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- [00:00]
Michael Wolff
Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
- [00:22]
Joanna
of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy.
- [00:30]
Michael Wolff
See terms my law. Yesterday, Melania Trump's lawyers, they have moved under something called Section 11. Essentially they are moving to sanction my lawyers for doing nothing more than bringing the lawsuit against Melania Trump. So this is preposterous on its face and it is just one of those things that comes with all of Trump style. Not just style, Trump's own litigation, which is you do everything, no matter how steamy, sordid and not respectable and bound to be thrown out of court. You do this stuff to cost your opponents more money and to cause delay.
- [01:22]
Joanna
Michael. Joanna, how are you dealing with the heat?
- [01:27]
Michael Wolff
I am in the Hamptons and the weather is perfect, actually. Breeze, an incredible breeze. Underlying temperature yet to break 80 today. Sweet.
- [01:42]
Joanna
Small point, but you don't look very tanned.
- [01:46]
Michael Wolff
Well, tanning is not good for you, Joanna.
- [01:49]
Joanna
I know, but normally in the summer people get a different shade. You'll buy the beach.
- [01:57]
Michael Wolff
That's called unhealthy.
- [01:59]
Joanna
Do you ever actually go to the beach? I don't think you do.
- [02:03]
Michael Wolff
I go to the beach. Not only do I go to the beach, I go to the beach every day, Joanna.
- [02:09]
Joanna
Really?
- [02:10]
Michael Wolff
I'm sure you don't.
- [02:12]
Joanna
Of course I don't go to the beach. I'm in the city working and I
- [02:16]
Michael Wolff
swim in the ocean in the. Not that cold, but it is. It doesn't really get to peak moment until, until the third week of July.
- [02:27]
Joanna
Oh my goodness. We don't even know the sea temperatures at this point. This is, I mean, when I met you, I remember we had an argument with the author, the thriller author Philip Kerr, over what was the most beautiful place in the world to live. And you insisted it was the Upper east side. And Philip was like, no, it's Venice. And you were like, it's the Upper west side. Whatever the postcode there is.
- [02:53]
Michael Wolff
You know the thing about these, having these conversations in which you are, were a participant in. Is that you remember them well. It's not that. Just you remember them wrong. You get them wrong. None of that is what happened.
- [03:06]
Joanna
It's totally what happened.
- [03:08]
Michael Wolff
And in fact, it was the other thing, because I was the one arguing that Venice was the most perfect place. And Philip, who this is Philip Kerr, is a. Is a writer who we both knew very well and. And who died several. So we can credit anything to Philip because he's no longer here. But he was the one who was. I'm trying to think, actually, where was Philip's ideal place? It was in the south of France. So this is. So every detail about that conversation you have.
- [03:48]
Joanna
Okay, I just want to say that you were the most urban Manhattan man, and you vociferously argued that the zip code 10021, was the most beautiful place to live. And now I just find it incredible that you're swimming in the ocean every day. Something's happened. Something's happened.
- [04:12]
Michael Wolff
I'm not sure how to respond to this because, as I say, you have a version of my life which is entirely. Oh, it is not entirely inaccurate, but it is, in most of its particulars, often inaccurate.
- [04:29]
Joanna
Okay. But that's not inaccurate. Anyway, we are not at the state Fair, but then neither is anybody else, so that's okay. And you've been talking to your lawyers, I hear.
- [04:43]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I've been talking to my lawyers and curiously, to the other side's lawyers, although that was inadvertent. So, at any rate, to bring you up to date on. On Michael Wirth, Michael Wolf versus Melania Trump, as it is formally known.
- [05:03]
Joanna
Wow. Michael Wolf versus Melania Trump. And we will come onto what Melania earned last year. And we should at least spend some time during today's podcast breaking out the different earnings. 208,000 for Trump Bible, the extraordinary earnings. But let's go back to your lawyer. So we're gonna. I wanna talk to you about the grift. I wanna talk to you about SCOTUS and the impacts of their decisions and the fact that Trump can basically fire anybody he wants now, apart from scotus. Oddly, they're elevating their own power as well as elevating his power. But let's start then with your. With Michael Wolf versus Melania Trump.
- [05:45]
Michael Wolff
My lawyers were in court yesterday, and we were in court to answer the other side. Melania Trump's lawyers have done something. They have moved under something called Section 11 to sanction my lawyers. Now, essentially, they are moving to sanction my lawyers for doing nothing more than bringing the lawsuit against Melania Trump. So this is preposterous on its face, and it is just one of those things, another kind of, kind of thing that comes with all of Trump, Trump style. Trump, not just style, Trump's own litigation, which is you do everything, no matter how stee, sordid and not respectable and bound to be thrown out of court. You do this stuff to cost your opponents more money and to cause delay.
- [06:54]
Joanna
Hold on a minute. Can I just ask, what does sanctioning your lawyers mean? Is it like, in other words, professional?
