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- [00:00]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
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- [01:00]
Ryan Reynolds
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Robbie Kaplan
2.
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Ryan Reynolds
Seriously, it's $15 a month. 3. No big contracts.
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Robbie Kaplan
4.
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Ryan Reynolds
I use it.
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Podcast Host / Advertiser
5.
- [01:16]
Ryan Reynolds
My mom uses it. Are you. Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront.
- [01:23]
Joanna Coles
Payment $45 for three month plan $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only.
- [01:27]
E. Jean Carroll
Then full price plan options available, Taxes and fees extra.
- [01:29]
Joanna Coles
See mintmobile.com.
- [01:33]
Eugene Carroll
I don't understand how people can be afraid of a fat elderly man who wears apricot makeup, his hair done up like Tippi Hedren in the Birds, and sits in a courtroom and moans and groans and complains and snorts. He belittles Alina Habba, Esquire, his own attorney. He would spit as he was talking. He didn't smell so good. And the high point of Donald Trump in court was the moment he stood up because Robbie Kaplan was giving the final argument and she was asking the jury how much it would take to make him stop. And she drove him so crazy. Joanna he stood up in the courtroom and left.
- [02:39]
Joanna Coles
He stormed out.
- [02:41]
Eugene Carroll
When a man is innocent, he doesn't storm out of a courtroom. He stays and fights. He turned tail. Turned tail and starved out of the courtroom. He lost right at that second. He couldn't have looked more guilty.
- [03:00]
Joanna Coles
I'm Joanna Coles, this is the Daily Beast podcast. We've been talking over the last few days about Michael Wolf suing the first lady. Well, here are two women who took on Donald Trump, one kept on winning, and now are almost at the end of their epic legal battle. I'm talking, of course, about E. Jean Carroll and her formidable lawyer, Robbie Kaplan. No time to waste. They're going to bring us up to speed with exactly where their cases are and how tantalizingly close they are to that very large financial judgment against the president that they were awarded by a New York court. Robby Kaplan and E. Jean Carroll, let's get into it. And I guess the first question I should ask really is where do your cases stand now? E. Jean, can you give us an up sum? Because there's been so much news about them and obviously Trump has been fighting them every step of the way. You keep winning. Where does it stand at the moment?
- [04:09]
Eugene Carroll
Well, Joanna, I'm going to turn this over to Robby, but I will just say we've had a clean sweep. He has done nothing but lose, lose, lose. We won in two federal courts. We won a clean sweep in the appeals court. That's where we are. And Robbie will tell you what our situation is.
- [04:29]
Joanna Coles
Okay, tell us what your situation is. And then, Robby, will you add what your strategy for winning has been?
- [04:36]
Robbie Kaplan
The easier question is where we are. And then I'll try to figure out what my strategy is in terms of where we are. As people may or may not know, there were two trials pretty close in time to each other. The first trial was for sexual assault and for defamation. In that case, we got a $5 million verdict. And the second trial, which was about three months later or so, was for Donald Trump's original defamation of Eugene that he made when he was president in the summer of 2019. And that was the big, what I like to call the big kahuna verdict. That was 83 plus million dollars on the first $5 million verdict. We are all the way through the appellate process except for one step, which is Donald Trump gets an opportunity to ask the Supreme Court to take his case. That he is due to file his petition for that, I think on November 13th. We will respond in kind. And I am quite confident that the Supreme Court will not take that case for reasons I can explain. But there's nothing, any, there's nothing in that case that's SCOTUS worthy. I feel like I'm talking Seinfeld, but there really isn't anything that merits the Supreme Court's attention.
- [05:50]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [05:52]
Robbie Kaplan
The second case is quite a ways behind. It's almost a year behind. We won that case in the Second Circuit, he has filed, as he did with the earlier verdict, to ask the entire 2nd Circuit bench, or at least all the active judges on the bench, to hear the case again. As a whole. They are. We typically don't respond to that. They denied that last time. They expect them to deny that this time, but it took quite some time last time. It took about six or seven months. So we expect them to turn that down sometime, I think in the summer is my guess. If that schedule stays the same, and then we are virtually certain that he will then again try to go to the Supreme Court on that verdict. And that will take probably another six. We're probably about a year behind.
