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- [00:00]
Maura Healey
I think that what we have to anticipate is not only will we see ice, we'll see every federal agency set out around ballot polling places to scare people away. I think it's important that we talk about what is actually being attempted right now by the Trump administration and that we have in place what we need to have in place to protect people's rights. I have confidence in state and local officials to do just that. But I don't think we should underestimate the links that the president and the administration will go to come November.
- [00:40]
Joanna Coles
I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. And we have a terrific conversation for you today with the governor of Massachusetts, where the civil war for the Democratic Party is playing out between progressives and, I guess, the more moderate wing of the party. And Governor Healy has all sorts of things to say about Donald Trump, about Keystone Kash Patel, about her former AG colleague Pam Bondi, about Larry Summers, who resigned from Harvard as we were having our conversation, and about the security and the safety of the elections. Oh, and did I mention we got into RFK Jr too, and the safety and security of families who want to have vaccinations. No time to waste. Let's get into it. Governor Healey, thank you for joining us. And I know you're on storm patrol. We were due to do this in person. And then, of course, you got stranded organizing storm patrol. There was a bit of a storm last night at the State of the Union. In many ways. I wanted to get your quick impressions of it.
- [01:50]
Maura Healey
You know, honestly, it's what I expected. The president didn't talk about real solutions, real ideas with any opportunity for realization, anything that was going to be actually operationalized. He's terrific at theater and invoking military heroes, the flag, sort of using other people in the audience. Well, to get applause, trying to get applause for himself. I mean, it's a show, it's theatrics, it's what Donald Trump does. But right now, what this country needs is real solutions, real ideas, real affordability ideas, real affordability solutions rather than the gimmicks that we see from him time and time again. So it's. It was very empty. And frankly, I think in terms of a conversation with the American people about what needs to be done, how to deliver for people and where this country needs to go. There was no articulation of that. And of course, because it's Donald Trump, I don't know what percentage, but a good percentage of it is just total fabrication. It does not reflect. It's Completely detached from the reality that Americans are living. I mean, people can't afford rent, they can't afford housing, they can't afford to pay their bills. They're struggling with health care costs. They're just worried about their kids and their kids future. And that's the reality. And it seems that everything he does and that his administration does, whether it's tariffs or taking away health care or driving away foreign investment and people from this country, I mean, he's making America less competitive. He's lessening our standing in the world, and he's not leading. You know, Joanna's governor. I spend a lot of time investing in the things that I think are gonna make success for my residents, for my state. That's what a president should be doing. And of course, that's not what we see from Donald Trump.
- [04:01]
Joanna Coles
Well, we definitely saw a show. Did you feel the Democrats used the opportunity as well as they might have
- [04:08]
Maura Healey
done in the chamber or in the reception?
- [04:11]
Joanna Coles
In the chamber, assuming that people are watching it.
- [04:15]
Maura Healey
You know, it's one speech. And I think that what you saw is people in the chamber who were registering the fact that they haven't turned over the Epstein files. I thought that that was important. I mean, for all of his talk and the awarding of Congressional medals and presidential medals and calling out of Olympians and you name it, right? I mean, like, that was artfully done in a way to deflect any attention from the moment, which is the terrible economic circumstance of the vast majority of Americans. And then the games they're playing with the Epstein files and really the corruption of the Department of Justice and the fact that so many of our institutions that we count onto work are not working, are not delivering for the American people.
- [05:02]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so. So let's stay on that because we're recording this on Wednesday lunchtime. And this morning the news came out that Larry Summers, obviously a former head of Harvard, your old alma mater, and bang, in the middle of your state of Massachusetts, is resigning from Harvard. We know that Joey Ito, the head of Media Lab at mit, also stepped down over his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. You're a former Attorney General. How is it possible that these two brilliant men got caught up with Jeffrey Epstein? And how do you think the DOJ is handling it at the moment? Run by a former Attorney General of Florida, Pam Bondi.
- [05:48]
Maura Healey
Yeah, Joanne, I come to this not only as a former Attorney General, but as a former prosecutor. I prosecuted human trafficking cases. I've spent so much time with victims and survivors of sexual abuse and assault. And it is unbelievably sickening to me to see a former colleague, Pam Bodny, who I served with, turn a blind eye, literally turn away from survivors a couple weeks ago at her hearing. It is disgraceful how the Department of Justice has conducted itself. There should be full transparency, by the way. This isn't rocket science for anybody who has worked in investigations in cases. There's a way to produce information, there's a way to go through files, there's a way to redact. And this is not just incompetence. This is calculated to continue to slow walk the production of information, which week by week we show is taking down any number of powerful people around the world. Right. So, you know, that's what this is about. I think it's a very important issue. And, you know, I just credit. There is more courage in these survivors than I see from people in the federal government who have the. I mean, I credit the Republicans in Congress who've come forward and been part of the demand for accountability. That's important. We should all be behind supporting transparency and justice for these victims of horrific crimes. And, you know, obviously those who are in the final, in the files, as it comes to light, they need to be held accountable as well. Doesn't matter what party they're in. This is really bad behavior, really bad conduct. It is criminal in some instances. We know already, we don't know the who, what and where of every individual named in the files. But what was done, what Epstein did, enabled by Ghislaine and others. Right. I mean, this is the perpetration of one of the worst abuses that I have seen happen in the world. And I was around for the Catholic Church clergy sex abuse scandal and, you know, investigated that as well. And I mean this, to me, this, you know, this is on that scale or surpasses it. It's because every day that goes by, you see continued cover up by our federal government and the Trump administration.