- [07:02]
Michael Wolff
You're, you're. Yeah, it's a procedure. You're, you're, you're asking the court to say, to make an evaluation that you have done something frivolous or capricious or there's a whole kind of, kind of litany of, of these, of, of these kind of descriptive words that you've done something that really should not have, and you are really abusing the court. And in that. And if the court finds you abusing the court, you know, they can fine you, they can hold you in contempt, they can do a variety of things. But this very, very, very rarely happens, of course, because, because this is what you're, you're in a, you're in a proceedings in which everybody is doing something that the other side side does not want them to do. The idea of this, that you have abused the court because you are suing someone is by its nature what the whole system is about. So anyway, it is therefore just the thing that you do to cause the other side inconvenience and cost and delay.
- [08:20]
Joanna
Always delay, always delay.
- [08:22]
Michael Wolff
And in fact, the judge in this case said, addressed everything to the other side and said, and said, basically, hey, you know, I can't stop you from continuing this action, but in all likelihood, I'm going to rule against it. And what you are doing is so, So ridiculous, effectively, that the other side could sue you for, ask for sanctions against you for doing this. So essentially, it was a reprimand to Melania Trump's lawyers.
- [09:03]
Joanna
Inside Trump's Head is brought to you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. You know what's wild about American history? We literally fought a revolution against a king who claimed divine authority and then turned around and wrote a constitution with no mention of God. None. No religious test, no state religion, separation of church and state. That was intentional because the founders understood something important. Freedom works best when government doesn't play favourites with religion. But right now, we're seeing more and more attempts to blur that line in politics, in schools and in public life. And when that happens, it's not just symbolic. It affects laws, rights, and who gets treated like a full citizen. The Freedom From Religion foundation is working to protect the First Amendment because it protects everybody's freedom of conscience. Visit FFRF US TRUMP or text TRUMP to 511511 to learn more and join as America approaches its 250th anniversary. This is about what kind of country we become. Next, go to FFRF US TRUMP or text TRUMP to 511-511. Remember to text TRUMP to 511-51-511 message. And data rates may apply. Okay. And who are her lawyers, Michael?
- [10:39]
Michael Wolff
Well, I mean, they're. Okay, let's, let's step back because this is, this is the really interesting point. On January 26th of this year, I got a text from the President's personal lawyer, a man by the name of Boris Epstein. And the text said, hey, team, what's our timing on the Section 11 filing?
- [11:16]
Joanna
And I'm assuming that you weren't part of the team.
- [11:20]
Michael Wolff
I was not part of the team. And now I know I am in Boris Epstein's address book because he's a frequent off the record chatterer. And to me, along with, I assume many other people, and as can happen, he was thinking about me and writing a text about me, but it wasn't supposed to go to me. But in that way that things happen, it did go to me. So we were at that point alerted that they were doing that. They were going through a Section 11 filing. Okay. You know, typical Trump stuff. But the more important thing and the larger thing is that it meant that this lawsuit, my Melania Trumpet lawsuit is, was being coordinated at the highest levels of Trump law because Boris, and Boris Epstein is, I mean, is a fascinating figure elemental to understanding the Trump White House.
- [12:29]
Joanna
And I think he was on the inaugural flight of Grift Force One yesterday.
- [12:34]
Michael Wolff
He was always trying to get on, on these flights, always wanting to be seen. I mean, this is a big thing. It's a big real estate play here. Who can on the Air Force One or on Trump Force One during the campaign, which proves proximity to the President and which proves that you have the approval of Donald Trump because he's invited you onto his plane.
- [13:01]
Joanna
Well, and also you get very specific time with him if you're on the plane with him. Right. Because you're all sort of captive. So given that Donald Trump often believes the last person he's spoken to, I imagine that's quite a useful place to be.
- [13:16]
Michael Wolff
I think it's more Symbolic, because he doesn't have to pay. I mean, these planes are extremely large, as you know, and it's never clear who's going to get time. So it's more of a perceptual thing. You are seen on the plane, therefore, that's the goal, really, to be seen on the plane. And. And then it's an in. But it also serves as an internal thing. And Boris is. Interesting aspect of this is Boris Epstein is widely and deeply hated within the closest Trump circle.
- [13:56]
Joanna
Oh, how come? Why is that? So he's. Is he now, at this point, the sort of the President's personal lawyer? Boris Epstein?
- [14:04]
Michael Wolff
Yes.
- [14:04]
Joanna
Okay.
- [14:05]
Michael Wolff
And he is more than the President's personal lawyer. He is the lawyer that essentially stands between Trump and all other lawyers within the White House and executive branch circle. And to be clear about this and to be clear about the level that he's working at, he is the person who introduced Todd Blanche, who is now the attack acting Attorney General and has been nominated to become the Attorney General. That is, he was introduced into the Trump circle by Boris Epstein. A matter of fact, Todd Blanche was Boris's lawyer before he became. Became Trump's lawyer. So those two have an integral and profound partnership, in essence. And so nothing happens within the Trump legal world in terms of what Trump is thinking, in terms of how Trump's interests are being reflected in court, in lawsuits, in any of the kinds of procedural, procedural. I'm trying to look for the words to indicate how important Boris is. And I would say he runs the
- [15:42]
Joanna
legal show, he runs the legal strategy.
