This Is The Truth About Hegseth's Bizarre HRT Plan

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

The Daily Beast Podcast
Episode: This Is The Truth About Hegseth's Bizarre HRT Plan
Host: Joanna Coles
Guest/Regular: Michael Wolff
Date: July 17, 2026

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Overview

In this lively, incisive episode, host Joanna Coles and regular guest Michael Wolff dive into the controversy surrounding Secretary Pete Hegseth's new plan to screen military personnel for testosterone deficiency and offer hormone replacement therapy (HRT) shots—including to women. They explore whether this policy is performative, politically motivated, and what it reveals about the current MAGA-driven approach to leadership and masculinity in the Trump orbit.

The conversation quickly intersects with current political dynamics, notably the ongoing Attorney General hearings for Todd Blanche, revealing deep concerns about the politicization of the Justice Department, the normalization of "ridiculousness" in politics, and Trump’s persistent delusions about the 2020 election. A range of topics, from Trump's approval ratings to AI data center scandals and ICE enforcement controversies, provide rich context for reflecting on America’s political and cultural climate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hegseth's Testosterone Testing Plan: Policy or Political Theater?

[01:00 – 08:05]

• Michael Wolff breaks the story: Secretary Pete Hegseth is launching a mandatory testosterone screening program for U.S. military personnel—offering HRT to men and women with "deficiency."

  "Our most decisive tactical advantage will always be the individual warfighter... Ensuring you have the right testosterone levels to operate at your absolute best." – Michael Wolff (quoting Hegseth, 03:12)

• Joanna and Michael mock the performative masculinity:

  “To offer them shots of T, as it’s known in the bro-o-sphere, if they need to be more ‘man.’” – Joanna Coles (03:47)

• Joanna raises Hegseth’s record: earlier, he canceled compulsory flu vaccines, leading to an outbreak; now, he treats the military as his “personal trainer.”

  “He’s obviously found out he’s got low-T and so he’s prescribing it for everybody else.” – Joanna Coles (05:29)

• Is it presidential posturing?

  “He is speaking with this directly to the Trump bro base. Because if he wants to run for president, that's where he has to begin.” – Michael Wolff (05:52)

• Joanna links Hegseth’s strategy to the rising influencer "manosphere":

  “Right. So Andrew Huberman, Joe Rogan, Theo Von… this is him throwing down his... the first of his gauntlets.” – Joanna Coles (07:17)

• Michael: Hegseth is “not a serious man… he is a ridiculous man,” but in today’s politics, that “doesn’t mean he cannot use his utter ridiculousness as a political platform.” (09:23)

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2. The Politics of "Ridiculousness" in the Trump Era

[08:05 – 10:07]

• Joanna: “He wouldn’t be the first ridiculous man to be a contender for president.” (09:55)
• Michael: “No, I think ridiculousness seems to be a prime calling card. Well, it used to be a disqualifier and now it’s definitely a qualifier.” (10:02)

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3. Attorney General Hearings: Todd Blanche & Personal Loyalty

[10:07 – 26:35]

• Review of Todd Blanche’s performance in the Senate confirmation hearing:

  • Blanche slips and refers to himself as “the President’s personal lawyer.”

    “I am the President's personal lawyer. Oops. Oopsie.” – Joanna Coles (11:27)

  • Michael observes the Trump administration’s view of the DOJ as Trump’s personal law firm:

    “The Attorney General is not the personal lawyer for the people of the United States, but instead is the personal lawyer for the President.” – Michael Wolff (11:33)

  • Democrats missed strategic opportunities:

    “If they had merely asked him...whether or not he was pro choice or pro life, that would have been the thing which would have dinged him...” – Michael Wolff (25:39)

• Cornyn’s dilemma as a holdout vote: risking Trump’s wrath or yielding to practical pressure.

• Discussion of Blanche's transition from Democratic circles to the Trump orbit; the Faustian deal for career advancement.

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4. Jay Clayton & National Intelligence: The Loyalty Oath Continues

[26:35 – 32:10]

• Clip of Sen. Jon Ossoff grilling Jay Clayton on the 2020 election, exposing the ritual humiliation Trump’s appointees face:

  “You refuse to answer a basic question about who won a presidential election… to have to indulge the President's delusions.” – Jon Ossoff (26:50)

  • Michael: “Jay Clayton...functionally delusional. The whole Trump ecosystem, the whole Trump government is forced to pay obeisance to...Donald Trump's delusion...” (29:39)

• Trump’s upcoming “Save America Act” speech expected to double down on election denial, setting the stage for further chaos in the coming midterms.

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5. Trump’s Standing: Polling, Forever War, and Russia Drama

[32:10 – 39:53]

• Trump’s approval is at historic lows, with only certain right-wing demographics still expressing strong support.
• Coles and Wolff remind listeners that Trump had fallen to “Nixon-levels” of disgrace; his comeback is remarkable but he is again “deeply, deeply unpopular.” (33:49, 35:29)
• ICE shootings and controversial “vehicle stops”—Susan Collins’ vulnerability in Maine due to immigration enforcement disasters.

