This Is Why Jeanine Pirro Defied Trump: Wolff

Summary

The Daily Beast Podcast Summary

Episode: "This Is Why Jeanine Pirro Defied Trump: Wolff"

Host: Joanna Coles
Guest/Co-host: Michael Wolff
Date: August 5, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by Joanna Coles and joined by journalist and author Michael Wolff, delves into the political bombshell of Jeanine Pirro defying Donald Trump over the "reflecting pool" fiasco in Washington, D.C. The pair analyze Pirro’s dramatic turn, the broader dysfunction in the Trump administration, and ongoing political drama from MAGA infighting to Senate machinations and high-stakes media mergers. With biting wit and deep insider knowledge, Coles and Wolff peel back the layers of power, ego, and dysfunction at the heart of contemporary American politics and media.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Jeanine Pirro’s Breaking Point with Trump

• Scene-setting: Pirro is described walking dejected from the White House, “pulling her little bag behind her...as if she’d been made homeless.” (04:18–04:29)
• Trump’s Tactics: Wolff sets the atmosphere of what it's like to be summoned by Trump – a “humiliating” encounter where “he’s mocking, he’s contemptuous, he belittles you...you don’t get out of there without feeling like you have.” (05:12–05:51, Michael)
• Reflecting Pool Scandal: Trump’s obsession with the reflecting pool leads to governmental focus, scapegoating vandals—including an Olympic kayaker—for failed work that Pirro ultimately labels as a contractor error, contradicting Trump’s narrative.
• Pirro’s Stand: Pirro publicly states, “This is not an act of vandalism. It is poor contractor work” (07:13, Joanna), refusing to pursue blatantly unsubstantiated charges.
• Motivation: Wolff attributes Pirro’s decision less to courage than incredulity and self-preservation: “There is some shit I cannot eat.” (17:37, Michael). Coles questions whether this is genuine honesty or convenient scapegoating.
• Aftermath: Pirro is called into the White House, berated, and likely to be fired for not toeing the line, part of a pattern of disproportionately female firings. (18:19–18:30)

Notable Quote:

“Even I, a loyal, abjectly loyal Trump functionary, I can’t do this.” — Michael Wolff (16:37)

---

2. Max Miller, Nepotism, and the MAGA Soap Opera

• Backdrop: Congressman Max Miller from Ohio (married to the daughter of Senator Bernie Moreno) faces a brutal custody battle with allegations of domestic violence—accusations bolstered by previous partner Stephanie Grisham. (21:26–21:54)
• Trump’s Move: With the seat at risk, Trump reportedly calls Miller, warning “this isn’t looking good for you” (24:19–24:26) but the hosts speculate Trump’s real message may differ—a hallmark of Trumpian double-dealing.
• Binary Outcome: Miller’s actions—whether he withdraws or stays—will reveal whom Trump truly supports: “If Max Miller doesn’t get out, that will be because Donald Trump said, you hang in there, boy.” (25:37–25:58, Michael).

Notable Quotes:

“So is it possible that Donald Trump said to Max Miller, hang in there, boy, and then said to Axios, I told him he’s gotta go? Yes, that’s exactly right.” — Michael Wolff (25:14)

“If Max Miller stays in the race, Donald Trump has encouraged him to stay in the race and said, you can brazen this out. Just do what I do. Do a Brett Kavanaugh—just go full anger.” — Joanna Coles (26:10–26:21)

---

3. Senate Politics: Todd Blanche and the Slush Fund

• Confirmation Drama: Senators Cornyn and Tillis cave and drop opposition to Trump’s nominee for Attorney General, Todd Blanche, after receiving non-binding letters regarding closure of a controversial $1.8 billion fund.
• IRS Settlement: Even more significant is a deal giving Trump and family retroactive immunity for potential tax crimes. (28:12–28:33)
• Cynicism: Both hosts note the senators' theatrical resistance masks underlying self-interest: “They were never going to not confirm this guy. The question is how do they get what they want—which is to say, look like they’re significantly stronger than they are.” (29:27–30:53, Michael)

---

4. Trump, the Polls, and Denialism

• Polls at Historic Lows: Trump is described as literally the most unpopular president ever measured (31:19–31:38).
• Denialism and Narrative: Trump dismisses polls, demanding “better polls” from staff and recalling his 2016 upset to rationalize ignoring negative data. (33:35)
• Personality-Driven Politics: The administration, unlike predecessors, is run on Trump’s whims, not poll responsiveness: “The literal reason to be the president is so people can’t tell me what to do. That...is what I’m selling.” (34:26–35:00, Michael)

Notable Quote:

“In the Trump White House...because I’m Donald Trump, I say I don’t believe them [the polls].” — Michael Wolff (33:35)

“He always thinks that he knows better. Polls come in. No, no, no, no. Ignore. I know better.” — Michael Wolff (35:00)

---

5. Foreign Policy Chaos: Iran, Ukraine, and the Child’s Mind

• Erratic Decision-Making: Trump's handling of foreign crises described as “a child’s mind of desires and indecision” (39:27–39:50, Michael), oscillating daily on Iran and Ukraine wars without consistent strategy.
• Lack of Expertise: The dangers of unstaffed ambassadorial posts and a president who ignores briefings are highlighted.
• Consequences: The U.S. teeters toward greater international instability and diminished standing, with adversaries (e.g., Iran) pressing their advantage as Trump faces electoral pressure.

Notable Quotes:

“It’s a policy based on having no information whatsoever.” — Michael Wolff (38:02)
“It’s a mind of...a child’s mind of desires and indecision.” — Michael Wolff (39:50)

---

6. Media Megamergers and the ‘MAGA-Coded’ News

• Paramount & Warner Bros. Discovery: David Ellison, via Skydance, seeks massive media consolidation—enabled by family money and apparent Trump support.
• Antitrust Battle: The Ellisons face lawsuits from Democratic AGs worried about media monopolies and the potential MAGA-ification of CBS News and CNN.
• Trump’s Obsession with CNN: For Trump, CNN’s acquisition looms as a “mortal enemy” to be subdued.
• Spin-Off Solution Likely: The consensus is the deal will only go through if CNN is spun off at the last minute to appease regulators. (55:10–55:50)
• CBS News Turmoil: The controversial hiring of Bari Weiss as CBS News head exemplifies the disruption and political coding of once-mainstream news organizations.

Notable Quotes:

“CNN is his mortal enemy. This has so many layers for him. It’s an obsession.” — Michael Wolff (53:25)
“It’s a minnow eating the whale—minnow with limited experience but with his father’s amazing amount of money.” — Michael Wolff (48:11)

---

7. Media Decline & Nostalgia

• Diminishing Influence: Both 60 Minutes and CNN are depicted as shadows of their former selves, with audience, credibility, and impact diminished despite lingering brand recognition.

Notable Quotes:

“CNN...has a great brand. It’s internationally known. Well, yes...except that no one watches it and no one listens to it…It’s disalignment of brand and reality.” — Michael Wolff (56:52–57:05)

---

Memorable Moments & Banter

• On government dysfunction:
  “The entire government has become focused on this reflecting pool...You have to at some moment take a step back and say, this is ludicrous. And actually, that's what Jeanine Pirro did.” — Michael Wolff (06:22)
• Media dinner candor:
  “It’s weird that you go to dinners and people talk about television news.” — Michael Wolff (57:35)
• Cynicism and clarity:
  “There is some shit I cannot eat.” — Michael Wolff quoting the old expression to explain Pirro’s break point (17:37)
• Closing limericks:
  Coles and Wolff trade limericks poking fun at Trump’s crumbling gravitas and the clownishness of the current administration (60:35–61:04).

