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- [00:00]
Joanna Coles
Choice hotels get you more of what you value.
- [00:02]
Michael Wolff
Comfort Inn.
- [00:04]
Joanna Coles
It's calling your name.
- [00:07]
Michael Wolff
Save on the stain.
- [00:09]
Joanna Coles
Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim.
- [00:12]
Michael Wolff
Bookdirect@choicehotels.com this was an obvious effort to intimidate me through a GoFundMe page. We raised over $800,000 to fund this lawsuit, scaring the bejesus out of Melania and her lawyers. The day before yesterday, they have filed for sanctions against me and my lawyers. Now, what this will mean is they will lose in district court, they will appeal to the 2nd Circuit, they will lose there, and then they will appeal to the Supreme Court. That is true Trump law in a nutshell. Delay, harass, intimidate, exhaust, and avoid testifying at all costs.
- [01:10]
Joanna Coles
Michael. Joanna, if, as you watch this episode, the lights flicker on and off, I am not having a private disco in the studio. There's work being done on the electric. So bear with us if you happen to be watching this.
- [01:24]
Michael Wolff
The electricity in the Hamptons is very reliable.
- [01:30]
Joanna Coles
Exciting morning today. We are 271subscriptions away from hitting 700,000 subscribers, Michael. And we started less than a year ago, so this is all very exciting.
- [01:46]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, impressive.
- [01:48]
Joanna Coles
Well, and I just want to remind people, Please subscribe to the Daily Beast. We are independent media, so we appreciate your support. All sorts of tiers of membership that you can avail yourself of. I'm Joanna Coles of the Daily Beast. And you are?
- [02:05]
Michael Wolff
Michael Wolf. What am I of? I'm of nothing. Connected to no one, no institution.
- [02:15]
Joanna Coles
Free as a bird. You're Michael Wolfe.
- [02:16]
Michael Wolff
Free as a bird.
- [02:17]
Joanna Coles
Free as a bird that flaps its wings around the Hamptons where you live. Lucky you. But you have written four books on Donald Trump. Fire and Fury, of course, was the book that really exposed the beginnings of the madness, I suppose.
- [02:35]
Michael Wolff
But also just to, I guess, toot my own horn, here it was.
- [02:41]
Joanna Coles
That's me, too.
- [02:44]
Michael Wolff
I think it was the first book to say that Trump politics was not about politics, but wholly about character, not about process, not about the system, not about institutions, not about anything that we heretofore regarded as the. As the foundation of the US Political system. Trump was wholly about himself, his character, his needs, his motivations, and continues to be.
- [03:18]
Joanna Coles
So we're going to talk about the landmark nuclear deal with the Saudis, which appears to already be. It was signed yesterday, and already Donald Trump is changing the terms on it. We're going to talk about the latest in the Melania case because there is a development in it. We're going to Talk about Donald Trump's government demanding teenagers practice abstinence instead of getting contraception and, well, so much more. So much more. And Trump's determination to. To claim that the Democrats have become communists. But before we do, I thought we could play a clip. Let's see if you recognize. Well, you'll recognize who this is, but let's see if you recognize when it was.
- [04:03]
Michael Wolff
From friends, delegates, and fellow Americans, I humbly and gratefully accept your nomination for the presidency of the United States. Well, I know where that's from. I was there.
- [04:28]
Joanna Coles
Do tell.
- [04:28]
Michael Wolff
That's. That's in Cleveland in 2016.
- [04:34]
Joanna Coles
Was at the RNC.
- [04:37]
Michael Wolff
Yes. Which was in Cleveland. I was sitting there, and I was. Actually. This was kind of a memorable moment for me because I was sitting there listening to this, and I was, you know, with all of these people cheering around, and I was, I suppose, visibly uncomfortable or confused or certainly not. Not in the game that everyone around me, all of these Trump people, was in this incredible. And you could sense something different was happening, and you didn't know what it was, and it was scary. And I was sitting there, not cheering, probably looking rather grim. And a guy. And I now recognize him to be a MAGA guy in full, although I don't even think that kind of existed as a category yet at that moment. But he was decked out, clear, just Mr. Maga. And as I'm sitting there confused, he leaned over. He was, like, sitting right catty corner to me, and he leaned over and say, what's the matter? Does it make your pussy hurt? And at that moment, I thought, oh, my God, this is it. This is where we are.