- [15:44]
Michael Wolff
But more importantly, in understanding is Boris doesn't work in the White House. Boris works outside of the White House directly for Donald Trump in a personal capacity. So this is kind of extraordinary that this person who doesn't work for the people, which is to say us in. In the White House, is running the entire. Essentially the Justice Department in the United States of America.
- [16:17]
Joanna
Wow. So. And where is he based? Is he based in D.C. is he based at Mar A Lago? Where is he actually? Sort of.
- [16:23]
Michael Wolff
He's in D.C. but he's can't.
- [16:25]
Joanna
But he can't be. I mean, I hope we can flash up a picture of him. He's. He's quite young to be in this role, too. Right. He's in his mid-40s, I think he's 43.
- [16:34]
Michael Wolff
He's 40. He's 43. A Russian emigre, only practiced law for a couple of years, then became kind of GOP political operative, but really came into his own when he hooked up With Donald Trump. He became a Trump surrogate, one of the first Trump surrogates in 2015 when few people were willing to do this, go on television and say Donald Trump was a great guy and a plausible candidate, but even then disliked by the staff. Disliked by the staff because he was always trying to go around them. To Trump.
- [17:24]
Joanna
Yeah, I was going to say, how does Boris Epstein get on with or Epstein get on with Susie Wiles, she hates him.
- [17:32]
Michael Wolff
Has always been at odds with, with, with him. Matter of fact, my, my book about the campaign, all or nothing opens with a, with a scene on a zoom call of Boris comes on the zoom zoom call. He thinks his screen is, is. He thinks his camera is not on, but the camera is on and he comes on. He's a big hairy chested guy and he's, he, he comes on without a shirt and, and Susie Wiles has a flip out over this.
- [18:09]
Joanna
So he, he's not who Trump was referring to when he said, I may not have the best lawyers, but I've got the hottest lawyers. He wasn't referring to Boris Epschle.
- [18:18]
Michael Wolff
Yes. No, Abs, absolutely not. And Boris, he has a, there's a funny thing about. Because I mean Boris is. And he's also hated because, because he's regarded as a, as a sycophant, as a suck, up, as willing to say anything Donald Trump wants to hear, therefore catering to Donald Trump's worst instincts. And this is even something that, that Trump makes fun of him for. So during the, during the campaign and in, when one of Trump's setup things, and Trump always repeats these things, constantly gets a little joke, repeats it. But one of his jokes, whenever Boris would call and Boris would call, you know, speak to Trump at least 10 times a day, sometimes 20 times. In, in a day.
- [19:07]
Joanna
20 times in a day.
- [19:09]
Michael Wolff
Yes. And, and he would call and then also here, this was another something that his name was always spelled wrong on Trump's phone. But anyway, he would call. Trump would hold up the phone to whoever he was with and then he would say, oh, it's my Boris on the phone calling to tell me I've been indicted again and what good news that is. So Trump had some self awareness of the fact that Boris was just a suck up, but that doesn't really matter to Trump. That is actually becomes finally a recommendation. And Trump and, and Boris has progressively moved forward more and more into that central position. He is the president's guide.
- [20:02]
Joanna
Okay, so what I'm hearing from this is that actually diversion is Boris Epstein, the new Roy Cohn.
- [20:10]
Michael Wolff
Absolutely. Totally.
- [20:12]
Joanna
Okay. Okay.
- [20:13]
Michael Wolff
So, Roy Cohn. That's a good understanding of this. Trump has always looked toward, toward a lawyer who will do anything, who will facilitate anything. The thing about lawyers is that they basically, their currency is their own respectability. So whatever client they have, they're always protecting themselves. That's what they, they do. Their probity, let's say, is what is ultimately being traded for other, among other clients. So they can't, they can't risk that too, too much. They can't compromise that, or they seek not to compromise that. Their respectability exists independently of their clients, the disreputable clients that they might have. And Trump's lawyers function really in exactly the opposite fashion. They are willing to do this. That's the cost of working for Donald Trump. You must work entirely for him. You do what he wants to do, even if that compromises your reputation.
- [21:38]
Joanna
Right. Or even if you end up in jail like Michael Cohen.
- [21:42]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, and it's, it's a, I mean, it is that, that kind of, that kind of thing. That's, that's the, the legal principle is that the system can be, can be bent to anyone's advantage if they are willing to, to, to suffer that kind of opprobrium of the community, of the
- [22:06]
Joanna
other community of lawyers.
- [22:08]
Michael Wolff
Yes, the system is malleable.
- [22:10]
Joanna
Right.
- [22:11]
Michael Wolff
And obviously all lawyers know that. But this is, in the Trump world, that's pushed to an extreme. And in order to push it to an extreme, you have to have lawyers, and there are not too many who are willing to push it to an extreme. And that is, that's the Roy Cohn position. And now it is certainly the Boris Epstein position.
- [22:32]
Joanna
So from what you're saying, Boris Epstein is now in charge of the Trump legal strategy in Michael Wolf vs. Melania Trump?
- [22:43]
Michael Wolff
I think he's in charge of the legal strategy in any of the legal proceedings that Donald Trump has a particular interest in. So that runs the gamut of, of really Trump interest. Boris is, so you can say safely, Boris is everywhere.