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Jeanine Pirro’s White House Exit: 04:18–06:12
• The Reflecting Pool Scandal: 06:12–10:05
• Pirro’s Motivations Discussed: 14:17–18:30
• Max Miller Scandal: 21:26–26:21
• Todd Blanche and Senate Maneuvering: 26:26–30:53
• Trump’s Poll Denial: 31:19–34:26
• Handling Iran and Foreign Policy: 37:30–41:13
• Paramount/Warner/Skydance & CNN: 46:28–56:52
• CBS News, Bari Weiss, and Media Decline: 56:52–58:19
• Limerick Segment: 60:14–61:04

---

Tone and Language

Wry, sharply insightful, often sardonic. Joanna Coles and Michael Wolff lean into their insider knowledge and banter with irreverent humor. Wolff, in particular, never shies away from blunt appraisals or memorable, biting turns of phrase.

---

Summary Takeaway

This episode is a tour-de-force of insider political and media analysis, with Coles and Wolff unpacking the theatre—and tragedy—of Trump's second term, the breaking of previously loyal allies like Jeanine Pirro, and the ongoing erosion of American institutions in politics and media. Their discussion reveals not just the facts, but the psychology, incentive structures, and personalities driving the headlines.

---

For Listeners Who Didn't Tune In

If you missed the episode, you’ll leave this summary with a clear (and often darkly funny) sense of why Jeanine Pirro broke with Trump, the dysfunction gripping American governance and media, and how personality, ego, and cynical calculation continue to shape the course of U.S. history.

Transcript

[Ad Host]

I'll be honest. Shopping for clothes is not my favorite thing. I just want to look good without overthinking it. Stitch fix makes it easy. You take a quick style quiz, your size, your vibe, your budget, and a real human stylist sends a box with clothes that actually fit your life. Try it on at home. Keep what works, send back the rest. Shipping's free. No subscription required. Get $20 off at stitchfix.com Spotify that's stitchfix.com Spotify Evening.

[Michael]

Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car. I'll be moving in. Let's get started.

[Joanna]

Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana.

[Michael]

You what? Yeah. Great price.

[Joanna]

I even have seven days to love it or return it.

[Michael]

So there's no.

[Joanna]

No, no buyer's remorse. More like buyers rejoice.

[Michael]

I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it.

[Joanna]

Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply.

[Ad Host]

See our 7 day return [e-mail] your team just added its 67th AI tool

[Michael]

and also your 67th security blind spot.

[Ad Host]

The good news, the Vanta agent works like a GRC engineer in the background,

[Michael]

finding every app your team uses, scoring the risk and drafting fixes for you. Vanta is the platform used by over 16,000 fast moving companies like Ramp, Cursor and Harvey who are shaping the future with AI and staying ahead of AI risk. Get [e-mail] if it went before a judge, it would be thrown out. She could be sanctioned on this. I think she just said, I can't. There is just no way. Even I, a loyal, abjectly loyal, trump functionary factotum. I can't do this. Let's not call it honesty. I think it's incredulity. I think she said, I'm in a terrible corner here. Some people suddenly say I have a reputation. I have a reputation. I'm Judge Janine. I have a reputation. There's an old expression. There is some. I cannot eat.

[Joanna]

Michael.

[Michael]

Joanna.

[Joanna]

We have new positioning of the microphones.

[Michael]

It's weird.

[Joanna]

It's a little weird. Yeah, I know. I feel like I want to shower and I can't. It's almost as if we're in.

[Michael]

It's like my shoulder is speaking.

[Joanna]

Your shoulder is speaking. It's also a bit like, you know when you see those TV shows and there's someone behind the glass on a phone talking, you know, criminal, and they've got a guest, a visitor. It's a bit like that I feel like you're in jail.

[Michael]

The person is in jail and you're.

[Joanna]

Yes. And you've got to visit them. Yes. The murderer. I wasn't going to say the murderer, but the glass. And then they're on the phone. It feels a little bit like that. Anyway, we have a lot to get to this morning. Jeanine Pirro, Max Miller. What did Trump say to Max Miller? What's happening in the Paramount deal? David Allison wants us to know he's not maga, even if Bari Weiss is MAGA curious or MAGA coded. And Todd Blanche.

[Michael]

Will he or won't he Ascendant. Re Ascendant.

[Joanna]

And we've got Abdul Al Sayed and Hailey Bieber. Not Hailey Bieber. I wouldn't say Hayley Carpenter, but who is Hayley Carpenter? Sabrina Carpenter. Hayley Stevens in Michigan.

[Michael]

It's a white noise last name.

[Joanna]

It's a white, it's a white noise last name. But she's not got a white noise voice, actually, Ailey. She's got a Michigan.

[Michael]

I guess that's where she's going to be defeated on that basis.

[Joanna]

Anyway, there's lots of Michigan in Michigan that we're going to talk about. We're recording this on Tuesday morning and we have no idea what's going to happen. But we do know Melania.

[Michael]

We can get to Melania, too. We can also get to Always, Always,

[Joanna]

Always and the polls.

[Michael]

Money in the bank, Melania.

[Joanna]

Money in the bank. Monetizing the presidency. Why not? He is so. Why shouldn't she? If you haven't already, please subscribe to the podcast. Share it with your friends just like it. Please. We need your support. Independent media. All right, let's get into it. Jeanine Pirro, what's going on there? She looked so dejected when she left the White House, pulling her little bag behind her. What was that about? Why didn't she have someone with her? She literally walks out in like flat weird flip flops with a kind of. Or mules. Flat mules. With pulling her back behind her as if she'd been made homeless, which is odd.

[Michael]

Or an airline stewardess.

[Joanna]

Or an airline stewardess. Her father actually sold mobile homes and there was something about.

[Michael]

But not mobile bags.

[Joanna]

No, not mobile bags, not travel bags. But she, she looked dejected.

[Michael]

What's happening was you would, I mean, to go in. Let me just set the scene of what happens when you're called into the principal. Donald Trump. Donald Trump's principal office.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael]

You're you first thing, you don't say anything. You're there, you're literally called on the carpet, and he literally goes crazy on you.

[Joanna]

And why is it, why do people find it so frightening? Does he just yell and yell and yell? Is the spit coming out? Like, what is the kind of.

[Michael]

Well, you don't get a. Not necessarily. He's not necessarily out of control, but he is. You don't get to say anything. So it's his show entirely. And he is. He can be pretty devastating. He's mocking, he's contemptuous, he belittles you. He, I mean, you, you, you don't get out of there without feeling like you have. It's humiliation. You're an adult woman. Even Janine Pirro, you know, who has

[Joanna]

been humiliated many times.

[Michael]

Humiliated many times. But she's, she's obviously had a substantial career. She is. And a person of, you know, certainly on the right wing of some substance. And then she goes in there and she's reduced to nothing. You are nothing. You can do nothing.

