
Michael Wolff
Wow. I mean, it is strange when you hear earnest and utterly sincere journalists trying to make sense out of what he does. And, you know, I read several accounts of dueling messages and conflicting messages coming out of NATO. And on the one hand, he's supportive and he gave that strange speech saying there was so much love, so much love. And then he goes, I'm not Gonna say the love is all about me. Cause people are gonna say, I'm conceded. He's conceded. I mean, it's just, it's fascinating the way he does these strange sort of stream of consciousness.
- [12:38]
Joanna Coles
But this is all, it is all focusing attention on him. Yeah, of course, that reversal. Okay. This was an incredibly hostile X number of hours. Hostile in every respect.
- [12:50]
Michael Wolff
Right.
- [12:51]
Joanna Coles
And then he suddenly gets to say, no, no, it was a love fest. Again, the attention comes back to him.
- [12:56]
Michael Wolff
Right. And also, and the photo, the group photo which you referenced in Tuesday's podcast. I was watching it as they assembled them, and I hope we can play some of the footage, because what's fascinating is you've got the back row, then you've got the middle row, then you've got the front row. Trump obviously wants to be in the middle of the front row if he's got to be in a group shot at all. So there's the very funny part where Mark Rutter, the head of NATO, Secretary General of NATO, shakes every leader who's there by the hand and then leads them off the stage. And you can see how annoyed Trump is that he has to come and do this. And he sort of sidles up and he's really talking to the audience and thanking the audience in as much as there is one. And then he gets shown off the stage, so you can see he's irritated. And then in the group photo, they have him slightly off center on the bottom row, and again, you can just see him bridling that it's not all about him. And he's got to stand with this group, and he's next to Keir Starmer, who's on his way out. So I'm sure he thinks Keir Starmer's a total loser. And the whole thing is just, it's so revealing of this craving for attention, this tiny child who just never got enough of it and who throws temper tantrums and knows exactly how to get attention. Attention.
- [14:17]
Joanna Coles
Yeah. Well, I, I, I, I don't know. That's an interesting thing. Never got enough of it. I mean, I think maybe it actually, it's the opposite is true. He has always gotten too much of it, and that has created an addiction which obviously has to be, has to be satisfied with ever more attention, ever more, evermore.
- [14:40]
Michael Wolff
Well, but to me, his craving for it suggests that it was something lacking early. And whatever he gets, it's never going to be enough.
- [14:50]
Joanna Coles
Well, apparently, it is never going to be enough. We can certainly agree on that.
- [14:55]
Michael Wolff
We can agree on that.
- [14:55]
Joanna Coles
But, you know, it's an. And it's interesting how this has this personality quirk has translated into a, you know, an effective foreign policy, which is to say that our foreign policy is not to cooperate with our allies, because our allies are irrelevant. We are the focus. We must be the focus. And by we, Trump means I must be the focus. And that then becomes the profile of America's place in the world. No other. No other interests matter. No other nations matter, no other leaders matter.
- [15:43]
Michael Wolff
Well, I did think of entourage when he was there, because he had Marco there, he had Pete Hegseth there, he had. I think Howard Lutnick was there, or was it Scott Besant was there, but he had an entourage of these men, none of whom said anything. And then at the end, when Trump was leaving the podium at one point and taking his boys with him, and it reminded me, and this is why I was going back to sort of cultural moments and cultural memes. It reminded me a little bit of Danny Zuko in Greece with his kind of wingman around him. It's like Trump travels with his wingmen. And then Marco, the Secretary of State for the United States and our national security advisor and goodness knows how many other jobs he's got, grabs a glass from the podium and a file as he's leaving, as if he is literally the secretary, not the Secretary of State, but cleaning up after Trump, because Trump has left some notes behind and he sort of skips down behind them all. But also Trump's insistence on sort of saying, marco's here. Marco thinks it's great, don't you, Marco? Instead of calling him Secretary of State, this weird familiarity, as if they're all there just to support him. It's like Gladys Knight and the Pips. It's just the weirdest thing.