- [23:06]
Joanna
Boris is everywhere. And he was certainly on Grif Force One on its inaugural trip yesterday. They released photos and there was Margot Martin and there was Stephen Chung, who we're always hearing from.
- [23:18]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. And let me. There's another, some, some interesting, other background about Boris that I think, I think sheds some light on Trump. That first thing, Boris was one of the first people after the, the 2020 election when very few people were around. Trump were willing to pick up this mantle of. The election was stolen. Boris on his own because he wasn't working in the White House at this point on his own. Flew into Arizona to begin to coordinate the, the, the challenge to the election.
- [24:00]
Joanna
Stop the steal.
- [24:02]
Michael Wolff
Yes. And Ed Boris was ultimately indicted for that. That after Trump became the president. Again, that indicted, indicted indictment was thrown out. But Boris was, There was a criminal indictment for Boris about what he did vis a vis electoral manipulation in Arizona. There was another, another thing. This is this, this is, this really goes to show how Trump's relationship to the people who are abjectly loyal to him. So in the middle of the campaign, video surfaces because Boris had been arrested in Arizona in a, in a bar called, wait for it, the Bottled Blonde.
- [24:50]
Joanna
The Bottled Blonde.
- [24:52]
Michael Wolff
So this, this video goes, goes out. It's obviously, you know, getting wide pickup. And you would think that this would have finished off his, his, his career as a significant aid to someone running for the presidency. Nope.
- [25:09]
Joanna
So his boss grabs women by the posse.
- [25:12]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. Trump just brushed it off, Right?
- [25:14]
Joanna
Of course he did. Because in fact, their fellow, fellow abusers, or at least fellow alleged abusers, if the case got dropped against Boris. But as we saw from the Supreme Court decision this week, Trump is a sexual abuser as the court threw out his efforts to have them overrule the verdict in the E. Jean Carroll case, the $5 million case. So your lawyers are, do they immediately appeal this, sanctioning this section 11? What's their response? How long does it take?
- [25:56]
Michael Wolff
So this was just a conference on this. So the judges, the other side filed notice that they are going to file on this section 11. So the judge calls all parties into court, and the judge basically said, don't do this. This is not a smart thing to do. Can't stop you from doing, but it's not a smart thing to do. Now, this goes back to the other thing that lawyers, I'm sure they will do it anyway, because it doesn't. They, their own reputational damage, their own standing in the court, doesn't matter. You do what is. You do what you have to do for Donald Trump, create, and in this instance, cost me more money or cost my lawyers my side of this more money. And, and you cause delay. So that's for them is a win. And it doesn't matter if they're going to lose this, and it doesn't matter if the judge is going to think lesser of them for doing this.
- [26:59]
Joanna
Okay. So for now, they are using section 11 to sanction your lawyers as a delaying technique.
- [27:07]
Michael Wolff
Right. And then meanwhile, just in the broader sense of this, of this lawsuit, this Judge, who's a Trump judge, in a complicated ruling in which she decided not to rule on the merits of the case, but accepted the fact that the Trump argument that Melania Trump lives in Florida. At any rate, she has dismissed the case. So that now we are dismissed the case in federal court and that is now being appealed, in which actually she acknowledged yesterday that we had gone to the Second Circuit, and it would probably not look so good for the 2nd Circuit if they, if the Trump, if Melania Trump's lawyers and the president's lawyers continued this section 11 baloney, okay, so
- [28:03]
Joanna
it's a delaying technique. And do you know when you hear, I mean, I remember that you got the decision on the judge essentially saying, we're not going to hear this in federal court the day before Memorial Day weekend, clearly trying to bury the story. What they didn't realize was we had an episode of Inside Trump's Head coming up the very next day, so we could immediately talk about it. But do you have any sense of timing here, or is this another endless. It could be any time that they come back to us.
- [28:33]
Michael Wolff
I mean, that's one of the, this kind of fascinating exposure to this process. The courts themselves are for all kinds of reasons, because they're overburdened and because, because justice is slow. Take forever. But then add to that the fact that this is a fundamental tactic in all Trump in Trump law, Trump litigation.
- [29:03]
Joanna
It's fascinating. So we had some insight into Trump's earnings this week. His $2.2 billion, much of which was made from crypto, something that in 2019, he'd said was nonsense and really didn't make any sense whatsoever. But we also had some insight into Melania's finances, too. And she had managed to monetize being first lady to the tune of 17
- [29:30]
Michael Wolff
million, which is extraordinary. I mean, it's extraordinary, beyond extraordinary, that Trump makes $2 billion on less than 18 months in the White House. But then the first lady, who literally, not only literally does nothing, she doesn't even show up, makes $17 million.
- [29:57]
Joanna
But to be fair, she showed up at the Easter Egg Roll. I saw her at the Easter Egg Roll. She turned up to deliver her. Very strange, I didn't know Jeffrey Epstein speech that threw everybody into a tizzy. Very, very strange. So she turns up. She's turned up at least twice this year.
- [30:17]
Michael Wolff
So $17 million for a handful of appearances.
- [30:22]
Joanna
And what is the 17 million from. Was the payment for the Amazon film Melania, the documentary was that counted the previous year.