[Joanna]

Okay, so let's set the scene for why he called her in. Because those who haven't been following it as closely as we have, this is to do with the reflecting pool.

[Michael]

Well, I mean, what was that snort? Well, it's ridiculous. The entire government has become, the Trump government has become focused on this reflecting pool. You have to at some moment take a step back and say, this is ludicrous. And actually, that's what Jeanine Pirro did. So that's her sin. She took one step back and thought, oh, my God, can we really pretend?

[Joanna]

Do we know that she did that? Because how do we know that she's not covering something else up?

[Michael]

Oh, this is the Joanna Coles conspiracy theory.

[Joanna]

Well, it's incredibly. I think everybody was surprised, frankly shocked, with the vehemence with which she came out and said, this is not an act of vandalism. This is poor contractor work.

[Michael]

Okay, this is. Let's repeat that. This is not an act of vandalism. It is poor contractor work.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael]

So she just said the truth. She just said not only, not only the truth, but the obvious truth in opposition to what Donald Trump is saying, which is that this, these ref. This reflecting pool, which he is obsessed about. I mean, really, really, he has gone down a. He's gone down the rabbit hole on this reflecting pool. He's going to produce a reflecting pool that is blue, right.

[Joanna]

American flag.

[Michael]

And it has not worked out in any way, shape or form. And a normal president, a normal person would have said, okay, well, you know, you know, there are some problems here. And Quickly stop talking about it. Okay. There are some problems here. There's nothing but problems here. And he can't stop talking about it. Therefore, it became who do I blame? And he blamed who? The vandals.

[Joanna]

The vandals?

[Michael]

What vandals? For what reason? They're vandalizing. And then this particular vandal, who turned out to be a former Olympic contender, a kayaker. A kayaker.

[Joanna]

Kayaker.

[Michael]

And having called attention to this reflecting pool, constant attention to this reflecting pool, it's not unexpected that people would go down and look at this fiasco and in fact, grab little pieces of this thing that's peeling off everywhere.

[Joanna]

Like the first Berlin Wall, where you try and get a little bit of the Berlin Wall when it was coming down. That dates me, but no, I was

[Michael]

there when the wall came down in Berlin, in front of the wall that week, 1989. Extraordinary.

[Joanna]

Yeah, it was extraordinary.

[Michael]

And I've always regret I didn't get a piece of the wall.

[Joanna]

There you go. You could go down. You could. You missed getting a piece of the rubber. Yeah, the rubber.

[Michael]

At any rate. So this be they. They came. Trump demanded these vandals, this kayaker peeling off a little of. Of the. Of the Trump mess, be indicted. This is in Washington, D.C. the U.S. attorney in Washington is Jeanine Pirro. Jeanine Pirro is a former district attorney in Westchester county, then a television judge. I think she had a couple of posts in her television career.

[Joanna]

She was on Fox News justice with just Judge Janine.

[Michael]

I think it was cool. And then she became an active Trump supporter, partly because of the New York connection, partly because she's, of course, a right winger. And then, of course, I spent one evening with her in the Hay Adams Hotel as she proceeded to get drunker and drunker and drunker to the point that I have never been with someone so drunk.

[Joanna]

Was it just the two of you?

[Michael]

For a period, it was just the two of us, but then Steve Bannon's PR person and Steve Bannon's PR person then brought two other people. So there were a few other people there at various points, but it was largely me and the judge.

[Joanna]

But it wasn't a date. She was a source.

[Michael]

Yeah, no, we were talking. I was writing Fire and Fury and. And the Hay Adams Hotel was a very good place to do this because it's right across the street from the White House, and people would come over

[Joanna]

and it's got a bar downstairs, hasn't it?

[Michael]

Yeah, it has a bar and a dining room. Yeah.

[Joanna]

If a chef came out and said, I've never actually cooked this before, but how hard can it be? You'd probably head to another restaurant. Because when something really matters, experience isn't a bonus. It's the whole point. That's why so many people turn to Morgan and Morgan, making it America's largest injury law firm. Morgan and Morgan has a proven track record of fighting for the people for over 35 years with over $30 billion recovered for their clients. Morgan and Morgan knows a thing or two about fighting to get you the compensation you deserve. Hiring Morgan and Morgan is like hiring an army to go into battle. They've got more than 1,000 lawyers and 100 offices nationwide. If you're injured by someone else's neglig, you deserve to be paid. Not all law firms are the same. Hire the wrong one and you may even be beat before you even start to see if you have a case, you can go to forthepeople.com trump so the thing that people might have forgotten about Jeanine Pirro, which I remember because I moved here and was fascinated by the fact that she was the lead, I guess, district attorney in Westchester, and her husband got found guilty of tax evasion for a million dollars. So he ended up going to jail. Trump eventually pardoned him in 2021. But I was fascinated that you could have someone in theory prosecuting the law whose husband went to jail for tax evasion.

[Michael]

Well, it was an anomaly.

[Joanna]

Was it an anomaly?

[Michael]

It doesn't usually happen. And then, and it became, I mean, that was a substantial embarrassment for her. I mean, she was on a trajectory for a political career, senator, governor. And that she was derailed by that.

[Joanna]

Well, and then her husband went on to have an affair with someone who she thought about taping, and that also surfaced. And then he ended up having a kid with someone else, at which point she'd had enough and they got divorced.

[Michael]

And she's had enough. But she still wasn't giving up.

[Joanna]

No, she wasn't giving up. And in fact, it turns out that her career's been much better if you count working for Trump and being the U.S. attorney in D.C. as better than it was when she was married.

[Michael]

But, and she was in an instance, I mean, she did not, she was not a U.S. attorney in the first Trump administration, which was somewhat more restrained in the ass licks that it hired.

[Joanna]

But she was pretty ass licky over the dominion and the election was stone. And when she was working, she was very much in that chorus of Joe Biden didn't win.

[Michael]

But then in the campaign, in the Second administration campaign to turn the Justice Department into Trump's personal law firm. He went out of his way to hire these people who were abjectly lackeys.

[Joanna]

Right?

[Michael]

No, no, no pretense otherwise. And that was Judge Jean in any way, shape or form except the reflecting pool.

[Joanna]

Well, and interestingly, because when she first went after Davey Hearn, the Olympian canoeist, and of all the people that you would arrest, how you would arrest an Olympian, I mean, amazing luck for the Reflecting pool, who I've now come to anthropomorphize because I feel so sorry for it. But amazing that it turns out to be an Olympian that they foolishly arrest. And when she initially goes after him, she behaves as if this is the most egregious crime in America and she is going to bring justice. And now on a Friday afternoon, they release the fact that she, that this is a contractor error. And then Donald Trump pulls herself.

[Michael]

She does, yes. She releases this fact. So she makes herself the, the face of this apology.

[Joanna]

So why is she doing that?

[Michael]

Well, just a slight step back when Trump brings the National Guard into Washington and that was. When are we talking now? Six months ago, Eight months ago. This is part of the ICE and the immigration push. And, and they arrest all kinds of people and all kinds of people and she indicts them. And then almost to a man, to a case, these cases are thrown out, they're all released. And I think then, even then, you saw that she was chastened, I think, by this. So now we come up with this case even more preposterous isn't just flatly not true. It is obviously not true. If it went before a judge, it would be thrown out. She could be sanctioned on this. I mean, she is so Trump. I mean, understand the operation here. Trump wants this done, but she has to do it and she has to do it in her name. So I think it just got to be too much for her. I think she just said, I can't. There is just no way. Even I, a loyal, abjectly loyal Trump functionary factotum, I can't do this.