  “...masked men in the streets shooting people...this is not going to help [Susan Collins].” – Michael Wolff (37:46)

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6. AI Data Centers and the Politics of Tech

[39:53 – 43:33]

• AI data centers are springing up nationwide, often to local opposition due to their size and energy consumption.
• Joanna: centers are needed to “win the AI race”; Michael: “He’s made a deal with tech guys, they give him money.”
• Both agree it’s a major, under-discussed scandal, and the association with Trump doesn't help their political standing.

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7. Media Dilemmas & Trump’s “Save America Act” Speech

[43:33 – 46:39]

• Networks face a dilemma: whether to air Trump's speech reiterating 2020 election denial.

  “Why are the networks broadcasting? They don’t have to, but they appear to all have agreed to do this.” – Michael Wolff (44:18)

• Expectation is Trump will use the platform to push the controversial bill, potentially to his party’s detriment.

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8. Senate and Political Succession Oddities

[47:28 – 51:58]

• Strange conventions: Lindsey Graham’s sister filling his Senate seat for a "stub term."

• Candid personal questions for Wolff about his younger ambitions and professional introspection.

  “Am I where I wanted to be?...All these questions haunt me.” – Michael Wolff (49:57)

• Behind-the-scenes of sourcing and favor-trading in political journalism.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [03:12] Michael Wolff (mocking Hegseth):
  “A test for test, a test for test.”
• [05:52] Michael Wolff:
  “He is speaking with this directly to the Trump bro base...if he wants to run for president, that’s where he has to begin.”
• [09:23] Michael Wolff:
  “Pete the Hagers is not a serious man. He is a ridiculous man...But that doesn’t mean he cannot use his utter ridiculousness as a political platform.”
• [11:27] Joanna Coles:
  “I am the President’s personal lawyer. Oops. Oopsie.”
• [29:39] Michael Wolff:
  “Donald Trump on this point has become functionally delusional. And the whole Trump ecosystem, the whole Trump government is forced to pay obeisance to this.”
• [44:18] Michael Wolff:
  “Why are the networks broadcasting? They don’t have to, but they appear to all have agreed to do this.”
• [47:59] Michael Wolff:
  “He may not be wheelable yet. He may not be, you know, I think it’s probably in he’s straddling the compos mentis line.”

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• 01:00 – 08:05 Hegseth’s testosterone screening plan and speculation of presidential ambitions.
• 10:07 – 26:35 Todd Blanche’s hearings, the politicization of the DOJ, and party loyalty.
• 26:35 – 32:10 Clayton refuses to acknowledge 2020 election results; implications for intelligence leadership.
• 32:10 – 39:53 Trump’s falling popularity; ICE shootings impact on political fortunes.
• 39:53 – 43:33 AI data centers: scandal and grift.
• 43:33 – 46:39 Networks' quandary on airing Trump’s “Save America Act” speech.
• 47:28 – End Senate succession conventions; Wolff’s personal reflections.

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Tone & Style

Clever, wry, skeptical, and sharply analytical, Coles and Wolff trade informed, sometimes scathing observations with a conversational intimacy and dry wit. The episode skewers political bravado, especially the new frontiers of performative masculinity and the crumbling notion of policy seriousness.

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Useful For:
Anyone following 2026 U.S. political dramas, the intersection of some very personal "culture war" politics with real policy, and the media’s challenge in covering a relentlessly performative presidency.

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If you want more like this, subscribe at thedailybeast.com.

Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

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[Joanna Coles]

That's it.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Joanna Coles]

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[Michael Wolff]

It's not just for men. The women are also going to have their testosterone levels measured. I think actually the Hagers is running for president. There's a sort of a fundamental political strategy or view in the MAGA sphere or in the Trump world, which is that culture is politics. If he wants to run for president, that's where he has to begin a test for testosterone. And that's going to be very popular with the supplement set. Certainly he is the bottom of the pack of the obvious list that you might make at this point. But if this begins to catch on, then he's got himself a race. Michael Joanna.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, I have a personal question for you before we turn to analyzing the Blanche hearings, before we look at Trump's polls, before we look at the Jay Clay hearings, I have a much more pertinent question which I've never asked you as a friend. Are you high T or Loti?

[Michael Wolff]

You know, there's many measurements in life that I'm not up to date with. So this, this has just come across my consciousness as of yesterday that there is such a thing and that one could be such a thing. And in fact, it is not just a male thing that that question also applies to you. So maybe we should go together and have a. Have a test.

[Joanna Coles]

But we should have a test.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm not sure I want to find out the answer Although, as you noticed, I'm in sort of in military. Military dress today.

[Joanna Coles]

You are in military dress. So for people who have no idea what we're talking about. Well, first of all, I'm trying to.

[Michael Wolff]

I have no idea what we're talking about, so I'd like to.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, well, that, that change there then. I'm Joanna Coles, this is Michael Wolff. We are talking about Pete Hegseth's decision to test men in the military for testosterone levels and then offer them shots.