- [17:07]
Joanna Coles
Yeah. And that is. That is literally how he sees it. These are my people, my guys.
- [17:15]
Michael Wolff
Do you think it's because he doesn't have any friends and he wants to sort of hang out with.
- [17:20]
Joanna Coles
No, no, no, no. He doesn't want to hang out with these people at all. He wants toadies, he wants lackeys. He wants everyone to. Wants it to be seen that these people are in a state of subservience to him.
- [17:37]
Michael Wolff
Right. So it's a power plays. Just reinforcing his own power as the leader of the gang.
- [17:42]
Joanna Coles
Yes. No. And. And he likes these people to reinforce him because that's their job. Isn't that. Didn't I just give the best speech of my life? Oh, you just gave the best speech of Your life. And that's what this is, to be in this little bubble. That's what it is. Like, I, I, I mean, it's, it's, it's a kind of the, the feeling when you hear these people do it. You just, you cringe with your own shame.
- [18:09]
Michael Wolff
You cringe with your own shame. I wish I could be a fly on the wall for the conversations that they must have when Trump isn't in the room and they don't think they're being spied upon. I mean, how can they even have these conversations?
- [18:21]
Joanna Coles
But, well, they don't really, I mean, it doesn't, I mean, occasionally, and occasionally, if you have a relationship with some of these people, they will give you a perspective. But, but it's very important. And they don't really talk among each other. Nobody really shares their views of Donald Trump among each other because of the, obviously the, the, the, the fear that anyone would, anyone might betray another. Which they would.
- [18:51]
Michael Wolff
Which they would. Of course they would.
- [18:52]
Joanna Coles
But also, you're in this role. You can, I mean, it's very hard to break that role because you, if you broke, if you break your role and suddenly say, oh, my God, what, what have I done? What have I become? Then you would,
- [19:08]
Michael Wolff
so that's very dramatic for Thursday.
- [19:13]
Joanna Coles
They all maintain it is. You're in this existential position and it is all about survival. I know what I have to do in order to survive this. And if I do survive this, well, then Marco Rubio, I might become the President of the United States. So J.D. vance, I might become the President of the United States. They won't, by the way. But, you know, they of course think that because they couldn't go on if they didn't think that there was something beyond this.
- [19:45]
Michael Wolff
I did an interview yesterday with Ashley Sinclair, who's a former MAGA influencer for Turning Point and a baby mama of Elon Musk's. And I asked her if she thought JD Vance would get to be president, and she said no. He has the charisma of a wet napkin, which I thought was rather a good description. Anyway, let us talk about the way Trump and his entourage left Turkey, because it was not as they arrived. And I was imagining them all having so much fun on the new tricked out grift Force One as they set off for Turkey. And they're probably all just enjoying the sumptuous leather seats and the gold and the snacks and all of the things on a new plane. And then to their great disappointment, they have to come back in just plain old Old Air Force One. Do you want to explain why apparently
- [20:43]
Joanna Coles
the Secret Service put its foot down and said that, that the, that the Qatari Air Force One had had vulnerabilities and that given what was going on in Iran, they were, they, they raised the threat level. Apparently. Now you would not notice this. Know this from what Trump said, and he said exactly the opposite, which is that interesting thing that obviously this, this, this happened. That is what, what happened. Why else would you, would you. I mean, there are only two reasons that you would not return in the, in the preferred plane, which is that either the plane itself had some kind of mechanical problem or there is this other concern that it was not properly retrofitted with the necessary security and there were worries, if not threats, and they would have had to have gone to this match. This would have been a confrontation. The Secret Service says you cannot go back in this, in this plane. And Trump would have been, you know, I mean, it's that interesting moment when, you know, in the president can theoretically overrule the Secret Service, but not necessarily, and especially if the Secret Service makes it a matter of effectively national security. I mean, I suppose you could have, you could have framed that, said that in some, in some way that was at least relatively close to the truth. Instead, Trump lies blatantly and, and said that had nothing to do with it. And we're just showing off Air Force, the new Air Force One Two. I think they have it landing at some military base and we're just showing it off.