- [30:32]
Michael Wolff
I'm sure that that's spread out over a bunch of years. She'll probably make 17, probably $17 million every year. This is. You know, but the interesting thing to focus on here is that of all the thing, there may be, you know, 40 million from Amazon this and that. That's money. Yet in the ether, what we do know is that she literally took, in the space of 12 months, $17 million into her pocket. And actually, I think some of that is from a meme coin. She has her own crypto action.
- [31:16]
Joanna
If I were Melania Trump and I had 17 million from one year, I would demand a divorce.
- [31:23]
Michael Wolff
Well, I guess once you have 17 million, then you look at your next 17 million and your next 17 and your next 17.
- [31:29]
Joanna
I know. It's never enough, I suppose, isn't it? I mean, it's never enough.
- [31:33]
Michael Wolff
And then since the President has made 2 billion, I suppose you look at the prospects for getting your own at least half of that. That, you know, there. There's a thing I do want to. There was a moment during the campaign, the 2024 campaign, when Trump was,
- [31:56]
Joanna
what
- [31:56]
Michael Wolff
he was annoyed with everybody for making for. For taking him to fundraisers. It just was a particular tense moment in the campaign. And there were many tense moments. And he was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to. I don't want to go to fundraisers. I don't have to go to fundraisers because, and I quote, the crypto guys will give me everything I need.
- [32:21]
Joanna
What did that mean? Meaning that as long as he relaxed regulation on crypto, he would be fine. They would just finance him.
- [32:31]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I think that that's. That's absolutely what it. What it. They had aligned their interests at that point, and the crypto guys had unlimited money and could use the presidency to make even vastly more money, of which Donald Trump is sharing. And it's not only that they're financing his campaign, they have cut Donald Trump into the crypto profits well, and also
- [33:05]
Joanna
his licensing deals have gone up. So during the time he was at Mar a Lago, they were sort of, you know, sort of 8 million, 9 million in terms of international licensing deals rapidly rose in 25. And I think the figure I saw was 48 million from the UAE for licensing deals to put his name on, you know, Trump casinos, Trump hotels, whatever else he's doing. I was amused to see that the actual Trump things that he's producing, notwithstanding the meme coins and the crypto, but his Trump Bibles had only raised 208,000 for the Trump family coffers and his gold sneakers and his fragrance. Trump fragrance. What can that smell like? What is the ingredients in the Trump fragrance had only raised 67,000. So I think post presidency he shouldn't think of being becoming a perfumier. I think he should stick to the cryptogrift and the licensing of his name. And perhaps, you know, perhaps if Ivanka will be able to do a chain of Albanian restaurants and hotels once she's got her foothold on her island.
- [34:29]
Michael Wolff
I mean, maybe as fascinating as the level of money he is taking in is the fact that, that this has not appeared to inspired a universal revulsion that, you know, I mean, in any other presidency, this would have. Well, it just would have not. It couldn't have happened.
- [34:58]
Joanna
I mean, can you imagine, can you imagine if Joe Biden had come up with some rule on crypto, brought out a Biden coin and made $2.2 billion? Look at the fuss that was made over Hunton.
- [35:10]
Michael Wolff
Maybe that's not true, though. Maybe you would look at the other way that if Joe Biden had done this, done this in such an egregious way, in such a blatant way, in such a shameless way, in such a proud way, maybe people would have said, oh my God, Joe is really good for Joe. Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know, because I can't understand any other reason why this has not redounded to Trump's imprisonment. It is. And does anyone seem to care? You know, I mean, yeah, I think people, people care, but in general, not very much. This is not, this is not going to the top of the issues that people have against Donald Trump.
- [35:59]
Joanna
Well, I wonder though, I wonder if that's true. I mean, it's difficult to know. First of all, Republicans are much better at negative messaging against the Dems than the Dems are against Trump. I mean, if I were the Dems, I would have had a national campaign by now attacking Donald Trump on this extraordinary level of money that he's made in the last 18 months. I mean, not even over a period of time.
- [36:29]
Michael Wolff
Not even 18 months.
- [36:30]
Joanna
Right. Okay, so not even 18 months. Months. Nearly 18 months. But they should have had a message that came out from every Democratic mouth across the country. And instead, I guess maybe this is what's behind the Democratic socialists sudden rise in Colorado. I mean, you saw Michael Bennett just getting pushed to the side by Phil Weiser. You saw the incumbent in Colorado getting kicked out by the Democratic socialist new candidate who was born the same year as the, as the incumbent actually went into Congress. So there's clearly change going on, but the messaging around it just seems missing.
- [37:15]
Michael Wolff
Well, I mean, the messaging partly is that. I mean, that's, that's, that's. I mean, the messaging there is internecine within the Democratic Party, and it is either you're too old or you haven't done enough to stand up to Donald Trump, which is clearly they haven't. But they haven't because. Because Donald Trump is. Is because nobody quite knows how to stand up to Donald Trump. Because the fact that Donald Trump has made $2 billion in, in a very short time in the White House does not seem to have the effect that everyone would assume it should have.
- [37:57]
Joanna
I mean, why hasn't every Democratic governor been out there with talking points about this? This is a moment where the Democratic Party could entirely unite around this message of corruption and connecting it to taxpayer dollars, connecting it to. This is not what he's supposed to be in the presidency for.