- [06:10]
Joanna Coles
This is where we are. Well, we're now 10 years on from that, and I was gonna ask you to do something which is probably impossible, which is just. If you had one word to sum up the last 10 years, what would it be? What's Trump's legacy today?
- [06:28]
Michael Wolff
I know the word. The word I would pick is breakage. What he has done at every point, whatever existed, is break it. He hasn't certainly made it better. He hasn't solved any, actually. He has made everything that he gets involved with, every bad situation even worse. And every situation, every kind of whole set of pillars of the things that we kind of took for granted or depended on. He has broken from the relationship with. With Europe, from the world. World. The world. The larger world trade, relationships, relationship. This past week, again with Canada, that has. That has come up in, obviously, Iran. He goes into this situation and breaks. It was bad before. Now it's even worse again and again and again. Healthcare breaking it, the, the Justice Department broken every instance. It is where he has gotten involved, partly because he is just an utter incompetent. He can't do these things. I mean, he doesn't know how things work. Therefore, if he gets involved, it is not unreasonable that he is going to make whatever the machinery at hand is. He's going to muck it up, he's going to get involved, he's going to throw a wrench into the works, which he has systematically done over certainly the first administration. And now, almost two years into the second,
- [08:20]
Joanna Coles
there was a time when most of us could agree on the basic facts. Now, one headline says one thing, another says the exact opposite. And somewhere in between, you're left wondering who to trust. That's why I like Ground News. Instead of telling you what to think, it lets you compare how the same story is covered across the political spectrum. Take a recent story I've been following, haven't we all? Donald Trump's plans to renovate the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool. On Ground News, I can instantly compare how different outlets are covering the same story. It tracks which outlets are reporting on what stories, which angles are being emphasized, and just as importantly, which stories might be getting ignored altogether. Ground News features a helpful bias bar that highlights a publication's political lean ownership and reliability ratings, giving you the context that is so often missing from today's news feeds. If you're tired of outrage, algorithms and endless confusion, Ground News offers a smarter way to stay informed. Go to Ground News Beast for a better way to stay informed. That's Ground News beast. Subscribe for 40% off the vantage plan for unlimited access to world news coverage through my link. So yesterday it was announced that America had come to a deal with Saudi Arabia to have American companies go in and help them develop nuclear plants. This morning, and we're recording this on Thursday morning, it appears that Donald Trump is already changing the terms of the deal by saying it's only going to be valid. And this is after the Saudis signed it yesterday. It's only going to be valid if they sign the Abraham Accords. His shifting ground on deals doesn't seem like new territory. But what are your thoughts on this as we head into the 10th year and first day from that moment where he.
- [10:29]
Michael Wolff
Well, I mean, it's interesting because I would say that this was another situation in which he was breaking something. I mean, the structure and the strictures that we've put on these kinds of nuclear deals. He has largely in this deal disregarded and we were creating a situation in which we might be adding another nuclear player in this region of the world. These things, the exact thing that we don't need. But then this is also now an example of he is breaking the deal, that he broke something and now he is breaking that again in record time. Extraordinary. I can only assume that he got enormous blowback on this, especially blowback from the Israelis. So the Israelis are saying, oh my God, what have you done? And he's feeling that. But this is also against the background of this weird relationship, weird and profitable relationship that he has had with the Saudis. And let's remember this, that the first person, the first foreign visitor to the White House in 2017 was MBS, who was then not the top. Yes, he was warring with another one of his relatives for that position. And he made a deal, made a deal with the White House. They supported him effectively. The White House supported a mini coup which put MBS in power. Now part of the background on this curiously is that MBS was being advised in his understanding and navigation of Trump and the Trump White House by Jeffrey Epstein. So a whole other subtext goes on there. But then of course we also know that that also the Saudis, I should add that was the first foreign trip to Riyadh. The Entire administration in 2017 packed up and went to Riyadh and was celebrated in this fantastic way. And of course Jared Kushner, a pivotal person in the first White House and the President's son in law and once again a pivotal person in, in navigating all of the issues of the Middle east, actually a broad array of all issues involving the United States and its foreign policy at this point left the first White House, started an investment fund with $2 billion from the Saudis Affinity Partners.
- [13:51]
Joanna Coles
He also in this second administration, despite the fact that he and Ivanka are riding it out because I think they couldn't cope with the sort, the drama around it all.
- [14:02]
Michael Wolff
Well, also because this is, it's much easier to make money when you're outside of the administration than inside.