- [22:48]
Michael Wolff
Right. We're going to let the soldiers come on board and have a look at it. I mean, obviously not true.
- [22:52]
Joanna Coles
Obviously not true.
- [22:54]
Michael Wolff
Right.
- [22:54]
Joanna Coles
So why does he have to do this? Well, I mean, in part, he staked a lot on this absolutely ridiculous preposterous thing of taking this gift plane from, from Qatar, from the Qatarians who, who would have likely fitted it with all kinds of things that might be harmful to the, the plane security and to the end, to US Interests. But leave that aside. Pay no attention. And that is what this episode has become. Pay no attention to the obvious. I think the focus on the nature of the lie, of his need to do this, of his. It's effectively a strategy and has always been. I just deny it. I don't want that to be the reality. I deny it. I don't have to accept that.
- [23:56]
Michael Wolff
Well, he was asked by a female reporter was there a specific threat that they were responding to by changing the plane. And he said, well, I'm the number one target. I'm the number one Target. And then he added helpfully, and if I go down, you go down too. This is not how one hopes president speak. But of course he does speak like this because he is the president and we shouldn't be looking for normality. We should be trying to understand who he is. But it was not unamusing that his grift force One that he is so proud of, with its endless lounges and bedrooms and its nine half bathrooms and its four full bathrooms, turns out not to be up to the job of flying an American president to a NATO summit in Turkey and bringing him back.
- [24:42]
Joanna Coles
So this will be interesting to keep our eye on this, because I would say that this indicates that there is something wrong with this plane.
- [24:51]
Michael Wolff
Interesting, interesting. And I also wondered if he got back on the old Air Force One and started kicking it. It's again, just going to the sort of childish thing that he would be stomping around going, I hate this plane. Oh, look at this horrible sofa, sort of kicking the tables.
- [25:07]
Joanna Coles
No, I can guarantee that's exactly what he would be, what he would be doing. I mean, he's strangely aware of his environment, or perhaps it is that loss of control over his environment. And he has this idea in his head of what things should look like and be like. I mean, it's a level of taste, although it's of course at all times incredibly bad taste. But, but the idea of, of, of. Of how furniture should, should look, of how things, of how clean, how things should be cleaned, I mean, it's a, it's a, A weird set of fixations almost in every situation that he is in. This is not the way it should be. This is the way I like it. I go to a, I go to a hotel. Well, I don't want to wear those slippers if they're not in cellophane. So aids have to go out to get him the slippers in cellophane. This is not the kind of candy I like. This is the kind of candy. So it's all, I think you could say it's one. It's childish at this level. I want what I want when I want it, but it's also a kind of a particular, a particularity that is obsessive to, to a degree.
- [26:36]
Michael Wolff
Well, and I think probably also he doesn't want to be on the plane because it was Biden's plane and before that it was Obama's plane. And so that's. Or before that actually was his plane and then it was Obama's plane. But that sense of obviously, I think what he likes about Grift Force One is that he's the first president to ride it and he's going to.
- [26:55]
Joanna Coles
With him, it's. Yeah. I'm sorry. Sorry for interrupting, but. Which is perhaps the first time I've.
- [27:02]
Michael Wolff
I nearly passed out, Michael. I almost did a coffee spit.
- [27:05]
Joanna Coles
But I have a. I have a thing. Cause it just. I just flashed on that. When he travels, when he's out on the campaign trail and he has to stay overnight, which he hates to do, but when forced to do that, then it's very particular about the kind of hotels that he likes to stay in that he's willing to stay in. And it's always a chain hotel, and it always is the newest chain hotel.
- [27:35]
Michael Wolff
Right. Because he equates new with luxury or new with clean, perhaps. And yet we know from reports that he throws his ice cream cartons and his candy wrappers on the floor of his bedroom in the White House. He's a messy eater.
- [27:55]
Joanna Coles
Yeah. No, no, I mean, it is. I mean, it's. I mean, one of the great descript I had was in this hotel, particular hotel room, I think this was in Iowa, with literally the candy wrappers. This was compared to like fall leaves on the ground. You just went crunching through them. The poor cleanings, that noise as you walk through of not leaves, but of the wrappers from the Milky Ways.
