Why Trump's Boundless Ego Is Sabotaging Him: Wolff

Summary

Episode Overview

Theme:
This episode, hosted by Joanna Coles with guest Michael Wolff, explores the growing backlash against Donald Trump’s ever-expanding ego and self-promotion, focusing on the ways his attempts to dominate cultural and political symbols—particularly sports—are backfiring. The discussion weaves through Trump's presence and performance at major sporting events, his controversial transformation of the White House for a UFC fight, the politicization of the upcoming World Cup in America, and broader commentary on Trump’s unyielding personality, its effects on those around him, and the state of US politics and governance under his influence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump at Sporting Events: Booed, Ignored, and Out of Touch

• Joanna recounts attending a Knicks playoff game and observing Trump’s presence in a Lexus box with Doug Burgum and Steve Witkoff. Despite heavy security and anticipation, Trump is met with a “resounding boo” from the crowd when shown on the screen, then ignored for the rest of the night—indicating his waning cultural influence outside his base.
  • Notable Quote:

    “They flashed a picture of him up in his Lexus box…there was a resounding boo when his picture came up at the same time as the national anthem.”
    – Joanna (06:02)

• Michael notes that inside the White House, there’s vigorous competition to be seen at Trump’s side during such events, revealing how proximity to power overrides substance.
  • Quote:

    “There’s an incredible competition within the White House to be by his side… a desperate effort to be with him at any sporting event.”
    – Michael (07:07)

• Trump’s attempts to leverage sports for his political image are increasingly turning against him.
  • Quote:

    “He shows up at a premier game in New York and gets booed. He destroys the White House environment for his own satisfaction and grift. And the World Cup…should be a celebration, and instead it’s a polarizing event—all with Donald Trump’s name on it.”
    – Michael (22:36)

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2. The UFC at the White House: Ego, Grift, and Uproar

• Trump’s decision to host a major UFC fight on the White House lawn, tearing up the historical grounds, is dissected as emblematic of his disregard for institutional norms and focus on spectacle.
  • Quote:

    “The pictures of the claw, as it’s known, this 92-foot sort of octagonal structure…It towers above the White House…Trump has turned the White House into a set for Dana White, the CEO of UFC Fighting, an old friend.”
    – Joanna (12:17)

  • The event, coinciding with Trump’s birthday and the US’s 250th birthday, is both a personal and national spectacle. Ticket sales are sluggish, pointing to disconnect between Trump’s perception and public appetite.
  • The UFC event is deeply unpopular and interpreted as a symbol of ego and misjudgment.
  • Quote:

    “He is doing things fundamentally to his detriment. …This is a key part of his accomplishment—I can do anything. And nothing can restrain me, not even the gravitational laws of politics.”
    – Michael (15:27)

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3. World Cup 2026: Political Symbolism and Immigration Anxiety

• The arrival of the FIFA World Cup in the US, which Trump helped bring to America, is now marred by polarized immigration politics and a heavy ICE presence that discourages attendance.
  • “Now, it has become a symbol of the immigration issue and not a positive symbol for Donald Trump.”
    – Michael (16:48)
  • Ticket sales are lagging as people fear ICE raids and the heavier logistical burdens (expensive flights, slow visas).
  • Joanna highlights:

    “Even if you’re not anxious about being arrested by ICE, you don’t want to go to a sporting event where ICE might be arresting people...it’s a horrible thing to see, and it cuts straight through the heart of having a good time at a soccer game.”
    – Joanna (19:21)

• The conversation points out how Trump’s insistence on inserting himself into every cultural arena backfires when things go awry—the backlash becomes personalized to him.

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4. Trump’s Psychology: The “Reality Gap” and the Cost of Loyalty

• Trump’s inability to admit mistakes or see consequences is described as a core, and uniquely damaging, part of his character.
  • “He is a person who cannot fathom that, that cannot fathom that there actually is a politics here. Instead, he just sees himself. It’s only he who exists.”
    – Michael (29:58)
• The Kristen Welker interview is referenced as an exemplar of Trump’s mode of confrontation—what others read as performance or strategy is simply his baseline.
  • Quote:

    “What you saw in that [Meet the Press] interview is what everyone around him sees all the time…the people around him, his aides, friends, family…you can’t disagree with him, you can’t interrupt him. If you say it isn’t [right], then you’re my enemy.”
    – Michael (24:02)

  • Trump’s world is described as “a reality gap…alarming and widening.” (29:20)
• The episode explores the psychology of those who work for Trump, highlighting how their careers are shaped or often ruined by proximity (i.e., Todd Blanche and the “honor” of working for Trump; 31:03–32:42).
  • Quote:

    “Everything’s an honor. What is he talking about?” – Joanna (31:45)

  • The only real skill that matters is managing Trump; competence and independence are liabilities.
  • “The way [Blanche] is going to look at that is: whatever happens, if I accomplish that, I am far ahead of where I was.”
    – Michael (33:18)
  • Yet, as with Jeff Sessions, ultimate ruin is more likely than advancement.