- [14:08]
Joanna Coles
Although not for Donald Trump, because it turns out that Donald Trump is making plenty of money inside the administration, which was something that perhaps Jared and Ivanka couldn't quite have imagined even they couldn't have imagined the level of their father and father in law's grift. Had they known that, they might have stayed involved more. But what I find amusing about them sitting in Florida, staring out at the ocean, which we addressed last week, as Ivanka told everybody how she started her day with a 90 minute meditation and all the things she's grateful for and a little prayer. Would that we.
- [14:44]
Michael Wolff
Can I just interrupt there? Cause I watched that again. Cause it's so extraordinary. And I found a key flaw in it.
- [14:57]
Joanna Coles
Go on.
- [14:57]
Michael Wolff
What is the flaw? And actually let me give credit, it was my wife Victoria who found identified the flaw. She talks about in that breathy princess, Disney princess voice about dropping her children off at school and then going to the beach and watching the sunrise. And Victoria said, hey, what time does that school start? And it's totally true. School does not start before sunrise.
- [15:29]
Joanna Coles
Right. Unless you're in Florida. Maybe they send their children at five in the morning when it's still dark.
- [15:35]
Michael Wolff
And do we think that would be likely? No. Cause teachers don't arrive. So it's that thing. She just made all this up. This makes no sense. It's just blah, blah, blah that comes out of her Disney princess mouth.
- [15:50]
Joanna Coles
Her Disney princess mouth. Well, what I love is that she and Jared, by building this luxury resort on an island in Albania which has hitherto only really been known for its flamingos, is that they've literally caused the biggest protests against corruption in Albania since the Second World War. That's how provocative this will be.
- [16:14]
Michael Wolff
Also a resort in Albania financed by the Saudis.
- [16:18]
Joanna Coles
So. Right. So there you go. So if you're looking for somewhere to go in three years time, Albania, an island. There used to be flamingos there owned by the Trumps. You know, you might want to book early is all I'm saying. So Michael, I want an update please, on Melania. What's happening with Melania, the lawsuit? Just give people a line of background so they know why you are suing the first lady in what is really an unprecedented suit.
- [16:51]
Michael Wolff
The first lady and her lawyers, or the first lady and White House lawyers, threatened to sue me for a billion dollars for discussing her relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. I am not the only person who has received that threat. Almost anybody who brings up the subject receives that threat. And many people have capitulated to that threat threat and agreed to apologize and retract. I didn't. And what I did, on the advice of my First Amendment lawyers, who I've been working with for many, many, many years in my career, is that this was an obvious effort to intimidate me to not say what I had the perfect right to say. So in New York State there exists laws against that. You can't use the law to intim someone to shut down free speech. So we sued under Those laws. And as someone in the White House said to me, well, nobody here saw that one coming. And in addition, we raised, through a GoFundMe page, we raised over $800,000 to fund this lawsuit, scaring the bejesus out of Melania and her lawyers. So we have now gone through. I mean, this has been a real adventure for me in Trump law, how these people use the courts to solve their problems, to protect themselves, and to frustrate all of the claims against them. And let's remember, this is a background of Donald Trump, who has been in litigation for the better part of his life.
- [18:59]
Joanna Coles
Right. Of his life.
- [19:00]
Michael Wolff
And so this case winds through. We sued in state court. They moved it to federal court. They got before a judge who has ruled against us on some of these issues, which we are now appealing. But as an offshoot, a tributary of this, and this is what's going on now. The Trump, Melania, and the White House lawyers have asked for sanctions against me and my lawyers. Now, they went into court to discuss this with the judge overseeing this aspect of the case. And the judge basically said, this is ridiculous. And if you file these sanctions, the likelihood is that I will rule against them. And you, you provide a reason for my lawyers to sue them for sanctions. So you would think they would have their tail between their legs, but instead, they actually have gone through. This happened yesterday, the day before yesterday, they have filed for sanctions against me and my lawyers. Now, what this will mean is they will lose in district court, they will appeal to the 2nd Circuit, they will lose there, and then they will appeal to the Supreme Court. And of course, nobody knows what's going to happen there. But the larger point is that they will have added months and months and months to the legal calendar and countless expense. So that. That is Trump law in a nutshell. Delay, harass, intimidate, exhaust, and avoid testimony, testifying at all costs.
- [21:00]
Joanna Coles
Well, as your co host on this podcast, I can. And I wish they'd called me first, I can assure them that any attempts I have made to harass you, intimidate you, exhaust you, or avoid you have completely failed. And people. People should hear the conversations we have before we hop on and start recording. Inside Trump's head. There's a lot of texts that fly back and forth as we're suggesting topics for conversation. And the point of this podcast is that we.