- [06:40]
Joanna Coles
Good Lord. It goes on and on and on, doesn't it? Will you explain to us why do you think the Supreme Court is not going to add this to itself? Docket.
- [06:48]
Robbie Kaplan
So on the first verdict, the first trial, the issue, the only issues that they have are evidentiary issues. So, first of all, and the main evidentiary issue is whether the district court judge, the trial judge, was correct in admitting the testimony of a woman Donald Trump accosted and assaulted on an airplane in 1979. There's most times in court you're not allowed to put on what are called prior bad acts as evidence in a case. But in the circumstances of sexual assault, the federal rules were specifically amended to allow for this kind of testimony. So I could go into all kinds of. Kind of ridiculously minute detail on it. But suffice it to say, the Supreme Court typically does not take those kinds of evidentiary questions, particularly in civil cases. And here the Second Circuit concluded that even if the court had been incorrect in admitting her testimony, it was what's called harmless error because we had another 10 or 11 witnesses and they had zero. So there's no way that she would. That would have changed the results.
- [07:57]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [07:57]
Robbie Kaplan
That's why I'm pretty confident they want me.
- [07:59]
Joanna Coles
So does that mean if they turn it down, that's the end of the particular process for that case and you finally get some money, Admittedly, not the big money, but the 5 million.
- [08:13]
Robbie Kaplan
Correct. The 5 million, believe it or not, has been sitting in an account held by the court. It's been earning interest. In the meantime in, eg, the minute we reach the bitter end, Eugene will receive that money plus interest.
- [08:26]
Joanna Coles
Eugene, do you have any plans for that money yet?
- [08:29]
Eugene Carroll
Well, I have plans for the money. I want to give it to everything Donald Trump hates.
- [08:39]
Joanna Coles
Well, that's a lot of things I know.
- [08:42]
Eugene Carroll
I particularly want to give it to women and getting our reproductive rights back. I mean, we've been set back for 50 now. It looks like the voting rights are being taken away from us. So that's also very important. And of course, Joanna, it changes second by second where that money should go. And frankly, by the way, I may take a million of that and spend it on myself.
- [09:09]
Joanna Coles
Well, I think you should go back to Bergdorf Goodman.
- [09:12]
Eugene Carroll
Yeah, back. Hello, here I am. Yes, there I am. Yeah, no, I will enjoy about a million bucks of that, but I can't enjoy the money when I know the rest of the country is suffering. It is is not fun to look at the headlines.
- [09:27]
Joanna Coles
Well, I hope the two of you managed to get a holiday out of it too, because this has been a grueling case. And I wanted to ask you something. I know when you set off on, on this case, it was before Trump too, and obviously Trump too. We're seeing him even more power crazed than Trump won. Everybody says how frightened people are of Donald Trump and how frightening he is. The two of you have won against him. How did you manage to ignore the anxiety and the fear of taking on someone as powerful as Donald Trump and stick to a winning strategy?
- [10:09]
Eugene Carroll
See, I don't understand how people can be afraid of a fat elderly man who wears apricot makeup, his hair done up like Tippi Hedren in the Birds, and sits in a courtroom and moans and groans and complains and snorts. When the. Joanna, when the jury got a load of him, they were mesmerized. You have never seen anything like it. He never sat still and he talked the entire time within earshot of the jury. He belittled Alina Habba, Esquire, his own attorney. He would spit as he was talking. He didn't smell so good. And the high point of Donald Trump in court was the moment he stood up with steam coming off his back and hot air blowing out his ears because Robbie Kaplan was giving the final argument and she was asking the jury how much it would take to make him stop. And she drove him to. You think Robbie Kaplan's afraid of Trump? No, she turned it around. She drove him so crazy, Joanna, he stood up in the courtroom and left.
- [11:46]
Joanna Coles
He stormed out.
- [11:47]
Eugene Carroll
When a man is innocent, he doesn't storm out of a courtroom. He stays and fights. He turned tail. Turned tail and starved out of the courtroom. He lost right at that second. I mean, he couldn't have looked more guilty, but that's how frightened Robbie Kaplan is of him. And there's really, there's A theory out there, Mary, Trump's theory is he's a myth now. He's a myth. And it's the people around him who believe in this myth who are giving him the power. I'm not so sure. I just think he's an old fat guy and he's doing a lot. He's the most powerful man on the planet. There's no question. No question. Nobody is more powerful and he's super smart. Nobody has been elected president twice like Trump. You can't be dumb and do that. So we are contending, yes, with an enormous intelligence and an enormous amount of power, but we are not frightened of it. We're not frightened of it.