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5. Cabinet Churn, Grift, and Positioning for the Future

• Discussion of cabinet shakeups, sidelined ministers, and the ascendant sycophancy within Trumpworld. RFK Jr. and Kash Patel are profiled as officials seeking their next act and managing Trump above all else.
  • “It is all about one thing. Not my competence…It’s about my ability to manage Donald Trump.”
    – Michael (32:42)
  • Joanna:

    “You have long predicted that either he [RFK Jr.] or Kash Patel will be the next cabinet ministers to fall…reminding people we’ve lost four women cabinet ministers and we haven’t lost a single man yet.” (44:57)

• The status and maneuverings of figures like JD Vance, Boris Epshteyn, Todd Blanche, and others are discussed, especially regarding political strategy and self-interest.

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6. California Politics, Book Recommendations, and Limerick Fun

• Michael tips “City on the Edge” by Jonathan Weber (50:31) as a must-read for understanding the intersection of tech, politics, and San Francisco, foreshadowing the 2028 race.
• Joanna corrects a previous error about California's first Latino governor, acknowledging Romaldo Pacheco's place in history (52:27).
• End segment features humorous limericks on Trump’s antics, contributed by listeners.
  • Sample Limerick:

    “Donald’s USA 250 / is looking increasingly shifty. / No one wants to sing / in a UFC ring / or bow before President Grifty.”
    – Paul Watson (53:45)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (With Timestamps)

• On Trump at sporting events:

  “There was a resounding boo when his picture came up at the same time as the national anthem.”
  – Joanna (06:02)

• On the White House UFC fight:

  “He is doing things which are fundamentally to his detriment…because this is a key part of his accomplishment. I can do anything. And nothing can restrain me.”
  – Michael (15:27)

• On the World Cup and ICE:

  “Even if you’re not anxious about being arrested…that’s not something you want. It’s a horrible thing to see.”
  – Joanna (19:21)

• On Trump’s psychological mode:

  “This is literally the way he is with everyone…the people around him, his aides, friends, family…you can’t disagree with him, you can’t interrupt him. If you say it isn’t, then you’re my enemy.”
  – Michael (24:02)

• On managing Trump:

  “It is all about one thing. Not my competence, not my accomplishments, not my ideologies, not my policies…It’s about my ability to manage Donald Trump.”
  – Michael (32:42)

• Listener limerick:

  “Donald’s USA 250 / is looking increasingly shifty. / No one wants to sing in a UFC ring / or bow before President Grifty.”
  – Paul Watson (53:45)

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Detailed Timestamps for Key Segments

• Trump at the Knicks game – Booed and ignored: 06:02–08:29
• Discussion of symbolism and sports in Trump’s campaign: 10:44–16:09
• UFC fight at White House, ego, and grift: 12:15–16:09
• World Cup, ICE, and immigration politics: 16:48–20:38
• Trump’s psychology and management reality: 21:23–29:54
• Todd Blanche, sycophancy, and careerism: 31:03–34:57
• RFK Jr. and cabinet sidelining: 41:39–44:57
• H1B visas & Silicon Valley politics: 47:01–49:25
• California politics & book recommendations: 49:51–52:27
• Listener limericks and show close: 53:45–55:40

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Tone & Language

The conversation is sharp, witty, and frequently sardonic, with both hosts blending personal anecdotes, caustic humor, and serious political analysis. There’s a consistent undercurrent of exasperation but also fascination with Trump’s relentless self-assertion and the oddities of U.S. politics under his sway.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode vividly illustrates how Donald Trump’s self-serving instincts—his “boundless ego”—are now alienating both cultural and political constituencies he once sought to rally. Through the microcosm of sports, Cabinet drama, and the psyche of those in his orbit, the hosts argue that Trump’s inability to change course or take counsel is not only isolating him but creating mounting backlash, even among the arenas he once dominated. It’s a compelling, incisive portrait of politics as personality cult, and what happens when the cult leader begins to lose the crowd.

Transcript

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[Michael]

created a set of symbols here that are going to hurt him rather than help him. He shows up at a at the premier game in New York and gets booed. He destroys the White House environment for his own satisfaction and grift. And the World cup comes to America. This should be a celebration of nations and instead it's a polarizing event all with Donald Trump's name on it.

[Joanna]

Michael, Joanna, you are wearing your shirt or your cardigan which reminds me of crop circles even though there is no crop circle on it.

[Michael]

And as I think I pointed out the last time I Wore this, my 10 year old daughter says it looks like the Gestapo. So I have some sympathy for poor Graham Platner. Not too much sympathy, but a little sympathy.

[Joanna]

A little sympathy. As a mother of two sons, I can quite believe that he was drunk with his mates in Prague, a foreign country, when he got a tattoo and didn't quite understand the symbolism of it. And I'm glad he's had it tattooed over, I think with an animal.

[Michael]

Well, let me just say that I know your, your sons, your quite responsible sons, at least one who has worked for me in the past. And I would find it hard to believe they would end up with a tattoo of unknown meanings on their chest.

[Joanna]

Well, I'm glad you say that, but you just never know. You never know. One day at a time with kids, right? All kids anyway, as you say, it's Graham Platner's big day. Primary in Maine. But I'm still feeling a little crushed last night from the Knicks loss, I will be honest with you. But I was fortunate enough to actually,

[Michael]

in my long history with you, is now going on 25 years. I've never heard you once mention the Knicks or any sporting team.

