The Daily Beast Podcast

Episode: How Desperate Trump Could Kill Democracy: Toobin
Host: Joanna Coles
Guest: Jeffrey Toobin
Date: January 15, 2026

Episode Overview

In this urgent and candid episode, Joanna Coles sits down with renowned legal scholar and Supreme Court author Jeffrey Toobin to unpack the tumultuous current state of American democracy. Against the backdrop of unprecedented DOJ resignations, aggressive politicization under Donald Trump’s second term, and a Supreme Court poised to deliver pivotal rulings on birthright citizenship and presidential power, the conversation dives deep into the heart of institutional erosion and what that means for the country’s future. Toobin offers incisive analysis, historical context, and personal anecdotes from inside the justice system—painting a picture equal parts sobering and vital.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Unprecedented DOJ Resignations and Politicization

• Resignation Wave:
  • Multiple federal prosecutors recently resigned in Minneapolis, protesting DOJ investigations into shooting victims' families.
  • Previous notable resignations occurred after charges were dropped in the Eric Adams deal in New York.
• Toobin on Significance:
  • “It is not that it’s never happened before, but before this Trump presidency and even the last Trump presidency, you never saw this kind of protest.” (03:47)
  • DOJ jobs were historically apolitical; what’s happening is “extraordinary.”
• Pam Bondi’s DOJ:
  • Led by Trump’s former personal lawyer, Bondi, and her deputy Todd Blanche, the department saw mass exodus, especially in the Civil Rights Division (“now exists to support the rights of white people…defend against what they think of as reverse discrimination”). (08:40)
  • Political enemies prosecuted (e.g., James Comey, Tish James), often incompetently.

2. Resignation Ethics and Internal Resistance

• Is it better to stay or resign in protest?
  • “All you can do as a federal government employee is vote with your feet, and that’s what these people have done. But it certainly makes a big statement to resign in protest…” (06:58)
  • Resigning may allow more compliant individuals to occupy pivotal roles.
• Incentives to Do the President’s Bidding:
  • Toobin references a department official who received a lifetime judgeship after cutting deals favorable to Trump.

3. The Supreme Court’s Current & Future Role

• Supreme Court as “Handmaiden”:
  • “The Supreme Court has been… very much a handmaiden to President Trump… allow[ing] the president to do what he wanted on issues like immigration, budget…” (17:06)
  • Landmark decision (Trump v United States, 2024): “Donald Trump and any president is essentially immune from criminal prosecution ever.” (17:42)
• Pending Rulings:
  • Tariffs and birthright citizenship—Toobin expects these may challenge Trump more, but ultimate outcomes are unclear.
• Court’s Political Awareness:
  • “They obviously understand that the political stakes of the decisions that they make… but they are acutely aware of the political stakes of what they’re doing.” (18:51)

4. Supreme Court Personalities — Rapid Fire Analysis

Joanna runs through each justice; Toobin provides context and perspective.
Notable summaries:

• John Roberts:
  • “He was and is a conservative… [he] believes in a powerful executive.” (20:04)
• Clarence Thomas:
  • “He has been vindicated by the Republican appointees… anti-abortion, constitutional right to bear arms—Thomas causes are now law.” (22:35)
  • On scandals: “I think a much more serious issue is the fact that he’s been given all these gifts worth hundreds of thousands of dollars from people, right wing billionaires with business before the Court.” (23:53)
• Samuel Alito:
  • “There is a tremendous anger in Justice Alito… He seems at this point very much to embody a sort of Fox News approach to his work.” (25:49)
• Sotomayor, Kagan, Jackson:
  • “In important cases, have been in the minority almost their whole career…” (32:39)
• Gorsuch:
  • “More conservative even than Kavanaugh… he is with Thomas and Alito on the far right end of the court.” (34:43)
• Amy Coney Barrett:
  • “Her vote does seem to be in play in more cases than some of us expected…but she does not align herself fully with the far right.” (35:41)
• Supreme Court Culture:
  • “Not an especially collegial place…The days of close friendships among justices have really passed.” (29:10)

5. Institutional Destruction and Prospects of Rebuilding

• How Long to Rebuild?
  • “You can’t do it overnight. It will be a complicated process and not an easy process… But it’s going to take a long time.” (12:32)
  • “There is no guarantee that a Democrat is going to win in 2028, which means you could have, you know, President J.D. extending what we’re seeing now.” (13:37)

6. Congressional Powerlessness & Who Is Standing Up

• Minority Democrats Can Do Little:
  • “No one with any power is standing up.” (15:22)