- [12:55]
Joanna Coles
I've known you both for a long time and Robbie, it's hard to imagine that you are frightened of anybody. And especially in the courtroom. You are fearless in the courtroom. You are like a machine in the courtroom.
- [13:07]
Robbie Kaplan
Yes.
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Eugene Carroll
Yes.
- [13:09]
Joanna Coles
So what was your strategy dealing with someone who, as E. Jean says in the courtroom, is mesmerising and he's deliberately concocted himself like this. And Eugene, I think your observation of him as a myth is brilliant, actually, because people respond to the myth as opposed to the actual 79 year old, frail old man. Robbie, when you're a lawyer, what is the psychology you're adopting to go after someone like this?
- [13:40]
Robbie Kaplan
So the whole difference, you put your finger on, Joanna, the whole difference here is the courtroom versus everything else. So in the courtroom, we had a very, very experienced, very stern judge, Judge Lewis Kaplan, not my relation, not my mentor, but a very highly respected judge who you don't want to mess with. In short, we had rules that apply. People can only say certain things if they're. If they're consistent with the rules of evidence. There's things that you can't say or do you have to wait for a question in order to answer the question, et cetera. And we had a jury, frankly, in the first case that wasn't a New York City jury at all. We had no one from New York City on that jury. There were all people from north of Westchester County, I think one from Westchester County. And we had to convince them unanimously. Nine jurors each time. And so I believe that what made the difference is only the facts could come out in court. We have ways of making sure the facts come out. There's no AI. There's no fake movies, there's no fake documents. Everything has to be authenticated. And when the jury heard the evidence, it wasn't very hard. And I just do what I always Do. I just kept my head down and tried the case the way I've always learned how to try a case and try to keep the noise out as much as possible. I should say that in my closing argument the second trial, he was sitting probably about 7ft to my left, and I just made sure I didn't look his way. I only knew he left the courtroom when the judge announced it, because I was looking very much at the jury.
- [15:18]
Joanna Coles
And why didn't you look his way?
- [15:20]
Robbie Kaplan
I didn't want to provoke him. I didn't want there to be any kind of unnecessary noise in the courtroom. I wanted the jury, the jury was very, I think, really understood the importance of the dignity of a courtroom and the respect that must be accorded to the courts and to the proceedings in a courtroom. And I didn't want him to be able to use any of his tricks, for lack of a better word, any of his strategies to mess with that.
- [15:45]
Joanna Coles
How fascinating.
- [15:47]
Robbie Kaplan
He did a few times, and the jury definitely didn't like it. What.
- [15:49]
Joanna Coles
What kind of things did he do?
- [15:52]
Robbie Kaplan
So I'll give you one example. Eugene probably has better ones because I know they're in her book. But I remember during jury selection, Judge Kaplan kind of conducts jury selection a little bit like speed dating. So you have all these people in a courtroom, and they're asked a series of questions, and they're supposed to kind of raise their hands, et cetera. And one of the questions was, does anyone believe that the 2 20, 20,020 election. 2020 election was stolen? And no one in the courtroom raised their hand except for Donald Trump sitting in that. What's called the well of the courtroom. So, I mean, that was kind of an easy example, but I'm sure the jury took note. There's no question they did.
- [16:32]
Joanna Coles
So, Eugene, what for you were the most memorable moments of an arduous process in court. In both cases, some of them didn't.
- [16:45]
Eugene Carroll
Happen in the court, and they happened after trial when Donald Trump would hold press conference and then give his version of everything that went on in the courtroom that day. Two different worlds. And he would tell the world, I'm the one who suffered. I'm the one who should get the damages. It was a high comedy of his world against the world of truth and facts. And, of course, well, the most memorable was when the jury came back during the second trial. We had no idea Trump was not in the courtroom. He could feel it was not going to be good.
- [17:34]
Joanna Coles
He was playing golf, correct?