[Michael Wolff]

Our most decisive tactical advantage will always be the individual warfighter. We have a sacred duty to maintain that advantage, which is why we must constantly look for new ways to optimize your, your performance, your resilience and your long term health. And to meet that commitment, today I'm authorizing a new screening program for testosterone deficiency for our service members. Ensuring you have the right testosterone levels to operate at your absolute best. A test for test, a test for test.

[Joanna Coles]

And to offer them shots of tea, as it's known in the burrowosphere if they need to be more man. Are you man enough to serve in the. This is our Secretary of Forever Wars.

[Michael Wolff]

Also for women. It's not just for men. The women are also going to have their testosterone levels measured.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm not sure there are any women left in the American military. It's because Pete is so concerned about the health of the American military and the power of the individual warrior. And as he said, we want to take care of each of them.

[Michael Wolff]

Just, just let me interrupt a second because I think that that's actually wrong. I mean, there may be fewer and fewer women in the leadership, but the, but the military itself, the enlisted men in the military are significantly women too. Like I believe upwards of 40%.

[Joanna Coles]

Yes, yes, yes, I was, I was being facetious. But, but what's so bizarre about this decision is that earlier in the year he canceled flu vaccines, saying it was preposterous to give military members compulsory flu vaccines. There was then promptly an outbreak of flu at an Air Force basic training camp that sickened hundreds of people and actually one person died from it. So the flu vaccine's promptly been reinstalled. So either he's converted back to vaccines or he is treating. And here's my suspicion, he is treating the military as his own personal sort of training camp. We see endless videos of him doing push ups and pull ups and pushing sleds. He seems to use the military as his own personal trainer. He's obviously found out he's got Loti and so he's prescribing it for everybody else.

[Michael Wolff]

I have a different view.

[Joanna Coles]

Of course you do.

[Michael Wolff]

I think actually the Hagers is running for president and this is, you know, there's a sort of a fundamental political strategy or view in the MAGA sphere or in the Trump Trump world, which is that culture is politics and it is always better to hit the cultural note rather than the political or the policy note. So he is speaking with this directly to the Trump bro base. Because if he wants to run for president, that's where he has to begin. He has to be appeal in some kind of identity, charismatic fashion to those kinds of people, you know, whether they're the manosphere people.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, the people, the ufc. Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Dana White group of people. And you appeal to those people not with traditional politics, not with immigration, not with going to war with Iran, really, you know, with going to war with Iran, but with these cultural markers. And that would be, this would be one a test for testosterone. That's, that's, that's going to be very popular with the supplement set.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. So Andrew Huberman, Joe Rogan, Theo Vaughan, as you say, the manosphere. And of course can't be ignored that JD Vance was out doing a three hour podcast with Joe Rogan this week. So perhaps Pete Hegseth thinks that Marco Rubio and JD Vance are ahead of him in the talk about 2028 and this is him throwing down his. The first of his gauntlets.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, I would say less of a gauntlet than literally a hat in the ring. So, you know, how are people going to respond? I mean, he is not, you know, he is, he is coming from. Certainly he is the bottom of the pack of the obvious list that you might make at this point. But if this begins to catch on, then, then he's got himself a race.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I mean, what's remarkable is the way he's come out saying that we care for our warriors. We, you know, want to look after our warriors. War comes down to the individual warrior, which of course is completely untrue these days it comes down to who's got the best drones at the moment. But I just want to remind people that Hegseth led two veteran nonprofit advocacy groups. There was Vets for Freedom and there was Concerned Veterans for America. And both times he left in ignominious situations. There were whistleblowers that said he was frequently intoxicated at work, that he created a hostile work environment, especially where women were concerned. This is not a man who cares about veterans. This is a man who cares about himself. He's also, you know, as we know, he's had enormous problems with alcohol, often when you can't drink anymore in the office, which I'm sure it's much harder for him to drink at work. And he promised people during his own hearings that he wouldn't drink if he got the job. That addiction goes somewhere else, that craving goes somewhere else. And so feels to me like it's gone into exercise, which is why he's always posting videos of himself doing pull ups and now it's going towards injections of testosterone.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you assume that he's not drinking, which I think is a big assumption. But Pete the Hagers is not a serious man. He is a ridiculous man. I think virtually everyone knows this. I think virtually certainly everyone within the military knows this. But that doesn't mean he cannot use his utter ridiculousness as a political platform. So. And I think that's what, well, that's what we ought to keep watching here.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And of course, he wouldn't be the first ridiculous man to be a contender for president.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I think ridiculousness seems to be a prime calling card.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. Well, it used to be a disqualifier and now it's definitely a qualifier. So your friend Todd Blanche, how did you think he did in the hearings yesterday?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you know, I thought he did okay. I mean, a few obvious missteps. But for his from, I mean, he went into this in a completely difficult position. I mean, he should have been taken apart. He was, however, defended almost to a man by the Republicans and the Democrats. I thought their attacks on him were largely on the weaker side.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, the most interesting moment, I think came from an interaction with John Kennedy, the Senator from Louisiana. And we have a clip of it here. Are you and President Trump friends?