[Joanna]

So, so you think she's had a burst of heart clutching honesty here? Because I'm not seeing that from anyone else in the government. And I find it unlikely that she's

[Michael]

not, I mean, let's not call it honest, stateless. I think it's incredulity. She couldn't get over this. I mean, somehow in her mind, I think she said, I'm in a terrible corner here. I mean, I am going to look, I do have some kind. You know, some people suddenly say, I have a reputation. I have a reputation. I'm Judge Janine. I have a reputation.

[Joanna]

Does she have a reputation? I mean, this is the woman that said that Donald Trump had won 2020. I mean, she went to, you know, she was battling demeanor.

[Michael]

She's an old expression. There is some shit I cannot eat. And I think that she just came to the end of the road. And I'm sure she now regrets it, by the way, But I think she had a burst of clarity, a burst of just, can I do anything else I got to get out of her?

[Joanna]

And she really blamed the Interior Department. She just said they gave her completely the wrong information, so she threw them under the bus. I mean, I want to believe what you're saying, but I can't help wondering if there's something else afoot. It just seems so unlikely that Jeanine Pirro would reach the piece of. To use your phrase, shit that she cannot eat.

[Michael]

And then she went before. And then the. The further proof of this is that she went. She was called into the White House, called onto the carpet, berated, and will probably be fired.

[Joanna]

Right. Another woman in the parade of people who've been fired. Why. Why hasn't there been a single man who's been fired? The men are just as incompetent as the women.

[Michael]

Yeah, I am. I mean, maybe somehow they are even more abjectly loyal to Donald Trump, although I can't.

[Joanna]

Who, the women or the men?

[Michael]

The men.

[Joanna]

So what happens if Jeanine Pirro is fired? What happens to her? Does she go back on Fox? Does she go to cbs? Bari Weiss could hire her at cbs. Barry, that's an idea for you, Judge Jeanine. She could brighten up the Breakfast Show.

[Michael]

It's good, right? Yeah, no, I think that that's good. Yeah.

[Joanna]

Okay. All right, so we're recording this on Tuesday morning. This morning, Axios reported that Donald Trump had called Max Miller, the congressman, in. Where is he?

[Michael]

I knew you were going to do this.

[Joanna]

Congressman in Ohio who is in the middle of a horrible custody, who is

[Michael]

the son in law of the senator from Ohio. The Republican senator.

[Joanna]

Senior senator.

[Michael]

The senior senator, whatever that means. Bernie Moreno.

[Joanna]

I think it just means he's been there longer.

[Michael]

Bernie Moreno is the Republican senator from Ohio, and his daughter is married to Max Miller, the congressman from a district that includes a piece of Cleveland, I think. And anyway, a. Just think.

[Joanna]

Anyway, he's in a very close moment.

[Ad Host]

But.

[Michael]

But also the nepotism here. Do they all Marry each other. It's the right wingers. Marry the right wingers.

[Joanna]

What about Troy Jefferson in Maine who's married to his second cousin or not? They're not married. He has two children with his second cousin, the guy that stepped in for Graham Platner, and apparently that's very common in Maine.

[Michael]

Yep. But. But she's not in. She's not a Democratic political. She's not at the senator.

[Joanna]

No, no, she's not. But it's just. It's just when you said, are they all related to each other? That's all.

[Michael]

But no, it is. It is. The situation in Maine has nothing to do with the situation in. It's not. There's no parallel here.

[Joanna]

There is no.

[Michael]

So there is a.

[Joanna]

And there's so many important elections today, I'm feeling a bit feverish. Right. I'm making unnecessary connections.

[Michael]

The congressman from. From Ohio is married to the daughter of the senator from Ohio. The Republican congressman married to the daughter of the Republican senator who he then did various things to.

[Joanna]

Well, they're in the middle of a hideous custody battle and divorce, and she's accused him of throwing her against the wall when she was Chang baby, of breaking the child's collobus, all kinds of

[Michael]

things which he denies.

[Joanna]

His previous girlfriend who worked for Donald Trump, Stephanie Grisham, dated him for a bit and then outed him and said that he was an abuser. So this is the second time this has happened to him.

[Michael]

Now, Bernie Moreno has had some problems too, correct?

[Joanna]

Well, Bernie Moreno. So Bernie Moreno has refused to say anything about this divorce case, which has been going on for two years. The accusations have been going on for two years.

[Michael]

No, no, no.

[Joanna]

Until this weekend when he came out and said, Max Miller is not fit to be a congressman. At which point Max Miller said, the only reason you've said this and the only reason you've avoided saying anything is because you had your own media circus. And his own media circus was to do with the fact that it was uncovered that he had a profile on a thing called Adult Friend Finder where he was looking for a young man to travel with and have good times.

[Michael]

Good times.

[Ad Host]

I'll be honest. Shopping for clothes is not my favorite thing. I just want to look good without overthinking it. Stitch fix makes it easy. You take a quick style quiz, your size, your vibe, your budget, and a real human stylist sends a box with clothes that actually fit your life. Try it on at home. Keep what works, send back the rest. Shipping's free. No subscription. Required get $20 [e-mail] Spotify. That's stitchfix.com Spotify.

[Joanna]

So then, then it turned out that the allegation was that one of his interns had created this profile for Bernie Moreno, senior senator.

[Michael]

That's because that's what interns. Ohio, that's what interns do.

[Joanna]

Lose a job.

[Michael]

To curry favor with their way to lose their job.

[Joanna]

Any of our interns do that, they will be out of here now. So we don't quite know the truth about it.

[Michael]

The important point, which I'm not sure

[Joanna]

that we've gotten to, very possibly we

[Michael]

haven't gotten to, is that Max Miller is, has until tomorrow to withdraw from the race. If he does not withdraw, then he is on the ballot and he is potentially beatable. I mean, this is a, it's a

[Joanna]

very, very close race.

[Michael]

Even in Ohio, which is a red state, this is a close, this is a close race and closer still because Max Miller is, is nobody's friend at this point.

[Joanna]

So Donald Trump calls him and says that, he says to Max Miller, this isn't looking good for you.

[Michael]

This is leak to Axios, but this is Donald Trump. So the leak may be different from the actual event or actually what he said.

[Joanna]

So you think it's possible he's leaking something that he didn't say?

[Michael]

Very possible. I mean, remember, he has a lot of. He has, he has to please Bernie Moreno, the senator from Ohio. I mean, he doesn't want. He's already got enough problems with people in the Senate, with Republicans in the Senate. So he has to please him. At the same time, he always has a soft spot for

[Joanna]

rapist. Well, well, alleged rapist. Alleged rapists.