- [21:31]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. So if you think we're the Bickersons on air, you should hear us off air.
- [21:35]
Joanna Coles
Absolutely. You should hear us. But the point of this particular podcast, for anybody new Joining us is that we have a conversation. We have the sort of conversation that we would have if the two of us were sitting in the coffee bar round the corner from the Daily Beast offices. And, well, all I can say is that we are all watching. And so many viewers and so many listeners have texted and commented and emailed their support for you in this remarkable case.
- [22:05]
Michael Wolff
Really, it's been extraordinary. I mean, there are tens of Thousands, well over 20,000 individual contributors who have put up up this substantial sum of money. And I realized from the beginning, as soon as we got into this lawsuit, the main legal challenge would be to outlast them. And that's a resource issue. And right now, we have enough resources.
- [22:36]
Joanna Coles
I wonder if AI now becomes actually a new arrow in the quiver of people taking on Trump. Because, of course, part of this is financial resources for lawyers, but I'm sure there are four people, the resources on AI to actually come up with strategies to beat.
- [22:56]
Michael Wolff
You think, you think AI is gonna. Is gonna put lawyers out of business? You know, that's. That's something I wouldn't count on.
- [23:02]
Joanna Coles
It's gonna put some lawyers out of business. First Amendment lawyers are probably the least likely to be put out of business, but I think it's certainly going to put contract lawyers out of business.
- [23:12]
Michael Wolff
Well, let's look at that. The thesis there would be that lawyers are going because of AI. Lawyers are going to make less money. Somehow I doubt that.
- [23:25]
Joanna Coles
You know what? If you put a contract through AI and ask it to summarize it for you, it does it incredibly effectively, and it saves you an hour of your lawyer's time.
- [23:37]
Michael Wolff
I have never seen a circumstance in which lawyers make. Make less money.
- [23:41]
Joanna Coles
That's funny. Well, we can ask any lawyers listening or watching this comment. Is Michael right? Are you making less money? You know who is having less of something? Or at least they're being advised to have less of something. That is the nation's teenagers who are being told in a very Nancy Reagan type echo, they're being told not to have sex. Young men are being told that if they are spontaneously aroused, they should learn methodology to handle it. And the government is overhauling teen pregnancy programs. They're closing some of them down.
- [24:24]
Michael Wolff
Well, let's just understand more dramatically where this comes from. This comes from the Trump administration. This is Donald Trump advising the world's young men and women to follow abstinence over gratification. Let me say this again. This is Donald Trump, a man whose entire life, every single aspect of it, has been not only about gratification. But let's be very precise about grabbing them by the pussy. And this would be the second time I've said that word, a word that I would never otherwise say in this podcast.
- [25:12]
Joanna Coles
Can you also just. My favorite anecdote. And then we'll come back to this teenage pregnancy program and the cutting of them and this new message of abstinence in a second. But my favorite anecdote when you were at the RNC in 2016 is about Peter Thiel. Peter Thiel, who becomes an important, incredibly important character in J.D. vance's life. And we're going to talk about J.D. vancey's book. I should just tell people we're both stuck at the same page. We're both stuck on page 100 of Communion, but our pledge to each other is to try and at least get a bit further so we can talk about it in more detail on Saturday. But there was a moment where Peter Thiel is standing on stage. You have two ladies in front of you, and can you remember the conversation that they had? If you can't, I can't.
- [26:02]
Michael Wolff
I cannot.
- [26:03]
Joanna Coles
Okay, well, Peter Thiel is standing there, and you are describing it. You're calling me when you come back from the rnc and you're like, I'm like, tell me every single thing about what happened. Give me all the color. And you say that Peter Thiel gets up and starts talking, and one lady turns to the other and they're kind of classic Republican. What it would. I mean, classic Republican blue rinse ladies, who I think are trying to wrestle themselves into supporting Trump. And one of them says to the other, who is this? And the other woman says, he says he's gay. And then they just carry on regardless. But at that moment, Peter Thiel's only use, I think, to the Republicans was the fact that he represented the LGBQT contingent.
- [26:50]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, well, he was actually. He was a Jared person. He was introduced into this, into the Trump world by Jared. He was obviously the only Texas tech guy at that point who was willing to be a Trumper, who was, you know, so Peter Thiel was genuinely the first tech guy in a wave of tech guys who would convert to Trumpism and MAGA ism and come out and
- [27:29]
Joanna Coles
support him at the inauguration and then sit around his table as the tech gods and then be invited to sit at Windsor Castle with him.