- [28:29]
Michael Wolff
Well, and also there were reports when he stayed in London with the royal family that he'd left the bedroom in a terrible state, that the royal cleaners were completely surprised that the American President would have left the room in this situation. But it's a sort of. I guess it's a kind of weird passive aggressive thing. And other people clear up after you. So another person that's got some clearing up to do, Graham Platner Platters, has suspended his campaign and left the Dems in Maine in a mess with. Two weeks, just over two weeks to find a new candidate to face down Susan Collins and try and win back the Senate.
- [29:13]
Joanna Coles
No. Extraordinary. And it goes to where the Democrats are at this point in time. Not only the broader goals to win back the Senate, but the more specific question of how did they get into this mess?
- [29:30]
Michael Wolff
Right. And there was an editorial board column in the Times today. We're recording this on Thursday morning, saying that the problem with Platner is that the Dems are looking for personalities to mask the apparent fact they have no policy and that they may be the
- [29:50]
Joanna Coles
first person to have read a.
- [29:53]
Michael Wolff
Well, I often. I don't always agree with them. But I thought, I thought this one was a good one. That in fact what they're trying to do is say personality is not a platform. The Dems need a platform and we really don't know what the platform is. What do they think about the economy? What do they think about immigration? What do they think about AI? We know that they think never Trump, but we don't know much else right now.
- [30:17]
Joanna Coles
I mean it's a little off point because I mean this is a local race. This is, you know, Graham Platner is not running for president or was not running for President of the United States. He was running for a Senate, a seat in the, in the Senate from Maine to represent Maine in the Senate. That's how we worked. I mean this is actually you still
- [30:40]
Michael Wolff
have to have some policies that differentiate you from Susan Collins.
- [30:44]
Joanna Coles
Well, we do know what Graham. Well, yeah, we don't know, but in, in Graham Platner, I'm not, I'm not sure that that would be the, that's the most relevant issue to people, to people in Maine. I mean we do know that he was that certainly in contrast to Susan Collins. Collins that he was. I mean he had staked out this, this thing that this is the, the, the. You know, I'm a, I'm a working man. I represent, that's who I want to represent. I represent a whole range of, of, of economic views that are, that are antithetical to, to corporate America, to billionaire America, to Trump America and to boot, and very specifically, I have taken a position against Israel. So there are very, I don't know what the Times is talking about actually. Only that they don't like these views. That there are a series of views taken by certain, by Platner and by other of these insurgent Democrats that are, you know, clear policy views. I mean they may not be policy views that are embraced by the rest of the Democratic Party because the Democratic Party might be lagging behind on this issue or the Democratic Party might be in. At an internal war. But there are real policy issues that are going on here. I think that the issue is that Schumer selected Janet Mills, the 78 year old governor of Maine to, to run for this seat. And I'm sure with a perfectly, you know, with a, with a logic that, that might have seemed obvious but was unchallenged, which is, well, she's a vote getter in Maine and, and why not? Without focusing on the fact that one of the central issues among the Democratic electorate is that is a generational issue. So suddenly Graham Platner became the contrast gainer. He was not a 78 year old politician, career politician, selected by the rest of the geronocracy of the Democratic Party. And so I think we can put this part of this problem back onto Schumer, who is a problem for the Democrats, a larger and larger problem for the Democrats. And you know, and then there is this, this, this other thing that there is a clearly a style dichotomy within the, the appreciation of what a politician should be. You know, Democrats have been, I don't know, I mean, Democrats are fake. Platner is real. You know, Democrats, professional Democrats have, have become, are. And this is true in the Republican Party too. And we'll get to Mitch McConnell have become this, this, this administrative class. And, and they bear, you know, little, little there. They just don't. There is just no identification with people who suddenly want to identify with politicians. And Graham Platner offered that I'm a real guy now. That became his problem. You know, the problem with real people is that they are real and that they have real problems. And the fact that Graham Platner, you
- [34:45]
Michael Wolff
know, seemed, well, he seemed rough, a little rough around the edges, which people thought would be a good thing. And of course it turned out, I
- [34:54]
Joanna Coles
mean, we can go further than that. He seemed kind of like a drunk. And. Well, he seemed like, it turns out he was a drunk.