7. Supreme Court’s Immunity from Accountability

• No Ethics Code:
  • “There is nothing binding that’s imposed on them.” (25:04)
• Structural Changes:
  • Congress can alter the Supreme Court’s size by statute, but it’s politically unlikely; term/age limits would require a constitutional amendment. (62:11)
  • “That’s the worry about…changing the makeup of the Supreme Court, is that once you change it, once it becomes something easier to change.” (64:38)

8. Will Trump Defy the Supreme Court?

• Historical Reminder & Current Limits:
  • “The Supreme Court in our country doesn’t have any individual enforcement powers. They don’t have an army. They don’t have a police force…So they rely on the understanding in the other branches of government that the Supreme Court has the last word.” (57:14)
  • Unlikely direct defiance, more likely legal maneuvers: “I understand the Supreme Court has said these tariffs are unconstitutional, but I’m going to make some changes…force litigation on those sets of tariffs.” (58:30)

9. Birthright Citizenship & Tariffs—Upcoming Cases

• Birthright Citizenship:
  • “One of the least complicated cases you can imagine… the words of the 14th Amendment are just simple enough. Born means born, right?” (48:41)
• Tariffs:
  • Potential for chaos if the Court retroactively invalidates them; Court may limit effects prospectively to avoid administrative turmoil. (47:14)

10. Epstein Files/Clinton Subpoenas

• Subpoena Standoff:
  • The Clintons are likely to stall for time, knowing Democrats may retake the House and quash the subpoena:
    • “It is not hard to drag out a legal issue for nine months. That’s child’s play for lawyers in our system.” (53:07)

11. Independence of Agencies/Presidential Power

• Firing Heads of Independent Agencies:
  • “Trump wins for sure…This is a crusade [Roberts] has been on that is sometimes called the unitary executive theory.” (59:30)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “This is just not something that happens very often. I take this issue pretty personally because...these jobs were seen as almost entirely apolitical…the shift…is extraordinary.” — Jeffrey Toobin, (06:58)
• “You have a Democratic minority that has no power at the moment… no one with any power is standing up.” — Jeffrey Toobin, (15:22)
• “They have the last word. To an unusual degree among democracies…the power of the United States Supreme Court to declare laws unconstitutional without any possibility of review is greater than any other democracy.” — Jeffrey Toobin, (45:02)
• “What are you going to do about it? And the answer is, nothing.” — Jeffrey Toobin on the Court’s power (46:17)
• “I don’t think it feels very old. I think it is very old. 93 is not the new anything, as far as I’m concerned.” — Jeffrey Toobin on aged judges (65:39)
• “I’m not going to pretend things are anything other than bad, but… we’re going to have an election in 2026…and then we’ll have an election in 2028.” — Toobin’s reluctant “good news” (60:47)

Timestamps of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |:---:|:---| | 02:24 | Toobin on Trump’s strategies to circumvent Supreme Court rulings | | 03:47 | DOJ resignations and their significance | | 08:40 | The politicization and transformation of the DOJ under Bondi | | 12:14 | Prospects for long-term institutional recovery and the “project 2029” idea | | 15:22 | Lack of power among those trying to “stand up” inside/outside government | | 17:06 | Supreme Court enabling Trump, landmark “immunity” decision | | 18:51 | Justices' awareness of political stakes in their rulings | | 20:04+ | “One sentence” character sketches of current Supreme Court justices | | 32:39 | Liberal justices viewed as destined for opposition/minority status | | 40:23 | What’s the point of the liberal justices' presence on the Court? | | 42:25 | Will Thomas or Alito retire soon and shift the court even further? | | 44:55 | Can the Supreme Court “lose the people”? Ultimate court authority | | 57:14 | Enforcement limits of Supreme Court, likelihood of Trump’s subtle defiance | | 59:30 | Supreme Court likely to side with Trump on firing independent agency heads | | 62:11 | How changes to the Court’s size/structure could theoretically happen |

Closing Thoughts

Coles and Toobin conclude on a somber but pragmatic note: while legal and institutional norms are being battered, elections loom and ultimately hold the key to reversing or entrenching current trends. The prospect of further Supreme Court vacancies heightens the stakes profoundly, and the system's ultimate check—popular will—remains, at least for now, intact.

For legal and political watchers, this episode is a comprehensive, unvarnished look inside the institutional hurricane currently facing American democracy, as seen by two deeply plugged-in insiders.