- [27:37]
Michael Wolff
But he was. And actually, I had discussed Trump when I had interviewed Trump somewhat before the convention. And I had asked him about Peter Thiel, and he memorably responded, who, of
- [27:52]
Joanna Coles
course, he memorably responded, who?
- [27:55]
Michael Wolff
And then I said, you know, the tech. I always said. He said, one of Jared's friends. Yeah, yeah.
- [28:01]
Joanna Coles
All right, so let's come back to this idea that Donald Trump is practicing or is asking his followers to practice abstinence.
- [28:11]
Michael Wolff
Well, you know, I mean, I think that this probably goes. First thing, this is going to be uncomfortable for Trump, and he really is not on that scale. I mean, Trump is, in his own way, a monumental hypocrite. Of course. And actually, in his own way, he is not a hypocrite, because he regularly undermines these kinds of things. Yes, he has to support abortion, but he makes fun of that all of the time of him having to support abortion. And me, he says, me, can you believe it? And then is always trying to dilute that message. So here we have this new policy initiative from the White House. Abstinence, Abstinence. Donald Trump becoming a poster boy for sexual abstinence, which is just extraordinary.
- [29:21]
Joanna Coles
Well, except that now he's post sex, as you say that.
- [29:25]
Michael Wolff
Yes. Well, I think. You think maybe at this point, since Donald Trump apparently is no longer having sex, then nobody else can have it. That is also a possible way to look at it.
- [29:35]
Joanna Coles
That's actually what struck me, that he might miss having sex, and so no one else is allowed to have it. It also struck me that Melania perhaps was behind this, and she's trying to. She's trying to influence Barron. And then, of course, you have the Tate brothers, who were arrested in Miami this week on behalf of the English authorities who want them extradited on 56 charges of truly horrible, egregious accusations of rape and sexual trafficking and pornography of children. I mean, it's all horrible.
- [30:08]
Michael Wolff
This also is in juxtaposition to the manosphere, which is basically, have more sex, procreate, you know, and of course, do whatever you want to do and keep. And make women your subjects, I think,
- [30:28]
Joanna Coles
subject women to violence.
- [30:30]
Michael Wolff
But let's go to the politics of this, because one of the things that I think is going on here is a sense of panic about the right wing, about what's happening there, about the breakup of this dissension in the MAGA ranks and how that might affect one of the key. The key parts of the Trump base, which is the religious right, the evangelical right. So this is another thing. I think this is saying we're sending a message to them. We love that. They love this abstinence thing. Send that message. We are still there. We are still on their side. We are still of like minds here. So forget Tucker Carlson and forget Joe Rogan and forget anybody else who's trying to suggest that. There is a significant fissure in the movement. Go back to the basis, the basis to the religious right, which is all generally about sex.
- [31:44]
Joanna Coles
Yeah. And this is particularly frustrating because actually the educational programs that have been going on for the Last sort of 30 years have been impactful in terms of the birth rate among girls, 15 to 19 dropping. And they've actually dropped, I've got some figures here, by 65% during the time the programs have been in effect to 11 births per thousand in 2025 from 34 births per thousand in 2010. So why you would want to reverse that trend by a curriculum that they're referring to is sexual risk avoidance. I do not know. Because boys.
- [32:27]
Michael Wolff
Wait a minute, Wait a minute. I just told you why. I mean, let's not pretend that there isn't a clear rationale here that this is not just, you know, stupid people saying things to other stupid people. This is. They have a political problem.
- [32:42]
Joanna Coles
I understand they have a political problem. But. But young men don't want to be financially in hock to babies that they didn't want. And neither do young women and neither do families.
- [32:56]
Michael Wolff
There's two different things here. There's. Obviously the logic of this is totally ridiculous. And everybody who, who is even advocating these positions in the White House, I'm sure, is rolling their eyes. But the reason to do it, I mean, the reason to do it is not. Has nothing to do with, with, with, with solving the problem of teen pregnancy or of. It doesn't have anything to do with anything except the politics of this. And that's the, the interesting thing to peel back here. What are they worried about? Why are they doing this? And they are worried about their base, their constituents, which J.D.