[Michael Wolff]

I'm his lawyer. Was his lawyer and now I'm the Deputy Attorney General. So I met him as his criminal defense attorney. I'm not sure there's very many people who have ever had a criminal defense attorney who calls that person their friend. I now have a. Well, let me put it this way. Are you enemies? No, we're not enemies at all.

[Joanna Coles]

No. I am the President's personal lawyer. Oops. Oopsie.

[Michael Wolff]

That was the point that people were trying to get at, but somewhat ineffectively. But it is the, the basis of how to look at Todd Blanche, which is to say that, that he has, that this, the job of the Attorney General of the United States has under Donald Donald Trump, been converted into his personal lawyer. The Attorney General is not the, is not the personal lawyer for the people of the United States, but instead is the personal lawyer for the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and it was interesting. It was John Kennedy who I don't think was trying to trip Blanche up there. I mean, Kennedy so effectively took Kristi Noem apart and really led to her being fired. Here. It seemed he was trying to understand the relationship between Blanche and Trump and got a bit more than he expected.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I think Todd tripped over that, because I think. And it was a. You know, I think that this was a pretty classic Freudian slip. He is Trump's personal lawyer. He sees himself as Trump's personal lawyer. He understands the job of Attorney General is to be Trump's personal lawyer. And he recognizes that his success in this administration is wholly dependent on him defending, above all else, the interests of Donald J. Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

I thought your point about the Democrats questioning, I agreed with it. Senator Whitehouse from Rhode island had a couple of good moments, but actually the other more challenging moments came from another Republican, John Cornyn, who we've talked about a lot on this podcast, because he's the senator from Texas, he's outgoing because he opposed Trump in various things and got primaried by Ken Paxton, a Trump candidate, and is no longer going to be in the Senate. So he could, in theory, be a holdout vote. What did you think of his questioning of Todd Blanche?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I thought it was, you know, good, stronger. Still not the kind of question you have to understand how weak Todd Blanche is or how vulnerable Todd Blanche ought to be. And you can go down a series of policies, both in pursuing Trump's enemies, Trump's personal enemies, trying to ensure. Trying actually to get money for Donald Trump on an individual basis. And of course. And of course, the whole Blanche's position in the whole Epstein matter, I mean, there is weakness after weakness after weakness. But fundamental to this is that he basically is not the Attorney General in the United States, but in that role, he seeks to be Donald Trump's lawyer. And I think that you could have gone back and understood that there is a. You can fundamentally see this as a plot. I mean, even, you know, in its own particular way, a conspiracy. That. That the plan was always. The Donald Trump plan was always to take over the United States Justice Department. Fundamental to how Trump sees the presidency, how fundamental to how Trump sees the. The fact that he was voted out of the presidency, that the Justice Department, the United States Justice Department, has become for Trump an instrument of his revenge and of his ability to stay in power. So, and. And with, with, with, with Blanche in the catbird seat of that plot.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I was rereading chunks of all or Nothing, your last. And you raise this very issue. And we have discussed on this podcast and we have stayed on Todd Blanche as a character, Boris Epstein, the lawyer who's really come up with Trump's legal strategy. And I'm going to read a bit from it. Actually, it was Boris who painted a sky's the limit picture of the opportunities for Blanche. Boris billed this as an effective legal partnership between them and their sole client being Donald Trump. Boris had the relationship and he assured Blanche Trump's absolute trust. And Blanche had a top of the profession reputation, a scarce commodity in Trump's circle. Blanche, in his view, was on a plausible trajectory to the top of the Justice Department. Put aside that at least until recently, he was a Democrat and probably a pro choice one. And Boris to control of the White House legal portfolio. Put aside that he was a named co conspirator, ever on the verge of indictment himself, and always a prime candidate to flip on his boss. That's Boris Epstein. This was enough of a sell for Blanche to walk out on his partnership when Cadwallader, the company that he was working with, balked at representing the former president. It was a life overhaul, brass ring plan. I mean, when did you write that? Two and a half years ago?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I wrote that before they had gotten into the White House.

[Joanna Coles]

So this whole premeditation, I mean, it's an interesting thing.

[Michael Wolff]

And I think part of the reason that Todd might, Blanche, might in fact, slip through is that he's always been regarded in Washington by the media as a kind of functionary. He wasn't the first Attorney general. That was Pam Bondi. As, as you will recall, though, it's so easy to forget these people. And, and so he was just there as a kind of a, you know, a Trump minion, when in fact he is, has been, has been central to the Trump plan all along, which I saw, I mean, because I was so involved in, in, in following the campaign and particularly following the trials, Trump's trials, and which Todd Blanch was one of the central figures, really. He became the central figure in defending Donald Trump. And then it was fascinating to watch his transformation from functionally a Democrat in New York working at a big firm to into this Trump orbit. And then you could kind of see how this happened. You know, he was at a big white shoe firm, but, you know, never really accepted by the firm because he did criminal work and he went to Brooklyn Law School. And was a kind of a middle class guy, married at 20, a grandfather by 40, outside of the circles of the white shoe, Ivy League circles. And I think that made him very responsive to Boris Epstein, who was his original client, coming along and saying, hey, you could be the Attorney General, we could do this. We could make this work for us. The only thing we have to do to make it work for us is make it work for Donald Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