- [38:18]
Michael Wolff
I think probably the answer is because they don't think it has all. It has the traction that we would ordinarily think that it should have. That there is something that this is built into the Donald Trump personality. It's Donald Trump, of course he's going to make money on this. He's a businessman. He's. The fact that Donald Trump is not only shameless, but proud of this appears to have this other, this confounding effect. And it's not just in terms of his grift and corruption, obviously. It's in terms of almost anything else. Anything else he does that one would have thought would cost, would have an extreme political cost. The women, the ballroom, the Kennedy center, all of this kind of thing that you would say this should cost him and maybe it will cost him. And that's what we're looking toward the midterms to see. But so far, given the fact that he's been elected to the presidency twice, it's a, a, I mean, there is a. There. This is a complicated thing that American politics has not been able to digest and process.
- [39:57]
Joanna
Okay. Well, in our last conversations about the midterms, I was slightly sloppy in describing the California vote counting as sloppy. And we heard from someone who's worked in the elections in California for 30 years who was irritated by that comment, and I don't blame her, really was trying to point out, was I thought it was odd that California seems to take so long to bring back a verdict on who's won, because so many people in California use mail in voting. And it seems to Take forever to count. But I didn't mean to say the process was sloppy. She assured me that the process is, in fact, meticulous. Even Steve Hilton, the Republican gubernatorial candidate who's now crept in as number two, has said, there's no indication of election fraud whatsoever in. In California. But I wanted to point out that I shouldn't have used the word sloppy because I don't think it probably is sloppy.
- [40:55]
Michael Wolff
No, but the word you should have used was inefficient. And it certainly is inefficient. It certainly is. I mean, I think the Californians acknowledge this, and I think they've just authorized a new expenditure to deal with this. I mean, this is a procedural process that if not sloppy, certainly not something that anybody has, certainly not urgent. And I think that's a problem. I mean, it creates doubt where there should not be doubt.
- [41:36]
Joanna
Right.
- [41:37]
Michael Wolff
And that's a bureaucratic responsibility that clearly nobody has taken as their own.
- [41:47]
Joanna
Maybe there's no way around it. I mean, we saw the Supreme Court at least uphold the fact that in Mississippi, you know, votes can be counted if they've been postmarked on the day of the election, even if they arrive a bit late.
- [42:00]
Michael Wolff
Well, yeah, but there is a way around it. You get more people, better systems. You know, California is a standout in. Among 50 states in taking its sweet time.
- [42:13]
Joanna
Well, and also it does have Silicon Valley. And you would think, if you can do online banking, why can't you vote online? There must be some way of doing this, surely.
- [42:21]
Michael Wolff
Well, but that's a different subject now. You're, you know.
- [42:25]
Joanna
Right, but. But the world is sped up. We now have technology since people started voting. Surely they must be able to do it.
- [42:32]
Michael Wolff
Well, yeah, yeah, but. Okay, voting online is. Is somewhat. We don't vote online and for good or not so good reasons. But right now we vote the way we vote. And California takes much longer than anyone else.
- [42:47]
Joanna
Right. And all I'm saying is if we voted online, it would be instant. The results would be very easy to tally. We do everything else online, I don't even know.
- [42:56]
Michael Wolff
But that is not related to California. And California is a major issue. And California has got to solve its problem, should solve its problem, has got to solve its problem, and has nothing to do with voting online. This is how people vote right now. This is how it works. And you gotta perform within that and they don't. So whether you wanna call it sloppy or inefficient, you could call it certainly broken.
- [43:32]
Joanna
Okay, all right. Well, I don't think we Was. Well, I certainly wasn't trying to suggest it was, however fraudulent, which is what I was anxious that I'd inadvertently suggested. So scotus, a lot of comments on the fact that no one can believe SCOTUS takes three months off for such for a holiday. I mean, it's crazy. Why do they get three months vacation? Who else gets three months vacation? They've got a job for life. They're allowed to do a side hustle and write books and pull in a million dollars here for an adv or do something else. They're allowed to take RVs in the case of Clarence Thomas. So why is it that they get to have a three month vacation anyway?
- [44:17]
Michael Wolff
I'm all for longer vacations for more people. And in the case of the Supreme Court it means three months without trump favoring decisions. So I think we come out ahead on this.
- [44:35]
Joanna
Okay, well that's, that's a good repost. I, I actually don't agree. I think that they could get a month off. I think a month will be absolutely fine. I don't see why they can't do what the French do and just refuse to return calls in August.
- [44:47]
Michael Wolff
And you, and you take a lot of vacations.
- [44:50]
Joanna
I don't, I never go to. I'm never, I'm always working. Michael Wolf. I was not on vacation. I was looking after my mum. And then I was on a work trip to France. I had three days at the end with my old elder son which was
- [45:02]
Michael Wolff
happen a work trip in the south of France in Cannes. Just to point this out. Remember that conversation?
- [45:10]
Joanna
Of course, all day a lot of people were very upset that you attacked. And one person wrote in to say that the queen likes. The queen likes. Even if it is a mid drink, the queen likes rose.