- [08:23]
Joanna Coles
So you mentioned that Pam Bundy was a colleague of yours when you were both AGs together. Are you surprised by her sort of transformation of the doj? Did you think that she might have more backbone?
- [08:38]
Maura Healey
You know, I'm very, very sickened by it and disheartened by it. I mean, you know, these are serious jobs. And, you know, the reality is across that administration, it's just staffed with people who are unserious, they're unserious, they are incompetent, or they're all about. I guess in the first instance, the first quality is absolute fealty and loyalty. To the president, you know, and that is not in service of this country. That is not in furtherance of the oath that they all swore to uphold, you know, so, you know, meanwhile, you know, I think about the leadership that is happening, and thank God we have governors in states. Thank God. I thought that Governor Spanwicker did a great job last night focusing the attention on, is your life better under Donald Trump? Is he working for you? You know, every day I'm out there, I make any number of decisions as governor. And people can take issue with that. People can disagree with that. I get it. And I'm not always gonna get it right. But I can tell you what, people can walk away understanding that I am trying my damnedest working my butt off for them. That's what people deserve of their leaders, you know, and that's not what we see from this government. And I think that that's something that Governor Spamberger and shout out to women governors, women Democratic governors. And in the election of her Mikey Sherrill, you know, that's what the focus needs to be on for the sake of this country.
- [10:01]
Joanna Coles
So you mention unserious people. Another person that's come under the spotlight that I imagine you have strong opinions on is a man that we nicknamed the Daily Beast. And it's now stuck. His nickname, Keystone Cash Patel, head of the FBI, seen quaffing beer and shouting with the American hockey team on Sunday and promising Donald Trump that he was going to deliver them to the State of of the Union address. And he delivered most of them. Five of them stayed at home. What do you think of Keystone Cash doing that? Why did he need to be in Italy for that?
- [10:38]
Maura Healey
He didn't. He didn't. Again, it's a joke. These are folks who don't understand their job. They don't understand the mission, nor if they even understood are they capable of fulfilling it, because they're on a different mission, which is to do whatever Donald Trump wants and make as much money on their own through all sorts of ways that we'll maybe come to know about later. There's no reason for him to be there. He's head of the FBI. How many things can he and should he be investigating and overseeing right now in this country? No reason for him to be in Milan. You know, I'm a hockey fan. I'm a huge sports fan. I love our Olympians. We had a lot of folks out of Massachusetts competing. So, you know, great to be a cheerleader. You can do that from where you are. And he has a job to do the other thing that is just so infuriating to me at a time when. When Americans can't afford healthcare, they can't afford food, they can't afford rent, they can't afford housing. He is flying on our dime, the taxpayer dime, and it's not the first trip that he's taken. Right. So so many things problematic with that. But again, this is an administration that really is about the grift and the graft, the corruption. They're certainly not about doing their job. They'll make up ways to try to indict people. They've attacked political leaders. They launch really specious investigations, you know, under the auspices of fraud. They don't wanna work with us as state leaders, as partners. You know, it's an entirely different agenda.
- [12:09]
Joanna Coles
When you say they don't want to work with you, how does that sort of manifest itself in actually trying to run a state?
- [12:15]
Maura Healey
Yeah, well, it seems to me the relationship has been, and I'm speaking from the governor's office here in Massachusetts, and we've been at this for a good 250 years. I brag that Massachusetts is where this country began. Right. We gave birth to that back in 1775 on battlefields in Concord and Lexington. So we take great pride. I'm looking up at Sam Adams now, one of the authors of the Declaration of Independence. He hangs in my office right now, his portrait. And I just think about the role of government and the Constitution and the federal government is there to support and act as a partner with states. And what does this federal government do? Done. They've taken away funding for food for our kids, for assistance for health care. I mean, when they took away SNAP benefits, I had to come up with ways to make sure that people were fed. When they took people off of health care, which 300,000 people in Massachusetts two months ago were going to lose their health care because of one big, beautiful bill and what Donald Trump had done. And I had to come forward as a governor and find ways to make sure that coverage continued. They took away vaccines. Thank you, rfk. We had to. I asked my public health commissioner to basically set up his own CDC and write a prescription for a vaccine for everyone in Massachusetts. And I got insurers to cover it. They took away funding for science and research, which, I mean, you know, Massachusetts, 1 in 10 R&D jobs in this country are in Massachusetts. And these are jobs that power biotech and life sciences, also the defense industry. So where Donald Trump takes that funding away, I have to come forward and find ways to cover that and fund that. So that's what life is like right now, dealing with the Trump administration. And it seems to me we should be working in partnership. I would love to see a joint effort at investing in education and workforce development in true energy independence. Instead, what I get from the Trump administration is they're going to increase people's energy costs by trying to take solar and wind off the table. So these are the things that are going on. ICE is a good example, too. I mean, I've taken strong action to stand up to ICE in Massachusetts. Why? Because my job is to protect public safety, to protect public safety of my residents. And ICE no longer is operating as a legitimate law enforcement agency. They're engaging in things that are totally illegal, rogue agents. And the worst of it is that our people are put in harm's way as a result. And so I've had to issue orders banning ICE from churches and schools and healthcare centers, and they're not allowed on state property. They can't use state resources. Again, these are actions we're having to take as states because we don't have a partner in the federal government coming to say, hey, let's work with you on this.