Wow. Well, remarkable insight to think that Donald Trump would get elected at a point when nobody else thought he would get elected. And he may well be the Attorney General, as you say. I mean, Cornyn at the moment is thought to be the holdout. If you were Cornyn, do you think Cornyn gives in at this point? Do you think he risks being an even bigger enemy of Donald Trump?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, here's the reality that Cornyn is going to have to, I'm sure, is dealing with as we speak is that even if Todd Blanche is not confirmed as the Attorney General, he will continue in his role as the acting Attorney General. If Trump fails to nominate a new candidate for the Attorney General's position, then Todd Blanche continues to occupy it. So, and that becomes, for someone like Cornyn, you know, potentially threatening. You know, I mean, we know, we know that Donald Trump has used the. The United States Justice Department to pursue his enemies. And so Cornyn is in the middle of this. Do I incur the wrath of Donald Trump and the. The Justice Department directly? The Justice Department. And what might that do to me? And that begins to affect not only Cornyn himself and his family, but his supporters and his political ecosystem in Texas. So he's going to be feeling pressure from those people. Put it aside. Yeah, Trump is a prick and. And Blanche is Blanche, but we don't want this. Let's just let sleeping dogs lie. So that's what Cornyn will be dealing with right now?

[Joanna Coles]

No, I was trying to imagine the conversation that Cornyn would be having with his family. And I'm sure there are people urging him to vote against Blanche and then others saying, you know what? In November, you'll be free. You can join boards, you can make some money. There are all sorts of things you can do antagonize Trump anymore. Why do you need to. You're leaving the Senate. Leave this behind you. Politics is a fool's game at this point. Or whether or not he wants to stick it to Trump. And then, of course, there's the question of, does someone worse come in? I mean, of course, yes, I take your point that Blanche remains in an operating role within the doj. But does someone come in, in theory over him and making, I don't think,

[Michael Wolff]

first thing, I don't think that there is anyone worse than Todd Blanche. And not that Todd Blanche is an evil person. I mean, I think he's actually somewhat of a reasonable, recognizable, intelligent guy. But he has made this Faustian pact very clearly fully aware of what he's doing. He's, he's, you know, he's, this is the life changing moment for Todd Blanche. And it just depends on one thing, keeping the boss happy. And in Todd Blanche's mind, the rationalization is, is in fact, Donald Trump is the client. That's what he does. He's a lawyer. I, I, I work for my clients. And the fact that he doesn't see this as working for my client, the United States of America, but working for my client, Donald J. Trump is of course, the rub. But it is an effective rationalization for Donald Trump and Boris Epstein. And together they have, believe me, they have reached heights which they never imagined in their wildest dreams they would get to.

[Joanna Coles]

So these hearings are often for an audience of one, that is Donald Trump, in this case, perhaps an audience of two, Boris Epstein and Donald Trump inside Trump's head, which is exactly where we are, in fact. What do you think Trump thought of Blanche's performance?

[Michael Wolff]

I think that he thought it was probably pretty good. I'd say that he was happy with it. And I do think that Blanche was good. I think he managed to deflect everything in a kind of Trumpian way. Answer nothing directly deflect, fall back on some highly particular, literal interpretation of the law. And I think that I'm pretty sure that Trump would say, okay, yeah, that was a good day.

[Joanna Coles]

I thought he seemed controlled. And if you compare it to the performances of Kristi Noem or Pam Bondi, he seemed highly in control and, you know, had a sense of humor a couple of times. And even the victims turning up in court, the Epstein victims turning up in court, didn't appear to throw him when asked if he would meet them. He came up with some legal gobbledygook about, oh, you know, I actually can't meet them, but I'll have someone who's qualified from the DOJ meet them. I mean, it felt all nonsensical, but I thought he was surprisingly good. And the Democrats, for the most part, were surprisingly unaggressive with him.

[Michael Wolff]

I just want to get in one more thing because this is something, a suggestion that we made to the Democrats and obviously they Completely ignored. But it would still would have been fundamental, which is to say Todd Blanche, if they had burnished Todd Blanche's credentials as a Democrat, which he has spent his life as a Democrat. If they had merely asked him if his record on the abortion issue, whether or not he was pro choice or pro life, that would have been the thing which would have dinged him because it would have created a rebellion within Republican ranks. What do these Democrats do? I just hit my head every day. The obvious things are so much in front of them. Where are they? Heads in the clouds. I don't know. Unprepared. You got me.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, there was another simultaneous hearing going alongside for Jay Clayton to take over from Tulsi Gabbard as head of National Intelligence. We have another clip from that hearing.

[Michael Wolff]

Who won the 2020 election? You know, I'm not, I'm not going to do this with you. You refuse to answer a basic question about who won a presidential election. But you asked to lead America's intelligence community. Isn't it humiliating to be unable to answer this question, to have to indulge the President's delusions? We know, you know, everybody in this room knows the truthful answer to that question. Why can you not know? Give it.