- [35:02]
Michael Wolff
Right? It seemed like he was a reformed drunk. That he'd had a, you know, I mean, people were making excuses for him, saying he had PTSD from his service in the military, but he wanted to serve. I got an interesting text from someone who's involved in getting some of the veterans elected. You know, there's a whole group of young veterans who've served who want to carry on serving beyond the military. And I got this note yesterday about Platner. Yeah, Platner's a hot mess. He's a guy who did this running for largely good reasons to serve. But of course, there is his ego cover of Time. I didn't realize he'd been on the COVID of Time and he is deeply ego.
- [35:43]
Joanna Coles
Well, that's because It's Time and no. 1. Time magazine actually doesn't matter. Doesn't really exist. It doesn't really exist, so.
- [35:51]
Michael Wolff
Well, that's why I didn't know he'd
- [35:53]
Joanna Coles
been on the COVID of it. Yeah, out there. Yes.
- [35:55]
Michael Wolff
But he carried on. He's deeply wounded. It's believable to me that he put himself on the woman who'd just came out publicly in such a way, especially if he was heavily drunk, as she notes he was, and then never had the decency or courage to speak with her after. If that is true, that she reached out and asked for an apology. And there is, of course, other stuff, probably not yet in the public domain. On top of it all, I'm not sure he can hack it as a senator. If he was elected, he should drop for his own sake and others.
- [36:25]
Joanna Coles
Well, obviously, this is somebody who just came to this conclusion yesterday.
- [36:31]
Michael Wolff
No, no, this was. This was before Platner had dropped out, but it was just someone who's been very involved in looking for different kinds of candidates. To address your point that a lot of. Well, not a lot, but some Democratic candidates feel fake or feel like they're. They're tied to a party line.
- [36:52]
Joanna Coles
A lot of Democratic candidates, a lot of also Republican candidates feel fake. I mean, they are. They have. They have. You know, it's an interesting thing. In the. In the age of mass media coverage, they've protected themselves in such a way, protected them, Their lives, their language, their look, their feel, in ways that made them opaque. And suddenly you have a. You have a media, social media, who wants a different kind of authenticity, a different kind of personality, a different kind of look and feel. So those people are at odds. And this is, of course, magnified by Donald Trump, who is, to say the least, real. Appalling, of course, but he is.
- [37:47]
Michael Wolff
He's also a hot mess. A hot mess of a president.
- [37:50]
Joanna Coles
Exactly. And then we have all the things. I mean, what he has been accused of is. Is certainly as bad or worse than what Graham Platner has been accused of. And that's a whole other issue of why the Democrats are. Are in this. In this position and confronting this at a level that the Republicans don't seem to believe they have to confront.
- [38:15]
Michael Wolff
Right. Well, it's a good thing that they're getting rid of toxic candidates. Eric Swalwell being another one.
- [38:25]
Joanna Coles
It is. But then it becomes the thing. What is a real person. And a real person seems to have to be a toxic person, too, or else you're not real. I don't know. I mean.
- [38:36]
Michael Wolff
Well, it'd be nice to have some real people who aren't accused rapists. Of course he's denied the allegations. We should say Platner's denied the allegations of rape, said it's not true.
- [38:48]
Joanna Coles
Yeah, but even so, even before ptsd. Well, maybe it's not such a good idea to have your favorite son a PTSD survivor.
- [39:03]
Michael Wolff
Well, and the allegations are Very similar to what Pete Hegseth faced during his Senate confirmation.
- [39:09]
Joanna Coles
Right, Exactly. From the Republican side. I mean, think of RFK Jr. I mean, you can go down the list of Republicans that have, that have shrugged, essentially just shrugged this off.