- [33:43]
Joanna Coles
vance is clearly sucking up to in a major way in his new book. Though I very much doubt that anybody in the base is actually going to read the book because it's a bit
- [33:51]
Michael Wolff
of a slog, you know, And I want to get back to. Let's table the JD Discussion because I think it's good because one of the other interesting things about it is JD Becomes a Catholic and the evangelical base are not Catholics. But, but save that.
- [34:11]
Joanna Coles
Okay, well, let's do the same. We'll come to that on Saturday.
- [34:15]
Michael Wolff
Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at Mintmobile.
- [34:36]
Joanna Coles
Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms. All right, so Trump also seems to be, I mean, he went after John Ossoff this week, who had two fantastic moments during the hearings, one with Pete Hegseth this week as he's demanding an extra 35 billion for his, his war. And last week, as we mentioned, against Jay Clayton when he asked Jay Clayton if it was, wasn't it humiliating that he couldn't just say that Donald Trump lost the 2020 election and Jay Clayton, you know, who's got a great reputation as a prosecutor in the Southern District of New York, was made to look extremely foolish and very sweaty by the very cool Jon Ossoff. So Trump has gone after Ossoff. And we've got a clip here.
- [35:29]
Michael Wolff
You're terrible. Senator John Ossoff, he's. And the Democrats in Congress are voting with the communists every single time. They're afraid of the communists. You look at it now, I was, I fought ourselves before, as you know, and we won. We had a great success against this guy. He reminds me of Pinky Herman. Do you ever see Pinky?
- [35:57]
Joanna Coles
I mean, who, who is Pinky Herman? What is he talking about? He hasn't even read his own Truth Social. Last week, after the filleting of Jay Clayton, Trump posted a picture of Pee Wee Herman and Jon Ossoff, who don't look remotely alike, but he actually posted that. But he obviously doesn't have any idea who Pee Wee Herman is. And so he just. Pinky Herman. But obviously John Osso off. This is such a boost for him. Nothing could be better than having Trump directly target you.
- [36:31]
Michael Wolff
No, as I know I've often courted Trump's ire for precisely this reason. But it is this interesting thing. I mean, this goes to the dearth of message on the part of the Republicans and the Trumpers. What are they doing? They're calling people communists. I mean, I mean, I think for a large portion of the, the electorate, the electorate certainly under the age of 50, you start to say communists. Communists. What, what? Weren't they, weren't they someone in history? I mean, I, this is, you know, certainly when, when, when I Grew up, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s, Reagan. That was a, that was a potent slur. But it certainly, but I don't think it has been since then. Now, clearly the point that he's trying to make is the rise of the left wing Democrats, their success, at least their success in primaries and the success of Mamdani in New York, and that they are aligned with the socialists, the Democratic socialists. They got some claim of being socialists themselves. That's what he's trying to get at, but I don't even think he gets that. And to suggest that by linking them to communists, I think this confuses everybody and is again one of those instances where Trump exists in decades gone by. Roy Cohn was Joe McCarthy's henchman. And Joe McCarthy, of course, came to power saying there are X number of communists in the State, State Department. And that was. He demonized the whole generation of American politics, politicians and terrorized the whole generation of American politicians over the possibility that they would be the subject of this accusation and slur. But this was, what are we talking, 80 years ago? So is it 80 years ago? Well, yeah. Oh, I guess almost 80 years ago. And that's where Donald Trump lives. So to suggest that this, he's going to turn this into you're a Communist, into something that's going to resonate in this coming to the 2026 midterm elections. You know, I mean, I can't help thinking that he has misread the room.
- [39:28]
Joanna Coles
Well, he may well have misread the room and maybe it's part of the aging process where as people get older, and of course we know that his father had dementia and his symptoms of dementia started showing up when he was 80, which is what Donald Trump is now, he's now in his ninth decade, is that you tend to remember the past more clearly than you can remember what happened yesterday. You can't remember what you had for lunch, but you can remember what you had for lunch in the early 60s if you're Donald Trump's age. So it may be that age is just creeping up with him and all these.
- [40:03]
Michael Wolff
Well, yeah, I mean, I just, I tend to think it's more from a political point, more serious than that, which is to say they don't have a message. They're, you know, this again, they are flailing. I mean, this is like abstinence. We gotta do something. Something. What, what, what do we do? We see these numbers. Everybody sees these numbers, these midterm numbers. Donald Trump is among the least popular presidents in modern history at this point. And what is he going to do? And they're trying to do something, but they have nothing to do. Abstinence, communists. I mean, all of this, they're just grabbing onto anything. It's, it's from, it's from another time. And I've seen the people around him, how they react because he says they're communists and everybody goes, yeah, well,
- [41:00]
Joanna Coles
I like that new noise, Michael. That seems like a new something that we could harness on the podcast.