[Michael]

Men who have been accused by women, as he has been accused so many times.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael]

So is it possible that Donald Trump said to Max Miller, hang in there, boy, and then said to Axios, I told him he's gotta go. Yes, that's exactly, that's exactly right. And we will know, we will know the answer to this, of what happened today, because Max Miller, if Donald Trump said to Max Miller, you gotta get out, Max Miller will get out. So that, and that has to happen today. If Max Miller doesn't get out, that will be because Donald Trump said, you hang in there, boy.

[Joanna]

Right. You can write this out so we can figure out it's a domestic, this

[Michael]

is binary, and we will find out which one is true within hours, actually, maybe even as we speak.

[Joanna]

So if Max Miller stays in the race, Donald Trump has encouraged him to stay in the race and said, you can brazen this out. Just do what I do. Do a Brett Kavanaugh just go full anger.

[Michael]

Exactly. He said, you know, I mean, it will just be. Yeah, forget about it. Come on.

[Joanna]

Okay. All right. So you mentioned the Senate. He doesn't want to piss off Bernie Moreno. It looks today. And again, we're recording this on Tuesday morning, it looks as if the Senate are about to confirm Todd Blanche that John Cornyn from Texas and Thom Tillis, the two holdouts, because they said they wanted written proof that their $1.8 billion slush fund had been closed down. They're now satisfied that that's happened,

[Michael]

or they say they're satisfied.

[Joanna]

Right. But the point is they've caved.

[Michael]

Yes, they've caved and have got almost nothing for it. They were issued, apparently. I mean, so Todd Blanche has issued two. Two letters which are. There's some dispute about how binding they are. And I think that the, that the conclusion is that they are not very binding. So Donald Trump will do whatever Donald Trump wants to do. I mean, and he's already. I'm sure. I'm sure he's. Donald Trump is already pissed off that he actually had to even make a feint in the direction of. Of. Of saying that these things that he's not going to get these things. In fact, he has. He has basically said. Just the other day, he said, I, I'm gonna, you know, I'm, I'm gonna.

[Joanna]

Doing it anyway.

[Michael]

We're doing this anyway. But the, the more egregious. This is already egregious, this, you know, this $1.8 billion stuff. But even more egregious is this IRS settlement in which the Justice Department has agreed essentially given Donald Trump immunity on

[Joanna]

his taxes and his family. And his family.

[Michael]

Yes. And so there was a little bit. So they kind of wrote. So Todd Blanche has kind of said, well, that would be. Not apply in the future. Just in the, in the past. Just in the past.

[Joanna]

So they get a retroactive pardon, essentially, for any tax crimes.

[Ad Host]

No.

[Michael]

Tens of millions of dollars could be worth $100 million to.

[Joanna]

I would have thought it'd be worth more than that. I mean, Trump himself has said he made $2.2 billion last year. I'm sure that there is some. Jeanine Pirro husband re Going on there.

[Michael]

Yeah. I mean, I think that this is the, the specific issue is an, Is a holdover tax issue in which there is. That was. That's actually the, The. The amount of money that is at issue is a hundred million dollars.

[Joanna]

I saw that. But I couldn't help wondering if it was more.

[Michael]

I'm sure that there's, I'm sure that there's more. But so the, the interest. And, and we have said this all along. I mean, the issue here is that, that these guys held out. You know, Cornyn and Tillis, like, you know, we're, we're, we're somebody, we've got backbone.

[Joanna]

We're as, we're leaving the Senate.

[Michael]

Yes. All of. And I've, we, we've, we've discussed that even if Todd Blanche is not confirmed, he would go on to be the acting Attorney General and be a threat to these guys. These guys want that. I mean, and essentially they have clearly spent this, the last number of weeks trying to figure out, okay, how can we position ourselves as being, as being, as being good guys and against this, but at the same time, how do we confirm this guy? Because we don't want this hanging over our head.

[Joanna]

Right. And also it's got the, I mean, assuming, because I think Thom Tillis is 66, John Cornyn is 74. They've still got money earning years. Tillis resigned and retired, but John Cornyn wasn't expecting to lose his seat, wasn't expecting Trump to primary him as effectively as he did with Ken Paxton. So he may well want to make some money now.

[Michael]

Yeah, no, no, completely. I mean, they do not want to stop coming out. Exactly. So this is, I mean, this is raw politics that we just see here. They were never going to not confirm this guy. The question is how do they get what they want? Which is to say, look like they're, they're significantly stronger than they are.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael]

And, and yet not be pursued by, by Trump and the Justice Department.

[Joanna]

Yeah, it's kind of, as you say, it's just pure politics and it's just revolting to see it like that. All right, so the polls are literally the lowest they have ever been. This is the most unpopular president since the polls began.

[Michael]

You know, people in the comments keep asking me what I mean when I say literally, which apparently I say often. And now you have picked that up.

[Joanna]

I have picked up your bad habits.

[Michael]

What do we mean when we say literally? We mean literally.

[Joanna]

Yeah, we mean that the, no president has ever been lower in the polls than Donald Trump.

[Michael]

Nixon in the week before he was resigned. But that's it. He's bottomed. He actually, the interesting thing is he hasn't bottomed him.

[Joanna]

It could go lower.

[Michael]

It keeps going lower and lower and lower. He is the most unpopular person in America.

[Joanna]

So what's inside his head when he hears this?

[Michael]

Okay, set this against. And I have a substack piece today on this very subject. I'm glad you asked.

[Joanna]

Okay, I'm very glad to hear that. I will look forward to reading it. I haven't read it yet. Has it already dropped?

[Michael]

Yes, it has. I missed that, and I sent it to you.

[Joanna]

Well, then I just didn't read it.

[Michael]

At any rate, the background of this is. You have to understand, really, it's important to understand. It's kind of gobsmacking. Every White House is governed by the polls. They don't think about anything else, really, except the polls. And any little, little, little movement dictates what they're going to do. And you can say, well, that's, that's terrible, and why would they do this? And nobody has any backbone. But it's also democracy. I mean, this is what we're, we're doing something unpopular. How do we make it, how do we make it more popular? And everybody is, I mean, everybody is hooked to these poses, not just the president or other elected people. It's aides in the White House, it's cabinet members. If the polls suck, somebody's gonna get fired. Often many people are going to get fired. Okay, this is entirely different. In the Trump White House, nothing. It is. We are. The polls say what they say, and because I'm Donald Trump, I say I don't believe them.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael]

So it just is that. I mean, I think that there are two levels here. There's literally, I don't believe them, and I have good reason not to believe them. Remember 2016, nobody ever said I was going to be elected. I never thought I would be elected, and I was elected. So the polls were wrong. And the polls are often wrong. And also, Donald Trump does this other thing. They come to him and they say, this is the polls, and this and that. And he says, bring me better polls. Fox News is streaming live on Fox 1, bringing you the stories you won't hear anywhere else. Live coverage, sharp analysis, real perspective Stream now.

[Joanna]

So why, why are the polls often wrong? How come we haven't got better polling? I understand why Donald Trump sort of thinks that.