- [39:23]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. I mean, Pete Hegseth also accused, you know, Joni Ernst said that she was very concerned about it looked like she was going to be a holdout, and then was confronted with leaking details of her own messy divorce and quickly hopped back on the bandwagon to confirm him. But almost identical allegations, and again, both men clearly having had a, a traumatic war. So do you think that E. Jean Carroll will finally get some money out of Donald Trump? He's doing everything he can to avoid it, but it looks like yesterday a judge made a decision that it's enough and it's time and Donald Trump has to pay her the 5 million she's due.
- [40:05]
Joanna Coles
I think that is in escrow. So the judge has ordered that to be released. So I guess it does go to her. I don't know if the Trump side can appeal that and try to at least try to delay that result, but it does sound like that's going to happen now. And I don't know what. So the other judgment, which was 83.
- [40:38]
Michael Wolff
3 million, is still wending its way through the court.
- [40:44]
Joanna Coles
So that is, she has yet to get that. But that also, by the way, is in an escrow account or I think he had to put up a bond for that. So this money is, all of this money is there, and all of this money should eventually get to her, which is not going to make Donald Trump happy.
- [41:13]
Michael Wolff
Well, it'll go to pay her lawyers because this has been such a long case. Right.
- [41:17]
Joanna Coles
Well, this is, this is. I certainly hope her lawyers are not going to cost her $90 million.
- [41:22]
Michael Wolff
No. Well, I hope so, too. I hope so, too. But no, Eugene Carroll, who I think lives a relatively modest life, actually will hopefully enjoy this. And she said she was going to give the money to women's causes and, you know, sexual violence causes.
- [41:41]
Joanna Coles
Now, the other. And I remember the moments during the campaign when these, when these judgments came down and in which it, it appeared that Donald Trump would have to, would have to put up the cash or put up a bond or put up so much money to insure the, the, the bond that it looked like it would force his, that it could come close to forcing his bankruptcy and that he would have to be there. There were certain major assets, 40 Wall street building that he, that, that he owns, that the court would have that the court was literally on the verge of taking his property. Now, let's compare that to the $2 billion he has earned in the 17 months, 17 months that he has been president.
- [42:47]
Michael Wolff
Hopefully Dean Carroll will actually get some cash then. So would we give cash for a proof of life video of Mitch McConnell? How is it possible that he's lying there and no one has sneaked out a photo?
- [43:02]
Joanna Coles
I, I, I, I, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm interested in two things here. I'm interested in the fact that, that, that, that people are so on top of this. I mean, as, and I think, I think we've, we've, we've discussed this, or at least you and I have discussed this, that, I mean, Mitch McConnell is of little consequence at this point. I mean, he's no longer a figure. I mean, we've known that he's been sick for a long time, significantly sick. He's stepped out of any kind of holding, any kind of power within the Senate, and he's not running for reelection. So what's the issue about him? And I think, to answer my own question, I think he's profoundly hated. And he's hated, probably for an historic reason, that he is the guy, one of the Republicans who could have stopped Donald Trump. And also understanding that Mitch McConnell was never a Trump believer, actually, he was always a Trump hater, and Trump hated him. And yet Mitch McConnell never raised a finger. And he very well could have. I mean, in the impeachment, after Trump's second impeachment, Mitch McConnell could have, was aware that he could have, and considered that he might well come down on the side of conviction in the Senate. And if he had come down on the side of conviction in the Senate, Trump would have been convicted and Trump therefore would have been precluded from running for office again. So Trump, certainly the second Trump term is in Mitch McConnell's, was in Mitch McConnell's hands and is on Mitch McConnell's head.
- [45:10]
Michael Wolff
Well, and I'm sure that's true from the Republicans. I think a lot of Republicans hate him, too, and of course the Democrats, because he held up the appointment of Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court, thus delivering. Who was he delivering at that point? Was it Neil Gorsuch? But delivering the beginning of the conservative court and of course his hostility to Obama once they won back the Senate in the midterms after Obama's first, well, during Obama's first administration.