- [41:06]
Michael Wolff
It is a kind of thing within that, the people in the White House also appreciate the fact that, that he is old and it's not necessarily dementia, but it is a frame of reference that he can't update. I mean, he is. And I think that's probably for many old people. My children accuse me of this, of living in a cultural moment that has little relevance at this particular time. And then that becomes more glaring against somebody like John Ossoff's incredibly, I mean, a young, up and coming man in politics, rather than as juxtaposed to Donald Trump, an old and declining man in politics.
- [42:02]
Joanna Coles
Yes, as you said last week, John Ossoff has certainly shot up the list of potential Democratic candidates for 2028. And if you haven't watched him grilling both Jay Clayton and Pete Hegseth this week, you really should. I mean, he is so calm, he's so on top of the material. So often you see people in that situation, senators or congresspeople, checking their notes, they're kind of reading. And his ability to look up and to have full command of the material just felt very, very compelling.
- [42:35]
Michael Wolff
I think we should begin to think and begin, because this is now gonna start to change very rapidly, the Democrats who are potential contenders, and we should really stay on top of that because it's obviously, it's important, but it's also dramatic, the rise of these people. I think Mark Kelly is also on a fast trajectory up now, but certainly Jon Ossoff. Ossoff. Mark Kelly, incredibly interest.
- [43:06]
Joanna Coles
Yeah, Mark Kelly, the senator from Arizona, married to Gabby Giffords, of course, who was shot in that terrible. Who was a congresswoman when she was shot at. A regular surgery of hers. So I wanted to. Mitch McConnell is still, as far as we know, alive. He's in a hospital in D.C. but in an interesting development, and I was just curious to get your perspective as a writer on this, McConnell's hometown newspaper, the Louisville Courier Journal, one of their columnists, Joseph Gurf, decided that he would write a pre obituary on the grounds that after Lindsey Graham died, so many people came out and said things about him and a lot of it was softened because he just died and he felt that. Oh no, I'm gonna say what I think about Mitch McConnell. So I'm just going to read you a paragraph from his pre obituary. But then I wanted to talk to you about the trend of pre obituaries. Is this something we're going to see more of? So this is about Mitch McConnell. First is his cynical and hypocritical manipulation of the US Supreme Court confirmation process that over a four year period shifted the court from a center right body to a far right body that overturned 60 years of case law on civil rights and nearly a century of law that empowered Congress to check a president's power. And then he goes on to say in the process McConnell has destroyed the court's credibility with the American people. What do you think of the idea of writing pre obituaries so that you're freer to write the more critical stuff?
- [44:51]
Michael Wolff
Well, I've never shied away from disparaging the dead, but.
- [44:57]
Joanna Coles
Of course you haven't.
- [45:00]
Michael Wolff
But my last book, was it my last book? I think it was my last book.
- [45:04]
Joanna Coles
The last book was the Fall.
- [45:06]
Michael Wolff
Yes. And that begins with an obituary of Rupert Murdoch who is of course the Fall is about Fox News and Rupert Murdoch controls Fox News.
- [45:18]
Joanna Coles
And Rupert Murdoch, we should point out, is still.
- [45:20]
Michael Wolff
Rupert Murdoch is 90. Yes, he is still alive at 95, but not for much longer.
- [45:28]
Joanna Coles
Well, you say that, but his mother lived till, what was it? 104?
- [45:32]
Michael Wolff
103. But even that, even if he does go from 95 to 103, well that is still not much longer.
- [45:40]
Joanna Coles
No, there's a lot of damage you can do with Fox News in the next nine years.
- [45:46]
Michael Wolff
Well, also the chances of a 95 year old living to 103, do I have to point out, are almost non existent.
- [45:56]
Joanna Coles
Is that true? I imagine that Rupert Murdoch has the best healthcare a billionaire can buy.
- [46:02]
Michael Wolff
Joanna, how many people live to 103?
- [46:05]
Joanna Coles
Well, increasingly more than they did 26 years. Not that many.
- [46:08]
Michael Wolff
Yes, this is that he won't live. Rupert's dead. You know, you can clock him in months at this point, not years.