[Michael]

I don't know. Joanne. Well, it actually could be. And Donald Trump would. His explanation would be, people love me. They don't admit it because they're liberals and they don't want to. It's the elites. And so it's a secret revolution. And there is some validity to that. But the other Aspect of it is that I'm Donald Trump and I'm the President of the United States. And what is the point of being the President of the United States if I have to been to the polls, right? I mean, I would rather not be the President of the United States. I mean, or. Or the literal reason to be the president is so people can't tell me what to do. That is me, and that is my Persona. That is what I'm selling. And so I remember during the 2024 campaign, you know, he was going after Kamala on a moment by moment basis, and everybody, everybody on his team was going, oh, my God, no, you have to. Mr. President. You have really. We'd be better off if you talked about the economy. And. And then he would do two words about the economy, and then he would be going immediately back to piling on Kamala. And then he would ultimately say. Because they would say, you're wrong. This is. People like, there to be an enemy. They need conflict. I'm going after. They need a face. So he always thinks that he knows better. Polls come in. No, no, no, no. Ignore. I know better. And in instances. There have been enough instances where that's true.

[Joanna]

Yeah, that's very interesting. And I wonder, I mean, I can't help wondering because there's such a feeling in, you know, among the Democrats that I speak to that it's gonna be a blue tsunami in November. And you just wonder, I wonder if there are still people that like Donald Trump enough to not give certainly the Senate to the Democrats. I mean, the House does look like it's in much more.

[Michael]

I think it's. Well, it is going to be. This is going to be a Democratic election. They are going to win, certainly the House, maybe, maybe the Senate. But that won't sway Donald Trump either. I mean, he'll just go on and then it will be either because it's rigged. And remember that that's also the case when he lost in 2020. And instead of being chasing democracy, this is. The people have spoken. No, they didn't speak. It was rigged.

[Joanna]

So he's just living in his own reality.

[Michael]

It's his own reality situation in which Donald Trump can be chastened, in which Donald Trump can be think, I've got to make a change. I've got to adapt. I've got to modify, mollify, whatever. No.

[Joanna]

Okay. So are we. Are we not at war with Iran? He seems to be changing his mind. I saw you did a very good Instagram post on this that we're Literally caught up in the wake of his whims. And one day we're at war, the next day we're not. He's about to bomb them. The Iranians have asked him not to bomb them. So he's not going to bomb them. I mean, it's just chaos. Is this a demented policy? Is it just a chaotic policy? Why is it so bad?

[Michael]

Well, let's look at it something else. It's a policy based on having no information whatsoever. So it is just the guy who basically operates in a vacuum. I mean, he knows, I mean, he comes into this office, the presidency, knowing nothing about being president, all of this.

[Joanna]

Well, he knows a bit because he got more done in his first eight months.

[Michael]

Well, he got eight months. He only got more done by doing it and doing things that have now come back to bite him in the ass, which is why nothing is kind of. Nothing is thought through. Everything is, is done reflexively. Everything is a knee jerk reaction. Every, everything is a reaction and it's a reaction on the spot. So, you know, why are we, why are we in this war? Well, it was suddenly, you know, Bibi Netanyahu came to Washington and said, and said you could win. And he just came off of, off of Venezuela thinking, oh my God, it feels so good to win. Let's go win again. And, and of course that didn't, because it was an entirely different situation. The Strait of Hormuz, where we're back to the Strait of Hormuz. But he didn't have enough information, didn't listen. I mean, well, he can't.

[Joanna]

He doesn't listen. No, he can't listen. He doesn't.

[Michael]

Therefore that kind of, that central fact, this could go grievously wrong. Doesn't cross his mind. I mean, little crosses his mind. The mind itself, which is what we're here talking about is a mind of, you know, it's a child's mind of desires and indecision.

[Joanna]

Well, and also I think he's thought that he can somehow by the sheer force of his personality, will what he wants into being. So he wants to will a victory into being with Iran, but he can't because it's a country and because there are other people in the Middle east and it's not all about him. But he's unable to see beyond that.

[Michael]

Yeah, unable to see, I think is the thing. And it just doesn't have the, I mean, these are complicated issues and you can say what you want about American foreign policy and all its various failures over many decades, but that also includes an enormous number of successes and it's a very complex matrix that you're dealing with at all times and well beyond his capabilities. You know, and he has, you know, obvious, obviously he has access to the, to the, to the best intelligence in the world. But he doesn't listen to it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he just doesn't listen to it. It just doesn't. You. Because you can't get him information. So here we are. So we're in this thing. We don't know what. Last Friday we were going to all out war again. On Sunday it was like, no, no, it's okay, we're negotiating.

[Joanna]

They want to make a deal. They want to make a deal.

[Michael]

And this is this. How many times have we gone through this exact same thing? So there is no consistency here. There is no pattern, there is no plan. I mean, this past week he was on Ukraine and Russia. It was like, Ukraine, Russia, I like Putin, I like Zelensky. What's a guy to do?

[Joanna]

But as we know, the war, and we talked about this a little bit last week, the war seems to be spreading. Ukraine bombed an Iranian ship. It's now spreading out to other countries. There was a piece by, I think it was David French in the New York Times today that you pointed out that said we may be not sleepwalking, we may be wandering into a third world war here.

[Michael]

Yeah, no, no, I mean, this is, you can begin to describe the constellation of factors that bring so many other countries into this, that the conflict just expands, it's not reduced, it's not limited, which is finally the point about a foreign policy establishment, of a well informed foreign policy establishment, that you may not be able to maintain the peace at all times, but you're trying to limit the damage, limit the fallout. And this seems to become greater and greater by the day.

[Joanna]

Well, and also we've got, what is it, 120ambassadorial posts not filled. So that's 120 knowledgeable people on the ground not creating soft relationships, not constantly whispering in the ear of the people running the country. I mean, the British ambassador used to go to, well, certain British ambassadors used to go to number 10 three times a week to sort of fill in what they thought should happen and was happening. And it would be helpful if so to have that many jobs empty also seems like a huge disadvantage on the home front.

[Michael]

I don't, you know, and so somebody, it's interesting to imagine what Marco Rubio, who is again, you know, a relatively sophisticated foreign policy player, what is he Doing what's in his mind, trying to deal with this president is know nothing president. I mean, that's literally the thing. What does this, what's the problem here? The problem is he knows nothing and he won't listen.

[Joanna]

So what, what is Marco Rubio doing there? Does it, does he think he's trying to mitigate the damage that Donald Trump is doing? I mean, last week you said they all go back from Camp David and they all sit there with their wives and Borin, Scott Besant's case, his husband, and just say, fuck Trump. He's a nightmare. You can't imagine what's going on there. You cannot imagine what it's like to have to listen.

[Michael]

Yes, absolutely. And what they are thinking now is, okay, this is bad. How do we limit bad? It will never get better than it is. It will probably get worse. So what do we do? And the answer is, essentially we make a deal in which we give the Iranians the Strait of Hormuz. That's what this is going to be.

[Joanna]

And the $300 billion sitting in a bank account that was.

[Michael]

Yes. In other words, we're going to be at a significant deficit in the Iranian situation than we were when the war began.

[Joanna]

And we'll pretend that it's a victory?

[Michael]

Of course we'll pretend. Yes.

[Joanna]

And then when other people point it out, we'll just say that's fake news. Fake news, Totally. It's all bullshit.

[Michael]

There it is. Except the only problem with this is that the Iranians are not cooperating.

[Joanna]

Right. Exactly. So I was just going to say, what is going on? Well, we don't know. Nobody seems to know. The Iranians don't seem to know what's going on.