- [17:35]
Eugene Carroll
Yeah, He. This is the second trial he left in A motorcade speeded away from the courtroom as the jury was being called back and the judge, Judge Kaplan, everybody came back in the cap room into the courtroom. And Judge Kaplan had read the riot act to people in the courtroom. The decorum will be maintained at all times. There will be no jumping up. There will be no shouting, There will be no running for the door. He had all sorts of rules. So everybody was, you know, pretty tense waiting because the jury was there. And he said, madam Forewoman, have you reached a verdict? And she said, yes, she had reached a verdict. And Joanna, when she stood up and we saw that she was the foreign woman, she was very attractive, blonde, wearing a rose colored sweater. She had paid such intense attention to every word. Robbie and I were holding hands and we squeezed each other's hands. The minute she said, yes, you, Honor, we have reached a journey. He said, you will hand it to Andy the clerk. She handed the decision to Andy the clerk. Andy, the clerk opens it up, reads it, frowns, shakes his head, folds it back up, and then hands it to Judge Kaplan. And Judge Kaplan opens it up and his eyebrows rise up towards his headline hairline. And he frowns and he says, madam Forewoman, what does the M stand for?
- [19:18]
Joanna Coles
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- [19:56]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
Are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation@rubrik.com that's R U B R-I K.com we all love our.
- [20:27]
E. Jean Carroll
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- [20:57]
Ryan Reynolds
Now I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk, crazy weather we're having. No, it's not. It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [21:19]
Joanna Coles
Of $45 per three month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only.
- [21:22]
E. Jean Carroll
Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.
- [21:24]
Joanna Coles
See mintmobile.com and we're talking to Eugene Carroll and her formidable lawyer, Robbie Kaplan.
- [21:34]
Eugene Carroll
Wow.
- [21:34]
Joanna Coles
And the M obviously stood for.
- [21:37]
Eugene Carroll
And she said million, your honor. And that was a moment, I mean, my, I left my body, as I say, I felt like Peter Pan who flies around the ceilings. And quite frankly, I've never come down from that. Joanna, that win was so enormous and so powerful, not for me, not for Robby, but for everybody in the country who had sort of lost hope that he could ever be beaten. And Robby decimated him, just decimated him. And so, and we're still feeling the good, the good victory of that. It's happened and we've proved, Robby proved and I proved that Trump can be beaten. He can be beaten.
- [22:31]
Joanna Coles
And that number was 83 million, correct?
- [22:34]
Eugene Carroll
83.3.
- [22:35]
Joanna Coles
83.3 million.
- [22:38]
Robbie Kaplan
I have it sitting behind my computer. I was so nervous at the time, I did the bathroom. Cross it out and fix it.
- [22:44]
Joanna Coles
And I'm sure you, I hope you think about it last thing at night just as you're falling asleep and you think about it first thing in the morning as you wa Eugene, I wanted to ask you, I mean, one of the reasons that people are very frightened about taking him on is that he's vindictive. He comes after people. He's certainly done that to the two of you. And certainly people have lost their livelihoods over. People who work for the government in the DoJ have lost their jobs over it. You also lost your job over this. And when I was talking to people about what questions to ask you, one former model came up with a question which I thought was very good. What was worse, being sexually assaulted by Donald Trump in a changing room at Bergdorf Goodman or losing your Job at a woman's magazine for having the bravery to take him on.
- [23:39]
Eugene Carroll
Key question. But, Joanna, may I just say, I'm not the only one who lost my job.
- [23:46]
Robbie Kaplan
I.
- [23:46]
Eugene Carroll
We're not the only ones who should have been afraid. Every single person in this country should be afraid of losing their job. Every single one. Think of how many people are out of work right now. You've flown lately, right? Did you see the TSA people are coming. They all have families at home. At home. They have no money. I don't know how they're feeding their kids. There they are at the airport being pleasant, saying, you know, put your bag here. And the. And the air traffic control people, they're working day and night, and they're not getting any money. And think of everybody who's lost their job. Think what the tariffs are doing. Everybody should be just as frightened. As for Elle magazine, firing a woman with a popular advice column, firing that woman for accusing a powerful man of sexual abuse is. It was so astonishing that when they called to tell me, Joanna, I thought they were inviting me to the Christmas party. I'm thinking, oh, boy, what am I going to wear? You know, that's how I was thinking. So it was devastating to lose a job. I didn't know who I was or what I stood for or anything. I was depleted. It takes away. You know, it takes away. Well, it takes away. Took away everything.