- [15:12]
Joanna Coles
As a governor, do you have any sense when you're trying to deal with ice, of how many illegal immigrants there are in Massachusetts? Do you have data on illegal immigrants who are actually committing crimes?
- [15:24]
Maura Healey
Of course we do have the federal government. Has the ICE ever once come to us and said, hey, let's work with you. Let's go after. Let's help us again. I was a prosecutor, an attorney general. I used to investigate and prosecute and put people in jail for trafficking drugs and guns and human beings. And normally the way it worked is state and federal partners would work together. I used to work with HSI and FBI and ICE as ag, but that's not what this has been about. And the data that we have just from Massachusetts alone, and I think it probably reflects what we're seeing around the country. The vast, vast majority of people they have picked up have not committed crimes. Okay? They're mothers who are now being taken away from their kids, their kids who are being taken away from their families. I mean, we've had people as young as 14 and 15 years old picked up here in Massachusetts. The stories are heartbreaking, to say nothing of what we've seen with US Citizens being detained here and in other states. And obviously, the shootings and the horrific killings of Renee Good and Alex Preddy are, you know, example of just how off the rails this has gone. But I just want to be clear, as a matter of law enforcement and public safety, the way ICE acts, I mean, these guys are not trained, or at least the ones that we've seen out. And I think I saw recently that the majority of people actually in ICE are people who have been recently hired. Right, right.
- [16:55]
Joanna Coles
Although, interestingly, the two responsible for the deaths of Renee Goode and Alex Pretty, one of them had been there five years, one of them had been there 10 years.
- [17:04]
Maura Healey
Well, sure, but. And, you know, part of it is, what's the mission? You know, and now you have a pronouncement from the vice president and the administration saying there's absolute immunity for whatever they do. And, you know, they just haven't been. It's clear they're not trained. And then there are people there who maybe have been there a long time and had the training, but they've been put in a terrible, difficult situation by the president and the administration, and it's just not working. And if the president were serious, particularly with control of the executive branch in both houses, isn't this the time for immigration reform? We talk about this a lot as governors, and there's no leadership, what would you do?
- [17:50]
Joanna Coles
Because it's clear that the border and closing the border was a big issue, a bigger issue for the Democrats at the last election than I think Democrats realized. So how do you take what is an incredibly complicated conversation to have in America and reframe it to make it a vote winner for the Democrats? Leaving aside the horror of. Of masked men arresting women and children in the streets, what is the Democrats on the doorstep answer to how we handle illegal immigration?
- [18:24]
Maura Healey
Yeah, look, I don't think it's that complicated. And I speak as a Democrat who told President Biden years ago to close the border that there needed to be more controls in place. That didn't happen.
- [18:36]
Joanna Coles
And what did he respond when you said that, Governor? What did he say?
- [18:40]
Maura Healey
I don't know quite what the reasoning was. I think there was concern about litigation and certain groups bringing litigation. But my point to him was, look, we need to have safe and secure borders. There needs to be an orderly way for people to come into this country. Okay, I agree with that. What I also believe is important is that we have a way to deal with the hundreds of thousands of people, millions, who are here and have been living here, many brought as kids, who have been doing all things right, you know, in the proverbial sense, going to school, paying taxes, raising families, you know, growing businesses. What do we do? What do we do with them and what makes sense. We also, we know, have industries, and they're different in different parts of the state here. You know, in Massachusetts, we've got fishing industries. In other parts, there's farming industries. Construction, by the way, is somebody who needs to build housing desperately in the state and frankly, around the country to bring housing costs down. There's a real hurt to construction and housing construction as a result of these failed immigration tactics by the Trump administration, driving people, workers, literally taking them away. But we need safe and secure borders, and we also need a sensible way to deal with people who are here, who are not documented and need that path to citizenship.
- [20:04]
Joanna Coles
But what is the path to this? Isn't it?
- [20:07]
Maura Healey
I think that it was laid out before with the DACA program in terms of what people needed to do, creating that pathway, especially for our young people. To me, these are some of the most heartbreaking stories. When I see kids or who have managed to find a way to community college or to school or to work, and all of a sudden they're taken out and sent back to a country that they've never known. I mean, they left when they were two months old. Two years old. My point is this, Joanna. There's a way to do this. There's a way to get people together and come around some solutions that make sense, that provide a secure and safe border and also a path to citizenship for people who are already here, who are integral to our economy, who have become part of the fabric of our communities. What does not make sense is, is this mass deportation agenda that we see, which is the agenda of the Trump administration. I mean, that's the agenda around immigration right now. And I think it does a disservice to our economy, it does a disservice to families and our communities, and it does a disservice to who we are as Americans.
- [21:19]
Joanna Coles
Who we are as Americans. So let me ask you about another Massachusetts man you mentioned public safety. And I'm thinking of our Secretary of Health and Human services, Robert Kennedy Jr. And his attitude to vaccines. When you talk to people in Massachusetts, and I understand the Kennedys are a very prominent family there and a family that Massachusetts feels very proud of. What is their reaction to him and what he's doing with his plan to make America healthy again, it's horror.