[Joanna Coles]

I think I gave you the answer so good. John Oss, the young senator from Georgia, big hopeful, certainly imprinting himself then.

[Michael Wolff]

And I think he just shot up in the, in, in the, in the. That. That list of Democratic contenders that is now in, in formation. And he just shot up to quite a number of spaces, I'd say in that.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, it was so good that we know, you know, this entire room knows the President's delusion, which of course the President will be addressing tonight on television.

[Michael Wolff]

I just want to make one other point because it's an interesting point on, on the Jay Clayton side of, side of this that he would not be. Have been prepared for that question. I mean, he was clearly, he didn't, he was not, he did not literally did not have an answer to that question, even an obfuscating answer that avoided answering the question. He was unprepared, unscripted at that point. How could that have been? And I can only think that it was because it's such a, because there is no answer. I mean any man, any person with any kind of self respect could just can't bring himself to think about that question. And the result is that he got caught out and looked even worse. But his real answer is, and I think you could read that was, come on, we all know that Donald Trump didn't win this election. Don't make me say it, because that's so embarrassing. And Donald Trump is gonna fire me if I.

[Joanna Coles]

And Donald Trump is watching if I

[Michael Wolff]

come remotely close to saying what I believe here. So I'm just gonna look like a fool.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, it was humiliating. It was humiliating for him to sit there and not be able to acknowledge it. And the audience was humiliated on his behalf, I think.

[Michael Wolff]

But. I think. But it also goes, of course, to the. To the. You know, to a fundamental pillar of this administration, of the second Trump administration, which is Donald Trump's insistence on the fact that continued assistance, that the 2020 election was stolen from him. And I personally believe that it is Donald Trump's actual belief that this happened. I mean, it is not true. Of course it is. And no one else virtually in the entire world believes it to be the case. But Donald Trump on this point has become functionally delusional. And the whole. The whole Trump ecosystem, the whole Trump government is forced to pay obeisance to this, to Donald Trump's delusion here, as Jay Clayton is forced to do. But this is even more serious, of course, and there is a speech that he will deliver today, tonight, which is apparently about his belief that American elections are being stolen, stolen from him. And he is going to couch this. He has a piece of legislation, the Save America act, which he has, I mean, basically stop the business, stop Republicans from doing anything else until they pass this piece of legislation, which they have told him repeatedly there are not the votes to pass. Doesn't make any difference. Now, this is, of course, against the midterms coming up very quickly now, which he will very likely do very poorly in. And so his response to this is not a question. It's not policies, it's not trying to shift his stance, his unpopular stance on numerous issues. It is rather to set up a situation in which he can challenge the election. I wrote a little song to remind you. Choice hotels get you more of the experiences you value. The Cambria Hotel's got it all.

[Joanna Coles]

A rooftop bar, have a ball, cocktails up here.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Joanna Coles]

Right. Well, if you look at his approval ratings at the moment, they are on a par with when he left office in 2021 and his supporters stormed the Capitol. There's a Washington Post Ipsos poll out this morning which shows a new low of 15% who approved strongly of Trump and that's down from 19% in February. 22% approved somewhat so very low approval ratings. His approval among self identified independents remains at 26% with only 6% strongly approving, while 71% disapprove. So his only voters really are. He's unpopular across a range of sociodemographic groups, including men and women of all ages, education, income and racial groups. Among the exceptions, his approval rating stands at 50% among rural adults, 53% among white men without college degrees, 57% of white Catholics and 70% white evangelical Protestants.

[Michael Wolff]

And just focus on this, that these numbers are the numbers he had when he left the White House in, in early 2021, January 2021. And just as we were having this discussion about Blanche, I too went back and looked at my own book, always a revelation. And I remembered, which is so easy to forget. But I mean my own descriptions frankly are pretty vivid. How washed up and wiped out Trump was at that point in time. I mean he was, he was at a level which, I mean, I, I don't know how much this means to most people, but it certainly means an enormous amount to people of my age. He was at that Nixon level, finished a disgrace. We want. And this was also true within the Republican Party, broadly within the Republican Party, we never want to hear from this guy again. And, and so it, which is also a measure, fascinating measure of the, of Donald Trump's accomplishment, right, to have rescued himself, to have risen from that bottom. But, but in Trump fashion, he always returns to it and has returned to it again. This is a deeply, deeply unpopular figure in the country. Possibly the most unpopular figure.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and more unpopular with his forever war. I mean, of course Pete Hegseth renamed himself the Secretary of War as opposed to the Secretary of Defense. And now you just want to slip in forever war. So he's the secretary of forever War. Donald Trump is the President of forever Wars. And Iran, which is being, you know well, will be voted on at the gas pump, as we, as we've talked about before, may well be his, the moment from which he can't recover.

[Michael Wolff]

Or we can call him the President of Hormuz.

[Joanna Coles]

The President of Hormuz. We should do that.