- [25:22]
Joanna Coles
And they. They claimed it was for sort of business reasons. Right. But in fact, your column was one of the most read regular features in the magazine. And also, it was supposed to be a magazine that not only was about fashion and beauty, but also empowering women.
- [25:42]
Eugene Carroll
Yeah, yeah, it was. It was great at art and politics and, you know, leading an adventurous life. Elle was a thinking woman's fashion magazine.
- [25:50]
Joanna Coles
You talk about the devastation of losing your job. What was the timing? How soon were you fired after you had brought the case against Donald Trump?
- [26:01]
Eugene Carroll
That was the tipping point, I believe. And of course, I can't see into the minds of Elle magazine, but I believe they were okay with the accusation. But when Robbie and I brought suit, it was what, November 7th or November 8th? Robbie? First week I got the call, which I thought for the Christmas party was December 12th. So about four weeks after. After the lawsuit. The lawsuit caused an upheaval in the press. And here's how prescient Elle was. They were the first Joanna to bend the knee to Trump. Let's put it in context. You know, before everybody. Before the Ivy League started. Bend the knee, before the big corporations started to bend the knee. Elle magazine takes first prize for being the first to bend the knee. I hope it was wearing a very nice pantyhose when it was bent. But they bent their knee big time. Big time. And then, of course, they said it was because here's what they said. They didn't have the pages for Ask Eugene. It's a nothing excuse, you know, what does that mean? It means nothing. Right.
- [27:24]
Joanna Coles
They literally said they didn't have the pages for your colleagues.
- [27:27]
Eugene Carroll
That's what she said.
- [27:29]
Joanna Coles
Wow.
- [27:30]
Robbie Kaplan
They changed the trial. Didn't they say that they were mad that the book was first excerpted in New York magazine? That was the reason they changed their story.
- [27:39]
Eugene Carroll
I think that was aggravating to them. But, Joanna, as you know, Elle magazine never would have run that excerpt that New York magazine ran. They would never have run it.
- [27:50]
Joanna Coles
I worked for the parent company, Hearst, though. In fact, I had left, I think, 18 months before. Before this actually happened. But it does seem doubly ironic that you're working for a magazine that's about empowering women. And they let you go the minute you file suit for a sexual assault case against the president.
- [28:12]
Eugene Carroll
But everybody's now bending the knee to him. It's not unusual. They were just the canary in the cave.
- [28:17]
Joanna Coles
Well, you guys have not bent the knee. You've got a strategy that's won. And the case is proceeding very slowly, it seems like, to those of us watching on the outside. So, Eugene, you've now done a documentary. Ask E. Jean. When are we likely to see that? I know. It premiered at the Telluride Film Festival. Where will we get to see it?
- [28:40]
Eugene Carroll
And it just won best documentary at the Little Rock Film Festival.
- [28:46]
Joanna Coles
Congratulations.
- [28:48]
Eugene Carroll
It'll debut in spring, so I'm looking.
- [28:50]
Joanna Coles
Forward to seeing that. And obviously you wrote a book about your experiences, too.
- [28:55]
Eugene Carroll
Oh, boy, did I write a book. And what was fabulous? Well, first of all, Robbie Kaplan is, you know, is dedicated to Robbie. But if you notice, Joanna, he did not say a big peep for the last five months since that book has been out, it immediately hit the New York Times bestseller list. It was an instant bestseller across the country. And not a peep from Donald Trump.
- [29:25]
Joanna Coles
So he's finally learned his lesson that every time he defames you, that's another $5 million. Ka ching.
- [29:34]
Eugene Carroll
Thank you, Robbie Kaplan.
- [29:37]
Joanna Coles
So, Robbie, I wanted to ask you, as a very experienced and successful long practicing lawyer, what do you think when you look at the Department of Justice now headed by Pam Bondi as the number one, Todd Blanche as the number Two. And now Lindsey Halligan put in in Virginia as the U.S. attorney. You've got Alina Haba that you guys were opposite during your case, who's now practicing, I think, is the U.S. attorney in New Jersey. Have you come across anything like this in your lifetime, where the DOJ is basically staffed up with the President's former personal lawyers?