- [45:22]
Michael Wolff
Ah, the queen. Those notable tastemakers. But just to can the queen catching
- [45:30]
Joanna
astray there, you went to an event
- [45:33]
Michael Wolff
that I have been to many times and a pure boondoggle just to point this out in defense of the Supreme Court. Nothing gets done. Everybody says something gets done. I've never seen any business get done in Cannes.
- [45:46]
Joanna
Actually I did some business in can. So there you go.
- [45:49]
Michael Wolff
Okay, let's see. People think they do business, they have a conversation, they go to a meeting.
- [45:56]
Joanna
Well, actually what you do is you meet people for breakfast, you meet people for lunch, you meet people for coffee.
- [46:01]
Michael Wolff
I know, I've been there. And that gets you absolutely nothing.
- [46:06]
Joanna
Okay, well, we'll see.
- [46:07]
Michael Wolff
I eat breakfast.
- [46:08]
Joanna
Except breakfast. Okay, well it's a good way to catch up with people. Find out what's going on. In fact, I did do some business. So there you go. Michael Wolff. All right, let's talk about SCOTUS decisions.
- [46:19]
Michael Wolff
We've had this discussion before that I. In, in my view, the majority of the justices on the Supreme Court are threading the needle. It is all about what they have to give Donald Trump and what they can hold back from him, and all about how to measure. It's all about power, essentially. It's all about politics. So the Supreme Court, which is supposed to be above politics, which is supposed to be all. All about the application of the law, a nation of laws and not men, has flipped that on its head. It's all about Donald Trump. Everything that goes through their head is about Donald Trump, how Donald Trump is going to react, how they need to react to Donald Trump, how they function within the political system.
- [47:20]
Joanna
And of course, he actually appeared at the Supreme Court, which was a first during the birthright citizenship arguments that didn't seem to have had an effect. Or maybe it did. Cause it was a 6, 3 decision against him. Maybe the three that were in favor or dissented from the decision were intimidated by him.
- [47:43]
Michael Wolff
We were wrong about our characterization of that the other day. I mean, when we were talking about the decision had just that second.
- [47:52]
Joanna
Yeah, we literally got a newsflash as we were talking about it, but it's
- [47:55]
Michael Wolff
a significantly more equivocal decision than we had portrayed that. So in a decision which should have been, you would have said, okay, well, this is, you know, this is an obvious one. This is nine to zero or, or it. Or at least seven and two, because you have two.
- [48:19]
Joanna
Well, we've got Alito and Clarence Thomas that are always going to vote for Trump, who are.
- [48:23]
Michael Wolff
Who are, you know, gone in some strange world. But it wasn't, you know, and it was. And it was much closer to, you know, essentially they were saying, well, this is open to debate. And, you know, and the. I, you know, I think the danger now is that it is that they have opened it to debate and that this will go on in a, you know, Roe v. Wade sense and become a political issue. So, so. And again. So I think that was the gift that to Donald Trump. Okay. You know, we don't. We, we really can't. We really can't rule out birthright citizenship. Hello. But it's something Donald Trump wants. How can we go? Is there a kind of a middle ground here? And again, it's always that kind of thing in everything they do is, what do we have to give to Caesar?
- [49:28]
Joanna
Well, to your point about whether or not that debate just keeps going on, it does seem as if the skirmishes with Iran are going to keep going on now. And then Donald Trump was calling for Syria to get involved. The head of isis, now in charge of Syria, now president of Syria, he was like, well, what? The Syrians should be involved.
- [49:51]
Michael Wolff
I think that that was extraordinary. I mean, you know, the Syrians, I mean, essentially they were saying, well, the Syrians should go, and they should go to go fight Hezbollah. The Syrians who have had. Who have had now years and years of war and who have basically said, oh, my God, you know, we gotta. You know, we have to rebuild. We have a nation to rebuild here. We're not gonna get involved in this. I mean, this is so.
- [50:21]
Joanna
So.
- [50:21]
Michael Wolff
And. And Donald Trump is. In that way, he has. Of just, Just speaking, just comes. Where does it come from? I mean, it comes from the fact that he has. And, and this is the point. No idea what he's talking about. So much of what he says is not only uninformed, not thought out, in which he has gotten no advice about, but it just comes off the top of his head. Where does that come from? It comes from nowhere, right?
- [50:58]
Joanna
I mean, has he just looked at a map and thought, well, Syria's near Iran. Why don't they just get involved? Let's get them involved. I mean, that sense of, well, as you say, just creating foreign policy on the fly with no understanding.
- [51:15]
Michael Wolff
No, but it's even more than that. And again, that thing that people can't get their heads around, it's like the $2 billion here is a man who has no, no fucking idea what he's talking about for a good part of the time, and we kind of go, yeah, okay, okay, well, we don't do that.
- [51:37]
Joanna
We're trying to point it out. There are lots of people pointing it out that he has no idea what he's talking about half the time. More than half the time.