- [45:44]
Joanna Coles
I mean, that's certainly true. My gut, though, is that the hatred here, and it's a hatred among Republicans, I mean, Republicans. There's a not so secret underground of Republicans who would have breathed an incredible sigh of relief if Donald Trump had been convicted and if there was no second term of, of, of, of Donald Trump. And they couldn't do this because Mitch wouldn't do it.
- [46:14]
Michael Wolff
So there's a whole conspiracy theory that Mitch McConnell is essentially on life support. He's in the hospital, they're keeping him alive. So there's no need for a special election in Kentucky where he's still got his seat until November. The election in November, special election in
- [46:32]
Joanna Coles
Kentucky would produce another Republican.
- [46:36]
Michael Wolff
Well, except that Andy Beshear, your friend who's the governor of Kentucky, a Democratic governor in a red state, gets to appoint the senator.
- [46:47]
Joanna Coles
Except that's not true. Except for the fact that that is not true. He doesn't get to a point that he doesn't get. There has to be a special election. That was actually the law change a couple of years ago precisely in anticipation actually of this.
- [47:04]
Michael Wolff
So in theory, Andy Beshear, who's the governor, Democratic governor in a red state, has demanded a public health update. He's been hospitalized now, Mitch, for three weeks. And the governor has finally said, what's going on here? We need some kind of progress report.
- [47:28]
Joanna Coles
Yeah, I mean, but to no real point. I mean, I guess the point is transparency. And one has the right to know. And certainly that would be the side that you would want to, especially the Democratic governor would want to be on, the Democratic governor who is himself likely running for president. So this is a bit of posturing, because the truth is that if Mitch is dead or incapacitated or whatever, the standard would be that you have to, in Kentucky, you have to call a special election that would result in another Republican. So the issues here are not, are not really all that meaningful. There is not going to be any change in the nature of the Senate if Mitch McConnell, if there has to be a special election. So I really think it is a person that Mitch McConnell comes out of this. As a truly hated figure because of, because he did not stand, could have stood in the way. He did not stand in the way of Donald Trump's reelection. And the irony here is, of course, that Mitch McConnell hated Donald Trump and Donald Trump hated Mitch McConnell.
- [48:57]
Michael Wolff
And I'm sure Elaine Chao, Mitch McConnell's wife, also hated Donald Trump. She was his transport secretary. She also worked for under George Bush. And of course she had a sister who died in a terrible scenario where she was in a Tesla which went under water. She by accident backed into a piece of or a body of water on her property, and ended up dying. Couldn't get out of the car after spending the evening with some girlfriends. And Elaine Chow, who is herself the daughter of a billionaire, has been in China since her husband's been ill, which has led to all sorts of conspiracies. And Marjorie Taylor Greene, clearly anxious and fulminating for attention and missing her platform in Congress, has been saying that it's very clear that she's a spy and that this is all very odd indeed. And Laura Loomer, who we know is the President's sort of whisperer of certain things, has been telling everybody that Mitch is now in a persistent, distant, vegetative state. So with friends like Laura Loomer and Marjorie Taylor Greene, what more do you want?
- [50:06]
Joanna Coles
And this is becoming a kind of theme. Well, we don't have three yet, so it's just two. Three makes it a theme. But this coming on the heels of the New Jersey Congressman, Tom Keene. Tom Keene, who was mysteriously in the hospital for. Or mysteriously out of commission for weeks and weeks.
- [50:32]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. He missed 146 votes.
- [50:35]
Joanna Coles
Yes. And who has just returned to announce that he was suffering from depression and had been, as we used to say in New Jersey, institutionalized.
- [50:47]
Michael Wolff
Can you think of any other job where you disappear for three weeks? Nobody knows what's happened to you, and then your mate. So John Thune, in this case Senate Majority Leader, says, it's all good. I spoke to him. He's absolutely fine. He's absolutely fine. I mean, if you disappeared from the podcast, Michael, that would make no sense. If you disappeared from the podcast. And I called and said, well, where's Michael? Where is he? And someone said, oh, he's absolutely fine. He's absolutely fine. But you just disappeared. You would be. We would stop doing the podcast. How is it possible that these politicians get away with this? No wonder people feel that they're not represented properly. No wonder no one can do this in a job. No one can just disappear for three weeks.