- [21:53]
Maura Healey
I mean, they're horrified by it. I mean, this is why, as soon as he took away vaccines, I said, no, not on my watch. If you're in Massachusetts, we're gonna make sure that everybody has access to vaccines. Whether they're childhood immunizations or things for Covid or RSV or what have you, we're gonna make sure that's available. In the same way, when the Trump administration continued to find ways to take away access to abortion and mifepristone, I said, yeah, we're coming forward. I stockpiled mifepristone. I think I have probably the strongest shield law in the country to protect patients and providers of abortion when it comes to vaccines. It was clear to me we just have to create our own CDC and make sure that we're manufacturing and distributing these vaccines. People want to have access to vaccines. You know, there's a reason that Massachusetts is number one when it comes to healthcare and health outcomes. We have the second highest life expectancy in the country, have a real commitment to public health here. And so people were really negative on that and negative on so much of what he's done, particularly taken away healthcare from hundreds of millions of Americans. As I said at the end of the year and just a couple months ago, they were taken away essentially by allowing those subsidies to go away. Taking healthcare away from 300,000 households in Massachusetts, that's crazy. So I found some money to shore that up in the interim. But rfk, I thought the Kennedys are a special family here in Massachusetts. I was with young Joe Kennedy the other day at an energy event where we're supporting energy assistance and lowering energy costs for people. They've done great things. But I can tell you RFK is. Is over here. I thought New York was gonna claim him. He's not really a Massachusetts Kennedy.
- [23:51]
Joanna Coles
So Massachusetts is seen very much as a litmus test for the civil war that's basically going on in the Democratic party at the moment. You've got Elizabeth Warren on the progressive side. You've got Senator Ed Markey on the progressive side. Elizabeth Warren will be, I think, 78 this summer. Ed Markey will be 80 this summer. You've got in Seth Moulton a challeng to Ed Markey. What is the balance between experience and renewal of the party?
- [24:27]
Maura Healey
I think it's great to see so many talented people in our party. It's a big tent, you know, and we have people who are older and we have people who are younger. As I look out, you know, sure, there are Massachusetts races. There's a particular Senate primary. I gotta tell you, I'm not particularly focused on that because we've gotta do things to save our democracy, shore up affordability for Americans. I'm worried about how do I feed People, how do I build homes as quickly as possible to lower housing costs? How do I bring more energy in to the region to lower people's energy bills? And how do we make sure that in a country where the healthcare system seems to be broken, how do we in Massachusetts forge ahead with something that actually works for people? That's where my head is at. But I am struck by people talk a lot about 28, which I'm less interested in the punditry and who's gonna be their candidate and what's gonna happen, because we need our eyes on the ball and focused on 26. Focused on. There are 36 governor's races. There are a number of ag races, secretaries of state. We need to focus on free and fair elections, given what Trump has tried to do already with normalizing troops on the streets and taking ballot boxes already. Right. We need to do our work for 26. We need to take back the House and take back as much as the Senate as we can, and in doing so, continue to build on the momentum that we saw earlier this year with the elections of Sheryl and Spamberger and Mamdani, on what this party actually has to offer in contrast to what Donald Trump and the Republicans are not offering?
- [26:11]
Joanna Coles
Right. But isn't one of the reasons why the Republicans were so successful in 2024 that there is a sense of stagnancy in the Democratic Party? And there are a lot of people who have enormous amount of experience who've spent a lifetime in politics, and yet to your. All sorts of things aren't working. Health care is not working. Immigration's not working. So there's an argument that there is a need for generational change, isn't there? And you see that in Massachusetts in terms of you have two senators who are really up there in terms of age. You also see it in the neighboring Maine with Janet Mills, a fellow governor, running for the Senate. And if she wins, she'll enter the Senate at 78. And I guess my question for you is, what can these older senators do in their late 70s or 80s that they haven't been able to do already?
- [27:17]
Maura Healey
Well, Janet Mills, I mean, she was a killer ag. She's been a killer governor. She's done great things for her state, and she will as the next senator in Maine. People in Maine need that, you know.
- [27:30]
Joanna Coles
So can I just revisit now, though? She'll be 86 when she steps, if she just does one term. So, again, just asking you, what can you do at 86 or 84 that she couldn't have done as governor. And isn't there a point where. I know she's been a very capable governor, but isn't there a point where you do have to relinquish power?
- [27:54]
Maura Healey
I think it's for each individual to decide. Right. Really, we're talking about. Well, it's for each individual to make that decision. What I do think, and what I see, though, is I see tremendous talent in the Democratic Party. Okay. So I think you're talking specific to Congress and the House and the Senate in particular. By the way, we've got a lot of young House members here proud to work with Catherine Clark, who's the great whip. And, you know, there's a lot of talent and young talent, too, in the ranks within Congress and also within state legislatures that we've seen emerge and also certainly among state leaders, you know, if you're talking governors, AGs and the like. So, you know, to me, there's no question that the talent is there in the party, and it's great to see more people step forward and run, and, you know, that will sort itself out. I do think that it's important to have new energy and new ideas, certainly. Right. We want that for the health of our democracy. You know, we've got a president who's old. We had a president who was old. Right.