- [30:24]
Robbie Kaplan
So the short answer is no. And the reason the answer is no, Joanna, is because it's never happened in American history. History. It's not uncommon for the President to appoint to high positions in the Department of Justice people who he knows and likes, respects. But they all in the past have had incredibly good qualifications for the job. And to have someone as the U.S. attorney in D.C. who only practiced insurance law, or Ms. Haba as the acting. I'm not even sure if she's acting. I think they gave it another word. U.S. attorney in New Jersey, who has zero experience, again, in doing criminal cases or trying criminal cases or anything like that. I think it's fair to say most lawyers like me are pretty shocked by it all. I'd say most. I'd say almost every lawyer is pretty shocked by it all.
- [31:15]
Joanna Coles
And what do you think it portends for the Department of Justice?
- [31:21]
Robbie Kaplan
Nothing good. I'm hopeful that there will be at some point a realization that we have to go back to the old ways. The idea, for example, that the President could bring complaints against the two indictments that were handed down against him and then have the people he picked decide to give him $230 million in compensation, which, by the way, is what, four times more than your verdict is astounding. No one. There's not anyone in the first day of the first year of law school who would think that that was a proper thing or an okay thing to do. A lot of the rules, this is true in England, too. A lot of the rules in our system are unwritten. It's actually surprising how much of it is unwritten. It's just the custom and the principles and kind of the rules that we live by. And so we're going to have to, similar to what happened after Nixon, we're going to have to put him down in writing from now on because no one would have thought that any President would even dare to do this. And we now have one who has.
- [32:23]
Joanna Coles
And do you think it's likely that he will get the go ahead to receive the. That basically quarter of a billion dollars in compensation?
- [32:32]
Robbie Kaplan
I almost don't know how to answer because based on everything I've learned, everything I've read everything I've done in my career, everything I teach my students at law school, the answer would be no. But I can in good faith sit here and tell you the answer is absolutely no. A lot of things where I would have told you never would have happened have already happened. Every time I hear a siren outside, which I apologize for outside my window here, I keep expecting to see ice trucks coming down the road.
- [33:00]
Joanna Coles
Todd Blanche famously went down to interview Ghislaine Maxwell, who as we know was Jeffrey Epstein's partner in crime, got sentenced to 20 years for sex trafficking and was then immediately moved to a much lower security prison in Texas where she has a sister living in Texas. What did you think of that decision? And we're stopping for a quick break from our sponsors.
- [33:32]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, reset guardrails and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation@rubrik.com that's R U B R-I K.com we all love our.
- [34:04]
E. Jean Carroll
Pets, but we love to travel too. And sadly they can't always come along for the ride. Don't stress. Trusted House Sitters connects you with verified sitters who will stay in your home and care for your pets, all in exchange for a place to stay on their travels. So while you're off exploring, your pets get to stay safe and happy at home, right where they belong. Find a loving in Home Pet sitter.
- [34:30]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
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Ryan Reynolds
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Robbie Kaplan
2.
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Ryan Reynolds
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Robbie Kaplan
4.
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Ryan Reynolds
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Podcast Host / Advertiser
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Ryan Reynolds
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Joanna Coles
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E. Jean Carroll
Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.
- [35:32]
Joanna Coles
See mint mobile.com and I'm back with Eugene, Carol and Robbie Kaplan.
- [35:40]
Robbie Kaplan
Putting aside the switch in prisons, which itself is pretty shocking, the idea that the deputy Attorney general, often called dag, which is the second highest position in the Department of Justice, went down after a conviction to interview a person who'd been convicted of sex trafficking is astounding. There would be no reason for the deputy Attorney general to do that. And even if there had been a reason for someone to speak to her, it surely wouldn't have been the deputy Attorney general who was really acting more in his in the capacity as Trump's personal attorney rather than a member of the Department of Justice. Again, it's just another example. If you told me five, seven years ago that any of this would have happened, I would have told you you were nuts.
- [36:30]
Joanna Coles
So what do you think that people can do about it? Is there a sort of professional association of lawyers who can actually have an impact here? How do people respond?