- [51:36]
Joanna Coles
You know, I'll bet CEOs often disappear
- [51:40]
Michael Wolff
for not without telling their shareholders what's wrong with them.
- [51:46]
Joanna Coles
You know, I would not be so sure about that. But I mean, the John Thune thing is interesting because if Mitch is dead or in a vegetative. Vegetative state or in some other way incapacitated, and John Thune has said, I spoke to him and he's fine, well, the disparity there is going to be pretty hard to spin. A matter of fact, so hard to Spin that. I would think that actually, it probably is. There is probably some way. John Thune knows that there is some way to spin this, that Mitch is probably not in great shape, but he'll emerge to walk with two people supporting him on each side, and. And he'll wink or something or blink or. And that will be a stand in for a living, Mitch. Otherwise, I don't know how Jonathan could have said that.
- [52:57]
Michael Wolff
Well, Jon Thune said, I spoke to him, which he may well have done. We don't know that Mitch McConnell. And very specifically, they didn't say Mitch McConnell spoke back. I mean, John Thune might have said, mitch, I've been told you can hear me. It's John, your friend. We're all rooting for you. We don't know that Mitch responded. I hope your friend, Governor Bashir gets to the bottom of it. Do you think he stands a chance running for the Democratic leadership?
- [53:26]
Joanna Coles
Well, I think. I mean, my friend. My friendship is based on a dinner in the Hamptons. The politicians come through the Hamptons because this is where the money is. And occasionally I get invited to a dinner with a politician. Why? I'm not sure, because, believe me, the money does not come from me. But. And he.
- [53:49]
Michael Wolff
I think you're probably one of the interesting guests.
- [53:52]
Joanna Coles
And he was. No, I mean, I found him a very, you know, reasonable and approachable and, and intelligent and all of the good things that you can. That you might say about a man who was going to assume an administrative driven, policy driven office. And that, I guess, is good. But the other side of that was he was boring to a fault. Spoke in policy paragraphs. It was like, you know, everybody. I mean, it was a small dinner, but everybody looking at their watches or checking their phones.
- [54:41]
Michael Wolff
Oh, that's not good. So he was boring to a fault. So he does all the things that you want a serious president to do, but he's too boring to be elected.
- [54:50]
Joanna Coles
Yeah. So, I mean, and I think that is the thing. That's the moment that we are in. Logically, you would say, what does it matter if he's boring, if he has a command over the job, if he's a reasonable person, if he has thought this through, great. But that's not the reality. The reality is that you want to, you know, a PTSD drunk.
- [55:19]
Michael Wolff
Oy, oi, oi. Well, we also want proof of life videos of Mitch McConnell, so if you have one, let us know. No, please. So we will be back on Saturday to discuss a question that both of us are very vexed by. Which is, has Donald Trump won the Epstein files? So we're going to get into that on Saturday.
- [55:43]
Joanna Coles
Have they beaten the rap?
- [55:45]
Michael Wolff
Has he beaten the rap? We have a ton of limericks. I discovered an entire email channel which I didn't know about, which has got loads of limericks in it, but I've just chosen one for today and this is by Alexandra Corker Hamill. I love the Beast Nightly and Daily. The elephant rather acts snaily. I join in the laughter about guys they are after and wish we would have an Old Bailey. Old Bailey being the symbol of justice in here.
- [56:17]
Joanna Coles
It must be a British limericist.
- [56:21]
Michael Wolff
I think it's a British limericist. Well, if you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast if you haven't. We're independent media. The reason we can bring you the email these conversations is because we are genuinely independent and your support makes a huge difference to us. You can become a friend of the Beast. You can be a Beast Tier member with all sorts of benefits, but please subscribe if you haven't. And big thanks to our production team. Michael, take it away.
- [56:50]
Joanna Coles
Ryan, Rachel, John, Neil, Heather and Max the intern. Max the intern.
- [57:02]
Michael Wolff
So the good news is we have so many Beebeast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.