- [29:01]
Joanna Coles
And I was gonna say that the sort of that. I think there's an argument that a lot of Democratic voters are viewing older Democratic congresspeople or senators through the lens in which they saw Joe Biden that at one point didn't seem to matter, that he was old, and then it really mattered. And arguably it mattered catastrophically.
- [29:25]
Maura Healey
Yeah, I actually don't see that. I mean, I don't hear that or experience that at all. And I see, like, a lot of energy and vigor in the talent within the Democratic Party. I mean, you know, look at the governors that we have. Right. Look at the Democratic governors that we have. I know all of us feel older every day given the strain and the pressures that we're under. And we've all aged in our own way. But these are all folks in their 50s who are out there leading, delivering. We've got Democrats, and I see people younger in Congress and in state legislature. So I just think there's a great bench there. And I think you see people tapping into that. Look at the elections of Spamberger and Sheryl. Look at the mayor in New York. Look at the other people who've won in these recent seats. But I don't think it's you know, I understand that age versus youth sort of, you know, discussion, and certainly I think we're having that discussion because we had Joe Biden as president and because, you know, we now have Donald Trump in. And, you know that to me, what's important is we've got so many young and vigorous people out there. Also, do not throw out the benefit of experience. I want Janet Mills as senator in Maine. She knows what to do, she knows how to deliver, she knows how to get things done. And so, you know, I don't think it's all or nothing when it comes to that.
- [30:51]
Joanna Coles
What about your own state? Your endorsement as governor for Ed Markey will be very valuable. He'll be 80 going into the Senate. Do you feel comfortable endorsing someone who's in the position?
- [31:03]
Maura Healey
I haven't taken a position in the race. I haven't taken a position in the position, no.
- [31:06]
Joanna Coles
No. Well, that's why I'm asking you. Because he'll be 86 when he leaves the Senate.
- [31:11]
Maura Healey
You know, I'm gonna look, as I say, you know, I think, you know, in a Massachusetts primary, in a Massachusetts election, I think that, you know, we're fortunate we've got people who know how to lead and who know how to get things done. I'll take that into consideration. We'll deal with endorsements, support, you know, at some point. But right now I gotta say, I'm really focused on how do I build more homes, how do I lower people's energy costs, how do I fix healthcare and lower healthcare costs in this state. It's not to say races aren't important, but I'm interested in the competitive races. Places where we need to go red to blue and take back the House and take as many Senate seats as possible. Because clearly we need a Congress that is willing to do what this Republican controlled Congress has not done, which is to be the adult and to put guardrails on this president and his administration. Well, that's what we need.
- [32:07]
Joanna Coles
Right. And the loss of the House of Representatives and the loss of the Senate is what makes me ask you the questions about is it possible that the party needs a new generation? And how can you justify endorsing people who'll be 86 when they leave the Senate if they just do one more term for Janet Mills?
- [32:28]
Maura Healey
I see a lot of septuagenarians and octogenarians on the Republican side. Right.
- [32:34]
Joanna Coles
But they're not looking for your endorsement. They're not looking for your endorsement. And your endorsement matters. It's of enormous value.
- [32:41]
Maura Healey
Yeah, well, I'm not sure about that, but I think the point about we want to be encouraging new voices. We also want experience, though. You know, we want people. You know, I'll take experience over people who get in and don't know what the hell they're doing. Cause we've seen some very destructive forces come into politics. I look at, you know, some of what we've seen from the Republican class in Congress the last couple of terms. I mean, it's not been good. So, you know, I also want people who know what they're doing, who are in it for the right reason. I don't care how old you are, you gotta be in it for the right reason. This is supposed to be about public service. This is supposed to be about showing up every day and doing your darndest to work together with others to deliver for Americans and people on what they care about, on what they need. And I can tell you, if I go out on the street here in Massachusetts and I'm polling, people don't much care about who's doing what in Congress or who's up in one race or whose endorsement. No, what they want to know is, are you working for me? Are you growing jobs? Are you taking care of my family and ensuring that my kid is going to get educated, that I'm going to have access to health care, and that we're creating a state that is steady and secure and that is about building forward for the future. I mean, that's what people care about.
- [34:09]
Joanna Coles
So you mentioned that. You mentioned Zoran Mamdani, Mayor of New York, Mikey Sherrill in New Jersey, Abigail Spamberger in Virginia. Which group ends up winning? The brand of the Democratic Party as we go into the midterms?
- [34:28]
Maura Healey
You know, I don't think there's one particular brand except the brand of getting things done for people, you know, delivering. All of us say the same thing. It's about getting stuff done or getting done. That's what I see in the group of Democrats who've been winning. People who are, you know, when I think about the governors, when I think about, you know, others who I've served with, for all of us who are serving, it's about getting things done. I think that's going to be important. I think you've got to demonstrate that you're a real person, that you were, you know, who you. Who you say you are, and that you are in it for them. I mean, that's what it's about. And I think that's going to carry the day. And Certainly, you know, being in it for them. Right now, the central issue is affordability. Affordability, you know, and making life easier and more affordable for people, for your constituents. I think that's what the races were about. And also a repudiation of Trump because he's doing things, whether it's tariffs or taking away health care or taking away food, driving up costs. It was a repudiation of that. I also think it was a repudiation of a president and a federal administration that knows no bounds and is doing things that have been never contemplated before in terms of an anti Democratic small D prerogative. That was what was going on as well.