- [36:41]
Robbie Kaplan
Well, so the one thing that's already happened, at least among lawyers, is, you know, Trump went after a bunch of law firms and a bunch of the law firms who he threatened actually sued him or he issued orders against sued him. And all they won all those cases. They're now on appeal. I'd be shocked. This I can say I'd be shocked if any of those decisions were reversed. And I'd be shocked if the Supreme Court took them, because I think the Supreme Court understands this is like basic stuff and you can't interfere with a lawyer's ability to practice law. So I think the lawyers have generally stood up the lawsuit law, the bars have stood up the district court judges, God bless them, they have all stood up. You had a Trump judge saying about Portland that the facts were inconsistent with what Trump was saying the facts were. The legal system is holding up. The problem that we have is we have a Supreme Court that takes these cases on what's called the shadow docket and issues rulings, overturning stays that the lower courts have put in place without any reasoning. And that's creating a lot of, shall we say, consternation among the judges.
- [37:53]
Joanna Coles
Eugene, I wanted to ask you, Virginia Giuffre's book has come out this week. She sadly committed suicide earlier this year. Have you spent any time with the victims from the Jeffrey Epstein case?
- [38:09]
Eugene Carroll
I spent a Great deal of time with the women who have accused Donald Trump. There are, let me remind your listeners and viewers, two dozen women, two dozen women, credible women who have accused Donald Trump of sexual abuse, sexual assault, you know, name calling, et cetera, et cetera. Two dozen. Nobody in the GOP believes it. Now they love to believe the victims of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine. They love that. Why? Because they are young. They were young and they were not career women and they were virginal and they were silent. And so they are believed. Virginia Giuffre's life is so heartbreaking and so overwhelmingly horrible. I mean, her own father trafficked her to his best friend. It is so appalling. And of course, when she shows up at Mar a Lago, who do Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump get into a snit about? That cute girl. Jeffrey Epstein stole her from Trump. It is despicable. And that this man was elected President of the United States makes me sick. I can't. It's very hard to think about who we elected president when everybody's in such a, such a, you know, fuss about Epstein. Look who is in the White House. You know, Epstein's gone and dead. And by the way, he may be the one who brings Trump down. It may be Epstein.
- [40:06]
Joanna Coles
Do you think that the moment where women were gaining traction has, has just vanished at this point?
- [40:14]
Eugene Carroll
It's not vanished, it's gone backwards. It's really the undertows that's pulled us up right out to sea again. Really, we have. It's no equality anymore at work for black women and women of color, it's even worse. And for poor women who are trying to educate their children, educate themselves, it is so now difficult to put food on the table or to get an education. It's like way back before the 1950s. We're back in the 17 and 1600s. It's, it's appalling. It. But listen, the three of us know serious women have the ability to get it all back. And we're not going to sit still for this. The three of us know how much power a woman, and many of your listeners and many of your viewers know the power of a serious woman. And so I think you better vote bitches. That's all I gotta say.
- [41:24]
Joanna Coles
Well, it's also very interesting that it takes two determined middle aged women to take on Donald Trump completely unafraid and to win, to win your cases and to keep on winning your cases.
- [41:38]
Eugene Carroll
I'm 82, for God's sakes. I'm an old lady. And I beat Donald Trump. If I can beat him, anybody can beat him with Robby Kaplan at her side, of course. So no, yeah, he can be beaten. We gotta leave our houses, get off our lazy asses and go outside.
- [41:59]
Robbie Kaplan
You may be 82, Eugene, but in dog years, you're way younger than I am.
- [42:05]
Joanna Coles
Well, I'm also thinking, you know, you had another. I mean, I was being middle aged. Okay, senior woman in Edie Windsor, when you won the right for gays to finally get married. Robbie, do you think if you were bringing that case now with this current Supreme Court, that would pass?
- [42:25]
Robbie Kaplan
No. If we were to bring that challenge today to what was so called Defense of Marriage Act, I do not think we could win five votes before this court. The more important question, though, the more pressing question is whether there are five votes on this court to overturn Windsor and Obergefell. On that, I'm more optimistic. I don't think they have five votes to do. They for sure have two. They have Alito and Thomas. They pretty much said it, but I don't think they have five. I think it's very hard to overturn the reasonable expectations of millions of Americans and kids and families. So. Right. Maybe I'm being naive, but I don't think I am. I don't think they will overturn marriage equality.
- [43:08]
Joanna Coles
Well, there's clearly a lot of anxiety in the gay community about that being a possibility. So that's a note of optimism from you that you don't think they will do that.