[Michael]

Yeah, well, they just say we have the advantage. So keep pressing the advantage. It's what anyone would do.

[Joanna]

And they know it's bad for Trump in the midterms too, and they can sit it out, whereas he's facing another election.

[Michael]

Exactly. Totally.

[Joanna]

I mean, did we just agree on something? It's highly unlikely that that's possible. In the US there's a break in every 26 seconds. But when intruders step near Simplisafe home security steps up. Stop.

[Michael]

This is Simplisafe. Police are on the way.

[Joanna]

Using AI alerts US based live agents

[Ad Host]

help deter break ins.

[Joanna]

SimpliSafe. No long term contracts. Save 50% on your new system with professional [e-mail] Spotify or with promo code

[Michael]

Spotify Outdoor deterrence requires a Simplisafe active guard outdoor protection plan.

[Ad Host]

Starting at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com licenses for alarm license information.

[Michael]

Tennessee 2012.

[Joanna]

All right, so David Ellison, writing this morning in the New York Times, wants to assure us or reassure us that he's not maga. David Ellison being the guy who is the son of Larry Ellison, founder of Oracle, who is trying to create this merger between Paramount, his company, and Warner

[Michael]

brothers discovery, the $200 billion father and the $200 billion son of the father with $200 billion.

[Joanna]

Well, I think it's fair to say he's playing with his father's money. Is that fair?

[Michael]

That is fair, yes. So what has happened is they have, I mean, it's, it's still an extraordinary story. So last August they closed the deal for Paramount, a deal that they basically got because they had the support of, of Donald Trump. Larry Ellison is a major Trump supporter. In September, in David Ellison, when you

[Joanna]

say they got the Paramount, what are you saying? Sky Dance.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Joanna]

So Skydance was David Ellison's company. Right.

[Michael]

A very small, A small company, a nothing company. So David Ellison has limited experience in the entertainment business business. Limited management experience. Nevertheless, he, he took over Paramount, which includes CBS and a host of cable stations including mtv, Comedy Central. And so he, he, in, in one leap, one leap of his father's money, he vaunted to the top of the entertainment industry. That's in August, in September, then he announces, or Paramount announces, that they are going to make a bid for Warner Brothers Discovery, an even larger company, significantly larger than, than Paramount. As a matter of fact, if they acquire with both companies, would make them the largest company in the entertainment.

[Joanna]

So this is a classic case of a minnow eating the whale.

[Michael]

Yes, and a minnow with limited experience but with his father's amazing amount of money. So that's where this. Then they announced this deal for Warner Bros. Discovery, but then Netflix announced a competing bid. So over a number of months they fought that out there. And the Ellisons had two advantages. The Ellison's senior money. So he is essentially a very willing and docile shareholder. And they had the support of Donald Trump. And in order to get this deal through the federal regulatory hurdles was going to be intense. Basically, Donald Trump said, I'm going to help you get this through. So Netflix gave up. So therefore they basically won, or they thought they had won. But then the various states got together and sued them. Sued to stop this deal

[Joanna]

on the grounds that it would be a monopoly on.

[Michael]

Yeah, on pretty tenuous antitrust grounds. I mean, antitrust Is not something. Is not a state. Is not a state issue. It's a federal issue. But there were enough lawsuits here and enough bad press to, well, to make

[Joanna]

the careers of a few attorney generals of the state. These are all. I mean, ags look for cases like this where they can make their name. They're often young people wanting to get higher in politics, and this can be a wave for them.

[Michael]

Yes, no, and, and it was a long. They could, they could. What they could do is waylay this deal for a long time. Long enough to possibly kill the deal, you know, because the people at Warner Brothers Discovery are sitting there, you know, they're, you know, the company. These companies are. Are not performing at their, at their, at their best when they don't know what the future is going to go.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael]

So. But then the, The, The. The Ellisons, it's not necessarily calling their bluff, but it's sort of calling their bluff. And they said, okay, we. We won't.

[Ad Host]

We'll.

[Michael]

We'll delay the close of our deal for, I think, I think up until next spring sometime, something like that. But. And with. With the understanding that they would go to trial as quick. So I'm gonna tell you what's gonna happen with this whole thing.

[Joanna]

Okay, let me just understand one thing. So the AGs are bringing the case on tenuous antitrust laws.

[Michael]

Right. And the other specific issue that they have highlighted, which David Ellison's piece in the New York Times today addresses, is the issue of news. Right now, this is a kind of an anomaly here because this is an entertainment. This will be an entertainment giant of which news is a very, very small part of their portfolio. But that portfolio, with this merger, would include CBS News. 60 Minutes is part of that, and

[Joanna]

CNN and of course, as we've talked about before. But the thing that's been, I think, perhaps unexp expected for David Ellison is the blowback he's got over the changes at CBS News because he put in Barry Weiss, who had created a newsletter called the Free Press, in to be the editor in chief. And Barry Weiss, who's a talented newsletter creator, turned out to have zero management experience and has really, I think it's fair to say, humiliated David Ellison in a way that he probably could not have foreseen. Otherwise he wouldn't have hired her.

[Michael]

Yeah, I might qualify that a bit. That anybody. Any disruption in these legacy news organizations creates enormous amount of blowback. And these are vipers, and they'll bite you.

[Joanna]

Okay, fair. And also we should point out that CBS News has churned through six presidents of CBS News in, I think, six years.

[Michael]

Exactly.

[Joanna]

That is not a place where news presidents go to.

[Michael]

Now, another important element there is that the news side of this is what is dearest to Donald Trump. So Donald Trump has shepherded the Ellisons along here on the prospect of winning what for Donald Trump would be an ultimate battle, the battle for cnn in Donald Trump's mind, again, where we should always be, where we always are, is this. CNN is his mortal enemy. This has so many layers for him. It's an obsession.

[Joanna]

It's right up there with the reflecting pool.

[Michael]

Yes. Even bigger than the reflecting pool. Yes. And so that's what's going along. And I mean, that's what's pushing this along. And that's what the Ellisons know they have. This is CNN is the chit here that is going to. It is both helping them with Donald Trump and hurting them with the various states and the various AGs, all, by the way, blue states and Democratic states. So this is, you can see this actually writ large as about Donald Trump. Now, the other thing which is kind of odd is that cnn, which has become so central to this, is functionally, it's almost as if thinking about CNN as we once thought about cnn, I mean, CNN is a much diminished enterprise. It's diminished in audience, it's diminished in revenue, it's diminished in influence. You know, it's part of cable television, which is fast shrinking. And it's one of the arguments that basically the Ellisons are making in terms of antitrust. You know, we, I mean, David Ellison is saying, you know, this is a legacy media organization at a moment when legacy media organizations are collapsing.

[Joanna]

So just to be clear, the issue here for the antitrust is the, the assumption that there will be a merging of CBS News and cnn. So you take one news station out and you make it more, probably more MAGA coded.

[Michael]

Yes, yes. So you want to know what's going to happen?

[Joanna]

Tell me what's going to happen. I have no idea what's going to happen. I wish you could tell me what's happening in the Strait of Hormuz. Tell me what's happening in the Strait of Paramount.

[Michael]

They will go to the trial, will approach and the day before or two days before hours, an hour before they get to trial. Because nobody is going to want to go to trial on this. The Ellisons are not going to want to go to trial. The AGs are not going to want

[Joanna]

to go to trial. Nobody's going to want to go to trial.