[Joanna]

Well, this season I've become a fan and had the good fortune to go to the game last night. And what was so interesting, first of all, it was a very, very loud, very good natured crowd, apart from when they flashed up Donald Trump's face, who was in the Lexus box with Doug Burgum and your friend Steve Witkoff. And what was absolutely fascinating was it took 45 minutes extra to get in. They'd sent out tons of warnings, you know, two and a half, three hours. Allow that extra time for security, we had to line up on West 33rd Street. But then actually, once you were through the metal detectors, it was fairly straightforward into Madison Square Garden, which is constantly touting itself as the world's most famous arena, which I wonder if that's true. I actually think Wembley is probably more famous. But whatever, let's leave that to one

[Michael]

side, not to Americans.

[Joanna]

No, possibly. But they were claiming they were the world's favourite or the world's most famous. And I think Wembley is. Cause soccer is a bigger sport than basketball in anyway. Globally. Globally.

[Michael]

So you think the world knows about Wembley? I mean, we don't, but maybe the. Maybe the soccer playing world does. And actually let us get to soccer shortly because it's obviously not only on the sporting agenda, but on the political agenda.

[Joanna]

We can get to the World Cup. We can get to why Usha Vance and JD Vance are having another baby. We can get to why RFK is failing to show up at work. And you have a very interesting theory about it. We can also look at Trump's claims of California voter fraud. Cause we still don't know who's number

[Michael]

two in that press interview, which is resounding through the political ecosystem.

[Joanna]

Yep. Kristen Welke, where he stalked out of a Wisconsin barn. It was the most peculiar staging for an interview too. But, oh, and then we have to talk about ufc, we have to talk about Dana White and the tearing up of the White House South Law.

[Michael]

No, the sports becomes Trump and sports becomes a certain apolitical theme right now.

[Joanna]

Right. But what was so curious about last night? So, I mean, there was a sort of good natured vibe as everybody was waiting to get in, but there was a sort of low level. God, it's such a. No, it's so annoying that he's coming. Then there were videos going round of the motorcade coming up. But when we Got into the stadium, which was full of excitement because of the game, not for Trump. Trump was probably the least important of any anything or anyone there. They flashed a picture of him up in his Lexus box and then nobody gave him any mind. Nobody paid him attention. There was a resounding boo when his picture came up at the same time as the national anthem on the kind of big display screens that they have there.

[Michael]

Oh, hell. Resounding a pro forma boo. That's Trump. Or a real a wave boo.

[Joanna]

It was a sort of jacked up crowd because everybody was hoping that they were going to win their third playoff final in a row, which sadly, they almost did, but didn't quite. But what was interesting was nobody had any interest in Trump. Nobody cared. It was all about the game. And he didn't try to take advantage of anything. He just happened to be there. It felt like he couldn't have been less important.

[Michael]

He was there with the retinue. So the interesting backstory here to when Trump shows up at these sporting events, which is fairly often, is that there's an incredible competition within the White House to be by his side and, you know, I mean, jockeying for position, playing politics, a desperate effort to be with him at any of the sporting events he goes to.

[Joanna]

Well, it was just curious. Cause I thought, oh, he's gonna. He's gonna feel like he will have a big presence here. It felt like he had zero presence. It was all about the players. It was really all about Jalen Brunson, the main Knicks player. But it was just an interesting experience. And I was sitting right. We were sitting right across the stadium from him. Literally. It felt like he was in the same seat, but right in a box, right across the other side of the stadium. But it seemed to have bulletproof glass, I think. So the pictures I took weren't very good. We'll flash up a couple, but you can see very clearly Doug Burgum won the internal battle to be with him, as did Stephen. And then it looked like maybe Steve Witkoff's son and possibly his wife. Anyway, he made no impression on the crowd other than the initial boo. And the boos were much louder than any kind of cheer he got.

[Michael]

And any reaction that you could see on his face when the boos around

[Joanna]

him, he looked absolutely. He looked, I was taking photos madly. He looked straight ahead. And then there was a moment where when the national anthem was on, he did his, which I always feel embarrassed for him when he does that salute because you feel that he doesn't really know what he's doing with it and it just looks as if he's playing president.

[Michael]

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[Joanna]

I would say apart from the security, he had zero impact on on the game, except of course the Knicks lost. So maybe they were pissed that he turned up.

[Michael]

So the symbolism of sports and sporting events is central to Trump, how he thinks about himself and also how he campaigns. I mean, it's a set piece for him to show up at a sporting event. And let's remember that basically he comes out of the sporting business or at least that's one of the business he comes out of. And once when I asked him what he would do if he weren't in politics, if he could do it over again, what's his ideal job, he said as a sports promoter. But the question now at this moment, as so much seems to be turning against him, is this sports symbolism also turning against him? We have the UFC fight that is being staged for his birthday and for the 250th birthday theoretically of the country, which involves tearing up almost the entire White House grounds, which it certainly seems to me is one of those things which is redounding not at all to his credit, but another piece of his effort, highly unpopular effort, to remake the White House, remake Washington, to do what he wants to do when he wants to do it.

[Joanna]

The pictures of the claw, as it's known, which is a 92 foot sort of octagonal structure for those who haven't seen it is. I mean, it towers above the White House. You can see the White House through it, apparently. And I find this absolutely remarkable. The players are going to come out from the Oval Office. So basically, he's turned the White House into a set for Dana White, the CEO of ufc Fighting, an old friend of Trump's. He's endorsed Trump. And it's this weird mixed martial arts thing, which is supposed to be the fiercest of fighting. And it's just exactly everything that the White House is not. Not for. And then there was a strange quote that Trump gave to Time magazine where he said, life is a gimmick, if you think about it, but it's a good gimmick. What are you talking about? The one thing that life isn't is a gimmick. There are many other things you can do with it. And then I think he said. I actually wrote this quote down twice. He said, you only live once. Yeah, it's a gimmick, but it's a good gimmick.