- [43:19]
Robbie Kaplan
Yeah, I think they're going to chip away at it. They've done that already in terms of religious freedoms to not treat LGBT families the same as straight families. That they will do through religious free exercise clause of the First Amendment. But I don't think they will say no more marriage equality or no more in the United States. I just don't think they have the stomach to do that. Or let me put it this way, five of them had the stomach to do that.
- [43:43]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so Eugene, final question to you because I think of you as well as do lots of people who write to you on your substack because you took Ask E Gene from Ellen and rehabilitated it on Substack, where I know it's very popular and anybody listening to this or watching this should definitely check it out if we are going to get off our asses, as you say, and get out there and join protests or whatever. Important question, what should we wear?
- [44:15]
Eugene Carroll
Oh, thank you for asking, Joanna. Dude, see what I got here. Look what I'm wearing. The Paperclip. Here's what the paper. The paperclip holds things together. It can pick locks, it can open up handcuffs. You straighten it out, it's a lethal weapon. The paperclip was a sign of resistance to Nazi occupation in the Second World War. And guess who won the Second World War. So the paperclip is a signal, Joanna, to people who resist Trump. It's a signal to one another. As soon as we all can see how many people there are resisting Trump, that's where the courage comes from. And that's where we say, oh, I'm not alone. So I want everybody to put on your paperclip. Show where you stand. You don't have to do anything. You don't even have to make a sign. Just do the one simple act of putting on a paperclip. I saw one at a stoplight outside of Hackenstown on a young man. And we're both at the stoplight, and he looks over at me and he goes like this. I looked. It's a young man wearing a paperclip. So I knew right then he's a fellow resistor. So if you can do one thing, it's cheap. It's everywhere. You got 400 of them in your desk drawer or in the bottom of your put on a paperclip. And I think it bodes well for the country. I think we've had a tipping point. I think more people don't like Trump now than like Trump. So if we can signal to each other, we will grow in numbers, and then we'll just throw the GOP out of the House and the Senate in the midterms. Thank you very much.
- [46:12]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so you've got it. You've heard it here. First falls it accessory is the paperclip. E. Jean Carroll and Robbie Kaplan, thank you very much for your work defending women against men of violence. And please come back on the podcast the minute you hear that the Supreme Court isn't going to take the case on the docket and you get your first check. We want to know exactly what you're going to be spending it on. We want to see the receipts.
- [46:43]
Eugene Carroll
Joanna, you will go out for cocktails and we'll decide.
- [46:49]
Joanna Coles
Excellent. Excellent. All right, guys, thank you very much for joining us, for joining us and for anybody. Reminder. Who wants to read Eugene and has questions for her, go to her. Substack. Ask Eugene. Well, I hope I have Eugene Carroll's energy when I'm 83. She looks like a rock star. She sounds like a rock star, she acts like a rock star and I very much hope that she finally gets, after all these years, some money both to enjoy herself and, I hope, take her lawyer on holiday, but also to fund all those causes that she wants to fund and to grab back some of the rights that women, incredibly in 2025 have lost. Thank you for joining us. If you have been, don't forget we're independent media, so we appreciate your support. Please subscribe Press our subscribe button Join the Daily Beast community. It's really fun. We have extra content for you and you have access to me and Michael Wolff and various other members of our Daily Beast staff. I wanted to give a belated also thank you to Hugh Docherty for holding fort while I was off for a few podcasts. He did an epic job despite his Scottish accent, which many of you were very flattering about. I know he sometimes feels a bit self conscious about it. I don't know why, but many of you jotted notes and comments down to say how much you enjoyed hearing from him. He's an epic member of our team, so don't forget if you haven't yet been this week as our first lady would order you Bee Beast and a shout out to our top tier Bee Beast members Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel and Freedc. And thank you to our production team, Devon, Roger, Anna von Erssen and Jesse Millwood.
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E. Jean Carroll
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Podcast Host / Advertiser
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- [50:32]
Robbie Kaplan
Want more great listens?
- [50:33]
Eugene Carroll
Check out our comedy podcast the Last.
- [50:35]
Robbie Kaplan
Laugh and our Star Studded the Daily.
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Podcast Host / Advertiser
Beast podcast@thedailybeast.com podcasts if you enjoyed this.
- [50:41]
E. Jean Carroll
Episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the Beast and support all of your.
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Joanna Coles
Podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline.
- [50:52]
E. Jean Carroll
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