- [36:04]
Joanna Coles
So one of the things that we hear, and one of the things I hear is that people don't feel the Democratic Party has a national leader. Now, I get we're in the run up to the midterms, but it does feel like. And you've referenced the high quality of governors at the moment, that governors are, A, becoming more prominent and B, clearly beginning to throw their hat in the ring for 2028. Do you have a favorite candidate?
- [36:30]
Maura Healey
No. No. And I don't even. I don't. I'm somebody. I just. I don't even like those discussions. I understand why people do it. It's a fascination among the media and among the donor class and what have you. But if people are so focused on that, they're going to miss the now. And what needs to happen, I think that we should know. What I would want to communicate is that the Democratic Party, we have leaders in the Democratic Party. I serve with many, I've worked with many incredibly talented who know how to lead, who know how to bring people together, who know how to move with a common purpose and a mission and get things done, who understand the assignment, who understand the responsibility. And I think you'll see more voices and more people emerge. We've got to focus on this fall, though. We need to protect the elections. We need safe and secure elections. And we need to understand that Donald Trump, particularly, because I don't think he's going to do anything to make life more affordable for people, he's gonna continue to engage in things that seem more desperate, that are more outlandish, that are more out there as we move closer to November. And we need to be prepared for what he's gonna try to do to take the election. We need to also continue to focus on affordability and what we are actually delivering. I'll give you an example, Joanna. I can't wait for energy independence. I've Gotta find a way, just as I did with vaccines. We organized other states into our own sort of CDC public health consortium. I've been working to work with other states to organize how we're going to source more energy into the Northeast. I've signed agreements with Canadian provinces on energy deals. Because we just have to do what we can right now when we have a federal government that is not doing its job and is doing things that are harmful to our economies within our states and the American economy.
- [38:21]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so can we just talk about the election for a second? I mean, Donald Trump raised the possibility of federalizing the election. As a governor, what can you do to ensure that the election 2026 will be fair and voters will feel protected when they go to the polls?
- [38:42]
Maura Healey
Well, as you know, the way it is supposed to work is that it is your state and local officials that run elections. They set the rules for elections. They govern elections. They sort the ballots and issue the results. It's state and local officials. Of course, with Donald Trump, he doesn't want it to work that way. And so that's what he means by federalizing. The reason he went into Fulton county, of course, and I don't know how he got a judge. I think it turns out we've learned that there was false information offered for purposes of securing that indictment. But.
- [39:14]
Joanna Coles
Oh, really?
- [39:15]
Maura Healey
The idea is he wants to create this specter of fraud that there was some sort of problem or frailty in the system, and then that gives him authority to exercise emergency powers and go in and take over elections. He's had guard on, National Guard on the street. He's had military on the street. I think all trying to. Cause he's Donald Trump. He pushes, pushes, pushes. Right.
- [39:37]
Joanna Coles
And you heard that in the State of the Union speech last night, too. His sort of whole thing that the Democrats cheat, they cheat, they cheat all
- [39:45]
Maura Healey
to sort of sow these seeds, to provide some justification for him to exercise emergency powers, put troops on the streets to scare people away. I mean, I think that what we have to anticipate is not only will we see ice, we'll see every federal agency set out around ballot polling places to scare people away. I think it's important that we talk about it now and that we make sure that we are training local officials, local law enforcement and community members on what might happen and what their rights are. I think it's important that we talk about what is actually being attempted right now by the Trump administration and that we have in place what we need to have in place to protect people's. Rights. I have confidence in state and local officials to do just that. But I don't think we should underestimate the link set the president and the administration will go to come November.
- [40:50]
Joanna Coles
And where do you have that conversation if you're trying to reach voters who may be feeling anxious about coming out to the polls? How do you reach them? How do you have that conversation?
- [41:00]
Maura Healey
I'm talking to you now about it. You know, I talk about it wherever I go, that this is a possibility. And, you know, here's what we're doing and we have, we have rights and protections in place and we're going to protect your vote. And it's important. This is your right to go vote and it's going to be protected. And, you know, we just need to continue to message about that. And also, I think it's very important that attorneys general and others litigate right now when he's doing things that are illegal. They've been. Look, as attorney general back in, Trump won. We took him to court a bunch, won a lot of cases. The AGs are continuing to take him to court for things that his administration is doing that are illegal and unlawful. And a lot of those suits have been successful. So we need to fight on that front as well.
- [41:48]
Joanna Coles
You're the first female governor of Massachusetts. You're the first gay governor of Massachusetts. And yet yesterday in Donald Trump's State of the Union speech, he talks joyously about having gotten rid of dei. What was your reaction to that?