[Michael]

No, Well, I think it's. That's, you know, that's kind of penetrating. I mean, that is how Donald Trump has lived his life. I mean, very much so. Donald Trump's politics. Very much. That's it. Now, the interesting thing here is it's a kind of. I mean, right. Right now, it seems to me he's living this. This marked tension between what he wants to do and what good politics says he should be doing. And while most politicians, of course, would give into good politics, he is again and again and again insisting on what he wants to do. So this is a terrible idea, the UFC fight, putting this on in the. Despoiling the. The White House grounds. But he's going to do it anyway, right?

[Joanna]

And apparently they're struggling to find people to buy the tickets. Various, you know, people in the military have been dragooned into bringing people, and they've all. I think they're being selected for sort of height, so they look all very similar, but it's not turned out to be as popular as. As he thinks, I think. And he also said it's something that will never happen again. No one will ever have the privilege of doing something like this in front of the White House, probably because he's gonna tear the White House down at this point. It's going to be very unique. It's going to be amazing. I think it's great for America, frankly. The. Frankly, there also is just. It's beyond. It's beyond humorous. If he weren't the president, this would be hilarious. But he is ripping up the White House lawn for his horrible, horrible fighting friends.

[Michael]

Again, keep your eye on this. That he is doing things which are fundamentally to his detriment. So why is he doing that? Why would you do this? And I think that the answer is because this is a key part of his accomplishment. I can do anything. And the fact that. And nothing can restrain me, not even the gravitational laws of politics.

[Joanna]

Well, and I'm assuming there's some grift

[Michael]

here, too, you know, because, I mean, he's an investor in the UFC company, right?

[Joanna]

So this is going to be globally. This is global publicity for him on the. You know, and it's supposed to celebrate the signing of the. The independence.

[Michael]

The independence.

[Joanna]

What is that? What's happened to me this morning?

[Michael]

Because you're British, perhaps you had that get stuck in your throat.

[Joanna]

I've wiped it out. I've wiped it out. What was it? The Declaration of Independence, which apparently he's now got hanging. Is it in the Oval Office? And everybody said to him, you shouldn't have it hanging there because the light is destroying it. So it's behind a curtain.

[Michael]

We'll go on to this. So the other sporting event, the World cup, and remember, I mean, Trump was once in the soccer business. He sponsored one of the first soccer teams and tried to organize a U.S. soccer league. And now we're going back, what, 35, 40 years. So the World cup is here. He was very much an advocate to bring it here. And now it has become a symbol of the immigration issue and not a positive symbol for Donald Trump as so much of the immigration. The symbolism of immigration has turned against him.

[Joanna]

Right. And of course, because soccer's so popular in the Latino community, and, you know, it's the most popular game. I mean, it's the most popular game in the world, but it's incredibly popular in South America. So you think of Brazil, you think of Argentina, all of whom have won the World Cup, Uruguay, I mean, they produce these incredibly strong teams. And of course, now sales are sluggish because Mark Mullen, Mark Wayne Mullen, who of course, took over at the Department of Homeland Security after Christine. Christine Noem was fired, is saying to people, well, you know, crowds attract criminal behavior. We're looking for criminals. We're gonna have a presence at many of these games. So sales have been sluggish. People are frightened to go.

[Michael]

And let's be clear, the presence is an ice presence, right?

[Joanna]

It's an ice presence. Yeah. They're putting people in to look for

[Michael]

people I mean, this is. In which is everybody. Obviously, this has occurred to many people, this is a fertile ground for making immigration arrests.

[Joanna]

Right. But it's also a way of destroying the reason to bring the World cup to America. I mean, how is this going to help anybody?

[Michael]

No, so much. Everything becomes a contradiction in this Trump tension between what he can do and the other thing that he wants to do. And. And it all gets jumbled up in a mess, which is.

[Joanna]

No, it's a total mess. And people are also complaining. It's much harder to get a visa to get here. Air prices from Europe and from South America have gone up because of the increase in gas. And so it's a sort of triple whammy. You've got expensive flights, hard to get visas. They're messing people around, and they're taking longer, apparently. And the ticket prices are high. And you've got the presence of ice. And even if you're not anxious about being arrested by ice, you don't want to go to a sporting event where ICE might be arresting people. That's not something that you want. It's a horrible thing to see, and it cuts straight through the heart of having a good time at a soccer game.

[Michael]

So part of the. What Trump has tried to do is impose himself on virtually every aspect of American life, or even world life. And the problem with that is that if this starts to go wrong, everything then begins to remind everyone that Trump is responsible for this. Everything becomes a negative for Donald Trump.

[Joanna]

Well, the other obvious thing to say about any sporting event is that there's a winner and a loser usually. And so I'm sure he's trying to align himself with the winners here. But some of the reading I've done around the ufc, you know, one of the problems is that a lot of people don't know who the fighters are. There are one or two fighters that everybody knows. But the point about a sort of soccer team or a basketball team is that it's sort of. You're a member of a tribe. You're less likely to be a member of a UFC tribe because the fighters are individuals. So it's an interesting difference between the audiences, too, the fact that I don't

[Michael]

exactly see the connection here, but neither of us know anything about sports, I should say, in this discussion. So maybe we've run the course that Donald Trump will be the loser.