[Michael Wolff]

So tonight he's going to give a speech about, about, about elections, why elections are corrupt, why there have to reforms in these elections which would give him an advantage because everything else is going so wrong. And let's just go to this ice shooting in Maine, for instance. I mean, one of the least popular elements of all of the unpopular aspects of this Presidency is that you have masked men in the streets shooting people. And you know, there, there has been this effort, of course, to kind of mask that Minneapolis, it's kind of like, okay, Minneapolis, that was bad. Let's, let's, let's see if we can, if we can smooth that over. Let's not, we still want to continue to deport as many people as we have, but let's try to avoid shooting them. And, and of course you're not going to avoid shooting them. This comes shooting them is part and parcel with having masked men in the streets who are untrained, who have to enforce quotas. And, but even that then, I mean, I felt, I thought this was, this was kind of extraordinary that, that this has happened in me. And this happens basically because they stopped, they stop people in automobiles, right?

[Joanna Coles]

They do car, the vehicle stops, as they're called.

[Michael Wolff]

So they, so then they announced after, and after this shooting in Maine, and by the way, the shooting in Maine is directly impact Susan Collins. That's a key seat. They have to get that Senate seat. And this certainly is not going to help her because she has reliably voted for the two to, for these policies and to keep funding ice. But at any rate, they, they did, the administration did do a slight mea culpa and say, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna curtail the traffic stops. But then who comes out and says, no, we're not gonna curtail the traffic stops. I want more traffic stops. There's Donald J. Trump again, shooting himself in the foot. I mean, it's just fascinating to me. Why would he do this? What is in his head to make him do this? And what is in his head? I know what's in his head at this point. It's people telling him he shouldn't do

[Joanna Coles]

it, so he's doubling down.

[Michael Wolff]

That overrides any politics here. The idea that there would be an outcry and he would have to respond to this and bend to it is not going to happen.

[Joanna Coles]

And the shooting in Maine was the second shooting in a week. There was a previous shooting in Houston where, like the person who was shot in Maine, it was a mistaken identity. They had the wrong person. And in both cases, they said the driver was trying to use the car as a weapon. In the Houston situation, there's no video of it. There's video of it in Maine. And Susan Collins came out and said, please stop these vehicle stops. This is not, this is not a good thing. Of course she's doing that, but she's hanging on for dear life up in Maine, depending on who, of course, replaces Graham Platner. But it's a mess. It's a mess.

[Michael Wolff]

That's not the only. Okay, that's ridiculous. Why would Trump. So why would Trump not take the, take the easy way out there? But then there's this other aspect. So there is this, this issue, kind of a fascinating issue of these AI data centers which are, which are blossoming across the country because AI needs so much power, ruining communities. I mean, just these, these faceless, faceless buildings, windowless, consuming acres and acres and acres and in communities across the country. And people are saying, hey, you know, we don't want these in our town. This is a, this is a really volatile political issue. So what has. And it's across the board, bipartisan. Nobody wants this. Literally nobody except Donald J. Trump wants more data centers.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I think the reason he wants more data centers is to ensure that America wins the AI race. Right?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I, no, I don't think that that's the reason at all. I think he wants it because he is, you know, he's made a deal with the tech guys, they give him money and, and he's in business with them.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. But that's part of wanting America to win the AI race. I mean, yes, of course there's going to be some grift attached to him, you know. Undoubtedly, undoubtedly. But there is a genuine reason for needing data centers to power the AI companies.

[Michael Wolff]

So I should read this, that you're. This is your defense of the AI industry.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, if you look at what's happening in the stock market, it's being held up by the seven big tech companies. AI companies are part of that. They need data centers to power them. I'm sure you're using ChatGPT or Claude

[Michael Wolff]

or whatever, as little as possible. And I am actually against these data centers. I think it's a terrible thing. I think it guts communities across the country. I think, I think the entire AI, I mean, I mean, this is not thought out. We don't know what's going on here. We don't know what this is or what it's becoming. This is, this is. Add to our many scandals. This is also maybe the leading scandal. So. And I think people's, people's response to these data centers is not only because they're a blight, but because of what they stand for. So I think it is a powerful political issue. I think it's an issue which is visceral and emotional and reasonable. And it may well, again, one of Those other things that politics may turn on. And it certainly doesn't help, by the way, the data center AI side of things that it has now become a proxy for Donald Trump. This is going to be an extremely busy month. I have to watch 104 soccer games, follow the pre game, the post game, yell useless opinions at the tv. It's a lot. So I knew that when it comes to screening for colon cancer, the choice was clear. The Cologuard plus test. It can be used at home and can only take 15 minutes. So I can do it during halftime and not miss any action. If you are 45 or older and at average risk, ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with a Cologuard test. You can also request a [e-mail] so