- [42:10]
Maura Healey
It's more of the same. I mean, this has been the dog whistle, along with the xenophobic, racist, anti immigrant mass deportation agenda that he's led. Look, I'm not gonna change who I am. I come to this. I was, I'm the oldest of five. I was raised by a single mom who was a school nurse and, you know, taught us all the values of working hard, of looking out for others. I am fortunate to be in this position. I feel privileged to be in this position, Joanna, as a governor in this moment with an opportunity for some agency to do some things, to help people, to lead with others, a way forward. But I also was a Division 1 athlete and I know the importance of Things like Title 9 and anti discrimination laws and civil rights protections. And what that has done over time is actually made it possible for people like me to serve. And, you know, I think we should be supportive of efforts to expand our access to the talent pool in this country, not narrow it to a group of white men, which, you know, seems to be the agenda of The Trump administration. When you look at the websites and the whitewashing of agency websites and the removal of women and people of color from the federal agencies, the posters that we see advertising right now out of the Trump administration, it's clear what they're trying to promote and do. But we gotta remember that we are stronger as a nation because we lean into the talents and the abilities of all people, and we should be supporting the talents and abilities of. Of all people, including women and people of color in this country. And, you know, I certainly feel a responsibility to live that every day. You know, I'm grateful to not only be in this role, but just in my personal life, I mean, with my partner Joanna and her kids and family, and just try to, you know, we're a normal family and out there living our lives. And I can tell you, in Massachusetts, people's rights are going to be protected. I think one of the first cases I argued, I was a business litigator for many years. Then I made this move. I became head of the Civil Rights Division in the Massachusetts Attorney General's office. And one of the first cases I brought, I actually sued President Obama, but it was for the Defense of Marriage act, doma, which was a law that blocked legal protections for same sex married couples. And we had same sex married couples in Massachusetts because that was another Massachusetts first. And we won that case and went up to the Supreme Court. But it's about respect. I think that's something that a lot of Americans get behind and understand. People just want to be respected for who they are, and that's why it's so upsetting to see the rhetoric around this from the president.
- [45:08]
Joanna Coles
Do you worry about the future of gay marriage in the states?
- [45:12]
Maura Healey
No. Maybe I shouldn't be so quick on that. But first of all, I'm not constitutionally capable of imagining a scenario where that right, that protection goes away. That said, I am mindful that every day, whether it's LGBTQ equality, whether it's racial equality, whether it's gender equality, there have been rollbacks and there have been setbacks perpetrated by this administration that we need to fight against and that we, you know, I'm not going to let us lose ground here in Massachusetts. I can tell you that. I'm proud that our state is. We got the number one schools, number one education in the country. We're number one in healthcare. We're number one in innovation. We've also been ranked the best state to live. If you have a baby, if you're a woman, if you Want to raise a family. These are all good things. So I'm going to continue to lean into what got us here and make sure we do that. And I also know that I fundamentally believe in the good of the American people. People get this. And so I think that we've just got to continue to be strong in the face of what really is terrible efforts to take us backwards.
- [46:34]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so the next time you go down to Washington, the government, and by
- [46:38]
Maura Healey
the way, just on the marriage equality, it's states. States give out marriage licenses. The federal government doesn't. We get to decide who's married in our state.
- [46:48]
Joanna Coles
Okay, well, that's reassuring to know the next time you go down to Washington, the government buildings will all have an enormous banner of President Trump's face on them. What do you think of that?
- [47:07]
Maura Healey
It's just theater. It is what Donald Trump is. It is what this administration is about. He doesn't give a damn about American people. He's helping himself, he's helping his family, he's helping a few of his very, very wealthy friends. That's it. He doesn't give a damn about people, which is why he's got his image on these buildings, why he's got his name on these buildings. You know, whatever. He can have that maniacal ego chip. We've built 100,000 homes or started 100,000 homes in just three years. That's what people want to see. Are prices down all the way yet? No, but we're working on that. And I think we need to continue to focus on the things that people need, driving down costs, economic growth, job growth, opportunity growth. You know, for people in our states, that's what people want us to focus on.
- [48:00]
Joanna Coles
I know that you are a professional basket player. I also know that you're 5 foot 4. So I imagine that you just have all sorts of extra tricks up your sleeve as a player. Are you going to run for 20, 28 as a presidential candidate?
- [48:19]
Maura Healey
I'm governor and that's what I'm focused on. And again, to my earlier point, not to be rude, but I don't think talk of 28 is productive. I think we need to focus on the right now. And that's what I'm trying to do. And obviously you point out, yes, I was a basket player, I was a basketball player, and I'm 5 4, so that makes me a point guard. Point guards tend to be the bossy ones. They like to run the show. They're sort of the quarterback of the team. But I also say, you know, for a Point guard. The greatest statistic is an assist. It's not the point scored. It's actually the assist setting somebody else up.
- [48:56]
Joanna Coles
So, Vice President, then. That's what I'm hearing. Vice President.
- [49:01]
Maura Healey
But my point is, you know, leadership is about making teams work and working together and working in partnership and working, you know, with a common purpose for a common good. And I think Americans understand that. I think that that's what we've been about as a country for the better part of 250 years. We've got a president and a federal administration that is trying, as damned as it seems, to take us off track. But we just got to be strong and resolute in who we are. And I say that here in the midst of our 250th year. And I remember and we learn in the history books about what people fought and died for, the blood they shed. When I go to no Kings rallies, you know, it's an interesting to me observation, the number of Vietnam vets who are at those rallies, many Republican, many independent, maybe some not politically engaged before. But they know, See, people know. People know in their gut what's right and what's wrong. We can disagree as we should in a democracy on any number of things, but there's a right and there's a wrong, you know, And I believe that there are enough people who understand the right and who understand that there's something terribly wrong going on over here.