[Joanna]

Well, definitely that. But all I would say is it's about the fan base. And it turns out that the fan base for something like UFC is different to being a Knicks fan or being a Spurs fan, which is something you do for years. And finally when your team makes it to the playoffs, there's sort of ecstasy. The city's on edge. The whole thing is very, very exciting. Whereas for ufc, you're just intrigued certain individual fighters who come and go much faster. And there's no real fan base other than for the sport. It's not tribal in the way that baseball or basketball or soccer.

[Michael]

Well, as I say, I think we're in over our heads here, because I have no idea what the relevance of that is to Donald Trump, but

[Joanna]

I think it's about winners and losers. And he wants to align himself with winners because he sees himself as a winner. And he's tired where America's tired of all his winning, as he warned us we would be.

[Michael]

And my point is just that he's created a set of symbols here that are going to. Are going to hurt him rather than help him. He shows up at the premier game in New York and gets booed. He destroys the White House, the White House environment, for his own satisfaction and grift. And the World cup comes to America, and this should be a selling celebration of nations, and instead it's a polarizing event, all with Donald Trump's name on it.

[Joanna]

Right. And it does feel a little bit like this is all closing in on him, at least in that moment when he stormed out of the interview with Kristen Welker on NBC's Meet the Press.

[Michael]

You have more evidence, there's more evidence than ever presented. Your elections in this country, we're like a third world country. Your elections are crooked and you're crooked and Meet the Press is crooked. And I've given you enough time. You ought to straighten out your press, because you know what? A country can never be great with a dishonest.

[Joanna]

Listen, we traveled all the way to Wisconsin for this interview.

[Michael]

You know, I mean, I think that that's partly true. But then the other message and the other takeaway from, from that kind of incredible display is that this is the way he is with everyone. So it appeared he is a face off with the media, with Meet the Press, with him being confronted by questions he didn't want to answer. And that was a Donald Trump show of force against Welker and the media. But that's not true. This is literally the way he is with everyone. The people around him, his aides, friends, family, Vance Rubio, Susie Wiles. Everybody faces this, that he won't stop talking, that you can't disagree with him, that there really is Is no debate. It's all insistence. What you saw in that interview is what everyone around him sees all of the time or knows that they will see if they in any way try to challenge him, even try to interrupt him. This is it. This is what the White House deals with. I am Donald Trump. I am right. What I say is. And if you say it isn't, then you're my enemy and a threat and an agent of the other side.

[Joanna]

Right. So how does that leave us with the war? Because he can tell us until he's blue in the face that he's winning, that we've won, that Iran has been obliterated, that, you know, whatever, all these hyperbolic descriptions, and yet we know it's not true.

[Michael]

Yes. Well, the dangerous thing here, and the anomalous thing is it may not be clear that he knows it isn't true. I mean, he is. What I say goes, what I want is right. This is real in his mind. It isn't that he recognizes something has gone wrong, he's miscalculated, He has to double back on his tracks. He has to fix something. All of that natural thing, that's what goes on in life and it certainly goes on in politics, is not what goes through his head. And in fact. So back to that other thing. Why is he doing that? Why is he putting the UFC on the White House lawn when that is obviously a mistake of just the political perception that you would not want? But he can't see that. He can't. I mean, I think actually he may well be incapable of recognizing that anything that he does might be an error, might be a mistake, might have to be fixed.

[Joanna]

So when he had his spate of companies going bankrupt, did he know that there never.

[Michael]

Not in the least, actually. Then every one of those failures became, in his mind, an opportunity, an opportunity for himself. And that's the way he would look at these things. Okay, bankruptcy. So what can we get out of that? Okay, those people will be screwed, but what can we get?

[Joanna]

And then, of course, along comes Mark Burnett and recreates him as America's favorite businessman.

[Michael]

Well, it's just. It is all. And remember in that, I mean, that's a lie. He's not a successful businessman at that point. But it's not. There's a level, you might say this guy is the most cynical person on earth. But the other side of that is that he's not cynical. He actually believes it. I mean, he so occupies the role he takes on that he doesn't. There is no personal Questioning. So he takes on the role of, I am the warrior, I represent the greatest military power in the history of the world, and of course I am going to win. Of course we are going to win. And when we don't win, it's never, well, that's wrong. I really misplayed that. It's that he actually then continues to think, yes, we have won.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael]

I mean, it is a big. The reality gap here is profound and to say the least, alarming and widening.

[Joanna]

I would say it's widening as he gets involved in wars.

[Michael]

But I go back to that other thing which I find completely fascinating, that this becomes the centerpiece of Trump politics, this tension between everything I do is right and the obvious politics that what he does is wrong.

[Joanna]

So maybe he really is remaking politics with his force of personality.

[Michael]

No, I would say the opposite. I would think it is. He is anomalous. No one is like this. This is just the weirdest thing that has ever happened in our politics or any politics. A person who cannot fathom that, that cannot fathom that there actually is a politics here. Instead, he just sees himself. It's only he who exists.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael]

And the people who stand, you should see the people who stand around him in the White House. I swear to God, they stand there and they are all slack jawed. They just don't know how to react to this except to back off. And I've seen this many times, the kind of backing away.