- [46:17]
Joanna Coles
Okay, well, we'll see. We'll see. All right, so. So we have a poem this week from our producer's father. This is from Dan Murray, who's the father of our long suffering producer, Ryan Murray. There once was a jet.
- [46:32]
Michael Wolff
Do you think he suffers?
- [46:34]
Joanna Coles
Who? Ryan definitely suffers. He suffers every morning when we start flying back and forth with texts about what we are and aren't going to cover. Do I think he suffers? Yes. He's looking at me now kind of sheepishly. There once was a jet meant to soar, but delays kept extending the chore. Each new target date just arrived fashionably late when the old bird kept flying once more. I love the old Air Force One. I love the weird pale blueness of it. So unexpected. It's such a generous democratic color. And I hate the sort of bogus pomposity with which the new plane has been decorated.
- [47:16]
Michael Wolff
Well, and we also note that the new plane is out of commission now. So, again, in terms of Trump breaking things, Air Force One worked well. It protected presidents, and Trump went out, got himself a new plane with a weird provenance. And it doesn't work well with a weird provenance.
- [47:44]
Joanna Coles
It was gifted to him from the Qataris.
- [47:47]
Michael Wolff
Exactly. But you don't know the provenance. And who made this plane? What's in this plane? What did they do to this plane? What is their motivation for giving that. Giving him this plane remains all an open question.
- [48:05]
Joanna Coles
Well, it would be ironic, although one, of course, never wishes for this, but it would be so deeply ironic was something to go wrong with of this plane, because Trump's glee over the plane, his determination to keep.
- [48:18]
Michael Wolff
Something has gone wrong with the plane. They've taken it out of commission. He's not allowed to ride on this plane. And that's a very interesting thing. I mean, there's a. That's how bad it is that Donald Trump is. I mean, he theoretically has the power to overrule the Secret Service, but. Oh, but very theoretical. I mean, the Secret Service has basically come and said, you know, we cannot protect you if you ride on this plane.
- [48:47]
Joanna Coles
So what's he going to do? Right?
- [48:50]
Michael Wolff
So they put. They took. They took the plane out of commission.
- [48:52]
Joanna Coles
They took his toy away from him. Well, I'm sure it'll be back soon. We'll be back on Saturday. Talking about J.D. vance's book, if we can actually struggle our way through it, we literally both stopped at page 100 and we were like, oh, this is hard work, but I'm determined to get there. But at the moment, all I can glean from it is the level of JD Vance's ambition and determination to make something of himself, which is a very American story and to be applauded.
- [49:18]
Michael Wolff
Well, I'm interested in the theological underpinnings of this. So tune in on Saturday to an exciting discussion about is there anything less likely to be about Christianity and the historical fissures in. In Christian consciousness, do you think?
- [49:44]
Joanna Coles
I can't think of anything less likely to make people turn into a tune, into a podcast than us talking about J.D. vance. I was listening to his interview with Joe Rogan, which I mentioned, I think, on Tuesday, and I've just got to the bit where he talks about demons and how he believes that demons are among us. Demons walk among us. I think he might think of you as a demon, Michael.
- [50:09]
Michael Wolff
That's because I'm a Jew.
- [50:12]
Joanna Coles
Oh, interesting, interesting. Do you think he bought his new $9 million house in Virginia with money from the book? Do you think he's feeling emboldened by book sales?
- [50:23]
Michael Wolff
Well, that's a lot of money for a book. I don't think that book, this book is going to do that kind of business. But the first book did a really. A substantial business.
- [50:35]
Joanna Coles
Well, and it got made into a movie, so.
- [50:39]
Michael Wolff
But did he make more money in his literary life or in his hedge fund life?
- [50:44]
Joanna Coles
Well, well, I think it was a VC life. And he was only there for two years because the thing that characterizes J.D. vance is he doesn't have any sticking power. He does everything for two years. This will, if he gets to the end of his vice presidency, that will have been the longest commitment in employment in this man's life. Two years as a senator, not very long as a vc, he's just kept moving. Well,
- [51:09]
Michael Wolff
that may be the recipe for how you get to the top.
- [51:12]
Joanna Coles
Well, let's see if he does get to the top. Right now he's swinging his legs from the chair just underneath the top. All right, if you have been. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. I hope by the time we come back on Saturday, we've hit 700,000. That would be a good, really milestone for us. And Michael, why don't you thank the team.
- [51:32]
Michael Wolff
Ryan, Heather, John, Neil, Rachel, thank you.
- [51:38]
Joanna Coles
So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.