- [50:18]
Joanna Coles
Why do you think they didn't understand that at the last election?
- [50:26]
Maura Healey
You know, a lot's been talked about here. A lot has been written about, analyzed. I think that over the last several years, I think the growing wealth disparity and income inequality has really played into it. And it's not just a theory. I mean, the actual economic circumstance of people being that for the first time, your kid is not gonna have a better economic circumstance than what you had. And I think for the course of history, we've always one of the next generation that follows to have that better opportunity, that better experience. And, you know, I think too many people, it hasn't been working for them. It hasn't been working for them. And that's what this whole affordability discussion is about. I mean, the chickens have come home to roost here, right? That's what happened, it seems to me. And, you know, and you have the master marketer, right? I mean, and Donald Trump, he just says a bunch of stuff, I think, as he did last night. But I think more and more people are seeing that, what he said, it's not real. It's not meaningful measures. It's not real affordability. It's not actually delivering for people.
- [51:47]
Joanna Coles
But Governor, didn't people know that from Trump won and they still voted for him? I mean, I'm very struck by your point that the Democrats don't need a national leader, that people should focus on what's working in their communities. And I understand that, and I do buy that. And yet I am still flabbergasted by the idea that people voted for him a second time, knowing the chaotic administration that he wrought the first time.
- [52:17]
Maura Healey
And let me say about the leaders.
- [52:19]
Joanna Coles
Can I just clarify the leaders. I just want to make the point that you said earlier that he surrounded himself with unserious people. We knew he was going to do that. We saw him bring on RFK Jr. And say, oh, he's going to be my health minister. So the bit I'm really struggling to understand, yes, things aren't working. Why would they think Donald Trump would make them work?
- [52:46]
Maura Healey
Well, I think right now what's important is that we be offering something, that we'd be offering solutions. That's what I'm trying to do every day. The conversation about a national leader in 28. The point I'm trying to make is that I think we have a whole team of national leaders in the Democratic Party from different places, from different regions, different personalities. But everybody's got to bring to bear all they've got in terms of talent and focus on the American people from where they are. And it's a little different from different places and from different individuals. But my point is, if you look at this team and this party, there are leaders across the board. The fact that I'm able to say now, three years later, we got 100,000 homes in the pipeline, that gives people confidence that government is working for them. When he takes vaccines away and I bring them back. And everybody's got a prescription that gives people confidence in a government leader when he takes away funding for science and research. And I say, no, not in Massachusetts. We're going to make investments in science and research, by the way, we're going to make sure that your kid is going to get whatever education they want. They want great vocational training. They want training for college and preparation for college. They want training for a career or technical position, they're going to get it in Massachusetts. People are like, oh, yeah, okay, great. You know, so it matters. It matters that the actions that we take every single day and the ways that we show up for people, that builds people's belief in government, they see government working for them. So while we've got to point out all the things that he's talked about that he hasn't delivered on. And also, I think this is really important because people are hurting across the country. What's important for us to do is to make sure that people understand that the action he took is why you're experiencing this and why you're feeling it and why you're worse off. We need to do that, but we also need to continue to offer the solutions and to show that we can deliver for people in our states.
- [54:54]
Joanna Coles
Okay. Governor Healey, thank you very much for your time. Very interested to see how things roll out in Massachusetts. I think the Ed Markey primary is not until September, so you've got plenty of time to weigh up your endorsement.
- [55:12]
Maura Healey
No, and I will say this. You know, we got hammered with the blizzard, of course, here in the Northeast. So I'm sorry not to be with you in studio, but I look forward to having a chat someday in person.
- [55:24]
Joanna Coles
Good. Me too. Me too. Thank you very much. Really interesting to hear from you. And yeah, I can only imagine you on the basketball court. Devastating. Devastating.
- [55:34]
Maura Healey
Now, now you take good care.
- [55:36]
Joanna Coles
Okay, thank you very much. So there you have it. A 5 foot 4 point guard and basketball player who's now governor of the state that everybody is watching for. The future of the Democratic Party. Will it have generational change or will it stick with its senior inexperience and years? Senators. Anyway, we'll be talking to the governor again if you have been. Thank you for joining us. Us. Don't forget to leave us a comment telling us what you think about what the governor said on YouTube. Don't forget to sign up to the Daily Beast where we will bring you minute by minute updates on the crazy that's going on out there. And of course, don't forget, as our first lady, the movie star. First lady. Yeah, right. Would have us be beast. There's so much, much to scream about. So welcome to Primal Scream, my new substack where we stop pretending this moment is about policy, papers or reason, debate, and call it what it is. A daily parade of gross human appetites. Lust, greed, envy, ambition, pride, betrayal and wrath. The seven deadly sins never went away. They just got better branding. I'll be proud. Prizing open the motivations driving Trump era chaos and everything orbiting it. The billionaires, the beauty myths, the backroom deals, the scandals, the status games, the reinventions and the downfalls. Politics as theatre, celebrity as currency, wellness as religion and power as the only real language in the room. Head to the link in the description box and sign up before the launch. Just go to Beast Pub Scream. That's Beast Pub Scream. The first screams are coming. So the good news is we have so many Beebeast Tier members now there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team. Devon Rogerino, Ryan Murray. Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, Neil Rosenhaus.