[Joanna]

Well, the backing away or the sucking up? I mean, the sucking up, we've never seen anything quite like it. And I wanted to play clip of Todd Blanche when asked how he feels about being nominated as the Attorney General

[Michael]

as to whether or not I want this job. I did not ask for this job. I love working for President Trump. It's the greatest honor of a lifetime. And if President Trump chooses to keep me as acting, that's an honor. If he chooses to nominate me, that's an honor. If he chooses to nominate somebody else and I go back to being the dagger, that's an honor. If he chooses to nominate somebody else and asks me to go do something else, I will say, thank you very much. I love you, sir.

[Joanna]

What was that? What was that? Todd Blanche, could you have gotten much lower?

[Michael]

I love you, sir.

[Joanna]

I love you. I mean, everything's an honor. Everything's an honor. What is he talking about?

[Michael]

Well, Todd Blanche is. That is an interesting example of very. And this is. And I think he is cynical in this or calculated. I can do this. This is the opportunity. I will Never get an opportunity like this before I have been plucked from obscurity and I will be the Attorney General of the United States of America. How am I going to do this? I'm going to do this by the management of, of Donald Trump. And remember, he has spent an enormous amount of time figuring the same thing. I can do this. It is all about one thing. Not my competence, not my accomplishments, not my ideology, not my policies. None of this. It's about my ability to manage Donald Trump.

[Joanna]

But nobody can manage Donald Trump. I would. I was talking to Preet Bihara last week and he, and I was asking him, him what he thought about what had happened to Todd Blanche, and he said, does no one remember Jeff Sessions? Which of course was his point that Jeff Sessions, Trump's first Attorney General, who then had to promptly recuse himself over the Russian investigation. But when he left Trump's employ, he couldn't get a job in private industry. He'd lost his Senate seat in Alabama. You know, Wither. Wither Jeff Sessions.

[Michael]

Absolutely true. But that's not the way people think. Actually, people think, A, I can do it, B, there's an opening, and C, they actually look at this and say, yes, some people know how to do this. And in fact, Boris Epstein is a good example. I mean, Boris is and has gone through ups and downs with, with Donald Trump, but net is far and away in a better position than he was when he began. Now, what this ultimately means we don't know, but what it means now is that Todd Blanche may become the Attorney General of the United States. And the way he's going to look at that is, whatever happens, if I accomplish that, I am far ahead. Of when I was a peripheral partner at Cadwalladegger, Wickersham and Taft, I believe is the law firm.

[Joanna]

Well, I wonder if that's true. Certainly he's better known, but I wonder, just going back to the example of Jeff Sessions, if that in the end is good for him. So many people have just had their careers slimed by Donald Trump. I just, I can't imagine that working for him is good for anybody, apart from maybe you leave the White House and you join a board, or which you might have done anyway.

[Michael]

But remember, Jeff Sessions was under the impression that he actually was the Attorney General and he actually was an independent political entity. He had been a United States Senator. Of course, Todd Blanche has the virtue of not believing any of that, of understanding. And remember, the first administration, this was not clear to people, but now it is absolutely clear that they have one job A singular job and that is the management of Donald Trump.

[Joanna]

Some follow the noise, Bloomberg follows the money. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money

[Michael]

side to every story.

[Joanna]

Get the money side of the story. Subscribe [e-mail] so what, what does, what happens to Todd Blanche eventually? I mean, he's got a sort of traditional, I guess, sort of knitting patterns, good looks. He could have a Fox show when this all ends because it will end.

[Michael]

Yeah, I don't. What happened? Well, I think it depends how this ends and it's not clear that it does end. I mean it actually could end in a tragedy for democracy and so Todd Blanche would be employed for years to come. But it also may well end in the Donald Trump show, leaves Washington, goes back to Mar A Lago. He assumes he reverts to that job being being the king in Mar a Lago or the once and future president of Mar A Lago. People gather, his people gather around him. There's a lot of money, a lot of grift that's flowing through this, this presidency in exile and Todd Blanche reaps millions and millions and millions of dollars.

[Joanna]

And perhaps he gets a free membership of Mar A Lago, though in fact he won't, of course Trump will charge him for the membership of Mar A Lago. Interesting excerpt from J.D. vance's book where he talks about how they decided to have a fourth child. This spoke to me because actually I wish I'd had four children. I have two sons and I would quite like to have had more.

[Michael]

I have five children. I recommend it.

[Joanna]

I know. Well, it's easier for men. And you've had two wives. Ushavants had told JD she was.

[Michael]

You're so competitive.

[Joanna]

Well, I would quite like a wife.

[Michael]

You could have gotten another husband.

[Joanna]

Yeah, could I? Though I'm not sure I could, to be honest. Well, whatever. I would like to have had four children. So I'm with JD on this. But Usha said that she was well and truly done after three. But then it turned out, according to JD's new book Communion, that and they were so moved by Erica Kirk when they were flying back with her after Charlie Kirk, the founder of Turning Point usa, was assassinated in Utah. Vanceys accompanied her with Charlie's body back to Arizona where the couple, the Kirks, lived. And apparently one of the things that Erica Kirk sobbed to ushavants was that she wished she'd have more children with Charlie. She'd only had two. The kids are Little. And that's what inspired ushavants to have another child.

[Michael]

I have no comment on that.

[Joanna]

But that's unlike you. Normally you have comments on everything.