[Joanna Coles]

let's take on the data centers in a following episode. I just want to go back to the speech that is going out this evening. In fact, at the same time as, as we're going out. How do the networks navigate this if Donald Trump insists he won 2020? I mean, this really presents an unprecedented issue for them as they try to figure out how did they give the President his time, but also let the audience know the election was, you know, there were 90 different cases in the courts over election fraud, and there was no election fraud. He didn't win 2020.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, so the question, I think there are a couple of questions. Why are the networks broadcasting? They don't have to, but they appear to all have agreed to do this. So that would indicate that there has been a negotiation that has gone on, that they are, that they are satisfied at some level that they're not going to be embarrassed and humiliated by what the President is going to say. That does not guarantee that he will say what he's told them that he will say. So that's a wild card there. But I think then the other point is that they've decided that this is, you know, that they'll get good ratings on this. So whatever the fundamental controversy that's going on here will redound ultimately to the network's financial benefit. Then from a news side, you know, they'll come on afterwards and they'll say, oh, you know, you know, there's no proof, there's no evidence that the election was stolen. And they'll analyze it from that point of view. You know, so I think it's, it's fairly. I mean, let me acknowledge that they're in this difficult position that they don't know what the, what the President will say. The president has given them some assurances that he will say things that are, that they will find at least semi acceptable. And, and also, you know, their, they don't want, they don't want other networks to get the benefit of them not airing what the President's, the president's speech.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. Well, we had a piece in the Beast today saying that Republicans are scared about what Trump is going to say because, of course, we don't know if he's going to stick to a script. And it may be, you know, it may yet be Trump doubling down on something which Republican congresspeople and senators know is not going to be popular in the midterms on top of gas prices and data centers and everything else.

[Michael Wolff]

My guess is that he's going to, this is going to be part of this, his campaign for this Save America act bill. It's in his head that this has to be passed, that there's some righteousness in passing this bill, that this is what he stands for. And it is functionally one of the, you know, one of the pillars of how he believes he will have, he will find an advantage in the midterm elections. So I think he's going to double down on that, the need for this bill, why they should pass this bill, why he stands for this. And anyway, I mean, that's my, that's a pure, my pure guess on this.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. Well, we'll watch it tonight when it goes out and we'll be back on Saturday to discuss it. Do we have a sense of how fast Todd Blanche is going to be is going to get a decision?

[Michael Wolff]

I think they need Mitch McConnell in his seat, and I don't think anyone knows exactly when that's going to happen.

[Joanna Coles]

And I suppose they could wheel him in with a blanket over his knees so that he's there. I'm surprised they haven't offered to do that, knowing that this is important to the president.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he may not be wheelable yet. He may not be, you know, I think it's a probably in he's straddling the compos mentis line.

[Joanna Coles]

He's straddling the compos mentis line. All right, so we have some questions for you, not least about Darlene Graham, Lindsey Graham's sister, who earlier this week was confirmed in his seat. She's taking over until the election. Michael, can you please comment on Lindsay's sister replacing him? And that's from someone called or whose name on YouTube is Normal's Sinner.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I, I mean, I don't think that there's any way to. To justify this except to say that it is a common convention when you have a stub term and this potentially lasts only for a few months. And then there's an election, a special election in Kentucky, so the relatives of the dead guy often get to replace him for a ritual period.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, I think it's a very strange thing that. Okay, Michael, someone's saying. It would be interesting to hear what Michael may recall about the views of his much younger self. You were talking about your much younger self the other day. What were his ambitions then? I think this was your younger self when you had all that hair.

[Michael Wolff]

I.

[Joanna Coles]

What was that noise that sounded like a horse in a stable?

[Michael Wolff]

I'm stumped. This is a deep question. This is a deep question that I ponder almost every day.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. And that's. It's called. It's from someone called G. Michtrom ws There are absolutely no vowels in your name.

[Michael Wolff]

No. But doesn't. I mean, don't you say, am I where I wanted to be? Have I gone entirely wrong? Have I. Have I reached some moment that you can say, okay, I've done all right. I haven't sold out entirely, but how much have I sold out? I don't know. All of these questions haunt me.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. Well, I don't think they seem to haunt Todd Blanche at the moment. All right. And then here is a question scolding me. This is from someone called Arashtab that says, it's weird that Joanna didn't ask Michael the question when you talked about asking people in the White House to get your book admonished by Trump. And then someone called you back and said, you owe me a favor. What is the kind of favor that you would do in return for that? You discussed the situation, and someone called you and said, you owe me.

[Michael Wolff]

It's like when somebody does. Does something for you, they say, you owe me. But. And I'll. I'll expand the context here. That, that various people I know in the White House I have known for quite some time, and we have a, you know, a. I'm hesitating to say friendship, but it might be a friendship. So it is the thing that friends say to friends when they do something for you. You owe me on this one.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, a lot of people were fascinated that Lindsey Graham was a source for you. As you said, he was a source for everybody. And one of the ways that he compensated for the humiliation that Trump put him through was to actually tell tales on Trump. But that was many, many people

[Michael Wolff]

in the Trump ecosystem. Talk about Trump for. For exactly this. This reason.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, well, we'll be talking about Trump again on Saturday. We'll be back inside his head. If you have been, thank you for joining us. Wherever you get your podcast, please don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. Big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And appreciate your support.