- [51:45]
Michael Wolff
Okay, and where's my headline in the New York Times? Donald Trump has no idea what he's talking about. You see, we are forced into a situation because we lack the language, we lack the affect to say here. The President of the United States is, as I say, we lack the language. The President of the United States is crazy. The President of the United States is the stupidest man, obviously, to ever occupy this office. The President of the United States has no grasp of the issues that he's charged with making decisions about, and yet
- [52:26]
Joanna
he's managed to make $2.2 billion in his first year. Well, we'll be back on Saturday with. We've actually got an election episode on Saturday, haven't we? We've. We've not exactly predicted the midterms, but yeah, we've been talking about the midterms, which is essential for July 4th.
- [52:48]
Michael Wolff
Speaking of the New York Times. The New York Times had two competing articles. One in which it says control of the Senate was up for grabs. The other one by Nate. What's his name? What's that guy's name?
- [53:03]
Joanna
Nate Silver.
- [53:04]
Michael Wolff
Nate Silver. A pollster. The Times pollster, who is invariably wrong and then invariably authoritative about why he was right. Even if he was wrong. This is why he was right. But anyway, his piece today was, I think today or yesterday was that the Democrats. It was highly unlikely that the Democrats would take the Senate. It.
- [53:37]
Joanna
Well, Michigan is an interesting one. Have you been following that? AOC came out and endorsed one of the candidates. The primary is actually August 4th, and I have one or two friends in Michigan who called. Just saying this will be an absolute disaster if they go for a progressive in Michigan. This is a state that Donald Trump won and that if they go non moderate in Michigan, they will lose, lose, lose.
- [54:09]
Michael Wolff
Well, that's from one side. I mean, that is the discussion within the Democratic Party. And it is between the moderate faction and this new, younger, really energetic, significantly energetic. Significantly more left people who seem to be winning election after election.
- [54:38]
Joanna
All right, well, let's talk about the midterms on Saturday. In the meantime, I know you have to. You've got an appointment with the beach. I've just got an appointment with the office.
- [54:49]
Michael Wolff
I thought you were coming out here. Don't I have to entertain you?
- [54:53]
Joanna
I think you might have to entertain me. I'm not coming out till tomorrow. I'm coming out for 36 hours, Michael. That's the only time off I allow myself. I'm coming out for 36 hours and I'm looking forward to seeing you out
- [55:03]
Michael Wolff
there on a helicopter. I'm sure.
- [55:07]
Joanna
I'm actually not coming out on the helicopter. I'm coming out on the jitney. The helicopter was booked.
- [55:12]
Michael Wolff
I see. Well, the jitney is running at five hours to get out of here. To get out here now. I understand.
- [55:18]
Joanna
Yeah, I heard that. But I'm coming on Friday lunchtime. So I'm thinking that the Jitini will actually be fine by then. I think the roads will be fine by then. Most people will be coming out tonight.
- [55:31]
Michael Wolff
Okay, well, a measure. We'll take the measure.
- [55:34]
Joanna
We'll Take the measure when you get here. All right. I'm looking forward to seeing you out there. I'm looking forward to a slightly. I'm looking forward to lesser temperatures than a sea breeze. And I'm really looking forward to a lot of.
- [55:52]
Michael Wolff
I don't know what to say.
- [55:54]
Joanna
You don't have to say anything. You just have to thank people.
- [55:57]
Michael Wolff
Our enduring thanks to John, Rachel, Matt, Heather and Neil. And I think there's one more person I've forgotten. Doug.
- [56:13]
Joanna
Who's Doug? You just made that up. You just made that up. And it's not Matt, it's Max. You've just made Doug up. But if there's anyone called Doug out there who wants to come and work on the podcast, and you've got the right qualifications, listen, let us know if you can handle Michael's tech requirements, then good for you. And don't forget to subscribe to the Daily beast. Michael, we're 2,000 off. 700,000. And do you know, we haven't even been going a year. Inside Trump's Head has not been going a year yet. We're gonna have to think of how we celebrate our annual anniversary, which isn't till the end of August, actually. So we've got some time to think about it.
- [56:52]
Michael Wolff
We can talk about it this weekend.
- [56:54]
Joanna
We can talk about it this weekend. Okay. And how we're going to think about the midter and where we go. And we got various invites from people across the country, actually, which is very exciting. I'm still up for Mount Rushmore, though. A couple of people wrote in and said, absolutely not. It's really trashy, which I find hard to believe, but it looked very.
- [57:16]
Michael Wolff
What are you talking about? You've got presidents, the faces of presidents carved into a mountainside. You don't think that's going to be trashy?
- [57:25]
Joanna
No, I think it's gonna be inspiring and sort of awe inspiring. And I'm gonna make you run across the top, like in that scene from this north by Northwest.
- [57:33]
Michael Wolff
North by Northwest, Yeah.
- [57:34]
Joanna
Great. Great movie. And they're running across those faces. I can see you doing that.
- [57:41]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I also see me doing that, too.
- [57:43]
Joanna
A lot of people appreciated the photo of you with hair.
- [57:47]
Michael Wolff
I'm not even gonna respond to that.
- [57:50]
Joanna
I will. Well, I'll see you in the Hamptons, and we'll see everybody back here on Saturday for our next episode of Inside Trump's Head. Thank you. If you have been for joining us, big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many Beebeast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support.