[Michael]

Well, this is just these campaign books, these books that politicians write, which I believe there is not one honest word in them. But I think one of the interesting things is to look at, at that book as the first step or one of the first steps in these people, in these guys around Trump trying to position them for what comes next. So that book has nothing to do with the Vance family life and it has all to do with the next chapter, how he positions himself. And there's an interesting piece of positioning that I, that I think I've detected this week, which is there was a, so a race in, in Iowa, the governor's race in a primary in which a, in which Trump has supported someone. I think his name is Randy Feenstra. Is that right? I think it is, yeah, that's right.

[Joanna]

I think that's right.

[Michael]

Against the candidate by the name of Zach lan. And the, the Trump's candidate didn't win. The other candidate won. Why did he win? Well, he seems to have won because he's a, you know, a health candidate, a diet candidate, an RFK junior candidate. In other words, he's the winner in the Iowa Republican primary over the Trump backed candidate. And the Trump backed candidate is just a very traditional conservative and had relatively straightforward and you might say actually relatively reasonable views on medicine and health or at least traditional views. Whereas Zaklon is a Maha representative out there. That was almost the entirety of his campaign. And curiously in Iowa against a big agriculture, you know, and contrary to the agribusiness which has been for so long been a mainstay of Iowa politics.

[Joanna]

That is interesting. And where do we think RFK Jr is? Not only on this candidate?

[Michael]

Well, you know, I think that there was, I mean he's been very positive on this candidate. So interesting positive on a candidate that was opposed by, by Donald Trump. And then there was a really, I think insightful piece in the Washington Post which pointed out that RFK Jr. Is really is hardly directing this massive department, that he's the Secretary of Health and Human Services and, and barely making a dent in the traditional bureaucratic functions of that department and entirely focused on his health Maha message. So the proposition here may well be that Maha, that that message is a powerful platform, not maga. It is Maha. And I mean I find it difficult to believe that, that there is that kind of constituency. But I could well be wrong. I mean, and More importantly, I think that's the RFK thesis. I am going to get beyond Donald Trump, escape Donald Trump, defy Donald Trump, even on the basis of this platform.

[Joanna]

Well, that's fascinating. And the Times, the New York Times had a piece saying that RFK Jr is, as you say, still Jr at 72, is really nowhere to be seen in the department. And it's certainly true that.

[Michael]

So I may have been wrong. It's the Times piece rather than the Washington Post piece that said this.

[Joanna]

Okay. Well, either way, he seems to be missing from the department. And certainly Dr. Mehmet Oz seems to be a much more, I guess, ubiquitous face of the Department of Health and Human Services. You see him at the press conferences around how things. Obviously, he's done things with RFK Jr still Jr at 72. They promoted a hiking video and they wanted us all to go outside and stride around Yellowstone, which I, I would very much like to be doing right now. But it's definitely true that he's not on the front burner anymore. And I don't know if he's fallen out with Trump or as you say, he's thinking about how do I use this department not to help American public health, but to create a platform for myself to run for 2028.

[Michael]

Yeah. And of course, he has been, I mean, there has been somewhat of a, if not a falling out, a sidelining. You know, the anti vax position the White House has determined is not a popular one. So that's an instance of Trump who had aligned himself with that position, but I always thought uncomfortably aligned himself and has now gratefully backed off of this. And RFK Jr. Has gotten the memo that he's supposed to shut up about that.

[Joanna]

Right. Well, you have long predicted that either he or Kash Patel will be the next cabinet ministers to fool. Just reminding people that we've lost four women cabinet ministers and we haven't lost a single man yet.

[Michael]

Well, eventually we have to because there will be no women left.

[Joanna]

That's true. Do you want to talk. This is your opportunity. That was an opening to talk about the deep state cabal.

[Michael]

You mean the deep state that Kash Patel has been investigating and put the DOJ to work on.

[Joanna]

Yes.

[Michael]

And that's an interesting thing that Kash Patel, who's the FBI director, the FBI is a division of the. Of the doj, has stepped forward to actually apparently direct the DOJ in the prosecution or the possible prosecutions of what are basically Trump enemies or aspects of the justice system and people who have contributed to prosecuting or pursuing or investigating Donald Trump. What a bunch.

[Joanna]

What a bunch. Do you think that Kash Patel actually lasts a bit longer because of this?

[Michael]

Probably, yes, I think that's a good point. I mean, Kash Patel obviously understands, as Todd Blanche has understand, as Boris Epstein understands, as the really true what syncophants, sycophants understand, that it is all about the management of Donald Trump. How do you give Donald Trump what he wants?

[Joanna]

Wow. Well, there was good news that a judge struck down. Do you remember the Trump administration decided that they were going to charge people $100,000 for the H1B visa. Lots of people in Silicon Valley come over on an H1B. I have a feeling. I came over originally on an H1B, but it allows guests from other countries or workers from other countries who've got some kind of expertise to come in and work in American companies. And there was absolute panic in Silicon Valley at the idea of having to pay $100,000 for all the people they bring in from India, China, everybody, all the kind of tech extra staff that they need to bring in because they often can't find enough people here. But that's been knocked back by a judge, Judge Sorockian, Obama appointed judge in Massachusetts, I think. So companies can exhale on their costs of bringing in international staff.

[Michael]

For the moment. They'll be back. I mean, this is a Stephen Miller thing. I mean, they are there. That is a. You know, there's a passionate opposition to

[Joanna]

H1B visas, which I think David Sacks, when he was head of AI at the White House, he since left, spent a lot of time apparently whispering into Trump's ears.