[Michael]

Nobody ever Wants to go to trial.

[Joanna]

Except the lawyers. The lawyers want to go to trial.

[Michael]

So what will happen is that they'll spin off CNN day before the trial, two days before the trial hours.

[Joanna]

Interesting, interesting.

[Michael]

That will solve the problem. The ags will agree to this. They'll say, okay, that's a settlement we won. And the Ellisons will say, okay, yeah, well, cnn, you know, well, it's not really the business that we're in.

[Joanna]

Right, well, that's very interesting. So we should. We should be watching this.

[Michael]

Yeah, no, we could buy cnn.

[Joanna]

We could buy cnn. Well, Barry Diller, our partner in the Daily Beast, has made it clear he would love to buy cnn.

[Michael]

I think you and I are going to cnn.

[Joanna]

Well, that would be fun. That would be fun. Although I think, in truth, Michael, we have bigger audiences.

[Michael]

We actually have a much bigger audience than anything on CNN at this point. I mean, cnn. I mean, that is a really. I mean, a curious situation that we continue to think of CNN as cnn, but it hasn't been CNN for quite some time.

[Joanna]

But it has a great brand. It's internationally known.

[Michael]

Well, yes, it has all that, except that no one watches it and no one listens to it and no one pays attention to it. So it's one of those things. It's a disalignment of brand and reality.

[Joanna]

So I was at a dinner last week where almost the entire conversation was about the new correspondence on CBS's 60 Minutes. And then someone else said, you know, they've only got six weeks to get their new show, their new version of 60 Minutes on the air, which doesn't seem very long. I mean, to make television. Television takes forever to make a lot of people. What is your mix to how it bounces?

[Michael]

I don't know, but it's weird that you go to dinners and people talk about television news.

[Joanna]

Well, it was the dinner of journalists, but people were passionate about it. People were very passionate about it.

[Michael]

I know, because.

[Joanna]

And they should be.

[Michael]

I mean, that is really their issue, their problem. And they still continue to exist in this bubble of thinking that this is as important as it used to be. I mean, that's a reality problem.

[Joanna]

But what's interesting is that the brouhaha around CBS and about Bari Weiss has been the thing that has dogged David Ellison since this deal has been in the office.

[Michael]

Well, it's only. It. It's only the thing that we think dogs him. Because these are the people that we know who are concerned about that.

[Joanna]

I mean, the thing that dogs him, not just us. It's you know, the entire media has been watching what's going on.

[Michael]

Well, the entire media is, because that's about them. Outside of the media, actually, there are much larger problems that David Ellison has had with this. The Netflix issue, which ultimately was an issue of who's going to pay more money. The regulatory issues is ultimately an issue of what Donald Trump is, is thinking. Not to mention they have their, their, they have a sprawling cable business that is hemorrhaging every as, as we speak here. It's, it's, it's, it's diminished even more. I mean, this is the movie business. Oh my God. I mean, actually, I think it's fair to say that this deal is only happening because Larry Ellison has just money to, just doesn't. It's what would be called a non economic deal.

[Joanna]

A non economic deal.

[Michael]

So whatever. I mean, the news component of this, the Bari Weiss component, I'm sure David Ellis is saying, yeah, Bari Weiss, but, but nevertheless, the Bari Weiss component allows him to solve the Donald Trump component of this. So he's probably not unhappy with this. And 60 Minutes, again, 60 Minutes is not 60 Minutes. We say this as though it's the most important piece of news in the nation. As arguably certainly the most important piece of television news. You might have, it might have once been. It is not now. It's like some horry, you know, who watches it, except, you know, except very, very old people.

[Joanna]

All right, we've got two limericks this week. Garfried is back from a brief vacation. Garfried, welcome home.

[Michael]

Where was he?

[Joanna]

I don't know where he was actually, but he took a break.

[Michael]

I hope that's maybe in the limerick.

[Joanna]

It's not in the limerick. Actually. Garfried, you may want to do a limerick about your vacation.

[Michael]

I think Garfried should start to do limericks about himself.

[Joanna]

Trump's gravitas nothing but costume and Camp David is shrouded in gloom. With his loyalists grinning and his doubters all spinning he goes marching to war self foredoomed is foredoomed. A word, probably a limerick word. And then we've got edit's whose. A presidency that burst into power is instead this year tending to sour. He's headed for a downfall that looks more like a clown fall as he squirts himself in the face with his own flower. That's good. Squirting himself in the face with his own flower. Thank you. And do you know what I've forgotten to do? I've forgotten to print out the alternate covers. Some of you've done for J.D. vance's book Communion. A lot of people thought we hadn't read it. We so read it. It took us forever to read it. We struggled reading it. Cause it's a hard read.

[Michael]

I can't believe that we spoke about it for quite some time.

[Joanna]

I know, I know we did. We definitely read it. Several hours of my life I'll never get back. Anyway, if you have been, thank you for joining us. And someone sent us two books on truth, science, faith and trust, picking up from our conversation that we had last week about COVID and Anthony Fauci. So we wanted to thank Elaine Miller for sending us both the Road to Wisdom, which is by Francis Collier, who is a former head of the nih.

[Michael]

And this is a Pro Fauci book.

[Joanna]

I don't think it's a Pro Fauci book, is it?

[Michael]

I don't know.

[Joanna]

I think it's a sort of pro science book. I don't know. Well, we can read it.

[Michael]

Thanks for not being mean to Anthony Fauci.

[Joanna]

That's nice, isn't it?

[Michael]

Yeah. Well, I feel bad. It seems like an opportunity to have

[Joanna]

been mean to him, but yeah, you're mean to everybody else. Anyway, thank you very much, Elaine Miller, for sending us these books. We're now going to have to read them. What a Tuesday. We've got a lot to watch. We've got Ohio to watch and find out what's happening to Max Miller. We've got to find out what's happening in Michigan and who wins. Whether or not it's. It's Abdul El Sayed or Hayley. What did we say her last name was? Stevens. Not Bieber, not Haidi Bieber. Well, we'll be back on Thursday. It's rather an exciting week, isn't it?

[Michael]

Yeah. No, I wonder. Max Miller. Well, we'll speak later today. It's a countdown.

[Joanna]

It's the Max Miller Countdown. The Max Miller Countdown. The Max Miller Countdown. Always good to see him in the studio.

[Michael]

Always good to be here.

[Joanna]

All right, if you have been, thank you for joining us. Would you like to thank our team, seeing as you're in the room with them?

[Michael]

Ryan, I couldn't do it without you. John, you make all the difference. Heather. Oh, my God. Nobody like Heather. Neil. Neil, the lawyer. And Rachel, who I don't know who you haven't met.

[Joanna]

So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now. There are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support.

[Michael]

Summer's full of reasons to look your best to Kovis has everything you need to show up in style. Their Western boots are handcrafted in over 200 steps by hand with premium cowhide and exotic leathers. Stop by your local Tocovis store for the full experience, free drinks, boot shines and complimentary boot branding to make your pair truly yours. Their team is there to help you find exactly what fits your summer. And of course, you can always stop by tocovis. Com to Covas Forever West.