[Michael]

No, the technology community obviously, obviously wants this, but the anti immigrant constituency within the White House, completely opposed to them, would gladly get rid of the entire exception, the entire program.

[Joanna]

Right. But for the Silicon Valley founders, giving him the money for the ballroom or for whatever scam he's got going on is a cheap way to try and influence visa allocation and cheap visa allocation.

[Michael]

Right, but the counter to this then will be within the administration. I mean, setting a dollar figure on this, then that was meant not only to make money off of this, but to put a cap on these visas. So the Stephen Miller I can guarantee is then going back to the drawing board and say we have to get. Well, if we can't put a cap, then we have to get rid of the visas entirely.

[Joanna]

Okay, well, we should watch that space because it's a hugely important one for companies trying to bring in external talent, as they are referred to. So do we want a quick drive by on what's happening in California? Still no result on who's second in the gubernatorial race there? Partly because. Well, entirely because California takes what seems like weeks to count their votes.

[Michael]

No. And Trump has been, you know, this then plays nicely into Trump's hands. It's a fraud. It's obviously a fraud. Why is it a fraud? Because it takes so long. So the fact that it takes so long is because it takes so long, but then that becomes evidence of a fraud, which becomes part of the broader narrative, which he will expand as we go into the midterms. But I'd like to use this as an opportunity. I have a book recommendation which.

[Joanna]

Oh, good.

[Michael]

A book that comes out today, just published today, in fact, I have it here. Can I hold this?

[Joanna]

You can hold it up. I'm sure the author is going to be thrilled.

[Michael]

It's called City on the Edge, and it is about California politics, specifically San Francisco politics, and. And the tech industry. I mean, it's a fantastic story over the last, basically trading. Chronicling 30 years of the rise of tech power and then the rise of Democratic power in San Francisco, which we are going to. This is timely because Newsom, who was leaving the governor's office, he's term limited, and who is clearly being set to run for president, as is Kamala Harris, once again running for president. So these two forces, tech forces, the tech money and the Democratic. The rise of these Democratic powerhouses will be a story into, you know, as we. A main story as we approach 2028. But this book, City on the Edge by Jonathan Weber, and I should point out that I've already blurbed this book, but it is fantastic.

[Joanna]

Good. Okay. Well, I will look forward to reading that. I'm going to make a book recommendation next week myself. Good. And I should point out I made a mistake in Saturday's podcast, which we corrected right at the end. But for those of you who didn't get to the end, a lot of you wrote in to point out that Xavier Becerra, or Javier Becerra, will not be California's first Latino governor if he gets elected, which very much looks like he's the front runner at this point. Actually, that honor went to Romaldo Pacheco. I think that's how you pronounce it. I'm not very good on Spanish pronunciations. Who was actually the first Latino governor 150 years ago.

[Michael]

And do you want to acknowledge my skepticism of. Of your emphatic insistence that he would

[Joanna]

be, in my defense, a couple of people also said they fell for the misinformation out there. There are a lot of stories out there saying he is the first. But I should have checked and anyway, you just should have checked with me. I should have checked with you and I didn't. You know, when we get things wrong, what's really interesting is the audience let us know immediately. And there's so many people out there who are so on the ball, A, about what we're saying, but B, just know an enormous amount about politics. I think I told you that YouTube told us that our audience, or told me that our audience was one of the most engaged and articulate audiences out there, which they judge by the comments, which is nice. So, okay, we've had a book recommendation, City on the Edge. We have some limericks. I'm not terribly good at collecting them, sometimes I miss them. But we've actually got some very good ones here. This one is from Paul Watson. 8809 Donald's USA 250 is looking increasingly shifty. No one wants to sing in a UFC ring or bow before President Grifty. I thought that was very good.

[Michael]

Great. Fantastic.

[Joanna]

Isn't that a good one, President Grifty? Yes, President Grifty. I thought that was very good. Now this is from Damian Spencer. There's an insomniac worm in Trump's head. Is it alive or is it dead? With Jojo taking the floor and Wolfie at the door, will they ever put this disaster to bed? Then we've got one called the Orange Moon from Richard Frechen, which I rather enjoyed this one. There was once an orange faced baboon who thought he could purchase the moon put a consistent casino up there, way up in the air and be the first one to bankrupt the moon. The idea of bankrupting the moon I thought was fantastic. Garfried, you've got a bit of competition. Of course, we do have one from Garfried and I would be negligent if I didn't read it out. There once was a don with a yen to blunder through Hormuz again. Rhodes said that's a reference to Ben Rhodes, who we had on the Daily Beast podcast last week. Rhodes said deals aren't made with a golf cart brigade. You need brains, not a billionaire pen. And talking about pens, I was thinking we should get a pen for Inside Trump's head with a Trump head and what I've got here. I was inspired because I was given a novelty pen for the Nick, Dick and Paul show, which is a rather good podcast about tech and about finance and about new ideas. And of course, one of the hosts was Nick Bilton. And if I tip this up, I don't know if you can see it, it's got the three heads of the hosts. But of course, Nick Bilton has, I think, had to give up his podcast because he's now trying to tame 60 Minutes. Anyway, it made me think that we should get a novelty pen with your head and my head floating around in it. What do you think?

[Michael]

Yeah, I'll.

[Joanna]

All right. Well, if you have been, thank you for listening to us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. Big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many Bee Beast tier members now there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support.